Students Protest Transgender Teen’s Use of Girls’ Locker Room- What Are Her Rights?

[jamesedwards]

Here we go a fucking gin!!!!!

Students Protest Transgender Teen’s Use of Girls’ Locker Room: What Are Her Rights?

A transgender teen in Missouri is at the center of a heated debate about her right to change in her high school’s girls’ locker room.

Nearly 200 students walked out of Hillsboro High School on Monday in a protest that lasted two hours.

Lila Perry, the 17-year-old at the center of the debate, reportedly identified as a gay male until she was 13 and publicly came out as transgender in February. She previously used a gender-neutral faculty bathroom but began changing in the girls’ locker room this school year before her physical education class.

Protesters were divided: One side supported Perry’s right to change in the girls’ locker room; the other wants her to continue to use the gender-neutral bathroom.

“It wasn’t too long ago white people were saying, ‘I don’t feel comfortable sharing a bathroom with a black person,’ and history repeats itself,” Perry told Fox News.

She also assured parents that she is not going to “hurt” their daughters. “I’m not going to expose myself. I’m not a pervert,” she says. “I’m a transgender woman. I’m a girl. I’m just in there to change, do my business, and if they have any questions about being transgender, they are more than welcome to talk to me, and I’ll be happy to explain it.”

Perry says she began using the girls’ locker room because she didn’t want to feel segregated.

But some female students say they’re uncomfortable because, while Perry wears dresses and a wig, she still has male genitalia.

“I find it offensive because Lila has not [gone] through any procedure to become female,” student Sophie Beel told Fox. “Putting on a dress and putting on a wig is not transgender to me.”

Some parents also argue that many are left feeling uncomfortable to accommodate one person. “The girls have rights, and they shouldn’t have to share a bathroom with a boy,” Tammy Sorden, who has a son at the high school, told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. She added that it’s not right to give Perry special treatment “while the girls just have to suck it up.”

https://www.yahoo.com/health/stude
nts-protest-transgender-teen-39-s-1248252992708662.html
-----------------------------------------------

Now see, this is some crazy shit, the Transgender was given a way out by using a gender neutral facility. Why the fuck would this Transgender person go and violate girls? This is why Straight people don't want to fuck with gays, Transgenders etc, because some where along the line they always do some thing to fuck up the rules.

I agree with the woman the TG has no right to impose his shit on girls. Him telling people he's not going to hurt the girls is not the point, and to me his thinking is fucked up. Straight people don't give a fuck about having knowledge about gays or TG's. All they know you are gay or TG or lesbo and the shit is wrong, that's all they see. And they have a point. You can't give TG's rights over theirs that shit makes no sense. Girls walk out, fuckes up their education because the TG violates where to dress up. Everybody is not comfy with this shit and people need to understand this. Technically the girls are right, he is a guy with a fucking wig on and has a penis, the TG is a guy, he wants to be a female, naturally the TG is not!

I am looking at this guy and some thing is dismal about this TG, this shit is deeper than just being a TG, the TG need counseling!!!

Now notice they didn't say he would go in the boys locker, but I know why since the TG is claiming to be a girl there shouldn't be a boast, well their better not be or this can turn out ugly. See the TG thought he could do this to the girls, because they are just girls and they stood their ground and said fuck no you are not violating us. Technically you're not a girl that's why you have TG on as a title and was given a neutral space to dress and some how you feel you need to dress in the girls locker room? this shit is crazy!

http://i58.tinypic.com/2mzxxe9.jpg

[Hemi Royd]

What people do for attention,,Things that make you uhmmmmmmm,he surely is a cross dresser,and perhaps want to check the girls out,,,,,But let's see the aftermath,,,,,,,

[jamesedwards]

What people do for attention,,Things that make you uhmmmmmmm,he surely is a cross dresser,and perhaps want to check the girls out,,,,,But let's see the aftermath,,,,,,,

Bammmmmmmmmmm I am glad you said it, I didn't have to say it cause motha fuckas would of been down my throat! Thank you, for your reply. He is confused as fuck! This Catliyn Jenner shit is causing some shit!!!

[Lester316]

The question in any debate like this I suppose is when is the change mentally and psychically from identifying as male or female and actually living as a different gender than which you were genetically born. At this point the person the arguments revolve around may identify as female but there has been no actual start to the psychical transition beyond changing clothes (I'm including a wig in there). Now I respect everyone's rights when it comes to not being made to feel like an outsider but if Lila identified as a gay male until 13 and is now 17 there have been at least 4 years to change their hairstyle (ie: grow it a bit) and whilst publicly Lila didn't come out as transgender until the age of 17 that wouldn't be an issue as plenty of guys have longer hair anyhow (clearly Lila wants to have longer hair or wouldn't wear the wig).

There is a gender neutral changing area which Lila can use, they might not like that and feel it impacts upon their rights/feelings but in all fairness why should the rights and feelings of all of the female students come second? Surely they have a right not to be forced to share changing areas with someone who is psychically 100% male.

It may not be fair to everyone but in general I'm a believer that in situations that will never be fair to all involved democracy should apply. To quote Star Trek 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of they few'. We've seen similar stories pop up with regards to gyms and such places I don't want anyone to be/or feel discriminated against but sometimes you just can't find a solution that works for everyone so whatever is the best of the bunch has to be used (ie: a third changing area).

Also I should add what we have here is a school. We are all aware that despite sex ed, biology and other classes that children/teenagers develop sexual maturity and understanding at varying ages they don't all reach the same point in their heads at the same time; therefore forcing students to share facilities with someone who is in every sense genetically sexually different to them is not fair.

I respect Lila for coming out at a young age, it's very brave, but if you are that brave then be brave enough to accept that while it isn't fair you have to make the best of the situation and use the option provided. Coming out at 17 is very mature thing to do but not everyone will be as mature emotionally as that and they shouldn't be forced into something they (and their parents) find uncomfortable whilst they are still at school.

[broncofan]

Are we talking about whether the individual in this case identifies as transsexual or whether in general transsexuals should be able to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with? These are two separate issues and obviously the first post in this thread is an incoherent screed against the rights of transgender women generally with some homophobia thrown in.

I have no idea whether the individual in question is sincere in her transition but I imagine she is and doesn't have an ulterior motive. Personally I think if someone is sincere in their transition and wants to identify as a female, then people should be accepting of that and that includes use of restrooms matching their gender identity. Typically public restrooms are not locked, and so if someone is a sex offender, it is not the permission to use the bathroom that gives them access. In women's restrooms there are stalls and so if someone is uncomfortable with a transgender woman being in the restroom they are allowed to control their privacy by using stalls.

Anyhow, surprising to me that on a forum for admirers of transsexuals there are so many people who could care less how they are treated.

[jamesedwards]

That was profoundly said!!!!!

Only thing I disagree with is the maturity. the females of the school aren't mature and neither is the TG. We know in school you can't have boys in the girls looker room and vice versa. Disrupting normal activities at school because of your personal is not good. Really to me he is a CD, he's confusing and confusing shit at the school. If parents boycott that school and say their child is not going there it will be a wrap for the TG/CD. Listen those children know what's going on better than some grown folk, they know what a gay person is, I don't know why certain TG's feel they need to educate people. There are people that don't want to hear it or you coming in front of them trying to explain. You want to be a woman, plain and simple, whatever emotional rollercoasters you have that's on you, people don't need to know that, for real.


The question in any debate like this I suppose is when is the change mentally and psychically from identifying as male or female and actually living as a different gender than which you were genetically born. At this point the person the arguments revolve around may identify as female but there has been no actual start to the psychical transition beyond changing clothes (I'm including a wig in there). Now I respect everyone's rights when it comes to not being made to feel like an outsider but if Lila identified as a gay male until 13 and is now 17 there have been at least 4 years to change their hairstyle (ie: grow it a bit) and whilst publicly Lila didn't come out as transgender until the age of 17 that wouldn't be an issue as plenty of guys have longer hair anyhow (clearly Lila wants to have longer hair or wouldn't wear the wig).

There is a gender neutral changing area which Lila can use, they might not like that and feel it impacts upon their rights/feelings but in all fairness why should the rights and feelings of all of the female students come second? Surely they have a right not to be forced to share changing areas with someone who is psychically 100% male.

It may not be fair to everyone but in general I'm a believer that in situations that will never be fair to all involved democracy should apply. To quote Star Trek 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of they few'. We've seen similar stories pop up with regards to gyms and such places I don't want anyone to be/or feel discriminated against but sometimes you just can't find a solution that works for everyone so whatever is the best of the bunch has to be used (ie: a third changing area).

Also I should add what we have here is a school. We are all aware that despite sex ed, biology and other classes that children/teenagers develop sexual maturity and understanding at varying ages they don't all reach the same point in their heads at the same time; therefore forcing students to share facilities with someone who is in every sense genetically sexually different to them is not fair.

I respect Lila for coming out at a young age, it's very brave, but if you are that brave then be brave enough to accept that while it isn't fair you have to make the best of the situation and use the option provided. Coming out at 17 is very mature thing to do but not everyone will be as mature emotionally as that and they shouldn't be forced into something they (and their parents) find uncomfortable whilst they are still at school.

[jamesedwards]

No, we are not trying to identify what the person identifies as, that's been established, suppose to be transgender!

The subject is violating female's locker room because technically the TG is a male with just a wig on and a dress and still have balls and a cock, and the females don't feel comfy with this. The facility already took care of this problem with giving the TG a neutral locker, so why do the TG feel the need to go into the girls locker room? The TG is going to lose, because if the adults didn't see it as a problem at first they wouldn't have given the TG a neutral place they would of told the TG go ahead into the girls locker room. The parents are going to fight back, straight people are getting tired of this shit, trust me.

Homophobia? Hmmm that word is ignorant, here's why, it's a play on words and straight people's psyche. If it means people are scared of homosexuals that is dumb! People aren't scared of homosexuals, they don't like their life style, so what word can we use for that? Homophobia was created to make the straight people feel sorry for homosexuals and to compromise their position, that's it.

You're not looking at both sides of the coin and how society really is. People don't have to accept shit! You're telling me a young teen female has to accept a male in the locker room with them or bathroom? This is why people are getting furious it's causes mad confusion! This shit is trinkling down to the children and it's not right! This is what was said by straight people before, they fear for the children and now it's come to past! Children should not be forced into this shit, and they should feel comfy while at school. they have to deal with drugs, male predators, sex, violence, correct education curriculum, food, health, teen pregnancy, suicide, racism, and now this shit? It's to much for a child to take. I like when a TG transitions, But I am also a fucking realist, you can't force young girls into this shit it could fuck them up mentally. They shouldn't have to deal with this shit they should be learning.

We are not talking about sex offenders dude! We are talking about a technically boy going into a female's locker room! Those young females shouldn't be put under that type of pressure! THEY HAVE RIGHTS ALSO! When you start fucking with the children then I have a fucking problem! I haven't seen not one TG come out and say this is wrong to do on female girls!

You will see the fathers in full force, so you better get ready.
http://img1.imagehousing.com/73/ce81de74e0b1959e5956aee6d8781716.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/image/1244682)


Are we talking about whether the individual in this case identifies as transsexual or whether in general transsexuals should be able to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with? These are two separate issues and obviously the first post in this thread is an incoherent screed against the rights of transgender women generally with some homophobia thrown in.

I have no idea whether the individual in question is sincere in her transition but I imagine she is and doesn't have an ulterior motive. Personally I think if someone is sincere in their transition and wants to identify as a female, then people should be accepting of that and that includes use of restrooms matching their gender identity. Typically public restrooms are not locked, and so if someone is a sex offender, it is not the permission to use the bathroom that gives them access. In women's restrooms there are stalls and so if someone is uncomfortable with a transgender woman being in the restroom they are allowed to control their privacy by using stalls.

Anyhow, surprising to me that on a forum for admirers of transsexuals there are so many people who could care less how they are treated.

[Lester316]

On a side note I think the school should be more concerned about spelling and grammar...

Did you see that guy's sign he totally doesn't get how to use an apostrophe; I bet he went there. Too much time arguing about changing facilities and not enough spent on the differences between plurals and the possessive. I'm outraged!!!!

[broncofan]

I respect reasonable disagreement on the subject (for that see Lester's post). I don't care for the garbled self-hatred espoused by James or the insinuation that this is just an attention seeking pervert and not someone who wants to transition...there is room for disagreement about how we defend competing interests but your posts are too moronic to really argue with James. Your bigotry towards homosexuals and transgender individuals and your generally irrational views only show what decent people have to contend with.

The term homophobia was not invented to make people feel sorry for gay men and women but because they have historically been subject to abuse for their sexual orientation. You could not be a bigger fool if you tried.

[jamesedwards]

On a side note I think the school should be more concerned about spelling and grammar...

Did you see that guy's sign he totally doesn't get how to use an apostrophe; I bet he went there. Too much time arguing about changing facilities and not enough spent on the differences between plurals and the possessive. I'm outraged!!!!

:dead: I seen that, and he made a mistake also with the word "Right's" But the apostrophe should of went where "Girl's Rights" <-------like that, he would of had the proper sign. But see that's why the children need their education not be worried about some person invading their school privacy.

[jamesedwards]

I respect reasonable disagreement on the subject (for that see Lester's post). I don't care for the garbled self-hatred espoused by James or the insinuation that this is just an attention seeking pervert and not someone who wants to transition...there is room for disagreement about how we defend competing interests but your posts are too moronic to really argue with James. Your bigotry towards homosexuals and transgender individuals and your generally irrational views only show what decent people have to contend with.

The term homophobia was not invented to make people feel sorry for gay men and women but because they have historically been subject to abuse for their sexual orientation. You could not be a bigger fool if you tried.

Says you! If a person don't like homosexuals they are out right called homophobic, when that shit is far from the truth, they don't like the dam lifestyle, people have their rights. I am a person that is for people's rights, <------- I put the apostrophe in the right place (Lester) :dead:.
Who are you calling a bigot, and has irrational views?

No matter my personal likes for TGirls I am down for truth, and the truth is, the TG was given his own locker, he wants to now violate the girls and that shit is not right, so are you telling me its ok for him to violate their space? Gotta see this one!

[broncofan]

:dead: I seen that, and he made a mistake also with the word "Right's" But the apostrophe should of went where "Girl's Rights" <-------like that, he would of had the proper sign. But see that's why the children need their education not be worried about some person invading their school privacy.
Then I presume you're aware of the fact that you should have used the word "have" instead of "of"?:)

[broncofan]

Says you! If a person don't like homosexuals they are out right called homophobic, when that shit is far from the truth, they don't like the dam lifestyle, people have their rights. I am a person that is for people's rights, <------- I
Who are you calling a bigot, and has irrational views?

