Can You Be Considered High Class When You Sell Sex?

[Fairly Lussier]

I read a thread on here recently, which I can no longer locate, so I have started a new thread. It made a very interesting point about having class, and selling sex .... and how really the 2 ideas conflict with each other. It raised the point that to sell yourself for sex to another person, eliminates the possibility of having any class whatsoever. It raised a similar point for porn stars.

This was actually raised by a ts girl,who herself was an escort,and it is a point I agree with, I mean no matter how much money you make as an escort, you cannot buy class. You can live in the middle of Mayfair, Chelsea, Upper Manahattan or Beverly Hills, you can wear Chanel, Fendi or Versace, you can stay at the Ritz or the Dorchester, but none of this gives you class, you either have it or you do not. When you sell yourself for sex, you can call yourself High Class, and you can charge ridiculous amounts of money ... but when it all comes down to it ... you are a prostitute, plain and simple.

In the a fore mentioned thread, some people people felt that class was defined by personality, and how you treat other people. They felt that a lot of these girls have no option but to escort, due to their looks, and how passable they are. Due to them being alienated by their family, and friends, and being black balled by society. I used to be in this group of thought too.

However, when you have a girl who has had so much surgery prior to the age of 19, that she has finished her transition. Who is so convincing, she could do anything she wants. Who has the support of her family and friends in her transition. Who has a place at university studying law. Who drops out, sells herself for sex, against the wishes of her family, in turn alienating herself from them, and takes crystal meth. Can she really be considered high class? or even low class for that matter? I'm sorry but in my humble opinion you cannot possibly be described as having any class at all. Calling yourself high class, or a VIP and charging people excessive amounts of money doesn't change this fact .... it simply means people are dressing something to appear as something else, in order to stroke ones own ego, and I feel That! ..... is quite sad.

[topboy]

I agree with you 100% but you gotta keep in mind that most of these girls are delusional and think money can buy class, so let them think the way they want to think.

[Jericho]

Ok, come on, name 'em, who knocked you back? :shrug

[Fairly Lussier]

Knocked me back? Rather cynical, and quite far from the truth. No naming names, Im in enough trouble as it is. Someone I used to date, who I ex-communicated actually. Due to the points made above.

[Jericho]

So, not cynical at all, really! :shrug

If you've an axe to grind, why not come out and say that, rather than beat about the bush. :shrug

[Fairly Lussier]

No, no axe to grind.

On the previous thread, people made the argument that most girls have no choice but to do it. I was merely using my personal experience to highlight a point that this is not always the case, and that some people make a choice to do it. Hence raising the issue of the class debate.

I will say no more on this thread myself, other people can give their opinions, which is the point

[trish]

Can anyone be considered high class if they sell their labor; i.e. burn their own calories to provide a service? Whatever that service may be? How about if they grind burrs off molded aluminum beer steins? Or shuffle papers in accounting? Feed and mow lawns in Beverly Hills? Or draw espressos for the patrons of a coffee shop? A blow job is a blow job and every job is a blow job. Who’s to judge whether the people giving them or the people buying them are high class? If you find worth in your work and you do it well, what the hell?

Isn’t the whole notion of class a bit repulsive? It’s just an excuse for passing judgements on personal worth. E.g. He’s just a blue collar worker. She’s a prostitute and always will be. [Just last week an escort in these forums called me a prostitute! WTF?] If you’re okay with yourself and what you do to supplement your income or make a living, that’s class enough for me (as long as you aren’t hurting anyone in the process).

[Bridgettaxo]

huh? yes you can..

[christianxxx]

let's be clear, you are incorrectly painting all sex workers with a broad brush.

prostitutes are streetwalkers - selling sex on the street to random johns for 50 quid

we are talking about escorts/companions - selling sex online for much higher rates to a much wealthier clientele.

So your premise is false on its face. High class escorts are way way way above prositutes, even though the actual definition is the same.

[Bridgettaxo]

i don't see what other people judgement has to do with self worth? screw that idea! we all are valuable spiritual beings.. this whole thing is absurd..

[Fairly Lussier]

Ok I said I would say nothing else but I have to comment on what Christian has said.

That is exactly what I am talking about. Because you sell yourself for more on the Internet to richer people, in what way does that produce class exactly? Whether you sell sex for 50 bucks or 250 bucks it does not redefine what you are. If I sell hotdogs for 5 bucks and someone sells his for 205 bucks are we both not hot dog vendors?

[christianxxx]

your analogy is flawed. if I sell some fake cubic zirconia for 10 bucks and someone sells the Hope Diamond for 22 million bucks are they both jewelers? don't be ridiculous. one is high class and one is not.

[Bobzz]

Ok I said I would say nothing else but I have to comment on what Christian has said.

That is exactly what I am talking about. Because you sell yourself for more on the Internet to richer people, in what way does that produce class exactly? Whether you sell sex for 50 bucks or 250 bucks it does not redefine what you are. If I sell hotdogs for 5 bucks and someone sells his for 205 bucks are we both not hot dog vendors?

Typically, if you sell a $5 hot dog, it'll be at a hot dog cart or a food truck. It might be a tasty hot dog but no one will confuse that with class. On the other hand, if you sell a hot dog for $205, people will expect it to be stuffed with foie gras, served on white linen tablecloths on fine china, with waiters, a wine list and in a cozy little dining room. People will associate that experience with class. You are decidedly NOT both hot dog vendors.

[GroobySteven]

Fairly Lussier (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/member.php?u=148727) - BANNED - same asshat that was causing trouble yesterday.

[AshlynCreamher]

Fairly Lussier (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/member.php?u=148727) - BANNED - same asshat that was causing trouble yesterday.

Wow you're really on a role this week :nervous:

[CoolAwesomeBXDude]

i tell you guys he is on a mission

he seems to be bitter at everything right now

[itsnotme]

wb Robbie

[AshlynCreamher]

Could you be more clear about why you don't like him?

[itsnotme]

no one likes him :(

[GroobySteven]

no one likes him :(

You're pretty much next on the ban also.

[GroobySteven]

Could you be more clear about why you don't like him?

Read him going ballistic when I tell him we won't do his fantasy.


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=92282

[itsnotme]

You're pretty much next on the ban also.

