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  1. #1
    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
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    Default A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Seven Shamurai, or "The Blair Rich Project" (as twitter has dubbed them) have splintered from the Labour party and are causing a bit of a stir.

    One of their 'supposed' grievances with the Labour Party leadership is institutionalized racism within the party.

    So it doesn't bode well for their future when within hours of their launching their new party, "The Independent Group", one of their ringleaders, er sorry, i mean, "Spokes Persons" goes on national television and describes ethnic minorities as having a "Funny Tinge",

    https://news.sky.com/story/angela-sm...aunch-11641331


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  2. #2
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Hi Jeri. The BBC as two main objectives; No.1 is to STOP Brexit & No.2 is to destroy, as they call it "Jeremy Corbyns Labour Party", not The Labour Party.
    Personally; I said good riddance to those right wing Liberals, we need rid of the rest now like Hilary Benn, Rachel Reeves etc and replace them with good honest human beings who care about social issues, not Big Business, Billionaires and Banks! The BBC as been using those cunts to beat "JC" with a stick since the day he took charge.
    The laughable thing is; What as this Independence Party got to offer from that other waste of fucking space The Liberal Democrats doesn't already offer? I suspect it's just a "Stop Brexit" Party?... as are the Lib Dems!


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  3. #3
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    I guess I have strong opinions about this but certainly don't want to offend anyone.

    It is impossible to prove that someone's real grievance is racism if when they point to the racism they are accused of an ulterior motive like tax dodging or loyalty to a foreign state. I am aware that the position of Councillor is local but it is an elected one and since there have been literally dozens of Councillors who have said flagrantly antisemitic things you'd think it would represent a decent proxy for the prevalence of it in the party (truthfully it's even worse).

    I'll give just a handful (it is harder off the top of my head but there's a deep reservoir): Holocaust denial, the statement that "Talmuds need executing", the statement that Jews only have synagogue security because of paranoia, a facebook post by a former MP who said that he used to have respect and empathy for Jews but doesn't any longer, the statement that Jewish newspapers have been infiltrated by Mossad, and a recent Labour official who said "Jews start all the wars". That last one was said by Mel Gibson as well, but I'm talking about a Labour official who seemed to like the statement enough to adopt it.

    You'll notice that the statement that he doesn't have "respect or empathy" for Jews by Jim Sheridan seems almost benign in the middle there when in reality he is pretty baldly saying he doesn't like Jews. Ask yourself how a politician can post on his facebook page that he doesn't like Jews and think it would get a good reception? What would happen if he got the reception he expected? And if you think not respecting or empathizing with people is not the same as not liking them, please list the people you like but neither have respect nor empathy for.

    Luciana Berger has faced waves of anti-Semitism directed at her on social media. The Labour party concealed violent threats against her by hiding behind process because they were embarrassed by the bad pr. When she complained about the anti-Semitism and said that she wanted them to deal with the anti-Semitism problem she faced deselection based on a pretext that amounted to a charge of disloyalty to the party and leader.

    And I know that she supports Israel and that some Jews do as well (though what support means needs to be defined) and that several years ago an Israeli in a bar boasted about his influence, which as a Jew is something you never want to do because if you're unlucky others will exaggerate it for you. That one guy cannot be the cause of all of these British political figures saying really ugly things, nor can a large picture of a Jewish woman saying "anti-Semitism is a trick we use" that used to be circulated on neo-Nazi sites be as informative as the rank and file think it is.

    But I'm sure nobody is really offended by the things they've seen, and it's all intended to thwart what could be a glorious government where stooges and traitors are rooted out and exposed.


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  4. #4
    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    I guess I have strong opinions about this but certainly don't want to offend anyone.
    The whole anti-semitism thing get's murkier by the second over here.
    (Coincidentally, A bit like everything connected to the ING.)

    I'm fucked if i can tell the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism any more. I used to think i knew the difference, but when Noam Chomsky gets labelled an anti-Semite....

    Oh, and just for shits and giggles, google 'Joan Ryan one million pounds' (ING defector) (look for the video)).

    I can't even say Oy Vey any more...And if ever two words summed things up perfectly!


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    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    What as this Independence Party got to offer from that other waste of fucking space The Liberal Democrats doesn't already offer? I suspect it's just a "Stop Brexit" Party?... as are the Lib Dems!
    So far, their policies are;

    Stop Brexit (To be honest, I'd be a hypocrite if i said I was against that)
    Split the vote and keep the tories in power (A bit like the old Gang of 4)
    Carry on with 'Austerity'.
    And, erm, I think that's about it at the moment.

