The term transsexual...why doesn't it apply to me?

[lust4ts]

You guys crack me up with this "hot TS" bit. Why does it always have to be a hot TS. Does this mean you give a pass to a girl who is not "hot"?

One wouldn't mind,but for the frequent loud noise from men who aren't GQ or Men's Fittness magazine model material, how most TS girls are only interested in the young, handsome bucks, and won't give an average Joe the time of day.

I've dated "hot" men, and I've dated "normal" run of the mill guys. And quite honestly I prefer average guys (ok, they have to be in shape as I work out lead a healthy lifestyle), than the male model types. Ever see what happens to a goodlooking guy when he goes into a club with his date? Right way you can see girls plotting to take that man from his gf. Ever see a goodlooking guy at a trannie bar? More likely than not his gf won't leave him even to go to the bathroom, because she KNOWS there are girls in that room plotting and scheming! *LOL*

My point is that there are lots f plain ordinary girls out there. Since they don't "work" they don't have the money and maybe not even the desire to go through all that is required to be "hot". I'm not saying they are woofs, just average looking like 98% of the girls walking around. Look beyond the hottness and you'll likely find something beautiful.

SS

Well what can I say, I like hot girls be they ts or not. Sorry if you got the wrong impression obviously just because someone is not hot does not make them less of a person, and I don't remember saying it does.

I go for girls who find hot, personality is great and very important but if I don't find someone physically attractive what is the point. I guess I define hot as what I find attractive. I am not going to feel guilty about saying I prefer pretty girls. Like I said that is just me and I am happy to admit it.

[Felicia Katt]

Everyone is so consumed by labels, by what makes a male a male, and a female, a female, and what it means to be attracted to one or the other or both. But ultimately, all of the things that we think of to divide male from female: hair and skin and body size and shape and breasts, are all secondary sexual characteristics, and as such, they differentiate but they don't define. For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

But Male is not man and female is not woman. Your anatomy is not your gender, which is much more of a psychological construct than a physical absolute. Genitals are not what makes a man a man, or woman, a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man, or exclude you from being a woman. Your gender is between your ears, not your legs.

Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes. Being gay or straight is more about who you are attracted to, and why, and how you interact with them, and how you interrelate to the rest of the world. Being "gay" is more of a social poltical identity than a sexual one, just as being straight is. If an open admitted gay guy becomes celibate, he is still gay. If he sleeps with women, I would argue he is still gay as well. A man who is attracted to a transgendered woman can be straight. but he can't technically claim to be wholly heterosexual.

The term transsexual is an unfortunate one, because unlike homo and heterosexual, being transsexual is not about sex, its about gender. If they would have started with the term transgendered at the outset, instead of it evolving slowly and fitfully into more common usage, there might be a lot less confusion and angst among the transgendered community.

Trans=cross though, so its not really accurate to label someone who is attracted to the transgendered a transsexual, because there is no cross sexual component. if you wanted to be painfully accurate, a trans-sexual would be someone who was attracted to someone of the opposite gender but who came accross as being of the same gender. A man and an FTM or a lesbian and MTF would be a trans-sexual relationships. But those are pretty few and far between, and we can never unring the bell as far as the terminology of transsexualism goes, so the term will continue to define gender and to confound how we deal with it.

I'm not sure what latin or scientific term would best define someone who is attracted to the transgendered. Nor am I sure there should be one. A case could be made for the term transphillic, but that may be too much like paraphillic, which is the clinical term for fetish and what is derogatorially referred to as perversions.

I think rather than trying to find a new label, or force a fit with the old ones, that you should love who you love, or lust for those who you lust for, and do so proudly, and openly and shrug off those who would try to define or confine you. Sexuality is nothing if not fluid, and too many people are swimming against its current instead of going with the flow.

FK

[whatsupwithat]

That was beautiful.

Now if only everyone thought of things as you do.

[whatislove]

I'll take that without the negative connotations. But we still have no positive defining term for MMFs.

MMFsexual? ha!

I liked transamorous!

[peggygee]

Sex After Post-Op

Much of the studies done on post-op transexuals do not offer much hope that the operation makes anyone more "happy" or at ease with themselves than before. In fact so much of the opposite was becoming known places like the Harry Benjamin Center, pioneers in TS work, stopped doing the operation.

If the stated medical goal of putting a TS through hormones, and various operations was for them to lead happy lives as "St8" women or men, then by a long shot, according to studies the process is a failure. Why?

A high percentage of post-op MTF's enter into lesbian realtionships. Studies vary as to the exact amount and weahter or not this attraction to women was there all the time, or weather such transgendered women cannot find a male "st8" partner. What is obvious is that the males in the transgender community by and large wish to have a pre-op transgendered person ,if any when it comes to a relationship/sex, and St* men seek GGs.

