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The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
The death of Alexander Litvinenko from radioactive poisoning in London in 2006 is a curious affair. A public enquiry that has just ended has not really told us anything we did not know before, although evidence from MI6 was held in secret so we may never know just how involved Litvinenko was with British intelligence, or what he did or did not do for them. Unfortunately he made a lot of allegations about the FSB (formerly KGB) and Vladimir Putin (for example that he is a paedophile) which either have not been or cannot be verified, but it is beyond doubt that he was killed as a result of the Polonium 210 that was put in his tea by two former associates in the FSB, both of whom deny it. The important fact is that in Russia it is not possible to obtain Poloniium 210 at the level required to kill someone in a supermarket or a chemist shop, it had to have come from the military, and one also assumes that it is difficult -impossible?- to take radioactive materials through security in airports, not sure how that works.
But what this raises, if the Russian state sanctioned its use, is the theoretical possibility that the murder of Alexander Litvinenko was, in effect, a nuclear attack on the UK -not a state attacking a state, but a state attacking an individual. I don't know where that leaves deterrence as a doctrine, but a retaliation in kind by the UK does not seem either likely or desirable -but should the murder be classed as a 'nuclear attack' given that Polonium 210 is used to make nuclear weapons?
There is a wikipedia on Litvinenko here-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko
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Short answer, no it shouldn't be classed as a "nuclear attack" although the issue of how the Polonium was obtained/sanctioned is a worrying one.
As an aside, the point you make about taking radioactive materials through airport security is an interesting one. I've never given it any thought before, but Radium and Tritium (both used in illuminating watch dials) are radioactive, yet presumably millions of watches pass through security scans every day without triggering any alarms. Does make you wonder what the settings/sensitivity of the detectors are.
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Watch dials used to be painted with radium and given a final coat of white phosphorous. White phosphorous is not radioactive. However, when exposed to light it undergoes a number of chemical reactions with oxygen and hydrogen to cause it to glow for a short while. Exposing it to the continuous radiation (like that emitted by radium) would cause it to glow continuously. Watches dials no longer are painted with radium or other radioactive substances, which is why modern watches don’t glow all through the night.
Still, I’m not at all certain the TSA is set up to detect radioactivity. It X-rays your suitcases, it X-rays you and it runs you through a metal detector. That’s all I’m aware of.
I thought Litvinenko was stuck with polonium tipped dart shot from clever umbrella gun. I must be thinking of someone else. What’s curious is why would the Soviets use such a self-identifying poison.
I agree with Laphroaig, it’s not an example of a nuclear attack, though it has all the earmarks of a State attacking a individual legally within the borders of another nation.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
I think the umbrella dart was used to target someone with ricin. I can't recall who it was but it was a decade or so earlier if I'm right. I think the authorities believe Litvinenko ingested the Polonium.
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If the Russians really are crazy enough to plan and carry out an assassination with nuclear material and it was a centrally made decision, I agree retaliation is not a good idea. I'm not sure what is though.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
I thought Litvinenko was stuck with polonium tipped dart shot from clever umbrella gun. I must be thinking of someone else. What’s curious is why would the Soviets use such a self-identifying poison.
The Bulgarian dissident who worked for the BBC World Service, Georgi Markov was the man killed with a Ricin dart in 1978 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Love this thread , thanks all :cheers:
Geez , great mini tutorial on watch dials , thanks trish. You pressed all my science trivia buttons:party:
Stavros may remember that I posted some information on the Litvinenko murder on an earlier discussion about Putin and the murders of at least 6 other dissidents including journalist Anna Politkovskaya .
Polonium 210 has a short half-life of only 138 days , and although highly radioactive , not very practical for power generation ,such as aboard spacecraft . Short half life radioisotopes are widely used in medicine and are routinely shipped and handled in lead-aluminum containers. So it doesn't necessarily need to be carried by an airline passenger. Polonium 210 is used in the paper industry ,not medicine ,but very rare and ,the key point of the inquiry,almost certainly from a nuclear facility.
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Is...olonium210.asp
http://www.businessinsider.com/here-...t-years-2015-2
http://www.chemicool.com/elements/polonium.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
sukumvit boy
Love this thread , thanks all :cheers:
Geez , great mini tutorial on watch dials , thanks trish. You pressed all my science trivia buttons:party:
Stavros may remember that I posted some information on the Litvinenko murder on an earlier discussion about Putin and the murders of at least 6 other dissidents including journalist Anna Politkovskaya .
