The Viper Room - NO SCRUBS

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=Nick Danger;1958237]

HA! You're a funny guy, Stavros. Funny like a clown. Kinda makes me wonder why you go to the trouble of acting like such a stiff in most of your posts.

I'm absolutely willing to have the Sandy Hook debate with you, Stavros. But if you want to do that, make sure you understand that it's a real debate, a long conversation, and it's no joke. There is a LOT of evidence that it's a hoax, and zero evidence that it happened. There is, in fact, zero evidence that the children ever existed. It's EXTREMELY difficult to hold up the government's version of the events of that day in real-time debate.

To put it in perspective for you, I'm well-aware that if the Sandy Hook Massacre actually DID happen, and I maintain it didn't, that makes me one of the world's biggest assholes. It's dead children we're talking about here. A person would have to be very sure it was a hoax. VERY. SURE.

I'm gonna link the best video I've seen on the subject of the Sandy Hook hoax. If you do decide you want to have that argument with me, I suggest you watch this first:

https://archive.org/details/WeNeedTo...015Documentary


This is not a documentary, it is a collection of YouTube videos made by mostly anonymous cowards, not one of whom went to Newtown to interview anyone in the town but have cobbled their evidence from archive footage. The film's tone is set with the brief reference to Fairfiled Hills psychiatric hospital (1931-1995), the Newtown hospital that has 'fearsome tunnels' which really are just tunnels connecting different parts of the building. The 'macabre' medical procedures that were carried out there were standard procedures at the time whatever you think of them now.

The parents are actors and musicians -proof that Sandy Hook was staged? MRSTOSH314 make much of this, as if to prove these men and women were recruited to act in the 'Sandy Hook Massacre Drama' -what it fails to do is establish as a mundane fact that across the USA, millions of mums and dads are involved in amateur dramatics, and some even make films in which they sing children's songs.

The segment by FreeRadioRevolution also attempts to smear Gene Rosen because he too was a part time actor. Well guess what, when I was 9-11 years old I acted in plays that were put on by the church I went to. It happens all over the world, but here's the other thing -I would never call myself an 'Actor'. It was just fun. As for the dads who play the guitar and sing their own songs -er, YouTube has more examples of them than I care to list. So mums and dads who act and play guitar really are just mums and dads who act and play guitar, they are not on the payroll of Murder Inc.

Tosh also makes the claim that Veronique Pozner is also Veronique Haller, when the most basic research shows this to be false -

"The “researcher” claims that Veronique, the mother of Noah, is an anti-gun Swiss diplomat. Now, this is not new, earth-shattering speculation by the hoaxers. This hypothesis has been around since shortly after the shooting. In fact, I never touched on the topic because I’d thought that most of the hoaxers had realized early on that this suggestion was ludicrous. Veronique Pozner, the Connecticut RN, and Veronique Haller, the Swiss diplomat, are two completely different people. Let’s take a closer look at the compelling research this hoaxer presents to establish these woman are the same person."
https://sandehook.wordpress.com/2014...wo-veroniques/

I could go on -Adam Lanza stole his brother's ID on the day so the first reports based on the ID first responders found claimed the shooter was Ryan Lanza. Others claim nobody attempted to call or talk to Lanza's father Peter, and (on one of the imdb reviews of the film) continued to claim this even after Peter Lanza gave an interview to the New Yorker, as reported here-
https://www.today.com/news/adam-lanz...orn-2D79346468

As for the fundamental driver of this staged event, what was the point of massacring children to force Congress to introduce new gun control measures, when they did no such thing? And when a phone call to Mitch McConnell was all that was needed to confirm that he would not support such measures?

It is simple, Nick -you have stepped out of the world of reason, and into the world of faith, where you can believe anything you want to believe, that the world is flat, that Elvis is still alive, that Black People were not born on planet Earth but arrived here on a spaceship from another planet, and so on.

You embarrass yourself at one level, but on another level you are a mendacious creep who cares nothing for the lives of ordinary Americans slaughtered by extraordinary lunatics. You cling to bogus theories because thse theories suit your template of a world of corrupt politicians profiting from your ignorance, but do so by ignoring veriifiabe facts that prove you to be wrong, because you choose lies over the truth.

