More George Bush Non-sense

[AllanahStarrNYC]

I have to thank whom ever posted the wonderful site
www.dubyaspeak.com
If you read some of George Bush most notable quotes on there, you have to realize what an ignorant idiot he really is!

I urge everyone to check it out ASAP!

Here is one of my favorites:

(This is an exchange between G.W. and Welch singer Charlotte Church back in 2001, as reported on MSNBC)

Bush: "So what state is Wales in?"
Church: "It's a seperate country next to England."
Bush: "Oh, OK".

And then we wonder the country is a mess.

Allanah

[Realgirls4me]

Allanah,

Why would you knock our president ? We're definitely a gooder country in the eyes of the world with dipshit in charge.

Oh, and you're welcomed. It was I who posted the link. :)

[TeeLover]

Sadly, it's not what they say but how they play. Case in point: Yucca Mountain. What a line of crap we (NV) got from his campaign trail on THAT one.

But I'm sure he has good plans for the transgendered community in the future. After all he has admitted to being a part of it himself:

"I want to thank my friend, Senator Bill Frist, for joining us today. You're doing a heck of a job. You cut your teeth here, right? That's where you started practicing? That's good. He married a Texas girl, I want you to know. Karyn is with us. A West Texas girl, just like me."
-- Dubya the gender bender in an appearance at Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee, May 27, 2004

[tsluver247]

My favorite site:
http://www.google.com
Type in Weapons of Mass Destruction
Click "I'm Feeling Lucky" instead of "Google Search"
You get a web site that looks like a error web page (Read it).

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
is the real site

[tsluver247]

http://www.factcheck.org
is another good site for deciphering the truth in Bush or Kerry's Ads.

[Vicki Richter]

I like how this board is becoming so political... or not. I mean politics are like religion. If I come in here berating other people's religions, I would expect to get an earful. I mean no offense, but who fucking cares. I mean we are throwing out ignorant quotes by someone who regardless of ignorance still managed to become the "leader of the free world." We are being told this by someone who may be more intelligent but instead aspired to be a transsexual prostitute, model, pornstar. I am not claiming to be any better than you Allanah, but please lets be realistic about what he managed to do with his life despite having an apparent past of cocaine use and lacking the skills necessary to be a jeaopardy champ. Ma and pa Kettle might not like Kerry, but again I, like anyone else, should consider the source and move on. Anyway, now I will provide my equally useless viewpoint to this discussion.

I'm not a George Bush fan, but I am even less a fan of politics, political rhetoric, and propoganda in a board where it is totally out of place. I could give a fuck about gay marriage or any person's perceptions about why the USA and England invaded Iraq. For someone soooooooooo far outside of the government to be following mainstream media and thinking they are getting the full story one way or the other, it's really almost laughable. Frankly I don't know why we invaded, but neither does anyone else on this board. If it IS for oil, maybe it was to preserve our long term way of life. I think you just had a party which, by name, should have been considered equally as tasteless as "terrorists and victims", "Nazi's and Jews", or "inquisitors and heretics". OUR country killed hundreds of thousands of Indian men, women, and children and displaced the rest and now we play dress up games with it as a theme. I don't like paying with thousands of lives (and $80 billion dollars) any more than anyone, but coming in here like you know the man and what his motivations are is just silly and inferencial. It could be that 30 years from now or if/when our country is 100% out of oil and we are still able to drive around (maintaining our standard of life) because we have a rapport with a few generations of Iraqi puppet government, that this will be hearalded as a huge win for the free world economy of the future. Again, I don't know or pretend to know, I am just throwing a different spin on it.

Democrats tend to have some really good liberal viewpoints, many that I agree with, but they take it to the extreme. People in our society have this problem with pushing accountability on to others (entitlement) and that is predominantly a Democratic trait. "What can my society give me for free". Republicans are definitely about money and over-zealous religious values that would/could seriously impact my lifestyle if left unchecked. However, I don't think I would really enjoy living in a society where everyone feels that they are entitled either.

[TeeLover]

Dubya's intelligence is a testimony to the beauty of America. Doesn't anyone remember grade school when we were all told, "Yes - ANYONE can become President..."

He proves it.

Of course it also proves that "who you know" or are related to helps as well.

Politicians are like timeshare or used car salesmen. They tell you what you want to hear in order for them to sell the product.

[Realgirls4me]

Vicki,

You should care about politics. You, as an American tax paying citizen have a vested interest in our political system given the HUGE role it has in just about every aspect of your everyday life, from the air you breathe, the water you drink, or the roads you drive on, et all. It all comes down to politics be they local or on a federal level. How can you say you don't care ? If your local city council couldn't meet the city's payroll this month for some reason, and consequently, your trash was not picked up, would you then not care ? If the moron-in-charge announced plans to invade Cuba tomorrow against the wishes of what few trusted allies this country has left around the globe, would you care, or are you failing to grasp the repercussions of such an assinine move in the eyes of the world ? I can go on, but I think you get where I'm going.
As far as the dismissal of Allanah's views go, why are you so harsh on her ? She's entitled to an opinion, whether she's part of the beltway or not. Whatever you might think of the path Allanah has taken in her life, I'll bet the house that she didn't do it with the help of her wealthy politically connected father as Dubya did, who not only worked to assure him the govenorship of Texas, but along with those connections and a Republican friendly Supreme Court, worked the system to place him in the most powerful position on this planet. Yes, let's look at what Dubya, er, nepotism, can do for one with strong political connections. If you view Bush as someone who's turned his life around via the Conservative myth that all one has to do to overcome obstacles is pray to a god, bite the bullet, and simply pull oneself by their respective bootstraps, you need to get out and read, if not witness, a hell of a lot more. He's there because of his daddy's political operatives, and the machinations of the Supreme Court, not because of what he overcame. ...I respect Allanah far more -- FAR MORE -- than I do Dubya, and she is far more articulate, if not eloquent, than Bush would ever dream of being.

...So it's okay to install puppet regimes -- as we have been doing -- and kill and maim thousands of Iraqis and American service personel to preserve our way of life ? Why is it our oil, and why don't we work on alternatives to that oil for the coming generations ? And why is our way of life more important than any other member of any other country ? Did the installing of the Shah of Iran work out for us ? It wasn't overnight, but I seem to recall American hostages being taken and held hostage because of the Shah, who was installed close to 30 years prior. So you think turning the whole mideast, and most of the civilized world against us is actually good for us as Dubya has done ?

...Your view of Liberals and Conservatives leaves much to be desired. Too simplistic. I'm not going to touch that. I don't have the time.

[Vicki Richter]

I don't think I was harsh. I just hate seeing our President, whatever you want to call him, trashed all the time. Did I vote for him? No. Did I vote against him? No. Do I think it unpatriotic to hear the President slammed during wartime? Yeah probably. Don't worry, I cringe just as much when hearing people say shit like, "If Kerry wins, I will move to another country". Just because I don't agree with the pope saying I will probably go to hell for my lifestyle, I don't call him names and mock him. It's disresectful to my religion. Similarly, I may not agree with GW, but why use some TS lovers forum as a mechanism to spread political agendas? Everyone is free to do so, but...

Finally, whatever anyone might think, I believe the people in Iraq, by and large, are legitimately happy that we are there. If we can change their society so women are treated fairly... If we can change their society so that human beings aren't slaughtered senselessly and put in mass graves... If we can change their society so that genocide isn't initiated on a people because of their religious differences... If we can change a society where the government tortures and maimes people for failure... If we can change a society whose government gives all the oil money to the top .1% instead of helping it's people... If we can change a society without an inkling of what freedom truly is, then I think it was probably worth it. Maybe not today as people continue to die, but perhaps 10-20 or 30 years from now.

Unlike most of the slams on Bush, none of what I said above is in question. It's all fact, not media hype. It's documented not by a puppet government, but by people who have been persecuted for years. Regardless of our Presidents reasons for going there, the end state should be positive for millions. What is that worth for a 5 year old girl growing up there today?

Everyone here has free speach and I fully respect Allanah's or any other persons ability to utilize it. I have that same privelidge I think. I just have a tendency to be open minded and not fixate on one person as being the problem.

[Vicki Richter]

Vicki,

...So it's okay to install puppet regimes -- as we have been doing -- and kill and maim thousands of Iraqis and American service personel to preserve our way of life ? Why is it our oil, and why don't we work on alternatives to that oil for the coming generations ? And why is our way of life more important than any other member of any other country ? Did the installing of the Shah of Iran work out for us ? It wasn't overnight, but I seem to recall American hostages being taken and held hostage because of the Shah, who was installed close to 30 years prior. So you think turning the whole mideast, and most of the civilized world against us is actually good for us as Dubya has done ?

...Your view of Liberals and Conservatives leaves much to be desired. Too simplistic. I'm not going to touch that. I don't have the time.


1 - Yes.

2 - Because we just made it ours just like generations of Americans have done before. Just like taking this country from the English, the Mexicans, and the Indians. Is it right? No. But it's not like it hasn't been done before.

3 - You honestly don't think we just started the long term improvement of Iraqi way of life and you are calling me simplistic?

4 - I have no idea if it will work. But at least we gave them a chance.

My views are extremely simplistic and I never said the contrary, but please don't pretend that you or most of the people here are vastly superior. We make the majority of decisions about people based upon a small percentage of fact, and only what we are told. We get a radical making a movie (which even he admits isn't a documentary) and everyone who sees it suddenly thinks they are Einstein in terms of politics.

Anyway, I didn't come in here to argue really.

[GroobySteven]

You didn't come here to argue yet you blurt blatently rightwing statements out which you know are going to gain a reaction? I think you came here to argue.
Just because something has been done before doesn't mean it should be done again, we're meant to learn from our past and correct mistakes that may have been made. Stupidity is making the same mistake more than once.