Polonium 210 has a short half-life of only 138 days , and although highly radioactive , not very practical for power generation ,such as aboard spacecraft . Short half life radioisotopes are widely used in medicine and are routinely shipped and handled in lead-aluminum containers. So it doesn't necessarily need to be carried by an airline passenger. Polonium 210 is used in the paper industry ,not medicine ,but very rare and ,the key point of the inquiry,almost certainly from a nuclear facility.
Thanks for the interesting post, and apologies that I do not recall the posts you made on the murders of Putin's opponents. What that raises is the most curious issue, why, since most of Putin's enemies/critics in the link you offered, were shot dead, was Polonium 210 used as a murder weapon? I have an interesting book on the case written by the New York Times journalist Alan S. Cowell -The Terminal Spy (200-eight) where he quotes a Russian 'Kremlinologist', Stanislas Belkovsky
' "Polonium is just a demonstration. It's like a visiting card left at the scene of the crime...Polonium was used to show it was the secret services...If the FSB were really involved, they would have used another tool" '; and he then cites a 'former British intelligence official' who told him ' "if he had been murdered professionally by the FSB, I don't think we would know he had been murdered"' (all from Chapter 14, page 406)
-But although the medical teams treating Litvinenko deduced that he was being killed from the inside by radiation poisoning it seems clear that the people who murdered him did not believe the cause of death would be made at all, and that Litvinenko's strange death would not have been exposed as murder but possibly explained as an auto-immune collapse similar to but not derived from AIDS.
The first diagnosis of radiation poisoning as the cause of Litvinenko's illness was made on the 16th of November when it was believed he had been poisoned by Thallium, and this also initiated the criminal investigation into his death which took place on the 23rd (see Cowell on this in Chapter 11 from page 265 onwards). As a result of what Litvinenko managed to tell the police before he died, their follow up inspections of the places where Litvinenko said he met Lugovoi and Kovtun were revealed to have traces of radiation, but Polonium 210 was only identified by atomic scientists at the Aldermaston research centre on the day Litvinenko died in the final batch of urine samples from him that they had to work with and which they treated with exceptional care -otherwise the cause of death might never have been known. This was not revealed publicly until after Litvinenko's death because of the political implications, which Cowell describes as 'the ultimate threat, the nightmare that had stalked the Cold War and its buildup of nuclear arsenals'. Added to which came the question -where did the Polonium come from?
According to Cowell, the old Soviet nuclear facility at Sarov was the place where the Polonium was manufactured, and it is estimated that the amount of Polonium used to kill Litvinenko would have cost 'a few thousand dollars', as the material can be produced in bulk and it is not incredibly expensive to do so, although when you set the cost of Polonium against the cost of buying a gun, even on the black market in London it seems an unusually expensive and elaborate a way to kill someone, after all, both Lugovoi and Kovtun knew Litvinenko; they could have arranged a meeting somewhere, and sat in the lobby of their hotel while a third or fourth person abducted him, bumped him off and buried him in a field far away, never to be seen or heard of again. And so on. It is possible that the Polonium was placed into a small vial which would not have been detected in security at airports, although Cowell says that Russia it is transported in lead containers so I am still not sure how it was transported.
The most puzzling thing is why such a high risk form of radiation poisoning was used at all, even if the aim was to kill someone without the cause being discovered, which suggests a cock-up, rather in the way that the bomb on Pan-Am 103 was supposed to explode when the aeroplane was flying over the Atlantic, not Lockerbie in Scotland.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Two prior attempts to kill him failed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30994242
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sukumvit boy
Yes -but why Polonium 210?
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As you pointed out they almost got away with it.
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Because P-210 is an alpha emmiter and not likely to be detected by the usual tools such as a Geiger counter.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...whodunnit.html
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It just seems to me to be such a risky way to killing someone, when there are other methods. If you follow these things it is now being suggested that a Russian 'supergrass' Alexander Perepilichnyy could have been murdered in the UK because he had "explosive" information in an investigation into a Russian money laundering scheme. Moreover, and this is the key point:
Traces of the highly toxic Gelsemium plant, which is found only in remote regions of China., were found in Mr Perepilichnyy’s stomach but the inquest is waiting for more detailed tests..
