The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

[Stavros]

The death of Alexander Litvinenko from radioactive poisoning in London in 2006 is a curious affair. A public enquiry that has just ended has not really told us anything we did not know before, although evidence from MI6 was held in secret so we may never know just how involved Litvinenko was with British intelligence, or what he did or did not do for them. Unfortunately he made a lot of allegations about the FSB (formerly KGB) and Vladimir Putin (for example that he is a paedophile) which either have not been or cannot be verified, but it is beyond doubt that he was killed as a result of the Polonium 210 that was put in his tea by two former associates in the FSB, both of whom deny it. The important fact is that in Russia it is not possible to obtain Poloniium 210 at the level required to kill someone in a supermarket or a chemist shop, it had to have come from the military, and one also assumes that it is difficult -impossible?- to take radioactive materials through security in airports, not sure how that works.

But what this raises, if the Russian state sanctioned its use, is the theoretical possibility that the murder of Alexander Litvinenko was, in effect, a nuclear attack on the UK -not a state attacking a state, but a state attacking an individual. I don't know where that leaves deterrence as a doctrine, but a retaliation in kind by the UK does not seem either likely or desirable -but should the murder be classed as a 'nuclear attack' given that Polonium 210 is used to make nuclear weapons?

There is a wikipedia on Litvinenko here-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko

[Laphroaig]

Short answer, no it shouldn't be classed as a "nuclear attack" although the issue of how the Polonium was obtained/sanctioned is a worrying one.

As an aside, the point you make about taking radioactive materials through airport security is an interesting one. I've never given it any thought before, but Radium and Tritium (both used in illuminating watch dials) are radioactive, yet presumably millions of watches pass through security scans every day without triggering any alarms. Does make you wonder what the settings/sensitivity of the detectors are.

[trish]

Watch dials used to be painted with radium and given a final coat of white phosphorous. White phosphorous is not radioactive. However, when exposed to light it undergoes a number of chemical reactions with oxygen and hydrogen to cause it to glow for a short while. Exposing it to the continuous radiation (like that emitted by radium) would cause it to glow continuously. Watches dials no longer are painted with radium or other radioactive substances, which is why modern watches don’t glow all through the night.

Still, I’m not at all certain the TSA is set up to detect radioactivity. It X-rays your suitcases, it X-rays you and it runs you through a metal detector. That’s all I’m aware of.

I thought Litvinenko was stuck with polonium tipped dart shot from clever umbrella gun. I must be thinking of someone else. What’s curious is why would the Soviets use such a self-identifying poison.

I agree with Laphroaig, it’s not an example of a nuclear attack, though it has all the earmarks of a State attacking a individual legally within the borders of another nation.

[broncofan]

I think the umbrella dart was used to target someone with ricin. I can't recall who it was but it was a decade or so earlier if I'm right. I think the authorities believe Litvinenko ingested the Polonium.

[broncofan]

If the Russians really are crazy enough to plan and carry out an assassination with nuclear material and it was a centrally made decision, I agree retaliation is not a good idea. I'm not sure what is though.

[Stavros]

I thought Litvinenko was stuck with polonium tipped dart shot from clever umbrella gun. I must be thinking of someone else. What’s curious is why would the Soviets use such a self-identifying poison.


The Bulgarian dissident who worked for the BBC World Service, Georgi Markov was the man killed with a Ricin dart in 1978 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov

[sukumvit boy]

Love this thread , thanks all :cheers:
Geez , great mini tutorial on watch dials , thanks trish. You pressed all my science trivia buttons:party:
Stavros may remember that I posted some information on the Litvinenko murder on an earlier discussion about Putin and the murders of at least 6 other dissidents including journalist Anna Politkovskaya .
Polonium 210 has a short half-life of only 138 days , and although highly radioactive , not very practical for power generation ,such as aboard spacecraft . Short half life radioisotopes are widely used in medicine and are routinely shipped and handled in lead-aluminum containers. So it doesn't necessarily need to be carried by an airline passenger. Polonium 210 is used in the paper industry ,not medicine ,but very rare and ,the key point of the inquiry,almost certainly from a nuclear facility.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2007/January/Polonium210.asp

http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-6-other-russian-dissidents-who-also-died-mysteriously-in-recent-years-2015-2

http://www.chemicool.com/elements/polonium.html

[sukumvit boy]

Deadly old watches and 'The Radium Girls'.
http://elginwatches.org/help/luminous_dials.html


865093865094865095865096865097865098

[Stavros]

Love this thread , thanks all :cheers:
Geez , great mini tutorial on watch dials , thanks trish. You pressed all my science trivia buttons:party:
Stavros may remember that I posted some information on the Litvinenko murder on an earlier discussion about Putin and the murders of at least 6 other dissidents including journalist Anna Politkovskaya .
Polonium 210 has a short half-life of only 138 days , and although highly radioactive , not very practical for power generation ,such as aboard spacecraft . Short half life radioisotopes are widely used in medicine and are routinely shipped and handled in lead-aluminum containers. So it doesn't necessarily need to be carried by an airline passenger. Polonium 210 is used in the paper industry ,not medicine ,but very rare and ,the key point of the inquiry,almost certainly from a nuclear facility.


Thanks for the interesting post, and apologies that I do not recall the posts you made on the murders of Putin's opponents. What that raises is the most curious issue, why, since most of Putin's enemies/critics in the link you offered, were shot dead, was Polonium 210 used as a murder weapon? I have an interesting book on the case written by the New York Times journalist Alan S. Cowell -The Terminal Spy (200-eight) where he quotes a Russian 'Kremlinologist', Stanislas Belkovsky
' "Polonium is just a demonstration. It's like a visiting card left at the scene of the crime...Polonium was used to show it was the secret services...If the FSB were really involved, they would have used another tool" '; and he then cites a 'former British intelligence official' who told him ' "if he had been murdered professionally by the FSB, I don't think we would know he had been murdered"' (all from Chapter 14, page 406)

-But although the medical teams treating Litvinenko deduced that he was being killed from the inside by radiation poisoning it seems clear that the people who murdered him did not believe the cause of death would be made at all, and that Litvinenko's strange death would not have been exposed as murder but possibly explained as an auto-immune collapse similar to but not derived from AIDS.

The first diagnosis of radiation poisoning as the cause of Litvinenko's illness was made on the 16th of November when it was believed he had been poisoned by Thallium, and this also initiated the criminal investigation into his death which took place on the 23rd (see Cowell on this in Chapter 11 from page 265 onwards). As a result of what Litvinenko managed to tell the police before he died, their follow up inspections of the places where Litvinenko said he met Lugovoi and Kovtun were revealed to have traces of radiation, but Polonium 210 was only identified by atomic scientists at the Aldermaston research centre on the day Litvinenko died in the final batch of urine samples from him that they had to work with and which they treated with exceptional care -otherwise the cause of death might never have been known. This was not revealed publicly until after Litvinenko's death because of the political implications, which Cowell describes as 'the ultimate threat, the nightmare that had stalked the Cold War and its buildup of nuclear arsenals'. Added to which came the question -where did the Polonium come from?

According to Cowell, the old Soviet nuclear facility at Sarov was the place where the Polonium was manufactured, and it is estimated that the amount of Polonium used to kill Litvinenko would have cost 'a few thousand dollars', as the material can be produced in bulk and it is not incredibly expensive to do so, although when you set the cost of Polonium against the cost of buying a gun, even on the black market in London it seems an unusually expensive and elaborate a way to kill someone, after all, both Lugovoi and Kovtun knew Litvinenko; they could have arranged a meeting somewhere, and sat in the lobby of their hotel while a third or fourth person abducted him, bumped him off and buried him in a field far away, never to be seen or heard of again. And so on. It is possible that the Polonium was placed into a small vial which would not have been detected in security at airports, although Cowell says that Russia it is transported in lead containers so I am still not sure how it was transported.

The most puzzling thing is why such a high risk form of radiation poisoning was used at all, even if the aim was to kill someone without the cause being discovered, which suggests a cock-up, rather in the way that the bomb on Pan-Am 103 was supposed to explode when the aeroplane was flying over the Atlantic, not Lockerbie in Scotland.

[sukumvit boy]

Two prior attempts to kill him failed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30994242

[Stavros]

Two prior attempts to kill him failed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30994242

Yes -but why Polonium 210?

[sukumvit boy]

As you pointed out they almost got away with it.

[sukumvit boy]

Because P-210 is an alpha emmiter and not likely to be detected by the usual tools such as a Geiger counter.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/features/2007/who_killed_alexander_litvinenko/whodunnit.html

[Stavros]

It just seems to me to be such a risky way to killing someone, when there are other methods. If you follow these things it is now being suggested that a Russian 'supergrass' Alexander Perepilichnyy could have been murdered in the UK because he had "explosive" information in an investigation into a Russian money laundering scheme. Moreover, and this is the key point:

Traces of the highly toxic Gelsemium plant, which is found only in remote regions of China. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11626368/Russian-supergrass-poisoned-after-being-tricked-into-visiting-Paris.html), were found in Mr Perepilichnyy’s stomach but the inquest is waiting for more detailed tests..

Again, if they want him dead, why not just shoot him? It all seems so needlessly elaborate, unless there is some sort of message in the use of deadly poisons...

article is here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11787511/Russian-supergrass-death-linked-to-that-of-Alexander-Litvinenko.html

[sukumvit boy]

Looks like another Putin ordered hit ,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/05/alleged-former-russian-spy-critically-exposure-unknown-substance/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/05/alleged-former-russian-spy-critically-exposure-unknown-substance/)
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sergei-skripa-poisoning-russia-spy-death-uk-moscow-warning-putin-a8242096.html

[Stavros]

The signs are there but no proof as yet...a case of 'watch this space'...

[sukumvit boy]

10624401062441

[Stavros]

Below is a link to an assessment by the Telegraph which uses sources such as Anthony Glees and Nigel West, two seasoned writers on spying for many years whose work should not always be taken seriously. For example, Glees claims

“it is clear that either directly or indirectly Sergei Skripal would have been known to Christopher Steele” and added that “anybody who feels that Trump was humiliated and dissed by an MI6 officer may feel that getting at one of his agents is justified. That could be the Russian security services.”

