Why not have a third gender? Neither Man nor Woman.

[BrendaQG]

This is for the girls here.

I am not going to write a long essay on why to not have a third gender. I think it would be a positive step forward if there were such a cultural and legal third gender in European and American society.

Cultures that have such an institution are all relatively accpting of transsexuals. (you know the usual cultures, Native Americans, Thailand etc.)

Personally I would have no problem with this myself if the results were more practical rights. Beeing seen as legally exactly like a GG is of minor importance to me. For in my mind I am not and never will be exactly like a GG. I was never quite male or female and even when post op still will not be quite exactly female. Given only two choices I choose female, but if there were a third I would go for it.

What do the rest of you think?

[TrueBeauty TS]

He, She or It? No thanks. The more you segregate yourself, the easier it is for them to make you sit in the back of the bus.



I'm a woman, thank you. A transsexual woman, but still a woman.



.

[peggygee]

First, before all 'the guys' come on bombarding this thread, it's
primarily for the women as Brenda has stated. So if you don't
wear panties, have tits, and or are on HRT, you may not be able
to render an informed opinion.

Second, my response below is part of an edited post from a a thread
on another forum, a routers hop away.

You din't think I write a new thesis for all my responses did you, I'd
end up with carpal.



Having said that:

What I did want to introduce to the conversation are my thoughts on the
binary aspects of gender:

Admiittedly I'm somewhat old school in some of my beliefs. I transitioned
in a much different era. As such, 'for me' I have adopted the contemporary
binary definitions of gender. I worked very hard hormonally, surgically, and
legally to assimilate into society's definition of female.

Yet I am not so rigid in my thoughts that I can't concede that there may
be those that identify as a third sex. I can fully understand that, and see
it as a perfectly valid gender choice.

However there are many transsexuals who are quite adamant in their desire
to be designated female. I don't want to say that those who have GRS
must be accorded that designation, and those that haven't should not be,
as I feel that is divisive and would not be equitable.

While the debate on when a transwoman should be deemed female is an
ongoing one: Is it after she has begun her transition, or had an
orchiechtomy, or must she have had the total gender reassignment surgery.
These are questions that plague us within in the transcommunity and in
society at large.

But for me:

I am a woman.

I am a Black woman.

I am a post operative transwoman.

But I am not now, never have been, nor ever will be a shemale, he-she,
shim, chick with a @%$@, etc, or a member of a third sex.
__________________

[mbf]

This is for the girls here.

I am not going to write a long essay on why to not have a third gender. I think it would be a positive step forward if there were such a cultural and legal third gender in European and American society.

Cultures that have such an institution are all relatively accpting of transsexuals. (you know the usual cultures, Native Americans, Thailand etc.)

I do wonder if this lesser acceptance of transsexuals in European and American society you mention above has got anything to to with that culture beeing predominantly monotheistic/manichean ????

[BrendaQG]

He, She or It? No thanks. The more you segregate yourself, the easier it is for them to make you sit in the back of the bus.



I'm a woman, thank you. A transsexual woman, but still a woman.



.

I am a woman too. I feel that given the choices that is the one that fits me best.

What I am not talking about is being called an "it" as you so crasy put it. In Thailand they call us "second type of woman" or "woman of the second type". That is more of what I have in mind. We could have the rights of a man or woman (MTF or FTM) and we could get these in such a way that would not discriminate against anyone because of surgical status or anything else so arbitrary (Why not discriminate against transsexuals who will never pass? That would be abhorent, horrible thing to do. So why give such hell to the non-op's? Who often express their outward feminity so effectively that SRS seems superfluous to them.)

[TrueBeauty TS]

I am a woman too. I feel that given the choices that is the one that fits me best.

What I am not talking about is being called an "it" as you so crasy put it. In Thailand they call us "second type of woman" or "woman of the second type". That is more of what I have in mind. We could have the rights of a man or woman (MTF or FTM) and we could get these in such a way that would not discriminate against anyone because of surgical status or anything else so arbitrary (Why not discriminate against transsexuals who will never pass? That would be abhorent, horrible thing to do. So why give such hell to the non-op's? Who often express their outward feminity so effectively that SRS seems superfluous to them.)

You missed my point. Bottom line is, I don't care to be called anything other than a woman. I'm not interested in being called The Third Sex, Ladyboy, Shemale, Second Type Woman, Third Type Woman, 124th Type Woman, etc.


When you single yourself out more in society, it's easier for them to think of you not as a person, not as one of them, but as something strange, maybe something less than human, or scary and different. Or just an "it".


