A Modest Proposal

[insert_namehere]

It seems to me that there is a certain percentage of Americans that are completely terrified of some bogeyman with a car bomb, anthrax envelope, poison gas or what have you and yet at the same time, don't seem to feel that restrictions of personal rights, such as privacy, unreasonable search, restriction of free speech (as well as a free press) and habeas corpus are anything to get in a dither about.

Now, for the rest of Americans who happen to LIKE the Bill of Rights and would like to see them around for a bit, what's a body to do?

Seems to me that the best thing for all concerned would be the old angle of secession. There's a few states that currently aren't the supposed numero uno target for any wild-haired mujhiahadeen with a boner over the "American Shaitan" (North Dakota springs to mind) that the rest of the good ol' US of A could probably survive without.

So, the thought here is, everyone that really feels the current executive administration has their collective finger on the pulse of true America, why not move to North Dakota, declare anonymity, invite Bush as your first President, seal up your borders and call your yourselves "True Blue America".

The rest of us who've been duped by the liberal media will muddle on as best we can.

Sounds like a Win-win to me - what do the rest of you think?

[tsmandy]

What if I just secede? Give me a million square miles of land, some rivers, maybe a forest, even a desert, and I'll show you something special...

[chefmike]

What if I just secede? Give me a million square miles of land, some rivers, maybe a forest, even a desert, and I'll show you something special...

You already have, Mandy...in body and mind...don't be a stranger, babydoll...and BTW, what was your connection to Blacksburg, if you don't mind me asking? I'm guessing that it was the outdoor recreation available there, by looking at some your past posts...

Why couldn't you have been hugging a tree when I used to explore the Jefferson State Forest? I could've shared some tasty 'shrooms with you...among other things...talk about a picnic....

[guyone]

Excuse the ignorance but how exactly are your rights being trampled on? Or were you planning a 'spectacular' event?

[tsmandy]

What if I just secede? Give me a million square miles of land, some rivers, maybe a forest, even a desert, and I'll show you something special...

You already have, Mandy...in body and mind...don't be a stranger, babydoll...and BTW, what was your connection to Blacksburg, if you don't mind me asking? I'm guessing that it was the outdoor recreation available there, by looking at some your past posts...

Why couldn't you have been hugging a tree when I used to explore the Jefferson State Forest? I could've shared some tasty 'shrooms with you...among other things...talk about a picnic....

Actually I was at a conference in DC and I met some cool kids from Blacksburg. I had a crush on one of them and ended up spending a bit of time there. I also happened upon a coal train derailment that had happened a few days previous. I remember being ill at ease for some inexplicable reason the whole time I was there, and the train accident somehow summed it up for me.

[insert_namehere]

Excuse the ignorance but how exactly are your rights being trampled on? Or were you planning a 'spectacular' event?

Pardon the lateness of my response, but you know - work, life, etc. It gets in the way sometimes.

Anyway, on to my response.

Okay, let's start with Free Speech.
Our current Chief Executive, since the passing of the Patriot Act, has decided on an interesting little wrinkle in how he "controls the message". Every time he goes galumphing around the country, he has the Secret Service and local law officials set up what are referred to as "free speech zones" or "protest zones," where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event. On average, these areas tend to be anywhere from one to five miles from wherever Bush happens to be.

If he was attending a privately funded event, say a GOP fundraiser, the folks putting on the event are absolutely free to say who may and who may NOT be there, as well as giving anyone the gate that they might feel is disruptive. Such was the case of Sistrunk vs. the City of Strongville a few years back. In the instances of Alex Young and Leslie Weise in Denver, Bill Neel in Pittsburgh, Christine Mains in Missouri, Brett Bursey in South Carolina, as well as a number of cases the ACLU have combined in a single petition for redress that have occurred in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, New Mexico, Texas and Florida, these were public events, paid for with public monies and held as public (non restricted) events. All criminal charges against defendents arrested by local officers under the direction of the secret service have been continually thrown out, since as presiding Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula said at Neel's trial, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

I can only imagine the squawk the some conservatives might raise if they were subjected to the same treatment under a democratic president - and you know what? I'd be squaking right there with them.