But it is not clear at all, as Glees has not provided any such evidence. Skripal has given lectures to various military colleges as a former officer in Russian Military Intelligence (ie not the FSB) but unless Glees knows something we don't how can it be proven, as is also the case with the Buzzfeed linked which claims Russia has bumped off 14 people in the UK it didn't like?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/07/front-bench-poisoning-russian-spy-raising-sorts-uncomfortable/

Richard Norton-Taylor also with years of reporting on intelligence matters for the Guardian raises the question of what the UK's response to Russia should be if it were found to be the cause. It ranges from the maximum breaking diplomatic relations to selective sanctions, with Norton-Taylor arguing that it is when countries like the UK and Russia stop engaging on a regular basis that actions like this take place, and thus argues for more dialogue at the intelligence level, not less.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/06/britain-putin-russia-sergei-skripal

In fact the UK has severed diplomatic relations before. In 1980 the UK severed all but nominal relations with Iran following the siege of the Iranian Embassy in London, so it wasn't a full break; Iran severed diplomatic relations with the UK when it refused to take action over Salman Rushie and his novel The Satanic Verses in 1989 at a time when the British staff in the Tehran embassy had been evacuated. Relations were restored in 1999 but when the British Embassy was stormed in 2011 relations were again put into deep freeze but diplomatic relations not entirely severed. On that occasion sanctions included a ban on banking relations between the UK and Iran. But as an Iranian academic argued, while various actions against Iran hurt its economy and isolated it from states that had the power to attack it, the moves also isolated the UK because the EU did not respond in concert, thus giving more influence in Iran to France and Germany both of whom were seen to be less in tune with the USA as the UK.
http://www.e-ir.info/2012/01/23/downgrading-iranian-british-relations-the-anatomy-of-a-folly/

On the other hand, in the case of Litvinenko we are dealing with murder using nuclear weapons material, and possibly attempted murder and there is a case of the UK severing diplomatic relations over attempted murder. It happened in 1986 when Nezar Hindawi was found guilty of planting a bomb in an El AL airline in London (it did not go off) in 1985. With evidence that Hindawi was working for the Syrian Government the UK severed relations with Syria that were not restored until 2006.

It is an interesting but difficult choice, and what evidence there is suggests that any actions the UK takes would be limited and that the most effective actions would be collective, for example involving the EU, the USA, UK allies in the Commonwealth, and it seems unlikely at this time that powerful players like the US and China would join, leaving the UK in the increasingly weak position it finds itself in due to Brexit.

[sukumvit boy]

The inquiry widens....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/08/russian-spy-attack-inquiry-widens-as-rudd-condemns-brazen-act-sergei-skripal (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/08/russian-spy-attack-inquiry-widens-as-rudd-condemns-brazen-act-sergei-skripal)

[Stavros]

The UK govt has established that Skripal, his daughter and others have been poisoned by a nerve agent that is part of the Novichuk, military-grade nerve agents first developed in the USSR in the 1970s. It has been argued that whoever carried out the attack may have brought different precursors into the UK and that it is not until these are joined together that they become lethal. Moreover, because the impact of the agent can take up to 18 hours to take effect it is not known precisely where or when it was administered, one theory being that if in powder form it may have been infiltrated into the Skripal family car and triggered by the ignition of the engine when starting up.

The likelihood that agents of the Russian government or FSB were involved has risen owing to the source of the nerve agents, and the identification of Skripal as the victim, and is thus similar to the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in the relative incompetence with which the murder weapon was used, but also its rare source making it inevitable that when identified it would narrow down the murderers to just one country.

As to the response, it is widely believed this will take the form of diplomatic expulsions and sanctions on individual Russians as well as some financial limitations and possibly the removal of RT's license to broadcast in the UK. That the UK needs a co-ordinated response from the EU exposes how weak it is after Brexit -sympathetic noises from France, but muted from Germany- as well as NATO, Tillerson claiming Russia is involved, his boss not even bothering to tweet.

But if the UK wanted a dramatic response that would jolt the Russians -who will retaliate in some form- breaking diplomatic relations would be an option, much as it did to Syria over the attempt to blow up an El Al aeroplane in London in 1986, but this has apparently been ruled out already. The other jolt would be for the UK to withdraw the England football team from this summer's FIFA World Cup competition, where we already know Russian hooligans have declared unofficial war on England supporters though it is hard to believe the Russian state would allow street fights of the kind that took place during the Euros. But apparently that is also not on the table though officials of the England team will not go to Russia. In fact, the UK should persuade FIFA to remove the World Cup from Russia and ask the EU to host it instead. Even at this late stage, it would not be hard to organize it across the EU for the first time, and the final could be played at Wembley Stadium in London, the Russia team having been suspended. This would deeply hurt the Russians from the State down to the citizens looking to benefit from the competition, but the sums of money involved are so great the people who stand to benefit most will give Putin a free pass on the Salisbury attack (which so far has not led to a death) just as the other crimes Putin has committed from the Crimea and the Ukraine to Syria go unpunished.

In the end this is all about money, the investments made in Russia by certain powers; the investment made by Russia in certain countries, and individuals. The little guys, that is, you and me, are of no importance, be we living or dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43377698

[peejaye]

Jack shit will happen. No proof of Russia being involved, just "Establishment spin" & speculation from a frail weak old woman, you call our Leader, trying to get a grip & sound tough when she is almost broken & soon to be replaced! All Tory spin to dominate the news instead of informing us what dirty tricks they are up to next!
& to quote the fucking BBC, don't you ever give up? Bigger fucking liars than the Tories themselves.

[broncofan]

Jack shit will happen. No proof of Russia being involved, just "Establishment spin" .
There's evidence not absolute proof, but common sense also says it was Russia. There is precedent for Russia using exotic methods of killing people on British soil. There is the fact that it was a Russian spy who was poisoned. There's the fact that the poison is exotic enough that there are a limited number of sources for it. Surely the people didn't poison themselves?

Who do you think poisoned Sergei Skripal and why?

[peejaye]

I agree with everything you say but as you say; there is no proof, just strong speculation. Without proof what can be done? Would you send a man to prison without proof? The media are so corrupt in this country more and more people are starting to disbelieve them as each day passes by! Especially Sky & the BBC.

[broncofan]

I agree with everything you say but as you say; there is no proof, just strong speculation. Without proof what can be done? Would you send a man to prison without proof? The media are so corrupt in this country more and more people are starting to disbelieve them as each day passes by! Especially Sky & the BBC.
There's the proof you require to condemn someone and then the proof that's required to investigate and take a good close look at one party, which has surely been met. We know someone did it. Russia is more likely to have than any other individual party by far. It cannot hurt to say out loud what everyone is thinking. I imagine if there are to be sanctions or some other punitive action taken against Russia, there would be a searching process to hear all the facts and be convinced to some reasonable degree it was Russia.

At this point, if your government asks serious questions of the Russians and there's evasiveness and other bullshit, that should be enough. Just my take.

[peejaye]

This country is nothing to Russia. They must laugh their cocks off at the obsession we have with their country & this little "tin-pot" place certainly cannot harm them. There are plenty of Russian billionaires living in Mayfair & Belgravia in London & what our "Correspondent of the Establishment" forgot to mention is; The Tories have received £820,000 in donations from Russia this year alone, of course, the Tories are insisting it's not from the Kremlin so that's ok. Embarrasses me to be British with this lot.

[broncofan]

This country is nothing to Russia. They must laugh their cocks off at the obsession we have with their country & this little "tin-pot" place certainly cannot harm them.
You guys are obsessed with Russia? They murdered a subversive with nuclear material on your streets and now another one of their spies ends up dead from a poison that a limited number of places produce, one being Russia. What would qualify as a healthy suspicion? I don't imagine the Russians see your country as a tin-pot place or anything of the sort and the Russians have wrought absolute havoc on Europe and the U.S. by interfering with elections, and murdering journalists, politicians and former spies.

Do you think the Russians have interfered with free elections because they don't think it will work or that they don't have interests to further that warrant the risk of alienation? Do you think all these Russians hostile to their regime end up dead by accident? You may have your differences with the Tories, but I would hope you all see foreign enemies taking hostile actions on your soil as a bigger problem than partisan politics.

[broncofan]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russian-exile-nikolai-glushkov-found-dead-at-his-london-home?CMP=share_btn_tw

I'm definitely not rushing to judgment on this one, just posting it as something of interest right now.

[peejaye]

I would just point out that I was with a Russian girl for 7 years visiting regularly between 2000-2007 so I have experiences over there. That's why I laugh so much at most of the propaganda from the far right. :)
You give them lots of credit for interfering with all these elections? I wish I were half as clever as them!

[Stavros]

Jack shit will happen. No proof of Russia being involved, just "Establishment spin" & speculation from a frail weak old woman, you call our Leader, trying to get a grip & sound tough when she is almost broken & soon to be replaced! All Tory spin to dominate the news instead of informing us what dirty tricks they are up to next!
& to quote the fucking BBC, don't you ever give up? Bigger fucking liars than the Tories themselves.

Blimey mate, Theresa May is 61 and you call her an 'old woman'? Maybe wait until she is 80?

In 2009 a government security document leaked to the Telegraph revealed that HMG has identified spies operating in the UK from Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea, France and Germany and 13 other countries. Most are focused on commercial espionage-

In today's high-tech world, the intelligence requirements of a number of countries now include new communications technologies, IT, genetics, aviation, lasers, optics, electronics and many other fields. Intelligence services, therefore, are targeting commercial enterprises far more than in the past.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/4548753/Britain-under-attack-from-20-foreign-spy-agencies-including-France-and-Germany.html

Who else could have made the nerve agent responsible for the attack in Salisbury? The answer could be any advanced industrial power, except that the production of chemical weapons is illegal in international law, while precursors may be made for non-military use and then assembled for such uses -but that leaves the question, why? On this basis one could surmise the US, Japan, North Korea, China and the Ukraine have the expertise. A lot will depend on the precise identity of the agent if it can be done but that raises the question: why this man living in the UK and why this mode of attack?

