If you can suck girl cock, will you suck guy cock?

[Ecstatic]

Look guys... The simple fact is that transgendered people have a gender identity that does not match their physical body. For mtf that means we male genitalia and our perceptions of ourselves are female. Some of us chose to 'correct' nature's mistake (like a host of other birth defects) and others simply live as they are. It then follows that a man that sucks a penis is having homosexual contact, regadless of what it's attached to.... I know this is jarring, but this is currently the paradigm that our society operates under. It's not ideal, but that's the way it breaks down.

A man cannot be performing fellatio unless he's engaging in homosexual contact.

Well, eclipse, I guess it's back to idealism for me, then. I'll always favor the ideal over the real, while remaining aware of the real in order to help effect change towards the ideal. IF you define sexuality solely on the basis of the physical body, then one human being with a penis making love with another human being with a penis is perforce engaging in homosexual sex. However, to continue the logic, since male genitalia derives from the prenatal transmutation of genitalia due to the presence of a Y chromosome in the genetic makeup of the fetus, then by definition any human being with a Y chromosome is male, whether said human being has undergone sexual reassignment surgery or not. That's the biological fact, and it is, as such, inescapable (setting aside intersexed people such as those with Klinefetter's syndrome). To allow that a male who has had SRS is now female is to allow an exception to the biological rule based on that person's deeply rooted desire to be fully female and society's tacit acceptance of this transition based on the degree of transformation the person was willing to undergo to achieve it, coupled with the simplistic fact that the most obviously male characteristic of the person has been made to look and, to a very limited degree, behave like the most obviously female characteristic. But other male characteristics persist (based on the Y chromosome), and a great many female characteristics will never be realized.

I accept such a transformation, but many people (and societies) do not. However, I think that such a transformation can and does occur for someone who has not undergone SRS in the literal sense but who does inherently believe herself to be female in gender and lives her life fully as a female. To me, a non-op transwoman is still a woman if she sees herself that way. You will probably object, but I think this is true regardless of the type of sex she enjoys: if she likes her penis and enjoys topping men, she's still female. Since as shown above the definition of female is elastic and based in behavior rather than strictly in biology (else we must define an mtf transsexual who has undergone SRS as still being male), why is it so difficult to extend that elastic definition to include those who have not?

So yes, by the definition you give, any time two human beings with penises make love, they are engaging in homosexuality. So what? That limited definition really isn't helpful. To me, the gender definition is far more important. IF two people with penises make love and one of them is a transwoman who sees herself in all other respects as female, then to me the sex act is not homosexual. Call it bisexual if you must, or heterosexual if you will. To me the relationship is hetero (or as Felicia suggested, heteroflexible).

However, there is a difference here between the nature of the sex involved between a transwoman and a man from this perspective and that of the man trying to justify his actions regardless of her perspective. I think some men who love TS's are in denial and are either gay or bisexual and don't want to admit it even to themselves. But I also think that some men who love TS's are well aware of their own sexuality and gender id and really are not attracted to other men at all. That's a personal issue, and up to the individual to face if he wants to be honest with himself.

Me, I'm a happily omnisexual heteroflexible bisexual loving fool with a preference for beautiful T's but an attraction to women and an enjoyment of men. "Jaya Guru Deva Om: Nothing's gonna change my world."

[LBCDO]

I read and reread this thread and I dont think you understand where shade is coming from. I have said it millions of times over, if you actually kick, have a friendly/nonsexual relationship wiht a few TSs, then you can understand where she is coming from! At least from what I believe what part of society she is in.

I consider myself someone raised in the urban hispanic community and I have had few problems talking to the girls because I relate to them better than most because we have lots of nonsexual interest that are similiar. So usually I get to meet girls and they dont have problems telling me basic friends stuff, like why certain types of guys are problems, etc. which has helped me with my TS relationships

This is why the "labels" are such a big deal. If you are going after a TS for anything more than sex, then it is a problem that they are comfortable to be 100% of who they are 100% of the time and you cant fully come to terms that there is something at least A LITTLE homosexual about your behavior.

Sheeba, a good GOOD friend of mine once told me "Why do these guys call my dick a clit? Its a dick, I dont want to hear that shit. I know who I am, what I am, and cant nobody change reality." These girls know who they are and how real they are to it. WTF makes you think that they want some dude who cant even admit that there is something at least a little homosexual about sucking a dick no matter what it is attatched to. I think some of you missed some valid words in what shade posted earlier. If some of you guys were so straight, why not come out to and show your Tranny mistresses to your friends or brothers or families? I mean, if your straight, and only TSs are quick to pick such labels, then why not? Im sure some of you brag about the nice piece of trim you picked up at the bar a couple of weeks ago, why not tell the war story about the TS who rammed your ass right after you begged to suck her TClit? If it is so "straight" why do you hide it? And that is why girls get pissed, or thats why I believe so. Because a lot of guys dont want to come to terms with what they like. The TSDenial stage.

