US Elections 2020

[Stavros]

I think it is you who has the credibility gap. You seem to have overlooked the fact that Civil Rights legislation was implemented by a Democrat President and Congress, along with many other things that have happened since then.

In addition to which that legislation was supported by many Republican members of House and Senate, which is why I think the 1960s is the pivotal decade in US politics in recent times.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=MrFanti;1935412]
Democrats also have a credibility gap as they have tried to deny and/or skew their developing of Jim Crow Laws and Segregation (which the latter Joe Biden supported). -
--One one level you are right, as history shows that Democrats in the South maintained segregation for most of the 100 years that passed between the end of the Civil War and the Civil Rights laws of 1965. You probably know that in the 1860s Democrats in the South wanted a Federal Slave Regulation Code rather than abolition, and that its rejection by Northern Democrats illustrated their fatal weakness. But you also know that over that 100 years the Republican and Democrat parties changed fundamentally, mostly because of the industrial revolution that transformed the geography of the lower 48, and that just as the Republicans became associated with the rich of Wall St, so with Roosevellt the Democrats became the party of blue collar workers, thus attracting Black Americans in the age when they had work, and crucially, the dignity of work. But crucial too is the fact that as the economy recovered, the Democrats were able to retain their support though I admit I don't know if more Black Americans voted for Eisenhower than had voted Republican before.
The killer for the Democrats, is that when LBJ embarked on his reforms in the 1960s, almost en masse the 'Dixiecrats' turned Red, and the South became a 'safe haven' for the Republicans. It is a fascinating transformation that begs questions about political culture in the US. You have the moral compromise in which Democrats accepted segregation as a 'fact of life' while supportig the emerging civil rights movement: the moral support undermined by practical inaction prior to LBJ.
You have the vicious opposition in the South to JFK as a Catholic, so that on hearing the news of his assassination, children in a Texas school broke into cheers and applause. You have, consequent to Civil Rights law, not just a growing and systemic opposition to all that rights legislation provided, but a growth in so-called 'Evangelical Christianity' which buttressed the foundational idea that Christianity is 'the very breath of American history'.
Allen Matusow, in The Unraveling of America (1984) provides a deep and sharply critical account of the 'Liberalism' of the 1960s that helps explain the ways in which the South changed, in which the issues unleashed in the 1960s so polarised opinion across the country, it was only a matter of time before someone like Gingrich could weaponise it, and make bi-partisan decision-making a form of treason -to his idea of Republican virtue.

The main stream media is dominated by Democrat based media so of course, the general public is going to a skewed view of Independents and Libertarians.
-What is the mainstream media, and does it include Fox News? I don't know a lot about it, but it seems to me that more and more Americans, probably a majority under the age of 30, don't watch it, and get their news from social media or sites like The Daily Beast or even Breitbart, which is not so much a news feed as a propaganda tool for extremists.
You are probably right with regard to the exposure of Lbertarian ideas in the media, but is it the case that MSM regularly interviews the Marxists who do want a revolution in the USA?

Look at the mayor history of these 3 major cities that have been run into the ground; Detroit, Chicago, and Baltimore. All 3 have continuous decades of mayors from the Democrat party - and not one single Independent, Libertarian, or Republican. So as Eric July (the Black Libertarian) stated in the video, to blame the Republicans for the failures of these cities makes absolutely no sense. And as far as Independents are concerned, Ross Perot IMHO would have made an excellent US President.
-Yes, but. What Detroit, Chicago and Baltimore share is their experience of industrial capitalism since the 1960s, summed up in the loss of blue collar jobs. In part due to automation in the motor industry, in part to over-capacity in the steel industry, the truth is there never were 'jobs for life' in those three cities, and as the city revenues declined so the struggle to provide services in education as well as maintaining jobs has hit these cities hard.
The key factor has been an aversion to taxation, with the consequence that Democrats are just as scared of taxes as Republican claim they don't need them. New York City was in crisis in the 1960s and 1970s when companes moved to New Jersey to avoid paying city taxes, but revived when Globalization made New York the epicentre of a financial revolution that made so much money the city could attract companies back without the fear of punitive taxation- throw in the demand for quality accommodation in Manhattan and you can see how the Borough was transformed. But in this sense, New York is blessed because of Wall St, where Baltimore is cursed because its source of jobs, in Steel, in the Dockyards, evaporated between the 1960s and 2008 -and with the continuing growth of AI and the social impact of Covid 19, the question now is whether cities can survive as they have before, or if the epicentre of State economies is going to move to the suburbs where people work from home.