What reason would the US, North Korea or say, Syria have for murdering an ex-military Russian intelligence officer and his daughter? We know that in theory Syria agreed to dismantle and destroy its chemical weapons facilities and stockpiles under the agreement between the USA and Russia in 2013 but that there have been claims the Syrians did not comply; or, even if they did, they still have access to chemical weapons purchased from North Korea, and that these are being used to attack Ghouta east of Damascus which was also the place attacked in 2013 that led to the aforementioned agreement. What would stop Russia purchasing its own stocks from North Korea and more to the point, why is Russia violating the 2013 agreement by not taking action against its Syria ally when it uses chemicals weapons on Ghouta?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23876085

Plenty of retired spies and ex-government officials live in the UK, from North Korea to Nigeria, yet the list of murders is Russian, with yet another Russian -Nikolai Gluushkov, ex-friend of the late Boris Berezovsky- found dead in his London home yesterday, cause of death so far unknown.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russian-exile-nikolai-glushkov-found-dead-at-his-london-home

Think about it: Russians, chemical agents, revenge = Source + agency + motive. That the attacks have been incompetent may suggest to some that these are amateurs, except that chemical weapons are notorious for being volatile and unreliable which is why they have not been standard weapons of war since they were first made illegal in the 1920s. Thus, if it was not the Russians attempting to murder their own, who was it?

On a wider level, it marks the continuation of the breakdown of international rules-based order in which agreements are cast aside for an 'anything goes' attitude. We know that Putin feels betrayed by the West for the manner in which it was -in his view- deceived into supporting regime change in Libya as it became; yet even before this when she became Secretary of State in 2009 Hillary Clinton stated explicitly that she wanted the US to hit the 'reset' button with Russia, just as David Cameron tried, and both of them failed to convince Putin to maintain Russia's open economy and form closer relations with the 'west'. That the west still claims to need Russia's help in the 'fight against terrorism' makes one wonder when we will accept that this relationship is not working.

But how to respond effectively remains a key question to which I have no long-term answer.

[Stavros]

This country is nothing to Russia.

Come on Peejaye, the UK is a major part of the NATO alliance the Russians would love to see dissolved along with the EU; the UK is a source of money laundering for Russian millionaires and billionaires as well as being one of their favourite places to live; the Anglo-Dutch oil company Shell, and the Anglo-American BP have both been major investors in Russia and have retail outlets in the densely populated areas of Western Russia; the UK remains a founder member of the UN and a permanent member of the Security Council.

[peejaye]

So this "demented old biddy" is now thinking of boycotting the World Cup? What the fuck as that got to do with Politics?? Just how much harm will that do to the Soviet Union? Laughable! They will get support from no other country competing. Biggest losers there will be England fans and the team! Typical Tory shite!
Sport is sport & Politics is Politics, some people take it too seriously, mentioning no names.
All FIFA will do if England pull out is replace them with the team from the group who lost out.

[Stavros]

So this "demented old biddy" is now thinking of boycotting the World Cup? What the fuck as that got to do with Politics?? Just how much harm will that do to the Soviet Union? Laughable! They will get support from no other country competing. Biggest losers there will be England fans and the team! Typical Tory shite!
Sport is sport & Politics is Politics, some people take it too seriously, mentioning no names.
All FIFA will do if England pull out is replace them with the team from the group who lost out.

"demented old biddy"-?? I think you can do better than that, and anyway no, that was my idea, as the UK government does not have the power, as far as I know, to prevent the England team or any sporting body to take part in international events. FIFA in any case is a corrupt organization whose primary aim is to make money from football. Nevertheless, the FIFA World Cup is one of the biggest sporting events in the world and for Russia a hugely prestigious event too, but I doubt that either FIFA or individual countries will not take part. It would also be a blow to those small businesses that stand to make money from the event, not just those determined to rip off supporters travelling to Russia.

As for sport being sport, it is embedded in politics, in Russia perhaps more than many other states and I see the World Cup as another means whereby Putin will present himself as a successful politician immune from the punishment he deserves for the crimes his country has committed. Since we cannot prevent the England team from going -Mrs May has said in the House today that no officials or Royal Family will represent the country in Russia- but I would suggest supporters stay home and save their money.

But how do you see this, Peejaye? Is it an act of terrorism? An act of war? An accident?

[broncofan]

I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element, but this is always the speculation when someone turns up dead and it's convenient to the regime. Putin's recent response to the Russian hacking claims was that maybe someone patriotic did it. Even if there are "patriots" carrying out his will, this supposed alibi only makes Russia look like a vast, out of control criminal enterprise. The mafia don does not have to order the hit if the lower rungs know what he wants and what is acceptable to procure it.

The only alternative to these two possibilities given the targets seems to be a false flag. And then there's the question of whether there have been multiple false flags over years and years or only this one. And how does a framed party act? Do they acknowledge the incriminating appearance but protest their innocence or do they immediately make threats and accuse the victimized country of propagating a fake news campaign against it?

This is just the latest in a series of cases in which it looks like Russia, knowing that the world is afraid of unstable nuclear powers, doesn't know exactly how to respond when he acts without any fear of consequences.

[peejaye]

I see it as attempted murder & had we a sufficient Police & Intelligence service they could try & find the perpetrator and lock him up.
I'm convinced Vladimir Putin wasn't in Salisbury & never has been!
If you're British, don't throw stones in glass houses, this countries past is shocking, rumours of deformed babies born into Royalty given away for adoption or even murdered?
You, like the Government are a bunch of fucking hypocrites!

[peejaye]

I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element

A good posting but are you calling it an act of terrorism because the accused are Russian? What if it were your country? I won't lecture you about some of the USA's past!
In all honesty; Do ANY of us know what's going on in Russia? The BBC have been proved of fake news, SKY is owned by Murdoch, I don't know how trustworthy CNN are?
I've always gone through life thinking people believe what they want to believe, that's why travel is the biggest education in life. My advice to anyone young or old is; Try it.

[broncofan]

I've always gone through life thinking people believe what they want to believe, that's why travel is the biggest education in life. My advice to anyone young or old is; Try it.
I haven't been to Russia, but what I think of Putin certainly doesn't reflect what I think of Russians, particularly given the way he's manipulated the power structures in Russia to benefit himself and does not serve at the will of the people. I acknowledge that the U.S. has committed many human rights violations, and while I can point out differences in them, it might sound like hair-splitting. Let me just say that if journalists and Democratic politicians were turning up dead here, it would be shocking and worrisome.

I just think your country has to consider the violation of its sovereignty more than the overall human rights record of other countries around the world. Is Putin allowed to order a hit on a target in Britain and carry it out in a way that threatens a lot of your citizens and not face any consequences?

[Stavros]

I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element, but this is always the speculation when someone turns up dead and it's convenient to the regime.

I find this problematic, because I am not sure that 'terrorism' is a crime in international law, but the description of an event that in reality is an act of war. If you consider the 9/11 attacks, although they were not carried out by a state, but a non-state actor called al-Qaeda, that organization declared war on the USA in 1998 and subsequently attacked US targets in East Africa and the Yemen, and for that reason the US defined al-Qaeda 'operatives' as enemy combatants and thus subject to the laws of war and thus, at Guantanamo Bay a military tribunal rather than a court of law, though even this is contested by some jurists and politicians.

Critical to this situation is that the weapon used in the attack is a nerve agent of which the production as well as the dispensation is illegal under international law, and it is not clear if a cell of terrorists could manufacture such an agent, whereas it is believed the Russians do indeed produce nerve agents which is why there has been a call for the UN agency to seek access to Russia to investigate their facilities. Even if it is proven that the Russians do not produce these agents, there is evidence that North Korea does and there is no reason to suppose they would not sell such agents to the Russians.

That the evidence points to Russia as a state is what raises the level here, and thus it must be considered an act of war, even if war itself is not formally declared, particularly as this is not the first time that it has happened. It is to my mind naive to suppose anyone not part of the Russian state machine could do this, while Putin's Russia may not be the USSR, he has done what he can to replicate much of its internal intelligence and security apparatus, with the ultimate point being who else wanted to eliminate Skripal?

[Stavros]

I see it as attempted murder & had we a sufficient Police & Intelligence service they could try & find the perpetrator and lock him up.
I'm convinced Vladimir Putin wasn't in Salisbury & never has been!
If you're British, don't throw stones in glass houses, this countries past is shocking, rumours of deformed babies born into Royalty given away for adoption or even murdered?
You, like the Government are a bunch of fucking hypocrites!

It is not about hypocrisy but the danger of the relative crimes you imply defeating any moral argument for a response. It is true that the UK has engaged in 'extra-judicial' killings abroad, most recently British citizens murdered in drone strikes in Syria, and non-British citizens in Afghanistan, but the UK government would defend these actions as 'self-defence' under the Charter of the UN. There was also the claim that the British Army had a 'shoot to kill' policy in Northern Ireland during the troubles, a claim that was always denied, but it could be argued the Provisional IRA and other paramilitary groups also had their own 'shoot to kill' policy suggesting that none of the people mentioned were on the right side of the law. And it was a civil war, and the participants were not afraid to say so.

You seem to me to be ignoring the flags that are waving in the wind -the identity of the victims who were clearly targeted; that the Russians have done this before; that they have used chemical and nerve agents as weapons even though -or because- they are volatile and unpredictable. It is not about a comparison of British and Russian methods of killing, but the precise nature of this case. I find it astonishing that you cannot seem to grasp how important the use of a nerve agent is, it takes warfare back 100 years to the Somme and Verdun, and forward to a future that we were supposed to make impossible, and bear in mind that using nerve agents or Polonium is what, one, two, three steps away from using Nuclear Weapons in a designated 'battlefield'?

