A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

[peejaye]

A Democrat....I'd of never guessed, I suppose that's what makes you such an expert on British Politics! You know nothing that's happening here.
I'd concentrate on what you're gunna do when Trump gets re-elected again.... hopefully!
Anything that fucks you lot off will always float my boat.

[broncofan]

A Democrat....I'd of never guessed, I suppose that's what makes you such an expert on British Politics! You know nothing that's happening here.
I'd concentrate on what you're gunna do when Trump gets re-elected again.... hopefully!
Anything that fucks you lot off will always float my boat.

You shouldn't have had to guess as I've said it a bunch of times and told you directly in one thread I'm American. Remembering would be easier.

I hope Trump doesn't get re-elected. I donated to Hillary's campaign and also canvassed for her. I would bet that I know more about each of these instances I've posted than you do, although I admit it has been tough trying to figure out context.

I find it very strange that Peter Willsman from NEC said that the complaints shouldn't be taken seriously because the Jewish community has "Trump fanatics" in it. Not only were Jewish people very underrepresented here as Trump supporters, you are a good example of the fact that there are many confused leftists among Corbyn supporters support Trump or see him as a lesser evil. It's a level of confusion I'll never understand, but you are not an anomaly.

Finally, I posted the evidence because it's relevant. The first post claims the MPs didn't have anything to defect over. I pointed out most have complained about institutional anti-Semitism and Brexit. People in the Corbyn movement have been eager to portray the anti-Semitism scandals as confected, or based on protecting Israel. If that were the case, wouldn't some of these comments look like attempts to criticize Israel that were scrutinized in bad faith? I just don't want there to be any confusion. I have seen criticism of Israel unfairly portrayed as anti-Semitism, but this isn't it, and I think conspiracy theorists are relying on the lefts tendency to assume that's the case to mainstream some very dangerous rhetoric.

[Jericho]

The first post pointed to "supposed" institutionalized racism. First of all, I believe nearly every one of the defectors has complained about anti-Semitism

Like I said on the last page, it's fairly obvious the thread is not about Angela Smith's comments as they have only been used as a counterweight to the claims of anti-semitism against Labour and haven't been mentioned since.

The thread was a starting point to the latest development in British politics, and the defectors 'given' reason for leaving the party.
In my opinion, you cannot cite racism within the party as a reason for leaving and then within hours of you first press conference come out with a racist statement and expect to be taken seriously. (We'll get back to Angela Smith and her comments later)


My first post, before you made any assumptions highlights *that*, and that alone. If you want to read anything else into it, that's on you.

But what am I supposed to take from that, so long as it's not anti-Semitism, racisms fine?
Or would you consider that to be jumping to conclusions that were never implied?

Right, now I've got that off my chest......


If you waiting for me to say there's no anti-Semitism in the Labour party, you're going to be waiting a long time.

There is.
There is anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, and racism against Black and Asian minorities.
But right now, it's at an historical low. Lower than when the Party had a Jewish leader, Ed Milliband (And if you want to get outraged, how about taking a pop at the british press for how they destroyed his chances because of his inability to eat a bacon sandwich - Or perhaps you don't think there was a subtext there?)

You mentioned Hatton, I was going to let it go, but since you seem determend. Yes, he appled for membership of the Labour Party - When his comment (a 2012 tweet) came to light, two days later, his mebership was suspended (regarding his comment that all british jews should condemn Israel, don't think they getting singled out, british muslims get the same everytime Daesh/ISIL is in the news, and that aint right, either).

If it's about the defections, then I'm curious about Luciana Berger.

The case of Luciana Berger is indeed troubling and I have no real answer, only background.

Of the prosecuted cases of anti-semitism, two were connected to labour party members, of the oline abuse, we can all speculate, but that's all it would be, speculation.
But, that's no excuse for the way her case was handled, it was abysmally bad.

The two votes of no confidence tabled against her were brought about because of her undermining of the party leadership and refusal to endorse a Labour government in a television inteview, And, the suspicion that she was actively working against the Labour party. Which, by that time, she was.
Both 'offences' grounds for a vote of no confidence by her CLP

Btw, both tabled by Jewish members of Wavertree CLP - But I guess they were the 'wrong type of jews' (Another of Angela Smith's little 'gaffes').

Wavertree cLP were virtually bullied into withdrawing their VONCs by party chairman Tom Watson who defended Berger, and was subsequently left with egg on his face, days later.

It could well be argued that if her case had been handled better, She may not have left, and is probably justified in at least one of her given reasons for leaving.

Of the other defections, in part, a weaponized smear.
(But Even Chuka baulked at calling Jeremy Corbyn an anti-Semite)
What's the best way to cause as much damage as possible.
If someone accuses you of racism, how do you defend against it?
Not me guv, i got a jewish friend! - No, doesn't cut it, does it.

Remember that counterweight you're so fond of?
It swings both ways, did they jump before they were pushed?

