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  1. #21
    Senior Member Platinum Poster
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    A chorus of hypocrites. Here is John Bolton, proving that if his President can lay on the bullshit, he can match him:
    The Trump administration has warned Tehran that there would be “hell to pay” if it continued to “cross” the US and its allies.

    The threat was delivered by the national security adviser, John Bolton, a longtime Iran hawk who told an audience of anti-Tehran activists: “The murderous regime and its supporters will face significant consequences if they do not change their behaviour”.

    “Let my message today be clear: we are watching, and we will come after you,” Bolton said, according to early excerpts from his speech obtained by the Axios news website.

    He added: “If you cross us, our allies, or our partners; if you harm our citizens; if you continue to lie, cheat, and deceive, yes, there will indeed be hell to pay.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...united-nations

    As for dead Americans, active military support for Saddam Hussein, murderous campaigns against Iran inside Iran, look no further than John Bolton's best buddies. As documented here -

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...n-group-214526

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...t-organisation



  2. #22
    filghy2 Silver Poster
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    Why don't the Iranians realise that all they need to do is play their role in the Trump reality TV show, like his new friend Kim Jong Un? Just agree to a summit (I'm sure Trump's other bestie Vlad can arrange it), make a vague agreement that allows Trump to pose as a master negotiator and he'll be singing their praises in no time. I think that all Trump really cares about is receiving adulation, no matter how phoney it is.


    Last edited by filghy2; 09-27-2018 at 02:26 AM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    The differences are clear. North Korea has been an isolated country in search of friends, where Iran is far from being isolated and has in fact extended its influence across the Middle East since 1979. Though it can never be a dominant power in the region, Iran sees its operations as, in essence, a defence against hostile states, principally Saudi Arabia in the west, and Pakistan in the east, both of which contain Sunni extremists who consider Shi'a Muslims to be heretics.

    There is an awkward history too because Iran was not created by the British and the French as was the case with Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Palestine/Israel (which Israelis would probably dispute); nor was it controlled by British Imperial interests as was the case with the Emirates on the eastern coast of Arabia, or the recipient (literally) of bags of gold in exchage for loyalty as happened with Ibn Saud before he reneged on his agreements with the British in 1921. The short period of the Anglo-Russian Convention (1907-191 did give those two rival empires spheres of influence in Iran (basically, the north for the Russians, the oil-rich south for the British), but Iran has always been more independent than its Arab neighbours, and, of course was a firm allly of the US in the Cold War at a time when key Arab states such as Egypt, Syria and Iraq were pro-Soviet.

    The bad blood that exists between the US and Iran is thus different from that which might exist with North Korea because of the war and US casualties, and seems to be toxic in a way that North Korean relations are not.
    This may be due to the Islamic Revolution of 1979 undermining US influence in the Middle East, as it took place at a time when Iran and the Arabs had nationalised their oil industries and the US lost another regional ally in Ethiopia even if it gained (a increasingly feeble) one in Egypt. The siege at the US Embassy in Tehran was a biiter experience for the US, but if the US has failed to reform its relations with Iran, it may be due to at least two causes.

    The first is one of trust, which is weak between the two, but is also sustained by a lack of dialogue between the US and Iran who have shared strategic interests since 9/11. The reformist President Khatami made repeated attempts to open a positive dialogue with the US after 9/11 on the basis they shared a common enemy in al-Qaeda and the Taliban, but the Bush administration rejected the calls, the primary movers against at the time being Donald Rumsfeld and John Bolton, though there is evidence Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice were interested in opening channels of communication (see the IPS link below).

    The second is the infuence of both Israel and Saudi Arabia on US policy in the Middle East. I am not a supporter of the idea that American policy is made in Israel, even though Israeli intelligence has been held in high regard in Washington, at least since the Nixon era. You don't need Israel to tell the Americans where their best interests lie, which at various times meant supporting Saddam Hussein's murderous regime in Iraq, while the sale of AWACS to Saudi Arabia in the 1980s caused much concern in Israel.

    At the moment, both Israel and Saudi Arabia, who co-operated on the latter's behalf in the 1960s when the US shipped arms to Saudi Arabia through Israel to assist the Kingdon's futile war against Egypt in the Yemen, are encouraging the Americans to take a tough line with Iran purely for selfish reasons, with the current administration obsessed to trash everything Obama did and are thus willing to openly display their hypocrisy by denying a nuclear capability to Iran that says it is not building one anyway, with support for a nuclear capability that the Saudi Arabians say they need.

    As a Republican said recently, 'It will be as if the Obama Presidency never happened'.

    IPS article on US-Iran relations-
    http://www.ipsnews.net/2011/09/post-...wnward-spiral/

    Profile of John Bolton-
    https://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinker...lton-1.2193740



  4. #24
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    The alleged attack on two tankers in the Gulf of Oman has undoubtedly raised the temperature (and the oil price) today, 13th June- and on one level, it would appear to be odd were it to have been organized by the Iranians, as they would not invite an attack. On the other hand, they might calculate that a military attack is not part of the USA's plans (whatever Bolton says), and appear to be challenging the US President to talk, using his form of aggressive action to make it happen.

    Iran is undoubtedly suffering because of sanctions, and has said it will not allow the US to dictate the terms of trade it has with states that purchase Iranian oil and gas, and that if Iran's exports suffer, so will other exporting countries, so this would make an attack on tankers make sense as an Iranian tactic, also because the tankers were not destroyed, and Iran itself has rescued at least 40 seamen from one of them.