You could argue that these are symbolic acts- as Russia resents the criticism of its support for the Asad regime and its use of chemical weapons in Syria, so it uses a chemical agent in the UK as a slap in the face; as they are aware that the US President when a candidate pondered using Nuclear Weapons and has threatened to destroy North Korea - so here is the proof that Russia too can be destructive if it wants to be. Behind all of this day-to-day provocation by Russia is the deeper problem that Putin wants Russia to be a great world power, to at least restore the glory days of the bi-polar world he grew up in when he joined the Communist Party and the KGB. In other words, when the US and the USSR 'ruled the world'. But he wants the world to take him seriously by using threats and violence, by taking revenge on the democracies he believes deceived him and Russia over Iraq and Libya and that fomented the unrest in the Ukraine which led to the Maidan Revolution and the prospect of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.

I have been to Russia, it is fascinating country with a wealth of cultural history and experience, the food is good, the people reasonably friendly -and all of the ones I spoke to loathed Putin and wanted to see him gone. And he will be gone one day, though nobody knows when or who will replace him. Between now and then the opportunity for destructive acts seems limitless, but there must be a way to restrain Russia, for where will all this violence lead us?

[peejaye]

Is Putin allowed to order a hit on a target in Britain and carry it out in a way that threatens a lot of your citizens and not face any consequences?

No he isn't & there's no proof that he has. I'm not going to keep banging my head against a wall so I won't.

[sukumvit boy]

I guess Theresa May and Parliament found the evidence against a Russian state sponsored hit convincing enough to expel 23 Russian diplomats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/britains-theresa-may-prepares-response-to-russian-spy-poisoning/2018/03/14/0a232d2c-26f5-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html?utm_term=.b7d2c2d095ce
Let us not forget that they tried to kill his daughter too !

[peejaye]

I guess Theresa May and Parliament found the evidence against a Russian state sponsored hit convincing enough to expel 23 Russian diplomats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/britains-theresa-may-prepares-response-to-russian-spy-poisoning/2018/03/14/0a232d2c-26f5-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html?utm_term=.b7d2c2d095ce
Let us not forget that they tried to kill his daughter too !

Please please please! We don't know what our depleted intelligence service finds out because this corrupt Government censor all of our news in this country. The UK as the most gullible people on the planet. That's why they get away with it.
This could possibly be a campaign by the Establishment to stabilise Theresa May in her battle against Corbyn for power? I hope Russia don't play her games and expel no diplomats in return!

[Stavros]

Please please please! We don't know what our depleted intelligence service finds out because this corrupt Government censor all of our news in this country. The UK as the most gullible people on the planet. That's why they get away with it.
This could possibly be a campaign by the Establishment to stabilise Theresa May in her battle against Corbyn for power? I hope Russia don't play her games and expel no diplomats in return!

Presumably you are not one of the 'most gullible people on the planet'? From what emerged yesterday both in Parliament and among the commentators, there are details about the incident which the government has not released to the public, but even if you don't believe a word of the government, ask yourself some pertinent questions:

1) who manufactured the precursors needed to create a nerve agent capable of causing such harm, and why has the British govt been so confident in identifying the agent used as derived from the Novichuk agents developed in the USSR in the 1970s?

2) If -the issue was raised yesterday in the Commons by Corbyn- the agents were made and used by persons unknown but not the Russian state, who are they? Are they Russians 'out of control' in a country where chemicals weapons 'if they exist' are among the most controlled in the country?

3) If the 'terrorists' are not Russian, who are they, and even if they wanted to implicate the Russians, how would they know that Skripal was a useful target and that he lived in Salisbury? If, for example they were Serbians paid by the Russian state or elements in the FSB to carry out the attack, they still needed to know who to attack and where they lived.

4) If it was a 'false flag' operation carried out by the British govt, why were the perpetrators so incompetent as to threaten the lives of innocent people?

Again, as I suggested yesterday, the Russians, already in the frame for the use of chemical weapons in Syria, are now deliberately merging the boundary between conventional and unconventional weapons, either because, like the Americans they want to use tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield of their choice, or to raise the stakes in order to force the Americans to 'come to the table' to negotiate much as the North Koreans successfully worked away at the US until it too caved in to their pressure to accept in principle the need for talks.

This is part of the campaign rolled out some years ago by Vladimir Putin; it is called: Make Russia Great Again!

-and no, they don't care how many people are killed to achieve it.

[peejaye]

You are the most patronising little man I have ever had the misfortune to come across! Just a mouthpiece for the BBC! Why bother??
This is looking more & more of a conspiracy against Corbyn every day that passes by? We know rubbish like you, the Tories & the Establishment are petrified of a left wing Government taking power. You despise working class people, you had the chance to get rid of these cunts but like the true "bottler" you are you voted Green! What a waste of a vote, all fucking mouth Mister.
We've got you rubbish over Brexit & you're determined we're not going to get you again!
Our day will come, try & shrink your BIG fucking head. I'm another of many sticking to the Escort section because of your drivel!
:fu:

[Stavros]

You are the most patronising little man I have ever had the misfortune to come across! Just a mouthpiece for the BBC! Why bother??
This is looking more & more of a conspiracy against Corbyn every day that passes by? We know rubbish like you, the Tories & the Establishment are petrified of a left wing Government taking power. You despise working class people, you had the chance to get rid of these cunts but like the true "bottler" you are you voted Green! What a waste of a vote, all fucking mouth Mister.
We've got you rubbish over Brexit & you're determined we're not going to get you again!
Our day will come, try & shrink your BIG fucking head. I'm another of many sticking to the Escort section because of your drivel!
:fu:

I think for myself, and use a variety of sources across the spectrum of opinion to form my own, in the hope of generating debate.

You can shout as much as you like, but your resort to insults tends to imply you don't think past your reactions to ask or answer serious questions, like what the nerve agent is that was used in Salisbury, where it came from, who delivered it, and why. Look at it this way, Peejaye, it is not weed killer. Take it from there.

[peejaye]

1063705

May couldn't give any proof of evidence to Jeremy Corbyn in PMQT yesterday & todays tabloids most preposterous anti-Corbyn propaganda we’ve seen so far! Coincidence?

FUCK OFF!

How stupid do you think the Russians are leaving so called proof everywhere!

[broncofan]

How stupid do you think the Russians are leaving so called proof everywhere!
We know the targets are people the Russian state would have been interested in. Do you think someone else targeted Skripal to try to make Russia look bad? Have they done it before? In fact, many times before using exotic materials that are very hard to come by?

[broncofan]

I'm another of many sticking to the Escort section because of your drivel!

Mate, who are the others? Are there a lot of people who agree with you on this? Your hypotheses just seem far-fetched.

[Stavros]

May couldn't give any proof of evidence to Jeremy Corbyn in PMQT yesterday & todays tabloids most preposterous anti-Corbyn propaganda we’ve seen so far! Coincidence?
FUCK OFF!
How stupid do you think the Russians are leaving so called proof everywhere!

Welcome back, Comrade. I don't know why Mrs May said what she said, I suspect she was under pressure to make a statement and take active measures before the various medical and forensic teams have completed their work,, which may take months.

Intelligence now believe the nerve agent may have been planted in Russia-
Senior sources have told the Telegraph that they are convinced the Novichok nerve agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent’s 33-year-old daughter.

They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her father.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/15/suitcase-spy-poisoning-plot-nerve-agent-planted-luggage-sergei/
(Paywall)

[sukumvit boy]

I think for myself, and use a variety of sources across the spectrum of opinion to form my own, in the hope of generating debate.

You can shout as much as you like, but your resort to insults tends to imply you don't think past your reactions to ask or answer serious questions, like what the nerve agent is that was used in Salisbury, where it came from, who delivered it, and why. Look at it this way, Peejaye, it is not weed killer. Take it from there.
1063730

[filghy2]

I'm another of many sticking to the Escort section because of your drivel!
:fu:

Yeah right! You've made 11 posts in the last 2 days on this topic alone. You keep saying you are not going to waste time arguing with him, so why not just do it?

[Stavros]

Further to my post earlier, Mark Urban on BBC-2's Newsnight claims the luggage theory is weak because traces of the nerve agent were not found in the Skripal house -making the family car the primary source- though that cannot rule out a package in the luggage, say a gift not being opened in the house -? Also 46 people were treated in hospitals in the area with the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning and police think over 100 may have been subjected to mild doses, so there is clearly more to come from the investigations.

[peejaye]

Yeah right! You've made 11 posts in the last 2 days on this topic alone. You keep saying you are not going to waste time arguing with him, so why not just do it?

There you go again! Mr Finger waver...who the fuck are you? Apart from Stavros' fucking poodle. I know your the one ticking all of his postings, you got nothing better to do?
I'd love to come face to face with you.

[peejaye]

Welcome back, Comrade. I don't know why Mrs May said what she said, I suspect she was under pressure to make a statement and take active measures before the various medical and forensic teams have completed their work,, which may take months.

Intelligence now believe the nerve agent may have been planted in Russia-
Senior sources have told the Telegraph that they are convinced the Novichok nerve agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent’s 33-year-old daughter.

They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her father.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/15/suitcase-spy-poisoning-plot-nerve-agent-planted-luggage-sergei/
(Paywall)

FUCK ME! You mean there's something out there you DON'T actually have the answer to?
There's a first time for everything. I mean you've even tried to educate me on my hobby of 35 years, you gunna tell me how to brew beer next?
It's understandable why you throw stones at Putin everyday.
I mean..... LOOK at our Leader & look at him. You must be so jealous? Speak to Russian people and ask them what they want. A STRONG leader is what they reply.
As I say, look at ours, fucks sake!
I will sign off for good now, I will leave you and your little poodle to educate & insult the great unwashed & gullible on here.:violin

[peejaye]

Mate, who are the others? Are there a lot of people who agree with you on this? Your hypotheses just seem far-fetched.