The one correct thing in your ramblings Vicki, is the statement;
"My views are extremely simplistic..." yes they are.
For someone so apparantly intelligent as you goes to support the theory that the line between genius and mad-man is incredibly thin and you've just crossed that line - although I don't see why I'm so surprised.
Help us all if there are more people with these views.
seanchai

[AllanahStarrNYC]

First of ALL:

George Bush didn't win the election. He won the electoral college vote,which was rigged in Florida.

Secondly, apathy i a huge problem in this country-If you are an American citezen in this country and you don't vote you should b ashamed 'cause you are taking a great privelage an right for granted. I am sure if you lived under a dictatorship Vicki, you would wish you could vote. You need to wake up and get involved cause the freedoms we enjoy can always be taken away.

Last, I know this board is made up of very intellgent people capable of dscussing politics and porn. Porn itself s very political-the very nature of this site and board, the freedom to post thoughts, is political. The nature of being a prostitue, pornagrapher, transsexual is political.

And I take issue with "bashing the President during war". AND? #1. We are fighting a war that has made America even unsafer. Where is Bin Laden? Did we manage to capture him with this war. A false war created by the administration.

#2. The right disagree & criticize the president, goverment, an our leaders is what being an American is all about. Last time checked George Bush was not made a saint or deity, so the argument that bashing the president
is like bashing religon is an empty fallacy.

[Vicki Richter]

Sigh... Senchai!!!!!!!!!! :(

I'm not a madwoman just because I have alternate views...

[Vicki Richter]

First of ALL:

George Bush didn't win the election. He won the electoral college vote,which was rigged in Florida.

Secondly, apathy i a huge problem in this country-If you are an American citezen in this country and you don't vote you should b ashamed 'cause you are taking a great privelage an right for granted. I am sure if you lived under a dictatorship Vicki, you would wish you could vote. You need to wake up and get involved cause the freedoms we enjoy can always be taken away.

Last, I know this board is made up of very intellgent people capable of dscussing politics and porn. Porn itself s very political-the very nature of this site and board, the freedom to post thoughts, is political. The nature of being a prostitue, pornagrapher, transsexual is political.

And I take issue with "bashing the President during war". AND? #1. We are fighting a war that has made America even unsafer. Where is Bin Laden? Did we manage to capture him with this war. A false war created by the administration.

#2. The right disagree & criticize the president, goverment, an our leaders is what being an American is all about. Last time checked George Bush was not made a saint or deity, so the argument that bashing the president
is like bashing religon is an empty fallacy.

You almost made all my arguments for me here. For example, you said you bet that if I lived in a dictatorship I would wish I could vote. Didn't we just give that right to the people of Iraq who have never had it? Also, if your first statement was fact, you are further agreeing with me. If the people of Florida voted for Al and GW won instead, how do we have such a great freedom that I am giving away? If that statement was true, and the largest, most important election we have as a people can be falsified, then any election can be bought.

However, the first statement you made is not factual. It is conspiracy theory. He won the election based upon the fact that after several recounts it showed him winning Florida. That is part of my point, you can't argue with National Enquirer facts. I mean you can, but they don't really hold up.

The rest of your points are great. We are probably less safe now. I never argued that I didn't want you to state your opinion or attack the President, only that I didn't really like it. You are, of course, free to critisize all you want and anyone is free to attack my opinions as well.

I am sooooo not right wing Senchai darlin. Most right wingers I know don't hold up signs outside of government buildings protesting HIV and Malaria in Africa. They are also not typically pro-choice, pro-porn, pro-anal sex, or pro-legalization of marijuana.... which I am. My parents are devout RW, my sister is hardcore liberal. I am somewhere in between. I just choose to be open minded. If tens of thousands of people have actually died for the greed of *our* (England is on on this too) primary politicians, it's a pretty sad world that we live in.

[runningdownthatdream]

Think you're wrong about them not addressing your points, Vicki.......I think they did.

Something interesting you said about Iraqis and freedom and America giving it to them........why do you think it possible that Saddam was able to keep the country under control with what has been proven to be a very flawed military while America - with the most advanced military in the world - hasn't been able to do the same? Might it have something to do with the Iraqi people not being motivated enough to topple him? But, being motivated now in opposition to the invasion of their country?

What your president has done - mortal man that he is (eats, sleeps, shits, and fucks out of necessity just like the rest of us and so subject to criticism just like everyone else) is impose a christianized westernized culture on an eastern, islamic country. No different than what England was doing 100 years ago...it's called colonialism......empire-building...it was wrong then....and it's wrong now. Read a little eastern history......you will understand some cultures survive best under what we term dictatorships.......ever wondered how come the Arab world once the flower of civilization, medicine, science, and arts remains rooted in the concept of a single, all-powerful ruler rather than a democracy?

According to your statement what America did in Iraq is correct because there have been historical precedents for a country to simply take what it wants by force.....well....what exactly would you do if if some of the fundamentalist groups in your country advocated burning you at a stake because of your peculiar sexual status? Probably turn to Seanchai and Alannah and RealGirls4Me to stand up for you...or perhaps you would willingly go to the stake cos' there has been a precedent set? You should review that statement........you strike me, and probably most people on here, as being too intelligent to say something so blatantly unintelligent.............

The last point to my ramble is that this place is precisely the type of place for people to state their views.......all from different backgrounds and all here for one purpose: transsexuals. I find it incredibly interesting to find out what people are thinking and more and more surprised at some of the unexpected things that come out.....I mean if you consider yourself simply a chick with a dick who sells it and nothing more than that then maybe this particular post wasn't for you........if you think (period) then feel free to continue debating with us................(you'll be beautiful either way)

Cheers!

[TeeLover]

First of ALL:

George Bush didn't win the election. He won the electoral college vote,which was rigged in Florida.


However, the first statement you made is not factual. It is conspiracy theory. He won the election based upon the fact that after several recounts it showed him winning Florida. That is part of my point, you can't argue with National Enquirer facts. I mean you can, but they don't really hold up.


Actually he won because the Supreme Court overruled any recount process. Florida election law mandates that with an election that close a recount is needed. Gore's appeal to the Florida Supreme Court resulted in the hand recount process. Bush appealed to the US SUpreme Court by way of a suit in Federal court and they overturned it. The oddity of it was that the hand recounts were called for in 3 heavy Dem counties where a extremely high amount of Buchanan votes showed up. Supreme Court ruled 7-2 it was unconstitutional but Florida election law says it was within Gore's right. And 50 some-odd thousands of vote-chances by "alleged" felons were removed (another scandal all together) - many them were eligible to vote under Florida law.

Congress certified the Electoral College vote. A few House Reps objected to Florida's vote and they were overruled. WHy Because it wasn't signed by a Senator (the upper house of Congress).

The whole started with the "butterfly ballot" when it was shown that Gore votes could've shown up as Buchanan votes. That style of machine now sits in the Smithsonian.

Ain't no conspiracy theory there - dem's da facts.

[TeeLover]

What your president has done - mortal man that he is (eats, sleeps, shits, and fucks out of necessity just like the rest of us and so subject to criticism just like everyone else) is impose a christianized westernized culture on an eastern, islamic country. No different than what England was doing 100 years ago...it's called colonialism......empire-building...it was wrong then....and it's wrong now. Read a little eastern history......you will understand some cultures survive best under what we term dictatorships.......ever wondered how come the Arab world once the flower of civilization, medicine, science, and arts remains rooted in the concept of a single, all-powerful ruler rather than a democracy?

Cheers!

Excellent point aout colonialism. In fact there have been recent parallels drawn between this Iraqi thing and our invasion of the Phillipines 100 years ago.
-----------------------------------

At any rate if "we" are going to free the world of all those terrible things why start in Iraq? What's next the majority of Africa? We talk about the oppression of a people - hell, there's a country in Africa (Namibia, I think) whose slavery practices put any of America's or those of the "explorers" to shame. A few others. like Sudan, have similar human rights issues that we won't take a stand on. We've changed our position on Sudan recently.

The biggest threat to Saddam's Iraq was different religious sects within his country attempting coups. Shit happens. That entire area is based on religion. And none of them are of the Texas radio persuasion.

The statement about the hostage situation in Iran wasn't the result of the Shah but the result of our admitting him to the US for health reasons. The Islamic revolutionaries that overthrew his government seized our Embassy in response to that. Iraq's invasion of Iran helped to soften their hardball attitude as much as Reagan releasing 8 billion of their frozen assests did to resolve it.

As far as the human rights issues - wha'ts going to happen there now? The hard-core criminals will get off because of technicalities? We're a country that uses the death penalty but only in a humane way. SAY WHA? To me that's the dumbest thing I ever heard but it's what we do. Why? Because someone will bitch about it. I find it hard to see why were imposing a system that is as flawed as it is on another country that has completely different standards based on religion not politics, histories, moral values, social values, etc. Great - let the chicks not wear veils and potato sacks. Let them buy beer on Sundays (whatever). But why do we have a need to socialy restructure an entire country to our standards. Calm the uprisings - but let them live the way they think is right not the way we think is right. We need to mind our own business a little more. Not that there's anything wrong in our own country.

And when I say our system is flawed I base that on the billions spent on ridiculous law suits, the bellyaching about "Big Brother" anytime the G comes out with a new law. the free speech allowing music to be filled with nothing but profanity and lyrics that are just pure shit based on violence and abuse, and just things in that order that are allowed because of political correctness, the "Why can't I do what I want" attitudes, etc. The freedoms of America are great when you look at them correctly but if you try to find any and every loophole in what should be a sound system it results in a lot of inappropriate, dangerous behavour.

Besides - if we can't conduct a clean election how do we expect to teach another country to do so?

There are too many other countries in the world that really could use unilateral help for human rights issues.

Aw crap - I think I just had 4 different conversations with myself...

Oh well - Hail To The Chef.

[TeeLover]

I think the reason for most resentment on the Iraq thing is the timing as well as the reasoning. We were still waiting for the justice on 9-11. I think most people scratched their heads when they heard about the interest in Iraq. The others just boarded the political parade float.