One group of post op TS's however do end up "happy"; and report the most "well adjusted"; and that is the group many in the TS community label "men in dresses". TS women who change later in life (usually after marrying and having children/reaching middle age), are happiest. Unlike some younger girls, their image is not tied into their looks and the scene/man chasing. They fully realise they may forever be called "a man" when walking down the street, but they do suffer from a profound unhappiness with their current gender, and are willing to accept the trade-offs for some peace of mind.

Oh, there is also the trannie "urban myth" that many post-ops go "crazy" because they no longer can have orgasms. While many post op girls do report having orgasms, including several I know; most of those same girls wouldn't tell me the sky was blue if the sun was out in daylight.

These are probably one of the greatest factors in many girls choosing to remain "non-op". You only have to look at the post op girls who switch from Eros Ts section to the GG section and what they go through to get an idea.

"WhatsUpWithDat"

A cool tall drink of water like yourself shouldn't worry (not that you are), about what people think. A girl (GG or TS) that lands a man such as yourself with a good outlook on life/things should be happy. May have to send my picture over to your MySpace site and apply for a postion should an opening come along! *LOL*

Bottom line is transgendered persons, and those that love them are going to have a bit longer hauling the heavy load. While gay male, in particular white gay male population and lesbians are making huge strides in terms of social acceptance (who ever thought you'd hear "his husband' uttered with such ease as one heard on the subway the other day, but there we are.

However will say I know of one or two transgendered women (pre-op) who are living quite happy lives here in NYC, with long term partners (male). One is a nurse and the other a social worker. Like many gay couples in NYC< they simply go about their business as if everything is normal, because to them it is, and that is what matters.

Think many transgendered girls, especially the young ones, take up residence in Pity Me Pines Apartments, and blame the world for forcing them into "working", and resenting the men they attract because they in fact don't like themselves. But guess what, this is 2007, not 1977 or even 1987; and it does warm my heart to see some young transgirls strolling around NYU's campus behaving exactly like young students should.

A long time ago, I decided I was not going to let what I was stand in my way of making the most of my life. Have I made mistakes? Sure, who hasn't in their lives, but just like those people who are born with a severe handicap or badly disabled later in life, you have two choices; you can get busy living or get busy dying. Someone doesn't like me because I am a TS. Fine, they don't pay my rent, and quite honestly aside from my family and a few close friends, I don't give a rat's butt what people "think" of me anyway. Just keep out of my way and don't even think of starting any trouble, and we'll get along fine. *LOL*

As for the men who date trannies: Well many of you need to pick a team. Can you imagine how it makes anyone feel; gay, straight, trannie, male or female when the only time you will see them is indoors and really only for sex? Worse to be ignored or cut in public by the same man who was on your trade the night before like a monkey on a cupcake. Like many transgendered girls I've had my share of winners. Calls at 1am in the morning from some guy who wants to come over because "I'm in your neighborhood", or finding out a guy you have been seeing is getting married/moving in with his GF: only to call you several weeks later to "come over and play". Heck I've had them call me on their first day back after the honeymoon, or even better while their wife is in labour having THEIR baby.

SS, I've just woken up, and I have done a cursory perusal of your post.

Would you be so kind as to provide cites for the studies that you have
alluded to, as I feel there are some erroneous conclusions and
statements.

I'm running late for work, but you may either PM me, or post them on the
forum.

Thanks......

[Shining Star]

Last time I read those books was at college,but will see what I can dig up either on the Internet, or when down by my alma mater see if can find the same books.

[Ecstatic]

Cogent and insightful as ever, Felicia. The crux of the matter is the difference between sex and gender, between physiological differentiation and social/psychological construct. If one bases one's definition of sexuality on a person's primary sexual manifestation (genitalia), then, with the exception of intersexuals, we do fall into the male/female modality. But gender is far more fluid and differently defined for each.

Trans=cross though, so its not really accurate to label someone who is attracted to the transgendered a transsexual, because there is no cross sexual component. if you wanted to be painfully accurate, a trans-sexual would be someone who was attracted to someone of the opposite gender but who came accross as being of the same gender. A man and an FTM or a lesbian and MTF would be a trans-sexual relationships. But those are pretty few and far between, and we can never unring the bell as far as the terminology of transsexualism goes, so the term will continue to define gender and to confound how we deal with it.

Yes, this gets back very succinctly to the points I made above regarding the terminology. I quite agree, it would have been better had we begun with transgender rather than transsexual, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure what latin or scientific term would best define someone who is attracted to the transgendered. Nor am I sure there should be one. A case could be made for the term transphillic, but that may be too much like paraphillic, which is the clinical term for fetish and what is derogatorially referred to as perversions.