Steven Grooby great guy hansom with an excellent sense of humor and a snappy dresser

[GroobySteven]

Steven Grooby great guy hansom with an excellent sense of humor and a snappy dresser

A bit better if you could have checked the spelling first.

[itsnotme]

internet its srs business

[AshlynCreamher]

Read him going ballistic when I tell him we won't do his fantasy.


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=1587710&postcount=3

I didn't know you always wanted to be a pilot

[GroobySteven]

I didn't know you always wanted to be a pilot

I meant astronaut, no I meant Michelin chef, no I meant ... or any other career that was highly likely to be unattainable for me.

[AshlynCreamher]

Awe poor grooby, he never wanted to be a porn producer - he just wanted to be somebody :(

It must be just awful

[GroobySteven]

Awe poor grooby, he never wanted to be a porn producer - he just wanted to somebody :(

It must be just awful

:-( Life turned out so wrong ...

[AshlynCreamher]

:-( Life turned out so wrong ...

See everybody Mr Grooby isn't all that bad, he's just misunderstood is all

[RallyCola]

I meant astronaut, no I meant Michelin chef, no I meant ... or any other career that was highly likely to be unattainable for me.

in the words of the greatest executive transvestite ever...."look, you're british so scale it down a bit, alright!!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGGeLHnDQk8

there is no point in answering the original question because my answer is 100% predictable.

[wearboots4me]

I don't think selling sex in and of itself makes anyone low class. Especially people who cannot find decent paying jobs due to discrimination.
Some escorts are low class, (and no I DO NOT mean anyone on this site) the ones who rip guys off. But that is because they are thieves,not just because they escort. There are honest and dishonest people who are escorts the same as there are honest and dishonest doctors, mechanics, construction workers, librarians, and so on.

[dreamon]

let's be clear, you are incorrectly painting all sex workers with a broad brush.

prostitutes are streetwalkers - selling sex on the street to random johns for 50 quid

we are talking about escorts/companions - selling sex online for much higher rates to a much wealthier clientele.

So your premise is false on its face. High class escorts are way way way above prositutes, even though the actual definition is the same.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think this is an entirely fair statement. For some, it might be a matter of circumstance. Not everyone has the means to work as an escort/companion.

[Jamie French]

Hell no we aint got no class! When you're a hooker, everyday is Saturday. Aint no school on Saturday.

[GrimFusion]

Class is a perception. It's only as accurate as known history would insist. If a room full of nobodies knew no better, a convenience store hooker could have "class" so long as she looked and behaved the part.

Honestly, though; nobody I know has any real class.

[Odelay]

Wow, this post brought GrimFusion back out of hiding. Impressive. Welcome back, dude.

[NearBostonMass]

Yes, I believe you can have class and sell sex. Of course, it all comes down to just exactly how you define class in an individual. For me, it's more about the innate qualities that a person possesses. How you treat people, your respect for your self and others and your sense of fair play and dignity should be weighed more than how you measure up next to a theoretical standard which most people probably base on superficial things like clothing, the way you communicate and how much money you have.
Think of all the horrible things people have had to do during war time to survive. If you lived through Stalingrad and had to eat rats to survive would you be any less classy?
Eating a rat with a knife and fork: Not necessarily classy.
Sharing your rat with someone starving to death: classy.
John Gotti in a $3K suit: Not Classy.
Homeless guy defending young TGirl from taunts of passing assholes: Classy.

Yes, I think you can still respect yourself and sell sex for a living, even if you are not forced into it by circumstances. I think it just depends on how you view the act of sex and it's level of intimacy for you and how you go about selling it. For me, it's not that much different than providing a legitimate massage. For others it's a big deal.
Finally, for the record, I prefer the ones without class.

Dear Quote Investigator: There is a famous story about sex and money that I have heard in myriad variations. A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:

She: What kind of woman do you think I am?
He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.
This joke is retold with different famous individuals filling the roles. Often Bernard Shaw is mentioned. Might also be Lord Beaverbrook of the great nation of Canada.

[AshlynCreamher]

Dear Quote Investigator: There is a famous story about sex and money that I have heard in myriad variations. A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:

She: What kind of woman do you think I am?
He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.
This joke is retold with different famous individuals filling the roles. Often Bernard Shaw is mentioned. Might also be Lord Beaverbrook of the great nation of Canada.

I believe Winston Churchill quoted this as well

[Lester316]

Whilst I can't actually be bothered to look up the actual definition this really depends on your notion of what 'class' is.

If the suggestion is class = quality service then I'd say of course an escort can be high class, much in line with what Christian said earlier. It would come down to expectations and hoping to get what you pay for. The analogy that springs to mind being air travel - if I book and pay for first class, I expect a much better standard of service.

I think the OP was certainly a bit sour though and meant class in terms of character which is of course totally wrong. Whatever job you choose to do (or have to do) has no reflection on whether you are a classy individual or not and his attempt at suggesting all TS-girls who escort aren't classy simply whiffs of someone who is not happy with his own individual experiences.

[Carlos Cain]

[QUOTE=NearBostonMass;1588776]Yes, I believe you can have class and sell sex. Of course, it all comes down to just exactly how you define class in an individual. For me, it's more about the innate qualities that a person possesses. How you treat people, your respect for your self and others and your sense of fair play and dignity should be weighed more than how you measure up next to a theoretical standard which most people probably base on superficial things like clothing, the way you communicate and how much money you have.

Eating a rat with a knife and fork: Not necessarily classy.
Sharing your rat with someone starving to death: classy.
John Gotti in a $3K suit: Not Classy.
Homeless guy defending young TGirl from taunts of passing assholes: Classy.

Yes, I think you can still respect yourself and sell sex for a living, even if you are not forced into it by circumstances.

I agree with many points made here. I respectfully disagree that you can have respect for yourself if you sell sex for a living. Also in line with your point about possessions, and clothes and superficial things... anyone who escorts and is not forced to do so by circumstance ... they do it because they are wholly superficial. Otherwise ......... why would they do it? And anyone who does crystal meth, certainly doesn't respect themselves.

[Stavros]

I don't know about high class, I am more concerned with the Ruling Class, as they seem to get away with theft and murder on a scale that sets them apart from everyone else.

[Carlos Cain]

I don't know about high class, I am more concerned with the Ruling Class, as they seem to get away with theft and murder on a scale that sets them apart from everyone else.

