What's that British Press, Nothing To Say, Nothing At All?

[filghy2]

But back to that "premptive strike".

It looks like the 'pre-emptive strike' was a loose choice of words when he really meant measures to discourage Putin from using nuclear weapons.
https://www.newsweek.com/zelensky-nu...mptive-1749781

In any case it's just bizarre to be blaming Zelensky for the threat of nuclear warfare. Ukraine has no nuclear weapons and Putin is the one who has been making thinly veiled threats about using them.

What are you actually proposing in relation to Ukraine? Do you seriously believe that if we appease Putin's aggression to buy peace he won't try the same thing elsewhere?

[filghy2]

But nobody is going to watch 3 hours of video to decide whether they agree with your point just like you wouldn't read a book if I linked it. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to check any external link, video, or article that will take more than 15 or so minutes of a person's time.

They should at least provide a summary of the argument so people can decide whether to spend the extra time on it. After scanning through this thread I still don't know what the alleged scandal actually is.

[broncofan]

I'm more interested in the Ukraine conversation and since filghy is discussing it I will add my two cents.

First Russia took Crimea. Then they made demands for Luhansk and Donetsk. Then they wanted all of Ukraine, made claims that all Ukrainians are Nazis, and lied about the history of the country.

From what I've seen the socialist left was in denial that Putin was going to invade Ukraine. Then when he did they blamed Nato for the invasion. Then there were attempts to call Zelensky a Nazi sympathizer and when told how ridiculous that was, claimed that the Ukraine should accept peace on absurd terms or they are war-mongering.

Corbyn and his faction have been at this relentlessly. So have some American socialists among the Bernie ranks.

What is to keep Russia from engaging in nuclear blackmail elsewhere if opposing a completely arbitrary invasion is seen as escalation? I'm still curious what Jericho thinks Russia was going to do with Ukrainian people once they invaded and took over the country? What kinds of atrocities are we going to learn about Russia having committed when this is over? Will they blame Ukraine for not capitulating?

Why shouldn't Russia have Britain? If the British don't like it and want to fight back they might cause nuclear war. The way that the Corbyn faction reacted to the Skripal case was a gigantic sign that there are certain foreign policy decisions that are entirely decided by who is involved. If you showed me a video of Ukrainians torturing a Russian soldier I would condemn it. But the Corbynites pick a side and do not evaluate what is going on. It's positively sinister.

[broncofan]

They should at least provide a summary of the argument so people can decide whether to spend the extra time on it. After scanning through this thread I still don't know what the alleged scandal actually is.

There's nothing wrong with attaching voluminous stuff even if people just ignore it. But to just post it and say "why is nobody talking about this" is peculiar because I don't know why they should be. To tell you the truth I saw Corbynites talking about this on twitter well before it was released. It was understood by them that it was going to provide smoke so that they could pretend they were victims of a smear campaign regarding antisemitism.

The people in these threads have stuff in their twitter timelines like "ignore the House of Saud. They're Jews." I could not even explain to this woman why claiming someone has Jewish ancestry and is therefore untrustworthy is antisemitic. Yes this is an anecdote but I could have all kinds of screenshots of it. The problem is the people promoting this video don't give a sht.

But yes, if I published a video I would say what it was attempting to prove and what evidence it had to prove it in my own words. Anyhow, for me the ehrc investigation yielded satisfying enough results even though I believe they should have included a compendium of every case of antisemitism by an official, candidate, or party bureaucrat for reference.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...mitism-inquiry

[broncofan]

Actually what I remembered understated it. This person has more than 4600 followers, profile says they stand with Corbyn. They believe that House of Saud are Jews and that's why they're so evil. That the House of Saud and "Israhell" birthed Isis. Palestinians have more in common with the original Jews than "satanyahu". So this is a replacement ideology where Jews are not real Jews but Palestinians are Jews. "Israhellis get very upset if you point out gypsies were killed during Holocaust." To my knowledge this is not true at all and has no basis in fact and certainly did not need to be said 50 separate times.

There may be some planet where this does not show some derangement about Jews. Where someone mentions the Holocaust dozens of times and only to demonstrate how selfish the "Zionists" are or that writing semite a thousand times to attempt to prove antisemitism isn't just about Jews is normal. But to me this is a crank and while I can't expect this anecdote to confirm what an investigation of the party already showed, it is a good example of why I really don't know why this is a conversation.