Free Press?
Summer - 2001, Vice President Cheney refused to release basic information about meetings he and other administration officials had held -->on government time and property<-- with energy company executives to help formulate federal policies, a position on which he remains steadfastly adamant.

August 11, 2001 - the Justice Department secretly subpoenas Associated Press reporter John Solomon's home telephone records. As Solomon, stated in a later interview, "The Justice Department has indicated to us that they were actually trying to stop the publication of a story that I was working on and tried to find out who I was talking to and cut off the flow of information. So it does get into the issue of prior restraint, along with First and Fourth Amendment issues."

Patriot Act - giving federal authorities more power to access email and telephone communications. The federal government detained hundreds of people indefinitely without releasing the most basic information about them. Attorney General John Ashcroft described the news blackout in Orwellian fashion, "It would be a violation of the privacy rights of individuals for me to create some kind of list." He also issued the following directive: "When you carefully consider FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions…"

Fall, 2001 - Bush drafts Executive Order 13233, overriding the post-Watergate 1978 Presidential Records Act and sharply reducing public access to the papers of former presidents, including his father's.

December 6, 2001 - Marines lock reporters and photographers in a warehouse to prevent them from covering American troops killed or injured north of Kandahar, Afghanistan.

Homeland Security Act - Protected Critical Infrastructure Information (PCII) section. Former Miami Herald managing editor Pete Weitzel recently described it in The American Editor as a "black hole" for almost boundless censorship. The ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy, called the move-which created an entirely new level of secrecy and a system of binding nondisclosure agreements effectively muzzling millions of state and local officials and private contractors-"the single greatest rollback of FOIA in history."

Well, you get the idea, right?

On to my personal favorite and something that will be back in the headlines shortly - telling habeas corpus to go fuck itself. The case of Jose Padilla - a guy that's led pretty much of a low-life's existence, but at the same time, is an American Citizen - NOT a soldier, NOT a foreigner - and as such, is entitled to the right of habeas corpus - errr - except that John Ashcroft and later good ol' Al Gonzales have argued unsuccessfully otherwise.

The shorthand on this case is as follows: Jose Padilla converts to Islam while in prison, changes name to Abdullah al Muhajir and talks a lot of smack. Eventually he turns up at the US embassy in Pakistan because he lost his passport. On the basis of THAT event and interrogation of Abu Zabaydah (a close associate of Bin Laden's who was captured in Pakistan) where he stated he'd been approached in the Afghan city of Khowst by an American recruit to al Qaeda, (he couldn't identify the man by name) but the American told him he planned to build and detonate a dirty bomb in his home country, Jose was put on a government watch list and then arrested when he landed in New York on May 6, 2002 on a warrant as a material witness (to what, exactly, the warrant didn't say). Donna Newman was his court appointed counsel and for as long as he was a prisoner of the New York district courts, she had access to client. However, come June 11 and all of a sudden, he's handed over to the DoD and classified a prisoner of war. Since then, he's been stuck in a military compound in South Carolina as well as sunny GitMo until the government finally realized that even a military tribunal can't hang a guy on flimsy circumstantial evidence and now he's reclassified a citizen again, back in Florida and about to stand trail on charges of "conspiracy to murder, kidnap and maim". Sadly, for Al Gonzales, at least - presiding Judge Cooke labeled it "very light on facts."

Even so, this guy gets to be denied due process, access to representation and a complete abrogation of habeas corpus based solely on circumstantial evidence?

By the way, thanks to good ol' section (PCII) of the Homeland Security Act - this is the only case like this we KNOW about. You're probably too young to recall much of "Los Desaparecidos" - a term used to describe folks who just went "poof!" in Argentina between 1976 and 1983 - curiously enough, under the auspices of a military junta intent on wiping out "left-wing terrorism". Must feel like old home week, huh?

[guyone]

Funny how you don't mention the fact that Jose was carrying radioactive material and on his way to detonate a DIRTY BOMB!!!

And I'm sure that the people who were clobbered over the head with 2x4's by A.N.S.W.E.R. members at a recent protest for disagreeing with them were violating the A.N.S.W.E.R. members rights of free speech so they were justifiably punished?

C'mon...really.

What kind of VICHY BOLSHEVIK nonsense is this?