Id agree with that. That is a whole other conversation that could span a lifetime though.

[Jackal]

If you do not want to be or use the services of a prostitute/escort, fine, but why degrade them? They are usually providing very good service to people and giving them exactly what they pay for. I always thought it was one of the most honest professions ever.

[Janet77]

I don't know about high class, I am more concerned with the Ruling Class, as they seem to get away with theft and murder on a scale that sets them apart from everyone else.

This.
I have met women working as escorts that I definitely consider high class. I have also met high-ranking executives, male and female, that are not just low-class but certifiable sociopaths...

[Plaything]

Class has nothing to do with money.

Or how we earn it.

And we are not all valuable, spiritual beings.

Character is demonstrated by how we behave when no one is looking...and how we treat those who cannot benefit us in some material fashion.

Refer to Bill Hicks if you are struggling with any of the above.

[Carlos Cain]

This.
I have met women working as escorts that I definitely consider high class. I have also met high-ranking executives, male and female, that are not just low-class but certifiable sociopaths...

There are plenty of working girls who are certifiable sociopaths though. When I read the OP, someone who drops their friends and family to do become an escort certainly sounds to me like a person without moral conscience or resposibility.



Class has nothing to do with money.

Or how we earn it.

Character is demonstrated by how we behave when no one is looking...and how we treat those who cannot benefit us in some material fashion.

Again referring to the OP, I believe the guy is a bit sour about the situation he's describing, but I think the point he was making is that escorts are always looking to benefit from someone in a material fashion? i.e they are always on the hustle.

[itsnotme]

lol there is no class on a weekend like Jamie french says and ive never concerned myself with trying to be posh i am who i am and people might look down on it but fuck them

[lifeisfiction]

Class is a weird thing. Being rich is not class, nor being blue blooded is class (those folks think they are born with it, lol), but I have seen people from all walks of life who handle themselves with a distinct class and honor by virtue of their character.

[my my my!]

"high class" prostitute/escort is like saying shit can be served on a bun or in a gourmet plate.

it is still shit.

No offense to sex workers i.e. prostitutes/escorts/companions but it is what it is. no sugarcoating. You're a prostitute, nothing more , nothing less.

[fred41]

"high class" prostitute/escort is like saying shit can be served on a bun or in a gourmet plate.

it is still shit.

No offense to sex workers i.e. prostitutes/escorts/companions but it is what it is. no sugarcoating. You're a prostitute, nothing more , nothing less.

You say no offense...but you use shit on a bun as a metaphor.
Listen, everyone's entitled to an opinion..and since you have 'transadmirer and friend next to your picture, I could assume you might take some type of political stance, such as - escorting (and perhaps other type of adult work) is hurting the image of the trans-community...or whatever.
But why come on a site where the majority of the girls are in some type of adult business and make comments like that?


hell, I think people that make comments like that are assholes

no offense to assholes.

[broncofan]

We'd first need to define class. If it means people who are fundamentally honest and treat others fairly, then yes. If it means people who are well armored against unfair and hypocritical judgment by others then no.

[Plaything]

"high class" prostitute/escort is like saying shit can be served on a bun or in a gourmet plate.

it is still shit.

No offense to sex workers i.e. prostitutes/escorts/companions but it is what it is. no sugarcoating. You're a prostitute, nothing more , nothing less.

The reality here, in fact, is...

You are an escort.

Nothing less

Thank you.

My world is a better place because you are in it.

x

[my my my!]

You say no offense...but you use shit on a bun as a metaphor.
Listen, everyone's entitled to an opinion..and since you have 'transadmirer and friend next to your picture, I could assume you might take some type of political stance, such as - escorting (and perhaps other type of adult work) is hurting the image of the trans-community...or whatever.
But why come on a site where the majority of the girls are in some type of adult business and make comments like that?


hell, I think people that make comments like that are assholes

no offense to assholes.

No, i'm saying that classifying an escort as "high class" vs a street walker is pointless. there's no sugarcoating the term "prostitution", they're still selling their body for money, which i consider demeaning and inhumane.

the term "high class" in itself is a very putrid statement to begin with.

[GroobySteven]

No, i'm saying that classifying an escort as "high class" vs a street walker is pointless. there's no sugarcoating the term "prostitution", they're still selling their body for money, which i consider demeaning and inhumane.

the term "high class" in itself is a very putrid statement to begin with.


"which i consider demeaning and inhumane." - what part of it is demeaning and inhumane? Explain please? What do you do for a living?

[Jericho]

No, i'm saying that classifying an escort as "high class" vs a street walker is pointless. there's no sugarcoating the term "prostitution", they're still selling their body for money, which i consider demeaning and inhumane.


To be specific, they sell sex...By your definition, anyone who's ever had a wage packet has sold their bodies.
So I guess we're all whores! :hide-1:

The rest's just marketing! :shrug

[Carlos Cain]

No, i'm saying that classifying an escort as "high class" vs a street walker is pointless. there's no sugarcoating the term "prostitution", they're still selling their body for money, which i consider demeaning and inhumane.

It is only our vastly flawed nature which allows us to sell our bodies for financial gain. Therefore it is a very human thing to do. It is demeaning to yourself because as soon as you sell your body people no longer respect you whether its your friends, family or your clients.

I also concur that the term escort and prostitute are synonymous with each other, an escort is simply a more expensive prostitute. I think the point of this thread is probably to discuss the sugarcoating that goes on around this, especially in some of the advertising we see these days.

I have dated, been friends with, and seen escorts in a business capacity over the years. A number of which have described themselves as high class in their ads. One recent example conversation with a " High Class " friend went like so:

Me: Why do you like me?
Her: I like guys with shaved heads, and stubble, its hot ... that and arab looking guys.
Me: I thought you hated arab guys?
Her? When did I say that?
Me: Well anytime you tell me about weirdos following you home or trying to chat you up at a train station or something you always say they're arab and they're weird.
Her: Oh yeah, I see what you mean, ... but thats just the poor ones.

She also told me about her best friend sleeping with his brother and felt that was acceptable, as long as it didn't affect her. A high class individual?

[my my my!]

