What makes a Transsexual?

[Vicki Richter]

What makes a transsexual a transsexual? What defines the point of time where one is promoted from a cross dresser or feminine gay boy to a TS?
I won't lie, there is a TG heirarchy that exists with post-ops being at the top of the food chain in my opinion. It all boils down to commitment. How commited are you to being what you feel inside?

There are many TS centric mindsets I have experienced among people. To these people I can clearly say, they legitimately have the mind of a TS. However, that isn't enough. It's a whole package in my opinion.

I don't think a TS is necessarily all defined by what is outside. There are many TS who look like the men they started out as. However, they are still going out into the world each and every day living their life the way they feel is right. Alternatively, I feel that some people who are TS do not think as women. They equate womanhood to simply prancing around exercising overt woman behaviors and mannerisms - not to appearance. They are acting. There are actually TS who goto "How to act like a woman" classes. How silly.

This transitioning TS who was going through FFS at Dr. Ousterhaut had just completed one of those schools and insisted on telling everyone recovering about how real women cross their legs, how they should stand, how they should get up... because she had just gone to a special school which taught her all that. Silly. You've got it or you don't and it shouldn't be an act.

[Vicki Richter]

I think you are or you aren't. I feel someone is a TS when they are at the point where it is very unlikely or even irreversabe to go back to their born gender.

That runs contrary to the definition of a transsexual as one who is born as one sex but identifies as the other, Vicki. Is it one's psychological nature or one's physical nature? We can see the physical, but not the psychological. You're right, this takes the topic in a new direction.

I think the medical definition applies to about half of TS. If someone walks up to you and says, "I am a duck. Quack quack" You will say, "wow you are whacked". This person needs a therapist. There are many TS who simply say, "I am a woman, treat me like one." However, they don't live, look, or act anything like a woman. How can I treat you like something you don't behave like? These people need a therapist.

I think there is a whole other definition that is defined by living a life that we are more comfortable living. I don't think I am a woman. In fact, I am very aware I am not. However, I choose to live my life this way because I am more comfortable and confident in myself as a human being. It is how I choose to live. My behaviors aren't an act or farce intended to fool or cause trickery. They are who and what I am and have become. There is no mental problem that I can associate with myself. Feeling more as female than male and utilizing everything medical science can offer to make my appearance match my self-perception or desire is not a mental problem.

It is a mental problem to wake up one day and say, "I am TS now" and expect society to treat you like a woman. These people give al TS a bad name both in society and the medical community. I mean who would live their life day to day shaving their face then coating it with cakey makeup while looking at their same male self in the mirror and be happy? That is a crazy person. It's like the guy on Silence of the Lambs.

Even young TS with no money find a way - be it through gay sex work or something else. It is a driving need you can't overcome.

[tonkatoy]

I think the problem is people on the outside trying to apply the labels. As with many things, only you know how you really feel. There are a lot of transsexual people that will never be able to successfully transition, if success is based solely on attaining a female appearance. There are people who lack the means or courage to transition for whatever reasons, but they still may feel female, and probably feel trapped. There are others who maintain an androgynous existence, i would not call them true transsexuals. And by androgynous I don;t mean pre op as opposed to post op, more like going out as a boy one day and a girl the next.

I heard a report on the NPR a few weeks ago, and gay and lesbian were on complaining that gay was losing its edge, that it was becoming too mainstream to be gay. One woman claimed that transsexualism was the new way to be outside society, or be on the edge. I thought her view was very closeminded, she made it sound as if transsexuals did what they did just to be counter culture. I think gay culture has a high degree of 'look at me' kind of needing to be scene but also wanting to be different, or set apart. I think most transsexuals, if able, would prefer to just transition and live stealth.

So I guess it goes back to mindset, adn why somebody is transitioning. Cross dressing and so forth seems more of a sexually thing, whereas being trans gendered is more a state of being.

[Jennifer_English]

I guess what defines a transsexual is different to each and every one of us..

To me I would say you have to have activley done something to change your life style towards your prefered gender to class yourself as one.

IMO dressing in prvt doesnt cut the mustard... When I first started out I had known all my life... I took the plunge BIG time...

I went full time with no hormones, no laser and wore a wig... yeah I know baaaaad.. but at least I was doing what I felt i had to. Two years I waited for CX to see me and all the while I was living full time with no other help than I could provide myself... I got beat up a LOT!!

Before I did this i may have said i THINK im TS but I think you have to actually try the shoe on before you can say it fits..

Otherwise anyone can say it.

[Oli]

I'm way out of my depth here, but I believe you've stated it when you said:

It is a driving need you can't overcome.

Once that has been embraced, you are, mentally, on your way. Jennifer said the same with different words.

To me I would say you have to have activley done something to change your life style towards your prefered gender to class yourself as one.

As for going to school to learn how to act, I'm not sure that is an entirely bad idea if your reasons are genuine. People are taught a gender role in their formative years that becomes so ingrained their actions are unconscious. A TG must unlearn one set and learn the other in order to be who they feel they are.

[Realgirls4me]

Far beyond the taking of hormones and surgery, it's their mindset and attitude first in my limited experience in this world. It's how that woman trapped inside that male body manifests itself in everyday life through her behaviors and interactions, regardless of what stage of transition she might be in. A confident attitude as to who they are is also in the picture, as doubt or apprehension isn't anywhere in the mix. A feminine aura seems to precede and accompany them wherever they go, and this just isn't the case for many transitioning. I know it when I see it, and it isn't, or doesn't come across as learned behavior. It's natural appearing iow. The physical aspect completes the picture, but it is icing on the cake. The mind comes first.