And if you take away the dignity of work, what is left to sustain the person's valuation of themselves?

And what happened in Kansas when the Republican Governor decided to slash taxes? Within six months the state was almost bankrupt. And if the three cities you put in the dock have had Democrat Mayors that have failed to revive the economy to 1950s levels, why are so many Red states now dependent on Government contracts in the Defence industry, or loans to the tune of $12-14 billion a year to compensate farmers who have lost their jobs owing to tariffs on China? You are homing on Democrats when the villain in all this is, as usual, capitalism. Where is the honest critique of capitalism as it currently functions in the US?

While I'm NOT a Trump supporter, your last statement is completely incorrect when you look at the growing number of Black voters that have/had left the Democrat party and voting for Trump. But I don't blame you because as I continually say, the Main Stream US media does not show Independent/Libertarian/Conservatives which is why your last statement is incorrect - you have a slanted view (thanks to the main stream media) of the Black community. And an interesting side note. Whether you're for Trump or despise him, his Prison Reform Act GREATLY helped Black Americans and most recently, his restoration of funding to historically Black Colleges (that ironically, was slashed by the Obama administration) has also helped the Black community as well and ***could*** explain (in part), the reason of the increase in Black voters to Trump.
-Not a cop out but I don't know enough about these issues to debate them, though I believe Obama was the first President to actually visit a Federal penitentiary, and was concerned about the volume of prisoners incarcerated for trivial crimes, with many prisoners there because of the Clinton era 'reforms' that created a permanent criminal caste, unable to shake off their convictions to vote or get a job.

The Black community is also divided on what exactly BLM actually means - and if you've seen CNN, I happen to side with Terry Crews and NOT Don Lemon. Statistically speaking, 6 children under the age of 10 were shot and killed by other Black Americans this past weekend. Where is "our" outrage over this (these types of senseless killings by "us") that has gone on for DECADES?
-I can't comment on this as I don't watch CNN and don't know who Terry Crews and Don Lemon are.

I get the police brutality aspect of it but GUESS WHAT? Statistically speaking, I as a Black man have a much greater chance of being killed by another Black man than I do by law enforcement........So yes, I stand on Terry Crew's side....
-Do you not have an even greater chance of dying in a road traffic accident? Maybe it is time to bite the bullet on the 2nd Amendment and begin the agonising process of taking away the guns....

As for my last comment, you have not in fact addressed it: if the Republican Party has done so much for Black Americans, why are so few Black Republicans to be seen in Congress or the White House, compared to GW Bush who promoted Powell and Rice? There are many issues we have not touched on, and I do accept that it is facile to pigeon-hole Black Americans, or indeed, White Americans, but I feel that since the 1960s, the political culture of your country has embraced divisive ideologies that have deep roots, because Race has so permeated American life it is all but impossible to dilute it.
It is tragic, because beyond the cruelty, the hate and the mind-numbing ignorance, there are still so many things you should celebrate in the US. As I think I said in another thread, watching both the film Hidden Figures, and a documentary on NASA is to be reminded of what can be done when Americans produce something greater than themselves, when they respect each other as themselves.

[MrFanti]

As for my last comment, you have not in fact addressed it: if the Republican Party has done so much for Black Americans, why are so few Black Republicans to be seen in Congress or the White House, compared to GW Bush who promoted Powell and Rice?.

