Results 11 to 20 of 46
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10-31-2007 #11Originally Posted by hippifried
Originally Posted by hippifried
Originally Posted by hippifried
Originally Posted by hippifried
• Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
• Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
• With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.
• On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.
• Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.
• If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.
• Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.
• Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.
• The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.
• The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.
• The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.
-Quinn
Life is essentially one long Benny Hill skit punctuated by the occasional Anne Frank moment.
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10-31-2007 #12
Got a source for that paste? I'm betting on F.A.I.R.U.S. or Lou Dobbs.
Sorry. Not buying the doom & gloom.
I'm also not buying the "heavy use of most social services". Have you ever tried to use any of those services? Any clue how many hoops you have to jump through or how many documents you have to supply? The whole complaint against these people is that they're undocumented. If they can get all that shit, they can get good jobs with benefits. Join unions & whatnot. The only way to collect government benefits is in the name of their children who have documents because they were born here. They aren't immigrants at all, legal or illegal. They're natural born US citizens. Your stats are based on who the head of household is.
That's the problem with these kinds of stats that look for proof of a conjecture. You can make them say anything you want with nothing more than directional focus. Like I said. A dearth of factual information.
There are liars & there are damned liars.
Then there are statisticians!
---Mark Twain (over a century ago, & nothing's changed)
Look at the stats you've provided. A total of $10 billion in cost-benefit differential over the course of a year. What is that? 2 weeks in Iraq? Cook the books all you like, but the resulting question is still the same: "So what?"
Property taxes are the bulk of school funding. Everybody with a roof over their head pays them, regardless of status. We insist, as a matter of law, that all children living within the jurisdiction be educated. It's not an immigration issue.
Medicaid payments are mostly reimbursements for emergency room care because these people can't get medicaid for general care. You could cut that cost in half by putting them on the program so they could see a doctor periodically. Lots of people are in the same boat. When you check the per-capita stats, you find that the percentage they draw closely corresponds to their percentage of the general population. Within a point. It's not an immigration issue.
Don't kid yourself about the education or skill levels of these folks. Mexico's biggest problem right now is the brain drain. Status has everything to do with what kind of job you can get, especially if there's a language issue. We're loaded with skilled Mexicans who can't work at their craft because of status. Diplomas don't mean much in the trades if you're good at what you do, but legal status keeps even the most educated people from rising above total anonymity. They take what they can get & hope their kids can have a future that wasn't available at all where they were.
If you want them to pay more taxes, get out of their way. It's just that simple. They're already paying property taxes & sales taxes even if they're completely off the books. If they have a number, they're paying income tax & social security that they probably won't collect. They don't get refunds either because they're afraid to file. Just more cutting off our collective nose to spite our face.
Anybody born on US soil is a US citizen. Period. Irrespective of their parentage. It wasn't "awarded". They ARE citizens just like any other born citizen. Of course they can access whatever programs are available. American born children shouldn't even figure into the discussion since they are neither immigrants, naturalized citizens, or Mexicans.
I won't even bother to address the dire predictions concerning amnesty. I heard all the same wailing in '86 & it didn't happen then either. It's all based on the stereotype of the illiterate Mexican chopping weeds in some field or scrubbing floors. They have schools down there too you know. I've lived in the southwest surrounded by Mexicans for the last half century & they can read & write.
Like I said: A dearth of factual information.
"You can pick your friends & you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends off on your saddle."
~ Kinky Friedman ~
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10-31-2007 #13
I'm hesitant to get much more involved in this discussion since it seems likely I will be attacked.
I am certainly not an economist, and if you would like to discuss credentials, we can do that in private , Quinn. Suffice it to say, I'm an intelligent and discerning gal, and I don't appreciate discussions that get too personal. So I will rather than use my own words, quote studies and articles by other "more qualified" sources, since obviously I'm just some dumb hooker.
First on the issue of taxes, hippifried pointed out that 26 billion is a pittance compared to the money being spent in Iraq, which it is. It represents oh, about 2% of the budget, and doesn't even compare to the corporate largess being handed out by the Bush administration.
