Why is it that brazilian girls all have balls?

[LG]

Obviously, praetor could offer some real insight here. I know I'm curious to hear what he has to say. As an individual from the states, I know I can't address the topic. I've heard certain opinions before this thread was created. I would like to hear some facts on the subject, or studies to support individual views though.

I agree. The guys on the ground know a lot more than we do, however hard we research and read on this.

[tsntx]

Interesting stuff, Peggy. I think I've seen the Guardian article before. But I think we need to make a distinction between what we define as transsexuals and the travesti. I would guess that a more correct translation of 'travesti' would be 'transvestite' or even 'crossdresser' as the travesti do not identify themselves as women and do not intend to go through transformation. Some may take hormones but I doubt many have any surgery.

I have heard the word 'boneca' (which means 'doll') being used for TSs in Brazil but don't know if this is the word most commonly used and how clearly the Brazilians define between TV and TS.

I would be keen to hear what more of our Brazilian friends and those who have experience of the industry in Brazil have to say about this.

trying to make that example stick tho LG is like taking the thai and misc race CD's that some websites that advertise around these parts put up as "transexuals" ... a boy in drag does not a woman make... usually the men say on here that if it takes hormones, has changed its bodyshape, looks "fem"... its a girl / ts... therefore my posts and peggys travesti article breaks down to "brasaillian transexuals *NOT AS A WHOLE* revert back to being men... not always... but some do... not just one or two as you guys would like to think.

[rick_932]

thanks for the articles peggy, interesting stuff. im thinking about picking up that travesti book now

[Vicki Richter]

Interesting stuff, Peggy. I think I've seen the Guardian article before. But I think we need to make a distinction between what we define as transsexuals and the travesti. I would guess that a more correct translation of 'travesti' would be 'transvestite' or even 'crossdresser' as the travesti do not identify themselves as women and do not intend to go through transformation. Some may take hormones but I doubt many have any surgery.

I have heard the word 'boneca' (which means 'doll') being used for TSs in Brazil but don't know if this is the word most commonly used and how clearly the Brazilians define between TV and TS.

I would be keen to hear what more of our Brazilian friends and those who have experience of the industry in Brazil have to say about this.

I disagree with what you are saying. I think any TS who thinks she is a woman is dillussional. We're not women. We may identify as female, but I think, for the most part, we are aware that we never will be. Fake vagina, body chemistry, etc. From what I am reading, there is no difference between travesti and some of the girls who street walk on Santa Monica - or even through eros. Girls will live 20 years as a female with a penis and still not have plans for SRS. Does that make them a transvestite? No. I've asserted before, that it makes us something else. That is why I am fond of the "shemale" classification.

At least with a shemale you know what you are getting. It's a girl with a dick.

I mean Jen - when is your SRS scheduled? Jennifer - when is your SRS scheduled? TS are supposed to abhor their penises. However, like Travesti, more and more girls are living in the USA for many many years with boobs and penises. How are we all that different? Obviously there are cultural and social class things about them, but I am sure if any of us sat down with these girls that we would see an immediate and blatant difference. I know a famous USA TS pornstar from the 80's who went back to living as a man. We are no so very different here.

Seanchai - being as honest as possible, do you really see the Brazil girls so differently than the girls who goto Peanuts or any other TS for that matter.

I will have SRS someday, but not because I think I will magically become a woman, but because it will make my life a bit more normal and balanced in some respects.

[LG]

trying to make that example stick tho LG is like taking the thai and misc race CD's that some websites that advertise around these parts put up as "transexuals" ... a boy in drag does not a woman make... usually the men say on here that if it takes hormones, has changed its bodyshape, looks "fem"... its a girl / ts... therefore my posts and peggys travesti article breaks down to "brasaillian transexuals *NOT AS A WHOLE* revert back to being men... not always... but some do... not just one or two as you guys would like to think.

I'm not disagreeing that it happens. I just feel we should generalise.

I disagree with what you are saying. I think any TS who thinks she is a woman is dillussional. We're not women. We may identify as female, but I think, for the most part, we are aware that we never will be. Fake vagina, body chemistry, etc. From what I am reading, there is no difference between travesti and some of the girls who street walk on Santa Monica - or even through eros. Girls will live 20 years as a female with a penis and still not have plans for SRS. Does that make them a transvestite? No. I've asserted before, that it makes us something else. That is why I am fond of the "shemale" classification.

At least with a shemale you know what you are getting. It's a girl with a dick.

I know what you are Vicki, and if I didn't respect that and wasn't intrigued by it I probably wouldn't spend so much time here. But in a word of black and white, most girls here would consider themselves female rather than male.

That said, many transgirls have an aversion to the word "shemale" and I do not use it for this reason. It is, as far as I know, a porn industry term. I'm not saying that transgirls should have plans for SRS, but many girls feel strongly that a decision needs to be made between full time TSs and TVs/ CDs etc.

Having read your post, I think you might be keen to catch up and contribute to the discussion here which deals with the uniqueness of "the third sex":
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=21338

[tsntx]

i have no issues w/ my unfeminine boy parts, in fact i quite like it and get a lot of use from it.... like you said about getting it down the road to get some normalcy out of your life... that may be where i go but as i see it now... thats just too far in the future to think about or worry myself about. to the statement about ts who think they are women.. i agree w/ you there as well... i identify as a female but im not a woman. i am however a trans-woman and i cant imagine anything greater for myself.