In most cases, you are just another crank without a shaft, but when you become part of a movement designed to replace a Liberal Democacy with Anarchy, you become accountable to your fellow Americans who bear arms against a Republic they claim has betrayed them, seeking a Utopian America where there are no laws, no government, no taxes, and where a free citizen can do anything he or she wants.

You hang your pathetic, childish fantasies onto Sandy Hook because your are crippled by a self-doubt that you transform into an absolute certainty, when most people are in normal times possessed of enough reason to distinguish fact from fantasy, even as they know they don't know everything.

You have proven nothing other than your own stupidity, just as you lack the courage to go Newtown and talk to the people who saw what happened, because you are a coward.

[Nick Danger]

There's another dimension missing from your potted history of US politics, and that is white identity politics. The Democrats used to be the white identity party until the civil rights legislation of the Johnson administration, after which the Republicans embarked on the southern strategy to win over disgruntled working class whites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

I doubt that most of those people enthusiastically cheering Trump at the MAGA rallies were there because they wanted smaller government or enforcement of Christian morality. They were mainly there because they hate the idea of the US ceasing to be a country dominated by white folks. There is loads of research showing that this was the main factor behind Trump's support.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...-anxiety-study

It's interesting that you consistently try to downplay this element.. It's also odd that complain that the media is somehow convincing people to vote Democrat against their true interests when the whole point of the southern strategy has been to convince the white working class to vote for the party that favours the interests of the rich.

I think I plainly said that there's a little racism in the heart of most wealthy white people, Flighty. Poor white people can be even worse, they often have anger issues that accompany their version of racism.

Rich white racism: "Those people are beneath me."
Poor white racism: "Those people are taking my jobs."

I disagree that racism is what put Trump into office. More like conservative white backlash against liberal flagship issues like Obamacare and gay marriage. You've been watching too much television, Flighty. Just because the media has suddenly acted as if racism is a huge problem in this country doesn't mean it actually is. If I were an employee, I'd prefer to be black. Black people have all the advantages in the modern workplace, up to and including the tax break employers get for hiring them in the first place, not to mention the ever-present spectre of "racism" in a situation where they weren't the right person for the job and someone wants to fire them or pass them over for promotion. It's a great time to be a black worker in the USA.

Seems to me you're looking at the more vocal outliers of the Republican Party and making an assumption there's a lot more of them than there actually are. The so-called "White Supremacist Vote" is a few thousand people, a tiny drop in a great big bucket of voters.

Now I HAVE had conversations with a few of my fellow middle-aged, middle class white men, many of whom are PRAGMATIC racists. They don't have a problem with black people but they will always vote against Democrats because they consider the black advantage in the modern workplace to be too great. Any whiff of Affirmative Action will send their vote in the other direction. I'm not sure if this qualifies as racism, or if it's just reactionary self-preservation. Either way, yeah, for sure that's out there too.

Far as some of the police violence against blacks, I've seen the same videos you've seen. In the vast majority of them, the perpetrator in question is resisting arrest, reaching for a weapon, fighting the police, etc. Now and then I see a case of real racial injustice. But then again, I've also seen plenty of white people treated unjustly by the police.

What I think is that, because of our nation's past with slavery, we should treat the political complaints of our black citizens with a sense of hyper-consideration, and what I mean by that is this: If they make a good argument, we should consider it a great argument and treat it with exigence. If they make a borderline argument we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a good one.

But a shitty argument is always a shitty argument, and the argument that there is systemic racism in the USA is a shitty argument. If anything "The System" favors being black.

[Nick Danger]

This is not a documentary, it is a collection of YouTube videos made by mostly anonymous cowards, not one of whom went to Newtown to interview anyone in the town but have cobbled their evidence from archive footage. The film's tone is set with the brief reference to Fairfiled Hills psychiatric hospital (1931-1995), the Newtown hospital that has 'fearsome tunnels' which really are just tunnels connecting different parts of the building. The 'macabre' medical procedures that were carried out there were standard procedures at the time whatever you think of them now.

The parents are actors and musicians -proof that Sandy Hook was staged? MRSTOSH314 make much of this, as if to prove these men and women were recruited to act in the 'Sandy Hook Massacre Drama' -what it fails to do is establish as a mundane fact that across the USA, millions of mums and dads are involved in amateur dramatics, and some even make films in which they sing children's songs.