Again, if they want him dead, why not just shoot him? It all seems so needlessly elaborate, unless there is some sort of message in the use of deadly poisons...
article is here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...itvinenko.html
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The signs are there but no proof as yet...a case of 'watch this space'...
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Below is a link to an assessment by the Telegraph which uses sources such as Anthony Glees and Nigel West, two seasoned writers on spying for many years whose work should not always be taken seriously. For example, Glees claims
“it is clear that either directly or indirectly Sergei Skripal would have been known to Christopher Steele” and added that “anybody who feels that Trump was humiliated and dissed by an MI6 officer may feel that getting at one of his agents is justified. That could be the Russian security services.”
But it is not clear at all, as Glees has not provided any such evidence. Skripal has given lectures to various military colleges as a former officer in Russian Military Intelligence (ie not the FSB) but unless Glees knows something we don't how can it be proven, as is also the case with the Buzzfeed linked which claims Russia has bumped off 14 people in the UK it didn't like?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...uncomfortable/
Richard Norton-Taylor also with years of reporting on intelligence matters for the Guardian raises the question of what the UK's response to Russia should be if it were found to be the cause. It ranges from the maximum breaking diplomatic relations to selective sanctions, with Norton-Taylor arguing that it is when countries like the UK and Russia stop engaging on a regular basis that actions like this take place, and thus argues for more dialogue at the intelligence level, not less.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sergei-skripal
In fact the UK has severed diplomatic relations before. In 1980 the UK severed all but nominal relations with Iran following the siege of the Iranian Embassy in London, so it wasn't a full break; Iran severed diplomatic relations with the UK when it refused to take action over Salman Rushie and his novel The Satanic Verses in 1989 at a time when the British staff in the Tehran embassy had been evacuated. Relations were restored in 1999 but when the British Embassy was stormed in 2011 relations were again put into deep freeze but diplomatic relations not entirely severed. On that occasion sanctions included a ban on banking relations between the UK and Iran. But as an Iranian academic argued, while various actions against Iran hurt its economy and isolated it from states that had the power to attack it, the moves also isolated the UK because the EU did not respond in concert, thus giving more influence in Iran to France and Germany both of whom were seen to be less in tune with the USA as the UK.
http://www.e-ir.info/2012/01/23/down...my-of-a-folly/
On the other hand, in the case of Litvinenko we are dealing with murder using nuclear weapons material, and possibly attempted murder and there is a case of the UK severing diplomatic relations over attempted murder. It happened in 1986 when Nezar Hindawi was found guilty of planting a bomb in an El AL airline in London (it did not go off) in 1985. With evidence that Hindawi was working for the Syrian Government the UK severed relations with Syria that were not restored until 2006.
It is an interesting but difficult choice, and what evidence there is suggests that any actions the UK takes would be limited and that the most effective actions would be collective, for example involving the EU, the USA, UK allies in the Commonwealth, and it seems unlikely at this time that powerful players like the US and China would join, leaving the UK in the increasingly weak position it finds itself in due to Brexit.
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The UK govt has established that Skripal, his daughter and others have been poisoned by a nerve agent that is part of the Novichuk, military-grade nerve agents first developed in the USSR in the 1970s. It has been argued that whoever carried out the attack may have brought different precursors into the UK and that it is not until these are joined together that they become lethal. Moreover, because the impact of the agent can take up to 18 hours to take effect it is not known precisely where or when it was administered, one theory being that if in powder form it may have been infiltrated into the Skripal family car and triggered by the ignition of the engine when starting up.
The likelihood that agents of the Russian government or FSB were involved has risen owing to the source of the nerve agents, and the identification of Skripal as the victim, and is thus similar to the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in the relative incompetence with which the murder weapon was used, but also its rare source making it inevitable that when identified it would narrow down the murderers to just one country.
As to the response, it is widely believed this will take the form of diplomatic expulsions and sanctions on individual Russians as well as some financial limitations and possibly the removal of RT's license to broadcast in the UK. That the UK needs a co-ordinated response from the EU exposes how weak it is after Brexit -sympathetic noises from France, but muted from Germany- as well as NATO, Tillerson claiming Russia is involved, his boss not even bothering to tweet.
