Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
I also love how DaveinBoston tries to create the impression of impartiality by creating false equivalences. For instance, those who have tried to portray Trayvon Martin as a "thug" and a criminal who deserved to be "put down" are equivalent to those who think Zimmerman might have acted based on racial animus. It's the racist majority vs. the racist minorities. One would almost be tempted to forget the entire history of police abuse of African-Americans in this country, or the history of aggressive police tactics being used to harass African-Americans.
There's also the claim that I frequently hear from those who think a criminal case isn't worthy of much scrutiny such as "only two people know what happened and one of them is dead". Perhaps we shouldn't even have a trial because dead men can't speak? This is one of the reasons the facts are stated in terms of contingencies.
What I love most is the admonition to the angry public who wants to see a fair trial that the verdict needs to be accepted regardless of what it is. You are right that you will never have a verdict that pleases both sides as in most cases the defense wants "not guilty" and the prosecution "guilty". But I for one don't think that people should get shot and killed unless a valid self-defense argument can be made. I don't think it's sufficient for someone standing over the dead body of a teenager to say, "now prove your case without any witnesses." The jury is allowed to make inferences from the circumstances and the physical evidence even if George Zimmerman can fall back on a lack of eyewitness testimony to create doubt.
I also don't think that people should be subject to surveillance by armed, potentially unstable people when they are walking the streets. You say well it's not illegal. Well, it probably depends on the state and it is something the legislature should consider if one group of people is going to be subject to harassment by armed men.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Imagine Trayvon as a white kid. Everyone on this board knows the police would have behaved differently, regardless of where in this Country the confrontation occurred. "An hispanic guy, killing an unharmed white juvenille....outrageous, throw the book at that dirtbag!"
I am guilty of the same kind of instinctual profiling, it is in my DNA. It is our inborn survival mechanism, to be wary of those who look and act different from us. The shame is, that no amount of diversity training, can overcome what is deeply inbedded in our brainstem. It is a crying shame, but it cannot be changed.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
fastingforlife
Imagine Trayvon as a white kid. Everyone on this board knows the police would have behaved differently, regardless of where in this Country the confrontation occurred. "An hispanic guy, killing an unharmed white juvenille....outrageous, throw the book at that dirtbag!"
I am guilty of the same kind of instinctual profiling, it is in my DNA. It is our inborn survival mechanism, to be wary of those who look and act different from us. The shame is, that no amount of diversity training, can overcome what is deeply inbedded in our brainstem. It is a crying shame, but it cannot be changed.
I completely agree with you. I think the instinctual mechanism you speak of also involves guilt as well. People don't want to hear charges of racism made no matter how supported they are by the facts because they feel unable to distance themselves from those being accused. For instance, if George Zimmerman is guilty of murder and the justice system was not appropriately used, then they feel they are somehow complicit. So they do the only thing that actually involves a moral transgression in a situation they weren't personally involved in. They obscure the illegal acts and attempt to make the picture murkier by claiming everyone is wrong so therefore nobody is wrong.
But what you suggest is actually a fairly good technique. Imagine Trayvon Martin as a family member. Maybe he was hot-headed, maybe he was a wild kid, but essentially he was minding his own business. Now he's dead.
Also, imagine yourself spending your day in civilian clothing with a gun in your waistband following around teenage kids. Follow them at close range in a car; make yourself conspicuous. How often might you find yourself needing to use a gun? How often would you ordinarily need to pull a gun? As they say, "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Edit: also the reason the paparazzi gets additional room to engage in surveillance is because of their first amendment protection. In most invasion of privacy tort cases, the reason the law can't go further than it does is because there is a risk of jeopardizing a free press. This is one of the reasons in other countries without the equivalent of our first amendment, invasion of privacy can actually exist in public ironically.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
I see we're now speaking hypothetically. So if the hypothetical Martin said, "I've got a gun!" and the hypothetical Zimmerman shot him dead on the spot, it would obviously not be justifiable homicide. If you can't figure that out for yourself, you shouldn't be allowed to carry a pez dispenser, let alone a gun.
<removed due to nonsensicalness and length>
At last, I've got you thinking... rather than ranting emotionally (though I understand why)... though you did resort to emotional ranting later... shame I was slow in being able to reply.
I did not pick my examples aimlessly, each involves an increasing about of perceived threat to one party... however in each case the degree of the actual threat is unknown. Don't forget that the actual threat is not something you can fully know until after the fact (either the threat was made good on, removed, or false).
There is a reason why the law treats a person wielding a fake gun much the same way as a real one, while the actual threat is different from either item, the perceived threat is the same. Doing so may allow you to rob a liquor store successfully... but it also may get you shot by the police.