Yes, if a person doesn't like homosexuals they are called homophobic. Well done. It's not a lifestyle or a choice but a sexual orientation that is not very malleable. You deny that homosexuals have historically been mistreated? Pick up a history book. Is being burned alive not mistreatment? Is having your sexual orientation outlawed not mistreatment? Is being thrown off of rooftops not mistreatment? I am not saying that denying the use of a restroom to this transgender girl equates to that but you seem to deny the existence of any homophobia in the world or in your posts which are rife with it. You also engage in it with your hints that gay men and women are trying to recruit children or want special privileges by asking for equal rights. The slogan gay lifestyle really has no meaning at all and is a propaganda phrase.

As for your question about whether I support people violating other's space....no I'm not for anyone violating anyone else's space. But I think transgender women should be able to use the restrooms of the gender they identify with. I realize in a school it's more difficult because we have girls who are still developing and who will be uncomfortable. I think there's an argument to be made that the sooner they learn to tolerate other people's differences the better.

[dreamon]

It really confuses me that people could actually think that someone who looks like a woman would be more distracting in a women's room than a men's room.

Most of the people who oppose transgender rights seem to spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about where people take shits. It's kinda creepy to me.

[jamesedwards]

Then I presume you're aware of the fact that you should have used the word "have" instead of "of"?:)

Of course I am aware, I like to talk ghetto mixed with a lil slang, I say ain't instead of "isn't" LOL trust me I know how to write a simple sentence, and know how to carry grammar well if I wanted to. I talk all types of shit here, this ain't school ya know? LOL

[jamesedwards]

You and your strawman arguments are the worse, where did I ever say that I didn't know ever homosexuals were mistreated? Where did I say that? Hell there are African descent people being mistreated, how about killed? WTF you bring that up for, that's not the convo!

I deny the word! Not the dam mistreatment of homosexuals, wtf!

Phobia means scared, are you telling me, straight people are scared of homosexuals?

Here's the defintion:
Homophobia
noun
1.
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.

Unreasoning is subjective!

Yall making up all types of dam excuses but dealing with the topic at hand, dam young girls were violated! You mean to tell me they don't have no fucking rights? Are you telling me this? You don't give a shit about the young girls? Is this the fuck what you're telling me? You're telling me the CD has the right to go into a girls locker room when one was given to him?


Yes, if a person doesn't like homosexuals they are called homophobic. Well done. It's not a lifestyle or a choice but a sexual orientation that is not very malleable. You deny that homosexuals have historically been mistreated? Pick up a history book. Is being burned alive not mistreatment? Is having your sexual orientation outlawed not mistreatment? Is being thrown off of rooftops not mistreatment? I am not saying that denying the use of a restroom to this transgender girl equates to that but you seem to deny the existence of any homophobia in the world or in your posts which are rife with it. You also engage in it with your hints that gay men and women are trying to recruit children or want special privileges by asking for equal rights. The slogan gay lifestyle really has no meaning at all and is a propaganda phrase.

As for your question about whether I support people violating other's space....no I'm not for anyone violating anyone else's space. But I think transgender women should be able to use the restrooms of the gender they identify with. I realize in a school it's more difficult because we have girls who are still developing and who will be uncomfortable. I think there's an argument to be made that the sooner they learn to tolerate other people's differences the better.

[jamesedwards]

Not one got dam gay, lesbian, homosexual, TGirl, etc said this was wrong, not fucking one!......................what is this world coming to!

Experience dealing with a gay dude.
So I am doing my work, and this gay dude walks in, he starts to tell me about him and his gay lover. Now what in the fuck was dude thinking about coming to me talking about his gay shit? This turns into a problem. I am not there to please him or to listen to his gay shit and why would this idiot think he could tell me? because they think every fucking body accepts their shit and lifestyle, when in fact they don't. So I put him in check real quick with a manager.
I told him in front of the manager, "Don't ever, never never ever never, tell me about your gay guy and what you do, I am not interested, straight guys are not interested in gay men shit, just like gay men don't like women! You don't have the right to come tell anyone about your gay lifestyle as though everyone likes it. yada I blasted his ass, and guess what? Management agreed, he ain't say shit else about his gay lover to no one, people were glad, but afraid of the black lash. I am like wtf, put them in their place they don't have the right to invade on us hell no. That's what the fuck they do. They will violate the very chance they get I have seen it at work they fucking can't contain themselves.

Now back to the subject!

[broncofan]

You said the word homophobia was invented to make people feel sorry for gay men and women. That presumes that it was not coined to describe actual persecution. When I said it was, you balked, which is why I spoke of their historical mistreament, which dates back hundreds of years. So it is perfectly germane to the subject.

I also see your dishonest attempt to deconstruct the word homophobic. The definition you cited said that homophobia can be fear of OR antipathy towards homosexuals. Do you mind telling me what antipathy means? It means a deep-seated feeling of dislike, which you clearly display. This makes your statement that a person can dislike homosexuals and not be homophobic an oxymoron, spoken by a moron.

The next thing you're going to do is post a definition of the word phobia, which means fear, and claim this somehow supports your argument. Words often have meanings that are different from their constituent parts. This is English, which you speak very poorly by the way.

What is unreasoning? It's any hatred, such as the kind you engage in, that can't be explained in clear, deductive terms. Sound familiar?

I saw that you didn't like my post critiquing your post where you have the audacity to attack someone's use of an apostrophe. Your posts are a minefield of red ink waiting to explode. Nice little anecdote you included by the way. I have no idea what sort of people are reading your posts, but at least the people giving your posts the thumbs down know what an ignoramus it takes to write something like that and think it reflects well on you.

[broncofan]

trust me I know how to write a simple sentence,
Trust me. You should start doing it.

[jamesedwards]

And it was, invented like I said, and........ It is used whenever a straight person say they don't agree with gay lifestyles! It was invented for that fact and others.

ANTIPATHY
noun, plural antipathies.
1.
a natural, basic, or habitual repugnance; aversion.
2.
an instinctive contrariety or opposition in feeling.
3.
an object of natural aversion or habitual dislike.

No I am not going to post the def. of phobia, who told you that? Now you read minds? GTFO!

Now the dislike part, I dislike people when they impose their bullshit on others who have rights. Now show me where I said I hate gays etc, show me.
I'm not homophobic, and I am not scared of them. That's fucking clear! You said I speak English poorly? Ummmm when have you heard me speak by the way? That's the second misconception of your thoughts trying to validate your pompous bullshit! Don't try to figure me out stay in your own lane! Its funny that I so called speak poorly but your ass has answered to my beckoning call! smh

I don't give a flying fuck what you do to my post, if you fire at me I fire back motha fucka! and for the most part me and someone else were joking so stop the bullshit, you're trying to induce red herrings in this thread, stay on topic motha fucka! How about that!

Are you fucking telling me it was right the girls get violated by this guy posing as a girl to be in their fucking locker room? See your ass didn't answer that question, stop buck dancing !


You said the word homophobia was invented to make people feel sorry for gay men and women. That presumes that it was not coined to describe actual persecution. When I said it was, you balked, which is why I spoke of their historical mistreament, which dates back hundreds of years. So it is perfectly germane to the subject.

I also see your dishonest attempt to deconstruct the word homophobic. The definition you cited said that homophobia can be fear of OR antipathy towards homosexuals. Do you mind telling me what antipathy means? It means a deep-seated feeling of dislike, which you clearly display. This makes your statement that a person can dislike homosexuals and not be homophobic an oxymoron, spoken by a moron.

The next thing you're going to do is post a definition of the word phobia, which means fear, and claim this somehow supports your argument. Words often have meanings that are different from their constituent parts. This is English, which you speak very poorly by the way.

What is unreasoning? It's any hatred, such as the kind you engage in, that can't be explained in clear, deductive terms. Sound familiar?

I saw that you didn't like my post critiquing your post where you have the audacity to attack someone's use of an apostrophe. Your posts are a minefield of red ink waiting to explode. Nice little anecdote you included by the way. I have no idea what sort of people are reading your posts, but at least the people giving your posts the thumbs down know what an ignoramus it takes to write something like that and think it reflects well on you.

[broncofan]

Hey shmo. I've answered the question several times in this thread. I said I don't think the use of a female restroom by a mtf transsexual is a violation. I've even stated my opinion as to this case, which is that I doubt she is insincere in her desire to transition. I think that if she used the restroom it would not violate the privacy rights of other girls since restrooms are partitioned into stalls.

And yes, your English is terrible. You say I haven't heard you speak, but typically people don't speak as clearly as they write. I hope for your sake that's not true.:)

[Laphroaig]

Of course I am aware, I like to talk ghetto mixed with a lil slang, I say ain't instead of "isn't" LOL trust me I know how to write a simple sentence, and know how to carry grammar well if I wanted to. I talk all types of shit here, this ain't school ya know? LOL

That part we can all agree with. :dead-1:

[Lester316]

It really confuses me that people could actually think that someone who looks like a woman would be more distracting in a women's room than a men's room.

Most of the people who oppose transgender rights seem to spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about where people take shits. It's kinda creepy to me.

This kind of misses the point in my opinion it's a locker room a place where you change clothing in front of other people and possibly take a shower - this requires nudity last I checked and it is exactly at that point where Lila would look 100% male as physically she still is. It's all a matter of what is appropriate for the venue involved. We all accept that it is clear transgender people are born into the wrong bodies but until they transition those bodies stay as they genetically started out - Lila or any TS girl has every right to how she feels but until she has changed how she looks it is not fair on everyone else using that facility.

Imagine a different scenario without transgender people involved. At a gay men's bathhouse/sauna a woman walks in and start to strip off in the changing area and when challenged she says 'but I like cock too I won't bother anyone' - is this acceptable? These men have chosen to go to a place designed to be private and suitable for their gender and sexual identity. Or make it even simpler at a gym a woman goes into the male locker room and starts stripping off - now I'm sure plenty of straight guys would joke 'fine by me' or whatever but some of the men using that gym may be gay, others may feel uncomfortable around a naked woman they have never met.

I know in Lila's case (and for other TS girls) they identify as female and want to go where they feel comfortable - genetics let them down and that isn't fair after all; it also isn't fair to all the girls that use that locker room to enforce sharing with someone who is genetically male. There is no perfect solution in this case, why should a minority's feelings take precedent over the majority's or vice-versa; of course no one should be forced into an unfair situation but when you can't find a way to make everyone 100% happy you do the best you can. Extra facilities are available and should be used.

[Laphroaig]

No I am not going to post the def. of phobia, who told you that? Now you read minds? GTFO!



Too late, you already did. Please try to keep up, you're making this far too easy...:dead-1:




Phobia means scared, are you telling me, straight people are scared of homosexuals?

Here's the defintion:
Homophobia
noun
1.
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.

[jamesedwards]

Hey shmo. I've answered the question several times in this thread. I said I don't think the use of a female restroom by a mtf transsexual is a violation. I've even stated my opinion as to this case, which is that I doubt she is insincere in her desire to transition. I think that if she used the restroom it would not violate the privacy rights of other girls since restrooms are partitioned into stalls.

And yes, your English is terrible. You say I haven't heard you speak, but typically people don't speak as clearly as they write. I hope for your sake that's not true.:)

Dude, I can write very well, I am here to have fun most the time, and when I type out of term, its because I am having fun. <-------You see how well constructed that sentence is?

Stop the bullshit, stay on topic, what you don't like that I used the word bullshit?

[jamesedwards]

Too late, you already did. Please try to keep up, you're making this far too easy...:dead-1:

Yeah I already did but did you read his post? He said I am going put up the definition, if I already did why in the fuck would I put it up again?

[jamesedwards]

Some of you motha fuckas are to worried if I used the def. of Phobia, and how I type.

TALK ABOUT THE FUCKING GIRLS AND THEIR RIGHTS AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT I DO, ITS NOT IMPORTANT! EVERY TIME I ASK ABOUT THE GIRL'S RIGHTS SOME OF YOU MOTHA FUCKAS PUT RED HERRINGS INTO THE DAM QUESTIONS! IS THE GIRLS BEING VIOLATED, I SAY YES, BOYS HAVE NO BUSINESS IN A MIDDLE SCHOOL OR HIGH SCHOOL LOCKER ROOM WITH GIRLS! NOW LETS TALK ABOUT THAT!

[jamesedwards]

Lester that was fucking profoundly said!!!! thank you!!!!
This is the violation, the school gave Lila a way out, meaning they gave a neutral locker room, Lila then goes into the girl's locker room because Lila didn't feel comfy in a place where Lila was alone? Notice, Lila is all by herself/himself with no other people around, now I have to ask, why in the FUCK did Lila think Lila could and should go into the girl's locker room? To start some shit! Plain and simple! The school accommodated Lila, went our their way to give Lila her/his space and Lila chose to violate the girls!

A boy, has no dam right in a girls locker room and vice versa, now who is going to be the rabbit's ass to say I am wrong? Saying shit like "I'm not going to hurt them" what the fuck, they don't know that? This is the confusing this shit starts, but me I am not confused, Lila shouldn't be in the girls locker room! Lila, is suppose to be Lila, get the operation, have a pussy and tits and look like a female! If you don't use the neutral locker room!

You mean to tell me we can't protect our girls from things that are not right? This shouldn't even be an argument! Some of you have no answers, motha fuckas worried about how I write, or type. If I was to talk on a corporate level, these same motha fuckas wouldn't understand shit I was saying.

Those girls need their privacy! Period, and boys shouldn't be in it. My main post on this shit is about RIGHTS, then gender because its the subject after rights. Lila has violated the school's principles on the matter because Lila is trying to prove a fucking point.




This kind of misses the point in my opinion it's a locker room a place where you change clothing in front of other people and possibly take a shower - this requires nudity last I checked and it is exactly at that point where Lila would look 100% male as physically she still is. It's all a matter of what is appropriate for the venue involved. We all accept that it is clear transgender people are born into the wrong bodies but until they transition those bodies stay as they genetically started out - Lila or any TS girl has every right to how she feels but until she has changed how she looks it is not fair on everyone else using that facility.

Imagine a different scenario without transgender people involved. At a gay men's bathhouse/sauna a woman walks in and start to strip off in the changing area and when challenged she says 'but I like cock too I won't bother anyone' - is this acceptable? These men have chosen to go to a place designed to be private and suitable for their gender and sexual identity. Or make it even simpler at a gym a woman goes into the male locker room and starts stripping off - now I'm sure plenty of straight guys would joke 'fine by me' or whatever but some of the men using that gym may be gay, others may feel uncomfortable around a naked woman they have never met.

I know in Lila's case (and for other TS girls) they identify as female and want to go where they feel comfortable - genetics let them down and that isn't fair after all; it also isn't fair to all the girls that use that locker room to enforce sharing with someone who is genetically male. There is no perfect solution in this case, why should a minority's feelings take precedent over the majority's or vice-versa; of course no one should be forced into an unfair situation but when you can't find a way to make everyone 100% happy you do the best you can. Extra facilities are available and should be used.