"which i consider demeaning and inhumane." - what part of it is demeaning and inhumane? Explain please? What do you do for a living?

the intimacy of love and sex are a sacred part of the human psyche in my opinion. to be touched and be penetrated, or penetrate a stranger , for the simple act of survival is what i consider demeaning (getting money to pay bills from that)

there's people that voluntarily get into the sex biz, and that's their prerogative. Just like i'm ALLOWED to have my opinion about it being demeaning. If they want to continue doing it, I don't lose sleep any over it, but it does not change my opinion.

Now,I know people are going to bring up the "blah blah blah, other jobs can be just as demeaning, blah blah blah" and to a certain extent I see their viewpoint, but to me it is very different doing a shitty job, and selling your body. sorry, but that's the way i feel.

[AshlynCreamher]

to be touched and be penetrated, or penetrate a stranger , for the simple act of survival is what i consider demeaning (getting money to pay bills from that)



In my opinion' there's nothing wrong with getting paid to do something you enjoy doing


Its also my opinion' its demeaning to earn money doing something you hate doing ;)


What is it you do for a living?

[my my my!]

In my opinion' there's nothing wrong with getting paid to do something you enjoy doing


Its also my opinion' its demeaning to earn money doing something you hate doing ;)


What is it you do for a living?

so, there's nothing wrong with a drug dealer making money, as long as he enjoys doing it?

i'm the CEO of a successful company that I founded.

[AshlynCreamher]

so, there's nothing wrong with a drug dealer making money, as long as he enjoys doing it?

i'm the CEO of a successful company that I founded.

Well take Grooby Steven for example: he too is a CEO of a successful company. Only problem is; HE HATES EVERY WAKING MOMENT OF IT - by chance he's been forced into a life where he is constantly surrounded by beautiful people and has to suffer from the unknown of what could had been :(

This is a perfect example of what it means to demean yourself!

[broncofan]

the intimacy of love and sex are a sacred part of the human psyche in my opinion. to be touched and be penetrated, or penetrate a stranger , for the simple act of survival is what i consider demeaning (getting money to pay bills from that)

I don't agree with your view but every person I've talked to who considers sex work degrading considers the sex worker to be a victim. Why then would you go out of your way to insult people you think are exploited?

Your comment was not the paternalistic one seeking to protect people from exploitation but a fairly obvious and unnecessary insult.

The next question I have is: can someone have class and do something demeaning? Even if sex work is demeaning (and as others have said I don't think it is any more demeaning than other work), why would that preclude sex workers from behaving with class?

[broncofan]

the term "high class" in itself is a very putrid statement to begin with.
A putrid statement? What does that mean? You can't say someone is not high class if you can't even agree on a meaning for the term. I have a feeling you've only said what you've said to insult others..no deep convictions, very little grasp of what's moral and what's not, but a lot of self-satisfied bs.

[tarot]

Some of the best people I have ever met are hookers . I love them!

[my my my!]

A putrid statement? What does that mean? You can't say someone is not high class if you can't even agree on a meaning for the term. I have a feeling you've only said what you've said to insult others..no deep convictions, very little grasp of what's moral and what's not, but a lot of self-satisfied bs.

I have a feeling you're an idiot, if you don't understand the meaning of a putrid statement.

[my my my!]

I don't agree with your view but every person I've talked to who considers sex work degrading considers the sex worker to be a victim. Why then would you go out of your way to insult people you think are exploited?

Your comment was not the paternalistic one seeking to protect people from exploitation but a fairly obvious and unnecessary insult.

The next question I have is: can someone have class and do something demeaning? Even if sex work is demeaning (and as others have said I don't think it is any more demeaning than other work), why would that preclude sex workers from behaving with class?

I'm not out to protect anybody. they're adults and can fend for themselves. If they voluntarily enter the sex worker industry, the consequences are there for them and those who frequent them. I still think it is degrading, demeaning, and demoralizing to some extent.

If they "like" doing it, more power to them, Still does not make them "better" or higher class than a street walker, sorry.

[broncofan]

I have a feeling you're an idiot, if you don't understand the meaning of a putrid statement.
I understand what it means in isolation. I have no clue what the phrase's putrid-ness has to do with your answer to the question.

As I said, I've never heard of anyone who calls prostitution dehumanizing and then decides it best to insult the people you think have been dehumanized. This would be akin to saying, "you know coal miners face all sorts of threats to their health and often have a reduced life expectancy.......what assholes." But each to their own.

[RobynBlakeTS]

I'm not out to protect anybody. they're adults and can fend for themselves. If they voluntarily enter the sex worker industry, the consequences are there for them and those who frequent them. I still think it is degrading, demeaning, and demoralizing to some extent.

If they "like" doing it, more power to them, Still does not make them "better" or higher class than a street walker, sorry.

You say that while on a porn forum? You can throw porn stars into your thinking as they sell their bodies for money. If its so degrading, demeaning and demoralizing then why are you on a porn forum?

[trapped4good]

Very Important concepts here: Suppose that you are born into a wealthy family...so you have an inheritance, let's say, $1.000.000. You are kind of protected....you have time...to be what you want to be.
Suppose, on the other hand, you are poor, or relatively so...any yet you are different...what are your choices???? Perhaps you are forced to become a provider...to get coin.
Here is the rub, however...it matters not, unless and until something happens or snaps inside the provider, wherein they are changed, hardened, to such an extent that they can no longer react to "true love" or they are so trapped by the high income they might earn that they can not leave the provider business UNTIL it is TOO LATE to be able to enjoy True Love, and the freedom that only true love can bring to life.

"How many roads must a Man walk down, Before they call him a man??"
"How may tricks must a provider provide, before she is destroyed to such an extent that she could never quit and be happy??"

The theory here, of course, is that, when you think about any of this, you realize that whether anyone is straight, or gay or trans or whatever, real happiness seems to encompass only a very few concepts, and they really are all of the same category...This idea of class misses the point of happiness...nothing is desired on earth but happiness, itself...If you are on the way to the point where you are being destroyed by what you do, to the extent thay you may never again be happy, they you really are in trouble, whether you might be identified as a person with class.

[Jericho]

Well take Grooby Steven for example: he too is a CEO of a successful company. Only problem is; HE HATES EVERY WAKING MOMENT OF IT - by chance he's been forced into a life where he is constantly surrounded by beautiful people and has to suffer from the unknown of what could had been :(

Yeah...Poor bastard!
I'll have to offer to take the load off one day!

