The TG connection between the spirit and the flesh

[LG]

Hara and Peggy in particular might find this interesting...

I came across the term 'berdache' while viewing a youtube video made by an intelligent and beautiful girl called Angelica Ross, then found the text below on the net.

I understand that some people here might be aware of this term, but I was not. I think the text below makes for interesting reading
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Excerpts from Walter L. Williams, The Spirit and the Flesh: Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture (Boston: Beacon Press, 1986), 344 pp.

How many genders are there? To a modern Anglo-American, nothing might seem more definite than the answer that there are two: men and women. But not all societies around the world agree with Western culture’s view that all humans are either women or men…

Among many cultures, there have existed different alternatives to “man” or “woman.” An alternative role in many American Indian societies is referred to by anthropologists as berdache…

Briefly, a berdache can be defined as a morphological male who does not fill a society’s standard man’s role, who has a nonmasculine character. This type of person is often stereotyped as effeminate, but a more accurate characterization is androgyny. Such a person has a clearly recognized and accepted social status, often based on a secure place in the tribal mythology. Berdaches have special ceremonial roles in many Native American religions, and important economic roles in their families. They will do at least some women’s work, and mix together much of the behavior, dress, and social roles of women and men. Berdaches gain social prestige by their spiritual, intellectual, or craftwork/artistic contributions, and by their reputation for hard work and generosity. They serve a mediating function between women and men, precisely because their character is seen as distinct from either sex. They are not seen as men, yet they are not seen as women either. They occupy an alternative gender role that is a mixture of diverse elements.

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The berdache receives respect partly as a result of being a mediator. Somewhere between the status of women and men, berdaches not only mediate between the sexes but between the psychic and the physical—between the spirit and the flesh. Since they mix the characteristics of both men and women, they possess the vision of both. They have double vision, with the ability to see more clearly than a single gender perspective can provide. This is why they are often referred to as “seer,” one whose eyes can see beyond the blinders that restrict the average person. Viewing things from outside the usual perspective, they are able to achieve a creative and objective viewpoint that is seldom available to ordinary people. By the Indian view, someone who is different offers advantages to society precisely because she or he is freed from the restrictions of the usual. It is a different window from which to view the world…

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American Indian cultures have taken what Western culture calls negative, and made it a positive; they have successfully utilized the different skills and insights of a class of people that Western culture has stigmatized and whose spiritual powers have been wasted.

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Thus, an individual who in Western culture would be considered a misfit, an embarrassment to his family who would likely be thrown out of the household, is instead made central to the family. Since other relatives do not feel threatened, family disunity and conflict are avoided. The berdache is not expected to suppress his tendency for feminine behavior. Neither does he internalize a low self-image. He thus avoids the tendency of those considered deviant in Western culture to engage in self-destructive behavior. Berdaches who value their traditions do not tend to be alcoholic or suicidal, even in tribes where such problems are common. They are too valued by their families. In Native American lifestyles, seldom is anything thrown away unused—including people. A Crow traditionalist says, “We don’t waste people, the way white society does. Every person has their gift.” …

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See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

[iloveshemales77]

I remember there was a "berdache" portrayed in "Little Big Man", the Indian that rode his horse backwards and wanted to marry Dustin Hoffmans character. Or was he simply gay and accepted as such in his society?

[yodajazz]

I think that Native American approach is a good one. Even Jesus recognized that the 'eunuchs' of his era were a different class of people, in a discussion about marriage.

By the way Angelica Ross is an intelligent and talented TS woman. I saw her on television last week in program about going home to reconnect with her family. It was very positive. But now I cant remember the name of the show.

[LG]

I think that Native American approach is a good one. Even Jesus recognized that the 'eunuchs' of his era were a different class of people, in a discussion about marriage.

By the way Angelica Ross is an intelligent and talented TS woman. I saw her on television last week in program about going home to reconnect with her family. It was very positive. But now I cant remember the name of the show.

I agree. Angelica Ross' point was that TS women should have a higher self esteem of themselves because they are truly special. And she gave an example of where TGs are not just accepted but valued. I think such a philosophy could help the girls overcome their difficulties and hope that it can contribute to their acceptance by society.

I will look out for Angelica Ross in the future. She seems like a woman who can make a difference.

What do others think of all this? Id' love to hear the girls' opinions too...

[peggygee]

Trangenderism in non Judeo-Christian, Western societies is somewhat fairly common.

The hijras of India, the travestis of South America, the kathoeys of
Southeast Asia, in Islamic countries, Mukhannathun (Arabic مخنثون "effeminate ones.