But if the UK wanted a dramatic response that would jolt the Russians -who will retaliate in some form- breaking diplomatic relations would be an option, much as it did to Syria over the attempt to blow up an El Al aeroplane in London in 1986, but this has apparently been ruled out already. The other jolt would be for the UK to withdraw the England football team from this summer's FIFA World Cup competition, where we already know Russian hooligans have declared unofficial war on England supporters though it is hard to believe the Russian state would allow street fights of the kind that took place during the Euros. But apparently that is also not on the table though officials of the England team will not go to Russia. In fact, the UK should persuade FIFA to remove the World Cup from Russia and ask the EU to host it instead. Even at this late stage, it would not be hard to organize it across the EU for the first time, and the final could be played at Wembley Stadium in London, the Russia team having been suspended. This would deeply hurt the Russians from the State down to the citizens looking to benefit from the competition, but the sums of money involved are so great the people who stand to benefit most will give Putin a free pass on the Salisbury attack (which so far has not led to a death) just as the other crimes Putin has committed from the Crimea and the Ukraine to Syria go unpunished.
In the end this is all about money, the investments made in Russia by certain powers; the investment made by Russia in certain countries, and individuals. The little guys, that is, you and me, are of no importance, be we living or dead.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43377698
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Jack shit will happen. No proof of Russia being involved, just "Establishment spin" & speculation from a frail weak old woman, you call our Leader, trying to get a grip & sound tough when she is almost broken & soon to be replaced! All Tory spin to dominate the news instead of informing us what dirty tricks they are up to next!
& to quote the fucking BBC, don't you ever give up? Bigger fucking liars than the Tories themselves.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
Jack shit will happen. No proof of Russia being involved, just "Establishment spin" .
There's evidence not absolute proof, but common sense also says it was Russia. There is precedent for Russia using exotic methods of killing people on British soil. There is the fact that it was a Russian spy who was poisoned. There's the fact that the poison is exotic enough that there are a limited number of sources for it. Surely the people didn't poison themselves?
Who do you think poisoned Sergei Skripal and why?
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I agree with everything you say but as you say; there is no proof, just strong speculation. Without proof what can be done? Would you send a man to prison without proof? The media are so corrupt in this country more and more people are starting to disbelieve them as each day passes by! Especially Sky & the BBC.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
I agree with everything you say but as you say; there is no proof, just strong speculation. Without proof what can be done? Would you send a man to prison without proof? The media are so corrupt in this country more and more people are starting to disbelieve them as each day passes by! Especially Sky & the BBC.
There's the proof you require to condemn someone and then the proof that's required to investigate and take a good close look at one party, which has surely been met. We know someone did it. Russia is more likely to have than any other individual party by far. It cannot hurt to say out loud what everyone is thinking. I imagine if there are to be sanctions or some other punitive action taken against Russia, there would be a searching process to hear all the facts and be convinced to some reasonable degree it was Russia.
At this point, if your government asks serious questions of the Russians and there's evasiveness and other bullshit, that should be enough. Just my take.
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This country is nothing to Russia. They must laugh their cocks off at the obsession we have with their country & this little "tin-pot" place certainly cannot harm them. There are plenty of Russian billionaires living in Mayfair & Belgravia in London & what our "Correspondent of the Establishment" forgot to mention is; The Tories have received £820,000 in donations from Russia this year alone, of course, the Tories are insisting it's not from the Kremlin so that's ok. Embarrasses me to be British with this lot.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
This country is nothing to Russia. They must laugh their cocks off at the obsession we have with their country & this little "tin-pot" place certainly cannot harm them.
You guys are obsessed with Russia? They murdered a subversive with nuclear material on your streets and now another one of their spies ends up dead from a poison that a limited number of places produce, one being Russia. What would qualify as a healthy suspicion? I don't imagine the Russians see your country as a tin-pot place or anything of the sort and the Russians have wrought absolute havoc on Europe and the U.S. by interfering with elections, and murdering journalists, politicians and former spies.
Do you think the Russians have interfered with free elections because they don't think it will work or that they don't have interests to further that warrant the risk of alienation? Do you think all these Russians hostile to their regime end up dead by accident? You may have your differences with the Tories, but I would hope you all see foreign enemies taking hostile actions on your soil as a bigger problem than partisan politics.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...P=share_btn_tw
I'm definitely not rushing to judgment on this one, just posting it as something of interest right now.
