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  1. #21
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by flabbybody View Post
    democratic? Americans don't vote directly on issues of national policy.
    Our founders (Washington, Jefferson,Hamilton, etc) created a representative government to avoid the whims of a fickle public
    That sounds like a dictatorship to me? How dare you call the general public fickle? Ever thought of going to North Korea?
    In the UK we elect our Politicians, the best ones claim to listen to the "fickle" public and act on their wishes!


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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    [QUOTE=Kim Jong-un;1821554]
    This post from Kim Jong-un first appeared in Rupert Murdoch's rag, The Sun on the 9th February-
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/553497...-after-brexit/

    Here are some rational objections to some on the list-

    In fact, the government could scrap the hideously complex VAT system — a job creation scheme for accountants that had to be brought in when the UK joined the EU — altogether, and go back to the simple purchase tax we had before.

    --The demand for money will be so intense as revenue falls when leaving the EU this is unlikely, thus-
    Although, theoretically it will be possible for the VAT system to be abolished in the UK post Brexit, I wouldn’t encourage anyone to get too excited about the prospect of that happening. In 2015/16, of the £535bn plus of tax revenue generated, VAT accounted for 22% of this, second only to Income Tax. It would appear inconceivable that this level of tax income could be generated from elsewhere. Add to this the fact that a VAT like system is operated in over 160 countries worldwide, it would appear to be a safe bet that VAT is here to stay, Brexit or no Brexit.
    http://www.armstrongwatson.co.uk/blo...ll-it-mean-vat

    In the 1990s, there were endless protests along the coast against exporting live lambs and calves for slaughter in Europe. The government wanted to ban the exports, but couldn’t because of EU rules. Animal welfare groups, take note.
    --And who is going to champion this, the 'free marketeer' Michael Gove?

    Environment Secretary Michael Gove is believed to be preparing to announce a ban on all live exports of animals for slaughter after the UK leaves the European Union, in a move that would hit Scottish hill farmers.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...orts-1-4682590

    In 2012, Nicola Sturgeon passed a law to impose minimum alcohol pricing in Scotland, but it has not come in because the ECJ complained. She could control Scottish fisheries to revitalise Scottish fishing ports.
    --But Scotland does have the right to impose a minimum alcohol pricing mechanism within the EU-

    The Scottish Parliament passed the minimum pricing legislation five years ago but it was tied up in a legal challenge by the Scotch Whisky Association (SWA) until last week, when the Supreme Court ruled that it did not breach EU law.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-42066394

    The last Labour government fought to have control of EU regional development funding to the UK; a money-go-round nonsense. Come Brexit, the government will be able to design funding to fit the country’s priorities. A Northern Powerhouse for instance.
    --And where is this money going to come from? The North-East is so dependent on the supply chain the auto industry it could face oblivion if there is a substantial contraction of business with the EU.

    The UK could also be brought closer together by introducing variable Air Passenger Duty — such as scrapping it on flights from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, or halving it from Scotland to England. Impossible in the EU, but possible outside.
    --So what? The cost of flights from the UK to the EU could rise substantially, and that is where most of the air traffic is oriented.

    There was a huge national moan when duty free for passengers travelling to Europe was abolished, because it conflicted with EU single market rules. Come Brexit, the government could bring back duty free for trips to France, Spain and Italy.
    -But duty free is a dodge to stop paying UK duties on alcohol, so I guess you are saying this is a win-win for the EU and a major loss of trade for UK traders -ie, the UK loses revenue yet again, unless you think the revenue from the ferries will compensate!

    I could go on but we would be back in the realm of the Brexit Wonderland as patented by Rupert Murdoch, the man who brought soft-porn to the daily newspapers, who employs journalists that break the law to invent stories when they can't find any to report, that prints hand-outs from the police and the government to cover up crimes rather than employ jouralists to investigate them, and who supports the campaigns of lies and racial abuse by the President of the USA in his campaign to 'drain the swamp' while apparently borrowing another $10 trillion because who cares about the debt anyway?


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  3. #23
    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    Well said Forrest Hump, I know the who three individuals are who've thumb downed your posting, it's just stupid and petty .
    Yeah, you'd be wrong about that, too!


    I hate being bipolar...It's fucking ace!

  4. #24
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by flabbybody View Post
    but let's face it, it appears the average Brit is having a tough time with an EU divorce.
    The day an "average Brit" appears on US television will be the day hell freezes over. Please please; do NOT assume the average Brit is anything like Tony Blair!