Has this board been shut down? Has anyone been arrested?

[White_Male_Canada]

Excuse the ignorance but how exactly are your rights being trampled on? Or were you planning a 'spectacular' event?

Summer - 2001, Vice President Cheney refused to release basic information about meetings he and other administration officials had held -->on government time and property<-- with energy company executives to help formulate federal policies, a position on which he remains steadfastly adamant.

June 2004, the Supreme Court voted 7-2 in favor of Cheney. It`s a little something called executive privilege, look into it some day.

August 11, 2001 - the Justice Department secretly subpoenas Associated Press reporter John Solomon's home telephone records. As Solomon, stated in a later interview, "The Justice Department has indicated to us that they were actually trying to stop the publication of a story that I was working on and tried to find out who I was talking to and cut off the flow of information. So it does get into the issue of prior restraint, along with First and Fourth
Amendment issues."

Solomon quoted unnamed law enforcement officials saying that (D) Robert Torricelli had been overheard on an FBI wiretap related to an organized crime investigation. It`s very illegal for law enforcement to reveal information gleaned from wiretaps.

Patriot Act - giving federal authorities more power to access email and telephone communications. The federal government detained hundreds of people indefinitely without releasing the most basic information about them. Attorney General John Ashcroft described the news blackout in Orwellian fashion, "It would be a violation of the privacy rights of individuals for me to create some kind of list." He also issued the following directive: "When you carefully consider FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured

that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions…" [/quote]


The PS gives law enforcement the same tools as it had to go after the mafia,organized crime,drug trafficking,etc. It also removed major legal barriers that prevented the law enforcement, intelligence, and national defense communities from coordinating information.

Joe Biden (D), “ The FBI could get a wiretap to investigate the mafia, but they could not get one to investigate terrorists. To put it bluntly, that was crazy! What’s good for the mob should be good for terrorists.”

Fall, 2001 - Bush drafts Executive Order 13233, overriding the post-Watergate 1978 Presidential Records Act and sharply reducing public access to the papers of former presidents, including his father's.

EO`s are legal. Sheesh

December 6, 2001 - Marines lock reporters and photographers in a warehouse to prevent them from covering American troops killed or injured north of Kandahar, Afghanistan.

And? Last time I looked at a map Afghanistan was not US soil.

Homeland Security Act - Protected Critical Infrastructure Information (PCII) section. Former Miami Herald managing editor Pete Weitzel recently described it in The American Editor as a "black hole" for almost boundless censorship. The ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy, called the move-which created an entirely new level of secrecy and a system of binding nondisclosure agreements effectively muzzling millions of state and local officials and private contractors-"the single greatest rollback of FOIA in history."

More nonsense. DHS`s Infrastructure Partnerships Division was created for private industry to share it`s security based information. Why in the world should the Feds or private businesses be forced to reveal their sensitive security information? Unless you`re a terrorist probing for gaps in their security.

[Quinn]

Funny how you don't mention the fact that Jose was carrying radioactive material and on his way to detonate a DIRTY BOMB!!!

LMAO.... Maybe he didn't mention it because it didn't happen. No need to let actual facts get in the way of making a point, is there, Gumpone:

But as the (not quite radioactive) dust settled on Ashcroft's dramatic announcement, some began asking not only why Mr. Padilla, a U.S. citizen, was being held in a Navy brig as an "enemy combatant," but also why he was dominating America's headlines — and its nightmares. Within hours of Ashcroft's announcement, administration officials were pointing out that Padilla had no radioactive material or any other bomb-making equipment. Nor had he chosen a target, or formulated a plan. And while his connections with al-Qaeda operatives were never in doubt, he suddenly began to look a lot more like the accused shoe-bomber Richard Reid (i.e. another disaffected ex-con from the West desperate to get in with al-Qaeda) than like the sophisticated professionals who put together September 11.

http://www.time.com/time/pow/article...262269,00.html

Seriously, do you George Bush wannabe retards ever get your facts correct? Oh, well, we can just chalk it up to more of the usual backpedaling, selective reinterpretation, and outright lying preferred by your factually challenged kind.

-Quinn

[guyone]

Sure. Keep dreaming.