[broncofan]

Dude, I can write very well, I am here to have fun most the time, and when I type out of term, its because I am having fun. <-------You see how well constructed that sentence is?

Stop the bullshit, stay on topic, what you don't like that I used the word bullshit?
If you keep saying things that are objectionable, then how can anyone stay on topic? I noticed that you have such kind words for Lester, as though you are trying to bring him onto your side. But I wonder whether he sees your various posts as a validation of his beliefs. What he is saying is very different from what you are saying in scope and content.

I will point out one misconception a lot of people have about democratic processes. A democracy does not protect people from the tyranny of the majority. This is one of the reasons we have guaranteed rights in our constitution and why we have a judiciary that scrutinizes democratically passed laws. Different countries have set up different institutions, but not everything is held to a referendum or decided based on the number of people claiming grievances.

A law that requires people to use the bathroom of their biological sex would probably not be overturned and no court has found this to be a fundamental right of transgender individuals. I will point out though that if same sex marriage were held to a referendum in this country it might not pass, but our Supreme Court has now said that it cannot be outlawed. The reason I feel the way I do is that I think it's dangerous for people to claim they should be able to exclude others because they are uncomfortable with their presence. If they could prove that the person was insincere or really trying to get access to the restroom for their own gratification and posed a threat to them, my view would change.

Here's a hypothetical. If heterosexual men, who far outnumber gay men, were to decide that they feel uncomfortable sharing a restroom with men who might find them sexually attractive, should their numerosity dictate the outcome?

[lifeisfiction]

This thread has been popcorn good. Still, everyone realizes we are talking about teenage girls and boys. The age where boys and girls are still learning about their bodies and all that stuff. I remember in High School a lot guys in the locker room felt uncomfortable about being naked in front of another male. Wasn't like college where almost everyone walked around naked.

I think in this situation people should remember these are kids we are talking about not adults.

[fred41]

People are going to be split on these type of issues, which is why we come up with laws. The state of California already has a law allowing transgender students to pick their locker rooms and bathrooms according to whatever sex they identify with. States such as Nevada and Texas have put forth bills to allow pupils to use locker rooms only according to biological sex. At some point in time, this will probably get to the Supreme Court and that will settle it.

I think changes are slowly coming across this nation of ours with each new generation of people. This is actually a pretty good example of that. Even though there is a protest...this is a very small, rural area and it seems that, for the most part, it's all still pretty civil...and Lila even has a group of supporters.

For people that think Lila is full of shit, and that maybe she just wants to get her jollies off from changing in a female locker room, try googling her name in the image section. Sure, she doesn't wear the best of wigs and she doesn't have the chic urban no how of expertly applying make-up, but if any of you think this is a boy trying to fool his way in - then I suggest you try gallivanting around a rural area wearing a wig, makeup, a dress and weighing what looks like 110 lbs soaking wet...all day long, every day... I dare you.
None of us know her personally, but it seems that of the folks in the school district who do, in fact, know her personally...no one is really arguing that Lila believes she is a woman. I don't think it's a head fake. Hell, even if Lila was an insane, delusional homosexual who just likes wearing dresses and voguing to Madonna songs, there is still obviously no threat to the precious girls made of sugar and spice. I'm sure they have a greater chance of their closeted lesbian locker mates ogling them than Lila.

The real problem that I have with some of the comments that were used by folks in the various news articles I have now read on this, is that eventually a person just absolutely has to use their Christianity as a reason of protest. My belief is that if you have a problem with Lila changing with biological girls on scientific or personal held moral or ethical beliefs...fine. But if you're going to bring Christ into every argument, then I suggest you put your kids in parochial schools, which is probably what Jesus would suggest...

...which is just another way for me to segueway into the fact that I am happy that they locked that ignorant, self centered cunt clerk in Kentucky, Kim Davis, the fuck up for refusing to follow the law she swore to uphold. Ignorant bitch.

[broncofan]

http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm

I thought this was interesting. I said I thought same sex marriage might not carry majority support if people in the U.S. voted on it. However, it appears that the majority of people do actually support it. If you take a look at the Pew data, it actually has polling data dating back to 1996, so you can see what the sea change has been. Would have been quite bold if our Supreme Court had decided that banning gay marriage was unconstitutional back when only 27% of people supported it. Will be interesting to see if the next twenty years brings about the same kinds of cultural changes.

And I agree, religion can be a guide to one's own behavior but shouldn't give someone a right to obstruct other people's rights. And as the legislation Fred has referred...where would you rather live, California or Texas:)?

[Lester316]

I've looked back over the last few posts and seeing as I'm not here specifically to argue or agree with anyone particular I'll make my stance on the issue clear; personally I think I am simply advocating common sense but some folks may disagree. I should preface my thoughts by pointing out I am in the UK - I find the U.S. legal system as mentioned by others to be overly complicated and fractured in it's nature which is a hindrance to finding solutions in cases like this.

I'll start by saying as far as I am able to find this constitutes current UK guidelines for bathroom/changing/toilet facilities in schools so maybe provides context for my opinion and the difference over here to the U.S.: 'Provide safe toilet arrangements for the child, for instance use of a staff facility, a disabled toilet labeled unisex etc.'. That might sound overly simply but reality is transgender students in UK schools that have come out as such may number anything from barely a few to zero in most UK schools, no local authority is going to start purpose building specific facilities until there is a genuine need.

Now I've read people's thoughts on things such as Lila is much less likely to be a 'threat' sexually to girls in the locker room than their lesbian classmates, this is one of the points which is in itself confused as the debate is not one of sexual identity (ie: who you are attracted to) it is one of gender identity. I know there is some cross over involved but that is the point we should start from.

The place is a school; it is for children. Whether they be male, female or if they were genetically born as one but identify as the other. Locker rooms are areas for changing clothes, having showers and using the toilet - it would be a financial impossibility for any normal school to provide individual personal areas for each child so using common sense we segregate by using nature as a guide. Of course transgender students don't fit that system but they want to (rightly so it is their right to be who they are not what genetics forced them to be) - the point here of course goes back to the fact it's a school. Unless there are procedures and laws I am unaware of transgender students cannot fully transition legally until they are an adult therefore a genetic male who identifies as female (or vice-versa) will not be physically how they want to be until after they leave school.

Providing an alternative locker room facility is the only sensible solution to this issue. It may not be ideal in the eyes of the transgender student but it is the reality. Forcing other students to share with someone who is genetically a different gender to them is not fair (or indeed suitable); even if the majority were understanding and accepting, some may not be and thinking logically the third locker room protects both those students and the transgender student from actions/accusations that could come from either party.

Now sexual feelings, who is attracted to whom and all sorts has been mentioned before; the reality is there are all sorts of combinations out there. Students could be straight male, straight female, gay male, lesbian, they could be a male to female transgender student who finds boys attractive but they could also identify as female and lesbian - I could go on for ages. It would be ludicrous to segregate changing areas that way so we stick with what is simply and logistically doable.

Ultimately there has to be give and take on all sides; sometimes individuals have to settle for less than an equal balance in that as practicality is just as much as an issue as observing everyone's rights is. Of course schools could just knock the walls down in between the locker rooms and create one big multi-gender area but the reality is that wouldn't be fair or practical either and imagine the stink parents would kick up about that.

As stated before I respect Lila's bravery in coming out as transgender at a young age (as I do everyone else who comes out in any way at any age) but she has a locker room she can use and honestly it just isn't fair or practical to make female students share with her so it doesn't hurt her feelings. If we allocated locker rooms/changing areas/ toilets based on the feelings system and not a practical (and as fair as we can make it) system then every school might need a personal space for every pupil.

[DeezNuts515]

Dude, I can write very well, I am here to have fun most the time, and when I type out of term, its because I am having fun. <-------You see how well constructed that sentence is?



Actually, that's a poorly constructed run-on sentence.

[jamesedwards]

I agree with some of what you said. Could you point me to the person/s who mentioned Christ? I didn't know someone used Christ as an excuse.
The clerk broke the law oh well, she gotta face the consequences on her part.

Hence, you support the clerk being locked up for what she did, now think about this. Lila violated the rights of the girls, Lila was given a place to dress then Lila broke the rules of the school and went into the girl's locker room and sent them into a shocking frenzy. So are you saying Lila is wrong or right here? I am going to keep it simple, I am saying Lila is wrong!




The real problem that I have with some of the comments that were used by folks in the various news articles I have now read on this, is that eventually a person just absolutely has to use their Christianity as a reason of protest. My belief is that if you have a problem with Lila changing with biological girls on scientific or personal held moral or ethical beliefs...fine. But if you're going to bring Christ into every argument, then I suggest you put your kids in parochial schools, which is probably what Jesus would suggest...

...which is just another way for me to segueway into the fact that I am happy that they locked that ignorant, self centered cunt clerk in Kentucky, Kim Davis, the fuck up for refusing to follow the law she swore to uphold. Ignorant bitch.

[jamesedwards]

Actually, that's a poorly constructed run-on sentence.

Really how so? Again what does that have to do with the thread? Here we go again! Are you worried more about my typing or about the girls being violated?
Do you have typephobia?

[jamesedwards]

Fucking brilliant!!! Now that's how you post looking at all the facts! This is exactly what I was saying. Lila was catered to, accommodated, and Lila took it upon Lila's self to basically disrespect these girls. These are young girls they are not full grown women! People don't understand the trauma this could put them through.

Can you imagine some young female goes to her locker and Lila is standing there ass naked, she looks in shock and runs! That could scare her for life, that one little incident. It seems like to me a lot of people don't give a shit about the girls rights, or their emotional being and not looking at the other things they have to deal with along the way.

1. These girls have to worry about if someone is going to shoot up the school and weapons.
2. Drugs!
3. Rape!
4. Bullying!
5. health
6. getting the right education.
7. Now Lila.

All this shit these girls have to deal with and now its TG's added on to the list. When in the fuck will the girls get justice?

When are we going to protect the girls, they didn't ask for this shit. You walk out of school because of bad weather, you walk out of school if you're sick, etc, not some shit like this. Parents need to keep their children out as long as they can and fight the fuck back, harder than ever!
These are not grown ass women folk these are young innocent girls!



I've looked back over the last few posts and seeing as I'm not here specifically to argue or agree with anyone particular I'll make my stance on the issue clear; personally I think I am simply advocating common sense but some folks may disagree. I should preface my thoughts by pointing out I am in the UK - I find the U.S. legal system as mentioned by others to be overly complicated and fractured in it's nature which is a hindrance to finding solutions in cases like this.

I'll start by saying as far as I am able to find this constitutes current UK guidelines for bathroom/changing/toilet facilities in schools so maybe provides context for my opinion and the difference over here to the U.S.: 'Provide safe toilet arrangements for the child, for instance use of a staff facility, a disabled toilet labeled unisex etc.'. That might sound overly simply but reality is transgender students in UK schools that have come out as such may number anything from barely a few to zero in most UK schools, no local authority is going to start purpose building specific facilities until there is a genuine need.

Now I've read people's thoughts on things such as Lila is much less likely to be a 'threat' sexually to girls in the locker room than their lesbian classmates, this is one of the points which is in itself confused as the debate is not one of sexual identity (ie: who you are attracted to) it is one of gender identity. I know there is some cross over involved but that is the point we should start from.

The place is a school; it is for children. Whether they be male, female or if they were genetically born as one but identify as the other. Locker rooms are areas for changing clothes, having showers and using the toilet - it would be a financial impossibility for any normal school to provide individual personal areas for each child so using common sense we segregate by using nature as a guide. Of course transgender students don't fit that system but they want to (rightly so it is their right to be who they are not what genetics forced them to be) - the point here of course goes back to the fact it's a school. Unless there are procedures and laws I am unaware of transgender students cannot fully transition legally until they are an adult therefore a genetic male who identifies as female (or vice-versa) will not be physically how they want to be until after they leave school.

Providing an alternative locker room facility is the only sensible solution to this issue. It may not be ideal in the eyes of the transgender student but it is the reality. Forcing other students to share with someone who is genetically a different gender to them is not fair (or indeed suitable); even if the majority were understanding and accepting, some may not be and thinking logically the third locker room protects both those students and the transgender student from actions/accusations that could come from either party.


As stated before I respect Lila's bravery in coming out as transgender at a young age (as I do everyone else who comes out in any way at any age) but she has a locker room she can use and honestly it just isn't fair or practical to make female students share with her so it doesn't hurt her feelings. If we allocated locker rooms/changing areas/ toilets based on the feelings system and not a practical (and as fair as we can make it) system then every school might need a personal space for every pupil.

[jamesedwards]

The US period need to fix their laws, the blur of laws is ridiculous to the point no one knows shit! I mean wtf are they doing? The Govt.

[DeezNuts515]

Really how so? Again what does that have to do with the thread? Here we go again! Are you worried more about my typing or about the girls being violated?
Do you have typephobia?

It's relevant to this thread because it's a post contained within said thread. You were the one who felt the need to point out you can construct a sentence properly, but have failed to deliver. You have absolutely no grasp of punctuation. The fact you you began your retort with no punctuation after the word "really" underscores this. You were using that word as either an interrogative or an interjection, both of which require immediate punctuation.

It's not that serious. You have proven time and again you are an angry, blathering individual, who doesn't appear to have an IQ which reaches three digits. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a fully functioning brain.

[Laphroaig]

It's relevant to this thread because it's a post contained within said thread. You were the one who felt the need to point out you can construct a sentence properly, but have failed to deliver. You have absolutely no grasp of punctuation. The fact you you began your retort with no punctuation after the word "really" underscores this. You were using that word as either an interrogative or an interjection, both of which require immediate punctuation.

It's not that serious. You have proven time and again you are an angry, blathering individual, who doesn't appear to have an IQ which reaches three digits. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a fully functioning brain.

Agreed, what James fails to realise is that his poor language skills will always detract from the point he's trying to make. The irony is that he's admitted that his fake ghetto/slang persona is a "lifestyle choice" on his part. He also tends to increase the font size in his posts every so often, like an over excited, attention grabbing little kid.

James, you still haven't replied to my post in the other thread showing why homosexuality is natural and NOT a "lifestyle choice". Presumably you're trying to ignore it because yet again you've made a complete idiot of yourself... :dead-1:

As an example of how distracting your poor language is, you can't even swear correctly. The word is DAMN, this is what a DAM is you cretin.

874630

[jamesedwards]

You guys are nuts!!!
If my penmanship is poor how is it you can understand? Why is it again and again, and again you people are focus on how I write verses what the thread is about? Please explain that.
Stop the buck dancing and get on with the topic!