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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    That sounds like a dictatorship to me? How dare you call the general public fickle? Ever thought of going to North Korea?
    In the UK we elect our Politicians, the best ones claim to listen to the "fickle" public and act on their wishes!
    I personally wouldn't say the public is not trustworthy when it comes to knowing what it wants.

    But I would say that the average person only has time to know what objectives he wants and not every policy detail. The members of Parliament are responsible for taking into account what you want AND what's feasible and prudent. That may sound paternalistic, but it's not because you can't be trusted, it's because you do not have hours of your day to dedicate to policy detail.

    I struggle every day to keep up with what's going on. I still don't know most of the important things in the tax bill that passed in our country. But I know that I supported elected representatives who would have fought against tax cuts that don't have a stimulus effect and ended up being a huge boon to wealthy interests.

    I would argue a referendum is just not a good way to decide important and consequential policy issues. And as Stavros said, the results are advisory, and your Parliament ultimately makes the decision.


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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    And as Stavros said, the results are advisory, and your Parliament ultimately makes the decision.
    I know what advisory means generally but what should advisory mean in practice? Should your Parliament have felt duty bound to follow the results of the referendum no matter how difficult? Or could they have taken the approach that "this is what the public wants, we'll see if we can achieve it on rational terms, but if not we'll do what we deem best?" Had they taken this last approach would that have been seen as breaking faith with or double-crossing the public?



  7. #27
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    I know what advisory means generally but what should advisory mean in practice? Should your Parliament have felt duty bound to follow the results of the referendum no matter how difficult? Or could they have taken the approach that "this is what the public wants, we'll see if we can achieve it on rational terms, but if not we'll do what we deem best?" Had they taken this last approach would that have been seen as breaking faith with or double-crossing the public?
    When the European Union Referendum Act was passed by Parliament in 2015 giving the government the authority to hold the referendum in 2016, it was kept deliberately simple. The existing electorate would be asked one of two either/or questions. The proposals during the debate to extend the franchise to 16-17 year olds was rejected, as was the proposal that the result only be valid if the winning margin matched a pre-determined figure. These were seen as 'spoilers' designed to make it harder for Leave to win, yet in the end the fact that the winning margin was less than 5% and the regional disparity so large in the cases of Scotland and Northern Ireland, some still feel that, morally the result was not as conclusive as Leave should have liked.

    Nevertheless the government could have stated it noted the result but would not take it further, and legally, the Leave campaigns could have done nothing about that. On the other hand, what would have been the point of a referendum if there was no intention of implementing its result? In fact, this is one of the key reasons why in the UK governments most of the time avoid the use of referendums as a means of making policy. It is not just expensive, time consuming and potentially divisive, the govt that sets the question cannot guarantee that it will win. The concept of a referendum as being only 'advisory' is therefore a safety valve which in theory at least, allows a govt to note the result without acting on it, or acting on only a part of what the vote called for. It would in fact be better to scrap referendums altogether.



  8. #28
    Platinum Poster flabbybody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    That sounds like a dictatorship to me? How dare you call the general public fickle? Ever thought of going to North Korea?
    In the UK we elect our Politicians, the best ones claim to listen to the "fickle" public and act on their wishes!
    you're right. 'fickle' is not my right to use that word
    But it's because the general public in the two great democracies on our planet voted for BREXIT and Trump.
    Yea, I'm a little disappointed in the judgement of regular people



  9. #29
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by flabbybody View Post
    democratic? Americans don't vote directly on issues of national policy.
    Our founders (Washington, Jefferson,Hamilton, etc) created a representative government to avoid the whims of a fickle public
    No ...you're exactly right because a Government for, of, and by the People MUST juggle catastrophe at all times.
    I'm guessing Brexit boils down to Immigration, just like Trump. It took pissed off women 150 years to get the "right" to vote, but to this day the only thing a pissed off blackman gets is a trip to jail. The biggest flaw in a Democracy are it's people, same as any other form of government.


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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Do you want a 2nd BREXIT vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    How dare you call the general public fickle?
    Peejaye, did you not tell us in the other Brexit thread that you voted to Leave not because of the EU, but because you opposed David Cameron and his government's policies of economic austerity? You were not asked to vote on domestic economic policy but on the future of the country in a vote that you surely knew would change the UK for more than a generation -and yet you ignored this out of spite. What, then, is a fickle voter?



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