[Carlos Cain]

If you're feeling down depressed and lonely
I know a place where we can go
22 Acacia Avenue meet a lady that I know
So if you're looking for a good time
And you're prepared to pay the price
Fifteen quid is all she asks for
Everybody's got their vice

If you're waiting for a long time for the rest to do their piece
You can tell her that you know me and you might even get it free
So any time you're down the East End don't you hesitate to go
You can take my honest word for it she'll teach you more than you can know

Charlotte can't you get out from all this madness
Can't you see it only brings you sadness
When you entertain your men don't know the risk of getting disease

Some day when you're reaching the age of forty
I bet you'll regret the days when you were laying
Nobody then will want to know
You won't have any beautiful wares to show any more

22, the avenue that's the place where we all go
You will find it's warm inside the red light's burning bright tonight

Charlotte isn't it time you stopped this mad life
Don't you ever think about the bad times
Why do you have to live this way
Do you enjoy your lay or is it the pay

Sometimes when your strolling down the avenue
The way you walk it make men think of having you
When you're walking down the street
Everybody stops and turns to stare at you

Beat her mistreat her do anything that you please
Bite her excite her make her get down on her knees
Abuse her misuse her she can take all that you've got
Caress her molest her she always does what you want

You're running away don't you know what you're doing
Can't you see it'll lead you to ruin
Charlotte you've taken your life and you've thrown it away
You believe that because what you're earning
Your life's good don't you know that you're hurting
All the people that love you don't cast them aside
All the men that are constantly drooling
It's no life for you stop all that screwing
You're packing your bags and you're coming with me

[GroobySteven]

Yeah...Poor bastard!
I'll have to offer to take the load off one day!

Oh if only.

[GroobySteven]

the intimacy of love and sex are a sacred part of the human psyche in my opinion. to be touched and be penetrated, or penetrate a stranger , for the simple act of survival is what i consider demeaning (getting money to pay bills from that)

there's people that voluntarily get into the sex biz, and that's their prerogative. Just like i'm ALLOWED to have my opinion about it being demeaning. If they want to continue doing it, I don't lose sleep any over it, but it does not change my opinion.

Now,I know people are going to bring up the "blah blah blah, other jobs can be just as demeaning, blah blah blah" and to a certain extent I see their viewpoint, but to me it is very different doing a shitty job, and selling your body. sorry, but that's the way i feel.


You should be sorry. You're a sorry, judgmental individual. You should be sorry because your already damaged through your own morals put upon you when you were younger. You should be sorry because you know very little about life and people. You're just pretty a sorry individual.
And no, you're not allowed to have that opinion.

[Jamie French]

Seriously... what use is being high class if it prevents you from selling sex? Sounds like a shitty way to live.

[Jamie French]

I'm not going to be happy until I'm completely devoid of class... if only because it seems to bug retards who have everything figured out.

Now where'd I put my GG Allin Instructional Video?

[jamesb121]

To be honest, I though that the U.S. was an almost classless society.

Does it matter though? Not to me but then again I'm British and we have a totally different view of the class system.

[Nikka]

Now where'd I put my GG Allin Instructional Video?

I love the video of the 11y.o. kid singing and playing DIE WHEN YOU DIE song , good lyrics for a kid LOL

[Carlos Cain]

I'm not going to be happy until I'm completely devoid of class... if only because it seems to bug retards who have everything figured out.

Funny. An american calling people retarded. Especially someone from Texas. Possibly one of the most backward hick places on the planet. Pot kettle and black comes to mind.

[GroobySteven]

Funny. An american calling people retarded. Especially someone from Texas. Possibly one of the most backward hick places on the planet. Pot kettle and black comes to mind.

You haven't been here long enough to start this shit. Tread lightly and don't be a tool.

[Carlos Cain]

You haven't been here long enough to start this shit. Tread lightly and don't be a tool.

I didn't start anything, someone else did when they started to throw around words like retard.

[GroobySteven]

I didn't start anything, someone else did when they started to throw around words like retard.

And now you're being a retard.

[Carlos Cain]

I disagree.

[jamesb121]

True that...

[Tapatio]

To be honest, I though that the U.S. was an almost classless society.

Does it matter though? Not to me but then again I'm British and we have a totally different view of the class system.

We may appear to entirely lack class, to some, but the U.S. is hardly classless.

You're right, though- definitely a different definition than the one you're used to. Here class is conferred by action, or sometimes assumed with wealth, but rarely conferred by birth (as with a peership or rents and a landed title.)

[my my my!]

I understand what it means in isolation. I have no clue what the phrase's putrid-ness has to do with your answer to the question.

As I said, I've never heard of anyone who calls prostitution dehumanizing and then decides it best to insult the people you think have been dehumanized. This would be akin to saying, "you know coal miners face all sorts of threats to their health and often have a reduced life expectancy.......what assholes." But each to their own.

I'm not insulting them, I just said it is the equivalent of trying to sugarcoat something that is bad.

you can love eating shit, and try to convince me it is good. and then tell me there is gourmet shit. and I will flat out tell you , there is no such thing as gourmet shit, it is all shit.

Same thing for escorts, in my opinion they're doing something degrading, demeaning and what i consider inhumane. Nothing is ever going to convince me that some are somehow "higher class" than their streetwalking counterparts. And I do know escorts in real life. And at no point do i think i'm hanging out with a "high class escort" or "lowly street walker", they're just friends and i treat them as such.

[jamesb121]

We may appear to entirely lack class, to some, but the U.S. is hardly classless.

You're right, though- definitely a different definition than the one you're used to. Here class is conferred by action, or sometimes assumed with wealth, but rarely conferred by birth (as with a peership or rents and a landed title.)

I'm glad you got my meaning.

The UK is obsessed with the class system - the U.S. work ethic (to my mind anyway) is king - work hard and achieve.

I know what you mean regards class by action however, surely it's a persons choice how to act and what to do, regardless of background and wealth.

[trish]

Yeast eat sugar and excrete alcohol_sometimes the really good high class stuff.

[Tapatio]

And now you're being a retard.

I'm digging this iteration of GroobySteven.

[Stavros]

True that...

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=810191&stc=1&d=1427151284

In what way is the boy in this photo retarded? I am surprised that someone would use such an offensive photo to make so minor a point.

[Jamie French]

I hope your kids are born severely autistic and then die after being hugged to death by a full on turbo retard.