Yall want my label? Call me bi. I dont care. MY TS friends know Im not attracted to men, I fuck GGs and TSs and dont really hide it. When you come to terms with that, then you will be better off. All she is saying is be as honest with yourself as a TS. They dont do it for fun, sex, money, they do it for being emotionally content, and if they know you are 1 of the millions of "Oh, Im straight, but like to suck dick, ect" then it makes you thnk twice. Sorry, just the way it is

[anothervoyeur]

I still think many of you are missing an important point. Society likes to lump "sexual attraction" and "romantic attraction" together with the same labels, when, in fact, there's a great deal of variation.

In fact, you can even add a third variable, which would be "activity attraction", which is a "What do you do" kind of thing.

So, yes, you can be straight, but suck cock. The term I use for that is "heteroflexible" or, in my case, "slut". I honestly don't find myself romantically attracted to men, nor do I find them attractive.

I find women generally attractive, whether TS or TG or GG, as long as there's some effort made on their part to differentiate themselves from being men (you know, like, shaving).

But, put me in the right situation, sure, I'll bend over. Or I'll suck that. Not caring especially about looks is what puts me into the "slut" category. It's a label I accept, willingly.

But I digress. Again, my comment was meant to remind folks that sex and love are two different things, and desires for one are not always transitive between them.

[Ecstatic]

LBCDO, what it boils down to for me is two things: 1) to see and relate to a tgirl as she sees herself and wants to be seen and related to, and 2) to be honest with myself about my own sexuality. 2) is easier: I know me, and I am happy with who and what I am. Bisexual is the general term, which I happily accept; omnisexual or heteroflexible if you want to be clever about it and/or accept the possibility of subtypes beyond the basic three (hetero, homo, bi). I have no denial there, and will proudly tell anyone who asks or whose business it is (though I see no point in wearing a big sign proclaiming my bisexuality).

1) is more complicated, but again for me it comes down to how the transwoman/tgirl/TS/T/shemale (pick your preference; it makes a lot of difference to some and very little to others) sees herself. If she sees herself as a woman, to me she's a woman. Her plumbing is irrelevant. But if she sees herself as a man in transition, that's fine too. I have no problem with the "at least a little homosexual" elements you mention: I enjoy sex with men, although I don't seek men out as sexual partners and certainly not in any romantic way (even if I wasn't married). Sheeba makes a good point, although other girls have made the "tclit" and "shecock" their own expression (consider Vicki Richter, who has stated that she prefers the term shemale and often speaks of her shecock). Some girls don't want their cocks touched and want you to pretend they don't even have them, while others really do enjoy topping (thank the gods). Venus joked with me at Allanah's party in September that she should've had to pay a small entry fee to the party because she's "just a little bit man." I had to laugh.

Idealistically, I don't see why one's sexual orientation or physiological makeup should make any difference, but of course I know that, realistically speaking, it does. If a transsexual wants me to acknowledge the homosexual element of sex with her, that's fine by me, as I have had many gay partners as well as female and ts partners in my life. But in my experience, these women want to be appreciated as women, so I don't emphasize that aspect.

[LBCDO]

See, your perspective has probally the reason you would be more successful than the average male. On the internet, many of us go deep deep into the issue, but where you actually interact with a real person, I have only been asked a handful of times what my orientation was. I guess its a mixture of social acceptance/homophobia/fear that makes people want to give some of the answers that I heard in this 8+ page thread. Nothing wrong with the answers, its just that I wish some were more honest with themselves. Thats why I understand Shades post. If it were so Straight, how come peoplke dont take their TS dates to the movies or christmas dinner, keep a copy of Transformation magazine on top of the toilet next to playboy, keep the Big Ass Shemale Adventure DVD in the player, and dont let people answer your late nigth phone calls? Thats why a TS will get that pissed about a guy who says they are straight and they like TSs, but act like a gay guy thats in the closet.

[Ecstatic]

Well, I don't know about more successful, but there are a couple of TS escorts who I have come to know well and as friends for a long time, who I interact with in many ways besides pay-for-play fun, and that may well be a large part of it. These are girls that I've gone out to dinner with, have discussed photography (not porno, but comparisons of different digital cameras) and web design and coding with, am quite happy to be seen with publicly, and more. Plus I like to think that I've managed to strike up at least some good online conversations with several T's, here and elsewhere, although I don't know these girls in the same way. Anyway, regardless of circumstance, I always try to relate with everyone I meet--in person or online--in as honest and open a way as possible.