    With no evidence of who was responsible suggesting it was therefore a sophisticated operation, could Iran have farmed out the operation to the Russians? That would make the situation even more 'interestig' -but one hopes cool heads will prevail and that a back channel is opened so that for once, Americans and Iranians can talk to each other on equal terms.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...f-oman-us-navy



  5. #25
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    I thought Jared Kushner would have solved the Middle East Crisis by now, with Trump Bolton and Pompeo behind him, what could go wrong?
    Who's running the store? Kellyanne Conway??????
    They knew about Shanahan for months.
    Meanwhile disgraced pedophile Roy Moore says McConnell is warning his Republican colleagues to distance themselves from Donald Trump during the 2020 elections, (shhhhh, don't tell Donald..)
    Can this get any worse?
    YES
    How so?
    NO CLUE
    Isn't Hope Hicks lovely?
    HOT!!!



    World Class Asshole

  6. #26
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    I don't know what Hope Hicks has to do with it, even if she does have lovely hair.

    What we aso don't know is what is actually happening in the White House. Are we supposed to gasp at the generosity of the President in not attacking Iran -at the same time as it was in fact being attacked by 'cyberwarriors'? Are we supposed to assume the President is a peacenik surrounded by Boltons and Pompeos, one of the two paid by the MeQ to overthrow the Islamic government of Iran which he has publicly said he wants to do? And what are we to make of the pledge that Iran must not acquire Nuclear Weapons, when it has been made easier for them to do so, if that is what they want, by a President who by his actions and words has undermined the Iranians who supported the Nuclear Deal -'the worst deal in history'- while promoting the very regime hardliners who are opposed to internal reform and are, in effect, the President's best friends in Iran?

    And if Iran cannot have nuclear weapons, why has the President sold nuclear technlogy to Saudi Arabia, in violation of the law -the Atomic Energy Act- and without reference to Congress, a violation of the Constitution he swore an Oath to protect and to serve?

    Finally -what in the end does victory look like? An obliterated Iran, closer to the Stone Age than the Modern World? Or could it be a series of bi-lateral talks that produce an agreement that is in all but name, the same agreement which Obama's administration produced which the President said was 'the worst deal in history'?


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  7. #27
    Hung Angel Platinum Poster trish's Avatar
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    The president is a little child whose presidential powers manifest and amplify his uncontrollable tantrums. I imagine that after he worked himself into a emotional state (with the aid of Bolton and Pompeo) when he ordered airstrike on Iran that almost became manifest. Are we to believe his never inquired about the causalities of such an action until ten minutes before he called it off? Wasn’t informed when he gave the order? Or was it the case that in the heat of his tantrum he didn’t give a fuck? Are we to praise him now ‘cause he came to his senses in the nick of time, "That's a good thing you did there, Donny"?
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    "...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.

    "...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    Patrick Cockburn has written a fascinating article that makes telling points about US arms sales to Saudi Arabia- they are functionally useless. Whoever used drones to attack Saudi Arabia scored hits on the cheap which both Saudi Arabia and the US were powerless to prevent even with their million or billion dollar systems to do just that. Early warning? Missile defence? intelligence satellite intelligence human? Don't work. So now P45 sends in the troops- to do what? The man hasn't got a clue, his General Staff are punching their cards and maintaining at least, or expanding their budgets, approved by Congress that shunts the slices of the Defence pie to district and state.
    All that money, all that power- will they ever learn from their mistakes?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9113636.html



  9. #29
    Biatch Platinum Poster Nikka's Avatar
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    why the bitcoin is not up yet?



  10. #30
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    Default Re: The USA and Iran: cautious or reckless, war or peace?

    Tough Guy authorised the illegal assassination of Soleimani, no consultation with State, Defence, Intelligemce needed. We are told neither the US nor Iran wants a war, but Iran will get its revenge, and both Toigh Guy and Pompeo threaten 52 sites in Iran, presumably those provided by Israel. Iran can attack the US and its allie through soft means, such as the DoS attacks it made on Wall St in 2012, or disrupt shipping in the Gulf at great financial cost on the basis that the US doesn't care how much it costs to wage a futile war at any level.
    Does the US have a plan to replace the aggressive attempt to bring Iran to the negotiating table to produce a harsher version of the 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal? By his actions, Tough Guy has undermined reformists in Iran to support the very hardliners now determined to take the nuclear road, having all but denounced the 2016 deal.
    if Iraq is to be the playground will US forces Tough Guy wanted to withdraw now flood back in at the cost of another $2 trillion, and for what?

    You don't have to speculate on the real winner in all this. Tough Guy has delivered another massive, massive victory to Russia and lifelong Communist Vladimir Putin. Russia will guarantee the survival of Iran, and can step into the void left by the US in Iraq, China too may see an opportunity. Bush, Obama and Tough Guy failed to develop a pro-American constituency in Iraq, for them Tough Guy has flopped and is now a liability not an asset. Israel is more vulnerable because of Tough Guy, and who knows if Saudi Arabia, which was preparing a meeting this week with Iran will now withdraw, if Bin Salman has any coherent plan given that any attempt to talk to Iran will not please Tough Guy?

    Uncertain times, but with Tough Guy, all roads lead to Putin, and Putin is the man with a big smile on his face.


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