Mad yet?


Funny. An american calling people retarded. Especially someone from Texas. Possibly one of the most backward hick places on the planet. Pot kettle and black comes to mind.

[wearboots4me]

To be honest, I though that the U.S. was an almost classless society.



Most people here in the U.S. try to pretend they're a lot better off then they really are. And a lot of working poor (and worse) who think they're temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

[wearboots4me]

I'm glad you got my meaning.

The UK is obsessed with the class system - the U.S. work ethic (to my mind anyway) is king - work hard and achieve.

I know what you mean regards class by action however, surely it's a persons choice how to act and what to do, regardless of background and wealth.

Hard work is usually necessary for success, but nothing is guaranteed. A lot of hard working people live in poverty. A lot of college graduates flip burgers, or wait tables these days for minimum wage. It's sad.

[Odelay]

Same thing for escorts, in my opinion they're doing something degrading, demeaning and what i consider inhumane. Nothing is ever going to convince me that some are somehow "higher class" than their streetwalking counterparts. And I do know escorts in real life. And at no point do i think i'm hanging out with a "high class escort" or "lowly street walker", they're just friends and i treat them as such.

I don't get this at all. You're calling this work degrading, demeaning and dehumanizing when everyone agrees that this work has been around since the advent of man. Evidence, would in fact, lead one to think that it's a very human thing, especially for those who freely choose the profession.

But the big thing I don't get is that you're friends with escorts, and if I'm not mistaken, you make posts in various threads glorifying the beauty of some of these girls who are escorts. That seems like a huge disconnect for you.

And finally, the arguments about girls separating themselves into high class escorts and low class escorts is a huge straw man. Where is the evidence that escorts do indeed separate themselves thusly? And don't give me any bullshit anecdotal stories from 3 "girls" who you know. Give me the friggin statistical study where the high classers have separated themselves from their low class sisters.

[Lester316]

OK had to pick some quotes from the thread and say my bit:


To be honest, I though that the U.S. was an almost classless society.

Does it matter though? Not to me but then again I'm British and we have a totally different view of the class system.

We do? I'm British and I don't think your sweeping generalization includes me.. perhaps you have been socially constructed to believe in a class system - seems pretty foolish to me.


True that...

Really posting that image - you sir have no class.


I'm not insulting them, I just said it is the equivalent of trying to sugarcoat something that is bad.

you can love eating shit, and try to convince me it is good. and then tell me there is gourmet shit. and I will flat out tell you , there is no such thing as gourmet shit, it is all shit.

Same thing for escorts, in my opinion they're doing something degrading, demeaning and what i consider inhumane. Nothing is ever going to convince me that some are somehow "higher class" than their streetwalking counterparts. And I do know escorts in real life. And at no point do i think i'm hanging out with a "high class escort" or "lowly street walker", they're just friends and i treat them as such.

The fault with your opinion is that you are assuming that escorts who choose to do what they do give a shit about what you might think. You can think it is 'demeaning', 'degrading' and 'inhumane' whilst they can happily laugh at fools like you, count their hard-earned money and live the life that they want.

You can love being a moron and try to convince me it is good. Then tell me there are such things as gourmet morons. I will flat out tell you, there is no such thing as a gourmet moron, they are all morons (I corrected your grammar and punctuation because sometimes even morons need help).


I'm glad you got my meaning.

The UK is obsessed with the class system - the U.S. work ethic (to my mind anyway) is king - work hard and achieve.

I know what you mean regards class by action however, surely it's a persons choice how to act and what to do, regardless of background and wealth.

Parts of your point are pretty fine, but seriously in the UK only the media are obsessed with the class system. The reality is there are the rich and the poor; the poor would much prefer to be rich. That's about it.


I'm digging this iteration of GroobySteven.

I 100% agree, well like 99.9%. I can do without retard being repeated but making sure the idiots are told they are such works for me.

[Skye]

Gamer girls are classy. Just saying.

[my my my!]

I don't get this at all. You're calling this work degrading, demeaning and dehumanizing when everyone agrees that this work has been around since the advent of man. Evidence, would in fact, lead one to think that it's a very human thing, especially for those who freely choose the profession.

But the big thing I don't get is that you're friends with escorts, and if I'm not mistaken, you make posts in various threads glorifying the beauty of some of these girls who are escorts. That seems like a huge disconnect for you.

And finally, the arguments about girls separating themselves into high class escorts and low class escorts is a huge straw man. Where is the evidence that escorts do indeed separate themselves thusly? And don't give me any bullshit anecdotal stories from 3 "girls" who you know. Give me the friggin statistical study where the high classers have separated themselves from their low class sisters.


uhhhmm, where to start with you...

okay. Being friends with escorts, yet still hoping they would choose another profession is not in any way a contradiction. I don't understand, why you don't understand that...

Now, admiring beauty, has nothing to do with profession. There might be really attractive girls in an office, and really attractive girls that are escorts. so i simply don't understand why you even brought that up. when I look at pics on Hungangels, I'm not reading underneath the pic "escort" . to me, she's just a model, and could be in school or any other job. so , again, your point is completely useless to me.

The girls themselves separate into the "high class" thing, which is what this thread is all about. They somehow think they're better or "higher class" than their streetwalking counterparts. And to me, that is a ridiculous concept.

Just because prostitution has existed forever does not make it any less degrading, and i question anyone's voluntary reason for getting into it. Should they lose sleep over my concern? No, and neither should I. Your explanation of the world's oldest profession is like saying, ohhh, cancer is ok, you know, because it's existed forever , it's nice and cuddly now.

If prostitutes want to keep doing it, by all means they're free to make that idiotic (in my opinion) decision. And I think it's idiotic that they somehow think they're better (implied by calling themselves "high class") than a streetwalker (again, my opinion).

I'm not apologizing, it's my opinion, and yes, I do think escorting is bad/degrading/stupid and outright dangerous. And to go into it voluntarily, even more so.

[trish]

I'm not insulting them, I just said it is the equivalent of trying to sugarcoat something that is bad.
I can understand how one might regard selling one’s body to be degrading. After all, it’s just a step away from someone else selling your body and that’s called slavery. But independent prostitutes do not sell their bodies, nor does anyone else. Like any other worker they merely sell a service.

