what do u think about crossdressers?

[SarahG]

Its pretty simple actually, You along with the rest of us started out as crossdressers

Did you follow/read this thread at all? They are two totally different mental health conditions, one being a sexual fetish and the other a personality disorder.

There simply is no way that the conditions can be meshed as you describe.

That is not to say that the early stages of someone who is ts, and someone who is cd/tv may appear to be similar situations- but from a psy perspective they have almost nothing (if not nothing) in common.

You can talk about brain scans all you want, but that does not change the fact that the two conditions are in different parts of the DSM, in different categories.

Think of it this way, if we were to agree that a pre-everything ts doing parttime is crossdressing per your use of the word for shake of arguement, then that still does not make them a TV per the DSMIV... and this thread is about the differences between tvs and ts's.

The two conditions are more different from each other than a skitzoid personality disorder is in relation to skitzophrenia.

Edit/ADD:

Also, if you want to get really picky- crossdress using a breakdown of the word (cross & dress) doesn't make any references to birth sex. In the simplest form, crossdressing means dressing of the opposite... but that can mean different things to different people. Opposite gender? Sex?

Its all about word usage. I apply the term CD as opposite gender- not opposite sex.

In a nut shell CD is the action no matter how you use the term, TV or TS is the condition. Someone can not be a "CD"- thats merely slang, they can be a TV or a TS only.

[SarahG]

Seems to me the animosity between TS's and CD/TV's is nothing more than ego and superiority complexes. (i.e. "I'm better because I live full time and don't just dress on weekends". "I'm better because mine is a medical condition and I'm working on it, whereas you're just jerking off in hose."). Based on that, all I can is: GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE

I am confused, are you saying I am on a high horse? I already have stated that I don't care one way or an other if someone is a tv/cd, just as I don't care what someone's orientation is. It's not going to change how I view them or interact with them.

The jerking off in hose bit I specifically stated was not my position, nor one I agreed with-- I was merely making a point about the severe misconceptions out there and how those misconceptions are not always acurate. Perhaps I was not clear enough with that point.

When some ignorant piece of shit scumbag is beating you senseless in a dark alley outside your favorite nightclub, they're not going to give rat's ass how your doctor classifies you. They're not going to care whether you're a "guy in a dress" or a "woman born into a man's body", to them, you're just another "freak".

I will give you that, but it is hardly new nor radical to say that the only thing ts & tvs have in common is the way they are viewed from outsiders (hence thugs, police, people in positions of power which can- usually legally- discriminate from/with).

LGBT groups include as much as they do because of these similar "issues" in society- but that doesn't make everyone from each subgroup the same as everyone else. That doesn't mean that anyone is better either- just different.

People group the same way based on mental health conditions... in the 19th century you'd end up locked in a cage for being any number of things currently in the DSMIV... schizophrenia and pyscholosis may be as different as apples and oranges but at the time they were going to get the same treatments and the same societal ramifications.

Truth be told, getting back to the OP- TV and TS are both medical conditions per the APA & DSMIV and I don't think anyone here has said that either of the two are *not* a medical condition. Different pages of the same book if you will.

[peggygee]

Excellent comments! Peggy, thanks as usual for providing basic clarification of terms.

Actually Ecstatic I would like to thank both you and MacShreach for
keeping the discussion on target and not allowing it to devolve in typical
HA fashion.

Both of you have provided cogent and articulate viewpoints to the topic
at hand.

Thank you.

[biguy4tvtscd]

I am confused, are you saying I am on a high horse? I already have stated that I don't care one way or an other if someone is a tv/cd, just as I don't care what someone's orientation is. It's not going to change how I view them or interact with them.

While I did quote you in my response, the particular paragraph of mine that you quoted, was not directed at you specifically. It was directed at any TS that puts themselves above a CD or TV, or any TV that put's themselves above a CD, or any combination you can think of.

Apologies if you believed it was meant for you and only you. I was actually heading back to edit that for clarity, but figured I'd just respond here instead.

I did quote you for a reason, and that reason is because it seemed to me that you were using the "medical condition" vs. "fetish" to justify the "wall of separation" that is built by TS's to keep out CD/TV's and vice versa.

My point is simply that just because one is a medical condition whereas the other is more of a fetish/fantasy thing, it's pretty farkin stupid for T-Girls of any shape/variety/condition/etc.. to be throwing girls from the "other side" to the wolves.