And as you have pointed out the two spirit or berdache of the indigenous
Native American nations. In over 100 tribes, the Navajo, Crow, Lakota
Sioux, Cheyenne, etc, the berdaches were present and highly valued.

[BrendaQG]

I am roughly 3/8 native 3/8 black and 2/8 white. There is much influence from native culture in my background. Sadly this particular thing was something I had to discover for myself.

I totally buy the two-spirit philosophy. I know I am not a man, I also know that I am not a woman in every possible sense. I am closer to female than male in the spiritual sense, but I have experienced some of life in the male context. I am both and I am neither I am a transsexual. I personally have found that I am happier thinking of myself in that way.

The alternative is to think of myself as a imitation or impersonation. Or to just think of myself as a woman 100% in spite of the fact that I was born male bodied. Things that sound like crazy talk to most people.

I for one would be happy if the idea of a third gender prevailed here in the USA.

[DJ_Asia]

I remember there was a "berdache" portrayed in "Little Big Man", the Indian that rode his horse backwards and wanted to marry Dustin Hoffmans character. Or was he simply gay and accepted as such in his society?

Actually the one that rode his horse backwards wasnt the berdache,he was a "contrary" because he owed Hoffmans character a life.Once the debt was repaid he could stop being a contrary,saying no when he meant yes,riding backwards,etc...

The femme character represented the native American berdache,which was a very well rspected of most or all tribes.

From Wikipedia

These individuals are often viewed as having two spirits occupying one body. Their dress is usually a mixture of traditionally male and traditionally female articles. They have distinct gender and social roles in their tribes.

Two-spirited individuals perform specific social functions in their communities. In some tribes male-bodied two-spirits were active as healers or medicine persons, gravediggers, undertakers, handling and burying of the deceased, conducted mourning and sexual rites, conveyers of oral traditions and songs, nurses during war expeditions, foretold the future, conferred lucky names on children or adults, wove, made pottery, made beadwork and quillwork, arranged marriages, made feather regalia for dances, special skills in games of chance, led scalp-dances, and fulfilled special functions in connection with the setting up of the central post for the Sun Dance. In some tribes female-bodied two-spirits typically took on roles such as chief, council, trader, hunter, trapper, fisher, warfare, raider, guides, peace missions, vision quests, prophets, and medicine persons.

Some examples of two-spirited people in history include the accounts by Spanish conquistadors who spotted a two-spirited individual(s) in almost every village they entered in Central America.

There are descriptions of two-spirited individuals having strong mystical powers. In one account, raiding soldiers of a rival tribe begin to attack a group of foraging women when they perceive that one of the women, the one that does not run away, is a two-spirit. They halt their attack and retreat after the two-spirit counters them with a stick, determining that the two-spirit will have great power which they will not be able to overcome.

Native people have often been perceived as "warriors," and with the acknowledgment of two-spirit people that romanticized identity becomes broken. In order to justify this new "Indian" identity many explained it away as a “form of social failure, women-men are seen as individuals who are not in a position to adapt themselves to the masculine role prescribed by their culture” (Lang, 2. Lang goes on to suggest that two-spirit people lost masculine power socially, so they took on female social roles to climb back up the social ladder within the tribe.

Cross dressing of two-spirit people was not always an indicator of cross acting (taking on other gender roles and social status within the tribe). Lang explains “the mere fact that a male wears women’s clothing does not say something about his role behavior, his gender status, or even his choice of partner…” (62). Often within tribes a child’s gender was decided depending on by either their inclination toward either masculine or feminine activities, or their intersex status. Puberty was about the time frame by which clothing choices were made to physically display their gender choice.

Two-spirit people, specifically male-bodied (biologically male, gender female), could go to war and have access to male activities such as sweat lodges. However, they also took on female roles such as cooking and other domestic responsibilities. Today’s societal standards look down upon feminine males, and this perception of that identity has trickled into Native society. The acculturation of these attitudes has created a sense of shame towards two-spirit males who live or dress as females and no longer wish to understand the dual lifestyle they possess.