Bronco; You would have to live over here to understand fully what I mean. Jeremy Corbyn will not be allowed to govern this country. If it looks like he's sweeping to power just before the General Election he will be "took out" by the Intelligence service! Russia is just another thorn in their side! Taking out a Russian & his daughter is nothing to what they WOULD do! They knew how Corbyn would react to it.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=peejaye;1828202

It's understandable why you throw stones at Putin everyday.
--Hmm let's see...rigged elections; Alexander Litvinenko; Boris Nemstov; Alexei Navalny; Mikhail Khodorskovsky; the Crimea; eastern Ukraine and the bombing of Malaysian Airlines 17; Chechnya; Georgia and the fake republics of Abkhazia and Transnistria; Syria and the indiscriminate bombing of schools, hospitals and residential districts; money laundering; interfering in foreign elections- and that's just for starters...
He doesn't inspire respect in me, sorry about that.

I mean..... LOOK at our Leader & look at him. You must be so jealous?
Theresa May is not our leader, we don't have leaders in the UK. We have a head of state, and a Prime Minister and a Parliament. I am not a supporter of the Tories or Mrs May, but if you look at the party forming our government, the choice after her is substantially worse, unless you want your Brexit pals to 'lead us' into the sunlit uplands of 'independence'.
Jealousy is an infantile emotion.

Speak to Russian people and ask them what they want. A STRONG leader is what they reply
-The last time I was in Russia, in 2013, I did speak to Russians and the Russians I spoke to loathed and detested Putin, and that was in his 'home city' of St Petersburg.

[Stavros]

Bronco; You would have to live over here to understand fully what I mean. Jeremy Corbyn will not be allowed to govern this country. If it looks like he's sweeping to power just before the General Election he will be "took out" by the Intelligence service! Russia is just another thorn in their side! Taking out a Russian & his daughter is nothing to what they WOULD do! They knew how Corbyn would react to it.

What hysterical rubbish. I would not be surprised if Corbyn did become Prime Minister, the Murdoch Press and the Mail failed to make any impression in the last election, and as most people in the UK are more concerned with domestic issues than, for example, Brexit or Russia, Labour is in a strong position. Corbyn's primary enemy is himself. He came across in the Commons debate as someone who preferred to criticize the government rather than express solidarity with it, because he can't stomach the thought, let alone the expression of solidarity the occasion required, he really is that narrow-minded. He was right about the impact of austerity and cuts to the diplomatic service, but he will never stand aside a Tory unless he is forced to, as happened in Batley and Spen when he was standing next to Cameron and looked as if he had been, well, poisoned...the irony is that Theresa May's position, for the time being has been strengthened by the Russian attack, but when that subsides and we get back to Brexit, she will be looking over her shoulder with some anxiety as the maniacs reach for their blades. Hard to know who is most vulnerable -May or Corbyn?

[Jericho]

[QUOTE=peejaye;1828202

It's understandable why you throw stones at Putin everyday.
--Hmm let's see...rigged elections; Alexander Litvinenko; Boris Nemstov; Alexei Navalny; Mikhail Khodorskovsky; the Crimea; eastern Ukraine and the bombing of Malaysian Airlines 17; Chechnya; Georgia and the fake republics of Abkhazia and Transnistria; Syria and the indiscriminate bombing of schools, hospitals and residential districts; money laundering; interfering in foreign elections- and that's just for starters...
He doesn't inspire respect in me, sorry about that..

Billy Joel should have left it alone.
I don't much care for the, "We didn't start the fire", reboot! :shrug


This thread's turning into a bit of a wild ride! :hide-1:
:dead:

[broncofan]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/nikolai-glushkov-russia-exile-murdered-london-neck-compression-alexander-litvinenko-boris-berezovsky-a8259611.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter

Breaking news: Another false flag, compressed upon Nikolai Glushkov's neck. The Russian government are the unluckiest victims of serial framing in the history of the world.

I listened to Jeremy Corbyn in the Commons and here's the issue I have. He is careful not to say what his supporters are saying, for instance, the false flag hypotheses or the claim by Seumas Milne that the intelligence services' failures during Iraq cast doubt on any conclusion they make. But Jeremy's statements are always conspicuous by what they don't say. It is the tone and the gestalt that paints a very different picture from what is going on.

Here's the test: if one were completely unaware of what has gone on in the last fifteen years and listened to both Corbyn and May, whose speech would have better informed them about the nature and seriousness of what Russia has done? I would probably disagree with most of May's domestic policy proposals, but Jeremy seemed to need to find some way to distinguish himself from her by planting subtle little strawmen. For instance, the claim that there is a McCarthyite intolerance of dissent, or the idea that the west is looking for confrontation with Putin.

Corbyn's supporters will often post excerpts of his speeches and say, "what is wrong with that. Why is the Tory press attacking him?" It's because the picture he paints is not consistent with reality, in a hundred different ways. Then you look at people who have historically supported him or been allies of his, like Livingstone, going on RT to insinuate there was maybe a false flag, and it makes one wonder what motivates Corbyn's slightly peculiar responses.

And Peejaye, I have nothing against you, but not everyone who dislikes Corbyn is a liar or has some special interest. That assumption makes his movement look a bit cult-like.

[broncofan]

[QUOTE=Stavros;1828241]I don't much care for the, "We didn't start the fire", reboot! :shrug

Very funny. I now can't read that post w/o that tune. No truth to the rumor Jeremy wanted to call it "they didn't start the fire."

[Jericho]

[QUOTE=Jericho;1828262]
Very funny. I now can't read that post w/o that tune.

My work here is Done! :hide-1:

[Jericho]

but not everyone who dislikes Corbyn is a liar or has some special interest. That assumption makes his movement look a bit cult-like.

Here's one of the reasons the Corbynistas are so 'rabid' sometimes.

One of the BBC's flagship political news programs, Newsnight, had this as a backdrop during a recent discussion.

1063905

So much for neutrality!

[broncofan]

Here's one of the reasons the Corbynistas are so 'rabid' sometimes.

One of the BBC's flagship political news programs, Newsnight, had this as a backdrop during a recent discussion.

1063905

So much for neutrality!
You're right. That's not a neutral image that's a partisan image.

But we have to ask what kind of look he's trying to affect with that hat. I found it in a slightly different shade https://www.ebay.com/i/122336404395?chn=ps&dispItem=1 And for women:) https://www.amazon.com/Hula-Girl-Ushanka-Russian-Removable/dp/B00WWEDNME

[Jericho]

But we have to ask what kind of look he's trying to affect with that hat.

Well, before it became "hat of choice" for the Allfather, we just used to call them twatcaps! :shrug

[peejaye]

You're right. That's not a neutral image that's a partisan image.

But we have to ask what kind of look he's trying to affect with that hat. I found it in a slightly different shade https://www.ebay.com/i/122336404395?chn=ps&dispItem=1 And for women:) https://www.amazon.com/Hula-Girl-Ushanka-Russian-Removable/dp/B00WWEDNME

This is just scratching the surface! This is why you guys overseas should NEVER ever believe what the BBC report on Politics in this country. There Chief Political Editor is a member of the Tory Party!

[Stavros]

This is just scratching the surface! This is why you guys overseas should NEVER ever believe what the BBC report on Politics in this country. There Chief Political Editor is a member of the Tory Party!

Welcome back, comrade. Perhaps you can explain why your Brexit chums like UKIP and its former leader Nigel Farage regard the BBC as a left-wing organization fully committed to the implementation of Marxism's Common Purpose...?

[filghy2]

[URL] Corbyn's supporters will often post excerpts of his speeches and say, "what is wrong with that. Why is the Tory press attacking him?" It's because the picture he paints is not consistent with reality, in a hundred different ways. Then you look at people who have historically supported him or been allies of his, like Livingstone, going on RT to insinuate there was maybe a false flag, and it makes one wonder what motivates Corbyn's slightly peculiar responses.

What I find bizarre about this is that there is nothing left-wing about the Putin regime, which is characterised by crony capitalism, ethno-nationalism and social conservatism. Putin has far more in common with Trump and the right-wing governments of Hungary and Poland than with Corbyn and his supporters. It's as if these people can't move beyond the reflexive reactions they learnt in their youth when Russia was communist.

[filghy2]

This is just scratching the surface! This is why you guys overseas should NEVER ever believe what the BBC report on Politics in this country. There Chief Political Editor is a member of the Tory Party!

Out of idle curiosity I googled this claim and could not find a shred of evidence for it. The most I could find is that she was once listed as an invited speaker at a conservative conference fringe event, but the invitation was refused.

[broncofan]

It's as if these people can't move beyond the reflexive reactions they learnt in their youth when Russia was communist.
I agree. It's almost as if the identity of the parties involved matter more than principles and facts. Even if Russia were still a communist country, they either had a hand in poisoning a former spy or they didn't. But as you say, there is nothing left-wing about the Putin regime.

Is there a possibility of some sort of frame-up or false flag? I swear to God if there is ever a large-scale false flag that fools most honest people and then is revealed we are going to be paying for it for the next hundred years. It would legitimize infowars and their ilk to some people.

To avoid outlier views on twitter I've ignored those with fewer than 3000 followers and I've still heard bizarre theories, from the number of different countries who could have been involved to the hypothesis that maybe novichok wasn't even used. I still haven't heard the definitive view on whether Corbyn's hat in that image has been altered to make it more Russian, as though it needed the help.

Out of generosity I was going to point out all the differences between Trump and Corbyn, of which there are many, but Corbyn's ineffectiveness is especially dangerous because of whatever the hell is going on with Trump, which is not mere ineffectiveness.

[filghy2]

Is there a possibility of some sort of frame-up or false flag? I swear to God if there is ever a large-scale false flag that fools most honest people and then is revealed we are going to be paying for it for the next hundred years. It would legitimize infowars and their ilk to some people.


I think the key question here concerns motive - who gains? It's obvious that the Russians had a motive to kill this guy, and they have plenty of form in that regard. I find it very hard to see who would gain sufficiently from provoking a dispute with Russia at a time when the UK is going through a messy divorce with the EU and we have a US president who is averse to taking firm action against Russia. Also, you have to wonder about the role of Russia in promoting these conspiracy theories, given they also have form in that area.