The segment by FreeRadioRevolution also attempts to smear Gene Rosen because he too was a part time actor. Well guess what, when I was 9-11 years old I acted in plays that were put on by the church I went to. It happens all over the world, but here's the other thing -I would never call myself an 'Actor'. It was just fun. As for the dads who play the guitar and sing their own songs -er, YouTube has more examples of them than I care to list. So mums and dads who act and play guitar really are just mums and dads who act and play guitar, they are not on the payroll of Murder Inc.

Tosh also makes the claim that Veronique Pozner is also Veronique Haller, when the most basic research shows this to be false -

"The “researcher” claims that Veronique, the mother of Noah, is an anti-gun Swiss diplomat. Now, this is not new, earth-shattering speculation by the hoaxers. This hypothesis has been around since shortly after the shooting. In fact, I never touched on the topic because I’d thought that most of the hoaxers had realized early on that this suggestion was ludicrous. Veronique Pozner, the Connecticut RN, and Veronique Haller, the Swiss diplomat, are two completely different people. Let’s take a closer look at the compelling research this hoaxer presents to establish these woman are the same person."
https://sandehook.wordpress.com/2014...wo-veroniques/

I could go on -Adam Lanza stole his brother's ID on the day so the first reports based on the ID first responders found claimed the shooter was Ryan Lanza. Others claim nobody attempted to call or talk to Lanza's father Peter, and (on one of the imdb reviews of the film) continued to claim this even after Peter Lanza gave an interview to the New Yorker, as reported here-
https://www.today.com/news/adam-lanz...orn-2D79346468

As for the fundamental driver of this staged event, what was the point of massacring children to force Congress to introduce new gun control measures, when they did no such thing? And when a phone call to Mitch McConnell was all that was needed to confirm that he would not support such measures?

It is simple, Nick -you have stepped out of the world of reason, and into the world of faith, where you can believe anything you want to believe, that the world is flat, that Elvis is still alive, that Black People were not born on planet Earth but arrived here on a spaceship from another planet, and so on.

You embarrass yourself at one level, but on another level you are a mendacious creep who cares nothing for the lives of ordinary Americans slaughtered by extraordinary lunatics. You cling to bogus theories because thse theories suit your template of a world of corrupt politicians profiting from your ignorance, but do so by ignoring veriifiabe facts that prove you to be wrong, because you choose lies over the truth.

In most cases, you are just another crank without a shaft, but when you become part of a movement designed to replace a Liberal Democacy with Anarchy, you become accountable to your fellow Americans who bear arms against a Republic they claim has betrayed them, seeking a Utopian America where there are no laws, no government, no taxes, and where a free citizen can do anything he or she wants.

You hang your pathetic, childish fantasies onto Sandy Hook because your are crippled by a self-doubt that you transform into an absolute certainty, when most people are in normal times possessed of enough reason to distinguish fact from fantasy, even as they know they don't know everything.

You have proven nothing other than your own stupidity, just as you lack the courage to go Newtown and talk to the people who saw what happened, because you are a coward.

Wow, Stavros, that's good stuff. The appeal to emotion in your argument is so strong it almost distracted me from the fact that you didn't actually make an argument.

Let's START from the fact that this was a staged exercise. Any dipshit can watch the video of the so-called parents attempting to muster tears unsuccessfully, laughing when they think the cameras are off, generally being very POOR actors, and see that it's a drill. So that's what you actually HAVE, as a media consumer - video of an obviously staged event.

Immediately following the incident, when all the world had to go on was the video, numerous polls conducted by various media on all points of the political spectrum showed that the MAJORITY of people thought the entire thing was staged.

Of course that's when the media got to work in earnest.

So let's say that the burden of proof is on you, the true believer, to prove that this was not a staged event, but a real mass murder that actually happened. Where would you begin, Stavros.