I've tried transphillic on for size before, but never really liked the term, partly for the reason you give, and partly because it's too limiting, both as a descriptor of my inclinations and as regards the objects of my inclinations.

I think rather than trying to find a new label, or force a fit with the old ones, that you should love who you love, or lust for those who you lust for, and do so proudly, and openly and shrug off those who would try to define or confine you. Sexuality is nothing if not fluid, and too many people are swimming against its current instead of going with the flow.

FK

[BeardedOne]

I'm jumping into this convo in the middle (Something I'll stop doing as soon as the laptop is finished with its labotomy), so please bear with me.

I honestly don't understand an attraction strictly limited to TS girls.

I honestly don't understand an attraction strictly limited to GG girls. Or strictly limited to guys. I don't understand limiting ones sexual/sensual preference to any single gender/religion/politics/ethnicity/culture/species. Well...Maybe I'll let 'species' slide.

I define myself as bisexual, but with gender having been proven as more of a sliding scale than a binary fact, that definition is limiting.

So, it's just Jericho and I that feel the way we do?

No, I'm sure there are others, including myself. Yet, as far as I've read so far (Page 4) they may not have a voice for their feelings. I know that I have had moments when I have done edits and rewrites in my head a dozen times and another dozen at the keys and still not post.

I'm wondering if it is checmical or genetic in source, nature/nurture, or how many S & H Green Stamps you traded in at the Sexuality and Gender Definition store. Why are straights (In the greater percentage of the sampling) solely attracted to the opposite gender? Gays/lesbians to the same gender? What clicks for bisexuals? How izzit that Motherfucking Nature gave my intersexed lover tits and a vagina, but no uterus, a clit the size of a burly man's thumb, and the instinct to be a gay boi?

Eric, Ecstatic, and now Jericho have really driven home to me the lack of a positive term to describe men who like transwomen.

Eventually, the APA will tag it somehow, as they ultimately did with people like myself who tend to frequently be involved in relationships with homosexual people of the =opposite= gender: Transhomosexuals. In layman's terms, for me, that would be a "male lesbian" (Which more than a couple of my 3G lovers said to other people to explain why we were together). Yah, yah, I've heard the one about "You are what you eat".

But post operatively I have met a fair number of men that will only date transwomen, be they pre or post operative. For me this strikes me as very odd, and harkens back to what Seanchai said upthread about men who only date women who have a penis or once had a penis.

I must admit that men who only are interested in women who have a penis history give me pause for cause. I must admit that I question
whether their affinity is to the woman or to her previous or current
genitilia, ie. the penis.

Not knowing the individuals or their backstories, I can only hazard a guess here, and it is based on my own experience with a long train of GG relationships that invariably jumped the tracks and landed in the ditch. Women, as a species, are schizophrenic, game-playing psychos who lie about love and friendship as easily as I might say "I'm from the government and I promise not to put the check in your mouth!". That in mind, it is not unreasonable to assume that a woman who possesses (Or had a recent history of possessing) a dick =might= be sane or at least understanding of how a man operates.

Look up the Man Rules (If they haven't already been posted here on HA, they can't be far afield). We're not mind-readers. When we say "I love you", it is not neccesary to grill us about it. If you ask dumbshit questions like "Does this dress make me look fat?", be prepared for the answer!

Maybe, just maybe, T-gurls have a handle on this shit and so are the preferred interest when it comes to dating and relationships for some of us lowly men.

As for me, I =like= the penis. I have one of my very own, and we're quite close. I especially enjoy sharing them.

i have tried to 'deprogram' myself. i went the gay route, the straight route...it never, as jericho said, *felt* right.

I had a gay "phase" (Yes, Virginia, they really do occur) when I was in my late teens/early twenties. The pic I posted to the Show Your Ass competition was taken in that time frame (And yes, that really, really, really is my sweet ass...Or at least the sweet ass I possessed back then). Yet, it never satisfied, especially as the gay culture at the time had not even imagined the concept of 'relationship'. On the flip side of the sexuality coin, my relationships with women were always lacking that little 'extra' that we now refer to as 'T-clit'.

Labels might be wrong but a term is necessery to avoid any confusion.

I often refer to my 'ex', but I have never been married. "Ex" is a multi-tiered term that saves a lot of explaining in conversation.

For me what attracts me to a person is their personality,
intelligence, integrity, sense of humor, etc.

Likewise, but there are still random qualifiers that tweak some people's interests and desires. A straight guy might meet a witty, etchical, intelligent queer with a great sense of humor, but he ain't gonna blow him.