[peejaye]

For anyone genuinely interested of a non-Establishment point of view, self confessed Conservative Peter Hitchins writes;

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/03/peter-hitchens-the-patriotic-thought-police-came-for-corbyn-you-are-next.html

[broncofan]

For anyone genuinely interested of a non-Establishment point of view, self confessed Conservative Peter Hitchins writes;

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/03/peter-hitchens-the-patriotic-thought-police-came-for-corbyn-you-are-next.html
I read this article earlier. Did you consider him non-establishment before he wrote this article? What qualifies someone as establishment except that they disagree with Corbyn?

[peejaye]

You are so far away from the truth with that comment, I'm not even going to begin! As you seem to be swallowing all the garbage on here' I'll leave you to it.
Peter Hitchins is a realist, he lives in the same world as me as some cunts on here clearly don't, saying that about someone who's as opposite to me on politics is hard to swallow!
If you lived here Bronco, you might understand what the fucks happening. I'd love to know more about US politics but I would never ask some fanatic whose not a US citizen anything about it!
BEWARE & good luck!

[broncofan]

I find the article full of strawmen as well. If someone takes a position where they do not seem to acknowledge the evidence indicating Russia engaged in an act of war people will question whether they will take the appropriate actions to defend their country. That does not reflect an intolerance of dissent.

Believing that Russian diplomats should be expelled does not signify a desire to restart the cold war or to start wwiii, namely because it would be an appropriate response regardless of which country engaged in that conduct. And people who disagree with Russian policy do not loathe Russia or its people. The things Russia has done in the U.S. have been carefully documented and their history of assassinations of journalists and dissidents is worthy of condemnation. If you do not appear to respond forcefully to this act of war and then one of your oldest allies appears on Russian state tv insinuating it may have been your own government it will raise eyebrows. Just my take.

[broncofan]

Peter Hitchins is a realist, he lives in the same world as me as some cunts on here clearly don't, saying that about someone who's as opposite to me on politics is hard to swallow!

The reason I asked is because being establishment seems to disqualify them from having a view, regardless of whether it's consistent with the facts. I just wanted to know what the criteria is for considering someone establishment. From time to time I will agree with people I've historically disagreed with. I don't see why people's affiliation and upbringing and all these labels should mediate whether what they're saying is true.

[broncofan]

Peter Hitchins is a realist, he lives in the same world as me as some cunts on here clearly don't, saying that about someone who's as opposite to me on politics is hard to swallow!
BEWARE & good luck!
I'm not attacking you. I'm saying I don't find the use of establishment to be one that can be consistently applied or that tells us anything anyway. It might not be that hard to say that about him given that he agrees with you on this issue. I think it's somewhat similar to what they call the "strange new respect" formulation in this country....

[peejaye]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Establishment

Look under United Kingdom, hope it helps.

[Stavros]

For anyone genuinely interested of a non-Establishment point of view, self confessed Conservative Peter Hitchins writes;
l (http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/03/peter-hitchens-the-patriotic-thought-police-came-for-corbyn-you-are-next.html)

I wonder how a 'self-confessed conservative' who spent his teenage years in Tony Cliff's 'revolutionary' IS before abandoning Trotskyism for the Labour Party, which he left in 1983 before becoming besotted with Margaret Thatcher, ended up in the Daily Mail, which is an establishment of cranks all to itself, having a long history of backing losers, like one Adolf Hitler in those now-forgotten days.

If Jeremy Corbyn is to be admired as a man of principle, why did he spent most of his career arguing that the UK should leave the EU, only and grudgingly accepting the Social Chapter of the Single Market Act in 1987 knowing the UK under a Labour govt could (and should) make legal all those rights if it wasn't in the EU? He could have said in the EU Referendum 'I have always argued the UK should leave the EU and do so again today' only of course he was more or less invisible throughout the campaign. He has since led the Labour Party to vote in favour of almost every government proposal on Brexit, always claiming he is doing so to honour the referendum not to join with the Tories. The truth is he doesn't care about Europe or the EU, his priority is a form of socialism in one country that is little different from the economic nationalism that is making the US an international troublemaker with who knows what consequences? And like the current US administration, his intention in addressing the domestic economy and its problems is to borrow billions without knowing when or how it will be paid back. As Dick Cheney said: deficits don't matter.

As for the foreign policy issues Christopher Hitchens younger brother jumps into a swamp of victims, all of them cast into the dump by the wicked west. On this scenario, the Maidan Revolution in the Ukraine was Made in the USA, as if the people of Ukraine were not fed up with one corrupt President after another looting the country's wealth and giving nothing back in return. No, apparently these are the people who, when Hillary Clinton said 'revolt!' jumped out of their seats as if to say 'why didn't we think of that before?'.

As for Libya, the ignorance is astounding. I think it was 1997 or 1998 when I asked a Libyan colleague what would happen if Qadhafi died tomorrow. I remember him shaking his head and saying 'terrible things', and went on to explain how many people who had suffered under his regime would exact retribution. The west had a dilemma in 2011, as Qadhafi was preparing to launch an assault on the Benghazi region with a violence that would have been similar to that we have seen inflicted on people in Syria and Egypt. The simple truth is that Libya was already on the verge of collapse when the Arab Spring created the conditions for Qadhafi's demise. That Libya, as with Syria, crushed all forms of civil society guaranteeing social chaos after the collapse of the totalitarian govt was always part of the plan, as dictators throughout the centuries have declared Après moi, le déluge.

As for Libya, when in Hitchens' wordsthe Libyan adventure created the unending migration crisis across Europe you wonder what planet this moron is living on. The refugee crisis was created by failed states in Syria and Libya, but the majority of refugee and bogus asylum seekers entered Europe through Turkey with the connivance of the Turkish goverment. Hitchens has been out of touch for years, in a trivial example he once wondered why anyone would kick a ball around a field for 90 minutes, oblivious to the fact that millions of men and women, boys and girls do just that every Sunday morning.

So there you are, poor old Russia, the victim of this smear and that, the victim of western aggression and misunderstanding, the fall guy for the western world's endless pursuit of world domination.

You find this drivel in the Mail on Sunday for a reason.

[peejaye]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/hold-the-bbc-to-account-for-it-s-smear-campaign-on-jeremy-corbyn

[Stavros]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/hold-the-bbc-to-account-for-it-s-smear-campaign-on-jeremy-corbyn

Alexander Litvinenko was a victim; Sergei Skripal and his daughter are victims. Corbyn is not a victim. He is the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition in the House of Commons.

[sukumvit boy]

Excellent BBC Newsnight interview with Mikhail Khodorkovsky ,former Russian oligarch who in 2003 was thought to be the "richest man in Russia ".
He says that ,if asked a few years ago whether Putin was behind the attempted assassination of Skripal and his daughter he would have said undoubtedly ,yes. But now he believes that in certain affairs Putin is a "puppet" controlled by a gang of rich and powerful businessmen and gangsters who are calling the shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA8x_ozvtqo

[Stavros]

I saw the interview with Khodorkovsky at the time and was not impressed. It is fairly well known how the Russian mafia emerged during Soviet times and took advantage of the breakdown in law and order in the 1990s, and that it has become useful to a diverse group of people with or without connections to the highest levels to the state, blurring the lines when it comes to activities like money laundering. And I don't doubt they like London because it is a relatively easy place in which to live, though I note too that the richer the Russia the greater the likelihood that they never go anywhere without a bodyguard or two, being most in danger from other Russians, rather like the tepid drama that was on the BBC recently, McMafia -based on a factual account of crime and politics in Russia by Misha Glenny. I don't know how anyone can live like that, but I guess they are used to it. All that money for so little personal freedom.

I don't see how this can prove Putin is either isolated or controlled in the way Khodorkvsky implies. On one level Putin cannot know everything that happens beneath him, and may approve of some things that do, such as the murder of Litvinenko and if he doesn't then he has the power to deal with those responsible. The point is he is the Head of State and we are always being told how powerful he is. That in reality he may not be so powerful does not remove the point that he is ultimately responsible even if his government is riddled with crooks. It was as if Khodorkovsky was trying to find a reason to excuse the man who almost ruined his life. But then it may also be a benefit to Russia that Khodorkovsky's political ambitions were crushed, even if his prison term was an excess of punishment, albeit done to prove to anyone else the risks of challenging Putin's grip on power.

[peejaye]

I'd just like to congratulate Vladimir on his Landslide victory & giving the 77% of Russian citizens what they wanted. :claps :peanutbutter

His intolerance to "do-gooders" for me makes him The Worlds most powerful man. How about that COMRADE !

[Jericho]

Another view of recent events.
another angry voice (https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/how-is-it-possible-to-think-theresa-may.html)

[Stavros]

Another view of recent events.
another angry voice (https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/how-is-it-possible-to-think-theresa-may.html)

Some good, concise points in this link (esp. on Williamson and Johnson) -but offers no alternative to the origin and use of the nerve agent used in Salisbury.

[Stavros]

I'd just like to congratulate Vladimir on his Landslide victory & giving the 77% of Russian citizens what they wanted.
His intolerance to "do-gooders" for me makes him The Worlds most powerful man. How about that COMRADE !

This has to be satire. And I thought 'do-gooders' were the kind of bleeding heart residents of Islington who vote Labour? Hw is your campaign against the Bolshevik Broadcasting Company proceeding?

[filghy2]

I'd just like to congratulate Vladimir on his Landslide victory & giving the 77% of Russian citizens what they wanted.

At the risk of sounding like a cliche, if things are so good in Russia and so bad in the UK then why don't you migrate to Russia? Maybe you could claim political asylum as a member of a political movement being suppressed by a deep state conspiracy.