It's relevant to this thread because it's a post contained within said thread. You were the one who felt the need to point out you can construct a sentence properly, but have failed to deliver. You have absolutely no grasp of punctuation. The fact you you began your retort with no punctuation after the word "really" underscores this. You were using that word as either an interrogative or an interjection, both of which require immediate punctuation.

It's not that serious. You have proven time and again you are an angry, blathering individual, who doesn't appear to have an IQ which reaches three digits. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a fully functioning brain.

[broncofan]

You don't have the right to come tell anyone about your gay lifestyle as though everyone likes it. yada I blasted his ass,
This is probably my favorite James quote in the thread and believe it or not I didn't alter this Freudian gem. James's co-worker was telling him about the gay lifestyle and then yada yada yada James blasted his ass. Attaboy James. At first you're angry but before you know it you're blasting his ass and all is well. You see the gay lifestyle isn't that bad. Pina coladas with the little umbrellas, daytrips to the spa and .....what happened to keeping it to yourself?

[jamesedwards]

Here's your answer, a homosexual is not natural, there are no homosexual genes! There is imbalance genes that take place and need help from a professional doctor. Not everyone is a homosexual on that venue either, some do homosexual acts to make it, whether its the film industry, music etc. Some people are raped at a young age and are psychologically damaged. Then there are those that go to sex clubs get turned out and then perform the acts of homosexuality.
It is not natural because, two men can't have a child nor two women. Now if you're telling me they can you must prove it. Yet again you're not talking about the issue at hand, Lester to me is the only one who has presented a full case on this subject. Why would you bring another topic from some where else into another topic and keep talking about I can't write? Why would you have a poorly written man give you an answer if he writes poorly? I don't get it! There's your answer.



Agreed, what James fails to realise is that his poor language skills will always detract from the point he's trying to make. The irony is that he's admitted that his fake ghetto/slang persona is a "lifestyle choice" on his part. He also tends to increase the font size in his posts every so often, like an over excited, attention grabbing little kid.

James, you still haven't replied to my post in the other thread showing why homosexuality is natural and NOT a "lifestyle choice". Presumably you're trying to ignore it because yet again you've made a complete idiot of yourself... :dead-1:

As an example of how distracting your poor language is, you can't even swear correctly. The word is DAMN, this is what a DAM is you cretin.

874630

[jamesedwards]

Hence, how in the fuck do you say "YOU YOU" back to back like that in a sentence? Without putting a comma there for a PAUSE! And you want to talk about punctuation marks? Get the fuck outta here, you trolls are trying to go and fuck up the thread with your red herrings, everyone see it! I won't answer anything else if it's not pertaining to this subject.


It's relevant to this thread because it's a post contained within said thread. You were the one who felt the need to point out you can construct a sentence properly, but have failed to deliver. You have absolutely no grasp of punctuation. The fact you you began your retort with no punctuation after the word "really" underscores this. You were using that word as either an interrogative or an interjection, both of which require immediate punctuation.

It's not that serious. You have proven time and again you are an angry, blathering individual, who doesn't appear to have an IQ which reaches three digits. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a fully functioning brain.

[broncofan]

Here's your answer, a homosexual is not natural, there are no homosexual genes! There is imbalance genes that take place and need help from a professional doctor.
Thank you Gregor Mendel. Mendel as you know is famous for mating pea plants and proving the existence of imbalance genes. I remember his moving description of the pea plants trying to buttfuck each other. No seriously, what should the doctor prescribe for the homos James? A giant dose of pussy?

[Laphroaig]

Here's your answer, a homosexual is not natural, there are no homosexual genes! There is imbalance genes that take place and need help from a professional doctor. Not everyone is a homosexual on that venue either, some do homosexual acts to make it, whether its the film industry, music etc. Some people are raped at a young age and are psychologically damaged. Then there are those that go to sex clubs get turned out and then perform the acts of homosexuality.
It is not natural because, two men can't have a child nor two women. Now if you're telling me they can you must prove it. Yet again you're not talking about the issue at hand, Lester to me is the only one who has presented a full case on this subject. Why would you bring another topic from some where else into another topic and keep talking about I can't write? Why would you have a poorly written man give you an answer if he writes poorly? I don't get it! There's your answer.

And the fact that homosexual behaviour is observed in the animal kingdom, explain that? Do they make a "lifestyle choice"? Do animals have gay clubs as well? :dead:

You are correct, homosexual acts, by definition, cannot generate offspring. Thought for the day, that being the case, why hasn't homosexuality died out over generations? There are studies suggesting that homosexuality is an integral and essential part of society. I haven't looked at them in detail, so can't comment on their validity, but it's an interesting concept..

[Laphroaig]

Hence, how in the fuck do you say "YOU YOU" back to back like that in a sentence? Without putting a comma there for a PAUSE! And you want to talk about punctuation marks? Get the fuck outta here, you trolls are trying to go and fuck up the thread with your red herrings, everyone see it! I won't answer anything else if it's not pertaining to this subject.

That's just a typo, learn to spot the difference.

As for trolling, James, you're the biggest troll on this site. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the individual cases presented, your last couple of threads are deliberately looking to present transgenders in a bad light. What is your agenda?

[jamesedwards]

Oh it's a typo? Get the fuck outta here! :dead: Me a troll? Man listen I come here to have fun, and that's it, I don't go fucking with people etc. If the topic is the topic I know how to stay on TOPIC! You can't talk about the topic to save your fucking life! You keep on talking about me! It's not about me its about those girls!



That's just a typo, learn to spot the difference.

As for trolling, James, you're the biggest troll on this site. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the individual cases presented, your last couple of threads are deliberately looking to present transgenders in a bad light. What is your agenda?

[dreamon]

Not one got dam gay, lesbian, homosexual, TGirl, etc said this was wrong, not fucking one!......................what is this world coming to!

Experience dealing with a gay dude.
So I am doing my work, and this gay dude walks in, he starts to tell me about him and his gay lover. Now what in the fuck was dude thinking about coming to me talking about his gay shit? This turns into a problem. I am not there to please him or to listen to his gay shit and why would this idiot think he could tell me?

Oh but if he came in talking about the chicks he was fucking you would be equally offended right? Get over it. Some people like different shit. I am personally not into "fat chicks". But if someone starts talking about porking fat chicks I don't care. Stop being a bigot.

[dreamon]

It is actually mindboggling that on a board dedicated to transgender porn, we actually have to defend LGBT rights.

[dreamon]

this requires nudity last I checked and it is exactly at that point where Lila would look 100% male as physically she still is.

Yes nothing screams masculinity like the following naked ladies:

874639874640 874643

[dreamon]

For people that think Lila is full of shit, and that maybe she just wants to get her jollies off from changing in a female locker room, try googling her name in the image section. Sure, she doesn't wear the best of wigs and she doesn't have the chic urban no how of expertly applying make-up, but if any of you think this is a boy trying to fool his way in - then I suggest you try gallivanting around a rural area wearing a wig, makeup, a dress and weighing what looks like 110 lbs soaking wet...all day long, every day... I dare you.

I think some people forget what it is like to be a teenager. Just like every other high school male, I was a horny ass mother fucker. I did a ton of stuff to try to hook up with girls in high school- I got a fake ID, I went into debt to buy a nice car, I shopped at Abercrombie and Fitch, I said "hella". But I'll tell you what- I wouldn't have dressed up like a girl and worn a wig around for a million dollars. Being a varsity football player still didn't protect me from bullying and ridicule. Like I would have purposefully have subjected myself to even more teasing?

To anyone that thinks someone is so desperate to see a girl naked that they would dress like the opposite sex all the time, clearly you have forgotten what being a high school student is like and haven't heard of the internet. Where you can woman naked all the time. For free. Without subjecting yourself to bullying and ridicule.

[dreamon]

Here's your answer, a homosexual is not natural, there are no homosexual genes! There is imbalance genes that take place and need help from a professional doctor. Not everyone is a homosexual on that venue either, some do homosexual acts to make it, whether its the film industry, music etc. Some people are raped at a young age and are psychologically damaged. Then there are those that go to sex clubs get turned out and then perform the acts of homosexuality.
It is not natural because, two men can't have a child nor two women. Now if you're telling me they can you must prove it. Yet again you're not talking about the issue at hand, Lester to me is the only one who has presented a full case on this subject. Why would you bring another topic from some where else into another topic and keep about I can't write? Why would you have a poorly written man give you an answer if he writes poorly? I don't get it! There's your answer.

This is a really amusing post from someone who has clearly shown an affinity towards black women.

50 years ago, this exact same response would be applied to your affinity towards black women.

PS- this has to be a banworthy post right?

[dreamon]

It is not natural because, two men can't have a child nor two women.

What is your opinion on a marriage between a man and a woman who can't conceive together? Are you telling me that Monica Gellar and Chandler Bing had an unnatural marriage???

[dreamon]

Thank you Gregor Mendel. Mendel as you know is famous for mating pea plants and proving the existence of imbalance genes. I remember his moving description of the pea plants trying to buttfuck each other. No seriously, what should the doctor prescribe for the homos James? A giant dose of pussy?

Hey at least when Tom Arnold married Rosanne it was a heterosexual marriage.

[jamesedwards]

What is your opinion on a marriage between a man and a woman who can't conceive together? Are you telling me that Monica Gellar and Chandler Bing had an unnatural marriage???

Nope, there are a minimum of people who have dysfunctional problems having children, that's why its called "dysfunctional" because it is the direct opposite of natural functioning of having children. Nice try.

[jamesedwards]

@Brofan, no they can get clinical help, like hormone treatment, just like TGirls get theirs, maybe some testosterone here and there! A doctor can tell you!

[jamesedwards]

Hey at least when Tom Arnold married Rosanne it was a heterosexual marriage.

Can you show me one instants just one, where a man had sex with a man and had a child? Fuck it, anybody!

[dreamon]

Nope, there are a minimum of people who have dysfunctional problems having children, that's why its called "dysfunctional" because it is the direct opposite of natural functioning of having children. Nice try.

You never specified a specific number for it to be unnatural. You said that because two men can't conceive together, it is unnatural. Therefore, a man and a woman who can't conceive together is unnatural.

[dreamon]

Can you show me one instants just one, where a man had sex with a man and had a child? Fuck it, anybody!

Well, every time I've had sex with a biological woman, I've had a child. So this makes total sense.

[dreamon]

Can you show me one instants just one, where a man had sex with a man and had a child? Fuck it, anybody!

Can you show me an "instants" of a man having sex with a transgender woman and having a child? Clearly it should be illegal for men to marry transgender women.

[jamesedwards]

You never specified a specific number for it to be unnatural. You said that because two men can't conceive together, it is unnatural. Therefore, a man and a woman who can't conceive together is unnatural.

No when a woman and man can't it can be many reasons and some can get fixed and some can't, that's why it's called dysfunctional because they can't naturally do it. And some times they can get clinical help and then they can. Just because they can't doesn't mean its unnatural. Two men can't ever have a child so its not natural to have a child ever! Natural would be of nature, showing to produce and populate the earth is a natural process. Are you telling me what I am saying is false?

[jamesedwards]

Can you show me an "instants" of a man having sex with a transgender woman and having a child? Clearly it should be illegal for men to marry transgender women.

Of course not, look at what you said "Transgender" and a "man" will never be able to have a child, can you tell me why?

Illegal for a man to marry a TG? Why are you saying that?

[dreamon]

Of course not, look at what you said "Transgender" and a "man" will never be able to have a child, can you tell me why?

Illegal for a man to marry a TG? Why are you saying that?

Interesting. So you agree that a transgender woman and a man can't conceive a child. So by your own definition:


It is not natural because, two men can't have a child nor two women.

sex between a man and a transgender woman is unnatural.

[jamesedwards]

Transexual:
noun
1.
a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2.
a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.
---------
So if a TG gets hormone treatment to get the characteristics of the opposite sex, a person who has problems with their hormones that are imbalanced they can get treatment to help them balance their hormones out. I don't understand why people are so blind to this when doctors help people all the time.

[dreamon]

Transexual:
noun
1.
a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2.
a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.
---------
So if a TG gets hormone treatment to get the characteristics of the opposite sex, a person who has problems with their hormones that are imbalanced they can get treatment to help them balance their hormones out. I don't understand why people are so blind to this when doctors help people all the time.

Exactly! And so they can't conceive a child with a biological male. This is why sex between a transgender woman and a biological male is fundamentally unnatural. You have shown me the way.

[jamesedwards]

When I talked about this state of being where a person could get help when they feel imbalanced, I was waiting for someone to put up the clinical def. But people are saying all types of crap to me cause I used "Imbalanced". Well there is a term for it, it's called "Gender Dysphoria." You can go and get help. Say if I was born a male and I feel feminine and I don't like it, I go to the doctor and they can give me a prescription.

Let me tell you what happens, people like this are found out and get ridiculed, homosexuals step in and say "Its ok to be gay" the person feels comfy with the gays and then that person identifies as gay. If that person would of gotten help from physicians that person would of been balanced. When these types of people come about people not need ridicule them but support them in getting the help they need.

[jamesedwards]

Exactly! And so they can't conceive a child with a biological male. This is why sex between a transgender woman and a biological male is fundamentally unnatural. You have shown me the way.

Glad to be have been an assistance to you. This is why we need to have these talks, its ok to play around some times, cause I do it, but serious subjects need to be talked about.

[Lester316]

Yes nothing screams masculinity like the following naked ladies:

874639874640 874643

Your point is flawed. My point was that Lila hasn't started to physically transition as yet as far as I am aware. Two of the pictures you have used as examples are TS girls with augmented breasts (or at the very least hormone use) and Holly has long hair whilst Lila is currently wearing a wig. I could go and find pictures of 3 young cross-dressers and it would be more on point than what you have used as examples. Now Lila identifies as female but until she transitions the perception to some other students would be that she is a cross-dresser and not a girl; providing a separate locker room helps to protect her and the other students from any suggestions of impropriety from either side.

Genetically Lila is still male in every outward perceivable way which is why I don't think it is the right time for her to be using the girl's locker room. As stated I support anyone's transition I just think it would be fair and practical for all involved for her to use the extra locker room facility which has been provided; bearing in mind it is a school and children have enough going on in their lives at a generally confusing age without being forced to share changing areas with someone who looks male but identifies as female.

[Lester316]

I think some people forget what it is like to be a teenager. Just like every other high school male, I was a horny ass mother fucker. I did a ton of stuff to try to hook up with girls in high school- I got a fake ID, I went into debt to buy a nice car, I shopped at Abercrombie and Fitch, I said "hella". But I'll tell you what- I wouldn't have dressed up like a girl and worn a wig around for a million dollars. Being a varsity football player still didn't protect me from bullying and ridicule. Like I would have purposefully have subjected myself to even more teasing?