You had your first show trial of a Jewish dissident.

That's a disgusting accusation, worthy of your President. I'll not respond to it further.

Since this has devolved into being about anti-Semitism...

Of your citations of anti-Semitism, I agree.
It has no place in the labour party, and more should be done to combat it.
(If you think I'm being conciliatory, don't, i'm not).

To those ends, what can be done?
Labour have already adopted the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism
(How many other Political parties in the United Kingdom have?)

https://labourlist.org/2019/02/jenni...emitism-cases/
Could/should more be done, absolutely.

More to follow...........

[broncofan]

You don't have racism of every kind in your party. There have been eighty elected officials and party officials who have made anti-Semitic comments worthy of a Neo-Nazi forum. By all means, post the number of councilors who have made other types of racist comments. You clearly used Angela Smith's comment to claim all of the Mps including one who was a victim of anti-Semitism was not sincere.

As for a comment worthy of Trump, there is one person in the thread who is a Trump supporter, and it is Peejaye who is also a Corbyn supporter. By all means pretend it's an aberration.

This is not a boast, but I've investigated employment discrimination cases, none of which had to do with anti-Semitism. Your claim that I am only interested in anti-Semitism is crazy and almost seems like a tactic.

There is a long history of people pretending that Jews who are seeking respite from anti-Semitism are really seeking special treatment. Solzhenitsyn, the great Russian writer, wrote that Jews in gulags received special treatment. If there is extra focus on anti-Semitism in your party, it's because not only is it a rampant problem but it comes with the most maddening forms of denial that only exacerbate its effects.

Nobody has talked about the "wrong kind of Jew." What many in your party have done is use people who have Jewish background to traffic in some of the ugliest rhetoric about other Jews imaginable. Elleanne Greene is Jewish and was a signatory recently of a letter on Corbyn's behalf. She was also the administrator of Palestine Live, a forum with rhetoric so ugly it was indistinguishable from a Neo-Nazi forum. I posted the material. You cannot refuse to be acquainted with the facts, mischaracterize them, and expect me to be okay with it just because what you said is coherent even if it's not true.

As for Derek Hatton, I said exactly what you're conceding. Yes, some people claim Muslims should condemn ISIS. They are called out for doing so. They are not defended by the number of people who defended Hatton. They were everywhere. I think you know that. So while what Hatton said about Jews does have an analogue to Muslims, are there lots of people insisting it's fair comment on the left? That would be wrong. Every day I see exactly this sort of comment directed at Jews in Britain. I don't see it here.

I read your first post. It brought up the defecting Mps and their reasons for defecting. It used Angela Smith's wrongful comment as impeachment, and was both dismissive of what they were objecting to and vague. That doesn't mean anti-Semitism isn't a primary issue for them. It is.

BTW, I did write about what was said about Ed Milliband, on this very forum. You're free to be wrong even while you say things that sound superficially convincing but are contradicted by the facts. I'm sure there is more to come.

[broncofan]

About you being conciliatory; You're correct, I read your post again and realized you were just being dishonest. People who say outrageously anti-semitic things are not kicked out of the party. People who are suspended are still given platforms. As I said, Chris Williamson circulated a petition supporting Gilad Atzmon. It's insane that someone would do that. I don't believe he didn't know who Atzmon is.

Since people know when public figures and officials make anti-Semitic statements, they are a decent proxy for the prevalence of anti-Semitism in the party. You acknowledge the statements I put forward were anti-Semitic, but there are many more. They are simply not taken seriously and the party has become so desensitized to anti-Semitism that someone like Jim Sheridan can say he has neither respect nor empathy for Jews and find himself back in the party within four or five months.

The reason I said you're using Angela Smith's comment as a counter-weight is because you are. I called it a racist comment, but you used it to say not only is she not sincere about Labour bigotry but also that neither is anyone else.

And it's hilarious you would say "worthy of (my) president" when I have never supported the guy and have written hundreds of posts about him. Unlike me, Peejaye has written his support of him and you are generally indifferent. I can talk more about Luciana Berger. She was subjected to abuse on twitter, much of which I've seen that was largely based on her Jewishness and her refusal to stick to the script and say it was a minor problem. Every instance of institutional bigotry will come with a pretext. That is the nature of cases like this. Her supposed disloyalty and the abuse she received were practically inextricable and the person who put forward the motion called her a "disruptive Zionist".

You cannot say things that are plainly not true and expect me to go along with it. When you imply that you brought up Angela Smith's comment to discuss racism in general one can go read your first post. It was, as I said, to cast doubt on the sincerity of people complaining about anti-Semitism in your party.

Edit: btw read the first post, which you wrote. It was about defectors from Labour. I've seen two reasons proffered. Brexit and institutional anti-Semitism. You agree with them about Brexit. And as I said, it's fine to use someone's statement to point out hypocrisy for that one person. I have trouble believing you can even pretend anti-Semitism is not a major part of the discussion.