    Apparently, they've now been joined by three tories. Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston, and Anne Soubry (The same Anne Soubry who called Ed Milliband a cunt in parliament)

    Oh, and apparently, one of the Labour defectors (unnamed as yet) has tried to access the Party Members Address Database.

    Interesting times.


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  6. #6
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
    The whole anti-semitism thing get's murkier by the second over here.
    (Coincidentally, A bit like everything connected to the ING.)

    I'm fucked if i can tell the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism any more. I used to think i knew the difference, but when Noam Chomsky gets labelled an anti-Semite....

    Oh, and just for shits and giggles, google 'Joan Ryan one million pounds' (ING defector) (look for the video)).

    I can't even say Oy Vey any more...And if ever two words summed things up perfectly!
    I can tell the difference. There is a two thousand year history you could use as guidance.

    I've seen really egregious instances of anti-Semitism that people will swear is only criticism of Israel. We've seen it on this site even. Some guy named Daphne something claimed a person can't criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic. He then praised Hitler and I called him anti-Semitic. Like a conspiracy theorist he felt his point was proven. But did I say he was anti-Semitic because he praised Hitler or for his criticism of Israel? An enduring mystery.

    Here's a tip: if someone is accusing a random Jewish people of working for a foreign state and has no evidence, that is anti-Semitic. If a Jewish person points to one of the super egregious examples of anti-Semitism I posted above and is accused of only objecting to it in order to defend Israel, that's anti-Semitic. Israel is by many being used as a pretext to harass random Jewish people.

    Let's try this one out for size. Derek Hatton, who was recently admitted to the Labour party and today suspended again said, "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel." That statement includes a criticism of Israel but insist that British Jews have a special obligation to condemn a state they've never lived in. Does somebody of Iranian descent who has never lived in Iran have to condemn Iran when they hang innocent people? Or is this a unique thing...

    Is Noam Chomsky anti-Semitic? I don't think so. Is he a good character witness to say the Labour party is not anti-Semitic? I can't think of a worse one. Noam Chomsky once said that Robert Faurisson is not anti-Semitic and that he sees no "anti-Semitic implication in Holocaust denial." Not even an implication! One thing I know is that being Jewish does not mean someone cannot say something anti-Semitic. Gilad Atzmon, who is Jewish, said that to burn a synagogue is a rational act. That's anti-Semitic no matter who says it.

    The other thing those mps are against is the spread of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. I've seen Labour members on twitter with timelines of JC support who read David Icke. I've seen some who defend Gilad Atzmon. It's gotten to the point where every Jewish person who complains about anti-Semitism is then accused of some nefarious action. For a conspiracy theorist, the idiotic claims they spread are self-proving.

    I'm just curious Jericho: Did you read my first post and the examples I provided? I can't find left-wing politicians in the U.S., even at the local level, who have said similar things. I can find right-wingers who do, but nobody on the left. Were any of those ambiguous?


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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    Derek Hatton, who was recently admitted to the Labour party and today suspended again said, "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel." That statement includes a criticism of Israel but insist that British Jews have a special obligation to condemn a state they've never lived in. Does somebody of Iranian descent who has never lived in Iran have to condemn Iran when they hang innocent people? Or is this a unique thing...
    Now that Hatton has been suspended Corbyn twitter is filled with people who think the statement is normal. Would it be normal to demand any other ethnic minority condemn a state they've never lived in and aren't citizens of? I know it happens, but would it ever be considered by those on the left to be an acceptable demand? Jews have been in Britain since Oliver Cromwell. Why should there be any assumption about what they think of Israel nor demands that they speak with one voice on any issue?


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  8. #8
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    A few points to make about the defections and what has motivated them.

    1) I think it is too early to know if the Labour and Tory defections are a blip, or the beginning of a re-alignment in party politics. When the 'Gang of Four' walked out of Labour in 1981, the Labour Party had adopted as party policy Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament and withdrawal from the European Union, it was also engaged in an ongoing reform of party democracy that had begun with the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy in the 1970s, but was twisting in and out of absurd positions because of the Trade Unions block voting at Conference; and the 'Gang of Four' were senior and experienced politicians three of whom were household names. Against them was the Thatcher government at its weakest, having presented Parliament with a budget of such savage cuts even Chancellor Geoffrey Howe later conceded he might have gone too far. 1981 was also the year the reform of Education was begun which transformed university departments into commercial enterprises in some cases, in others split them ideologically, and in others led to complete closures -but who needs Classics, right? And note: Labour lost, and the SDP was a major success before it imploded with a poor party organization and personality squabbles. And it was Thatcher who went on to win two more elections.