To anyone that thinks someone is so desperate to see a girl naked that they would dress like the opposite sex all the time, clearly you have forgotten what being a high school student is like and haven't heard of the internet. Where you can woman naked all the time. For free. Without subjecting yourself to bullying and ridicule.

Your point here is also flawed. You are quite correct to suggest it is crazy to think someone would dress up like a girl and wear a wig just to see naked girls but you also point out that schools are rife with bullying and ridicule. It is those aspects of being a teenager at school which perfectly demonstrate the need for a locker room for Transgender students; a place where they can use the facilities with others who understand what they are going through and not a place where they are mixed in with some students who neither understand or sympathize with them.

[DeezNuts515]

James uses an avatar of a TS with a large cock, photoshopped to appear abnormally huge, yet drones on and on about the abnormality of a human being attracted to the same organs they currently possess. This troglodyte serves no further purpose on this forum.

The first time I drank beer, it was a lifestyle choice. The first time I smoked weed, it was a lifestyle choice. When I converted to Islam in college, it was a lifestyle choice (same thing when I decided that all religion is stupid, and became an Atheist). In all of those scenarios, I weighed the decisions, comparing and contrasting the pros and the cons.

The first time I kissed a girl, I was in Kindergarten. I didn't consciously sit there and think about whether I wanted to kiss a boy or a girl. I wasn't attracted to the boys, at all. At a very young age, I liked girls. I wasn't even aware of TS women until I got to college. The first time I saw Thais Anderson jerking off in House of Shemales, I got an erection, and at that point, I realized I was attracted to beautiful women with penises. Jailhouse beast TS women do nothing for me. I don't get an erection looking at a naked man.

Watching TS porn is a lifestyle choice. Being attracted to TS women, or being attracted to a member of the same sex, is not a lifestyle choice. It's unbelievably stupid to hold this viewpoint in 2015. But considering the source, I'm not surprised.

[DeezNuts515]

That's just a typo, learn to spot the difference.

As for trolling, James, you're the biggest troll on this site. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the individual cases presented, your last couple of threads are deliberately looking to present transgenders in a bad light. What is your agenda?

Yes, it was a (very embarrassing in retrospect) auto-correct, as I was typing on my phone. I will ensure better proofreading in the future.

[Lester316]

It's a shame that a debate about rights and what is appropriate in a school setting seems to have come secondary to people's opinions of each other. Sometimes we get lost deconstructing how someone makes a point and the importance of the question/point itself gets lost in the shuffle.

Whether or not people believe (as Laphroaig has suggested) if James is trolling and trying to present transgender people in a bad light there is a genuine and important question buried in his comments. Like many others I come to this board as a genuine lover and supporter of transgender people but I also believe that as a society it is logically insane and not practical to accommodate one person's wishes when that may impact on a great many other people. Lila's wish to use the girl's locker room is 100% understandable but enforcing it is by no means fair or practical when you take other people's wishes into account.

The school took all reasonable steps to provide Lila with a locker room area/changing facility that she can use but because she doesn't like it she gets what she wants. Giving one person special treatment whilst refusing to respect the wishes of a vast number of others simply isn't a fair thing to do. How can any society claim to be reasonable if it infringes the rights of a very large number of people by going beyond what it is necessary just to keep one person happy?

[mildcigar_2001]

I think the increasing emphasis on transgender/gay "rights" is going to spark a backlash in this country if LGBT Community attempts to push these "rights" beyond the bounds of common sense.

The common sense approach is to treat the transgender high school student humanely, which it appears the school district was doing by providing a gender neutral bathroom.

An example of "rights" being pushed too far is attempting to place this transgender student (still with complete male parts) in the midst of the girls' locker-room. If the LGBT Community tries to push things beyond the bounds of common sense then there will be repercussions and actual legitimate hard-earned rights are going to be taken away.

This situation is analogous to the debate now taking place on illegal immigration (one side wants near open borders, and the majority of the country thinks this is a bad idea and people are made that the situation has gotten so far out of control).

[dreamon]

Your point here is also flawed. You are quite correct to suggest it is crazy to think someone would dress up like a girl and wear a wig just to see naked girls but you also point out that schools are rife with bullying and ridicule. It is those aspects of being a teenager at school which perfectly demonstrate the need for a locker room for Transgender students; a place where they can use the facilities with others who understand what they are going through and not a place where they are mixed in with some students who neither understand or sympathize with them. So we're going to normalize transgender students by separating them from the student body?

[Lester316]

That's not and never was my point.

Normalization is a strange word anyhow, are you suggesting everyone should be the same, think the same way, or act the same way? The sensible and practical option is to provide facilities that suit the needs of those who use them to the best of our abilities.

Forcing 'normalization' or acceptance on any individual or group is prone to failure regardless. Teaching and understanding are required not making people do something they do not want to do.

[broncofan]

Lester,
People haven't focused just on his mode of expression but also the things he has said when he put the question to everyone. You seem to have an issue with this transgender using the female's locker room, but not with an initial post about transsexuals and gay men and women trying to impose their lifestyles on other people. Nor an issue with all sorts of homophobia being promoted within this thread as part of the initial post that we were asked to respond to. I find your claim that you are not here to argue disingenuous when we were responding to the posts in the thread, with special emphasis on the first post which started it.

So what is the topic of this thread? Why don't you read the first post and find out. It is not about whether one transgender girl should use a restroom, but about the pending harm being brought about by transsexuals and gay men and women generally. It would all be nice if we could just state our views in the abstract but we are always at least responding to the first post.

I also don't buy most of your arguments about why a transsexual should not be able to use a restroom matching her gender identity but I was pleased that Fred had posted that our most liberal states have already passed favorable laws and imagine much like gay marriage it will be sorted out in due time. Slippery slope arguments and arguments about administrative efficiency and the majority being able to claim their discomfort trumps the rights of someone with much more at stake don't convince me. But yes, it's kind of bizarre to me that someone can start a thread with pretty obvious hatred and you can pretend that it is not annexed to the main topic or just as relevant to address.

[fred41]

I believe until there is , at the minimum, a state law or dept. of education mandate on these situations, they can often be handled on a case by case basis. In Lila's case I don't think I'd mind if she changed in the same locker room as my daughter (assuming I had one of course)...and I don't think my daughter would mind if she was in any way like me.



The school took all reasonable steps to provide Lila with a locker room area/changing facility that she can use but because she doesn't like it she gets what she wants. Giving one person special treatment whilst refusing to respect the wishes of a vast number of others simply isn't a fair thing to do. How can any society claim to be reasonable if it infringes the rights of a very large number of people by going beyond what it is necessary just to keep one person happy?

What if an all white locker room didn't want a black student changing with them ...or a handicapped student? When do the considerations of the individual outweigh the considerations of the majority in your opinion?
If a psychologist labeled Lila a transsexual , I think I'd be good with that. But I understand that not everyone's going to agree with me on this...ten years ago I probably would have argued otherwise.

[broncofan]

If a psychologist labeled Lila a transsexual , I think I'd be good with that. But I understand that not everyone's going to agree with me on this...ten years ago I probably would have argued otherwise.
You avoid a slippery slope by having a reasonable process. I think that would be one. It actually does a lot to address the fears of the opponents of the measure.

The other argument I see is that we've chosen biological categories, and they are the simplest and most straight-forward single categories, so that's what we should stick with. But of course nothing prevents the adoption of slight changes or exceptions to the general categories. It doesn't really make it much less feasible if you understand why you chose the initial categories and why it is you're making an exception.

One of the reasons we chose these categories is probably privacy based, not just matching like with like...and if that's the case then an analogy between gender identity AND sexual orientation is warranted. One reason people are not uncomfortable in the presence of those biologically similar is not just that they have the same parts and functions but also maybe their suspicion (or misapprehension) that it's unlikely someone has an incentive to look at their body. Frequently people suspected of being gay are accused of peeping, and a mtf transsexual will be subjected to homophobia in a boy's bathroom regardless of her sexual orientation. So I thought it was perfectly relevant that you pointed out that if the girls are afraid she has some prurient interest in seeing her body, they would be just as likely to have gay women checking them out.

The reason the main subject took a backseat to my concern with James's posts is that his posts highlight a much bigger problem. As I said, if someone thinks a mtf ts should not use the girls room I can understand their reasoning without necessarily agreeing, but I can't understand them thinking that it highlights a problem of an over-aggressive lgbt community trying to harm children. The worst possible outcome for the children is that they end up like James, thinking that homosexuality is the result of imbalance genes and that a gay co-worker who mentions that he has a partner is bombarding him with gay shit.

[dreamon]

Normalization is a strange word anyhow, are you suggesting everyone should be the same, think the same way, or act the same way?

I'm suggesting that everyone should be treated the same way.

[Lester316]

Lester,
People haven't focused just on his mode of expression but also the things he has said when he put the question to everyone. You seem to have an issue with this transgender using the female's locker room, but not with an initial post about transsexuals and gay men and women trying to impose their lifestyles on other people. Nor an issue with all sorts of homophobia being promoted within this thread as part of the initial post that we were asked to respond to. I find your claim that you are not here to argue disingenuous when we were responding to the posts in the thread, with special emphasis on the first post which started it.

So what is the topic of this thread? Why don't you read the first post and find out. It is not about whether one transgender girl should use a restroom, but about the pending harm being brought about by transsexuals and gay men and women generally. It would all be nice if we could just state our views in the abstract but we are always at least responding to the first post.

I also don't buy most of your arguments about why a transsexual should not be able to use a restroom matching her gender identity but I was pleased that Fred had posted that our most liberal states have already passed favorable laws and imagine much like gay marriage it will be sorted out in due time. Slippery slope arguments and arguments about administrative efficiency and the majority being able to claim their discomfort trumps the rights of someone with much more at stake don't convince me. But yes, it's kind of bizarre to me that someone can start a thread with pretty obvious hatred and you can pretend that it is not annexed to the main topic or just as relevant to address.


broncofan,
OK let me be 100% clear on a few things. I am responding to the thread with my opinion on an issue, my genuine opinion. I have no issue with Lila or any transgender person using the female locker room (bearing in mind I am not female I can't fully understand the impact on the female students I am simply making a logical assumption that not all of them would be happy with the situation) - I have been debating the practicalities of enforcing such a policy and the impact on people's rights. My belief is that the important point of this thread is to look at how we do things to accommodate everyone's rights to the best of our ability. Key to that is trying to accommodate everyone's rights, it means that whilst that we consider things and do the best we can although that might not always please everyone. Lila is the example cited in the thread; she has been given facilities she can use but wants to use facilities other people use. She has a right to want that, they have a right to not want that. The practical solution until specific laws are debated and passed is for each party use the facilities provided to them.

I read the first post a long time ago, I do not need you to point me in it's direction. I read and replied to the part of it that I wanted to discuss. That I have chosen not to engage homophobic statements means I don't want to debate homophobia with someone who comes off as homophobic, it doesn't mean I condone homophobia in any sense of the word. I am just not interested in arguing that point here in this thread, I have spent enough time in my life dealing and arguing with homophobia and if I want to tackle that specific subject I will.

You can find my stance as disingenuous as you like but it my opinion and utterly genuine, calling me disingenuous just because you disagree with what I have said or because I have chosen not to engage in a particular part of the debate you choose to is ridiculous. I fully understand homophobia and have suffered from it; I know of how homophobia effects people's lives and no one will ever convince me that forcing people to comply with something that they are not comfortable with will ever do anything but damage for those standing up for LGBT rights. If we want to move forward, help people learn and understand then telling parents that their children must share a changing area with another child who is their biological opposite will not work. Promoting understanding so that we can reach a point where children like Lila are better understood and can use the facilities they feel comfortable in will take time; change doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen because you force people. It happens when they learn and realize what is needed.

I personally think that ultimately one day the solution will be better educated parents and children and one big uni-sex locker room; my argument simply is you don't make that happen like a bull in a china shop, you work around the situation as best you can and get there eventually through rational thought.

I should add again I am am always completely genuine when I post here; I don't expect everyone to agree with what I think/say but I consider my thoughts carefully and take time in typing out my arguments, I also always try to be polite and respectful. When you called me disingenuous it is the closest I have ever come on this forum to using some very colorful language in response - I was and still am thoroughly insulted by your accusation. But it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Of course it's safe to say I do not agree.

[Lester316]

I'm suggesting that everyone should be treated the same way.

That's a noble idea. I fully support that. But when people are very different you cannot always treat them the same way; there are a multitude of variables to consider. Hopefully one day we will reach a stage where we have complete and utter equality across the board no matter how diverse people are but we are not there yet.

Normalizing a transgender student by making other people share a locker room with them isn't going to help us reach that place though; opinions currently are too varied and too divisive. It will take a lot of learning, understanding and acceptance first. Enforcing such changes on people who aren't ready to accept them yet is more likely to have a negative effect on their opinion regarding transgender rights than a positive one. Once we reach a point where such changes can be fully democratically put in place that will be a different story altogether.

[Nikka]

874768

[Lester316]

I believe until there is , at the minimum, a state law or dept. of education mandate on these situations, they can often be handled on a case by case basis. In Lila's case I don't think I'd mind if she changed in the same locker room as my daughter (assuming I had one of course)...and I don't think my daughter would mind if she was in any way like me.



What if an all white locker room didn't want a black student changing with them ...or a handicapped student? When do the considerations of the individual outweigh the considerations of the majority in your opinion?
If a psychologist labeled Lila a transsexual , I think I'd be good with that. But I understand that not everyone's going to agree with me on this...ten years ago I probably would have argued otherwise.

Personally if I had a daughter I wouldn't mind either; and I'd hope if I had raised her to follow my beliefs she would be the same. The problem is it's not our hypothetical daughters or the daughters of people who agree with you that will feel uncomfortable with enforced changes such as the one in Lila's case. If we are to respect people's rights we must consider the opinions of people who simply aren't ready for such changes yet and until such point when they are ready (or laws are passed which make things clearer) the practical solution has been provided by the school in the example - there is a third locker room.

The two major differences between Lila's case and those you have suggested (white and black students, fully able or handicapped students) are first of the law (legally we all know where we stand in those cases) and secondly the debate of feelings coupled with genetics. We don't force genetically female and male students of any ethnic or cultural background or levels of able-bodiedness to share changing facilities - we keep the male and females separate particularly in schools as we don't know if they are all emotionally ready to do so. In fact we haven't even reached a point where unisex changing areas for adults are the social norm, it would seem to me that those who are more mature need to be able to deal with such a thing before we make our children do so.

Lila is still 100% biologically male, she identifies as female and feels it is her right to use the female facilities (i get that, I understand it and I sympathize) but I don't think everyone especially children who may not be emotionally ready should be forced into something they aren't ready for because of someone's feelings.