[GroobySteven]

The whole thing reminds me of the way the US reacted to the "C" word a few decafes back. Any country who decided to try a political system other than democracy was judged as evil. Now in principle, socialism should work but of course because of people's need to be individuals and greed (myself included) it would never work. However, merely the mention of the "C" word or associating with an individual was enough to judge them.
Now there are only two big "C's" in the world (what ever happened to China? Oh yes the West needs them to produce cheap products for Walmart) so we have to find a new enemy, a new excuse to continue production of arms and military supplies, enriching a few smarties.

I found it particularly amusing that Bush (and seconded by Kerry) denounced Castro last week for running a country that endorses prostitution. I've spent time in Cuba and although prostitution was prevalent it wasn't any near as accessable and as obvious (and as sold to the West) as countries like Thailand, Brazil, Mexico and.....the USA!!! Why didn't those countries come up for criticism? In a country where eros.com blatantly sells sex, where a shemale porn site can disguise obviously "escorts" as "personals and where the streets of any major city has streetwalkers, how can they criticise another country.....oh yeah, they're Commies! The British Labour Government is about to take their second cool step since taking power (the first being decriminilising marijuana) by legalising licensed brothels....now if Blair could only be like Hugh Grant in "Love Actually" and follow what the people thing - but we will wait to see what our new Prime Minister will do later in the year.
seanchai

[TeeLover]

Are you suggesting that Dubya subscribes to the old and out-dated philosophy of "war is good for the economy"?

And as far as Cuba goes - it's there own fault for not having a shitload of oil to sell us like Mexico does.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

Vicki,

...So it's okay to install puppet regimes -- as we have been doing -- and kill and maim thousands of Iraqis and American service personel to preserve our way of life ? Why is it our oil, and why don't we work on alternatives to that oil for the coming generations ? And why is our way of life more important than any other member of any other country ? Did the installing of the Shah of Iran work out for us ? It wasn't overnight, but I seem to recall American hostages being taken and held hostage because of the Shah, who was installed close to 30 years prior. So you think turning the whole mideast, and most of the civilized world against us is actually good for us as Dubya has done ?

...Your view of Liberals and Conservatives leaves much to be desired. Too simplistic. I'm not going to touch that. I don't have the time.


1 - Yes.

2 - Because we just made it ours just like generations of Americans have done before. Just like taking this country from the English, the Mexicans, and the Indians. Is it right? No. But it's not like it hasn't been done before.

3 - You honestly don't think we just started the long term improvement of Iraqi way of life and you are calling me simplistic?

4 - I have no idea if it will work. But at least we gave them a chance.

My views are extremely simplistic and I never said the contrary, but please don't pretend that you or most of the people here are vastly superior. We make the majority of decisions about people based upon a small percentage of fact, and only what we are told. We get a radical making a movie (which even he admits isn't a documentary) and everyone who sees it suddenly thinks they are Einstein in terms of politics.

Anyway, I didn't come in here to argue really.

Lets talk about the Puppet Goverments that we install.........
didn't really install the old goverment of Cuba but we supported its policy of almost indentured servatude (which to me is insitutional Slavery) this gave power to the revolution that happened there.

Vietnam..... another we didn't install but again supported......in fact we propped it up.... with money from the opium fields...... looked what hhappened there......................if it is at all taught in history books anymore.


Panama....Noriega..... druglord.....terrorist killer (I love Dubyaspeak) Daddy bush put him on the CIA's payroll got him to the point he took over te country and we.... excuse me our Armed forces (at a cost of alot of lives) had to go in a fetch him out.

Iran...... we set the Shah of Iran into power and he was as brutal as they come and set up Iran for the coming of their revolution and in our hatred of the new goverment.......... Rumsy..... dear dear Rumsy.......pushed for the Easing of sanctions against a person that could "give it to the Iranians" no matter the cost a true pal........ a one Saddam Hussen (sp) although he prob. watched the file tapes of Saddy killing all opposition in Iraq. here again we gave him Arms....(as did the Soviets and most of Europe) even Chemical Weapons. Then he used them against his people........"But he is still fightn' tem Towel heads"(not my words but you have heard them said before) so we kept him around........but then he invaded an oil rich country...so there we go...... had to send in our Troops to take care of another mess we created.

Bin laden........god i hate going here...... yep we helped make him by giving him and people like the taliban arms to "fight tem commie bastards"
then bombs start going off over here planes flying into buildings and we act like we donlt know him and at present still trying to hunt him and the rest of the Taliban down.

So Vicki with this kind of track record.........I ask this question 'should you rethink your position on sitting up Puppet Goverments?"

Remember.......the best way to spread democracy is by example not by warfare.

[Vicki Richter]

Mugai_hentaisha

"So Vicki with this kind of track record.........I ask this question 'should you rethink your position on sitting up Puppet Goverments?"

What is "my position" exactly? Your use of Saddam as a puppet government that we setup is false. Saddam had the third or fourth largest military power in the world at one point. This military wasn't composed of US tanks, planes, and machine guns. There is no proof to suggest that we supplied them with chemical weapons either. Document your source and move on.

Senchai

Just in a general point, I just see all your critisism of the US foreign policy in your notes, but you aren't even commenting on the fact that England was in 100% on the Iraq invasion from the beginning. Shouldn't you be critiquing your government as well?

runningdownthatdream

"According to your statement what America did in Iraq is correct because there have been historical precedents for a country to simply take what it wants by force.....well....what exactly would you do if if some of the fundamentalist groups in your country advocated burning you at a stake because of your peculiar sexual status? Probably turn to Seanchai and Alannah and RealGirls4Me to stand up for you...or perhaps you would willingly go to the stake cos' there has been a precedent set? You should review that statement........you strike me, and probably most people on here, as being too intelligent to say something so blatantly unintelligent............. "

Bad argument. We don't really have that cause or problem to fight for today. I doubt I would turn to any of them to stand up for me. I am only pointing out that if you look at history, nothing England/USA has done in this war is any different than what any empire has done in the past. I was not advocating it, in fact I said it was wrong, I am simply saying there is a historical precedent. There is this little country called Ireland...

And no, they didn't address my points. My historical points weren't acknowledged, I was insulted by Steven, and nobody has acknowledged that I have always been clear in my support for others viewpoints and ability to share them.

Overall:

In general, I like how people glance over my points and create artificial ones in their wake. I create points based upon my own perceptions which are typically rationalized with facts. Many of the points I have read consist of emotional figments and theory created from journalistic sensationalism or just conspiracy theories in general. It reminds me of all those people who stock-piled bottled water and started buying gold as we approached Y2K. They created a perception in their mind that the world was coming to an end. There was no "real" data to support that this would occur, but there were plenty of flakes out there touting the end was near... enough to sway a lot of fairly normal people to do some assinine things.

I mean shit... I never even said I supported/advocated the war did I? I simply stated some potentially positive outcomes from it and used some counter points to suggest that there "may be" some reasons for going there that most of us may not know. I was very against going to war, but since it's happened, I refuse to just finger point and assume that we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. I tend to believe the best in people and am more of a glass is half full kind of person. ...AND I don't think anyone can honestly say that there is absolutely no positive benefit possible for the people of Iraq post-war. If Iraq becomes a peaceful nation once we leave (in your lifetime), who will look back and say we did the right thing? Who of you (who many of you are suggesting our 1,000 servicemen have died for nothing or GW's greed), will agree that their sacrifice was worthwhile and meaningful? While their deaths may have been unnecessary, at least I honor them by believing they died for a cause worthy of them.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

Mugai_hentaisha

"So Vicki with this kind of track record.........I ask this question 'should you rethink your position on sitting up Puppet Goverments?"

What is "my position" exactly? Your use of Saddam as a puppet government that we setup is false. Saddam had the third or fourth largest military power in the world at one point. This military wasn't composed of US tanks, planes, and machine guns. There is no proof to suggest that we supplied them with chemical weapons either. Document your source and move on.

Here is some "proof" to back up that during the 80's we were bed buddies with good ole Saddam
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Nov2002/Scahill1102.htm

i was incorrect to imply that we set up his Gov. yeah he did that by his violent little lonesome. We just made his gov. more Viable. personally i am glad the freaking loon is out of power now.. i just wish that good ole G.W. had said something to the effect "Hey people since we got this war on terrorism lets take out the enviroments that fosters them "suiciders" if we get rid of all the dictators in the world starting with North Korea, then Iraq, and all the other countries that rule by terror then the world would be a "gooder" place to live." Hell I would have re-enlisted and gone over and fought for a cause like that. Alas he only hinted at the "doin' it for the people of Iraq." on the eve of war........ which to me signalled that even he may not have trusted the intel he was getting.

all in all Vicki you made read the above article and dismiss it or you may believe it. I am not saying it is the Gospel, I am saying look at both sides of the coin and you realize the truth lies somewhere around the edge of that coin.

Vicki like you i don't ever want to believe that 1 serviceperson has ever died for a cause such as Greed or power.... but alas i know it does happen from time to time....that was the biggest reason i think that I left the military behind....that and too many injuries, and since I am Scottish, a big disregard for authority:D

thank the gods and Goddesses that we live in a country where we can discuss things like this and not kill each other. that is our example to the world.

[GroobySteven]

We're talking about the US, Vicki not the UK - I fail seeing how re-directing to that is relevant? Maybe you need to re-read my posting as I made it pretty clear in my Hugh Grant line, how I feel about the UK policy.

I've made it quite clear in many places that despite over 80% of the UK people (read "The Observer", "The Guardian" or "The Independant") being against the Iraq War and anti-Bush it's obscene that Blair needs to feel the need to follow him like a puppy. Blair's ardent support of Bush and his sickenly Christian bonding (was I the only one to barf when they prayed together) has quite probably cost him the next election (or a great deal of the power).
Yet we were talking about Bush, Vicki...no need to redirect to muddle this clear cut discussion.
seanchai

[Vicki Richter]

Whooooah...

