NEWS: Scottsdale bar sued by transgendered patron

[LG]

Discrimination surprised bar patron
Nightclub owner had singled out her transgender friends, she says

Richard Ruelas
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 20, 2007 12:00 AM

Michele de LaFreniere, the transgender woman who filed a complaint against a Scottsdale nightclub that refused her admittance, said she is used to being stared at but is not used to discrimination.

"Growing up as a White male, I never knew discrimination," de LaFreniere said Thursday at a news conference.

The 52-year-old, who started outwardly identifying as a female in June 2004, filed a civil rights complaint with the state Attorney General's Office against Anderson's Fifth Estate.

The owner of the nightclub, Tom Anderson, said he is scheduled to meet with state investigators Aug. 7.

De LaFreniere, a tall blonde with a square jaw, wore a bright top with a plunging neckline to meet with reporters at the headquarters of Equality Arizona, a Phoenix organization that fights for gay rights.

De LaFreniere said she routinely danced the night away to '80s music at Anderson's Fifth Estate, both as a man and as a woman, with no incident. Trouble started in September, when she started bringing five or six friends "in different parts of transition."

One evening, she said, one of her friends asked the bouncer which bathroom to use and he said to use whichever one made the friend comfortable.

The friend chose the women's room, but found the toilet too gross.

"So, she stood up," de LaFreniere said, "and there was a complaint."

Other friends used the men's room, but a male patron took a picture using a cellphone camera, she said.

Weeks later, Anderson met de LaFreniere at the door and told her he didn't want the business of "her and her kind."

"I don't mind being told that I can't come in," she said.

"But to be told that he didn't want 'our kind' there . . . not because I've done anything wrong but because of who we are."

Anderson said by phone Wednesday that he only ordered de LaFreniere and her friends out, not an entire class of people.

"I don't know who's transgender or transsexual or who is just dressing up that way for kicks," he said. Patrons, he said, have supported his position.

Sam Holdren, field organizer for Equality Arizona, said Anderson's and other businesses should be more progressive. "Allow people to use the bathroom of the gender you identify with."

De LaFreniere said she understands her appearance causes a stir.

"Very few of you have ever met a person like me . . . but there's more to this than just a bathroom issue."

De LaFreniere, who grew up in New York and has two children, said she's fighting, in part, to bring awareness to what she said was the growing transgender community.

"The issue is discrimination," she said, "not whether I'm a freak or a deviant."

source: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...erson0720.html
see also: http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...rsons0719.html

[ducktales]

if the owner doesn't want them there, then they shouldn't fucking be there.

[LG]

if the owner doesn't want them there, then they shouldn't fucking be there.

While it's true that the management reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I think, that the issue is far more complicated than that. The question is "Why would they refuse to admit transgendered people in general?".

From the Arizona Republic article that I posted a link to:

Anderson denies that he discriminated against the transgender patrons but said he had to take a stand late last year because female patrons were "freaking out" and threatening to take their business elsewhere.

"It looked like a man trying to get the ladies drink special," Anderson said of the cross-dressing patrons.

It did not work to have the cross-dressing patrons use the men's room either, since some of the men chastised them and they were at risk of getting beat up, Anderson said.

Chuck Kelhoffer, Anderson's attorney, said the disruption "was starting to have an impact on business."

In his response to the Attorney General's Office, Kelhoffer said the complaint is an attempt by deLaFreniere to gain publicity for herself and her cause.

A third, TG or unisex, restroom (or even a couple of stalls) could solve the problem of course, but it would be costly for the bar owner to put in and would use up much needed space. In the end, it is an issue of acceptance. Transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the management) at this particular bar.

The management of any bar is entitled to refuse service to any specific person for almost any reason, but here they are refusing to admit not just one person, it seems, but a whole group, simply because it seems like too much of a hassle to them to ensure that everyone can be provided with facilities that are clean, safe and private.

I'm not saying that the bar owner is knowingly discriminating against transgendered people or that he is a bigot. But in his attempt to ensure the smooth running of his operation he has left out a whole community of people. And yes, that is discrimination in my book.

[peggygee]

Arizona Non-Discrimination Law

Gender identity protected? No

Arizona does not have a state law explicitly prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity or disability.

Sexual orientation protected? No

Arizona does not have a law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Arizona Hate Crimes Law
State law covers hate crimes based on sexual orientation but not gender identity.

Arizona Birth Certificate Law: Gender Identity Issues
Arizona will issue new birth certificates to post-operative transsexuals.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Sect...y.cfm&TPLID=67

[marissaazts]

i'll try to be as tactfull as i can here

this is arizona when you go to a str8 club and you dont pass she is lucky she dident get hurt, i am only guessing here but i know the "tg group" she is in and lots of them are much older and wont blend in, i am not saying this is right, but it is a fact of life heck most 50yr olds wont fit in at that club let alone a trans person, and management does have the right to say no to anyone

http://www.a5e.net/index.html

[peggygee]

if the owner doesn't want them there, then they shouldn't fucking be there.

While it's true that the management reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I think, that the issue is far more complicated than that. The question is "Why would they refuse to admit transgendered people in general?".

From the Arizona Republic article that I posted a link to:

Anderson denies that he discriminated against the transgender patrons but said he had to take a stand late last year because female patrons were "freaking out" and threatening to take their business elsewhere.

"It looked like a man trying to get the ladies drink special," Anderson said of the cross-dressing patrons.

It did not work to have the cross-dressing patrons use the men's room either, since some of the men chastised them and they were at risk of getting beat up, Anderson said.