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I would just point out that I was with a Russian girl for 7 years visiting regularly between 2000-2007 so I have experiences over there. That's why I laugh so much at most of the propaganda from the far right. :)
You give them lots of credit for interfering with all these elections? I wish I were half as clever as them!
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
Jack shit will happen. No proof of Russia being involved, just "Establishment spin" & speculation from a frail weak old woman, you call our Leader, trying to get a grip & sound tough when she is almost broken & soon to be replaced! All Tory spin to dominate the news instead of informing us what dirty tricks they are up to next!
& to quote the fucking BBC, don't you ever give up? Bigger fucking liars than the Tories themselves.
Blimey mate, Theresa May is 61 and you call her an 'old woman'? Maybe wait until she is 80?
In 2009 a government security document leaked to the Telegraph revealed that HMG has identified spies operating in the UK from Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea, France and Germany and 13 other countries. Most are focused on commercial espionage-
In today's high-tech world, the intelligence requirements of a number of countries now include new communications technologies, IT, genetics, aviation, lasers, optics, electronics and many other fields. Intelligence services, therefore, are targeting commercial enterprises far more than in the past.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-Germany.html
Who else could have made the nerve agent responsible for the attack in Salisbury? The answer could be any advanced industrial power, except that the production of chemical weapons is illegal in international law, while precursors may be made for non-military use and then assembled for such uses -but that leaves the question, why? On this basis one could surmise the US, Japan, North Korea, China and the Ukraine have the expertise. A lot will depend on the precise identity of the agent if it can be done but that raises the question: why this man living in the UK and why this mode of attack?
What reason would the US, North Korea or say, Syria have for murdering an ex-military Russian intelligence officer and his daughter? We know that in theory Syria agreed to dismantle and destroy its chemical weapons facilities and stockpiles under the agreement between the USA and Russia in 2013 but that there have been claims the Syrians did not comply; or, even if they did, they still have access to chemical weapons purchased from North Korea, and that these are being used to attack Ghouta east of Damascus which was also the place attacked in 2013 that led to the aforementioned agreement. What would stop Russia purchasing its own stocks from North Korea and more to the point, why is Russia violating the 2013 agreement by not taking action against its Syria ally when it uses chemicals weapons on Ghouta?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23876085
Plenty of retired spies and ex-government officials live in the UK, from North Korea to Nigeria, yet the list of murders is Russian, with yet another Russian -Nikolai Gluushkov, ex-friend of the late Boris Berezovsky- found dead in his London home yesterday, cause of death so far unknown.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...is-london-home
Think about it: Russians, chemical agents, revenge = Source + agency + motive. That the attacks have been incompetent may suggest to some that these are amateurs, except that chemical weapons are notorious for being volatile and unreliable which is why they have not been standard weapons of war since they were first made illegal in the 1920s. Thus, if it was not the Russians attempting to murder their own, who was it?
On a wider level, it marks the continuation of the breakdown of international rules-based order in which agreements are cast aside for an 'anything goes' attitude. We know that Putin feels betrayed by the West for the manner in which it was -in his view- deceived into supporting regime change in Libya as it became; yet even before this when she became Secretary of State in 2009 Hillary Clinton stated explicitly that she wanted the US to hit the 'reset' button with Russia, just as David Cameron tried, and both of them failed to convince Putin to maintain Russia's open economy and form closer relations with the 'west'. That the west still claims to need Russia's help in the 'fight against terrorism' makes one wonder when we will accept that this relationship is not working.
But how to respond effectively remains a key question to which I have no long-term answer.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
This country is nothing to Russia.
Come on Peejaye, the UK is a major part of the NATO alliance the Russians would love to see dissolved along with the EU; the UK is a source of money laundering for Russian millionaires and billionaires as well as being one of their favourite places to live; the Anglo-Dutch oil company Shell, and the Anglo-American BP have both been major investors in Russia and have retail outlets in the densely populated areas of Western Russia; the UK remains a founder member of the UN and a permanent member of the Security Council.
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So this "demented old biddy" is now thinking of boycotting the World Cup? What the fuck as that got to do with Politics?? Just how much harm will that do to the Soviet Union? Laughable! They will get support from no other country competing. Biggest losers there will be England fans and the team! Typical Tory shite!
