Here in NYC, what is happening during this coronavirus crisis? Let me tell you

[Stavros]

Everyday I read and/or see something that makes me think that this city is never going to be the same after the pandemic. I don't mean that in a good way.

It raises the question, for you, for Fred and others from NYC -if you could, would you live somewhere else?

Also, what's been happening with Covid-19 and the election? Some of the report suggest more rather than less restrictions on social gatherings, and problems with ballot papers.

[blackchubby38]

It raises the question, for you, for Fred and others from NYC -if you could, would you live somewhere else?

Also, what's been happening with Covid-19 and the election? Some of the report suggest more rather than less restrictions on social gatherings, and problems with ballot papers.

To answer your first question, yes. I can deal with a city being expensive to live in. But what I can't deal with is a city that is expensive to live in that maybe on its way to an economic collapse and all the problems that come with it.

As for your second one, there are more restrictions on social gatherings because there was an uptick in cases in several neighborhoods. The problem is that the neighborhoods are heavily populated by the Orthodox Jewish community and once again it appears that the both Deblasio and Cuomo are signaling them out.

This article goes into detail about what's been happening.

www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/nyregion/orthodox-jews-queens-brooklyn-closures.html

As for the paper ballots, I really don't know what's going with that. Whatever the problems are, I think its just better to go vote in person.

[filghy2]

As for your second one, there are more restrictions on social gatherings because there was an uptick in cases in several neighborhoods. The problem is that the neighborhoods are heavily populated by the Orthodox Jewish community and once again it appears that the both Deblasio and Cuomo are signaling them out.

Another contender for the malopropism of the month.

I don't understand the logic here. If the restrictions are based on case numbers and they apply equally to all kinds of gatherings then how exactly is that singling out Orthodox Jews? If religious gatherings were exempted that would be singling them out.

[blackchubby38]

Another contender for the malopropism of the month.

I don't understand the logic here. If the restrictions are based on case numbers and they apply equally to all kinds of gatherings then how exactly is that singling out Orthodox Jews? If religious gatherings were exempted that would be singling them out.

Restrictions have been applied to religious gatherings.

http://https://www.nytimes.com/2020/...ynagogues.html


Also the article I posted in my previous post is why I mentioned the singling out:

Then in mid-August, the city’s disease data detection program — called SaTScan — began to blare a warning about a rise of coronavirus cases in Borough Park. In response, the city’s new health commissioner, Dr. Dave Chokshi, held an urgent conference call with Orthodox Jewish news outlets to warn of rising transmission and to express concern that public health advice was not being diligently followed in these communities.

But the call grew contentious when Dr. Chokshi was peppered with questions about why Mayor Bill de Blasio and his administration had not shown the same level of concern about the mass gatherings of protesters during the Black Lives Matter demonstrations.

“What justification can we tell readers — why do they have to be careful when the mayor carves out exceptions based on his own personal politics?” one reporter asked Dr. Chokshi.

[broncofan]

I've followed the debate about the Orthodox Jewish community with interest. I am secular Jewish but am pretty close with someone who is an Orthodox Jew and I do think it has provided me with some insight into the community. Much of daily life for him revolves around close communal activities and it is difficult for people in that community to socially distance without suspending most of their cultural/religious activities. But then, we've all been asked to make sacrifices. Though I accept that health requirements may alter some people's way of life more than others, that is often the way law works when applied neutrally.

I think that during the Black Lives Matter protests there were a lot of distancing violations and generally state and local officials didn't want to enforce health regulations when the situation was very tense. It's also difficult for me to understand the use of BLM supporters as an example of consequence free gatherings when many peaceful protesters were attacked by police, pepper sprayed and hit with rubber bullets. Public health guidelines were probably not enforced because it was a civil rights protest playing out on the national stage and a tinder box.

Ultimately, I don't think the Orthodox Jewish community has a great argument that it has been singled out. There were a couple of public relations blunders by De Blasio. But the community's record of compliance with public health guidelines has not been good and this is a case where public safety depends on the cooperation of other people. That doesn't mean the community does not face individual acts of discrimination or unfair treatment but I just don't see how the restrictions on public gatherings have been unfairly enforced.

Just my opinion and obviously I could be wrong.

[Stavros]

To answer your first question, yes. I can deal with a city being expensive to live in. But what I can't deal with is a city that is expensive to live in that maybe on its way to an economic collapse and all the problems that come with it.

As for your second one, there are more restrictions on social gatherings because there was an uptick in cases in several neighborhoods. The problem is that the neighborhoods are heavily populated by the Orthodox Jewish community and once again it appears that the both Deblasio and Cuomo are signaling them out.

The next question following the first is obvious -if you were to leave NYC where would you go? If your work is based in the city, I assume the suburbs?