"Oh wow, Vikki, you still hung over from Allanahs party? It is so sad watching you stumble and trip over yourself as you try and explain away your right wing viewpoints that so mightily contradict your lifestyle and instintcs. For starters, I thought the beauty of this board was to show the girls a side of guys that isnt readily seen in clubs and party scenes (the salivating paying for a lap dance attitude). So you should welcome these postings in the midst of ladyboy pics. As for your Allanah bashing, shame on you for gratutiously mentioning her past and lifestyle in a thinly vieled jealous stab. you think she would have scripted this path for herself if born to a wealthy, aristocratic family and not been a transsexual? Perhaps so, but it seams she worked damn hard to not be a gutter girl and druggie. Look at 95% of trannies out there and compare people to their surroundings and beginings, dont mix apples and oranges. "

Jealous? Now everyone who disagrees with Allanah is jealous. First Wendy now me. Kiss my ass J. I have nothing to be jealous of there. She does her thing and I do mine. It isn't Allanah bashing. I simply stated a fact of her current profession and followed it by saying, I am no better. I may not escort, but I do work in the sex industry and in essence trade my body for money. But you're right, if I disagree with anyone, and state that viewpoint, it MUST be because of jealousy. I simply stated a fact and followed it by saying, I am not better than her. As far as whether she would have scripted her lifestyle for herself, I dunno ask her. I think we are all wired a certain way. I was born upper-middle class and I am still where I am.

2nd I am not "right wing". But fuck it. <sarcasm> I am sure since I have beliefs that the war can turn out positive in some aspects I must be "right wing" </sarcasm> I am sure you've all planted trees in Oregon in the past year and helped clean up a beach like I have. Not voting is not a right wing or comformist belief either. It's a choice. Don't fucking label me asshole.

I already mentioned the inquisition earlier in this thread. It was one of the bloodiest time periods in history and yes it was a Catholic thing. Wow this will get you going. I am proudly Christian AND transsexual. You want to go Darwin on me now? Go for it. There is no reason people can't have faith and also believe in evolution.

[Vicki Richter]

[quote=Mugai]Mugai_hentaisha

Here is some "proof" to back up that during the 80's we were bed buddies with good ole Saddam
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Nov2002/Scahill1102.htm

i.

Yeah that is great proof. I now see where you get your brilliant counter-measures to my arguments. Some radical democrat conspiracy Interenet rag. People like that scare me just as much as the radicals on the right if not more. It's probably written by some guy sitting in his basement listening to the Sex Pistols "I wanna be anarchy". Who knows, maybe he is still stock-piling gold waiting for the next stock market collapse.

My parents send me this anti-Kerry shit all the time. I am sure the right people read that and say the same stuff. That is why I don't like politics in general. The whacked out zealots who live and breathe this crap. On the far right you have people blowing up abortion clinics and throwing blood on school-children, on the far left you have Waco-like people forming malitias and planning bombings like Oklahoma City. For people somewhere in the center who can look at things rationally, we get judged too left or too right if we disagree on any one topic.

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/curTOC.htm

QUIDDITY:
Thanks
AMNESIA:
Ronald Wilson Reagan, RIP
ELECTIONS:
Commercializing Democracy
PARTY POLITICS:
The Election & the Anitwar Movement
ECONOMY:
Manipulation of Gas Prices
CONSERVATIVE WATCH:
Marketing God
MEDIABEAT:
The Rise and Fall of “Counterspin”
LGBT POLITICS:
Queer Marriage: A New Oxymoron
ECOLOGY:
Carbon Trade

[Vicki Richter]

We're talking about the US, Vicki not the UK - I fail seeing how re-directing to that is relevant? Maybe you need to re-read my posting as I made it pretty clear in my Hugh Grant line, how I feel about the UK policy.

I've made it quite clear in many places that despite over 80% of the UK people (read "The Observer", "The Guardian" or "The Independant") being against the Iraq War and anti-Bush it's obscene that Blair needs to feel the need to follow him like a puppy. Blair's ardent support of Bush and his sickenly Christian bonding (was I the only one to barf when they prayed together) has quite probably cost him the next election (or a great deal of the power).
Yet we were talking about Bush, Vicki...no need to redirect to muddle this clear cut discussion.
seanchai

If anyone wants to IM debate me on this (feel free to post it here afterwards), I am more than happy to do so. You should be happy. I am not voting. I don't care who wins. I don't like Kerry, I don't like Bush. Bush is inarticulate, but listening to Kerry reminds me of Jim Baker or some other television preacher. I promise this, I promise that... He can't promise anything... Just like our governor Arnold and his empty promises. Kerry said something the other day like "I promise every child an equal education" or some totally ficticious nonsense. Why can't people see that and say, "Wow that guy is full of shit". I care about specific issues, but politicians promise change and do nothing. What about the fact that Kerry voted for the war and as a defense claims that he didnt even read what he was voting on. That is a pretty good argument for deniability isn't it? Definitely the type of person we need as a President? Just like, "I don't recall. I don't remember." - Reagan or "I did not have sex with that woman".- Clinton

Edwards is someone I could get behind. He's more "down home" and real. Too bad he isn't running for President. Oh I liked Nader, Forbes, and Perot too. I would love to see a legitimate 3 party system.

[Vicki Richter]

Wake up, religion is holding us all back. If all the people of the world instead of praying and wasting their time would concentrate on productive measures this world would be a much better place to live in.
Vikki, its disgusting, sad and all at once laughable how, you, a transsexual, can advocate such a backwards system of values when your plight (hopefully) to enlighten people as to the inherant nature of a TS only stands a chance if the shackles of religion are removed. You think its the republicans or democrats who laugh at you when you proclaim to be a woman born in a mans body? It is progressive, opneminded liberals like me who accept you for who you are and not pre judge you. I was raised a right wing religious nut who was homophobic and mocked you. I now try and understand and actually care and, YES, feel your pain when persecuted or wrongly villified. Shame on you for not realizing who your friends are.

I have never claimed to be a woman in a man's body. That is a broken record argument that some transsexuals tell each other (only some legitimately) to bond with one another and tell society for sympathy. I have entirely different views there too. See there you go again making assumptions about me again.

I am who I am because I am happier and more comfortable this way and I like straight/bisexual men and women. I'm comfortable with a shecock.
I don't think the most progressive thing our country or the world can do is get rid of religious values. I don't condone cheating although I do believe in a poly household. However, I do believe in more traditional family values as well.

Like I said before, I am proudly Christian and feel that I have a great relationship with God. However, I do believe people can be religious and open minded/accepting as well. People need to learn to meet in the middle.

ps - kiss my ass II

[Chet_X]

Good luck, Vicki, tussling with these lefty koolaid drinkers, who, according to the grand plan, will alienate most swing voters into voting Bush, clearing the way for Hillary '08.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

Hummmmmmm somehow Vicki when i used that URL i thought to myself wow someone might just dismiss this as "left Wing conspricies" woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

so I know offer another link that explains the Rumsy and Saddy love nest :lol:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

As for Chet saying that i am a left winger.................................yeah right ask my friends i get into alot of trouble around where i live because i tend to piss off both republicians and democrats when i tell them that we should abolish the party system because it is making our people too polarized towards the goverment.

seriously if the choice comes down to Jebby Bush or Hilary Clinton in 08 (those two would def. be scraping the bottom of the barrel) I think i will abandon all the baka saru here and prob move to Holland always wanted to visit there anyway
:wink:

Nah on second thought........ i do love this country

[Vicki Richter]

J -

I never begged anyone for anything sexual and I've never propositioned ANYONE in a club in my life. I don't escort and I get sex when I want it. I guess a lot of girls "work clubs" and that's cool if they do, but it's not my thing.

Outside of you, I've had a lot of guys thank me for being so fun/friendly at the club... including one of the moderators here. Again, I am sorry you got your feelings hurt, but your private message to me (which I still have in my inbox) clearly stated that that was why you said the things you did and were upset.

Again resorting to lies, personal attacks, and petty insults does nothing to promote your cause.

My Yahoo ID is vickicali... Feel free to IM me. We can discuss this offline and post the results. The offer is open to anyone.

[Vicki Richter]

OK fine then be nice. If you want, the next time I am in NYC I will take you to dinner. You can pick but don't take me to a place over a couple hundred dollars. Maybe you can pay for the taxi. heh. Is that fair? You can explain your entire philosophy of religion and politics to me.

I made comments here really not expecting people to get so worked up. My opinions are what they are. They aren't meant to covert people to my points of view, only to defend myself and share my opinions as others have done. I am happy with who I am as a person and I am glad we could at least end this on a semi-peaceful note.

[runningdownthatdream]

Whoa...............I'd want Vicki on my team in any kinda fight! I might have to switch sides and join her this time just on principle.....seems too many of us are jumping on her all at once. I also hate the personal attacks.......c'mon that's just lame to get to that level. We were having a valid debate but it seems to have degenerated........

After further reading of the comments posted as well as Vicki's responses I think I understand a little better what she is trying to say.....everyone has made some very valid points (after throwing out the personal remarks) and I would hope we have all learned something from this discussion....................we'll surely not all see eye-to-eye but isn't it absolutely wonderful to discover that the men here think of more than just sex (specifically tranny sex) and the girls here think of more than just money.............progress at last! Now we'll forever stop thinking of Allannah and Vicki and Tara as just eye-candy (or will we!?!?!?)

I believe religion is wicked because it supposes that we are all incapable of independent thought but there are some good tenets within most of the religions I know.......I tend to be cynical about any 'view' and anyone espousing it and always try to look for the background or reason for the person to advocate it (whether it is religious or political or whatever).......I think this may be part of what Vicki is saying.......that no one party or political idea is really better per se.......it is only different and everyone has an agenda which may not be quite what they are presnting......theorizing and vocalizing is always relatively simplistic, it's putting those theories into practice that is difficult.