Looking back on the thread more, I realize that you were likely just pointing out the difference because of posters claiming that "All TS's began as CD's"
But my point is this....who the fuck cares? You girls have to all be in this together, the more you ostracize from within, the weaker you are when dealing with ostracism from the outside. And again, as far as most of the outside is concerned, there ain't a goddamn bit of difference between a TS, a TV, and a CD.

[classydtwngrl]

Its pretty simple actually, You along with the rest of us started out as crossdressers

Did you follow/read this thread at all? They are two totally different mental health conditions, one being a sexual fetish and the other a personality disorder.

There simply is no way that the conditions can be meshed as you describe.

That is not to say that the early stages of someone who is ts, and someone who is cd/tv may appear to be similar situations- but from a psy perspective they have almost nothing (if not nothing) in common.

You can talk about brain scans all you want, but that does not change the fact that the two conditions are in different parts of the DSM, in different categories.

The two conditions are more different from each other than a skitzoid personality disorder is in relation to skitzophrenia.

its one thing to say your a TS its another to say it based upon psychological evaluations, I really dont know a better way to say this but GD, GID whatever you want to call it, is a bunch of BS made up by the medical community for an explanation as to why we are TS let alone its just a bunch of stupid terms made up to please us, I of all people know how easy it is to lie my way into any issues. But ive changed my mind im not really going to KILL or ridicule GD or GID because you know its a bunch of made up BS. but aside from that theres really nothing to explain that your a TS based upon anything at the moment. but seriously dont get me started on GD, GID ill say the exact same thing i said about the "mind" study.

Think of it this way, if we were to agree that a pre-everything ts doing part time is crossdressing per your use of the word and for sake of the argument, then that still does not make them a TV per say the DSMIV... and this thread is about the differences between tvs and ts's.

(side note) edited your paragraph

Did you actually read the DSMIV?

Gender Identity Disorder

Paraphilias

Exhibitionism.
Fetishism.
Frotteurism.
Pedophilia.
Sexual Masochism.
Sexual Sadism.
Transvestic Fetishism.
Voyeurism.

Associated Features:

Separation Anxiety Disorder
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Symptoms of Depression
Transvestic Fetishism (funny i didnt know you could have the same characteristics of a TV while being a TS)
Other Paraphilias.
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia.

Differential Diagnosis:

Some disorders have similar or even the same symptoms. The clinician, therefore, in his/her diagnostic attempt has to differentiate against the following disorders which need to be ruled out to establish a precise diagnosis. Children with Gender Identity Disorder may manifest coexisting Associated Personality Disorders are more common among males than among females being evaluated at adult gender clinics.

Schizophrenia.
Delusions.

LOL whats next........ are they gonna come out with paranoia as a 3rd

LOL its a wonder we dont call flamboyant metrosexuals, transvestites or transsexuals based upon that

that pretty much confirms that TS, TV, CD are linked together based upon psychological evaluations, not really much of a diffrence now is there

[peggygee]

I can understand how some people might commonly misunderstand the situation, from a medical standpoint due to similar (at times) appearances/stereotypes/etc but I do not see any way in which a cd/tv can become a TS or how the two conditions can be "blurred"

Well, maybe my outsiders (i.e. neither a CD/TV nor a TS) take on it will help clarify.

Sure, perhaps from a medical perspective, CD/TV's and TS's are different.

But from a social perspective, should they be? Should they consider themselves so different that there's nothing but disdain or elitism between the two groups? Hell, I can't even think of a good reason to consider them two different groups from a purely social perspective.

Seems to me the animosity between TS's and CD/TV's is nothing more than ego and superiority complexes. (i.e. "I'm better because I live full time and don't just dress on weekends". "I'm better because mine is a medical condition and I'm working on it, whereas you're just jerking off in hose."). Based on that, all I can is: GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE

There should be a natural, and emphasized solidarity between TS's, CD's, and TV's, and for no other reason than this: When some ignorant piece of shit scumbag is beating you senseless in a dark alley outside your favorite nightclub, they're not going to give rat's ass how your doctor classifies you. They're not going to care whether you're a "guy in a dress" or a "woman born into a man's body", to them, you're just another "freak".
It's not just about physical violence either, the same holds true for those that will hold you back from getting a job, advancing at a job, buying a house, renting, etc.., etc.., etc...