Second, in 1986 Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act, which set penalties for employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers, causing many to purchase fake social security numbers. According to the New York Times the estimation is that 75% of undocumented workers pay into Social Security and Medicare through Payroll tax deductions, yet are completely ineligible to receive remuneration.[1] All those wages, which eventually cannot be matched, end up in the "Earnings Suspense File" which by now has "surpassed 189 billion in wage receipts, generating $6 to $7billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes, none of which can be claimed by the people who worked for it." According to a Time magazine article in 2002 that undocumented migrants have contributed up to 463 billion to Social Security[2]. "an analysis of the social security administration data by the national foundation for American Policy (A nonpartisan policy organization) finds that at current immigration levels, new immigrants entering the United States will provide a net benefit of $407 billion to the Social Security system over the next fifty years"[3]
Beyond all of the statistics and facts, there is a historical perspective on all this, that I tried to point out in my previous post, and was quickly denounced for. Over and over again, immigrant populations have been scapegoated for the US's economic woes. The racial component of this targeting has often resulted in violence, especially in California and the southwest. Rather than targeting the horrendous inequities in our society, and challenging the people who are robbing everyone blind, we focus our anger on the hardest working and least protected members of our society. And this is the road, I fear, to facism, much like it was in the 1930's. Not surprisingly, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center [4] the American South is seeing a resurgence of the Klu Klux Klan this time using immigration as a recruitment boon, along with several Neo Nazi organizations, and of course the minutemen.
Of course, it remains good business for those that stand to make the most money off of undocumented workers, to keep the public agitated about illegal immigration, because it has a tremendous effect on things like collective bargaining and workplace rights.
Like hippifried said, its a non issue that is used to distract people from the real pressing issues of our time/
[1] Eduardo Porter "Illegal Immigrants are bolstering social security with billions" New York Times, April 5,2005
[2] Lisa Takeuchi Cullen and Daren Fonda, "What it means for your wallet" Time Magazine, April 10, 2006
[3]quote from Mike Davis and Justin Akers Chacon "No one is illegal: fighting racism and state violence on the US border", statistics Takeuchi Cullen and Fonda, Time magazine.
[4] SPLC April 22, 2005, https://secure.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13
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10-31-2007 #14Originally Posted by hippifried
Originally Posted by Quinn
Originally Posted by hippifried
Originally Posted by hippifried
Originally Posted by hippifried
So far as "schools down there" are concerned, I lived in Mexico, so I’m familiar with them – and they’re appallingly bad. In 2004, the World Economic Forum ranked the quality of education in Mexico 74th out of 102 nations surveyed, just behind Cameroon. The average student abandons school at 14. Enough said.
Honestly, at this point, I don’t see the any reason to continue our discussion. Our approaches are just too different for us to establish any factually objective point of reference.
-Quinn
Life is essentially one long Benny Hill skit punctuated by the occasional Anne Frank moment.
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11-01-2007 #15Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security, these calculations would change.
As previously noted, this study is inline with studies from a range of reputable sources. Furthermore, while I definitely appreciate your efforts to cite a factually objective basis for your argument, I would prefer that you refrain from citing media sources. Though I don’t have any particular problem with those figures, many media organizations – the New York Times, for example – have a long history of cherry picking facts and studies to suit a narrow editorial agenda handed down from the top (not to mention the fact that we’re dealing with journalists, not economists or similarly qualified analysts). It’s for this reason that I have refrained from citing a range of media sources, including, but not limited to, NPR, CNN, and Fox News.
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Many native-born Americans observe that their ancestors came to America and did not place great demands on government services. Perhaps this is true, but the size and scope of government were dramatically smaller during the last great wave of immigration. Not just means-tested programs, but expenditures on everything from public schools to roads were only a fraction of what they are today. Thus, the arrival of unskilled immigrants in the past did not have the negative fiscal implications that it does today. Moreover, the American economy has changed profoundly since the last great wave of immigration, with education now the key determinant of economic success. The costs that unskilled immigrants impose simply reflect the nature of the modern American economy and welfare state. It is doubtful that the fiscal costs can be avoided if our immigration policies remain unchanged.
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Just to establish the factual basis of the above statement, I’ll include some testimony prepared for the House Judiciary Committee in May, 2007:
Harvard professor George Borjas, who is regarded as the nation's leading immigration economist, found in a study published in 2003 by the “Quarterly Journal of Economics” that between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent.
Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent. The 10 million native-born workers without a high school degree face the most competition from immigrants, as do the eight million younger natives with only a high school education and 12 million younger college graduates. The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.
-Quinn
Life is essentially one long Benny Hill skit punctuated by the occasional Anne Frank moment.
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11-01-2007 #16
Just to add my (very small) $0.02 to this discussion - I live in NY and I have had alot of discussions about what our dear Governor had proposed.
And legal/ethical issues aside, it still is a logistical nightmare to manage a licensure program for "undocumented aliens". Most banks/businesses, etc use a Driver's License as a legal form of identification, so therefore the applicant must provide that information to the DMV.