Like yes totally normal stuff. When I want to criticize settlements or the occupation I talk about who the real semites are, use the word satan and hell a million times, bring up the Holocaust to attack Israelis, and claim that Saudis are really Jews because how else can we explain their behavior. Like great. Enjoy the videos everyone! I'll talk about anything else.

[Jericho]

It's not a political scandal except in your head.

People, high in Biden's administration, secretly diverting funds to people *actively* hostile to his Presidency....And you think that wouldn't be a bit of a political scandal...Wouldn't rate a mention in the local rag?
Not sure how it works in America, but over here, that *should* be met with something other than near silence in the media (The same media that clowned the Jewish leader of the party with a bacon sandwich)...Maybe if a building had been stormed.....

But notice that the people you're talking to have actually engaged in political discussion.

You arrogant, condescending, bellend!
So long as it's on topic, I'll post whatever, in whichever, format I choose. This isn't your own personal playground, this is an international forum. Whether you want to engage or not is entirely up to you.

But if you want a synopsis:
Establishment subverts democracy and how they achieved it this time.
How's that, that do you?

I'm well aware, you only care about the Jewish angle of this (Tree of Life. White Supremacist?). As bad as that is, right now, I'm more concerned about the 300k already dead from social murder and the god knows how many more that will follow due to making choices between heating and eating this winter.
And the one's who enabled it, who are sitting in the house of Lords, dressed in ermine. They got their reward

Regarding Williamson, yeah, tbh, I though you were going to rehash the discredited "too apologetic" thing. You're right, new to me. But if you expect me to condemn it out of hand without looking in to it further and the context, on the strength of your link alone, your expectations are going to go unfulfilled.

I've spent far too long following links to find Jeremy Corbyn making Antisemitic jam and working his little socks off to reopen Auschwitz
(without a hint of challenge).
You telling me you aint got your share of fairly abhorrent wingnuts slinging unfounded shit? Or am I weaponizing that for political reasons.
That reminds me, not o fun fact. Under the current leadership, more Jews have been expelled or silenced from the party than under any other leader...But no need to worry about them, they're the wrong sort of Jews (apparently)

As for condemning Russia and Putin. Whilst Tony Blair was cosying up to him and Conservatives were fulling their pockets with Russian cash, one man in parliament condemned him/it constantly. If you choose to ignore that, that's on you.

Anyway, everyone in this thread is against nuclear war, but nobody except you thinks Ukrainians would have been fine if they just didn't fight back.

Everyone eh? Everyone thought the world was flat once.
But how very kind of you to let me know what I'm thinking.

What I'm *thinking*, is America should have stayed out of Ukraine in 2014. But as usual, you just can't help yourselves, you never learn.
The cow dried up and died in Iraq. The cow dried up and died in Afghanistan. Who can we milk next?....Goooooooodmorning Ukraine.

[Jericho]

It looks like the 'pre-emptive strike' was a loose choice of words when he really meant measures to discourage Putin from using nuclear weapons.
https://www.newsweek.com/zelensky-nu...mptive-1749781

Well thank heavens for that!
Imagine how silly that would have looked in the history books, scrawled in chalk upon slate....Yes, we started a nuclear war because of a slip of the tongue.

In any case it's just bizarre to be blaming Zelensky for the threat of nuclear warfare. Ukraine has no nuclear weapons and Putin is the one who has been making thinly veiled threats about using them.

I don't blame the puppet, Zelensky.
I blame the good ole USA.
Dragging us in to yet another proxy war.

What are you actually proposing in relation to Ukraine? Do you seriously believe that if we appease Putin's aggression to buy peace he won't try the same thing elsewhere?

Are you going to apply that criteria to all wars waging around the world right now, or just this one?

[broncofan]

Russia invades Ukraine and you blame the US. That's why your clique is irrelevant. There's simply no arguing about Williamson because the stuff is so noxious and conspiratorial it's embarrassing.

A few points because there's a lot of stupid in your post.

