Someone begins to regret the "evil" Trump???

[morim]

Does anybody start to think that the almighty Biden is not so almighty (exspecially in foreign matter)?
I do not know why but I have an idea that taliban raise to power in middle east would not have taken place with mr Trump.

[Laphroaig]

Except the withdrawal was agreed by the Trump administration in February 2020 and originally scheduled for May 2021. Whether Biden was actually bound by that agreement appears to be in dispute though.

https://www.axios.com/trump-taliban-...51bd47ed6.html

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...49154604aa11be

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/19/u...n-taliban.html

[rodinuk]

Afghanistan is not in the Middle East

[filghy2]

Except the withdrawal was agreed by the Trump administration in February 2020 and originally scheduled for May 2021. Whether Biden was actually bound by that agreement appears to be in dispute though.

Another great deal by the master dealmaker, following his equally useless deal with North Korea.

No doubt the withdrawal process could have been better handled, but the only real alternative to honouring the agreement would have been to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely. Given how quickly the Afghan army folded, does anyone seriously believe that staying for a few more months or even years would have made much difference?

[Stavros]

Why was Forever-in-Debt Trump negotiating with the Taliban? Blair is right to argue major gains have been made in civil society since 2001, but ignored the fact that the US and its allies lost interest in Afghanistan after the USSR's withdrawal, leaving a space filled by the Taliban, other than the areas dominated by the 'Afghan Napoleon' -Ahmed Shah Massoud (see link below)- and again, after routing the Taliban in 2002, Blair and Bush all but abandoned Afghanistan to hammer Iraq. The one thing they failed to do was nurture a functioning State and security apparatus.

The irony, as Vanda Felbab-Brown argued this lunchtime on BBC Radio 4's The World this Weekend (see link) is that the Taliban are effective at running a State -they can collect taxes, impose law and order, albeit of their own kind- while the Afghan State was hopelessly corrupt and incapable of gaining compliance among citizens in terms of tax collecting, law and order. But the Taliban doesn't have the expertise to maintain water and energy supplies, it has retarded views on employment and education, and they have to learn how to handle such details if they are to survive, and the 'West' is to eventually recognize them as the legiimate government.

Radio4 The World this Weekend (requires log in, and may not be available outside UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000yyv2

Forthcoming in September-
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Afghan-Napo.../dp/191336822X

Vanda Felbab-Brown
https://www.brookings.edu/experts/vanda-felbab-brown/

[broncofan]

This will be a bit vague for the time being but there are at least a few things I've been unhappy with Biden about. You have to understand though that Trump did not respect this country's laws, wouldn't let the Department of Justice operate free from political influence, and said things that at times seemed designed to cause unrest and violence.

Low bar but I don't think Biden has caused that kind of threat to American democracy or our branches of government. That doesn't mean Biden isn't in for a lot of criticism. I'd be eager to hear it because since Trump has been out of office I've had the luxury of not following politics as much.

[filghy2]

Biden seems to have been getting a lot of criticism on this issue from people who are normally supportive. That points to the essential difference between the two sides. One is a normal political party that views it's leader as a fallible human being for whom their support is conditional. The other has turned into a personal cult that is increasingly divorced from any idea of objective reality.

[broncofan]

Biden seems to have been getting a lot of criticism on this issue from people who are normally supportive. That points to the essential difference between the two sides. One is a normal political party that views it's leader as a fallible human being for whom their support is conditional. The other has turned into a personal cult that is increasingly divorced from any idea of objective reality.

Twitter is kind of interesting because although it's not a full spectrum of people who vote you get a real time sense for who is open to criticism and who is unwilling to accept it.

I agree that this separates the two sides but it might be something like 25% of Democrats won't accept criticism of Biden whereas it's at least a 75/25 split in the opposite direction for Trump supporters.

As an example, Julia Ioffe who writes for the Atlantic has been unusually critical of Biden over the Afghanistan pullout, and since I haven't studied the issue she might be right I don't know. But she had some newcomer lefty with 50,000 followers tell her to "go back to Russia if she doesn't like it here". Ioffe was born in Russia and moved to the US as a kid. The reaction to that dumb comeback was a bit mixed, but plenty of people who vehemently disagreed with Ioffe agreed that it's not an acceptable response. Of the people who thought it was fair game I think you have some evidence of tribalism because they could disagree with Ioffe and not think saying "go back to where you came from" is a liberal response.