I don't tend to tell people I know (family and friends) that I occasionally have sexual relations with TS escorts: there are simply far too many complications and nowhere near enough benefits to doing so. My wife, as I've said, is very comfortable with our situation, but she would be quite uncomfortable if suddenly she had to explain that complication of our lives to nosey friends or family. Why go there? It's nobody else's business, and I would never do anything that would hurt her (like putting her on the spot about how her husband is going to see TS escorts to get the sexual gratification missing in our marriage). However, if I weren't married and was seeing a TS as a companion and not as either a friend or an escort, then I wouldn't hesitate to be seen with her any place. And I freely tell people that I have transgendered friends; I just don't go into the sexual relations part of it (if they put 2 and 2 together, well, good for them).

But I think you're quite right, and from a slightly different perspective, I tried to make the same point earlier in this thread: there's a lot of dishonesty--to oneself as well as to others--for many guys who are into TS companionship, and I certainly don't blame any TS who gets pissed about a guy who pretends to be straight but acts like a gay guy stuck in the closet. But I think for a lot of guys into TS companions it's all and only about the sex, but for some of us there's a whole lot of other involvement in the community--in one form or another--that's equally important. Yes, I love sex with a hot TS, but I also welcome simple friendship, hanging together, that has nothing to do with sex.

[LG]

LBCDO wrote:

If it were so Straight, how come peoplke dont take their TS dates to the movies or christmas dinner, keep a copy of Transformation magazine on top of the toilet next to playboy, keep the Big Ass Shemale Adventure DVD in the player, and dont let people answer your late nigth phone calls?

It's really not that simple. Anyway, I don't keep my "straight" porn in open view- my Private and Color Climax magazines (hardocre European stuff- try it) are stashed away, as is one of my favourite ever DVDs (the best of Sylvia Saint), along with my small but precious collection of Big Ass Shemale videos.

What I do know is that I wouldn't (at that moment) "come out" with regards to my passion or openly date a transexual because of the taboos imposed by society and not because I either feel it's "wrong" or "gay" (I have nothing against gay people and have met one or two cool gay men, but although I'm all for gay rights, I don't consider myself one of them because of one simple fact- I don't like guys, never have.

True, I admit there's something not quite "normal" (whatever the hell normal might mean) to admiring she-cock. I also understand why many TSs are peeved with men who want to be exclusively passive in a sexual encounter or raltionship. TSs become TSs because they feel more like women than men, I assume, so they want men to make them feel like women. However, I also believe that many preops, and especially nonops have kept their pipework because they feel it can still give them some pleasure. And thus, as a truly versatile trannylover, I feel it is my honour and my duty to give them such pleasure.

Ecstatic wrote:

It is more complicated, but again for me it comes down to how the transwoman/tgirl/TS/T/shemale (pick your preference; it makes a lot of difference to some and very little to others) sees herself. If she sees herself as a woman, to me she's a woman.

I agree, in a sense. If a tgirl considers herself a woman rather than a man, then the sex can most accurately be described as heterosexual. That is why I cannot understant tgirls who claim that men who like them are gay. Please note my emphasis on "most accurately". Sexuality is not black and white. It is all about grey areas.

And for those trannylovers who claim they wouldn't suck shecock I say, what's the point? At least a major part of the whole attraction is what's hanging between her legs (or the knowledge of what it is and what it may be capaple of doing). In other words why go on about t-girls being "feminine" and "passable" and then not going anywhere near the one thing that requires you to use these very words. Just find a regular girl, man.

Of course I personally believe that t-girls are often sexier because they make so much of an effort, because they strive for perfection, they aim to please (and not only sexually, but to be pleasing to the eye and to be pleasant company and pleasant people- most people here seem to agree that Allanah, Vicky and Gia aren't just godesses, they are also really nice girls. But why spend your time on this forum if you aren't fascinated by the one thing that separates them from any other girl you see.

Just for the record, my favourite women at the moment (including t-girls and in no particular order), though my list changes daily, would include:
Alannah Starr, Vicky Richter, Kylie Minogue, Tera Patrick, Catherine Zeta Jones, Gia Darling, Meghan Chevalier, Vanity, Sylvia Saint and Charlize Theron. I would marry any of them, would be willing to go down on any of them and would love to be a love slave to anyone of them who would want me to for as long as she want (are you reading girls?).

As for being with guys, fuhgetaboutit.

[romeo]

Just to make it clear that it's not all about the dick
Look at the first picture
I am 0 % attracted by this girl and I don't see her as a woman at all.
Having a sexual contact with her I would feel to be gay (even though she has a pussy)
(PS I don't see every female bodybuilders in this way)

Second picture
I'm 100 % attracted by this girl (even though she has a dick I see her as a woman) and I don't feel to be gay (but I agree that it would be a homosexual contact).

[romeo]

There must be an error in the previous post I'm attracted by the girl of the first pictue

[Ecstatic]

Yes, Kailane is almost indescribably beautiful. Love this photo!

I think it's just a matter of the sequence with which you attached the photos; it's very clear which girl you meant by which comment.