These are choices made by each individual POTUS that I can't answer. As far as congress is concerned, I would say that in part, it's due to the mis-information that many Black Americans have.

But remember, whether you agree or disagree with the current POTUS, the Prison Reform Act and restoration of funding has greatly helped Black Americans - and to be brutally honest, it amazes me that the Obama administration did NOT implement Prison Reform.

Now here's the kicker.

Under the Obama Administration, the LGBTQ and Hispanic communities definitely benefitted WAY MORE than they have under the Trump administration.

HOWEVER...

Under the Trump Administration, the Black community has benefitted more than they did under the Obama administration.

Now let's let's plug in the Black Church - which has been a huge framework within the Black community (despite MANY people on this forum mocking religion - if you want to understand Black America, then you have to understand the role of the Black Church within Black America)

And finally to conclude, more food for thought.
This video represent an aspect of Black America that you will not see via Democrat dominated mainstream media - and thus I'll continue to say that unfortunately, the result continues to be that folks like you continue to get as skewed and slanted view of the Black American community...

As "blackchubby38" said..."we are not monolithic" - And I'll we continually are portrayed as monolithic and that simply isn't the case.

[MrFanti]

As for my last comment, you have not in fact addressed it: if the Republican Party has done so much for Black Americans, why are so few Black Republicans to be seen in Congress or the White House, compared to GW Bush who promoted Powell and Rice? There are many issues we have not touched on, and I do accept that it is facile to pigeon-hole Black Americans, or indeed, White Americans, but I feel that since the 1960s, the political culture of your country has embraced divisive ideologies that have deep roots, because Race has so permeated American life it is all but impossible to dilute it.

Addendum: Here's some additional food for thought.
The Black Democrat community LOVES Malcolm X - and of course, its understandably why.

HOWEVER, once again, a VERY IMPORTANT belief of Malcom X is conveniently ignored and/or omitted that if Blacks truly knew about and understood, then you might see more Black Independents/Libertarians/Republicans in congress.
Lucky for us, digital media has it preserved.

Now just listen to this speech by Malcom X....

[broncofan]

I can't know for certain why there aren't more Black Republicans. It is possible that having an attorney general in Jeff Sessions who wanted to prosecute universities with affirmative action programs for civil rights infractions when white supremacist groups are rampant in this country is one reason. Maybe because the Republican President wants to preserve Confederate statues, has come out in defense of the Confederate flag, and dogwhistles anti-Black racism. BTW one can disagree with affirmative action without thinking we should prosecute universities for civil rights infractions for trying to make their student bodies more diverse. That said, I have no criticism for Black Republicans that I wouldn't have for Republicans generally. I'm just pointing out that I'm not overly surprised Republicans are not popular with most minority groups.

I just want to finish by saying I called Kanye a megalomaniac. He's worse than that. He's a complete fool. https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/st...23740780236801

[MrFanti]

I can't know for certain why there aren't more Black Republicans. It is possible that having an attorney general in Jeff Sessions who wanted to prosecute universities with affirmative action programs for civil rights infractions when white supremacist groups are rampant in this country is one reason. Maybe because the Republican President wants to preserve Confederate statues, has come out in defense of the Confederate flag, and dogwhistles anti-Black racism. BTW one can disagree with affirmative action without thinking we should prosecute universities for civil rights infractions for trying to make their student bodies more diverse. That said, I have no criticism for Black Republicans that I wouldn't have for Republicans generally. I'm just pointing out that I'm not overly surprised Republicans are not popular with most minority groups.

I just want to finish by saying I called Kanye a megalomaniac. He's worse than that. He's a complete fool. https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/st...23740780236801

I would say it goes back to the Malcolm X speech in that Black Americans simply ignored and/or didn't listen to Malcolm X

Basically, Malcom X is saying that "we" don't have to vote Republican - but we should not vote Democrat like a bunch of lemmings every election.
Case in point are cities/mayor issues of cities 'run into the ground' as Libertarian Eric July stated and I said, the election data of Chicago, Detroit, and Baltimore prove both X's and July's points.