Now of course, there ARE times when you have to make distinctions - as everyone has to do - when the need arises. For example, medical issues. I WILL tell my doctor I am a TS because that could possibly impact my medical treatment.


Now if you are only talking about legal definitions, then that is something else altogether. We can't expect our government to come up with a definition of what a woman is if the TS "community" can't either. I don't even know if I want to try.


But out in the real world, I'll stick to being a normal woman in society. I enjoy being with my straight friends and my gay friends. I make no distinctions when I interact with them, think of them, or talk with them. And they treat me the same way.


.

[BrendaQG]

Ah I see. That works for you.

What if I were to say that you speak from your position as a passable postop (?) TS?

Consider what it is like for those who are not both of those things.

If your apperance would tell that you were a transsexual or even "just a man in a dress". If your papers would reveal that you had not had SRS. As it does even for those who are post-op but in a state where their BC cannot be amended? These are all rhetorical questions. Things I considered when I decidded that a third gender would be to more people's benefit than my own. For in fact I do not tell that I am a TS, and nobody knows. I would defend your right not to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry. (I doubt they would ask to see your papers before wanting your number.)

[SarahG]

When you single yourself out more in society, it's easier for them to think of you not as a person, not as one of them, but as something strange,

Exactly.

It would be a never ending expierence of being outted everytime one uses a public bathroom, has to show ID, etc.... even if things were more.... tolerant (acceptance & tolerance are two vastly different things) in this country/society, some people may not want to advertise that status about themselves. It boils down to a privacy issue.

Would everyone in the community be willing to say, wear a tshirt that stated that they are trans on it in big, bold lettering? I certainly doubt it. Its kinda like that in a sense.

So here is a question to pose for you all: Why does our legal system designate/document sex status of its citizens? Because that distinction translates into differences in how the system will interact with any given person. By having a third sex classification system, by definition, we wouldn't be able to be treated identically to GGs in how the system interacts with us.

Now, what the "third sex" proposal is, isn't a system of three sexes at all... remember there are ftm's in this world. Does it really sound like a logical idea to have our legal system designate people based on 4 sexes? Or more perhaps?

Having MtFs and FtMs use the same bathrooms, lockerrooms, public showers and prisons merely because we're both trans doesn't make any more OR less sense than having GGs and GBs to do the same.

Obviously having all trans people using the same facilities merely because they are trans is is problematic: if GGs and GBs are to use the same bathrooms, lockerrooms, public showers etc than what would be the point in separting us from nontrans people in the first place? Either these differences matter to the system, OR they don't. And if they don't... care to explain how well it would work to have both GGs and GBs in the same prison buildings?

[peggygee]

When you single yourself out more in society, it's easier for them to think of you not as a person, not as one of them, but as something strange,

Exactly.

It would be a never ending expierence of being outted everytime one uses a public bathroom, has to show ID, etc.... even if things were more.... tolerant (acceptance & tolerance are two vastly different things) in this country/society, some people may not want to advertise that status about themselves. It boils down to a privacy issue.

.....

This is an incredibly complex issue, and thank you Brenda for bringing it to
the fore. And Sarah you have made some compelling points as well. Even
for those woman who are comfortable identifying as a third sex, I'm not
sure that they would want to share that information everytime they buy
a pack of cigarettes or cash a check.

And True I agree we can't allow ourselves to be seperated, or segregated,
we all sink or swim together.

Thailand, parts of Latin America, and parts of the European Union are
putting F on the identification papers of transwomen, operation or not.
So I see the solution is for the US government to change it's antiquated
gender labeling, catch up with the rest of the world, not for us to bend to
their mandates.

What is really great about having this discussion in the transcommuity is
that the powers to be in this country are equally perplexed about what to
do. That we are having this discourse will allow us to impact upon the
ultimate decisions.

[Rod la Rod]

The answer is TOLERANCE AND ACCEPTANCE. Hyper religiosity has taken a terrible toll on the USA particularly in the last several years with the G.W. Bush Crusades.

American popular culture, exaggerated definitions of male and female are more extreme and unrealistic than ever, completely inaccurate and absurd.

Other cultures including Latin America, Asia, Europe, and even Islamic countries have a much more practical and tolerant view of the natural variation in Gender and human sexuality.

Not every person fits into the narrow definition of what is male and female
according to the extreme American commercialized concept of gender.

What is most important is that every individual has the same rights under the law regardless of gender.