It all goes back to Q of how reasonable the fear of the perceived threat is.
You seem to think that claiming "I was afraid for my life" is a get out of jail free card. If it was, I would expect more bank robberies where the robber yells "I am afraid for my life" just before shooting a teller... thankfully, it's not. Instead it simply opens the door to if it was a legitimate fear or not, something that may have been acted upon during the incident, but that the police, prosecutor, and even a judge and jury may get to give an opinion on... which is exactly what is happening now (i.e. the system is working!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
If he shot to kill, then he had intent to kill. Doesn't sound like a good defense.
Wait, so Zimmerman's intent when shooting was to kill? I'd not heard this! Do please share your sources.
As an experienced hunter I know that a person or animal can be shot many places in the chest/upper body and live quite some time (without treatment)... hell my first deer lived more than 12 hours before succumbing because of a bad shot on my part (from the side and more or less between its lungs and intestines)... a mistake I will never repeat (if I can't make a clean kill on my game, I will hold my shot).
Q: How often does anyone... civilian, police, or military shoot to wound (instead of kill)? Why don't we just require it of all shooters?
A: I'll tell you a secret... it's very rare. Sure... they could aim for a knee or an arm... but those are rather small targets, missing is easy and an unchecked bullet can wound or kill someone completely unrelated to the situation.
Trained and/or competent shooters, be they civilian, police or military know to shoot for center of mass... not because that's where all the vital organs are, but because it is an easier shot! ...and unless you are a trained/skilled shooter (which I'm guessing you are not), it's improper for you to talk about where one should/shouldn't shoot.
To re-iterate, the intent isn't necessarily to kill... but to remove the threat, which may (unfortunately) result in death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
You're assuming there was only one person in the wrong and there was only one offense to be wrong about. If you shoot and and kill an unarmed person when your life is not in danger, then you may be found guilty of murder regardless of who laid a hand on who first.
Bingo! To which I again remind you... the system is working! ... so wait... you don't like the system that we are now seeing?
Of course... as new evidence comes to light... it's becoming increasingly clear that Martin may have increasingly been in the wrong. Did that mean he deserved to die? Absolutly not, but it does paint an ever clear picture as to which side had more power to prevent what happend.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Bobvela, you should be careful which sources you choose to site and understand why they have an agenda to smear Trayvon as somehow make him responsible for his own death.
I have smoked MANY blunts in my younger days and there's NO WAY I could have smoked a blunt completely in the short walk from the 7-11 to his father's GF's condo. I don't like the meme that if Trayvon was smoking pot, he somehow deserved his fate.
Maybe it will come out in open court, but there's been no evidence reported that a blunt was found on Trayvon's body after the shooting or among his personal affects.
The one detail that can't be ignored, except by George Zimmerman, was that Trayvon was ON HIS CELLPHONE for most his walk back to the condo. Why was this considering menacing or potentially criminal??
Also for those who believe Trayvon was dressed like a 'thug', notice the appearance of those White kids who came into the 7-11 after Martin left. One has his entire face wrapped in a scarf like a terrorist with only his eyes exposed. The other guy has a stocking cap pulled almost down over his eyes.
It might be Trayvon on the surveillance vid outside the store. It might not be. It's certainly not definitive enough to make the claim it absolutely is him.
The guy with the gun riding in the SUV still had the most responsibility to prevent this tragedy. That hasn't changed. Trayvon wasn't a stick up kid, he wasn't a cat burglar.
That Zimmerman thought he was isn't an excuse for shooting a kid dead.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Hi Bob, unlike you I never stopped thinking, and unfortunately I wasn't able to get you started. Since you couldn't make yourself read, understand and answer the points I leveled against your post I see no reason to waste more time on you. Here's a link to my previous post.
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/sho...postcount=1518
You might also try to learn how to interpret the word "if".
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giovanni_hotel
Bobvela, you should be careful which sources you choose to site and understand why they have an agenda to smear Trayvon as somehow make him responsible for his own death.
Given the attempts by the media and some on this forum to smear Zimmerman as the most evil man to walk the earth since Hitler, and paint Martin as a child saint... it's not surprising that some would dig into what has gone on and draw other conclusions. When this whole thing began I was actually anti-Zimmerman as I'd listened only to media reports which made it sound like he was the aggressor and 100% at fault... with time and information my opinion changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giovanni_hotel
I don't like the meme that if Trayvon was smoking pot, he somehow deserved his fate.