I love that point J made about progressive open-minded liberals.............

[ItsJustBill]

Political discussions always lead to conflict erupting. It is never wise to initiate or participate in political discussions in social settings. That said here are a few points to chew on.

1) a brief comment in a column in today's Boston Globe discusses the results of a geneologist investigation into the family trees of our candidates. It seems that Goerge W. Bush and John F. Kerry are somewhere between 9th and 13th cousins twice removed. And John Edwards and Dick Cheney are 7th cousins. As they say the apple doesn't fall far.

2) to complicate matters even more, a public discussion of politics was mixed with one about religion. Is there a worse no-no? (in fact there is. see point 3). For those who need the clarification, people who vote Republican or Democrat, or people who are Catholic or Jewish or Rastafarian will agree with certain principals, certain platforms, certain beliefs. No person believes in every word spoken because they identify themselves in a certain way. Believe it or not folks, there are Republicans who believe in abortion rights or gay and lesbian rights. Some Democrats believe in the right to bear arms or limitations on the welfare system or the benefits of tax cuts (anyone know a Democrat who returned their tax cut refund to the IRS?). There are Catholics who believe in abortion or divorce. There are Jews who believe in Jesus. There may even be Rastafarians who don't smoke pot!

3) Much more importantly, this discussion has show some ugly sides to some individuals on here. Mere weeks ago, it seems as though everyone was fawning over Vicki (and rightly so!). Scans from her new film were plastered all over this site. Drool was clearly visible in many posts. Then she presents an opinion that differs from many of you and she's virtually burned at the stake (which religion was it that was responsible for that one?). We don't all have the same opinions. We don't all have the same beliefs. We don't all lead the same lifestyles. Wouldn't life suck if we did? Yet when Vicki takes a position different from the pile on mentality that this post became, when she articulated her feelings, when she had the guts to state a counterpoint she gets attacked personally. It's easy to join in with the crowd. It's very very easy from the safety afforded by sitting behind a computer monitor with an anonymous screen name and make statements that you may or may not believe because it will help you fit in. It takes true character to speak up in opposition of the masses publically. While many choose to blast Vicki for thinking differently I stand and applaud her convictions.

Now to lighten things up an bit, go to jibjab.com, click on the link with the picture of Bush and Kerry titled "This Land" and have a laugh! And in advance, sorry Mega it's a huge file. Dial up will be problematic.

And to those I have offended with my views, I apologize. I'm also ready to duck too. Hopefully behind the same safety barrier that Vicki is using! :lol:

[Methodical]

I have to thank whom ever posted the wonderful site
www.dubyaspeak.com
If you read some of George Bush most notable quotes on there, you have to realize what an ignorant idiot he really is!

I urge everyone to check it out ASAP!

Here is one of my favorites:

(This is an exchange between G.W. and Welch singer Charlotte Church back in 2001, as reported on MSNBC)

Bush: "So what state is Wales in?"
Church: "It's a seperate country next to England."
Bush: "Oh, OK".

And then we wonder the country is a mess.

Allanah

Its people like you is why the country is a mess. Men wanting to be women. If you cant have babies your never even in contention. So the only nonsense here is your mouth. Your a man. You need to shut your mouth and get back to being gay. This country will never except you.

[GroobySteven]

What a dumb dipshit fucking prick, Methodical is.
Shit it doesn't even need a response but...

If that's your standpoint then George Bush or any president needs only be concerned with white, rich, upper class, straight (!?!) males as nothing else concerns them....oh wait a minute...

What a dumb fuck.
seanchai

[Realgirls4me]

ItsJustBill,

On your first point, Huh!?!?. So those from the article you mentioned might indeed hail from the same sorry sap, and ???
... Ronald Reagan Jr, the son of the 40th president of the United States, didn't follow the Conservative route as his father did. A registered independent junior is, he obviously fell a long way from his father's tree given the clashes he had with his famous dad on social, economic, and political issues, and continues to have with the current Bush administration. I guess I'm missing what it is you're trying to say or imply by that article.

On your second point, you need to get out a little more. I'd like to believe most of what you said, but that utopia has been elusive. There are protozoans out there who if it weren't for a working AM radio dial and the right-wing flame throwing idealogues that occupy it's airwaves would have no life at all. That is, they look to the Limbaughs and O'Reillys of that medium for all the answers to their six-pack oriented little limited world. It's who they identify with, because, well, they really have nothing else. Certainly not an education on critical thinking. ...Agitation works. Venom sells. Sophistry is their gospel and they don't even know they're being taken. They attach themselves to whatever right-wing ideology is in port and will not temper their harden views with any logic or reason. You're basing your bit on hardened stereotypes without taking into account the extremes, and believe me, they're out there.

On your third point, what does craving Vicki's body one week have to do with what comes out of Vicki's keyboard the next ? She didn't present another point of view, she presented a bunch of gobbledygook that invited response. So conquest and colonialism is okay with you also ? I have to wonder what Vicki would tell the Iraqi father I read about in the NYT who lost his three daughters (ages 5,8, and 12) to an errant American missle ? What would you tell this father ? If I'm a coward -- as you implied -- by hiding behind a keyboard and anonym, then you are even more lacking by your dearth of humanity for what we're doing to that region. How much imagination is required to recognize the suffering and misery this fucker in the White House has wrought ? Is it any wonder that 80 percent of Iraqis polled want us out ? And please don't ever accuse me, or any other TS admirer in here of taking the easy road to fit in. Can you now see how that can't work here ? Yes, duck. There is a projectile heading in your direction. ;)

Now, Methodical, is a whole different story. He is a true basket case. He would rather sit back watching Fox News hearing about men killing men, than women such as Allanah embellishing our world with beauty. Yep, Allanah is the reason the dipshit-in-charge is placing a target on anyone or anything American related for generations to come. Go back to your six pack and Michael Savage you sorry excuse for a human being.
Why are you even here ?

[Mugai_hentaisha]

Damn methodical you really screwed the pooch on that post....... wouldn't give a pint of piss for your ass at this moment.

While we have different opinions and beliefs on every subject imaginable there is a way to do it Objectively not subjectively like you did..........

While i had a different view on a subject (actually i don't i just want people to look deeper into things than what they do). I don't like Bush i respect the Office of the President just not the man who occupies it (don't really recall ever respecting the man who occupies the office due to them selling their souls to get there.).

Anyway i am off the subject I do not go around Personally attacking the people who disagree with me. Please if I did personally attack Vicki then i am sorry i didn't mean too. when you personally attack someone who disagrees with you, you are admitting that you cannot counter their arguement in an objective way so you use subjective tactics which is wrong, Methodical. Haven't you ever learned that in school. i just want you Methodical to tell me why this counrty wouldn't never accept a person like Allanah, Vicki, or Tara, tell me please........Now to be unfair to you, you cannot use Subjective arguements that stem from your Homophobic, transphobic, or whatever other phobia you suffer from. Just stick to the facts, please. Look at what makes a productive "accepted" citizen of the United States.

you have to answer these questions with the facts available.


Are they a Criminal?

Are they working for another goverment that is hostile towards the US?

Are they capable of working in a profession of legal type?

Do they love Animals.

Do they love Children, And not for just eating :lol: :lol: :lol:

See these questions are Objective.

when you base "acceptance" on Subjective questions what you get is

Nobody is ever "acceptable" because being Subjective means you run on only opinions and opinions are like snowflakes ( a hell of alot of them all different).

In closing
Methodical I wonder if I would find you "acceptable" if I were to use My Subjective Reasoning??????????????????? interesting huh :evil:

[ItsJustBill]

let me respond to realgirls.........
I'll do this point by point so that comments can't be combined to manipulate their meaning...........

the first point I was trying to make was that Bush and Kerry are from the same cloth..........THEY ARE POLITICIANS!

their views are shaped not by their beliefs but by the special interest groups that curry their favor and by their national party machinery that would not exist without the special interest money.

[ItsJustBill]

realgirls comments in regards to my comments about bringing religion into the discussion make it clear that he only values a liberal point of view. It would seem that unless some one says "raise taxes and put everyone on welfare" he'll have an issue. Further discussion with him on this point would be useless.

[ItsJustBill]

realgirls 3rd point - regarding Vicki also point out his extreme left wing bent (sorry to shove your own words down your throat). Vicki offered the opinion that at this time about half of all Americans feel. (Note to realgirls - this would not include the radical left wing.)

It's very compassionate that you feel so deeply about the Iraqi father, his 3 daughters, and the viewpoints expressed by that bastion of liberalism - the NYT. Do you feel equally for the hundreds of americans who have been killed by terror bombings in Iraq? Yes a car bomb is a terrorist tactic. What about the 1000's of Iraqis that these terrorists in Iraq have killed and maimed? Do you care about them?

Do we even need to talk abou the 3000 or so people who lost their lives in an unprovoked attack in NYC and Washington DC? What about the compassion for those families? They don't seem to matter to you as much as those 3 Iraqi girls.

I guess you would prefer to just sit back and wait for the next batch of Americans to get killed. We were attacked. I guess your view is that we should just wait until someone launches another attack, then meekly ask them to not do that again. Does the NYT write about all the terrorists that many many countries (and yes this includes countries in the same part od the world you claim that we are destroying for no reason) are now arresting because of how we defend ourselves.

You want to protest against a military response? Perhaps you should protest against the initiators of the conflict. But just like in sports, the original foul is missed, the response is what is noticed.

[Realgirls4me]

LOL! So their lineage has some starch blocker or combination of cells dictating they be politicians ?

I always find it amusing on how right-wing clowns such as "ItsjustBill" conveniently place the onus of being open-minded to those of us on the left of the political spectrum, but rarely does it come back and apply to them. I mentioned nothing about religion, but we can go there if you'd like.