Plain and simple, those that are going to discriminate against you, are not going to pull out their liitle websters book of gender related distinctions, and double check your stauts before discriminating.

While technically transvestites fall under the trangendered umbrella, their
motivations are markedly different from transsexuals. The vast majority
of cross dresserss or transvestites, crossdress for fun, for emotional
comfort, or for sexual arousal. This activity is often limited in it's duration
and degree, and for the most part the transvestite is quite content to
remain in their birth gender.

Transsexuals who also come under the transgender umbrella, desire to
live full time as members of the gender opposite to their birth
gender.They will utilize surgical, chemical, and legal mean to do so. They
often are veery unhappy in their birth genders.

What they have in common is that they are both transgendered, that they
may dress in clothing that is not congruent to their birth genders, and
that 'society' often is not able to differentiate between the two groups.

Should there be solidarity between the two groups. If so on what issues.
As 'weekend women' they are able to opt out of the discrimination that
the transsexual must face 24/7/365. If anything they benefit from our
being on the front lines on a daily basis.

Further it often is the transvestite who will discriminate against the
transsexual for various reasons.

Admittedly I am somewhat of a hardliner on this issue. But having said
that I don't feel that transsexuals are better than transvestites, or that
hetero-sexuals are better than the transgendered.

My concerns are if the actions of the transvestite will be negatively
reflective on the transsexual.

As I stated previously, if they are with us in our goals, and reflect
positively upon the transcommunity, I embrace them as allies, just as I
would the heterosexual, or any of the groups in the GLB.

If they do not, then they are part of the problem, and not part of the
solution.

[Ecstatic]

Excellent comments! Peggy, thanks as usual for providing basic clarification of terms.

Actually Ecstatic I would like to thank both you and MacShreach for
keeping the discussion on target and not allowing it to devolve in typical
HA fashion.

Both of you have provided cogent and articulate viewpoints to the topic
at hand.

Thank you.

Thanks, Peggy. Being cisgendered, I can only understand the viewpoint of the transgendered vicariously, but I always strive to do so openmindedly and respectfully (but OMG she is so hot....erm, *koff-koff*, pardon me....).

While technically transvestites fall under the trangendered umbrella, their motivations are markedly different from transsexuals. The vast majority of cross dresserss or transvestites, crossdress for fun, for emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. This activity is often limited in it's duration and degree, and for the most part the transvestite is quite content to remain in their birth gender.

True. But there are also the bigendered, who live part-time as both primary genders, not because they haven't transitioned fully, nor exclusively for fun, comfort or sexual arousal (though these may play a significant role), but because they identify with both genders at different junctures of their lives. I have several friends who are bigendered, and have been so for decades. It's not merely a passing fancy or weekend womanhood. How do you see the bigendered, Peg?

[Kriss]

Sorry, did you say Scotch-dressers?

[peggygee]

True. But there are also the bigendered, who live part-time as both primary genders, not because they haven't transitioned fully, nor exclusively for fun, comfort or sexual arousal (though these may play a significant role), but because they identify with both genders at different junctures of their lives. I have several friends who are bigendered, and have been so for decades. It's not merely a passing fancy or weekend womanhood. How do you see the bigendered, Peg?

At first blush, bigendered has a androgynous connotation for me. A
blurring of the masculine and feminine, but that of course over-simplifies
the case.

I would say it falls under the transgender umbrella, with perhaps an
example being those who are intersexual, or those that change their
gender at various stages of their life.

The novel by Virginia Woolf and the subsequent movie 'Orlando'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107756/ comes to mind.

[Ecstatic]

At first blush, bigendered has a androgynous connotation for me. A
blurring of the masculine and feminine, but that of course over-simplifies
the case.

I would say it falls under the transgender umbrella, with perhaps an
example being those who are intersexual, or those that change their
gender at various stages of their life.

The novel by Virginia Woolf and the subsequent movie 'Orlando'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107756/ comes to mind.

That's a Woolf I haven't read, nor have I seen the movie. (Adds to list.)

I wasn't thinking of androgyny, though that of course is also a form of bigenderism, where the two genders are as you say "blurred." Nor intersexed, which is physiologically quite distinct in any of its forms (though psychologically perhaps quite similar in some ways). I was thinking more of those who change their gender at different times, not so much stages of their lives, but "stations" of their lives: they are female in some circumstances, and male in others.

I don't know. Although I have several friends who I think fit this description, I still don't really understand it very well. Interesting topic, though.