[jamesedwards]

If you keep writing like this, I am going to have to give you the award of GREAT WRITING !!!! LOL


Your point here is also flawed. You are quite correct to suggest it is crazy to think someone would dress up like a girl and wear a wig just to see naked girls but you also point out that schools are rife with bullying and ridicule. It is those aspects of being a teenager at school which perfectly demonstrate the need for a locker room for Transgender students; a place where they can use the facilities with others who understand what they are going through and not a place where they are mixed in with some students who neither understand or sympathize with them.

[lifeisfiction]

That's a noble idea. I fully support that. But when people are very different you cannot always treat them the same way; there are a multitude of variables to consider. Hopefully one day we will reach a stage where we have complete and utter equality across the board no matter how diverse people are but we are not there yet.

Normalizing a transgender student by making other people share a locker room with them isn't going to help us reach that place though; opinions currently are too varied and too divisive. It will take a lot of learning, understanding and acceptance first. Enforcing such changes on people who aren't ready to accept them yet is more likely to have a negative effect on their opinion regarding transgender rights than a positive one. Once we reach a point where such changes can be fully democratically put in place that will be a different story altogether.

We haven't reached that point. I think you have made very strong points, because people are really forgetting we are dealing with kids. Not every 13 year-old will understand the very nature and on top of that we are talking about kids who are very insecure about their own body. I don't know if people have ever worked kids or have kids, but if you have you will know they think they understand the world, but they are still growing up. It is kind of obvious from the teenage girls they don't feel comfortable the with Lila's physical body. Of course, the body of naked boy will come as shock to some of them. Even though some understand it is a little girl still learning about their selves in a new manner. This is something different. Obviously they have never dealt with, neither were educated and plainly will struggle to grasp.

Lila just started transition and will in time learn, transition takes time, it is something that does not happen over night. While people may support her transition, it will take time for people to become not accepting, but seeing her as Lila. Lila has just begun to transition, some should help her understand it takes time for people to adjust, understand come to terms with a person's new identity. They as student body has seen her as identify as a particular sexual identity. Now she is telling them she wants to transition. We don't live there, we don't know her, but they do.

Its not whether my daughter or son or realiative of a similar age will understand. It is do they have the maturity and understanding to handle something that teenagers in general struggle with, my goodness have you ever had to deal with a little girl constantly comparing her body to her friends. Sheesh. We cannot thrust something up a child and expect them as an adult to handle it.

Lester has made solid points and if you disagree focus on his arguments nothing else.

[jamesedwards]

You are nuts, just like your name request! First off the Avatar is not photo shopped that's her regular cock! See you are talking out of your ass again!
My purpose again, is to protect THE GIRLS RIGHTS! Everyone knows I love me some TG and along with my GG have some good freaky sex! I am a grown up! As grown ups we should not impose our shit on young girls or boys, let them mature into their own sexual infrastructure without being shocked, or forced into some sexual bullshit of another who don't follow rules. What I mean by that is Lila was given a locker specifically to Lila. Now you tell me this, why in the fuck would Lila then go into the girls locker room after Lila was given Lila's own locker room? How many times do I have to say the school accommodated Lila and respected that Lila needed Lila's on space then Lila makes the decision to violate the girls locker room. Answer that question! This shit is not hard, its not about my avatar, its not being a troglodyte, Neanderthal or any primitive being. You keep talking about shit that has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

I brought it up because its serious, their might be another young TG here wanted to do the same thing to people who don't accept TG. You can't make people accept TG's, I can't! you know what makes me different from you? I like feminine TG's but I don't let that shit blind me from the fact of other people's facts and reality, you do! You're so caught up in defending TG's even when they are wrong you try and make the wrong seem right, I am not going for that shit!

Why would Lila go into the girl's locker room after Lila was given Lila's own facility to change?



James uses an avatar of a TS with a large cock, photoshopped to appear abnormally huge, yet drones on and on about the abnormality of a human being attracted to the same organs they currently possess. This troglodyte serves no further purpose on this forum.

The first time I drank beer, it was a lifestyle choice. The first time I smoked weed, it was a lifestyle choice. When I converted to Islam in college, it was a lifestyle choice (same thing when I decided that all religion is stupid, and became an Atheist). In all of those scenarios, I weighed the decisions, comparing and contrasting the pros and the cons.

The first time I kissed a girl, I was in Kindergarten. I didn't consciously sit there and think about whether I wanted to kiss a boy or a girl. I wasn't attracted to the boys, at all. At a very young age, I liked girls. I wasn't even aware of TS women until I got to college. The first time I saw Thais Anderson jerking off in House of Shemales, I got an erection, and at that point, I realized I was attracted to beautiful women with penises. Jailhouse beast TS women do nothing for me. I don't get an erection looking at a naked man.

Watching TS porn is a lifestyle choice. Being attracted to TS women, or being attracted to a member of the same sex, is not a lifestyle choice. It's unbelievably stupid to hold this viewpoint in 2015. But considering the source, I'm not surprised.

[broncofan]

I haven't seen any really solid points. He says the difference between the examples Fred provided and the other groups of people are that we know where we stand on those other issues because the law is established. But there was actually a point in time where we did not know where we stood on those issues as we had segregated bathrooms. The argument basically says that we should favor laws that have been around a long time and are well established (a traditionalist argument), that the rights of the majority should trump those of a minority regardless of the rights at stake, and that you cannot force people to be more inclusive. Is that true? Have we ever forced people to be more inclusive in this country or just waited for them to become more educated? I would say we do that frequently. If people do things without legislation then the legislation is hardly necessary. Again, it's not the disagreement I mind so much but the claim that others were straying from topic.

I think I am being told I should focus only on what he's said regardless of what he's said it in response to. Sorry but that's just not how things work. If for instance, I said I disagreed with the actions of the NAACP on one issue and someone responded directly to me with a barrage of racism, I would probably address it. Or if someone had a criticism of the anti-defamation league (an organization that combats anti-semitism) and I agreed with their criticism, but their criticism also included all sorts of vulgar statements I would not demand we only talk about the ADL. I appreciate he wants to talk about a sub-set of the issues, but he also urged other people to remain on topic. I was only reminding him of what that topic is.

[jamesedwards]

If motha fuckas are so stupid to think I don't support TGirls you are out of your FUCKING MIND! There are plenty of topics one can easily show me sexing a TGirl and sucking TGirl's cock etc. Again, I will not let my like for TGirls blind me from taking a stance or what is right! I fuck TGirls along with my GG or alone without my GG but that don't mean I should fucking force young girls or boys to what I like, I am a grown fucking man. Children need to be protected bottom fucking line. That's a fact not an opinion, if you think children shouldn't be protected then you are beyond a fucking troglodyte you are fucking EVIL! How about that!

These young people have to deal with to much shit as I have posted, now this too? What else? What's next? You know why they walked out? Because pressure bust pipes they can't take it no more. They are saying fuck this shit, we have to deal with terrorism, weapons, rape etc now this shit? Fuck this! I don't blame them, and they are not stupid either. The fact, not opinion that Lila was given a place to change fucks Lila's whole shit up. The fact is Lila violated the school system! Plan and simple.

WHEN DO WE PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!!

[jamesedwards]

You just typed a bunch of bullshit, I am beginning to really think you're a troll, then you motha fuckas got the nerve to try and flip it back on me about me trolling, fucking serious?

Bronco Fan, WHY DID LILA LEAVE THE LOCKER ROOM GIVEN TO LILA BY THE SCHOOL AND VIOLATE IT TO GO INTO THE GIRLS LOCKER ROOM? DO YOU THINK IT WAS WRONG FOR THE YOUNG GIRLS TO WALK OUT OF SCHOOL?


I haven't seen any really solid points. He says the difference between the examples Fred provided and the other groups of people are that we know where we stand on those other issues because the law is established. But there was actually a point in time where we did not know where we stood on those issues as we had segregated bathrooms. The argument basically says that we should favor laws that have been around a long time and are well established (a traditionalist argument), that the rights of the majority should trump those of a minority regardless of the rights at stake, and that you cannot force people to be more inclusive. Is that true? Have we ever forced people to be more inclusive in this country or just waited for them to become more educated? I would say we do that frequently. If people do things without legislation then the legislation is hardly necessary. Again, it's not the disagreement I mind so much but the claim that others were straying from topic.

I think I am being told I should focus only on what he's said regardless of what he's said it in response to. Sorry but that's just not how things work. If for instance, I said I disagreed with the actions of the NAACP on one issue and someone responded directly to me with a barrage of racism, I would probably address it. Or if someone had a criticism of the anti-defamation league (an organization that combats anti-semitism) and I agreed with their criticism, but their criticism also included all sorts of vulgar statements I would not demand we only talk about the ADL. I appreciate he wants to talk about a sub-set of the issues, but he also urged other people to remain on topic. I was only reminding him of what that topic is.

[broncofan]

You just typed a bunch of bullshit, I am beginning to really think you're a troll, then you motha fuckas got the nerve to try and flip it back on me about me trolling, fucking serious?

I actually think you're too moronic to have a conversation with. I will occasionally be addressing your bigoted statements, but not answering questions that have already been addressed within my posts.

[jamesedwards]

LESTER IS ON FUCKING POINT!

Let me show yall some thing, those same young girls and their parents will now say "YOU SEE THAT'S WHY I DON'T LIKE THOSE FUCKING TRANS PEOPLE THEY ARE GOING AFTER OUR CHILDREN AND THEY CAN'T CONTROL THEMSELVES, YOU GIVE THEM AN INCH AND THEY TAKE A FUCKING MILE".

Now you have a fire, that's now turned into a bigger fire and will keep burning.

Lila should have never violated the locker room! Period!

[jamesedwards]

I actually think you're too moronic to have a conversation with. I will occasionally be addressing your bigoted statements, but not answering questions that have already been addressed within my posts.

You don't know the difference between a bigot and a realist! You think you can't have a convo with me because you want your way and that's it, when the facts are laid on the table, you can't fucking deal with them!

Again you didn't answer that shit! You can talk and write books about me that has nothing to do with this thread yet you got to get back to me later? LOL WTF!

Why did Lila violate those girls locker? Answer that shit, you don't have to have a convo, it's a question and you provide the answer, you can't look the shit up on wikipedia! See your fucking emotions is flaming up and you can't handle my logical question at hand!

[jamesedwards]

BroncoFan am I typing to fast for ya ? LOL

[broncofan]

Why did Lila violate those girls locker?
I was reading something else. I don't know what you mean by violating a locker. She did not violate a locker. She used the locker room because she identifies as female and wants to live the rest of her life that way. I see a lot of arguments that if the lgbt community tries to encourage a more inclusive solution, there will be a backlash. I am really familiar with this argument as it is ubiquitous in response to pro-civil rights arguments.

It is great to encourage education and incremental change where more dramatic change is difficult for others to accommodate. But in this case we actually have the largest state by population in this country that has this as their mandate. I think your insinuation that her using the female locker room is a "violation" as you repeatedly say is abusive and bigoted. That's all. Any other questions?

[lifeisfiction]

I haven't seen any really solid points. He says the difference between the examples Fred provided and the other groups of people are that we know where we stand on those other issues because the law is established. But there was actually a point in time where we did not know where we stood on those issues as we had segregated bathrooms. The argument basically says that we should favor laws that have been around a long time and are well established (a traditionalist argument), that the rights of the majority should trump those of a minority regardless of the rights at stake, and that you cannot force people to be more inclusive. Is that true? Have we ever forced people to be more inclusive in this country or just waited for them to become more educated? I would say we do that frequently. If people do things without legislation then the legislation is hardly necessary. Again, it's not the disagreement I mind so much but the claim that others were straying from topic.

I think I am being told I should focus only on what he's said regardless of what he's said it in response to. Sorry but that's just not how things work. If for instance, I said I disagreed with the actions of the NAACP on one issue and someone responded directly to me with a barrage of racism, I would probably address it. Or if someone had a criticism of the anti-defamation league (an organization that combats anti-semitism) and I agreed with their criticism, but their criticism also included all sorts of vulgar statements I would not demand we only talk about the ADL. I appreciate he wants to talk about a sub-set of the issues, but he also urged other people to remain on topic. I was only reminding him of what that topic is.

I don't think the issue is segregated bathrooms. You are dealing with children. Not adults. It is having a child deal with the body issues when we all know they don't understand it. The bathroom was put in place to help the children adjust. If you had a male friend, who said to you after knowing him for years he was transitioning, while you would support him it will take you some time to adjust. This is you has an adult, not some little girl who of course is enduring her physical and social change. I know Lila wants acceptance, but she has to give others the time to understand and to be educated. To deal with the situation in mature manner.

Its child is trying to understand their own sexual identity and others. We can't thrust something upon them they don't understand or feel comfortable with. We have to help the understand over time. If you want kids to understand you have to help educate them on various things. I mean schools do have sex education, because they don't know their own bodies and many of the changes.

[broncofan]

The other problem in talking with you James is that if anyone makes an argument that's even remotely abstract you are completely lost and think they are engaging in witchcraft or something.

BTW, if anyone is curious why I said I thought Lester was being disingenuous it is because it is not my experience that someone who is concerned about transphobia and homophobia responds to a subject laced with it by ignoring it and then telling others they should too. Then insisting on the importance of the subject he wants to discuss and why it should be pre-eminent over other ones in the first post of the thread.

[jamesedwards]

You see what has happened is, some of you run in cliques, and that's fine, then you try to topple me with your bullshit and not handle the topic at hand. Lester and a few comes along and say hey what about the girls rights, then you try to diss me, but then Lester keeps writing brilliantly and articulates himself well as do I and now you are fucked up. You're caught up in your emotions and emotions never win, facts do.

Yall tend not to see how fucking serious this is, the parents of those children could get seriously out of control because they are out there, one of them could easily lose it by getting a fucking gun and taking Lila's life. No yall wanna talk about my penmanship, how I don't support TGirls, etc, the fuck are you talking about? Really!

You type all sorts of bullshit, long books on me but can't answer one question!

[broncofan]

I don't think the issue is segregated bathrooms. You are dealing with children. Not adults. It is having a child deal with the body issues when we all know they don't understand it. The bathroom was put in place to help the children adjust. If you had a male friend, who said to you after knowing him for years he was transitioning, while you would support him it will take you some time to adjust. This is you has an adult, not some little girl who of course is enduring her physical and social change. I know Lila wants acceptance, but she has to give others the time to understand and to be educated. To deal with the situation in mature manner.

I didn't say the issue was segregated bathrooms. The original example given to Lester was whether the subjective comfort level of the majority can justify the exclusion of someone who is less enfranchised. He responded that in those other examples the law is clear. I was only saying that the law has not always been clear. When you are trying to construct a rule, I don't think that much deference should be given to the status quo, otherwise you will never have reform.

