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White_Male_Canada
08-06-2006, 07:02 AM
Getting rid of blindness ,is not such a bargain after all. Human eyes even when healed physically, need training and lots of practice before they can transmit what is “real” and “not real” back to the brain. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been sightless either: a decade or so of blindness and your cerebral cortex has to be completely reprogrammed, as if from infanthood. On opening his eyes ,the healed seer confronts a nonsensical, frightful, and well,cubist landscape. Over that shattered universe he must stubbornly impose the familiar 3D grid we live in.

Oliver Sacks wrote about the new seer in An Anthropologist on Mars. Virgil, age 50 and blind since childhood, has had successful eye surgery.5 weeks later “he often felt more disabled than he had felt when he was blind…Steps…posed a special hazard, because all he could see was a confusion, a flat surface of parallel and crisscross lines; he could not see them, although he knew them, as solid objects going up or coming down in 3-D space.”

He, Virgil, ”would pick up details incessantly-an angle ,an edge, a color ,a movement-but he would not be able to synthesize them, to form a complex perception at a glance. This was one reason the cat, visually, was so puzzling :he would see the paw, the nose, the tail, ear, but could not see all of them together, as a whole cat.” And his wife noted, ”Virgil finally put a tree together-he knows that the trunk and leaves go together to form a complete unit.”

This word-picture of an unmade tree set off associations in my mind. Particularly, Jesus and the Bethsaida blind man.(Told in St. Mark 8:22-25.St. Marks is the least adorned and oldest Gospel, dating roughly from 45 to 60 A.D.) “ And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him. And he took the blind man by the hand,and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked if he saw ought.”
And the blind man replied,” I see men as trees, walking.”

That is not a poetic image. It is a clinical description. Like Virgil, the Bethsaida blind man can now see, but he cannot yet make sense of what he is seeing. Tree and man run together, as did trunk and tree top for Virgil.(Both men could see movement because, according to Sacks, motion and color are inherent in the brain; they need not be learned or re-learned.)All this is not surprising to Jesus. He knows that a newly healed blind man has neither depth perception or the ability to synthesize shape and form. The blind man’s brain must first be calibrated: must be taught(in one miraculous instant) what you and I have known since childhood-how to see.

So Jesus heals the blind man for a second time. ”After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.”

As far as one can judge, this is irrefutable evidence that a miracle did occur at Bethsaida. Back in 30 A.D. the blind did not often receive sight: there were few ,if any, eye surgeons and seldom decent miracle workers. No shill in the crowd could have faked it all by pretending to be blind-because only someone recently given his sight would see “men as trees, walking” ,would see the cubist jumble that Virgil told Oliver Sacks about .A faker, not knowing about post-blind syndrome, would have reported that Jesus had given him perfect vision.

The most astounding thing about this is that you get not one, but two cures. Often even devout Christians downplay the wonder-working Jesus-lest they seem naïve or over credulous in a scientific age. We are somewhat embarrassed by New Testament miracles, as if God were cheating in the competition for our belief. We rationalize as an atheist might: ”So what if Jesus cured people who were blind? He was a charismatic faith healer. Some of his clientele no doubt, had come down with stress-induced psychosomatic conditions. Jesus healed them through positive thought or hypnosis, whatever, Rasputin did the same: nothing supernatural about this.”

That explanation might still hold for part one of the Bethsaida event. So let us suppose a man like Virgil, blind since childhood because of traumatic shock. Let us also suppose that Jesus, Messiah as therapist, came along and healed Virgil in a non-miraculous way. That does not explain part two. Whether Virgil’s blindness was physical or psychosomatic(all in his head),still his brain would have been deprived of the visual exercise and constant drill essential to clear 3-d sight. Only by miracle could Jesus provide that necessary crash course in visual recognition. charismatic healers may be able to unblock sight-but they cannot infuse a human brain with a lifetime of visual experience necessary for normal sight.

Both Positivist and Christian are stalemated on the subject of New Testament miracles. Positivist thought is certain that no miracle could ever have taken place-because such an event would contravene natural law. Your traditional Christian, by contrast, will accept the Gospel accounts on faith. Until now, these two categories of thinking were mutually exclusive: science and faith could not collaborate. But, at Bethsaida, something quite different came about: a miracle that depends on science for its proof, that cannot be understood except by adducing modern medical data-quite unknown in 30 A.D.-as evidence. And, when one miracle has been proved, it then at once becomes not just possible, but probable, that another miracle can also be proved true.

chefmike
08-06-2006, 07:33 AM
LMFAO...who could ever doubt documentation like that...or this?

Felicia Katt
08-06-2006, 08:44 AM
Funny how the other Gospels talk about that same miracle

Luke 18
42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight. Your faith has healed you."

43 Immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God. All the people, when they saw it, praised God.

Funny, also, how there are other instances of sight being restored spontaneously, but without a Messiah present

A woman who had been blind for 25 years awoke in hospital after suffering a heart attack and found that she could see again
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/20/nblind20.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/01/20/ixhome.html

In 2000 there were reports of a 76-year-old man, also from Coventry, regaining vision after being blind for 12 years. One day, in his armchair, he realised that he could see colours and his sight returned.

In 1996 a young woman from New Zealand, blind for 10 years, banged her head on a table as she stooped to kiss her guide dog. The next day she could see.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/20/nblind120.xml

so, maybe, just maybe something similar happened 2000 years ago or so and maybe people talked about it, they way they do now, and Jesus heard of it, or maybe his disciples did and used it as a metaphor or an allegory in a sermon. I mean, when the Bible talks about being blind and seeing again, aren't they really talking about regaining faith, not eyesight?

