Coronavirus

[binneu]

And something for both of you! We will not agree here (about the medical aspects of Corona and how exactly they are to be classified).

But what I do see, and you both apparently don't, is that we are currently dismantling democratic structures and basic rights around the world at a rate never before seen in history.
This, not measurable and little discussed threat does not seem to interest you very much.
Even if that would be the plague I would reject such a democracy and fundamental rights dismantling! We in Germany know very well what this can lead to... and it was always pretended to want to protect us.

[rodinuk]

Just to make something clear! Your side of the Corona-believers wants to turn the whole world upside down (constant tests, vaccinations, lockdowns, green-passes...)! You have to prove meticulously that this is necessary and there are no other possibilities, NOT ME!

No one here has to prove anything to you. Your beef seems to be with the German authorities so take it up with them. If you’re only interested in German figures then don’t come here expecting users here to know about Germany.

Your paranoia however is a bit worrying and you should avoid being in a room with two doctors in....

...and you could work on not ending sentences with the ! character as it lends nothing to any shred of credibility that you may have had before you started your tirade.

[broncofan]

We in Germany know very well what this can lead to... and it was always pretended to want to protect us.

I'm just waking up here. I didn't dislike your post though I understand why others would find this distasteful.

I do think it's relevant you are from Germany since your country has done a better job of dealing with Covid than many European countries and the views you express are more popular here in the U.S. than probably anywhere else. Your chancellor has a doctorate in quantum chemistry, one of the major mrna vaccines was created in partnership with a German company called Biontech, and the ubiquity of home tests for covid in Germany is cited as a model for the rest of the world. Instead of taking pride in some of these accomplishments you see a return to the fascism of the 30s.

I think what enables fascism most, and I say it based on what I've seen in this country (the U.S.), is just a refusal to accept any conventional account of what is going on. You believe you can't understand worldwide data unless you master Arabic and Russian and Hebrew but why stop there? Why not learn Mandarin and Icelandic too? Can we even prove anyone died in these countries if we don't speak their native language? If we can't make any distinction between what is true and what is false we end up just believing whatever is most convenient, regardless of the facts. That's a million times more dangerous than being asked to wear a mask.

The thread risks turning political because you think covid is being used to dismantle fundamental rights but there isn't any evidence of that.

[broncofan]

You also seem to misunderstand the excess mortality data. It's a calculation based on the average number of deaths, which obviously vary from year to year even in normal times. A such, it is only general guide. We know that some other sources of death have been lower than normal due to Covid - eg flu deaths have been low because people are not mixing and road deaths have been low because they are not driving so much.

Good point and keeping this in mind the excess death tables show undercounting is more likely than false attribution.

I don't know what range one would expect the numbers to fall in but if we looked at a five or ten year graph for each country one could get a sense of what the variation has been. Russia has excess deaths that are five times recorded covid deaths. Mexico and U.S. showed significant differences between excess deaths and recorded covid deaths. South Africa as well.

Also, even if the overcounting equaled undercounting (which it doesn't) as binneu suggests that would only suggest that the number of deaths from covid was approximately right. That would still leave 4.5 million more people dead from a novel cause. And though I'm not going to put those numbers on a spreadsheet I did quick math and think the excess death column would be about a million people greater than the recorded covid column.

Binneu also suggests quality of medical care doesn't matter because ventilators often don't save lives (30% of people put on ventilators survive though). Most people put on ventilators do not survive but what about people who are hospitalized and given condensed oxygen without mechanical assistance? Anyone who goes to the hospital with decreased oxygen saturation is given concentrated oxygen. Places that don't have enough hospital beds or who run out of oxygen would probably see higher death rates.

[rodinuk]

Here’s a report from the UK Government comparing the relative deadliness of Covid,Influenza and pneumonia. It is in the English language.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...nd31august2020

[binneu]

No one here has to prove anything to you. Your beef seems to be with the German authorities so take it up with them. If you’re only interested in German figures then don’t come here expecting users here to know about Germany.

Your paranoia however is a bit worrying and you should avoid being in a room with two doctors in....

...and you could work on not ending sentences with the ! character as it lends nothing to any shred of credibility that you may have had before you started your tirade.

Because my numbers do not fit into your world view, you prefer not to talk about it.
I am still waiting for a conclusive answer (which you probably will not provide).

I have already admitted that I do not know the truth... But you and your Corona believers are obviously in possession of the only truth. And if something doesn't fit this truth (Germany over-mortality) then it is simply ignored away instead of the narrative or the course.

[binneu]

I'm just waking up here. I didn't dislike your post though I understand why others would find this distasteful.

I do think it's relevant you are from Germany since your country has done a better job of dealing with Covid than many European countries and the views you express are more popular here in the U.S. than probably anywhere else. Your chancellor has a doctorate in quantum chemistry, one of the major mrna vaccines was created in partnership with a German company called Biontech, and the ubiquity of home tests for covid in Germany is cited as a model for the rest of the world. Instead of taking pride in some of these accomplishments you see a return to the fascism of the 30s.

I think what enables fascism most, and I say it based on what I've seen in this country (the U.S.), is just a refusal to accept any conventional account of what is going on. You believe you can't understand worldwide data unless you master Arabic and Russian and Hebrew but why stop there? Why not learn Mandarin and Icelandic too? Can we even prove anyone died in these countries if we don't speak their native language? If we can't make any distinction between what is true and what is false we end up just believing whatever is most convenient, regardless of the facts. That's a million times more dangerous than being asked to wear a mask.

The thread risks turning political because you think covid is being used to dismantle fundamental rights but there isn't any evidence of that.

I did not speak of 1930, but of the DDR in East Germany.

And if they want to have proof for the abolition of the basic rights then I can send them gladly the German "Infektionsschutzgesetze"... almost all basic rights were abolished.

[binneu]

Here’s a report from the UK Government comparing the relative deadliness of Covid,Influenza and pneumonia. It is in the English language.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...nd31august2020

And what exactly is their conclusion now? There is a German coronavirus and a more dangerous English one?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Federal employees and employees of federal contractors must be vaccinated:
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...760946a6fb89be

[broncofan]

Federal employees and employees of federal contractors must be vaccinated:
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...760946a6fb89be

Good. It's about time they got their microchips.