The longer term unknown is how dependent on labour the post-Covid city might be. Although I cannot answer that question, my understanding of the impact that war has on societies, if we compare Covid to a war, is that the US economy may experience slow growth over the next 10 years, maybe even a recession. The Second World War and post-war boom in the US followed a decade of depression, a sort of reverse of the norm, but that is also because the US, isolated from Europe, was the war-free zone in which production in the 1940s could thrive.

If it means businesses downsizing, in some cases closing -if they have not closed already- the city's tax revenues will decline even as demand for social services increases, partcularly if the problem of 'Long Covid' with chronic illnesses becomes a reality. If you add in the pressure locally for New York taxes to increase, consider the fate of the national economy, already borrowing billions to pay for the insane tariffs on China, now swelliing by trillions in unemployment pay, furlough schemes, a stimulus act, and so on. In normal times these levels of debt are unsustainable, and it is still possible the US faces bankruptcy. Biden and Harris have to talk positive about the next four years, but I fear the US will be living with the folly of the last four for a long time. As I have said before, I can't see the US surviving financially without tax rises.

The other point to make is now so basic I wonder why I am saying it: Covid-19 is an airborne virus that thrives in social gatherings. The logical thing to do in order to prevent it speading, is to reduce social gatherings, if not in their entirety, then to reduce them to minimal numbers, with testing and tracking mechanisms that work, so that if someone is infected they and the people they were close to can be traced and told to self-isolate.

I fear that the Haredi are claiming some form of victimisation on religious grounds, but so too have some Roman Catholics, Protestant and other Christian churches, even though in every case there is no absolute law that says God can only be worshipped in a place of worship along with 100 or 1,000 others. So be it a Church, a Synagogue, a sports stadium, a night-club, concert hall, a bus or a train, there really are few options other than shutting them down or reducing social contact in them. In the US, I fear the stand taken by the Haredi in New York may resonate with other religious freedom campaigns which seem to me to be excuses for not abiding by the law with regard to discrimination, but that is for another thread.

The problem now, in the UK as well as the US, is that citizens are no longer prepared to obey the Government. Because Government has not only failed at basic tasks -in the UK, with regard to testing and tracing- there is evidence that backers and friends of those in Government are benefiting finanically as Government awards contracts to firms with ties to Presidents and Prime Ministers. The UK test and tracing system is not run by the NHS but by SERCO (see links below).
People will only go so far with loyalty, if the relationship is not seen to be equal across different communities -hence the Haredi critique of NYC and BLM- that crucial relationship of trust breaks down, restrictions are not followed, and cases of Covid-19 increase again.

Regrettably, the virus that should have been in decline by October, appears alive and well. I expect this virus and its disruptive effects to last until the Spring of 2021, prolonged by Government incompetence and social indifference. If a vaccine emerges by then that is effective, we may at least hope that the second half of 2021 will resemble 2019, as this year is a write-off.

Serco-
https://www.theguardian.com/business...never-heard-of
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...-trace-scheme/

[blackchubby38]

The next question following the first is obvious -if you were to leave NYC where would you go? If your work is based in the city, I assume the suburbs?

Best case scenario, I would move to Westchester, a suburb of NYC that had done a much better job at dealing with the Corona Virus and doesn't have the same restrictions that the city does. At the moment, I'm working from home indefinitely so I would be able to keep my current job.

Adventurous scenario, I would find a new job in another state and relocate. Maybe Ohio or Pennsylvania.

[filghy2]

Restrictions have been applied to religious gatherings.

The point I was getting at was whether these restrictions are more onerous than those applying to other gatherings. If anything they appear to be more lenient, based on the table below.

[broncofan]

I agree with Stavros' view that this is part of a trend where religious groups want to get an exemption from generally applicable laws based on a very broad view of what religious freedom is. I also agree with Filghy that religious gatherings in general have not been restricted more than other gatherings with similar numbers of people.

The only claim that remains is that the law hasn't been applied neutrally. Finding one or two cases where a law hasn't been enforced isn't enough to raise the inference that you've been treated maliciously if it's enforced against you. In discrimination cases such comparisons are used as evidence but the examples have to be pervasive enough to raise an inference that the purpose of the different treatment is to mistreat you rather than be lenient in some other case.

I think the Orthodox Jewish community does have sincere concerns but are mostly wrong here (there are also factions so it's not monolithic; some have raised concerns reasonably and some are batshit crazy and violent). I think some people on the far right have used their concerns to act in bad faith because they think it creates a wedge between anti-racist groups and Jews. Orthodox Jews in NYC did suffer an exceptionally large number of hate crimes last year and it was difficult to have a civil and thoughtful discussion about this because so many people on the right were more interested in stoking anti-Black hatred than trying to address the hate crimes. I'm not going to name names but it really is difficult to take concern about Orthodox Jews seriously from people who are completely accepting of bigotry.

[broncofan]

I think the Orthodox Jewish community does have sincere concerns but are mostly wrong here

Actually I think the Orthodox Jewish community are entirely wrong in this case and should do what they can to comply with public health orders.