It is not the service that demeans, but the judgement of others. Prostitution per se does not demean the practitioner anymore than collecting garbage demeans the sanitary worker; it is you who demeans prostitutes.

To make a public and judgmental distinction between the services provided by a sex worker and those provided by any other worker (a banker, a barber, a barista, a barrister, a body guard, a grocery bagger, a phlebotomist, a rumba instructor, a manure shoveler, a proctologist, a wine taster, massage therapist, a soldier, an astronaut etc.) is to make a display of your own sorry hangups. To make such judgmental distinctions here is both insulting and hypocritical.

[Jamie French]

To think that sex work for 100% willing practitioners of the trade is degrading, etc. means you think that something is inherently wrong with sex... that's like thinking there's something wrong with eating or taking a shit. I think someone had a weird uncle with grabby hands growing up, screwed up the poor guy's wiring.

[my my my!]

To think that sex work for 100% willing practitioners of the trade is degrading, etc. means you think that something is inherently wrong with sex... that's like thinking there's something wrong with eating or taking a shit. I think someone had a weird uncle with grabby hands growing up, screwed up the poor guy's wiring.

I'm ok with YOU liking it. I don't like it FOR YOU, or for anyone else. Are you going to listen to me? No.

there was no weird uncle. I just think it is degrading that something intimate like sex gets diluted into one night stands, prostitution encounters. I generally think sex with strangers and for money is not even really sex, it's just a veiled form of subjugation through low self esteem and self destruction.

If YOU want to do it, fine. If you want to shout from a soap box "im a whore and proud of it" , go right ahead. But don't think you're somehow better than a streetwalker, or less for that matter.

[Skye]

my my my... I find it absolutely hilarious that you are telling people who escort or sell a service related to sex that they're no better than a streetwalker, and yet you are attacking people for their choice of profession, which makes you trash, yourself. Honestly, you're a hypocrite.

As someone who grew up in wealth, I can absolutely assure you that money doesn't determine an individuals class. Neither does their profession, a persons character determines class and your character needs some serious work. You're entitled to a personal opinion. You aren't entitled to attack people because they don't share or agree with it.

[Jamie French]

Did Hallmark teach you about the birds and the bees? Jeezus, you're not a 13 year old girl are you? Sex is as intimate as the circumstances dictate, in much the same way a nice dinner with family members on a special occasion can in fact be an occasion in and of itself VS. going to a McDonalds drive through on your way to a prostitutes hotel room. If you treat every action like it's a 10 on the importance scale ALL THE TIME you're gonna wind up living a sad, frustrating life. You're gonna die angry. Sex can be every bit as empty and recreational as eating nachos at a bowling ally - and it's absolutely fine when it is. Pedistools are so 2005. We all stopped putting stuff on ours... come, join the rest of us humans. There's still some room over there, off to the side for newbies.


I'm ok with YOU liking it. I don't like it FOR YOU, or for anyone else. Are you going to listen to me? No.

there was no weird uncle. I just think it is degrading that something intimate like sex gets diluted into one night stands, prostitution encounters. I generally think sex with strangers and for money is not even really sex, it's just a veiled form of subjugation through low self esteem and self destruction.

If YOU want to do it, fine. If you want to shout from a soap box "im a whore and proud of it" , go right ahead. But don't think you're somehow better than a streetwalker, or less for that matter.

[my my my!]

my my my... I find it absolutely hilarious that you are telling people who escort or sell a service related to sex that they're no better than a streetwalker, and yet you are attacking people for their choice of profession, which makes you trash, yourself. Honestly, you're a hypocrite.

As someone who grew up in wealth, I can absolutely assure you that money doesn't determine an individuals class. Neither does their profession, a persons character determines class and your character needs some serious work. You're entitled to a personal opinion. You aren't entitled to attack people because they don't share or agree with it.

i'm not attacking anyone, I just think it is sad that they do it. it's their prerogative.

and yes, i think it is ridiculous that one person who sells their body, somehow thinks they're "high class" compared to someone who buys cheaper condoms and lives in a cheaper area. they're both doing the same demeaning/degrading thing (in my opinion) , so why is one better aka "high class" than the other one? they're both in a questionable, dangerous and downright idiotic (if voluntary) profession.

I agree that money or profession does not influence "class", I've been saying that all along. that a "high class" prostitute is no better nor worse than a street walker.

My character is fine as far as I'm concerned. You might think it needs work, as that is your opinion. Just like I have mine.

[Carlos Cain]

You're entitled to a personal opinion. You aren't entitled to attack people because they don't share or agree with it.


I think someone had a weird uncle with grabby hands growing up, screwed up the poor guy's wiring.

So thats not an attack on someone? That is the whole issue with this forum, its ok for the girls to say whatever they want and get away with it, but when someone reacts to it, it becomes almost blasphemy.

So escorting isn't demeaning in any way at all to anyone? What about the wives and girlfriends of the clients? Not your problem though? They come to you, you don't go looking for them? Funnily enough I have heard a drug dealer use the same argument. I have also heard, its just a job from a few of my friends, but where does that line get drawn in the sand? Does a hitman tell you its just a job?

This whole argument has now become pointless anyway, a tug of war they will always win even when your right. Its like politicians, everyone knows politicians are corrupt, but your never going to get one who comes out and says yes, we are corrupt, we take bribes, we falsely claim expenses, we make promises that we never follow through on and we have had people murdered to further our own causes. Its futile.

[Skye]

It just sounds like he had a really bad experience with an escort. Maybe he got turned down. I suppose that could be embarrassing. While you're on the subject of attacking people for selling sex, I suppose you might as well add everyone who works in the porn industry to the list. Hey, let's add anyone who does any kind of modeling, since they're pretty much selling their bodies. If it sounds stupid, it's because it is. Why are you on a porn forum to begin with? lol.

By the way... I see girls held accountable just as much as guys.

[Jamie French]

Fuck off, I don't take married clients. I have more class than that.
Do your research. My stance on the married issue is well documented throughout this forum.


So thats not an attack on someone? That is the whole issue with this forum, its ok for the girls to say whatever they want and get away with it, but when someone reacts to it, it becomes almost blasphemy.

So escorting isn't demeaning in any way at all to anyone? What about the wives and girlfriends of the clients? Not your problem though? They come to you, you don't go looking for them? Funnily enough I have heard a drug dealer use the same argument. I have also heard, its just a job from a few of my friends, but where does that line get drawn in the sand? Does a hitman tell you its just a job?