    For these defections to mean anything, other than a protest, at least 30 or more Labour MPs need to leave, and I would suggest an equivalent number of Tories too. In Labour, this must put pressure on deputy leader Tom Watson and Yvette Cooper, and they must calculate soon if they can rescue Labour as Neil Kinnock did in the 1980s or give up on the basis that Labour is now so thoroughly in the control of Momentum it is not possible to be a social democrat and remain a member.

    2) Anna Soubry has alleged the Conservative Party has been infiltrated by UKIP, ex-UKIP members and who knows who else -and she is right. An organizing force in this, the Leave.eu campaign group openly boasts about its intentions and its achievemets. On its website it boasts that 25,000 people have joined Conservative Associations in England with the sole purpose of de-selecting MPs, identified once as 'the Dirty Dozen' there are now 13 on their list, labelled 'Traitors' just in case you weren't sure why. Note too the language that calls for people to 'make the Conservatives Conservative again'. We all know where that comes from, and it is no surprise that behind this campaign is Aaron Banks, long-time 'bad boy of Brexit', personal friend of Nigel Farage, a so-called 'multi-millionaire' who met the Russian ambassador five times during the 2016 campaign -but not the US Ambassador who one asssumes was not interested, ditto Nigeria, Chile, Japan and so on- and who could not possibly have been given a USP stick which he gave to Nigel to gave it to Julian Assange. Note too that on the Leave.eu website Damian Collins is on the right, the Chairman of the House of Commons Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport who called in Banks and his colleague Andy Wigmore to explain their involvement in the 2016 Referendum, the two of them walking out half-way through with smirks on their faces, treating Parliament with contempt. Aaron Banks is an anti-Conservative, having been banned from joining his local Conservative Association in North-West Leicestershire.

    This is not a conspiracy, it is an open campaign by refugees from UKIP and points right to enter the Conservative Party to target anyone who does not regard the 2016 Referendum result as scripture, while the language of betrayal and worse is unworthy of even the Conservative Party. Crucially, Theresa May has failed to take action to have identifiable people expelled from the party just as she has failed to prevent the European Research Group becoming a 'party inside the party' with its ties to the Republican government in the USA -we still do not know what was said to them at a secret meeting last September attended by John Bolton who violated basic diplomatic protocol by not informing the British Government he was attending a meeting in Parliament -not that he cares about protocol.
    https://leave.eu/deselect-these-shameful-tory-mps/

    3) The point about May is relevant to Labour because Jeremy Corbyn has failed to combat the anti-semitism in the party, apparently delegating the responsibility to people who, like him 'do not expel socialists from a socialist party' which is what Corbyn and others said of Derek Hatton and Militant in the 1980s. The reluctance to take serious action has both undermined the party and smeared it with a reputation which in some cases it might not deserve, but in others is cruelly exposed as an undeniable truth.
    Even if you factor in the hopeless shambles Labour has made of Brexit -voting for the Referendum in 2015, votig in favour of Article 50 and the Withdrawal Act in 2017, then utterly incapable of producing a coherent Brexit plan other than 'a Customs Union arrangement' that is EU membershp in all but name contradicts its own policy, you may say well Brexit is harder than anyone thought -but this is supposed to be the official Opposition to the Government not its official Butler.

    As for the anti-semitism, read the quotes below and weep, from the House of Commons debate on anti-semitism. The link has the moving speech by Luciana Berger, but the unedited examples provided by Ruth Smeeth MP are nails in this coffin. Are those using Labour hashtags actual members? I assume so. Maybe Labour should cancel all its twitter feeds, but if the issue of Israel and the Palestinians is at the core, then the urgent task of holding Israel to account for its governance of the Occupied Territories - and the Palestinian authority for its rank incompetence- is actually being ignored for a campaign that is simply abuse and nothing else, and that is not politics. Thus, Smeeth records the abuse she has received from people using Labour or Labour identified twitter accounts:

    “Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity.”
    “Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed.”
    “Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down.”
    “First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party.”
    “This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types.”
    “#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour.”
    “You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn.”
    “Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I’m ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken.”
    “Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth.”
    “The gallows would be a fine and fitting place for this dyke piece of Yid shit to swing from.”