[Vicki Richter]

I think identification and self-realization are two different things. I identify as female, but I realize that I am not.

I would be willing to bet that MOST Travesti feel the same way. They are just more forward as a society in respects to transsexuals.

[tsntx]

I think identification and self-realization are two different things. I identify as female, but I realize that I am not.

i agree w/ that and i think for the most part most SANE or at least "not completely jaded" ts think that as well

They are just more forward as a society in respects to transsexuals.

i dont think the brasillian society is in any respects more foward then american / UK societies.

[peggygee]

Interesting stuff, Peggy. I think I've seen the Guardian article before. But I think we need to make a distinction between what we define as transsexuals and the travesti.


I would guess that a more correct translation of 'travesti' would be 'transvestite' or even 'crossdresser' as the travesti do not identify themselves as women and do not intend to go through transformation. Some may take hormones but I doubt many have any surgery.

The long historical use of the English word “transvestite” seriously complicates efforts at communication and translation across language barriers. The reason is that it is easily confused with the word “travesti”, which is used in many Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc.).

In the Portuguese and Spanish-speaking worlds, the word “travesti” has long been used to refer to gender-variant males (just as “transvestite” was long used in the English speaking world). However, “travesti” has a very different meaning in the Romance languages than “transvestite” has in English.

Instead of referring to heterosexual crossdressers ( “transvestites”), “travestis” refers to young gender transitioners who are attracted to men, who feminize their bodies and partly transition (usually without genital surgery) and who historically have worked in the sex trade. Thus “travesti” is best translated into the word “she-male” (although that word has a negative connotation in English).

For more information, see the section about the travestis in Lynn's TS information page (see also the specifics of French translations). Meantime, the complexity and impact of the confusions surrounding just these three words (transvestite, crossdresser, travesti) exposes the larger difficulties of overall communication about gender variance across languages and cultures.

(v) Travestis (“She-males”) and Similar Composite Gender Identities

In most large cities in the Americas and in many seaport cities around the world, there exists a large but more or less underground community of transgender women who work predominantly in the so-called sex industry, i.e. prostitution, strip clubs, pornography, etc.

This has long been an option for a “landing zone” for gender-variant youngsters who have been thrown away or run out by their families. Lacking education, identification papers and any other form of social support – this at least provides them with a means of economic survival.

In a few cases, these kids may become well-paid as call girls, and talented and pretty ones may go on to earn good money for a while as entertainers. However, many live very marginalized lives in the ghettoes of the big cities.

In the English-speaking world there is no consensus about a name for these girls and women. They may be called, or may call themselves, “she-males” or “street trannies”, while others call themselves transgender or transsexual women and may identify as such (even though some follow different life-trajectories than most trans women).

Although "she-male" is considered a derogatory term in some circles (and sometimes used to insult preop trans women), the word is being reclaimed as a good way for some gender-variant people to describe their identities. Internet she-male pornography has also made many people aware of the beauty and sensuality of these women, thus helping the word seem less defamatory and more exotic instead.

In countries where Romance languages are spoken, the universal term for such a person is “travesti.” This term should NOT be confused with the English word “transvestite” (which instead means a heterosexual male crossdresser). Given the recent surge in immigration from Latin America to the U.S., the term “travesti” is sometimes heard even here, as a substitute for “she-male”.

In common with TG and TS women, travestis and she-males generally undertake a full-time transition away from a male gender identity, but under the traditions of their communities (and often lacking funds for more aggressive transformations) many usually do not go as far as to adopt a fully female identity and physicality.

To outside appearances these women often look very feminine and behave accordingly, but many may not actually claim to be women or claim a feminine gender identity. Not fitting cleanly in their own minds into either of the two main gender boxes, they may sometimes refer to themselves as a “third sex (or gender)” or as “other.”

Such intermediate gender identities develop in parallel with the modifications that the travestis (she-males) make to their physicality. They often go to great lengths to attain the most female body possible, with the critical exception of retaining functional male genitalia. Indeed, while many do use female hormones, others limit or avoid hormone use in order to maintain standard male sexual function, and thus are dependent on cosmetic surgery and/or silicone injections in order to feminize their bodies. Ordinarily the sexual partners of these women are male, but it may be unclear whether the partners’ sexuality should be characterized as gay, straight, or something else (or whether it should be "labeled" at all).

It remains to be seen whether this general group represents a stable gender identity in the long run. Some of the young ones no longer limit themselves to a lifetime of work in the sex industry, and some are avoiding it altogether – especially as advocacy groups and enlightened health services reach out to them in some cities (notably in San Francisco, CA). Some also shift onto other transgender trajectories - including more fully transitioning as trans women and then assimilating into society.

However, in Latin America (and especially in Brazil, where this group has been much more highly-visible and well-established for a much longer time), there is evidence that they do form a coherent group of people with an adopted identity that is neither strictly masculine nor feminine, but rather is a composite of the two. In many cases this composite gender—as opposed merely to an occupational choice—is at the heart of the travestis’ identity, and is a source of fulfillment and great pride to them.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...0Variance.html

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html#v

[LG]

That's interesting Peggy. The whole idea of a "third sex" ties up with discussion we had on the berdache and the kathoeys and ladyboys of Thailand and the PI.

By the way, I don't think one can generalise on TVs as being "hetero male crossdressers". I would think there is a difference (fine as it may be) between TV and CD and would also suggest that TVs do not necessarily bat for one team or the other (indeed, some are bisexual, are they not?).