I was impressed by Chet's take on a few issues, as he clearly demonstrated that he is not some right-wing nut by what he has or hasn't endorsed in the past. I see some Conservative streaks there, but he is far from the Tom DeLay/Oliver North crowd I thought he was. Care to show us your "openness" ?

[Vicki Richter]

OK I am glad to see some additional commentary in here. At least it isn't all one sided.

Real... What would I tell the father of the children who died of an errant missle strike. To be honest, I don't know. That is a sad story. However, if the end result is a form of liberation, then the cost might not be that great. The 100% liberal viewpoint only looks at the death we cause as needless, but not the deaths we potentially deflect. For example, what about all the people being mass murdered before us?

300,000? 400,000? 500,000? Just murdered and thrown in a hole. Nobody telling their families. Many innocent. Some truly wanting to plot a revolution. Some just killed because they were different religion? That must be really nice huh? What if we didn't do anything to stop Nazi Germany?

http://trojanhorseshoes.blogfodder.net/archives/009311.html
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/7443953.htm?1c

Since you are throwing out "how would you feel" banter... How would you feel if you came home and found out that your entire family was taken into custody. You went to the police and were told nothing. In fact, nobody you talked to would tell you anything... What if 10 years later, still none of them had been seen? Your whole family. I guess that would suck.

---------------------------------------

We lost 1000 soldiers in the first 10 minutes of one major battle in WWII

At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War

The Department of Defense reports that 54,246 Americans service men and women lost their lives during the Korean War

VietNam = http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

-----------------------------------------

"With the absence of any opposition to communism, Cambodia and South Vietnam fell into communist hands simultaneously. Twenty-five percent of the population of Cambodia were executed, meaning the loss of 1,500,000 lives. The total number of executions of Vietnamese under Ho Chi Minh may have been in the order of between 15,000,000 to 20,000,000. There will never be a full accounting. When more than a million people are driven to leave a country in small boats as an almost suicidal alternative, something terrible beyond ordinary belief must be happening there."

What I am saying is sometimes war, while a bad thing, has positive results for the people. How many people have to die while people turn the other way and ignore their suffering? How many lives could we have saved if we got involved in WWII earlier? Did innocents die along the way? Yes. Women? Children? Yes. How many innocents died in Kuwait when Saddam invaded? There are factual tales of rape and murder and descruction of oil fields which sustained the countries way of life. None of this is up for debate.

If you ask me, did we NEED to invade Iraq, my answer is no. If you ask me whether or not someone, from a human rights perspective, should have done something sooner, probably yes. Did we do it for human rights? No. But, just the same, that could be an end result. The key word is "COULD".

NOW... Does anyone debate any of the FACTS I have stated above? My opinions and perceptions are clearly noted, but the facts are:

- We have lost VERY few servicemen in this war relatively speaking to other wars
- Saddam tortured/killed a lot of fucking people for nothing
- The war outcome COULD have positive impact to the people living in the country
- Turning the other way isn't always the right approach to world policy
- Sometimes war is a necessary evil to prevent propogation of worse activities

I've never said that this war wasn't about oil and that wasn't someone's motivations, only that I choose to believe that there was a more moralistic stand involved on some level.

Please if you disagree with the facts I have presented, by all means submit your data. I am far from a right wing war monger; I prefer to consider myself open minded.

[GroobySteven]

Oh dear...

[Realgirls4me]

Vicki,

I'll address your "facts" as briefly as I can without getting too much in depth. It's time for me to hit the sack. :)

We have lost VERY few servicemen in this war relatively speaking to other wars.

Huh ? This is a far different kind of war. How many brothers, sons, fathers, uncles, or close friends did you lose ? I wonder how detached you would be if any of the aforementioned hit your home. I guess it's okay to root for a war when one is desensitized from its horrors, or doesn't know anyone personally fighting or dying in that region, right ? One Iraqi or American life was too much. The fact is that we did not have to go to war with this thug or his country. There was absolutely no reason for it as time and reflection has finally revealed. Today there would be close to 1000 American service personel looking forward to a future instead of pushing up daisies thanks to King George. How many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians did our bombing kill, by the way ? Ten ? Fifteen thousand ? Do they matter ? Do they bleed or feel pain ? The defense report that came out about two months ago revealed that their early targeting of bombing were basically guesses and not based on any hardcore intelligence, or better said, that they really did not know where Saddam's henchmen were staying during the early stages of this needless slaughter and just dropped bombs randomly. And please don't compare this "war" with real wars, particularly in the context of the Cold War, which can arguably be debated, particularly Vietnam. You're really reaching on the "What ifs" there. This, as was the first Gulf War, was a needless slaughter in order to keep the oil pipelines flowing, and to provide the west with another import/export platform. By the way, how are those democratic reforms going in Kuwait ? I seem to recall ...

Saddam tortured/killed a lot of fucking people for nothing

A brutal thug he is/was, but can you tell me how many were being killed or gassed while he was an ally of ours ? How many mass graves were filled while Rumsfeld was bear hugging good ol' Saddam ? Which country was it that issued Hussein a billion dollar "farm aid" loan right after he gassed the Kurds, by the way ? ... Imagine if you're an Iraqi citizen observing all this. First the U.S. sponsors this murderer for a period of years; Then we attack the country (killing 250,000 Iraqis) after telling Hussein we wouldn't get involved in his border skirmishs with its neighbor, Kuwait; Then we (the U.S.) endorse and implement measures to make sure the UN embargo is tighter than it was intended to be killing up to 5000 Iraqi civilians(Madelynn Albright thought it was worth the price also mind you), mostly infants and elderly, a month for 13 years according to the Red Cross -- we simultaneously impose a no-fly zone with F-15s firing missles and dropping bombs for that period also; And if that isn't enough death and emasculation of that country, dumbfuck Dubya decides he needs to display his testosterone by leading his sheep to attack this country once again, all for greed and political purposes (gain) mind you. No wonder they want us out and why that region has become a hotbed for terrorists bent on getting even with the U.S. and other western powers. No wonder they hate us in the mideast. If they didn't before, they certainly do today thanks to dipshit.

The war outcome COULD have positive impact to the people living in the country

You mean like we are leaving Afghanastan ? It could have positive results, but I seriously doubt it, at least not in the short term. As long as the United States has, or is perceived of handpicking or having a say of who the powerbrokers of that country are, it won't. I wonder what the Bush Administration would do if the Iraqi people democratically elected a former henchman of Saddam with anti-western views ? What do you think ? What hubris of the Bush Administration to dictate to them how to govern and live their lives, but we all know why they're doing it. ...at least some of us do. They're not going to forget that the US has been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.They're not.

Turning the other way isn't always the right approach to world policy
Neither is bombing a country for no legitimate reason. Why do we turn the other cheek when it involves the Saudis ? Bush not only squandered -- SQUANDERED -- world sympathy for 9/11 with this attack of Iraq, but has turned allies against us. All those millions around the world who protested the onset of this war were on to something. Get on board.

Sometimes war is a necessary evil to prevent propogation of worse activities

Yeah, right, by destablizing the region, and placing targets on anything or anyone smelling like a westerner ? The fact that half the world's known oil reserves just happen to lie in that region has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. It's all about our fix with cheap oil and not about our freedoms or liberty.

"Moralistic stand" ? Do you know how many thugs this country has aligned itself with ?

"Oh dear" is right, Sean. :)

[Mugai_hentaisha]

When it comes down to it

Vicki your evidence is accurate My only addition would have been our President being up front and honest with the American People about our reasons for wanting to go to war with Saddy. He should have said hey people we have this evidence that he tortures people for nothing. there are more graves in Iraq and so on and on. this is evidence we knew about at the time and we knew........we knew that we would find the mass graves and such. but why didn't he do it...........1. to put it their way "i don't care what he does if you ask me thar a bunch of Ragheads anyways" and the Big reason............2. to go to war on those reasons means you have to take on bigger enemies than a man we had imprisoned in his own country (I.E No fly Zones) hell he wasn't a threat to his neighbors........ he couldn't have even farted in their general direction without getting a sidewinder up his ass. We would have to take on Enemies like.....gulp North korea. Saddy is a bad bad bad man but to me he studied under the present ruler of North Korea... Saddy tortured people and gassed them..... hell the leader of North Korea is slowly letting his whole population Starve to death to fight a war he can't win.

Real your right as well
we knew of the stuff he was doing at the time Rumsy was boffing him (politically) and we did nothing....why.......because the bulk of it was directed at Iran and Iran had given us te Rasberry, thats why.

i purpose that we force our goverment to get congressional approval before we open relations with these 2-bit dictators and start giving them weapons and such because they are fighting someone we don't like. While it may not stop all of these deals with the devils it would get them public (to a point) and that undoubtably would cut down on many i mean many of servicepeoples lives.

Thank you to all who debate on this thread.......makes me proud to be a Scot and you know All of us Scots love a good fight.......and good scotch as well. :P

[Vicki Richter]

Great reply "Mugai". Very articulate arguments/points. Some of the best I've seen in this thread.

OK, response "Realgirls" and some very good points to support your arguments. However, the response to we have lost very few servicemen needs work. Again, I just pointed out that, based upon historical data and statistics, we may have saved more lives - even within a 1 year span of time, that Saddam would have murdered. How do you weigh human life? If it's done from a malicious dictator, we should just ignore it... maybe use "diplomacy" to stop it? Yeah that worked... or not. Your answer is: "It's not our problem. Let them kill innocent people and force an entire society into living in one of the harshest regions of their country. Who cares. At least nobody will die by our hands."

Again, regardless of the reasons, you might consider that someone has a moralistic obligation to assist the people being persecuted. How many people in that country would have died by a civil war? Hundreds of thousands?

[ItsJustBill]

I always find it amusing on how right-wing clowns such as "ItsjustBill" conveniently place the onus of being open-minded to those of us on the left of the political spectrum, but rarely does it come back and apply to them.