1. We didn't merely have a building stormed. That building was our capitol and it was stormed by people who were trying to kill legislators and the vice president. They did in fact kill police officers. This was an actual attempted coup, that includes the President of the United States trying to convince electors to find votes for him.

2. If your video showed anything of an actual coup, I imagine it would not only be showing on Al Jazeera, unless the Qatari state government is more concerned about the state of your democracy than anyone outside the Corbyn sub-culture. If there were an actual coup, or act of treason, there are legal processes Jeremy could take to try to have the perpetrators prosecuted. We know he won't.

3. You claim one shouldn't blame the messenger but you've done that several times on this site. It seems you prefer news produced by state governments over private news organizations.

4. I've written about more forms of bigotry on this site, from sexism, to racism, to antisemitism and back than you have which is only relevant because you suggest I only care about the Jewish angle. Yes I care about the antisemitism angle but it's because most non-Jews do not. For instance, you tell me about the number of Jews kicked out of the party. Antisemitism is when a Jew faces an adverse consequence BECAUSE they're Jewish. It's not simply because they face an adverse consequence. Otherwise, my heartburn would be antisemitic. You're so disingenuous (to put it politely).

5. Have my examples generally been on the order of making antisemitic jam or have I instead provided examples of serious antisemitism ("Hitler is a great man" "Jews need executing", "Jews have big noses", "the Holocaust didn't happen, "we need to discuss the Jewish question"?). Find me ten examples of this kind of antisemitism in the Democratic party by people running for office. You can't bc it didn't happen. If it did happen, I would want it investigated.

6. The people at Tree of Life who were murdered were murdered because they're Jews. That you had a clp vote down a motion to condemn the act or to show solidarity with them is sad but telling.

7. Yes, the EHRC found your party discriminated against Jews.

[broncofan]

Under the current leadership, more Jews have been expelled or silenced from the party than under any other leader...But no need to worry about them, they're the wrong sort of Jews (apparently)

Who has said this "wrong sort of Jews" thing? I'm not saying nobody has ever said it but I've never heard a Jewish person say it. It's definitely not a common refrain. You just seem to repeat these weird, ineffective phrases that you picked up from the cult. The Jewish people who agree with your position are not the wrong sort of Jews. They have their viewpoint and the vast majority of Jewish people have a very different one. That doesn't mean that if they face an adverse consequence they're a victim of antisemitism unless they wouldn't have been treated the way they were treated but for their Jewishness or if people don't think they speak for the majority of Jews that they're the wrong sort of Jew.

I think one reason that the Corbyn cult resents Zelensky is because he is everything you guys seem not to be. He is smart, he's brave, he's loyal, and he has principles. Your cult is just a group of play actors and pretenders.

I forgot to tell you since you seem underappreciated. Thank you for your contributions to the political discussion. Also, by the way, I mentioned the British press going after Miliband about the bacon sandwich at the time they did it...;

[broncofan]

What I'm *thinking*, is America should have stayed out of Ukraine in 2014. But as usual, you just can't help yourselves, you never learn.
The cow dried up and died in Iraq. The cow dried up and died in Afghanistan. Who can we milk next?....Goooooooodmorning Ukraine.

What gets me about the ex-trotsky subculture is that it’s just an inversion of pro-western chauvinism. Instead of applying principles to a situation and deciding right and wrong based on what’s occurring, right or wrong is decided by the identity of the country. Rightwing Americans believe any action by the West can be defended and only atrocities committed by non-Western countries should be condemned. Instead of responding to this with fact-contingent, principle based reasoning, the Trotskyists just decided their team would be anyone who opposes the West. The problem with that is that reality is complex and sometimes states that have previously committed crimes are not wrong in the present and vice versa. But this is why Chris Williamson and other cranks can look at Iranian women being murdered by a theocratic state and think it must be caused by the West. There’s no way religious autocrats would persecute women must be their ingenious reasoning.

You also are the type of person to suggest my being American is a gotcha when I went to protest after protest against the Iraq war. But for Corbynites guilt is decided not by your actions but by your nationality and which side it’s thought to represent in their ideological struggle. It’s about as childish as the politics of right-wing Americans, which is why, paradoxically you occasionally find yourselves with common ground.

But about Ukraine, I'm sure others have plenty to say about why Russia caused the conflict and why Ukraine has a right to fight back.