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/common.../Anti-Semitism

    Had I not left the Labour Party when I did in 1987, I would certainly not be a member now. And I am pleased to say I have not voted for it since 1997; I am utterly dismayed at what has happened to a party with such a noble, honourable tradition of promoting and defending human rights, but a party that has now stabbed the people of this country in the back and is unfit to govern.

    We may be on the cusp of the most fundamental shift in party politics since the emergence of the Labour Party in 1900. That both Labour and Conservative parties are in crisis means either they will get through it somehow, or fall apart. But if the latter, and we don't know how Brexit will affect the system, my biggest fear is that the gap between them will be filled with some kind of populist, English party that parrots the 'Globalism' or 'Patriotism' agenda that is poisoning 243 years of democracy in the US and undermining democracy in Europe. And for what? Some ideal vision of purity? Socialism? A country free of foreigners? We are facing a long term transition in capitalism which is challenging the old ways in which we have worked, and this rump of neo-Nazis, fascists and dried-out Leninists want to re-stage the battles of the 20th Century using the language of hatred and confrontation?

    Obama said it: We are better than this. And we are. But we are caught somewhere between hope and despair, and in the UK right now there is little to hope for.


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    Last edited by Stavros; 02-21-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  9. #9
    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    I'm just curious Jericho: Did you read my first post and the examples I provided? I can't find left-wing politicians in the U.S., even at the local level, who have said similar things. I can find right-wingers who do, but nobody on the left. Were any of those ambiguous?
    I tend to assume people will naturally read between the lines. I'll try and be more specific and less facetious this time (and hopefully, not use too many 'but's).

    But, why are we talking about anti-Semitism anyway?
    She was talking about the 'funny tinge' of BAME minorities, but we've slipped into this.

    Aside from that, For the most part, I'm in total agreement with you.
    (Maybe we should start a separate thread?)

    But, As I said, things over here are getting murky and lines are blurring!

    Of your examples, obviously, the one I'm most familiar with is Luciana Berger. No ifs or buts about that, the abuse she's received was/and is fucking disgraceful, and it's been handled dreadfully.

    Now, does that make Luciana Berger above genuine criticism of her performance as a Labour mp, a Labour MP who was about to jump ship?

    Apparently, it does.
    There's no middle ground. You criticise her now, you're an anti-Semite, no ifs, buts, or explanations.
    And that's not right either, no one is above criticism (IMO, except me of course...And who ever's holding atm.)

    And that's what's going on over here right now.
    You mentioned Hatton, and i agree, but, if people want to, it's not hard to turn that argument on it's head.


    btw, granted my history's a little sketchy, but I think Jews were here long before Cromwell!


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: A Strange Tinge To British Politics At The Moment

    Fair point about Cromwell. We were there and then we weren't and then we were.

    I apologize that I've focused on anti-Semitism when that's not the entire topic. Angela Smith's racist comment is relevant, but I'm not sure I agree that the thread was completely about her comment. My interpretation is that it's about the break away Labour politicians who stated as their primary grievances anti-Semitism and Brexit.

    I think Angela Smith's comment is being used to claim that she is hypocritical and that her stated reason for leaving (institutionalized racism) couldn't be her real reason. And while I don't consider bigotry to other groups any less serious, isn't the point of bringing up Smith's comment to assert that she's hypocritical? It's impeachment of her credibility rather than the central issue. And since you agreed with the splitters about Brexit, doesn't that kind of narrow down the debate . Anyhow, I think your last point was conciliatory, so I will follow in suit and concede some things.

    A prominent twitter person called someone anti-Semitic because they had 88 in their screen name. 88 is sometimes code for Heil Hitler because h is the eighth letter of the alphabet. It was not my pleasure to inform this person that it was a thousand times more likely that the person they were arguing with was born in 1988 than that they were a Hitler lover. I have seen claims of anti-Semitism that I disagree with. Some were in good faith but way off base and by people who know nothing and some were in bad faith. I do believe it muddies the waters but I try pretty hard to point out things that look more like disguised abuse or something way over the line.

    I'd also point out that while of course it's fair game to criticize Berger even while you feel bad about things said to her, I think there is a nexus between her perceived lack of loyalty and the abuse she's received. How much of the anger at her was at least partly based on her being very unhappy about this issue that affected her personally? But, yeah, if she really was someone who showed up to work drunk and high and didn't do anything, of course the fact that she's received abuse wouldn't make it out of bounds to point it out. My sense was that she's a very dedicated public servant who was very ticked about this issue and therefore seen as a thorn in the side of the party;


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