Anyhow, I am not saying it is not an adjustment for people to understand what a transgender girl is and to accommodate them. But I think high school students can understand why she has transitioned and what her reasons are for wanting to use the bathroom. I just think that the discomfort they have in sharing a locker room with her is not as significant as the discomfort of forcing the mtf transsexual to use the men's room or to be completely isolated, even if there are a lot of them and only one of her.

[jamesedwards]

You see this is what I am talking about. Check this out dude, I asked you a question
and you continue to write garbage. Fuck me and fuck what I rep, answer the question. Give a logical answer to your question. If I don't agree I can tell you logically and factually why I don't agree.

Here is my point once again.

Lila was given a locker room by the school facility, Lila violated the young girls by going into their locker room.

You don't understand the point of violation? Well let me help you understand. Lila violated because of the point LILA WAS GIVEN A PLACE TO CHANGE! Meaning there was a point from the school facility to say "Here Lila you can change here and you won't have any problems" yet Lila took it upon Lila's self to go beyond Lila's OWN locker room given to Lila by the school to go into the girls Locker room, that's a violation! So much so children walked out! Are you telling me you don't understand that? You make it seem as those I am making up some territory band against Lila when I didn't the school did!

DEF.
VIOLATE, verb (used with object), violated, violating.
1.to break, infringe, or transgress (a law, rule, agreement, promise, instructions, etc.).
2.to break in upon or disturb rudely; interfere thoughtlessly with:
to violate his privacy.

So let me ask again:
Bronco Fan, WHY DID LILA LEAVE THE LOCKER ROOM GIVEN TO LILA BY THE SCHOOL AND VIOLATE IT TO GO INTO THE GIRLS LOCKER ROOM? DO YOU THINK IT WAS WRONG FOR THE YOUNG GIRLS TO WALK OUT OF SCHOOL?


The other problem in talking with you James is that if anyone makes an argument that's even remotely abstract you are completely lost and think they are engaging in witchcraft or something.

BTW, if anyone is curious why I said I thought Lester was being disingenuous it is because it is not my experience that someone who is concerned about transphobia and homophobia responds to a subject laced with it by ignoring it and then telling others they should too. Then insisting on the importance of the subject he wants to discuss and why it should be pre-eminent over other ones in the first post of the thread.

[lifeisfiction]

I just think that the discomfort they have in sharing a locker room with her is not as significant as the discomfort of forcing the mtf transsexual to use the men's room or to be completely isolated, even if there are a lot of them and only one of her.

There in lies the problem. You feel it is not as big of a deal. I might even want agree with you, but I prefer to exclude how I feel and step into shoes of both parties. Obviously they have tried to accommodate Lila. Some would say it is not sufficient, but then again we are dealing with adults or kids? Do kids understand everything going on, no. The law infers certain protections on children under the idea they cannot in some scenarios understand the situation. While I feel it should happen a certain way reality works different then how I feel about something.

[jamesedwards]

Now LifeisFiction and putting up the case, and now you are running around his comments! :bs:

[broncofan]

You say repeatedly that she violated the girls. I don't agree that's what happened. You can't ask a question that assumes a conclusion. If you're asking why she went into the girl's locker room I've already answered that. The answer is above. Do I think the girls were right to walk out of the school? No, they'll end up as uneducated as you are if they don't stay in school.

The people who are giving you a thumbs down and who occasionally give me a thumbs up are not part of a clique. Some of them I've never communicated with ever, and some I've had less than cordial interactions with before. They all agree that what you've said is disgraceful which is why your posts are littered with negative votes.

[broncofan]

There in lies the problem. You feel it is not as big of a deal. I might even want agree with you, but I prefer to exclude how I feel and step into shoes of both parties. .
This is literally saying that you would prefer to credit the subjective views of both parties regardless of the values they reflect. Therefore, if a woman wants to obstruct a gay couple's marriage she should be able to, because what matters are not the values we inculcate but how she feels about it. Yes, if someone is upset that a transgender woman is using their lockerroom because they've been told that the person is a pervert, then my concern is with the reality and not their subjective view of it.

[dreamon]

Everyone knows I love me some TG and along with my GG have some good freaky sex!

But you said that sex with TGs is unnatural. Why would you do that.

[broncofan]

Now LifeisFiction and putting up the case, and now you are running around his comments! :bs:
You obviously think people are as dumb as you are. You consistently lose an argument, then you see someone who says something that agrees with you on one point or another and you champion their cause. But the problem is that you also think you write very well and that your comments make sense. Nobody else does. You end up acting as a contra-indicator more than anything else.

[dreamon]

If motha fuckas are so stupid to think I don't support TGirls you are out of your FUCKING MIND! There are plenty of topics one can easily show me sexing a TGirl and sucking TGirl's cock etc. Again, I will not let my like for TGirls blind me from taking a stance or what is right! I fuck TGirls along with my GG or alone without my GG but that don't mean I should fucking force young girls or boys to what I like, I am a grown fucking man. Children need to be protected bottom fucking line. That's a fact not an opinion, if you think children shouldn't be protected then you are beyond a fucking troglodyte you are fucking EVIL! How about that!

These young people have to deal with to much shit as I have posted, now this too? What else? What's next? You know why they walked out? Because pressure bust pipes they can't take it no more. They are saying fuck this shit, we have to deal with terrorism, weapons, rape etc now this shit? Fuck this! I don't blame them, and they are not stupid either. The fact, not opinion that Lila was given a place to change fucks Lila's whole shit up. The fact is Lila violated the school system! Plan and simple.

WHEN DO WE PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybNI0KB1bg

[jamesedwards]

Ok, I Broncofan I see your point that Lila sees Lila as a female. Cool, for Lila, but lets look at the young girls, what do they see Lila as? A guy with a wig on, with a dick and balls who VIOLATED their locker room. They felt violated, because if they didn't they wouldn't have walked out of school. It was understood to everyone that Lila had Lila's own facility. I think you take issue with me using the word violated.
This is to much for the girls and it seems that people are not looking at it in that stance. Our children need protection, and they shouldn't be sexually shocked by this.

My stance is for the children regardless! At a time in life children shouldn't even be worried about this type of stuff let alone sex! They should be learning in a comfortable institution, next there will be a female who wants to go in the boys locker room, now that may have a twist to it because boys may want to have a female in it, LOL and maybe not we have to see. But I am telling you this shit can get taken to the next level where someone dies! Lila is not looking at it from a stand point of disrespecting others, Lila is thinking of Lila's self! That's not going to crack it.


I was reading something else. I don't know what you mean by violating a locker. She did not violate a locker. She used the locker room because she identifies as female and wants to live the rest of her life that way. I see a lot of arguments that if the lgbt community tries to encourage a more inclusive solution, there will be a backlash. I am really familiar with this argument as it is ubiquitous in response to pro-civil rights arguments.

[jamesedwards]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybNI0KB1bg

I had to give you a thumbs up LOL :dead: :dead: :dead:

[jamesedwards]

Well bro some people are seeing at the same point and stance I see it, protect the children, the fact Lila was given a place to dress etc. Again you keep talking about how I write and what not, I make errors writing but I really don't care here, as long as people get it. When I am at work I articulate myself well. Seems like others get it too, but again you are caught in your emotions towards me because of my thread that I started on the subject.
No where did I say people were stupid, see you are subliminally saying people are stupid, you think I didn't catch that shit? You think you're slick and you're not, you didn't have to bring that shit up but you did, so are you calling Lester and Fiction stupid and the other couple of people who are looking at this to support the girls?


You obviously think people are as dumb as you are. You consistently lose an argument, then you see someone who says something that agrees with you on one point or another and you champion their cause. But the problem is that you also think you write very well and that your comments make sense. Nobody else does. You end up acting as a contra-indicator more than anything else.

[jamesedwards]

Bronco Fan you're so fucked up right now that you still haven't answered my question. The fact that you even looked at my avatar and said its photo shopped is even more ridiculous! If you ever seen that TGirl that's her real dick size so dammmmmmmm! You're wrong!

BF you focus on he wrong shit! That has absolutely nothing to do with the thread its self and now people are seeing it, the more you type the more they see that you're not on subject. You can diss me all day but answer the question about the girl! A logical one at that!

It seems you have to sit back and think on it being you're emotionally caught up and you want to go against what I said, you see how easy and free it was for me to give you my stance? If yo have a stance to agree with what Lila did then say it, but let it be logical!

Everyone is waiting for what the Big BroncoFan has to say. Lets see if you can think as well as you claim you articulate yourself on this forum.

[lifeisfiction]

This is literally saying that you would prefer to credit the subjective views of both parties regardless of the values they reflect. Therefore, if a woman wants to obstruct a gay couple's marriage she should be able to, because what matters are not the values we inculcate but how she feels about it. Yes, if someone is upset that a transgender woman is using their lockerroom because they've been told that the person is a pervert, then my concern is with the reality and not their subjective view of it.

I like your example, but it does not apply to this situation. This is not a situation of varying views. This is an issue of having a child grasp with the idea of seeing someone naked in front of them with completely different anatomy. To expect a teenage boy or girl to feel comfortable. It is why there is separate changing rooms to help children feel comfortable about their bodies. To not feel so out of place.

To say them you have never had this situation before and we did not help you understand this situation. In fact, we know you are still adjusting to this situation, so deal with it. That is not how you deal with children. They don't fully grasp everything. If Lila wants to change in the girls locker room they should have worked with the children on situation so they would not feel out of place. It is not a matter of whether Lila or girls or right. Didn't anyone pick up the girls had known and accepted Lila when she identified as gay male. It was when she after knowing her for years she recently identify as trans and they must adjust over night? Impractical.

Educate a child and they will understand what is going on. Thrust it upon them and there should no surprise if they reject it.

[broncofan]

Bronco Fan you're so fucked up right now that you still haven't answered my question. The fact that you even looked at my avatar and said its photo shopped is even more ridiculous! If you ever seen that TGirl that's her real dick size so dammmmmmmm! You're wrong!.
Right about now I am wondering whether someone logged into my account and said that to you. I don't recall mentioning the photograph in your avatar.

Of course if you attribute other people's posts to me it seems like I'm all over the place:).

[jamesedwards]

I have the perfect solution for the whole situation.

Let Lila have the girls locker room and give the girls Lila's locker room. Now if Lila goes into that locker room where the girls are then Lila is purely violating as I said, and now just want to start shit! That means Lila is trying to force people to agree with what Lila is doing! That would be definitely a solution.

It won't work with Lila getting naked in front of girls with balls and tits, and then what if another Lila comes out? That person will want to go into the locker, and so on. Its not going to happen where Lila will be in that locker room.

Is Lila getting SRS?

[jamesedwards]

Fucking best quote of the month!!!!!! Astonishing!


I

Educate a child and they will understand what is going on. Thrust it upon them and there should no surprise if they reject it.

[fred41]

Okay, ...enough with the children stuff, they're young adults. Lila's 17 ...I'm guessing her former locker room mates are about the same age. I believe you can join the military at that age and experience the horrors of war. A year later you can become a law enforcement officer in many counties. People at that age understand plenty. There are posters on this site that are half my age that understand shit that it took me decades to understand. This is exactly the time you educate people on stuff like this. We should protect young people (actually all people) from violence...not education.

[jamesedwards]

Right about now I am wondering whether someone logged into my account and said that to you. I don't recall mentioning the photograph in your avatar.

Of course if you attribute other people's posts to me it seems like I'm all over the place:).

Ok if you didn't say it, I apologize, I am not going to go back to prove it but I know it was said. so If it wasn't you, then I apologize! I stand corrected.

And I hope no one broke into your account cause I can't deal with two of you motha fuckas :dead:

[broncofan]

I like your example, but it does not apply to this situation. This is not a situation of varying views. This is an issue of having a child grasp with the idea of seeing someone naked in front of them with completely different anatomy. To expect a teenage boy or girl to feel comfortable. It is why there is separate changing rooms to help children feel comfortable about their bodies. To not feel so out of place.

To say them you have never had this situation before and we did not help you understand this situation. In fact, we know you are still adjusting to this situation, so deal with it. That is not how you deal with children. They don't fully grasp everything. If Lila wants to change in the girls locker room they should have worked with the children on situation so they would not feel out of place. It is not a matter of whether Lila or girls or right. Didn't anyone pick up the girls had known and accepted Lila when she identified as gay male. It was when she after knowing her for years she recently identify as trans and they must adjust over night? Impractical.

Educate a child and they will understand what is going on. Thrust it upon them and there should no surprise if they reject it.
It's no big deal that we disagree. I understand what you're saying. I do actually think it's a situation of varying views. I think a lot of the concerns of the children are based on myths they've been told by their parents about the motivations of the ts. If the high school children have not ever dealt with the situation then educating them would be to tell them, "this is someone who was born male, but identifies as female. She wants to change in your dressing room and we have no reason to believe she is any danger to you." As you know, locker rooms are not only for children but adults use locker rooms at gyms. The reason we have locker rooms if that people in general feel more comfortable changing only with members of the same biological sex. I'm not saying their adjustment would be trivial but I think you underestimate their ability to understand Lila's situation and be accepting of her physiological differences. Just to underscore that a lot of the discomfort may actually be based on mythology and not just self-consciousness, it is interesting to note that the conflicts seem to occur in places of the country that are more riddled with myths about lgbt members.

I don't agree that if you mandate something it will make people reject it. Actually, the only reason anything is mandated is because at least one person rejects it. I'm not saying there is no adjustment period, but I think it's educational to tell high school students that they should be tolerant of other's differences. If others think it's too early, I understand. I definitely feel adult ts women should be able to use female facilities. Some would disagree when it comes to those who are under 18...as I understand the concept of parent autonomy and that they do have recognized rights to control the upbringing of their children which is why it's such a divisive issue.

[Lester316]

This is literally saying that you would prefer to credit the subjective views of both parties regardless of the values they reflect. Therefore, if a woman wants to obstruct a gay couple's marriage she should be able to, because what matters are not the values we inculcate but how she feels about it. Yes, if someone is upset that a transgender woman is using their lockerroom because they've been told that the person is a pervert, then my concern is with the reality and not their subjective view of it.

Er broncofan you seem to be twisting some people's word a fair bit..

lifeisfiction made the following statement which you quoted along with your thoughts above: 'There in lies the problem. You feel it is not as big of a deal. I might even want agree with you, but I prefer to exclude how I feel and step into shoes of both parties.'

Exactly how does saying you would step in the shoes of both parties equate to what you said?: 'Therefore, if a woman wants to obstruct a gay couple's marriage she should be able to, because what matters are not the values we inculcate but how she feels about it.'