Chuck Kelhoffer, Anderson's attorney, said the disruption "was starting to have an impact on business."

In his response to the Attorney General's Office, Kelhoffer said the complaint is an attempt by deLaFreniere to gain publicity for herself and her cause.

A third, TG or unisex, restroom (or even a couple of stalls) could solve the problem of course, but it would be costly for the bar owner to put in and would use up much needed space. In the end, it is an issue of acceptance. Transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the management) at this particular bar.

The management of any bar is entitled to refuse service to any specific person for almost any reason, but here they are refusing to admit not just one person, it seems, but a whole group, simply because it seems like too much of a hassle to them to ensure that everyone can be provided with facilities that are clean, safe and private.

I'm not saying that the bar owner is knowingly discriminating against transgendered people or that he is a bigot. But in his attempt to ensure the smooth running of his operation he has left out a whole community of people. And yes, that is discrimination in my book.

For the most part I agree with your statement above. However I beg to
differ with this;

Transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the management) at this particular bar.

I would amend that statement to some transgendered people are
seen as neither male nor female by some members of society, and
are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the
management) at this particular bar[/b].


And while admittedly it may be a semantical difference, I would submit
that there are many transgendered individuals who do not have
significant problems in assimilating in society, and that there are indeed
members of society who embrace us wholeheartedly in our adopted
genders.

[LG]

Arizona Non-Discrimination Law

Gender identity protected? No

Arizona does not have a state law explicitly prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity or disability.

Sexual orientation protected? No

Arizona does not have a law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Arizona Hate Crimes Law
State law covers hate crimes based on sexual orientation but not gender identity.

Arizona Birth Certificate Law: Gender Identity Issues
Arizona will issue new birth certificates to post-operative transsexuals.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Sect...y.cfm&TPLID=67

Useful info, peggy. Sad to see that AZ has no anti-discrimination laws.

Interestingly, the bar owner's lawyer cited a Utah case in which a judge decreed that:

"many women would be upset, embarrassed and even concerned for their safety if a man used a public restroom designated exclusively for women. Concerns about privacy, safety and propriety are the reason that gender-specific restrooms are universally accepted in our society."

The Utah court went on to say that, taken to its extreme, "any male employee could dress as a woman, appear and act as a woman, and use the women's restrooms, showers and locker rooms."

What is sad is that if Anderson's response to the Arizona Attorney General is accepted, then, from what I can understand, MTF transgended people will be classified as men.

How do you see the case developing? It looks like it might set a precedent that may set TG rights some way back in Arizona.

BTW: Just saw your latest post. Will respond to that too.

[peggygee]

Useful info, peggy. Sad to see that AZ has no anti-discrimination laws.

Anti-discrimination, no, hate crime protection, yes:

Arizona Hate Crimes Law
State law covers hate crimes based on sexual orientation but not gender identity.

[LG]

i'll try to be as tactfull as i can here

this is arizona when you go to a str8 club and you dont pass she is lucky she dident get hurt, i am only guessing here but i know the "tg group" she is in and lots of them are much older and wont blend in, i am not saying this is right, but it is a fact of life heck most 50yr olds wont fit in at that club let alone a trans person, and management does have the right to say no to anyone

http://www.a5e.net/index.html

Thanks for the link.

And, yes, from what I saw she's in her early 50s, has two kids and may well not be on hormones so I'm guessing that she's not what one would term "passable". And I'm sure, looking at the photos on the club's website, that most 50 year olds would stick out like a sore thumb, let alone TGs. I agree with you on all that, and I'm sure you've seen it for yourself.

But it is a shame to say that "she is lucky she didn't get hurt" because, I think you'll agree, nobody should have to fear for their safety just because they look or act different. And, even though I agree that management always has a right to refuse admission to anyone, in this case we're not just talking about a single person but a group of people.

I would amend that statement to some transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by some members of society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the
management) at this particular bar.

And while admittedly it may be a semantical difference, I would submit
that there are many transgendered individuals who do not have
significant problems in assimilating in society, and that there are indeed
members of society who embrace us wholeheartedly in our adopted
genders.

I won't disagree with the second part there peggygee. Yes, there are some TG individuals who have been accepted. Yes, there are people willing to accept TGs (many of these people are on boards such as this). But on your first point, we're coming back to the age-old question of "passability" I guess. Some TGs and even TSs, especially those who transitioned late in life, are just not "passable".

In addition,I would suggest that "passing" does not mean you are accepted. There are many transwomen who not only pass but can turn heads and elicit wolf-whistles from men, but would these men accept them if they knew that these girls were born with male genitalia? And would others?

[marissaazts]

But it is a shame to say that "she is lucky she didn't get hurt" because, I think you'll agree, nobody should have to fear for their safety just because they look or act different. And, even though I agree that management always has a right to refuse admission to anyone, in this case we're not just talking about a single person but a group of people.

it is a shame to say but in arizona bashing isnt that uncommon, esp. when a bunch of young drunk people are arround

while it isnt right sometimes common sense should win out, not everyone fits in everywhere that is life.

as for the bathroom issue i will say im uncomfortable in the ladies room not because i have ever been clocked but because women talk in the the restroom and tobe honnest it freaks me out, i have never been said hello to so many times in my life, when i used a mens room in the past there was never anyone speaking just do the deed and leave in a ladies room its all chitchat and i just wanna get the hell out lol i just havent evolved that far yet

especially those who transitioned late in life, are just not "passable".

just because u transition later in life doesnt mean u cant pass, hell i see lots of old gg women who look more like men than most men remember i live in arizona home of the neardeads