It's interesting how realgirls can comment on open-mindedness when he's the one criticizing people who listen to O'Reilly or Limbaugh and calls them extremists. I'm sure there are no truthful viewpoints expressed by those talk hosts. Meanwhile, I'm sure he listens to NPR or Franken and has no problem reading the liberal print media and believing everything that's printed. To the rest of you, yes I'm momentarily sinking to his level in the hope that he'll recognize the hypocrasy of his comments.

I also notice that he conveniently passed over the comments about American lives and foreign national lives lost in the attacks on our soil, as well as American and Iraqi lives lost at the hands of Iraqi terrorists. I guess the kidnap victims who face beheading are of no concern to him either. None of them fit into his rant.

[Chet_X]

I've been to 14 county fairs and three--maybe four--goat-fucking contests, but this ( http://www.wvgazette.com/webtools/print/News/2004071346 ) beats all:

July 14, 2004

Couple in anti-Bush T-shirts were arrested at president’s speech

By Tara Tuckwiller
Staff Writer

A husband and wife who wore anti-Bush T-shirts to the president’s Fourth of July appearance aren’t going down without a fight: They will be represented by lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union as they contest the trespassing charges against them Thursday morning in Charleston Municipal Court.

Police took Nicole and Jeff Rank away in handcuffs from the event, which was billed as a presidential appearance, not a campaign rally. They were wearing T-shirts that read, “Love America, Hate Bush.”

Spectators who wore pro-Bush T-shirts and Bush-Cheney campaign buttons were allowed to stay.

“We weren’t doing anything wrong,” said Jeff Rank. The couple, who said they had tickets just like everybody else, said they simply stood around the Capitol steps with the rest of the spectators.

“We sang the national anthem,” Rank said.

The Ranks hardly fit the image of rabble-rousers. Jeff Rank, 29, has a master’s degree in oceanography. Nicole Rank, 30, has degrees in biological science and marine biology. They have been married for seven years.

Nicole Rank arrived in Charleston soon after the Memorial Day floods. She was working as deputy environmental liaison officer for the Federal Emergency Management Agency, making sure cities and counties obeyed federal environmental laws as they repaired roads and bridges.

After police arrested the Ranks, fingerprinted them and took their mug shots, FEMA told Nicole Rank she was no longer needed in West Virginia.

[TeeLover]

Interesting article. Sounds typical for Dubya. The best part of it was this:

"Since Bush took office in early 2001, people have been banned from displaying anti-Bush messages at dozens of Bush appearances across the country."

Can you imagine how tongue-tied and hostile he would be if he had to deal with a heckler?

He did it with past-living presidents out of fear that they would get something done that he can't. Why not with people who don't agree with him. I guess he'll revise the 1st amendment to read "... as long as they all like me , that is."

This good ole boy has issues. Reminds me of a picked-on little short kid who finally is coaching his own basketball team. It even shows in his walk.

Hail To The Chef...

... or else.

[Vicki Richter]

Maybe this is a more unbiased opinion:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0715-07.htm

Some unemployed guy and his EPA wife got arrested by the police because of concerns over their own safety.

Ever heard of far far far left Green Peace people getting arrested for driving their little boats out in front of whaling vessles? Same thing.

Of course I wouldn't expect anyone here to actually research sensationalism as long as it supports their viewpoint. :P

[GroobySteven]

Oh dear, oh dear....Vicki...

[Vicki Richter]

I wuv you Senchai. :P

[GroobySteven]

...although you never get my nickname right! I know they keep screwing yours up on video releases (keying in every DVD we have into a database over the last week) but no need to do the same to my name.
seanchai

[Vicki Richter]

oops..

seanchai... my bad.

I've always wondered about that nickname.

[GroobySteven]

Celtic for storyteller...and I had it from the first week I went online, so even though most people know my real name, it's easier to keep it as my internet name.
seanchai

[Vicki Richter]

Can I have a hug?

[GroobySteven]

I'll blow a warm and wet fart over the Pacific for you to relax in.
seanchai

[runningdownthatdream]

..........................and on that note:


http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/index.html

I think we've worn out the topic..........everyone is entrenched in their opinion and it doesn't appear there will be any compromise....at least not on this forum.............

[Chet_X]

Wow, Vicki, good return on that protest arrest POV. I wasn't FOR going to Saddamville...but since we're there, I hope we continue to hunt down and eliminate these pricks, even if we have to kill 100,000 of them to stomp this jihad. Could be a "greatest generation" thing 50 years from now. Should have been done after the '72 Olympics.

Way to go, Canada! Al Jazeera: OK. Fox News: No way. That's using your heads. Go fuck a maple tree.

Couldn't GW have mixed a Dale Carnegie course into that education? He is no communicator, for sure--but I can't believe he's a retard. Scary reformed-drinker religious guy, yes. Not happy about the crusade against obscenity, gay marriage, stem cell research.

[TeeLover]

Well I finally got around to seeing F911. Interesting collection of snipets. Most of what was presented about his business ties and involvements can be found thru simple research as well as things that were not in the movie. I didn't see any mention of Salem bin Laded's fatal Texas plane crash. I do appreciate the pain of families of the soldiers killed in action but I feel Moore was trying a little too hard on the public tears soapbox with it.

I agree with Mega that anyone who gets that Bush had something to do with the 9-11-01 events missed something along the way. To me Bush looked more like a man who grossly underestimated the end results of a threat he was aware of and expected to be carried out. Almost as if he was thinking,"Crap - I thought he would just blow up a plane or two."

I also think that Moore should've gone a little further in depth about the election: Florida's recount law, Gore's legal right to request a hand-count in a few counties, Bush landing a suit in Fed Court to stop that, etc.. However, I didn't know about the eggings of the Bush motorcade in DC.

I can see why Bush's administration would be a little worried about the movie - it does seem to be able to influence people looking for a reason to NOT like Bush.

I'm just glad that I thought he was a self-serving nitwit before the movie came out.

Seanchai - still taking stubs for the LadyBoys?



I love free speech.
-- Dubya's comment upon being challenged by an Australian Senator during his speech at a joint session of the Australian parliament, and as the Senator was being asked to leave the premises. In case you're wondering, the White House condenses the content of the senator's free speech to two words: "audience interruption". Canberra, Australia, Oct. 23, 2003

[TeeLover]

http://www.redcoat.net/pics/Bush2.jpg

Says it all...

[Realgirls4me]

I always find it amusing on how right-wing clowns such as "ItsjustBill" conveniently place the onus of being open-minded to those of us on the left of the political spectrum, but rarely does it come back and apply to them.

It's interesting how realgirls can comment on open-mindedness when he's the one criticizing people who listen to O'Reilly or Limbaugh and calls them extremists. I'm sure there are no truthful viewpoints expressed by those talk hosts. Meanwhile, I'm sure he listens to NPR or Franken and has no problem reading the liberal print media and believing everything that's printed. To the rest of you, yes I'm momentarily sinking to his level in the hope that he'll recognize the hypocrasy of his comments.

I also notice that he conveniently passed over the comments about American lives and foreign national lives lost in the attacks on our soil, as well as American and Iraqi lives lost at the hands of Iraqi terrorists. I guess the kidnap victims who face beheading are of no concern to him either. None of them fit into his rant.

ItsjustBill

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Bill. I just lo-o-o-o-ovelistening to the onesided drivel of "talk" (hate) radio where "truth" is always king amidst the sounds of rustling paper as a backdrop. The truth might get bent, tweaked, cherrypicked, embellished, and massaged everyday by its hosts to echo their biases and Conservative ideology, but so what, right ? Why listen to NPR's boring civil, rational, informative, and intelligent discourse presenting all sides when we can have Limbaugh, Hannity, and other right-wing idealogues such as Bill O'Reilly, providing all the answers to one narrow myopic view such as how Liberals and Democrats are the bane of all that is wrong with this country. If these guys really are the truth merchants you implied they are, and not money grubbing divisive frauds preying on a listener's untethered and impressionable ire and fears, answer the following for me, Bill:

* Why do they screen their calls so much only taking calls that agree with them ? It seems to me they might be shorting their audience presenting only one side there, Bill.

* Why are they rarely -- RARELY -- ever quoted as credible sources by other news mediums ?

* Why do they rarely make any appearances outside of Conservative functions ? What are they afraid of ? It seems to me that if one can dish it out ...

* Why do they overlook or dismiss a Conservative's gaffe ? I don't think one of them covered the recent Ryan saga ( The Republican running for the Senate whose wife accused him of forcing her to do some public nudity[?] or sex acts[?] )

Also, Franken will challenge his detractors on the air and in person. The above aforementioned only in the safe confines of their studios, where they control all the strings and frequently cut opposing views off while they keep talking.

As far as your second point goes, I'm concerned about anyone and everyone dying in this illegal and unnecessary attack of a sovereign country, which had NOTHING to do with 9/11. My prior posts will confirm that. The reason I bring up others dying is that close-minded, noncritically thinking morons such as you can only process what they hear and see courtesy of Fox News, or your favorite radio charlatan. That is, what you want to see. Anything different and you start to implode like Robby the Robot did in the sci-fi classic, Forbidden Planet in his final scene. You see the Twin Towers tragically go down on "our soil" taking 3000 innocent lives with them, or read about an American being captured or beheaded, but have nowhere near the depth, compassion, resourcefulness, education, or intelligence to process the tens of thousands of citizens who have suffered or died via our country's hands through illegal wars such as the current one, or oppresive U.S. policies that continue to treat that part of the world -- their soil -- like our back yard due to our vital interests (read:oil). There are reasons and precedents for their hatred of this country, and it's not because they hate or envy are freedom or liberty as clowns such as dipshit Dubya or Rush would have you believe.