Pansexual (pan = all) doesn't fit any better than bisexual unless one is attracted to all variants. Likewise omnisexual.

Until a better tag arrives on the scene, pan/omni seems to work for me. I've been there/done that with all varieties and have yet to drown in guilt over any of my encounters/relationships.

But I don't quite agree with your followup statement (for myself, obviously), as what is between their legs is indeed relevant. It's merely one of several relevant factors, but it's far from irrelevant.

I've never been shady about the fact that I like dick. A gurl with a dick is a major bonus for me. Dick is good. All hail the dick! Yet I don't let that desire or preference rule who/which gender I seek out. There are at least a couple of gurls here on HA that have met me in person and, I think, would tell you that I wasn't =ALL= about the dick.

Ass is good, too.

I do believe, as many have stated, that most of the men are in it for the fetish.

Truth be told, I think I am here for the fetish aspect as a primary draw. That does not neccesarily doom me to being a "chaser", per se. I like to think that I am a bit more open and deeper than that (But only the gurls can make judgement on that).

The whole nature of the T culture challenges and persecutes us. We are gay because we like dick. We are perverts because we like women with dicks. We are social pariahs because our dream dates charge for us to touch them.

Life, and especially people, sucks. Work around it as best you can.

Why is there a negative connotation (tranny chaser) attached to only one of those terms? All the rest are free to be themselves without judgement?

Because we are FAB (Fucked At Birth). Here's a drink chit, go get a beer.

MMFsexual?

I think I'll have that put on a button.

I am almost of the mind that it's hormonal in some way. My physical makeup is at play here. What I keep trying to impress and keeps being missed is that this is deeply internal.

See my comments above re: Chemical

Thanks, otto. Much appreciated. i think we should start a website of some kind where guys like us can establish ourselves and build a community, get a voice. Maybe then we'll be taken seriously.

Or maybe we already have one here...

There are other forums that are not so porn-centric as this one and there are also programs that will allow you to set up your own niche. If you choose the latter, invite me!

Many, many wise, but misspelled words by Luna

Izzat you, Luna? =The= Luna? So good to see you here.

Re; Your comment of penis/vagina rather than male/female in medical terms. My intersexed friend frequently said "The doctors always get it wrong" as far as gender decisions at birth.

We are too hung up on genitalia, imho.

E...Did you say that for real?

Well, of course, there are times when I rather enjoy being hung up on genitalia....

Never mind, question answered.

Christ! I'm only up to Page 8 so far.

[Mr_Man]

...

[andyuk]

Everyone is so consumed by labels, by what makes a male a male, and a female, a female, and what it means to be attracted to one or the other or both. But ultimately, all of the things that we think of to divide male from female: hair and skin and body size and shape and breasts, are all secondary sexual characteristics, and as such, they differentiate but they don't define. For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

But Male is not man and female is not woman. Your anatomy is not your gender, which is much more of a psychological construct than a physical absolute. Genitals are not what makes a man a man, or woman, a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man, or exclude you from being a woman. Your gender is between your ears, not your legs.

Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes. Being gay or straight is more about who you are attracted to, and why, and how you interact with them, and how you interrelate to the rest of the world. Being "gay" is more of a social poltical identity than a sexual one, just as being straight is. If an open admitted gay guy becomes celibate, he is still gay. If he sleeps with women, I would argue he is still gay as well. A man who is attracted to a transgendered woman can be straight. but he can't technically claim to be wholly heterosexual.

The term transsexual is an unfortunate one, because unlike homo and heterosexual, being transsexual is not about sex, its about gender. If they would have started with the term transgendered at the outset, instead of it evolving slowly and fitfully into more common usage, there might be a lot less confusion and angst among the transgendered community.

Trans=cross though, so its not really accurate to label someone who is attracted to the transgendered a transsexual, because there is no cross sexual component. if you wanted to be painfully accurate, a trans-sexual would be someone who was attracted to someone of the opposite gender but who came accross as being of the same gender. A man and an FTM or a lesbian and MTF would be a trans-sexual relationships. But those are pretty few and far between, and we can never unring the bell as far as the terminology of transsexualism goes, so the term will continue to define gender and to confound how we deal with it.

I'm not sure what latin or scientific term would best define someone who is attracted to the transgendered. Nor am I sure there should be one. A case could be made for the term transphillic, but that may be too much like paraphillic, which is the clinical term for fetish and what is derogatorially referred to as perversions.

I think rather than trying to find a new label, or force a fit with the old ones, that you should love who you love, or lust for those who you lust for, and do so proudly, and openly and shrug off those who would try to define or confine you. Sexuality is nothing if not fluid, and too many people are swimming against its current instead of going with the flow.

FK

fantastic post.