Are TS Women?

[youcancallmeclaire]

i almost wrote "w/e peggy usually says is how i feel" but b/c i couldnt remember exactly what it was i didnt want to quote her wrong...

so now that she has posted... what peggy said.... for the most part.

i feel i am a woman
i know i am a transwoman
i know i am not a genetic woman
i know that i am not a generic woman

what society sees us as is what really matters tho when it comes to work, relationships, daily routines.

if someone calls me anything other then a woman or a ts woman i correct them... esp. if its a male reference...

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?

So how did they even know in the first place?
You're so pretty.

[peggygee]

I knew that one day this question would be asked, indeed I have thought
of asking it myself.

However my question was going to be directed specifically to the women.

As we have discussed many times on this board some transwomen are
very comfortable with the designation of shemale, some have no problem
being labeled trannies, others would prefer to be known as the third sex.

Then you have those that are more rigid or politically correct in their
designations.

Clearly that is the camp that I belong to.

For me there a number of criteria that need to be met for a person to
be deemed a female:

1. Clearly someone who is born with XX chromosomes would biologically
and legally be deemed female.

2. A post operative transwoman, and in some jurisdictions of the European
Union, a pre-operative transwoman can be adjudicated a female. Thus
they are legally female.

3. If a transwoman functions, comports, and carrries herself in the gender
role of female, I feel she should be deemed female. The problem arises
when society does not confer upon her alll of the rights and privileges of
her adopted gender. Additionally there may be societal stigma.

Most likely, a transwoman will not in the forseeable future be capable of
being genetically a female, that designation is left solely to the natal
female.

However, there is more than one instance where a transwoman would
be legally and functionally female.

[tgirlzoe]

wow, you're a feisty one ^_^

i still don't see why you would want to be out though. i mean, if you weren't the conversation would have been more like "that's a man" "huh? where? what?" instead of going along with the conversation. i assume people might have suspicions about me, i'm far from perfect, but i don't like it being known as a fact because then i have to hear about it and i'd rather people just treat me like a normal woman.

you said you are out now more than you used to be, why? i plan just to go deeper and deeper. assimilation has always been my goal.

[peggygee]

wow, you're a feisty one ^_^

Yup, feisty as she is lovely.

She's very lovely, and very feisty.

[tsntx]

wow, you're a feisty one ^_^

i still don't see why you would want to be out though. i mean, if you weren't the conversation would have been more like "that's a man" "huh? where? what?" instead of going along with the conversation. i assume people might have suspicions about me, i'm far from perfect, but i don't like it being known as a fact because then i have to hear about it and i'd rather people just treat me like a normal woman.

you said you are out now more than you used to be, why? i plan just to go deeper and deeper. assimilation has always been my goal.

i gotta finish getting ready for work... just waiting for my chi to get hot so i can be smoothe

so when i come home ill touch up more on this short answer then...

b/c when i was stealth i found i got hurt *emotionally* more when i had to reveal my t whether to friends or lovers... people saw me as a dishonest person and even if they didnt have a problem w/ me being ts, they saw me as a liar and a deceptive person... ive come to accept myself, where im from and what i am.... so now i put it out there full fledged b/c i see no reason not to... it cuts all the people that may have a problem w/ it right out of my life w/o any drama or bs or wasted time... my life is simpler bc of it and my relationships are lasting and true beit for love or friendship. plus im a much happier person now and i think that comes from accepting and embracing myself. if you dont love yourself, how can anyone else?

to claire: who knows, maybe it was something i said or did or how i said something, the way i sound, or maybe she just picked it up... as someone once said to me "in a world of ugly, the pretty shall always stand out"... either way i dont care. she was rude, and was put in her place as far as i was concerned. after i got done informing my asc. she was being sent home for the day *and remember shes making almost $20/hr so its kinda a big deal to be sent home 6hrs b4 your shift ends* i turned to the woman and told her she was going to need to just find another store to get her makeup done at... one of my riders in my contract is that whatever location im working out of has to back me up 100% ... regardless of situation when it comes to me refusing work... the woman had to go somewhere else to get her makeup done for her wedding that she was already running late for.

its never smart to upset or insult someone who is doing you a service.

[tsntx]

lol ty peggy

[tgirlzoe]

peggy:

I take the feminist road and distinguish between sex and gender. Both can have complicated definitions though and grey abounds. People are usually clearly biologically male or female. But what happens when people are born with genitalia that don't match their XY or XX chromosomes or are ambiguous or if their chromosomes aren't XY or XX? That's a grey area of biology, of sex.

Society generally groups people into "boy"/"man" or "girl"/"woman", although some cultures have had third or fourth roles for people who don't fit in. Our society doesn't but we have developed artificial hormones and surgeries so that we can fit in ~ as the member of the opposite gender. Alternatively, we have butch dykes / drag kings and fem fags / drag queens ~ gender is inseparable from sexuality in this case (although emo makes everyone androgynous).

So biologically, I'm pretty sure I'm fully classifiable as "male" (although intersexed conditions are relatively common among transsexuals) but socially, I'm a girl. There are some grey areas, certainly, but it works.

[tsntx]

<--- updated


going to work now... ttyl

[peggygee]

peggy:

I take the feminist road and distinguish between sex and gender. Both can have complicated definitions though and grey abounds. People are usually clearly biologically male or female. But what happens when people are born with genitalia that don't match their XY or XX chromosomes or are ambiguous or if their chromosomes aren't XY or XX? That's a grey area of biology, of sex.

Society generally groups people into "boy"/"man" or "girl"/"woman", although some cultures have had third or fourth roles for people who don't fit in. Our society doesn't but we have developed artificial hormones and surgeries so that we can fit in ~ as the member of the opposite gender. Alternatively, we have butch dykes / drag kings and fem fags / drag queens ~ gender is inseparable from sexuality in this case (although emo makes everyone androgynous).

So biologically, I'm pretty sure I'm fully classifiable as "male" (although intersexed conditions are relatively common among transsexuals) but socially, I'm a girl. There are some grey areas, certainly, but it works.

I fully concur with you on the 'gender is between the ears, and sex is
between the legs' construct.

That's been the theory adopted by a number of countries in the EU that
will allow individuals to have an 'F' placed on their birth certificates, even
if they have had no genital surgery.

That measure was proposed in New York City recently, but failed. Also
previously a few jurisdictions in the US would allow someone to have
their records ameneded if they had had an orchiechtomy.

For me, if a person meets the Benjamin criteria for transsexual, their
gender designation should be amended.

Basically, if she walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, she's a duck.

[Kriss]

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult.

AND HOW IS THE WOMAN'S RACE RELEVANT TO THE ANECDOTE? WHY ARE WE INFORMED THAT SHE WAS INDIAN AND YET THE RACE OF THE "GIRL" IS LEFT OUT AS IF IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. WAS THE GIRL WHITE?, BLACK, INDIAN? OR JUST A GIRL?