And to be honest, Black America wants to get more action rather than mouth from the Democratic Party, then IMHO, Black America should in mass for the next Independent candidate.

HOWEVER, there are elements within the BLM movement that want to establish a separate "BLM" political party. IF this happens (a separate BLM political party), then my guess is that you'd see the Democrats in full panic mode and actually start doing things rather than mouthing things.

That being said, there are more Black Republicans amongst the people/voters than what a lot of people think & that number is slowly growing...

[blackchubby38]

I think the main reason why there aren't more black Republicans is because the party is primarily responsible for the one thing that has had a negative impact on the black and Latino community for over 40 years. Something that has been complete and abject failure. Despite that failure, it is still going on today.

That would be the war on drugs. It started with Nixon, but kicked in the high gear under both Reagan and H.W. Bush. You can argue that it helped contribute to the fractured relationship between the police and the black community. It led to the creation of unfair prison sentencing laws. It caused a domino effect that led to the passing of the 1994 Crime Bill. Which as I have said before, parts of which that I don't have a problem with. But that law was definitely passed with the war on drugs in mind.

Also while I'm all in favor of the Prison Reform being passed. Lets be perfectly honest about something. The main reason why some Republicans have had an epiphany on the war on drugs is because of the impact the opioid epidemic has had on their base. Or more importantly, the children and the grandchildren of their base.

[blackchubby38]

I would say it goes back to the Malcolm X speech in that Black Americans simply ignored and/or didn't listen to Malcolm X

Basically, Malcom X is saying that "we" don't have to vote Republican - but we should not vote Democrat like a bunch of lemmings every election.
Case in point are cities/mayor issues of cities 'run into the ground' as Libertarian Eric July stated and I said, the election data of Chicago, Detroit, and Baltimore prove both X's and July's points.

And to be honest, Black America wants to get more action rather than mouth from the Democratic Party, then IMHO, Black America should in mass for the next Independent candidate.

HOWEVER, there are elements within the BLM movement that want to establish a separate "BLM" political party. IF this happens (a separate BLM political party), then my guess is that you'd see the Democrats in full panic mode and actually start doing things rather than mouthing things.

That being said, there are more Black Republicans amongst the people/voters than what a lot of people think & that number is slowly growing...

I think for the most part Democrats have done things for the black community. But what they have done and the impact it has had, is whole different discussion for another day.

When it comes to BLM, I don't see them forming their own party. What I can see happening is that between them and the Democratic Socialists of America taking over the Democratic party and forcing the moderates and even some liberals out of it. I think this will especially happen if Biden, a candidate that they didn't want in the first place loses to Trump in November.

While I think in short term that would be bad for the country, in the long term it might be want this country needs Maybe the moderates from both parties will come together and give people who are sick and tired of partisan politics a third option at the polls.

[trish]

We are effectively a two party nation. If you don't vote Democratic, then you're handing the election to the Republicans. If you want representation you've got to take over a major party or at least establish your power within a major party. That's what evangelists did, what tea-baggers did, what gun nuts did and what Trump exploited. It may be harder to do in the Democratic Party because it's larger and more diverse. Than again maybe that'll make it easier. Liberals voting third party is always bad news.

[MrFanti]

What I can see happening is that between them and the Democratic Socialists of America taking over the Democratic party and forcing the moderates and even some liberals out of it. I think this will especially happen if Biden, a candidate that they didn't want in the first place loses to Trump in November.

While I think in short term that would be bad for the country, in the long term it might be want this country needs Maybe the moderates from both parties will come together and give people who are sick and tired of partisan politics a third option at the polls.

I generally agree with you here (not completely but I see where you're coming from)
And I'll add that the reason why both Trump and Sanders rose to power is due to BOTH parties being sick of 'partisan politics' (like you stated) - and additionally, BOTH parties being tired of establishment politicians.
Trump is not a Republican just like Sanders is not a Democrat - each just picked a side that would give them the best chance of winning.