I noticed you dodged my questions, Bill. You didn't answer one. If you're going to point a judgemental finger at me, why don't you prove to everyone in here just how tolerant and open-minded you are of the other side ? I'm not afraid to admit right now that I admire and respect Conservatives such as the late Barry Goldwater, or Senator Chuck Hegel, columnist Cal Thomas or CNN's Tucker Carlson to name a few. I obviously don't echo their political phylosophies and rarely have agreed with them on an issue or topic given my liberal listing, but I respect them nevertheless for a myriad of reasons.
Now it's simply your turn, Bill. Show everyone in here just how tolerant, accepting, and open-minded you are of the other side. Tell us about some Democratic/Liberal phylosophy you agree with, or a Democrat/Liberal politician you respect. Come on. Show us your tolerance and open-mind, Bill. Show us who the real hypocrite is.

( I predict he can't do this, guys. Unlike Conservative Chet-X, people such as Bill live in a black and white world devoid of anything that doesn't fit his us versus themmodel. It's simply easier to make sense of a complicated world that way )

[Realgirls4me]

This has floated around in cyberspace for some time, but I thought I'd repost it in here for ItsjustBill to see.

Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:

Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is Communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital for a spirit of international harmony.

The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi- national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

Jesus loves you and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.

If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

HMOs and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.

Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

A president lying about an extramarital affair is a impeachable offense.A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution,which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host (Limbaugh). Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have the right to adopt.

What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the '80s is irrelevant.

:)

[Chet_X]

Real, you gotta admit it is hilarious to watch O'Reilly's head explode when it comes to gay=releated issues. . And Alan Colmes...who has a more difficult job than he, trying to make sense of the chaos created by the smarmy Hannity? Though Hannity did raise a lot of money for families of fallen soldiers, so I guess he's not a total prick.

I quit listening to NPR after being Terri Grossed out (is she still the Fresh Air host?). Surfing the Himalayas my ass. The tone of that station is too serene and brain-washy to keep me alert in traffic. Or did they liven the broadcast up a bit after canning Edwards just shy of his on-the-air milestone anniversary? Classy move. If it's okay for NPR to rid themselves of Edwards, why is it not ok for the US to destroy monsters it created?

[twowaybro]

This says it all....the whole American poltical establisment needs an overhaul. This is a one party system and has been so 4 quite some time now. Other than a few superficial social issues these guys pretty much support the same WASP, Elitest, corporate, globalist agenda at the expense of the ordinary American citizen. Plus everyone in the know is aware that "Dubya" is bi-sexual and has had a ongoing relationship with the former mayor of Knoxville, TN since his college days. Can u say hypocrite....naw just an exploiter of this current "conservative" mood swing in contemporary America. I'll be siiting this one out, thank you. 8) 8)

[Realgirls4me]

Tick

Tick

Tick

Tick

... Still waiting for ItsjustBill to demonstrate how open-minded he is to other politicians, entertainers, pundits, views, and positions, from the other side of the aisle. Come on, Bill. Tell us about your admiration for, say, Mark Green, Paul Begala, Barbara Lee, Noam Chomsky, Tim Robbins, or Gore Vidal.

Tick

Tick ...
_________________________
Chet,

O'Reilly is a egotistical fraud and a clown -- A CLOWN. I watch his show as often as I can for comic relief. I don't know which I laugh hardest at: Everytime he calls himself a journalist, or when he tells his audience he's an independent free from partisanship and prejudices. Although I have to give he and Fox News president(?) Roger Ailes credit when credit is due for successfully transplanting talk radio to TV and making it work. You gotta give this BS Republican spinster and apologist his props for making his chicanery work. "No-Spin Zone" ??? Try pure spin zone.
... Can you imagine Murrow or Cronkite hawking merchandise at the end of their news programs, talking about how they "slaughtered the competition", telling their audiences that certain people are hiding from him (He offers no proof, just his word) because they're afraid to face him, or rudely cutting their guests or interviewees off when they turn O'Reilly's emotional rants on their ear with reason or logic ?

www.oreillysucks.com

I never understood the NPR Edwards canning, as did millions of loyal listeners. As far as the US destroying the monsters it created, my question is why does it allow them to flourish to begin with ? I realize the answer isn't that easy, but how can the Bush Administration, or any administration for that matter, look at the American public and deny its complicity ? I would be far more tolerant of many of these foreign blunders if they just came right out and admitted they fucked up, instead of reducing it to some good versus evil model it sells to the American public.
________________________
Twowaybro,

I like Vidal's quip about this country having one party with two wings. It's really true. Sure, they differ on salient social issues, but on the meat and potatoe issues such as promoting the sending of jobs overseas, or providing health care for EVERY American, both parties offer basic lip service. republicans are there basically for the wealthy, and when was the last time one heard a Democrat talk about restoring funding to HUD (Which Reagan drastically cut), so we can get the homeless off the streets ?

... I'm voting for Ralph. Why ? Well, because he stands for the ideas I believe in. Why should I vote for one party simply to keep another party out of the White House, both of which are part of a corrupted system ? It's my way of protesting this two wing/one party system. I'm tired of this lesser of two evils crap.

[Chet_X]

Kerry would be well served to muzzle that Zsa Zsa Gabor wife of his...she looked like a total douche, denying that she dropped the un-American bomb, then going out of her way to tell reporter C McNik to shove it. If she is smart, she'll apologize. Also, JK should learn to hurl a fucking baseball like a man, instead of some polo-playing blue blood, if he's going to throw out a first pitch. GHW Bush threw like a girl, too--strange, when the record shows he started at 1B on a college world series team.

I saw Ralph the last night--might have been on O'Rielly ( I love it when Sweet Ole Bill reminds us that he is 6'4" and ready to kick ass). Seems like the only candidate with a plan. Until we get more than two choices we are screwed, as Vicki and two-way bro point out.

Why is it AMerica embraces rematches in sports but not politics? Gore shoulda got another shot. The man can throw a football. plus he can speak--I love listening to the Prince of Tennessee's voice so much I might buy Earth in the Balance, or whatever his book was, on Books on Tape, to hear his bed-time story tones whenever I need nerve-unjangling.

By 2010, Hillary will be President and Bill will head the U.N. By 2020, the Islamic populations of France and Germany will be calling the shots.

[ItsJustBill]

Joe Lieberman is someone i respect.......has a lot of great ideas
Jimmy Carter did a shitty job as President but he is a phenominal human being.
Dick Gephhardt has done a great job in the House.
Barbara Boxer, Joe Biden, Robert Byrd........great senators.
The late Huphert H. Humphrey - a great man.

I like listening to Mike Barnicle, Paul Begala.......

I read the Boston Globe every day.

Note: These are examples......not a comprehensive list.

[Realgirls4me]

My sincere apologies to you, Bill. I stand corrected. I jumped the gun in attempting to pigeonhole you into a one-sided Conservative nut. Keep on listening and reading what the other side has to say.

Chet,

The only thing taller than O'Reilly's height is his ego. He's got Micheal Moore -- a favorite target of his show of late -- on his show tonight, and I'm naturaly curious as to whether ol' Bill will resort to his tactic of taping the encounter in advance so he can edit the parts where he left with egg on his face. He does this with guests who have exposed him in the past ... I'll never forget the encounter he once had with Barney Frank a couple of years ago. Frank pasted his ass for the world to see, and thus, Frank has not been on his show since.

* Kerry muzzle his wife ? Nonsense. It's a bit refreshing to see a candidate's significant other dispense of decorum and speak her mind, particularly toward a Conservative reporter (paper) that hasn't been to kind to either in the past.

* I would just to see Gore and Dubya square off in a debate. We all know now what a pig in the poke ol' Dubya has turned out to be on the intelligence arena.

* What a lot of Americans don't understand is that countries such as France have a heavy Muslim population, thereby giving them good reason -- one VERY good reason -- for not participating in preemptive gaffes such as Dubya's. Imagine if the US had that percentage of mideast Muslim immigrants existing here ?

[ItsJustBill]

[quote="Realgirls4me"]* I would just to see Gore and Dubya square off in a debate. We all know now what a pig in the poke ol' Dubya has turned out to be on the intelligence arena.

wouldn't that debate be 4 years too late???????

[ItsJustBill]

also, I have more problems with the candidates then with the democrat/republican issue. I firmly believe that being a governor better prepares a candidate to be president then being in the Senate does. It also concerns me that someone could be in the Senate for 20 years and be sitting on such minor committees. Not to mention the dearth of meaningful legislation that he's sponsored.

Then we get to the running mate. John Edwards has spent his career as a personal injury lawyer. Seriously, is there a worse profession known to man? He has served almost one term as a Senator and this is his first foray into politics. It has been stated many times that it was very doubtful that the residents of North Carolina would have re-elected him to a second term. The Vice President should be about substance, not appearance.

Has G.W. Bush been a great President? No he hasn't been. Sometimes, the devil you know is better then the devil you don't. Yet remember, prior to Iraq, his satisfaction ratings were as high as anyone's ever. It's a shame that more qualified candidates then Kerry/Edwards did not emerge as a challenge. John Kerry scares me. Kerry's judgement in selecting Edwards scares me. The thought of John Edwards being one aneurism away from being President is fodder for a Hollywood horror tale.

[Chet_X]

Real...but don't you think it funny that she actually said the words "un-american" while lecturing on civility , only to have it go so wrong? If she didn't say it, I'd agree with you. Her poor dead husband must be clawing at his casket lid

Great exchanges on Hannity radio with Hoffa, Rev. Jackson, Chas. Rangle (?) today. I really wish we had an air-america station in this area. The Hannity appearance on Franken must have been hi-fucking-larious. We have one lefty talk show host in this market (not counting Stern, whose politics are completely self-serving). And she, being a Jew, admits to being disturbed at the far-laft's abandonement of Israel.

O'Rielly and Sharpton had a terrific segment a week or so ago, and I thought Al held his mud admirably. Very entertaining.

Hope you watch the Daily Show on COmedy Central. Colbert did a great spoof on O'Rielly with his No Fact Zone