According to certain reports there had never been an alternative gender among the Comanche.[7] This is true of most Apache bands as well, except for the Lipan, Chiricahua, Mescalero, and southern Dilzhe'e.[8][9] One tribe in particular, the Eyak, has a single report from 1938 that they did not have an alternative gender and they held such individuals in low esteem, although whether this sentiment is the result of acculturation or not is unknown.[10][11] It has been claimed that the Iroquois did not either,[7] although there is a single report from Bacqueville de La Potherie in his book published in 1722, Histoire de l'Amérique septentrionale, that indicates that an alternative gender existed among them (vol. 3, pg. 41).[12] Although all tribes were influenced by European homophobia/transphobia,[13][14][15][16][17][18] certain tribes were particularly so, such as the Acoma, Atsugewi, Dilzhe'e (Tonto) Apache, Cocopa, Costanoan, Klamath, Maidu, Mohave, Nomlaki, Omaha, Oto, Pima, Wind River Shoshone, Tolowa, and Winnebago.[19]

It has been claimed that the Aztecs and Incas had laws against such individuals,[20][21][22] though there are some authors who feel that this was exaggerated or the result of acculturation as all of the documents indicating this are post-conquest and any that existed before had been destroyed by the Spanish.[17][23] The belief that these laws existed comes from the Florentine Codex. According to Dr. Nancy Fitch Professor of History at California State University,

"There is evidence that indigenous peoples authored many codices, but the Spaniards destroyed most of them in their attempt to eradicate ancient beliefs." ... "The Florentine Codex is unquestionably a troubling primary source. Natives writing in Nahuatl under the supervision of the Spanish Fray Bernardino de Sahagún apparently produced the manuscript in the 1500s. The facts of its production raise serious questions about whether the manuscript represents the vision of the vanquished or of the colonizers" ... "colonization of the natives’ minds loomed large in the Spanish project" ... "To make matters worse, while it appears that the original manuscript was completed in Nahuatl some time around 1555, no evidence of it remains. Authorities in New Spain confiscated his manuscripts in 1575, and at various times, the Spanish monarchy ordered him to stop his work. The earliest known version of the manuscript is, thus, Sahagún’s summary of it written in Spanish. In 1585, he published a revised version of the codex, which, he argued, corrected some errors and integrated some things ignored in his earlier summary. Sahagún’s revised version is the manuscript commonly known as the Florentine Codex."[24]

[LG]

I am roughly 3/8 native 3/8 black and 2/8 white. There is much influence from native culture in my background. Sadly this particular thing was something I had to discover for myself.

I totally buy the two-spirit philosophy. I know I am not a man, I also know that I am not a woman in every possible sense. I am closer to female than male in the spiritual sense, but I have experienced some of life in the male context. I am both and I am neither I am a transsexual. I personally have found that I am happier thinking of myself in that way.

The alternative is to think of myself as a imitation or impersonation. Or to just think of myself as a woman 100% in spite of the fact that I was born male bodied. Things that sound like crazy talk to most people.

Crazy? Not to me. I think the Zunis got it pretty much right in seeing transsexuals as special and unique.

I see TS girls as women, but, physiologically, it is pretty clear that you are not the same as genetic women. Whether preop/nonop or postop, there is something different and special about TS women that goes beyond their physical being. I realise that TS women just wish to be recognised as women, but perhaps it is imaginable that you are even more special than that. I'm not sure why, but I think the idea of the two-spirit or berdache helps me understand it a little better.

But, having said that, in a black and white world of just men and women, I would group you girls under "Women". In the gray of real life, none of us are absolutely one or the other, whether the groupings are "Gay" and "Straight" or "Man" and "Woman".

Thank you everyone for your input. I'd love to hear what others think.

[iloveshemales77]

[
Actually the one that rode his horse backwards wasnt the berdache,he was a "contrary" because he owed Hoffmans character a life.Once the debt was repaid he could stop being a contrary,saying no when he meant yes,riding backwards,etc...

The femme character represented the native American berdache,which was a very well rspected of most or all tribes.

24]

Yes, you're absolutely right, got the two mixed up, thanks for reminding me

[the Adrienne Barbeaubot]

I think this thread is very insightful LG.Even though I have done some research in Native American culture, I never came across Berdaches or there role in tribal culture before. The stuff you just posted is very interesting and shows how other races and cultures view Transgenderism. Most cultures ( Native Americans,Hindus, Asians, South Americans,etc.) all revere Transsexual women.Even the Islamic nations who hang homosexual males respect TGs. Europe is also waking up in terms of acceptance. In Spain and Italy, the Transgendered communities have rights and jobs and are accepted in society. So how come here,in the USA,"the land of the free and the home of the brave" this is not so. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites. They spout freedom and liberty and rights from their mouths, yet they are quick to condemn and ostracize those who are different. The gay and Lesbian people have jobs and are accepted for the most part. So why must it be so difficult for the Transgendered girls. Perhaps I just don't understand.