[suckseed]

I'll tell you guys wut...I've long suspected that the way transsexuals seem to be 'coming out of the woodwork' (heh) has often made me wonder how many are simply gay transvestites. To be clear, I'm not implying that any of the board's Hungangels fit this category. But I remember getting my hair cut by this gay guy years ago that was blathering on to my girlfriend about how he'd like to be a girl so he could wear panties . It was truly creepy.

I think it's impossible to categorize people with all the shades of gray between the official ones. But there's also an element of monkey see monkey do when it comes to mannerisms and habits. Hell, we're all influenced by what we see others do. The internet definitely has brought our idle thoughts to our conscious minds. Often I think my sexual likes are simply attempts to add some zing to my sex life. My current lover and I trade internet pics to each other to illustrate what we'd like to try next.

[Ecstatic]

I think the medical definition applies to about half of TS. If someone walks up to you and says, "I am a duck. Quack quack" You will say, "wow you are whacked". This person needs a therapist. There are many TS who simply say, "I am a woman, treat me like one." However, they don't live, look, or act anything like a woman. How can I treat you like something you don't behave like? These people need a therapist.

I think there is a whole other definition that is defined by living a life that we are more comfortable living. I don't think I am a woman. In fact, I am very aware I am not. However, I choose to live my life this way because I am more comfortable and confident in myself as a human being. It is how I choose to live. My behaviors aren't an act or farce intended to fool or cause trickery. They are who and what I am and have become. There is no mental problem that I can associate with myself. Feeling more as female than male and utilizing everything medical science can offer to make my appearance match my self-perception or desire is not a mental problem.

It is a mental problem to wake up one day and say, "I am TS now" and expect society to treat you like a woman. These people give al TS a bad name both in society and the medical community. I mean who would live their life day to day shaving their face then coating it with cakey makeup while looking at their same male self in the mirror and be happy? That is a crazy person. It's like the guy on Silence of the Lambs.

Even young TS with no money find a way - be it through gay sex work or something else. It is a driving need you can't overcome.

Thanks for the elaboration, Vicki. It's the behavorial aspect that seemed to be missing in your earlier statement in the other thread (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16013). As you said,

This thread could take a turn. What do you feel constitutes a true TS woman? Is it only the mental state? I think I will start a thread.

Ahh, I see you did start this thread! Excellent. I think this is a very fundamental question in the context of this forum. Speaking fundamentally, I think that the underlying principle is that a transsexual is one who identifies as the sex opposite that which s/he was born (leaving aside the intrasexed for the sake of discussion). I agree that there are levels or types of transgenderism, but I don't see it as a progressive scale. For some--perhaps for a great many--it is, as a person gradually comes to understand his or her nature, possibly passing through a gay phase because they feel different and homosexuality is the only alternative they've been exposed to, then transitioning through crossdressing to living part-time as the other gender to undergoing hormonal and/or surgical changes to achieve full-time status, and finally going for SRS.

But I think many others are not on this progressive scale at all; sure, there's always a progression of sorts as one discovers and even invents oneself over time, but the "end goal" is not the same and shouldn't be held out as such. Many transsexuals are quite happy without opting for SRS; they aren't any less woman than one who has had SRS. Nor is a post-op transwoman any higher or superior to a non-op transwoman. To a pre-op, yes, as that presumes that the pre-op as yet feels incomplete, but this is not true for the non-op.

[peggygee]

I'm old school and somewhat rigid on this, if you don't fit the
Benjamin criteria and or APA guidelines, you are not a transsexual.

To the untrained and trained eye as well, it may be difficult to discern
the 'true' transsexual.

It can not ascertained merely by demeanor, manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps this will be helpful in making an accurate assessment:

Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale

Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick
out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing
and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly.
May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or
part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual.
Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce
libido. Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with
male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)
Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as
possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath
male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed.
Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May
purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful
emotionally Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as
to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman;
sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-
erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not
admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing
gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal
male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/tran...njamin_gd.html

[peggygee]

We may want to clarify some terms, a transgendered person is not
neccessarily a transsexual;

What does transgender mean?

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender
identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression
differs from that usually associated with their birth sex. Many transgender
people live part-time or full-time as members of the other gender.

Broadly speaking, anyone whose identity, appearance, or behavior falls
outside of conventional gender norms can be described as transgender.
However, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-atypical
will identify as a transgender person.

What are some categories or types of transgender people?

Transsexuals are transgender people who live or wish to live full time as
members of the gender opposite to their birth sex. Biological females who
wish to live and be recognized as men are called female-to-male (FTM)
transsexuals or transsexual men. Biological males who wish to live and be
recognized as women are called male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals or
transsexual women.

Transsexuals usually seek medical interventions, such as hormones and
surgery, to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their
preferred gender. The process of transitioning from one gender to the
other is called sex reassignment or gender reassignment.

Cross-dressers or transvestites comprise the most numerous transgender
group. Cross-dressers wear the clothing of the other sex. They vary in
how completely they dress (from one article of clothing to fully cross-
dressing) as well as in their motives for doing so. Some cross-dress to
express cross-gender feelings or identities; others crossdress for fun, for
emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. The great majority of cross-
dressers are biological males, most of whom are sexually attracted to women.

Drag queens and drag kings are, respectively, biological males and
females who present part-time as members of the other sex primarily to
perform or entertain. Their performances may include singing, lip-
syncing, or dancing. Drag performers may or may not identify as
transgender. Many drag queens and kings identify as gay, lesbian, or
bisexual.

Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, bigendered,
and gender queer people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from
person to person, but often include a sense of blending or alternating
genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see
traditional concepts of gender as restrictive.

Source: http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html#whatare