That wasn't lifeinfiction's point in fact (and if they correct me I will stand corrected); I think the point that was made was about measuring points of view on both sides of a debate and maybe as I have advocated doing the most sensible practical thing you can in response. It certainly doesn't mean listening to one person's view only which actually equates to arguments which sympathize with Lila's circumstances and feelings and then put into action just what she wants not others. Her thoughts and feelings are as important as anyone else's but they should not supersede the thoughts and feelings of those people in importance.

I would also like to mention you have misinterpreted or twisted my words on occasion too. I did not suggest everyone should follow my point, or insist that it should be 'pre-eminent' over other ones in the first post in the thread. I pointed out I felt a valid point was being lost among other arguments and gave my opinion on that point. Everyone here can discuss whatever points they feel are valid that's what a debate is but please don't misconstrue what I have said or accuse me of being disingenuous (as you did earlier).

Taking other people's words and putting your 'spin' on them is unfair, it's takes somebody's opinion and changes it and fails to take any consideration for how they think and feel. Doing something similar in not valuing other people's thoughts and feelings is something that many here have expressed as a huge issue when related to the situation regarding Lila. In fact to quote you once more:

' I just think that the discomfort they have in sharing a locker room with her is not as significant as the discomfort of forcing the mtf transsexual to use the men's room or to be completely isolated, even if there are a lot of them and only one of her.'

How can you or any of us equate or value one person or group's feelings (ie: their discomfort) as not as significant as another's? That would demand knowing the operation of their mind(s) and I'm pretty sure you aren't Professor X. In a circumstance where we cannot equally measure feelings, discomfort and understanding as a society we do what is logical (ie: provide Lila with a locker room that she and other transgender students can use) until such time as society debates the situation and those we elected pass laws which make things clear.

That might take a while, it could well be too slow, it certainly could do with speeding up; but forcing people to capitulate and do something they disagree with isn't a constructive way to deal with things. History has proven that logical debate can solve issues; it's why quite rightly people like Martin Luther King are held up as paragons who inspired change and why dictators like Stalin or Hitler who force ideologies upon people are rightly recognized as truly evil. Now of course we are not talking about a situation as extreme as some of those examples but if they teach us anything it is that democracy and the voice of rational people causes real change not force.

If we want people like the parents and children from Lila's school who object to understand and accept such change simply saying 'this is the rule, get on with it' will not work. If anything it will only harden their views in opposition.

[jamesedwards]

True and I stated that they understand that is why they walked out. What they don't like is having a boy who says he is a girl come into their locker room and seeing a cock and balls. Their parents are teaching them one way and the TG society is trying to teach them another, this adds confusion. They are teens lets not get it twisted, they don't have everything figured out as say to a 40 year old person. You can join the miliary at 17 if a parent signs for you. 18 you can sign up without the consent of the parent. Being that's so just because you're 18 don't mean you fully understand the world or you are a responsible adult. I don't know to many if not none, 17 teen year old people who own a house. Millionaires maybe, not normal everyday teenagers, they are still children to me. Their minds are still developing and at that stage they are trying to figure out who they are.


Okay, ...enough with the children stuff, they're young adults. Lila's 17 ...I'm guessing her former locker room mates are about the same age. I believe you can join the military at that age and experience the horrors of war. A year later you can become a law enforcement officer in many counties. People at that age understand plenty. There are posters on this site that are half my age that understand shit that it took me decades to understand. This is exactly the time you educate people on stuff like this. We should protect young people (actually all people) from violence...not education.

[broncofan]

Lester,
Lifeisfiction understood what I was saying. Perhaps I generalized...he said I was failing to see something from the point of view of the children and I said that we can't just accept someone's subjective experience of something even if it's based on mythology. Then he said logically in response that it isn't so much their subjective views he's concerned with but that at that age it's almost a universal experience to feel self-conscious about your own body. That's my recollection.

I think he also understood I wasn't accusing him of sympathizing with the woman who wants to obstruct gay marriage. The argument is similar to reductio ad absurdum...it basically says that this is the logical consequence of believing what you state for the reasons you state. Then you propose something more severe that you know they would not agree with. It works precisely because they don't agree with the more extreme consequence and they must then provide another reason to support their viewpoint.

If for instance someone says, "I agree with any policy that is democratically passed". You can challenge this by saying, "you would agree with the summary execution of political prisoners if we can get enough votes for it?" The answer is of course no they don't and they must modify their statement or clarify it and tell you they have various other reasons for feeling the way they do.

[jamesedwards]

Now I could actually agree with this, I know two TGirls who are passable and they use the women's bathroom. They have had no problems. But would they if women found out they had cocks and balls? Maybe or maybe not. This is the thing they are ADULTS, and they can probably show some compassion. The reality it some are not going to accept it even if they understand, they just don't like gays, lesbians or TGirls. That's just the way it is.



I definitely feel adult ts women should be able to use female facilities. Some would disagree when it comes to those who are under 18...as I understand the concept of parent autonomy and that they do have recognized rights to control the upbringing of their children which is why it's such a divisive issue.

[lifeisfiction]

Okay, ...enough with the children stuff, they're young adults. Lila's 17 ...I'm guessing her former locker room mates are about the same age. I believe you can join the military at that age and experience the horrors of war. A year later you can become a law enforcement officer in many counties. People at that age understand plenty. There are posters on this site that are half my age that understand shit that it took me decades to understand. This is exactly the time you educate people on stuff like this. We should protect young people (actually all people) from violence...not education.

Eventually someone was going to make a statement about maturity. Yes there are teenagers that very mature and there are adults that very immature. I don't know these kids personally.

1. The first point, I have been making applies not to children, but to everyone. Education is not something to look down upon, the more you learn about something the more you can break stereotypes and barriers. The more you know the better you will accept others. What has helped the LGBT community was helping people understanding they were no different. The shift on gay marriage was the simple fact gay couples are not really different than traditional couples.

2. The age of 18 as a mark of being mature is what is called a legal fiction. There is no basis for it other than we as society feel a person should be accountable at that age. There is nothing magical that happens as a person turns 18. It is the same concept they allows a corporation under certain laws to act as a individual even though a corporation is not a person. So Fred there is merit to your argument that some kids can understand. I will not give a blanket statement that all kids can understand. This the case where the law has to try accommodate all individuals.

I understand if some feel Lila should have no problem and this should not be an issue, but sadly this not what we have. People need to understand the transgender community and who they really are, not some silly idea that has no reflection of the community. It is why when people think of transgender woman they think of some burly guy in a dress. When in reality, guys are usually shocked on how beautiful some women are and it indeed takes time to transition. For some these issues are cut and dry, but no issue is as cut dry as it seems.

I think I have said what could be said without being redundant. I have no interest undermining Lila's rights, but people to understand what Lila is going through so they themselves can see her needs. Without the proper education, it just ends in further misunderstanding.

(There are few more issues, but I will wait to see if someone brings them up)

[Lester316]

broncofan,

I get your point somewhat and ultimately it is lifeisfiction's place to agree or disagree with the specific areas that you both commented on. I interpreted in my way and stand by my comments until lifeisfiction cares to correct me; if they do so I stand corrected.

Your last statement there:

'You can challenge this by saying, "you would agree with the summary execution of political prisoners if we can get enough votes for it?" The answer is of course no they don't and they must modify their statement.'

You are making the assumption there that of course no they don't, that again (whether their opinion is right or wrong) calls for the operation of their mind. Something which none of us can truly be sure of with other people.

I also note you haven't responded to where I have mentioned about how you have at the least misconstrued my words and also called me disingenuous... maybe you missed that part?

I respect your opinion - I don't agree with you in many areas - but I certainly haven't insulted you and suggested you don't mean what you say. As I said earlier I've dealt with homophobia, I understand how hurtful it can be; funnily enough I was less hurt by that in a way though. Suffering from the actions of intolerant people who needed to be educated seeing as society had let them down is something I can rationalize but being called disingenuous (by someone who seems to be an educated and rational person) when I'm very careful in my views, try hard not to offend and speak from both the head and the heart feels much more insulting.

[lifeisfiction]

I feel Lester is being pragmatic about the situation. Trying to find a solution that benefits everyone without undermining anyone. It is never an easy task.

[broncofan]

I apologize for calling you disingenuous. I suppose what I meant is that I thought we were presented with a package of ideas, some related and some not. We were asked to comment on this one issue, whether Lila should use the restroom, but I thought it occurred in the context of it being used as an example of the perniciousness of lgbt.

I understand it seems unfair that when someone expresses themselves as respectfully and thoughtfully as you have that they should have an affirmative obligation to address everything that is said that is of equal consequence to the primary question. I now accept that you didn't because you are not a confrontational person (a good thing), which means when you said that was your reason, you were not being disingenuous. That's why I am apologizing for saying it.

[jamesedwards]

Hey bro, bring out the issues I would like to see them. They could be important and help someone.




(There are few more issues, but I will wait to see if someone brings them up)

[Lester316]

I feel Lester is being pragmatic about the situation. Trying to find a solution that benefits everyone without undermining anyone. It is never an easy task.

Thank you, it really is never an easy task and sometimes no matter how hard you try whatever suggestion or solution you come up with will never please everyone or even anyone. Ironically sometimes the result of democracy when debating things and coming up with the solution is that no one is happy with the outcome but at least it is fair.

Perhaps here in the UK Transgender issues/rights are behind the times in terms of publicity compared to the U.S. so my frame of reference is less informed. Or maybe we have just adopted the most rational and doable solutions for circumstances like Lila's and people are just getting on with things in a traditionally stiff upper lip British way without making much of a fuss.

[jamesedwards]

Let me ask this and before I ask let me say this.

For me I am satisfied how the school reacted at accommodating Lila's position and setting Lila up with a locker room.

Do you feel the school handled it well or not?


I feel Lester is being pragmatic about the situation. Trying to find a solution that benefits everyone without undermining anyone. It is never an easy task.

[lifeisfiction]

No, need. They were not address and therefore do need to be brought up. I love discussions where people try and understand each other. I give great respect to broncofan and lester trying to understand each other and come to an understanding of each others view points. While it was not smooth sailing they both displayed a willingness to listen, not just argue for the sake of arguing. A nice change from HA's usual arguments.

[Lester316]

I apologize for calling you disingenuous. I suppose what I meant is that I thought we were presented with a package of ideas, some related and some not. We were asked to comment on this one issue, whether Lila should use the restroom, but I thought it occurred in the context of it being used as an example of the perniciousness of lgbt.

I understand it seems unfair that when someone expresses themselves as respectfully and thoughtfully as you have that they should have an affirmative obligation to address everything that is said that is of equal consequence to the primary question. I now accept that you didn't because you are not a confrontational person (a good thing), which means when you said that was your reason, you were not being disingenuous. That's why I am apologizing for saying it.

Thank you. That's all I could and would ask for and it was very nicely put.

Honestly as I posted about a moment ago I think there is an element of stiff-upper-lipness still here in the UK which means whilst there are plenty of LGBT issues to debate and many people here who are intolerant I have focused on the particular issue that was new to me. I really can't think of a circumstance similar to Lila's ever becoming something widely known over here (let alone debated); I think it may be that up until very recently 16 was the voluntary age at which children could leave school. Maybe that slight difference in the maximum age has kept such issues much more private and protected (for the child's sake) and who knows now all British children stay at school until 18 issues like Lila's may become more public.

Of course I should add for any that haven't read the original post I'm not saying Lila is in the UK she is in the U.S. I've just not heard of anything similar over here making the press.

[Lester316]

I would also finally like to add I have found this thread to be an engaging place for debate. One which has been much more fulfilling than many others that come up, thank you to everyone who has discussed back and forth it's been rewarding.

Unfortunately as a self admitted geek and gamer this has also distracted me from Metal Gear Solid V so I will be blaming you all for not getting around to that yet :mad: hopefully after some sleep I'll find time though.

[jamesedwards]

Awwwwwwwwwwwh shit lol :dead: he has blamed us for not gaming ohhhhh fuck LOL

New Thread -"who rather game than talk about TGirls" is it wrong or right? LOL ahahahah :dead:

On the serious side thanks to you for articulating your points exquisitely.




I would also finally like to add I have found this thread to be an engaging place for debate. One which has been much more fulfilling than many others that come up, thank you to everyone who has discussed back and forth it's been rewarding.

Unfortunately as a self admitted geek and gamer this has also distracted me from Metal Gear Solid V so I will be blaming you all for not getting around to that yet :mad: hopefully after some sleep I'll find time though.

[DeezNuts515]

First off the Avatar is not photo shopped that's her regular cock! See you are talking out of your ass again!


I'm not even going to acknowledge the idiocy of the rest of your points. I just want to focus on this. How the fuck can you possibly think that's a "real" cock?

[jamesedwards]

How the fuck can you think it's not!!!!!


I'm not even going to acknowledge the idiocy of the rest of your points. I just want to focus on this. How the fuck can you possibly think that's a "real" cock?

[DeezNuts515]

How the fuck can you think it's not!!!!!

Even if I didn't once teach a class on Photoshop, it would be obvious to anyone NOT a complete moron that it has been enhanced.

[Laphroaig]

Even if I didn't once teach a class on Photoshop, it would be obvious to anyone NOT a complete moron that it has been enhanced.

But surely this is real? ;)

875010875011

[jamesedwards]

Because I have seen the other pics of her, there are many TGirls with big dicks man, then you show me that it is photo shopped and be able to do it with facts, then I will say ok it's photo shopped. The angle the pic that its taken it makes it look that much bigger! If you can't show me then STFU. Then I ask why the fuck are you so worried about my Avatar? You're the only tap dancing asshole who is on it in this fashion!



I'm not even going to acknowledge the idiocy of the rest of your points. I just want to focus on this. How the fuck can you possibly think that's a "real" cock?

[jamesedwards]

I wonder if THEIR cocks is enhanced? hmmmm

http://hungshemales.net/hosted/1i.francismuttishower/photos/12.jpg

http://www.adultnet.tv/dbfiles/films/1102/tgp/01.jpg

[Laphroaig]

Because I have seen the other pics of her, there are many TGirls with big dicks man, then you show me that it is photo shopped and be able to do it with facts, then I will say ok it's photo shopped. The angle the pic that its taken it makes it look that much bigger! If you can't show me then STFU. Then I ask why the fuck are you so worried about my Avatar? You're the only tap dancing asshole who is on it in this fashion!

I've just posted 2 more of her in my last post. Can you honestly say they aren't photshopped as well? A clever photographer, using perspective and a wide angle lens can make anything look bigger than it really is. But, in the pic's I've posted the girl is too far away for that trick to work.

[jamesedwards]

If it is then it is, if it's not then it's not. Its not affecting my life nor yours. Still a wonderful pic none the less.


I've just posted 2 more of her in my last post. Can you honestly say they aren't photshopped as well? A clever photographer, using perspective and a wide angle lens can make anything look bigger than it really is. But, in the pic's I've posted the girl is too far away for that trick to work.