Given one of Putin's main claims to success is that he turned around the economy after the post-Soviet collapse, it's interesting that the Russian economy has been stagnant since the previous election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia

Could the economy be Putin's achilles heel, as it was for the Soviet Union in the end? The combination of a military build-up, confrontation with the West, rampant corruption and political repression is hardly the recipe for a dynamic economy. In addition, privatisation has been reversed under Putin and the state now controls 3/4 of the economy according to this article - again, not a recipe for a dynamic economy. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/russia-economic-stagnation-structural-reform-by-konstantin-sonin-2018-02

[peejaye]

I'm going to take your advice as you "trolled" & stay away from you two maniacs. I've seen the drivel on other threads you two idiots are wallowing in.
You can stick all these far right websites up your arses, I've lived in Russia on & off for six years & I'm far more qualified than you will ever be on what's happening there. I spoke with my "ex" only yesterday.
Personally, I'm more concerned about sorting the country out where I live although it's so far gone now it's becoming impossible.
You two should be propping up a fucking flyover somewhere!

[Stavros]

I'm going to take your advice as you "trolled" & stay away from you two maniacs. I've seen the drivel on other threads you two idiots are wallowing in.
You can stick all these far right websites up your arses, I've lived in Russia on & off for six years & I'm far more qualified than you will ever be on what's happening there. I spoke with my "ex" only yesterday.
Personally, I'm more concerned about sorting the country out where I live although it's so far gone now it's becoming impossible.
You two should be propping up a fucking flyover somewhere!

I have not linked any 'far right websites' so I would appreciate a list. It is a pity that you don't set aside your anger and debate the issues with at least some evidence to hand, even if the evidence in this case has yet to be published in full for reasons that the government must know.

I also want to see concrete action taken to address the problems we have in the UK, but do not see them as impossible to deal with, that is the cry of the desperate who are inclined to reject the existing mechanisms we have in this flawed democracy as being part of the problem, and thus call for more 'drastic measures' which will only make things worse. It goes without saying that Brexit remains the greatest opportunity or threat to our future, and you know on which side of the fence I am.

It is also the case that in the aftermath of Napoleon's domination of French politics many Europeans believed France could only be run by a dictator; the same fear was expressed of Germany after 1945; and again of the USSR when Stalin died -and since, and enough Russians seem to agree to enable the latest version to run in an election unopposed. Putin saw the way in which the USSR 'deteriorated' into a Russia run by party apparratchiks suddenly awash in cash, gangsters, foreign investors -some legal, some not- and how Russia's international profile appeared to decline, and one can at least understand his desire to clean up the yard.

Except he has not 'drained the swamp' so much as deepened it, while engaging in foreign adventures that prove how influential Russia can be and that have drawn admiration from people who should know better. But this influence has lumbered Russia with a commitment to Syria that shows no sign of ending, and is thus as potentially damaging as the USSR's 'assistance' to the Communist regime in Afghanistan in 1980.

Now may be the time for Russians to ask how much longer their military is going to remain in Syria. Bashar al-Asad is in effect, dependent on the Russians for his personal safety and that of his family business, aka the Syria Government. But the war is not over, Syria has been invaded by Turkey which has occupied Afrin and will use it as a base to harass if not exterminate as many Kurdish 'terrorists' as it can, using former members of al-Qaeda and Daesh to do it. What is Russia or NATO going to about this? Syria is ungovernable as a country, the cost of re-building shattered towns and cities runs in the Billions -are the Russians going to pay for that while their economy is unable to grow because of the country's interference in the domestic affairs of Europe and the US?

Russia has attacked the west because it wants to break up NATO, the EU seeing these processes as a means whereby it can regain the super-power status it once had. But in doing so with the actions it is taking, it is alienating itself from the very people who would rather Russia was our friend and partner, because for all my criticism of the Putin regime, I want to live in a world where I can visit St Petersburg any time I like and not be worried about some political spat making it a risky trip -and I think that is what the Russians want too.

[peejaye]

1064515

[buttslinger]

As an American, I'm qualified to talk about Trump, even if I'm not qualified. It's my Constitutional Right!!!
But I can't talk about England, I remember when Liberty Harkness and her TS-Friend used to talk "Benny Hill English" and I couldn't understand a word they said.
If PeeJaye gets tired of arguing, it'll get pretty boring around here, I don't even go on Twitter, the back and forth there is so intoxicating, I might get lost in there like the Bermuda Triangle and waste even more of my already wasted days........sigh.

[filghy2]

I'm going to take your advice as you "trolled" & stay away from you two maniacs. I've seen the drivel on other threads you two idiots are wallowing in.
You can stick all these far right websites up your arses, I've lived in Russia on & off for six years & I'm far more qualified than you will ever be on what's happening there. I spoke with my "ex" only yesterday.
Personally, I'm more concerned about sorting the country out where I live although it's so far gone now it's becoming impossible.
You two should be propping up a fucking flyover somewhere!

You really are degenerating into a self-parody. Surely you are not going to let down all of your devoted followers here by depriving them of your incisive commentary. With so many far right websites like Wikipedia and Project Syndicate spreading misinformation about the peoples' hero they need you more than ever. Assuming this final farewell lasts as long as previous ones, perhaps you could start by sharing your list of approved information sources that are not 'far right'.

[Stavros]

But I can't talk about England,

In fact not only are you free to discuss England, and indeed, the UK, I think you should as sometimes people who don't live here may ask questions we have not thought of asking, and make comments that tell us something we did not know that perhaps we should have. I don't even think you need to have visited, though I am sure you have. As for Benny Hill...I did not understand him either, but I put that down to his Hampshire burr and the possibility that anyone who lives in Southampton for any length of time will by a process of osmosis become unintelligible, even to themselves, it is that kind of town.

[buttslinger]

[QUOTE=Stavros;1829191]In fact not only are you free to discuss England....QUOTE]

No, I mean in the US you have to make a real effort to know what's going on around the world, they just don't cover the outside world on the news, people turn the channel. Even the Newspaper only has a couple pages now, unless it's a Giant Tsunami or a Brexit, nothing. They've covered the poisoning, but only briefly. Like when Trump congratulates Putin on his election.
I only got to London once, if you're tired of London, you're tired of living, I loved it. Fucking EXPENSIVE, though.

[peejaye]

Surprise surprise, our right wing friends haven't bothered sharing this with you all !
You guys over the pond; You think you've got problems with Trump, we've got this "full weight warmongering cunt" to deal with.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/mar/21/boris-johnson-compares-russian-world-cup-to-hitlers-1936-olympics

[peejaye]

It goes without saying that Brexit remains the greatest opportunity or threat to our future, and you know on which side of the fence I am.


For you privileged few, maybe? What about the 1 in 20, YES; one in fucking twenty people in this country without a roof over their heads, homeless people? I don't think they're losing much too sleep at night whittling about your millionaires club. Probably freezing, wet through & living in fear of some far right cunt kicking them half to death!
Fucking Public schoolboy! :puke

[peejaye]

Should of read " 1 in 200 people", deliberate mistake..... :banghead

[peejaye]

1064956

[filghy2]

You managed to stay away for almost 2 days this time, so you're making progress. Have you been on a bender to celebrate the 're-election' of Czar Vladimir I Hero of the People?

[peejaye]

You managed to stay away for almost 2 days this time, so you're making progress. Have you been on a bender to celebrate the 're-election' of Czar Vladimir I Hero of the People?

Well I couldn't figure out whether it would make you happy me staying away? I couldn't possibly live with that so I decided to play it safe & have my say. Also, with just you and your mentor on here it would be like listening to the fucking BBC all day long!

[peejaye]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-a-categorical-liar/

[peejaye]

For those that only watch the BBC news, this headline story on Independent television was omitted from BBC bulletins yesterday, probably in support of the Tory Government? ......proving the Foreign Secretary lied to the British public about the nerve agent found in Salisbury. This bunch of corrupt vermin make Putin & The Kremlin look like Florence Nightingale!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/salisbury-poisoning-russia-novichok-nerve-agent-porton-down-proof-evidence-mod-latest-a8286761.html

[trish]

(https://www.unian.info/world/10069376-uk-locates-source-of-novichok-nerve-agent-used-in-salisbury-the-times.html)https://www.unian.info/world/10069376-uk-locates-source-of-novichok-nerve-agent-used-in-salisbury-the-times.html

Security services believe they have pinpointed the location of the covert Russian laboratory that manufactured the weapons-grade nerve agent used in Salisbury.

[Stavros]

For those that only watch the BBC news, this headline story on Independent television was omitted from BBC bulletins yesterday, probably in support of the Tory Government? ......proving the Foreign Secretary lied to the British public about the nerve agent found in Salisbury. This bunch of corrupt vermin make Putin & The Kremlin look like Florence Nightingale!


The point at issue is that Boris Johnson claimed Porton Down had identified Russia as the source of the nerve agent when, as the article you linked shows, the official in charge at Porton Down said no such thing; a contradiction that was broadcast on the BBC Radio 4 yesterday. Gary Aitkenhead said

“We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to the government who have then used a number of other sources,” some of them intelligence-based.

It is typical of your Brexit boyo to make up whatever he thinks will make him sound well-informed and capable of leading the United Kingdom as its fourth Anglo-American Prime Minister, on any other occasion he would either have been sacked or forced to resign by now.

It appears that Yulia Skripal is now awake, talking and that her health is improving. Whether or not she can reveal how she and her father were poisoned we must wait to find out. If anything, it confirms yet again how risky chemical weapons are for all involved.

It is a pity for Salisbury, which is a pleasant if bland little town with an over-rated cathedral, and an under-rated bakery (but not in the town) run by the Snell family which makes a strawberry gateau that is beyond description and deserves a place in the list of the Seven Wonders of the British Isles.

[peejaye]

You should crawl back under the stone someone dislodged.
I'm sure the Skripals will swear blind they saw Vladimir Putin on the front door step the day before it happened with the BBC at the front of the gullible queue of cunts waiting to inform the even more gullible public.
Fucking strawberry gateau...... enough said!

[peejaye]

Clearly; Your absence from this forum whilst taking medication for your Brexit obsession didn't work ! :D
Live with it. No longer subsidizing you baskets and your wealthy friends gives me much pleasure.

[Stavros]

Fucking strawberry gateau...... enough said!

Peejaye, do yourself a favour. I am sure you can get from Doncaster to Southampton by train then take a bus to Salisbury. The Strawberry Gateau will be worth it, and you can even share one slice -it looks like the corner of a wall but has the texture of your sweetheart's breath- with your latest flame, and swoon with delight. If you are diabetic, it is a great way to die, though that would not be my intention.