We know that Trump critics on the right were overwhelmed with abuse and threats and the contentious positions they took were not about something as complex as foreign policy but in defense of the proven reality that Trump did not lose because of election fraud.

Point of interest: Did you guys see or hear about the Trump rally in Alabama? I thought it showed something interesting about demagoguery that I hadn't really thought much about or considered. Trump encouraged a crowd of his most loyal supporters to get vaccinated and was loudly boo'd. So yes, it's a cult of Trumpism in that any ignorant position he leads with will be followed. But he's unable to ring the bell once he takes his supporters too far down one path.

[Stavros]

Twitter is kind of interesting because although it's not a full spectrum of people who vote you get a real time sense for who is open to criticism and who is unwilling to accept it.

I agree that this separates the two sides but it might be something like 25% of Democrats won't accept criticism of Biden whereas it's at least a 75/25 split in the opposite direction for Trump supporters.

As an example, Julia Ioffe who writes for the Atlantic has been unusually critical of Biden over the Afghanistan pullout, and since I haven't studied the issue she might be right I don't know. But she had some newcomer lefty with 50,000 followers tell her to "go back to Russia if she doesn't like it here". Ioffe was born in Russia and moved to the US as a kid. The reaction to that dumb comeback was a bit mixed, but plenty of people who vehemently disagreed with Ioffe agreed that it's not an acceptable response. Of the people who thought it was fair game I think you have some evidence of tribalism because they could disagree with Ioffe and not think saying "go back to where you came from" is a liberal response.

We know that Trump critics on the right were overwhelmed with abuse and threats and the contentious positions they took were not about something as complex as foreign policy but in defense of the proven reality that Trump did not lose because of election fraud.

Point of interest: Did you guys see or hear about the Trump rally in Alabama? I thought it showed something interesting about demagoguery that I hadn't really thought much about or considered. Trump encouraged a crowd of his most loyal supporters to get vaccinated and was loudly boo'd. So yes, it's a cult of Trumpism in that any ignorant position he leads with will be followed. But he's unable to ring the bell once he takes his supporters too far down one path.

Why did nobody in a position of authorty in Alabama do something to stop this Covid Infection Rally from taking place when there is a crisis of service provision in the State? Wherever this man goes, his rallies, fund-raisers or whatever you call them, have resulted in people getting sick and in need of treatment. You start on the premise that vaccinations 'don't work', expand that into outrage that anyone mandate the wearing of masks in shops, malls, theatres and restaurants -and end up with a health care crisis. And even when you join the dots for the militants, they just don't care or accept the facts. No concept of civic duty, just rank selfishness that is eroding the bonds that once held the country together, just as Brexit is destroying the UK and anti-vaxxers here determined to kick us into the ditch, for some illusion of freedom

[blackchubby38]

I posted this in the Night of the Generals thread a week ago:

"I knew the United States couldn't stay in Afghanistan forever. So when it was announced that the United States was leaving, the one thing I hoped that didn't happen was a fall of Saigon moment. We are getting pretty close to that happening.

But you know what, I can't really put the blame on the United States and/or NATO. The Taliban just wants that country more than the Afghanistan army does. "


Well the Fall of Saigon moment happened and then some. What made this worse was watching it unfold in real time.

I have also come to have some empathy for the Afghan army. I think I would find it hard to fight too if I wasn't get paid or the Taliban was threatening to torture, rape, and kill my family.

I still believe it was the right decision to leave Afghanistan. But did it really need to happen this year. Trump withdrew the United States from the Iran Nuclear deal and the Paris Climate Accords. Was anybody really going to give Biden shit if he decided to withdraw from a deal with the Taliban and start over from scratch.

My biggest issue with Biden is that he seems to be disconnected from reality with everything that is going on with Afghanistan. He has given two Presidential addresses, an interview, and one short press conference and he seems like someone who just doesn't give a shit. As long he is proven right in the end.

Then there is everyone under Biden who also bears responsibility for this mess.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/miscue-mis...151402423.html