[Jericho]

You don't have racism of every kind in your party. .

Excuse me?

[Jericho]

Nobody has talked about the "wrong kind of Jew."

When Corbyn celebrated passover with ajewish group from his local constituency (jewdas) he was accused of associating with the 'wrong kind of jew" - By Angela Smith.

But hey, there's no other kind of racism in the labour party, Happy Days, eh!


I've indulged you long enough.

Your comment regarding 'show trial' was worthy of your president (whether you support him or not)

Now, racism in the democratic party, is there any?

And as we've come this far down the road, lets go all in.

What's your opinion of the State of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (you did open the door on that, so...)

[peejaye]

This is probably my last post apparently. Just to clear it up; I am NOT a Trump fan, I just like irritating you Political right wing Liberals(UK) & Democrats(US) with your head so far up your own backsides. You really really don't understand people do you? Good riddance to you! Oh & good luck Jericho, the only genuine guy lurking in these very dark pages .....
adios amigos

[broncofan]

Every party will have some racist members and occasional racist scandals. My understanding from reading both articles and looking at the context of each scandal is that anti-semitism in Labour has been in the newsfor months, with an overwhelming percentage of the Jewish community believing it is institutional. I also believed and still believe that the MPs who stepped down were citing anti-semitism in particular as a problem in Labour.

That is not to say there is not some racism of other forms in the party but that you have not had such extreme conduct regarding other bigotry; ie. elected officials engaged in genocide denial, officials praising Hitler, and threatening violence to that community. If you have, then I’d love to talk about it.

There is a history in Labour of responding to claims ofanti-semitism by claiming that Jews are trying to monopolize the conversation.The most egregious example I saw was when a Labour party branch voted down a motion to condemn the synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh, one reason being thatthe language mentioned anti-semitism specifically and not racism generally. Recall, this was in response to a shooting in a synagogue of Jews.

This is the most extreme example but I don’t see the use of arguing that people who believe anti-semitism was a motivation for those stepping down are ignoring other forms of racism is useful or honest. The bigotry in the news and which most of the scandals have involved has been anti-semitism.

The second point regards whether someone is called “the wrong kind of Jew.” I would condemn those words specifically every time but I don’t think the criticism of Corbyn’s Passover was stated in those terms by everyone. The claim was that although the majority of the Jewish community believed there was an anti-semitism problem in Labour, Corbyn reached out to those who don’t believe there is. It is difficult for there to be a rapprochement of any sort with those who feel alienated if you only seek out those in the community who don’t believe there’s a problem.

But if anyone called Jewdas “traitors” or “self-haters” or “the wrong kind of Jew” I condemn that kind of talk completely. My understanding is that the complaint is that Corbyn was attempting to address Jewish concernsonly by seeking out those in the Jewish community who don’t have concerns about Labour.

Finally, my feeling is that the Luciana Berger motion was as close to a sham as I’ve seen. Every case of this sort goes through three stages. There is the initial claim of discrimination or retaliation, there is then the proffer of a legitimate non-discriminatory reason for the decision, and finally the analysis whether the proffered reason is the real reason or a pretext. Here, the first person who put the motion forward made it easy by calling Berger a “disruptive Zionist”. Others wanted a sanitized version to replace it but just because you replace the words doesn’t mean you erase the underlying motive. It was like when Trump came up with his Muslim ban and all sorts of motives were inferred from his election statements. Just because you eliminate them from the text doesn’t mean they didn’t motivate the decision.

There is some racism in the Democratic Party. I haven’t seen a lot of it that is this severe and pervasive, but if shown it I would at least learn what the claims are before dismissing them by discussing the motives ofthe people complaining.

I’ve spoken a little bit about Israel here. I believe Israel is committing continuing human rights violations in the West Bank. I’ve discussed the U.S. withdrawing aid from Israel. I am not and have never been a supporter of Likud or any related parties. I don’t support AIPAC and think that it does have an effect on legislation that is passed.

Peejaye-I don’t know how you can say you’re not a Trump supporter when you told me to focus on what I’d do if he got elected “hopefully”. What’s the hopefully doing there?

[Jericho]

I'm not denying anything, I've openly stated, there *is* a problem with A.S. within the party membership, along with other forms of racism (Case in point, Diane Abbot - The abuse she's received over the years has been absolutely horrific).

But, because of the players involved, with maybe the exception of Berger, I don't believe them when they cite A.S. as their 'reason' for leaving the labour party. But that they've used it as a smear to cause as much damage as possible to the left wing. Weaponizing it, for want of a better word.

You call it counterweight, I call it probable cause.
(They know damn well, If open selection becomes a reality, come the next election, they were gone).

And this is where it gets murky. I don't know how to write this down without it sounding (even to me) like some kind of fantastical conspiracy theory.

You can argue with me, you can disbelieve me, but I genuinely believe that.

And I'm going to have to leave it there for now, it's getting late. But I will try and clarify that tomorrow.