And I'm not sure how the DMV would handle such an "undocumented" licensure anyway - would it stamp "Undocumented Alien" on the license? If some kid came in with a Mexican Birth Certificate in someone else's name, would it still be valid? How would we know? Otherwise, it'll be an easy way for people to "game" the system and obtain an ID under false pretenses (wish I had that in college... lol).
In any case, many local DMV agencies upstate are run by County Clerks (in the place of the NY State DMV) - and they don't want to be saddled with handling these cases, too.
Anyhow, I can just imagine the popularity of such a program with the illegal immigrant population: Come to the DMV with your papers and prove to a Governmental agency that you're here illegally, and you can get a driver's license.
I'm sure that many wouldn't bother applying for this, as it can probably be percieved as a ready-made "come arrest me" invitation to the INS for those it's designed to "help".
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11-01-2007 #17Originally Posted by Quinn
If we are talking about people from the south moving here, why wouldn't we talk about NAFTA, The peso devaluation, US support for anti-democratic regimes in Central America (i.e. death squads), and resulting waves of immigration?
Why do we have to de-contextualize this so much so as to render all other contributing factors pointless?
I think the whole illegal immigration debacle, is a media generated problem, unless of course you happen to be Latino, in which case vigilante violence and gestapo tactics on the part of immigration authorities are a big problem.
Tax cuts in the billions and a crumbling infrastructure? Not a problem, not worth talking about. Hundreds of billions of dollars involved in Bush's mideast adventures, not a problem.
10 billion dollars to provide healthcare to citizens whose parents are undocumented? Its a crisis.
Originally Posted by tsmandyOriginally Posted by Quinn
And as long as we are talking about cherry picking facts, and dealing with bias, what makes you think the studies you cite are free from this? It is unavoidable that studies are designed to present someones point of view, and we could spend all our time challenging each others facts and sources, but I would hope we would limit this to obviously distorted and disproved facts as well as factoring in the basic corporatist agenda of the major media.
Originally Posted by tsmandyOriginally Posted by quinn
Originally Posted by quinn
Originally Posted by tsmandyOriginally Posted by quinn
I would rather dismantle NAFTA, withdraw from the WTO, support new fair elections in Mexico, break the IMF's stranglehold on thirld world economies, and lastly shift from an war based economy, to an economy that seeks to build a wealthier, healthier society. Seems more sensible than building a new Berlin wall that stretches from Brownsville to San Diego and hiring Blackwater to police it.
The alternative is an ever increasing supply of immiserated people, dislocated from their ancestral lands facing exploitation in European and American sweatshops, and politico's stirring up public anger against them whenever the spotlight shines too brightly on corruption and corporate greed.
So that's my take on things. Address the illness, not the symptom.
Back to drivers licenses and "illegal" immigrants.
I still maintain that having licensed and insured drivers is better for the public health and safety than not. Since you think it was moronic, what would you propose as an alternative?
What do you propose doing with the 12 million undocumented people in this country?
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11-02-2007 #18Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandy
The fact is that I can support my argument using sources ranging from Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government (a body that includes the nation’s leading immigration economist), to the National Research Council (the operative arm of the National Academy of Sciences, which includes more than 170 Nobel Prize winners among its membership), to the Council on Foreign Relations, to RAND – to name but a very few. These are among the most respected sources anywhere when it comes to this type of research and analysis.
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandy
1) Illegal immigrants will come here from the south (and other destinations) so long as this nation continues to be wealthier (on a per capita basis) and offer greater economic opportunities than their own respective nations.
2) We could control whether or not they are able to immigrate to this country with far greater effectiveness than we could ever hope to positively affect their internal economic development so as to provide equal opportunities to what they find here (we can’t begin to afford to do it for all of Latin America).
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by Quinn
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandy
Originally Posted by tsmandyOriginally Posted by tsmandyOriginally Posted by tsmandy
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/...sek.php?page=1
Forgive me if I haven't addressed all of your topic-related points. Today has been far busier than the last two days, leaving me less time than I would prefer to thoroughly address your argument.
-Quinn
Life is essentially one long Benny Hill skit punctuated by the occasional Anne Frank moment.
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11-02-2007 #19
- Join Date
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Originally Posted by corbomite
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11-02-2007 #20
- Join Date
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If you come into this country illegally you are a CRIMINAL and should be punished not rewarded. I am all for LEGAL immigration not criminal trespassing or the breaking and entering into my country.
"He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither' Benjamin franklin.