This whole argument has now become pointless anyway, a tug of war they will always win even when your right. Its like politicians, everyone knows politicians are corrupt, but your never going to get one who comes out and says yes, we are corrupt, we take bribes, we falsely claim expenses, we make promises that we never follow through on and we have had people murdered to further our own causes. Its futile.

[Carlos Cain]

I'm here because I'm a glutton for punishment. I hate this shit, but Im amazed by some of the stuff that goes on. each and every time I think " nope, thats it, I couldn't be surprised any more" I get proven wrong.

Who said people from the porn industry were excluded? Porn is all fun and games, until you know someone who does it. Then you see the effects its has on their mother and their father. Thats a fun time when they find out ... yeah been there done that.

[GroobySteven]

I hope your kids are born severely autistic and then die after being hugged to death by a full on turbo retard.

Mad yet?



Nope - but you are banned.

[Carlos Cain]

Fuck off, I don't take married clients. I have more class than that.
Do your research. My stance on the married issue is well documented throughout this forum.

Well if that is the case for yourself, then I at least respect that choice. That particular comment wasn't necessarily directed at you. I just happen to know someone who used that exact line of " I don't go looking for them, they come to me", the same girl who doesn't like poor arabs actually, yet describes herself as high class. Which disgusted me a bit.

[GroobySteven]

I'm here because I'm a glutton for punishment. I hate this shit, but Im amazed by some of the stuff that goes on. each and every time I think " nope, thats it, I couldn't be surprised any more" I get proven wrong.

Who said people from the porn industry were excluded? Porn is all fun and games, until you know someone who does it. Then you see the effects its has on their mother and their father. Thats a fun time when they find out ... yeah been there done that.


Oh you're not new to this forum are you? Another hater looking to get their warped point of view over? Who fucked you over? What was your last name? Who cares as you're 1 post away from a ban also ... or keeping around for amusement.

[Skye]

...its ok for the girls to say whatever they want and get away with it...

I think Jamie just getting banned shows that the above statement is false. I think this thread has gotten extremely heated, though. I don't really like the autistic comment. The family I buy my hay and straw from has an autistic son and he's a really amazing person.

[DeadGirl-Productions]

Ah hell... (Jamie here) I have 6 autistic people in my immediate family, (my aunt adopts troubled kids) I say what I say only because it pleases me to no end knowing that it bothers those insufferable over-sensitive types.

[Skye]

Maybe Mr.Steve will unban you if you apologize ^.^

[Odelay]

The girls themselves separate into the "high class" thing, which is what this thread is all about. They somehow think they're better or "higher class" than their streetwalking counterparts. And to me, that is a ridiculous concept. .

You obviously don't know what a straw man is so you should probably just quit. You don't know much about how to make a cogent argument. You should stick with: "These are my opinions and by god I'm sticking to them!"

[AshlynCreamher]

Seriously people, it isn't funny making fun of autistic people

http://kikfriender.com/profile/photo/55101d82a6c57.jpg

[Skye]

You're silly.

[my my my!]

You say that while on a porn forum? You can throw porn stars into your thinking as they sell their bodies for money. If its so degrading, demeaning and demoralizing then why are you on a porn forum?

the way i think of a porn star, is that is a voluntary depiction of a sexual/intimate act. almost like fine art.

just like in photography, if a girl gets photographed nude, does not automatically make her a porn star.

but to me , escorting/prostitution will never be "art". it is degrading, it is unregulated, it is dangerous and I honestly think it jades people and fucks with their psyche

so no, porn star does not equal prostitute. and for the record I am not against prostitution, however it baffles me why anyone would want to do it other than a last ditch effort to survive.

and to anyone suggesting i was raped, or turned down by an escort or anything of the such. no such thing. i just have compassion, and to me prostitution is bad, sorry.

[Tapatio]

My my my-

Would you feel the same if they advertised as "sexual surrogates"?

That's a real thing. Do you draw a distinction between that and prostitution?

[Tapatio]

I don't want much, man- give me a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTVx1crV6Ys

[RobynBlakeTS]

the way i think of a porn star, is that is a voluntary depiction of a sexual/intimate act. almost like fine art.

just like in photography, if a girl gets photographed nude, does not automatically make her a porn star.

Behave yourself, its sex for money, exactly the same as prostitution and could even be considered worse given that at least prostitution is private and between 2 parties where as porn is out there for all and everyone to see. Surely by your standards that is more degrading that someone is having sex for money and then its being shown all over the internet.


it is degrading, it is unregulated, it is dangerous and I honestly think it jades people and fucks with their psyche

In your opinion it is those things, only in your opinion on here.


porn star does not equal prostitute. and for the record I am not against prostitution, however it baffles me why anyone would want to do it other than a last ditch effort to survive.

Please, a porn star is a prostitute who films it lol they are getting paid to have sex with someone even if there is no physical or emotional attraction.

People do it for a number of reasons, some is out of desperation and their economic situation. Some do it for the thrill, some do it because they find it empowering and economically freeing. A lot of TS do it to fund their transition and also because they find themselves ostracized in society so do not have many options available to them self.

It reads as though you are trying to speak from some sort of moral high ground but I think you need to read some Nietzsche because morality isn't divine, its not carved in stone and doesn't exist.

[tarot]

Very nicely put , Robyn ..

[Skye]

Me, I go on chaturbate and like the idea of doing porn because i think it's fun. Sure, the money is nice, but its mostly the entertainment value that draws me in. Thankfully the government pays for my hormones and eventual srs. I also know a few escorts who do what they do because they like doing it. They weren't forced. If anyone should be criticized, it would be society for restricting options or at least making it more difficult, but this guy judging trans is just absurd.

[Nikka]

I used to be against escorts , the only person that lost with that was myself, nobody really cares
the only person that cares is someone really rich that will heir 10 million dollars, if u escort then daddy will not give u a piece of the cake ... u will not see white people escorting in SOuth America for that reason... any other reason is bullshit

and anyone saying escorts are low class, u have robyn quoting Nietzsche, my my my! you are fucked...

[derrick60053]

... u will not see white people escorting in SOuth America for that reason...
Not to side track but can you explain this some more pls?