FK

White_Male_Canada
08-06-2006, 08:10 PM
Funny how the other Gospels talk about that same miracle

Luke 18
42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight. Your faith has healed you."

43 Immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God. All the people, when they saw it, praised God.

Funny, also, how there are other instances of sight being restored spontaneously, but without a Messiah present

A woman who had been blind for 25 years awoke in hospital after suffering a heart attack and found that she could see again
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/20/nblind20.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/01/20/ixhome.html

In 2000 there were reports of a 76-year-old man, also from Coventry, regaining vision after being blind for 12 years. One day, in his armchair, he realised that he could see colours and his sight returned.

In 1996 a young woman from New Zealand, blind for 10 years, banged her head on a table as she stooped to kiss her guide dog. The next day she could see.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/20/nblind120.xml



FK

You must be blind also. That or you can`t read.

Like Paul Harvey says, " And now, the rest of the story" :

"...she suffered from glaucoma..."

Glaucoma develops gradually.

"...Joyce Urch had lived in a world of shadows and near-darkness..."

Shadows and near-darkness is now considered to be totally blind? My how standards shift.

"...regaining vision after being blind for 12 years."

Does not require the brain to be re-programmed on the spot,in the blink of an eye :wink:

The Bible passages I qoute are too literal to be metaphoric in nature. But hey,one would have to be spiritualy blind to state just that 8)

trish
08-06-2006, 09:59 PM
What is it about Mark’s text that renders it “too literal to be taken metaphorically”? And why is his account inconsistent with Luke’s testimony? You haven't explained that yet. Perhaps one of these guys is inventing or the other editing crucial parts of the story. Wonder what else they invented and edited? ‘should've called this thread “Bible Fails to Explain Inconsistent Testimonials of Alleged Miracle.

White_Male_Canada
08-07-2006, 12:02 AM
What is it about Mark’s text that renders it “too literal to be taken metaphorically”? And why is his account inconsistent with Luke’s testimony? You haven't explained that yet. Perhaps one of these guys is inventing or the other editing crucial parts of the story. Wonder what else they invented and edited? ‘should've called this thread “Bible Fails to Explain Inconsistent Testimonials of Alleged Miracle.

Trish, tisk tisk.

Two diferent places,two different points in time. One was at Bethsaida,the other was in Jericho. Bartimaeus (resident of Jericho) the beggar was aware of the commotion and some argue that he could see a little. Common at the time was purulent ophthalmia. A simple disease requiring a simple cure.

"When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?"

chefmike
08-07-2006, 12:16 AM
Beware Trish, the rapture is coming...and white canadian cracker shall then sit at the throne of jesus, or bush, nixon or maybe limbaugh...it's hard to keep track of all these right wing biblical fairy tales....I guess Pat Robertson will have to be consulted...

White_Male_Canada
08-07-2006, 12:26 AM
Beware Trish, the rapture is coming...and white canadian cracker shall then sit at the throne of jesus, or bush, nixon or maybe limbaugh...it's hard to keep track of all these right wing biblical fairy tales....I guess Pat Robertson will have to be consulted...

You`re input was invaluable. Never consulted Pat or listened to him. Why bother believe a guy who believes in man made global warming. Like that`s a bad thing 8)

Now post your dd214. Oops,sorry forgot. You don`t have one. :lol:

Felicia Katt
08-07-2006, 08:48 AM
You must be blind also. That or you can`t read.

Like Paul Harvey says, " And now, the rest of the story" :

"...she suffered from glaucoma..."

Glaucoma develops gradually.

"...Joyce Urch had lived in a world of shadows and near-darkness..."

Shadows and near-darkness is now considered to be totally blind? My how standards shift.

"...regaining vision after being blind for 12 years."

Does not require the brain to be re-programmed on the spot,in the blink of an eye :wink:

The Bible passages I qoute are too literal to be metaphoric in nature. But hey,one would have to be spiritualy blind to state just that 8)
Talk about not seeing the point. I gave several examples of people recovering their sight without medical or miracle help, not just one. Do a google search, and you will see there are lots of other accounts of people regaining sight

And the bigger point, which isn't addressed by your attempted nitpicking about the details of one account of restored vision (ignoring, of course, the complete lack of details about how long the people in the Bible stories had been blind, or what the sources of their blindness were) is that just because there is a Biblical account of restored eyesight which may or may not track with the way vision can develop when it is regained doesn't prove that Jesus did it. Like I said, its just as plausible that they heard that story, which would have been passed around much the way stories like it are passed around today, and used it as an analogy or allegory for the religious point they were trying to make.


Luke 6:41-42 41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye

Your own spiritual blindness is showing.

FK

LoadedRevolver66
09-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Question for White_Male_Canada: If all you do is claim Jesus heals the blind and spout right-wing politics, then what are you doing on the HA boards? I have never seen you post any pictures of shemales or discuss them. Using a TS website just to discuss your own politics defeats the purpose of joining HA as opposed to FreeRepublic.

So answer me: why do you post on a TS website if you never or rarely discuss T-girls?

werwt22
02-19-2007, 02:22 AM
LOL You guys gotta be kidding me. If the bible gave detailed examples of every miracle there would be 50 other versions each being more than 20 times as thick. The bible speaks in metaphors so it can be applied in multiple situations and not specifics. And would you really understand the message they were trying to bring if some medical backing and eye witness testimony were in every example?

Coroner
02-19-2007, 03:23 AM
"You are now logged as White Male Canada, Pat Robertson"