[Stavros]

Clearly; Your absence from this forum whilst taking medication for your Brexit obsession didn't work ! :D
Live with it. No longer subsidizing you baskets and your wealthy friends gives me much pleasure.

I am on medication on a daily basis these days, and grateful to the NHS for it. I am not sure what the rest of your post means as I have but the one basket for occasional detritus, though I do recall my mother taking evening classes in basket weaving in the early 1960s -she also did carpentry- and enjoying it very much. The Russians it seems, weave more complex and tangled structures, and not very well. At some point in the future we may even know what the truth is, bearing in mind that for many years the truth, aka Pravda, was a newspapers of lies edited by a liar called Lenin.

[peejaye]

Why the fuck are you even on this website? :ignore:




:Bowdown:

[peejaye]

Peejaye, do yourself a favour. I am sure you can get from Doncaster to Southampton by train then take a bus to Salisbury. The Strawberry Gateau will be worth it, and you can even share one slice -it looks like the corner of a wall but has the texture of your sweetheart's breath- with your latest flame, and swoon with delight. If you are diabetic, it is a great way to die, though that would not be my intention.

A Public schoolboy like you probably thinks people like me have never set foot in Salisbury, I've actually being incapacitated there many times in the Hop Back brewery pub drinking "Summer Lightning" although thanks to you cunts & EU policy I can't afford the £218 return train fare now.
& why I would go to Southampton first is anyones' guess?
We do have delicatessens in Yorkshire! Not that you would know.

[Stavros]

Why the fuck are you even on this website? :ignore:


Oh I don't know, maybe because I have been attracted to transgendered women since around 1968 even if I did not have my first experience until five years after that. I am also interested in politics, as you might have noticed. I don't query your right to be here, even I sometimes find your arguments are not robust, but I am not Einstein either.

[Stavros]

A Public schoolboy like you probably thinks people like me have never set foot in Salisbury, I've actually being incapacitated there many times in the Hop Back brewery pub drinking "Summer Lightning" although thanks to you cunts & EU policy I can't afford the £218 return train fare now.
& why I would go to Southampton first is anyones' guess?
We do have delicatessens in Yorkshire! Not that you would know.

Even worse than you think -state school -but left at 16-, first in my family to go to university (I will spare you the ID of all three of them in case you choke with derisory laughter), and not the kind of person who drinks in pubs, unless I am obliged to if there is nowhere else to watch a Champions League match, at least they have banned smoking.

I assumed you can't get to Salisbury direct by train so would change at Southampton but you seem to know how to do it, and may even have been to Snell's. The alternative is a bicycle, I guess it would take three days from Yorkshire.

In the meantime, though their cat and two guinea pigs have been put down, both the Skripal's are in improving health, which is good news for them, and which will make for interesting times ahead, particularly if we -other than Peejaye- have all been fooled. But maybe they don't know how it happened, in which case the mystery may never be solved to anyone's satisfaction.

[peejaye]

which will make for interesting times ahead

Are you serious? I can write you the story now! I'll give you a clue..... magic money tree? Bank accounts, the BBC..... :whistle:
One serious question; Do you really think those 2 would be alive & able to talk if the Russians had been involved?
I know you big Establishment people believe what you want to believe but please.....

[peejaye]

Why us? :smh

1067782

[bluesoul]

Why us? :smh

1067782

because... you like it?

[Jericho]

Just to muddy the waters (https://skwawkbox.org/2018/04/06/skripal-caruana-malta-ca-connection-holes-govts-only-plausible-suspect-claim-below-waterline/).

[Stavros]

Are you serious? I can write you the story now! I'll give you a clue..... magic money tree? Bank accounts, the BBC..... :whistle:
One serious question; Do you really think those 2 would be alive & able to talk if the Russians had been involved?
I know you big Establishment people believe what you want to believe but please.....

The apparent recovery of the Skripal's -though we do not know if or how they may have been damaged in the long term- was possible because the first responders and the NHS staff acted quickly enough to deal with the worst effects of the nerve agent used. It is also the case that 'chemical weapons' are volatile and unreliable which is why they have not become standard military grade weapons. The 1928 law that outlawed the use of chemical and biological weapons followed their use in the First World War though clearly government have continued to develop them and the Syrians have, with Russian assistance used them against their enemies in the civil war. But they remain difficult to control and do not always achieve their desired results.

The link Jericho has provided attempts to link the Skripal case to the murder of the Maltese journalist but we don't have confirmation that Skripal was investigating Cambridge Analytica, though I have said before I don't quite understand the Russian involvement with CA so cannot make a judgement on the report.

[peejaye]

1067963:whistle:

[peejaye]

https://www.rt.com/news/424149-skripal-poisoning-bz-lavrov/

[Stavros]

A convenient claim for Sergei Lavrov to make. The independent OPCW has issued a classified report on its findings from the Salisbury samples, yet Lavrov not only claims to have been given results directly from one of the laboratories used by the OPCW but that it proves Russia was not involved! But surely he would also need the results from the other laboratories to judge the OPCW report? It is so convenient that the Swiss lab proves what Lavrov wants it to prove, while the possibility that BZ produced in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was receiving arms from Russia could not possibly have been given to them for safe keeping, I mean, yani, that is so far fetched, ain't it?

[peejaye]

You can't educate pork ! :shrug

[peejaye]

Lots of rumors going around of a "media blackout" on traitor Skripal & his daughter..... WHY?
Odd considering some cunts over here were looking to start WW3 over it!
:ignore:

[nitron]

It seems to me.
Both sides are no goodnicks.
Bleh,

[sukumvit boy]

Long term effects of nerve agent used on Skiripal and daughter, and even first responders , unknown.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/uk-attack-shines-spotlight-deadly-nerve-agent-developed-soviet-scientists

[peejaye]

Long term effects of nerve agent used on Skiripal and daughter, and even first responders , unknown.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/uk-attack-shines-spotlight-deadly-nerve-agent-developed-soviet-scientists


The link you post is dated 19 March ! I have nothing to add to my previous posting :ignore: :ignore: :ignore:

[Stavros]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/europe/sergei-skripal-spying-russia-poisoning.html?hpw&rref=world&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

[filghy2]

Lots of rumors going around of a "media blackout" on traitor Skripal & his daughter.

If want to be a propagandist for the Russian government you might find that it's more effective if you don't just repeat the same phrases they use.

[peejaye]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/europe/sergei-skripal-spying-russia-poisoning.html?hpw&rref=world&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Thanks for the history lesson but if you don't know the current situation with these people; have a day off!

[peejaye]

If want to be a propagandist for the Russian government you might find that it's more effective if you don't just repeat the same phrases they use.

I'm not sure what form of cancer you represent but if my father had betrayed HIS country I would struggle to come to terms with it!

[filghy2]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson

[Stavros]

Thanks for the history lesson but if you don't know the current situation with these people; have a day off!

No drama, no cover-ups, no conspiracy. Sergei Skripal remains in hospital, his daughter is in a safe house, the police investigation continues. It is in the nature of such enquiries that they take a long time and involve a lot of tedious police work from forensics to interviews, trawling through CCTV footage, as was on evidence in the tragic case that was the subject of 'Catching a Killer' on Channel 4 last night. Maybe you should go to Salisbury and see for yourself? Now that the weather is improving it will be a nice day out for you, and might calm your fevered brow.

[peejaye]

No drama, no cover-ups, no conspiracy. Sergei Skripal remains in hospital, his daughter is in a safe house, the police investigation continues. It is in the nature of such enquiries that they take a long time and involve a lot of tedious police work from forensics to interviews, trawling through CCTV footage, as was on evidence in the tragic case that was the subject of 'Catching a Killer' on Channel 4 last night. Maybe you should go to Salisbury and see for yourself? Now that the weather is improving it will be a nice day out for you, and might calm your fevered brow.

Fucking gullible clown :claps

[Stavros]

Fucking gullible clown :claps

The tell us the truth about the current situation. I would like to know what it is.

[filghy2]

The tell us the truth about the current situation. I would like to know what it is.

But it's all here Stavros https://www.rt.com/trends/sergei-skripal-russian-intelligence/

[filghy2]

It looks like that 'media blackout' must have been called off. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-skripal-yulia/yulia-skripal-daughter-of-poisoned-russian-spy-in-her-own-words-idUSKCN1IO2N4

[sukumvit boy]

And the Putin poisonings continue...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/navalny-novichok-poisoning-russia/2020/09/02/8ab99f10-ed23-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html

[Stavros]

He's doing it because he can, because he will not tolerate opposition. And what is 'the West' going to do about it anyway? A proportionate response is not possible with chemicals only made in Russia, and it would be a foolish form of retaliation anyway. Putin knows this, which is why he chooses to use methods that are effective. Send diplomats home? Whatever. Sanctions? Don't care.

An English Tory MP this lunchtime said the Germans must cancel Nordsteam II, the gas pipeline from Narva Bay in Russia to Greifswald on the North German coast. I think the American President also sees this an opportunity to humiliate Merkel. But Navalny is not German, and those who want Norstream II cancelled appear to have nothing to say about Nordstream I that was opened in 2011 -is this to be shut down?

Germany lacks natural resources like oil and gas, whereas Russia, along with Iran and Qatar have the world's largest resources of natural gas, a low carbon fuel with a bright future -and one which will not include Putin, for he is not immortal. Germany needs the gas now, and in ten years time -where will Putin be then?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/merkel-pressured-to-end-nord-stream-2-support-after-navalny-poisoning

[Stavros]

"“It is interesting that everybody’s always mentioning Russia … but I think probably China at this point is a nation that you should be talking about much more so than Russia.” "
-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/donald-trump-casts-doubt-on-navalny-poisoning-saying-us-hasnt-had-any-proof

Russia, Russia, Russia...oh, wait a mo', its China, innit?

Democrats ought to be hammering away at this, from Felix Sater to Manafort and Flynn, and force The Apprentice on the Defensive.