Sport is sport & Politics is Politics, some people take it too seriously, mentioning no names.
All FIFA will do if England pull out is replace them with the team from the group who lost out.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
So this "demented old biddy" is now thinking of boycotting the World Cup? What the fuck as that got to do with Politics?? Just how much harm will that do to the Soviet Union? Laughable! They will get support from no other country competing. Biggest losers there will be England fans and the team! Typical Tory shite!
Sport is sport & Politics is Politics, some people take it too seriously, mentioning no names.
All FIFA will do if England pull out is replace them with the team from the group who lost out.
"demented old biddy"-?? I think you can do better than that, and anyway no, that was my idea, as the UK government does not have the power, as far as I know, to prevent the England team or any sporting body to take part in international events. FIFA in any case is a corrupt organization whose primary aim is to make money from football. Nevertheless, the FIFA World Cup is one of the biggest sporting events in the world and for Russia a hugely prestigious event too, but I doubt that either FIFA or individual countries will not take part. It would also be a blow to those small businesses that stand to make money from the event, not just those determined to rip off supporters travelling to Russia.
As for sport being sport, it is embedded in politics, in Russia perhaps more than many other states and I see the World Cup as another means whereby Putin will present himself as a successful politician immune from the punishment he deserves for the crimes his country has committed. Since we cannot prevent the England team from going -Mrs May has said in the House today that no officials or Royal Family will represent the country in Russia- but I would suggest supporters stay home and save their money.
But how do you see this, Peejaye? Is it an act of terrorism? An act of war? An accident?
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I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element, but this is always the speculation when someone turns up dead and it's convenient to the regime. Putin's recent response to the Russian hacking claims was that maybe someone patriotic did it. Even if there are "patriots" carrying out his will, this supposed alibi only makes Russia look like a vast, out of control criminal enterprise. The mafia don does not have to order the hit if the lower rungs know what he wants and what is acceptable to procure it.
The only alternative to these two possibilities given the targets seems to be a false flag. And then there's the question of whether there have been multiple false flags over years and years or only this one. And how does a framed party act? Do they acknowledge the incriminating appearance but protest their innocence or do they immediately make threats and accuse the victimized country of propagating a fake news campaign against it?
This is just the latest in a series of cases in which it looks like Russia, knowing that the world is afraid of unstable nuclear powers, doesn't know exactly how to respond when he acts without any fear of consequences.
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I see it as attempted murder & had we a sufficient Police & Intelligence service they could try & find the perpetrator and lock him up.
I'm convinced Vladimir Putin wasn't in Salisbury & never has been!
If you're British, don't throw stones in glass houses, this countries past is shocking, rumours of deformed babies born into Royalty given away for adoption or even murdered?
You, like the Government are a bunch of fucking hypocrites!
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element
A good posting but are you calling it an act of terrorism because the accused are Russian? What if it were your country? I won't lecture you about some of the USA's past!
In all honesty; Do ANY of us know what's going on in Russia? The BBC have been proved of fake news, SKY is owned by Murdoch, I don't know how trustworthy CNN are?
I've always gone through life thinking people believe what they want to believe, that's why travel is the biggest education in life. My advice to anyone young or old is; Try it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
I've always gone through life thinking people believe what they want to believe, that's why travel is the biggest education in life. My advice to anyone young or old is; Try it.
I haven't been to Russia, but what I think of Putin certainly doesn't reflect what I think of Russians, particularly given the way he's manipulated the power structures in Russia to benefit himself and does not serve at the will of the people. I acknowledge that the U.S. has committed many human rights violations, and while I can point out differences in them, it might sound like hair-splitting. Let me just say that if journalists and Democratic politicians were turning up dead here, it would be shocking and worrisome.
I just think your country has to consider the violation of its sovereignty more than the overall human rights record of other countries around the world. Is Putin allowed to order a hit on a target in Britain and carry it out in a way that threatens a lot of your citizens and not face any consequences?
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element, but this is always the speculation when someone turns up dead and it's convenient to the regime.
I find this problematic, because I am not sure that 'terrorism' is a crime in international law, but the description of an event that in reality is an act of war. If you consider the 9/11 attacks, although they were not carried out by a state, but a non-state actor called al-Qaeda, that organization declared war on the USA in 1998 and subsequently attacked US targets in East Africa and the Yemen, and for that reason the US defined al-Qaeda 'operatives' as enemy combatants and thus subject to the laws of war and thus, at Guantanamo Bay a military tribunal rather than a court of law, though even this is contested by some jurists and politicians.