Normally you'd show photos of the victims. Tasteless as it might seem, this is news we're talking about. It's unprecedented for EVERY SINGLE PHOTO of EVERY SINGLE VICTIM to be 100% redacted. But okay, this is a very unusual situation. The parents felt very strongly about protecting the privacy of their dead children by insisting the photographs be institutionally protected from ever being seen by anyone. They weren't interested in sympathy from the masses (even though their entire lives now revolve around sympathy from the masses), they just wanted to make sure those photos didn't get seen.

So what's your next option? Photos of the crime scene. The blood, that's the evidence right there, you're not going to have a massacre of 26 people without an ugly crime scene riddled with bullets and soaked with blood stains.

But alas, no such photos can be viewed. Redacted. By the state legislature. But WAIT - The Mirror (UK) managed to get ITS hands on photos from inside the school. HERE'S your evidence: https://www.mirror.co.uk/incoming/ga...leased-2966707 . Or if that's not enough, what about THESE "chilling photos" from the New York Post - https://nypost.com/2013/11/25/chilli...lair-released/

Oops.

I guess we'll have to settle for the video of the covered bodies of children being removed from the school as our evidence that anything at all happened in that school that day. But wait, what's this? They left the bodies rotting in the school all day and then removed them under cover of darkness? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sandy-h...ool-overnight/

Now that's...odd.

Well, lacking video or photographic evidence of a mass murder, we can simply take the word of media and law enforcement that the thing DID happen. These are the people we trust! It wasn't just a drill even though that's what it looked like, because they said so. And really, a simple perusal of the birth and death certificates of the murdered children will should be sufficient evidence for anyone who has a modicum of trust in America's institutions.

LOL REDACTED! I shouldn't laugh. I just think it's hilarious that anyone can look at this huge steaming pile of horseshit and mentally block out the irrefutable evidence of media foreknowledge, the unlikely scenario that not a single parent thought it might have been a good idea if someone armed had been at the school to stop this 80-pound commando from carrying out his evil mission (every single parent, pro-gun control, even after losing a child in a scenario where armed educators or even a security guard would likely have saved their child), the laughable video of people walking in circles at the firehouse, the gun control advocation history of the participants, the utterly abysmal acting, the immediate institutional cover-up, the video evidence that there was no evacuation of the school, and ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE THAT THIS WAS STAGED.

Also, Stavros, Gene Rosen wasn't vilified because he's a shitty actor, though he is. He was vilified because of the multiple inconsistencies in his story from one telling to the next, and the fact that he was caught on video rehearsing his lines.

You ain't too clever, Stavros. Not as clever as I thunk you were. This case does not come down to multiple Veronicas, it comes down to multiple mistakes made by the not-so-clever people who were trying to fool us, and who succeeded vs. those of us incapable of critical thinking.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=Nick Danger;1958320]

Wow, Stavros, that's good stuff. The appeal to emotion in your argument is so strong it almost distracted me from the fact that you didn't actually make an argument.

You have decided it was a staged event, and everything you observe proves your point. It matters not that Veronica Pozner is a reistered nurse and not a Swiss gun control advocate, because it ruins one aspect of your fantasy. You want to see explicit photos of murdered children at a blood-soaked crime scene, photos which are rarely if ever shown of any crime scene, be it Oklahoma, 9/11, Parkland, Las Vegas, and so on -but the question is why do you want to see such photos? And, on the basis of the views you have shared with us, even those photos you would dismiss as fake, and must be because you claim it never happened.

We can go on and on, and you can go round and round in circles, always asking the same questions which have only one answer which proves your point, just as the fundamental point that the gun control laws that were supposed to follow this and the other massacres never happened, but you don't ask, or explain why.

You treat the truth with contempt, just us in a recent post you demonstrate such an ignorance of the way Race has shaped American history, politics and society, I wonder if you live in a bubble, or a hole in the ground. What is clear is that you have stepped out of the world of reason, to live in a world of make-believe, and you have every right to make stuff up and stick with it even when it makes a fool of you.

But do you have a right to insult the victims of Sandy Hook? What do you achieve when you do that?

You are a disgrace to American society, and I for one will no longer respond to your posts because the stink is as universal as it is unwelcome.