Again... that is not the claim of post I linked to, plus you'll note the last sentence of my post above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobvela
Did that mean he deserved to die? Absolutly not, but it does paint an ever clear picture as to which side had more power to prevent what happend.
To split part of what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giovanni_hotel
I have smoked MANY blunts in my younger days and there's NO WAY I could have smoked a blunt completely in the short walk from the 7-11 to his father's GF's condo.
&
Maybe it will come out in open court, but there's been no evidence reported that a blunt was found on Trayvon's body after the shooting or among his personal affects.
Never having smoked blunts, or anything else for that matter... I cannot say how long it would take to do such a thing... but have known people who will put out what they are smoking so they can finish it later. Some of the speculation from the site I linked to speculates that Trayvon could easy have ditched whatever illicit material that he was carrying just in case the police did come.
Did that happen? Only Martin really knew... however given his drug history, the alleged activates at the 7-11, and the autopsy report, it's not too hard to believe that he was smoking pot on his walk home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giovanni_hotel
The one detail that can't be ignored, except by George Zimmerman, was that Trayvon was ON HIS CELLPHONE for most his walk back to the condo. Why was this considering menacing or potentially criminal??
On his cell phone on a hands free device if the contents of Martin's pockets are to believed... making his activities less clear to an observer... but let's go back to the 911 call though (edited for length):
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911 Call
This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around looking about.
...
Yeah, now he's coming toward me. He's got his hands in his waist band.
...
Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is.
Zimmerman thought Martin was up to no good, Martin was aware of Zimmerman and decided to check him out before running. Again, this paints a picture that given the recent break-ins in the area, someone was being a good neighbor by keeping an eye out, saw someone who he didn't recognize in the area who looked to be on drugs looking odd... something that a concerned neighbor should call the police about.
Broncofan hinted at this above... while you are free in a place you are legally able to be to ask anyone else "Who are you? What are you doing here?" or most anything else you... they are just as free to say "go to hell." Unless you have witnessed a crime (of a certain level) occurring or there is a clear and present threat, you can do little more than watch and report... which is from what I can tell, what happened here before things became escalated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giovanni_hotel
The guy with the gun riding in the SUV still had the most responsibility to prevent this tragedy.
Again, I am not saying Martin deserved to die, or that Zimmerman is blameless as well... I am simply pointing out that a series of events were put in motion that both men had a say in. Both parties played a part in this and your explicit claim that Zimmerman had "the most responsibility" ignores everything else that lead to the confrontation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giovanni_hotel
That hasn't changed. Trayvon wasn't a stick up kid, he wasn't a cat burglar. That Zimmerman thought he was isn't an excuse for shooting a kid dead.
I was unaware that anyone had seriously claimed that Zimmerman got out of his SUV thinking "Hrm, he looks like a cat burglar, I think I'll shoot him just in case!"
Again, what happened was an unfortunate and tragic end to a series of events that both parties could have prevented at some point along the path... many of which the potential consequences of which were not known.
Had Zimmerman not fired
Had Martin not jumped on top of Zimmerman and repeatedly punched him
Had Zimmerman not gotten out of his car
Had Martin not walked by the car
Had Zimmerman not been suspicious of someone walking around in the rain
Had Martin not been smoking pot that night
Had Zimmerman not been on patrol that night
Had Martin not been suspended for school for drug use
Had Zimmerman not been a neighborhood watch volunteer
Had the Martin parents never had Trayvon
Had the Zimmerman parents never had George
... how far back should we go?
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
Hi Bob, unlike you I never stopped thinking, and unfortunately I wasn't able to get you started.
Really? I'd like to see some evidence of that. Instead it's more likely you are simply incapable of a rational response...
You'll note that I raised some points, you half assed addressed them (as I'd expected you to)... then I tied the whole lot together with my reply to explain the underlying point which you seemingly missed (ie "I was afraid for my life" isn't a get out of jail free card and the system is working to determine of Zimmerman's killing of Martin is/was justified/excusable). Rather than reply in kind, you hurl attempted insults? It's a shame you either didn't read or consider what I said above, because I replied to your underlying points quite well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
Just because I do not quite every single word that you said doesn't mean I didn't read or respond to your comments. In fact, if you would care to point out a part or idea of your post that I missed... I'd love to hear it! But since you fail to do any such thing here I again go back to my earlier point... you are clearly unable to respond with rational and/or coherent thought here, so instead unleash attempts attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
You might also try to learn how to interpret the word "if".
Funny... I'm a professional software engineer, that word is one of the key constructs of my industry... I'd wager I am far more familiar with it than you.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eded
That's horrible...