Critical to this situation is that the weapon used in the attack is a nerve agent of which the production as well as the dispensation is illegal under international law, and it is not clear if a cell of terrorists could manufacture such an agent, whereas it is believed the Russians do indeed produce nerve agents which is why there has been a call for the UN agency to seek access to Russia to investigate their facilities. Even if it is proven that the Russians do not produce these agents, there is evidence that North Korea does and there is no reason to suppose they would not sell such agents to the Russians.
That the evidence points to Russia as a state is what raises the level here, and thus it must be considered an act of war, even if war itself is not formally declared, particularly as this is not the first time that it has happened. It is to my mind naive to suppose anyone not part of the Russian state machine could do this, while Putin's Russia may not be the USSR, he has done what he can to replicate much of its internal intelligence and security apparatus, with the ultimate point being who else wanted to eliminate Skripal?
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peejaye
I see it as attempted murder & had we a sufficient Police & Intelligence service they could try & find the perpetrator and lock him up.
I'm convinced Vladimir Putin wasn't in Salisbury & never has been!
If you're British, don't throw stones in glass houses, this countries past is shocking, rumours of deformed babies born into Royalty given away for adoption or even murdered?
You, like the Government are a bunch of fucking hypocrites!
It is not about hypocrisy but the danger of the relative crimes you imply defeating any moral argument for a response. It is true that the UK has engaged in 'extra-judicial' killings abroad, most recently British citizens murdered in drone strikes in Syria, and non-British citizens in Afghanistan, but the UK government would defend these actions as 'self-defence' under the Charter of the UN. There was also the claim that the British Army had a 'shoot to kill' policy in Northern Ireland during the troubles, a claim that was always denied, but it could be argued the Provisional IRA and other paramilitary groups also had their own 'shoot to kill' policy suggesting that none of the people mentioned were on the right side of the law. And it was a civil war, and the participants were not afraid to say so.
You seem to me to be ignoring the flags that are waving in the wind -the identity of the victims who were clearly targeted; that the Russians have done this before; that they have used chemical and nerve agents as weapons even though -or because- they are volatile and unpredictable. It is not about a comparison of British and Russian methods of killing, but the precise nature of this case. I find it astonishing that you cannot seem to grasp how important the use of a nerve agent is, it takes warfare back 100 years to the Somme and Verdun, and forward to a future that we were supposed to make impossible, and bear in mind that using nerve agents or Polonium is what, one, two, three steps away from using Nuclear Weapons in a designated 'battlefield'?
You could argue that these are symbolic acts- as Russia resents the criticism of its support for the Asad regime and its use of chemical weapons in Syria, so it uses a chemical agent in the UK as a slap in the face; as they are aware that the US President when a candidate pondered using Nuclear Weapons and has threatened to destroy North Korea - so here is the proof that Russia too can be destructive if it wants to be. Behind all of this day-to-day provocation by Russia is the deeper problem that Putin wants Russia to be a great world power, to at least restore the glory days of the bi-polar world he grew up in when he joined the Communist Party and the KGB. In other words, when the US and the USSR 'ruled the world'. But he wants the world to take him seriously by using threats and violence, by taking revenge on the democracies he believes deceived him and Russia over Iraq and Libya and that fomented the unrest in the Ukraine which led to the Maidan Revolution and the prospect of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.
I have been to Russia, it is fascinating country with a wealth of cultural history and experience, the food is good, the people reasonably friendly -and all of the ones I spoke to loathed Putin and wanted to see him gone. And he will be gone one day, though nobody knows when or who will replace him. Between now and then the opportunity for destructive acts seems limitless, but there must be a way to restrain Russia, for where will all this violence lead us?
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
Is Putin allowed to order a hit on a target in Britain and carry it out in a way that threatens a lot of your citizens and not face any consequences?
No he isn't & there's no proof that he has. I'm not going to keep banging my head against a wall so I won't.
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Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko
I guess Theresa May and Parliament found the evidence against a Russian state sponsored hit convincing enough to expel 23 Russian diplomats.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...=.b7d2c2d095ce
Let us not forget that they tried to kill his daughter too !