I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than to teach ten thousand stars how not to dance

[Nick Danger]

You have decided it was a staged event, and everything you observe proves your point. It matters not that Veronica Pozner is a reistered nurse and not a Swiss gun control advocate, because it ruins one aspect of your fantasy. You want to see explicit photos of murdered children at a blood-soaked crime scene, photos which are rarely if ever shown of any crime scene, be it Oklahoma, 9/11, Parkland, Las Vegas, and so on -but the question is why do you want to see such photos? And, on the basis of the views you have shared with us, even those photos you would dismiss as fake, and must be because you claim it never happened.

We can go on and on, and you can go round and round in circles, always asking the same questions which have only one answer which proves your point, just as the fundamental point that the gun control laws that were supposed to follow this and the other massacres never happened, but you don't ask, or explain why.

You treat the truth with contempt, just us in a recent post you demonstrate such an ignorance of the way Race has shaped American history, politics and society, I wonder if you live in a bubble, or a hole in the ground. What is clear is that you have stepped out of the world of reason, to live in a world of make-believe, and you have every right to make stuff up and stick with it even when it makes a fool of you.

But do you have a right to insult the victims of Sandy Hook? What do you achieve when you do that?

You are a disgrace to American society, and I for one will no longer respond to your posts because the stink is as universal as it is unwelcome.

I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than to teach ten thousand stars how not to dance

Like I said, Stavros - it's EXTREMELY difficult to hold the official version of events up under the cold hard light of truth. Kudos for stepping up to the plate, even though you struck out.

Suit yourself on the stink thing. I've run off worse knuckleheads than you by fanning the stench of reality in their direction.

[Nick Danger]

BTW let me just say that ANYONE who wants to take up the mantle of the official story about Sandy Hook is welcome to do so, and I will gladly field your argument. Or if you're a sensitive soul instead of a leathery old virtue-signaler like Stavros, I'll go as easy on you as you please - even so far as to not reply at all if that's what you want. I realize that some people might want to say something insulting to me because I'm treating the Sandy Hook victims as the perpetrators they really are instead of the victims they're pretending to be. That's okay, I'll let you run me down as a sorry sack of shit, I am not sensitive about this matter at all.

Just say your piece and state you don't want a reply, and I'll leave you alone and let your argument stand. THAT'S how certain I am that no case can be made that this rank abomination of a false flag effort to take guns from law-abiding American citizens actually happened.

We are ALL Sandy Hook victims.

[filghy2]

f I were an employee, I'd prefer to be black. Black people have all the advantages in the modern workplace, up to and including the tax break employers get for hiring them in the first place, not to mention the ever-present spectre of "racism" in a situation where they weren't the right person for the job and someone wants to fire them or pass them over for promotion. It's a great time to be a black worker in the USA.

Some advantage. Average black income in the US is about 40% lower than average white income.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/p...ity/index.html

They are also more likely to be unemployed, live in poverty, have various health problems, get murdered, shot by police, etc, etc. If you would prefer to be born black if you had your time over that would seem to be a very strange decision.

Even if we compare people in the same job, with the same qualifications and experience, white people earn more than blacks on average. https://www.payscale.com/data/racial-wage-gap

The idea that black people are getting some unfair advantage is just classic white grievance stuff, not based on any evidence.

[filghy2]

I disagree that racism is what put Trump into office. More like conservative white backlash against liberal flagship issues like Obamacare and gay marriage.

That doesn't explain why they went for Trump more enthusiastically than they have for more conventional Republicans. Did Trump have a stronger position on Obamacare and gay marriage than any other candidate?

[filghy2]

As for the fundamental driver of this staged event, what was the point of massacring children to force Congress to introduce new gun control measures, when they did no such thing? And when a phone call to Mitch McConnell was all that was needed to confirm that he would not support such measures?

This is the problem with most conspiracy theories - the link between the supposed conspiracy and the supposed goal is pretty tenuous. Given the large number of mass killings that have occurred in the US with no effect on opposition to gun control, why would anyone expect one more massacre to make the critical difference?

There is also another obvious plausibility problem. Such a conspiracy would have had to involve a large number of people, with a very high probability that eyewitnesses outside of the conspiracy would have seen something suspicious, either at the time or later. Newton is a town of 28,000 people, which means a large number of potential connections to anything involving the school. Yet all the alleged evidence seems to be highly circumstantial. Are we supposed to believe that the entire community was in on the conspiracy and none have had second thoughts? Or are we supposed to believe that the conspirators were so clever that no eyewitnesses spotted anything incriminating, but at the same time so careless that they left lots of evidence for internet sleuths to find?

[Nick Danger]

Some advantage. Average black income in the US is about 40% lower than average white income.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/p...ity/index.html

They are also more likely to be unemployed, live in poverty, have various health problems, get murdered, shot by police, etc, etc. If you would prefer to be born black if you had your time over that would seem to be a very strange decision.

Even if we compare people in the same job, with the same qualifications and experience, white people earn more than blacks on average. https://www.payscale.com/data/racial-wage-gap

The idea that black people are getting some unfair advantage is just classic white grievance stuff, not based on any evidence.

I didn't say I'd prefer to be born black, I said I'd prefer to be black if I were an employee. Obviously there are cultural disadvantages to being born black that lead to many blacks existing on the periphery of the workforce or never entering it at all. Some segments of black culture disdain education, some segments encourage racism against whites, and in some segments of black culture, gang membership is mandatory if you want to survive. People like Colin Powell or Condoleezza Rice, who have climbed to the top of the cultural ladder on their own merits, are viewed as "sellouts" or Uncle Toms by some segments of black society. Those same segments tend to hold murderous gangsters like Snoop Dogg or Wu-Tang Clan up as icons.

If we're being totally honest, the failure of Example Black Person to prosper in the workforce can often be attributed to his personal failure to adapt to the predominant culture. Whether that's his fault, the fault of his upbringing, or the fault of society-at-large is a question to be asked, but asking the question doesn't affect the outcome.

I don't have the solution, all I'm saying is that we've tried to affect this outcome by offering blacks advantages in education and the workplace - by replacing the merit-based system with a quota-based system. The advantages are real, they're still with us, and based on Biden's recent tendency to use the word "equity" instead of "equality" when talking about combating white supremacy, are about to be expanded. So I dunno, let's see what happens. I think a failed approach is a failed approach but maybe we simply haven't gone far enough in that direction.

This is the problem with most conspiracy theories - the link between the supposed conspiracy and the supposed goal is pretty tenuous. Given the large number of mass killings that have occurred in the US with no effect on opposition to gun control, why would anyone expect one more massacre to make the critical difference?

There is also another obvious plausibility problem. Such a conspiracy would have had to involve a large number of people, with a very high probability that eyewitnesses outside of the conspiracy would have seen something suspicious, either at the time or later. Newton is a town of 28,000 people, which means a large number of potential connections to anything involving the school. Yet all the alleged evidence seems to be highly circumstantial. Are we supposed to believe that the entire community was in on the conspiracy and none have had second thoughts? Or are we supposed to believe that the conspirators were so clever that no eyewitnesses spotted anything incriminating, but at the same time so careless that they left lots of evidence for internet sleuths to find?

The reason people don't see the direct cause-and-effect of the Sandy Hook hoax is pretty simple - Republican control of Congress. Obama tried. Hard, at the federal level, but he was unsuccessful and unsuccessful efforts are forgotten.

Here's a Wiki page that lists ALL of the Democratic efforts at gun control legislation behind Sandy Hook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_co...chool_shooting

Frankly I'm not sure how it is the Democratic Party became identified with gun control, probably just a natural progression from its constituents' other beliefs, but that's how it is now.

Connecticut, New York, and Maryland, all blue states, DID succeed in introducing additional gun control legislation behind Sandy Hook.

To this day, the Sandy Hook "parents" are like a rock band out on tour, and I'll give you one guess which same old song they're playing over and over again.

Don't forget, there have been a lot of real school shootings. But Sandy Hook is still "the deadliest."

As for the plausibility problem, yes, there most certainly is one, Flighty. The entire event is totally implausible. Why has no one stepped forward to say "This was a hoax?" Could be the millions of dollars in bribes, Flighty. It could be that. On the other hand, the makers of that video We Need To Talk About Sandy Hook say they were threatened about going forward. With death! So there could be that happening too.

I personally don't think there were that many people involved. The parents. The police. Elements of the media. A small government coalition. All united in their sacred cause to disarm the citizenry. Oh, and become millionaires in the process.