You just lost me, Israel, you dumb fucks.

[suckseed]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060727/sc_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060727180753

I think you've made your point, Israel.
Fucking up the Mediterannean for who know how long isn't winning you any points in the court of world opinion.
In fact, I just quit caring about you. Dumbasses.

[suckseed]

...

[suckseed]

I really don't give a shit about who did what to whom at this point. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who tries to justify any killing by either side, whatever country you're from, can just save your goddamn breath. This is one American on the side of no one but the one who says "I will not kill anyone because my government tell me to."
These photographs were found on NPR. I'm sure I could find some of Israeli casualties too. I see these people not as Lebanese or Muslim. They're kids for God's sake. Mothers and fathers. I think I'm really angry at that which makes up the title of this new forum, which sums up all this fucked up shit: Politics and Religion.
I think if I were God right now I'd start thinking about the next Flood.

The "court of world opinion"?

Didn't Kerry lose an election with that nonsense?



What's the solution? Is Israel to standby as Hezbullah launches attacks from across the border?

The problem isn't Israel.

It's these cowardly fucking pussies, Hezbollah, who launch missile attacks and then refuse to FIGHT LIKE MEN!

BE A FUCKING MAN!

Don't launch attacks and then hide behind mommies skirt (ie hide out at UN buildings)

So many are quick to portray lebanese civilians as innocent bystanders, but they are complicit bystanders at best.

If they truly stand against Hezbollah, they need to confront the bully, Hezbollah.

[suckseed]

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.




* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood.
A finger fired the trigger to his name.
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man's brain
But he can't be blamed
He's only a pawn in their game.

A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid,
And the marshals and cops get the same,
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool.
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

From the poverty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks,
And the hoof beats pound in his brain.
And he's taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide 'neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain't got no name
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught.
They lowered him down as a king.
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.

[suckseed]

Tfan, I've made it plain I'm on the side of no one who bombs babies, especially my own government's. If a man killed my family, do I have the right to seek out and kill that man's family if they are innocent? Look at those kids in the above photos and tell me they ever had a say in what Fucking Hezbollah does. A man becomes a killer in these situations because he's fed propaganda all his life - the 'pawn in their game.' There are good and bad people on all sides. I choose to align myself with those who will not kill another over some bullshit that politicians try to feed us. That's not what this thread is for.

Tfan, I've made it plain I'm on the side of no one who bombs babies, especially my own government's. If a man killed my family, do I have the right to seek out and kill that man's family if they are innocent? Look at those kids in the above photos and tell me they ever had a say in what Fucking Hezbollah does. A man becomes a killer in these situations because he's fed propaganda all his life - the 'pawn in their game.' There are good and bad people on all sides. I choose to align myself with those who will not kill another over some bullshit that politicians try to feed us. That's not what this thread is for.


A great man once said "Wars are of course, as a rule to be avoided, but they are far better than certain kinds of peace."


It is not practical or responsible to simply "wish" war away. At some point Israel has to confront the bullies. They don't have a choice.


These babies wouldnt be in the line of fire if Hezbollah would simply fight like men. Period. End of sentence.

It is hezbollah that holds these babies hostage.

"War is never prevented by running away from it." - Air Marshal Sir John Slessor

[suckseed]

So, if you're a soldier for a wealthy country like, say, the US, and you're in a multimillion dollar fighter jet, and you drop a bomb on the enemies' troops on the ground, are you a coward?
Look! Hezbollah as far as I can tell, fight in such a way that they are cowards. I get what you're saying; it's not a hard point to grasp!
My original point on this, is that the dumb fucks who directed that the oil tanks by the sea be blown up are out of control. Don't take it out on the planet!
If I were a jew or a lebanese right now, I'd be taking my family out of the country. Personally, I'd give up on trying to live anywhere that put my loved ones in that much danger. You see, I have faith in things that are above (in my view) love of country, or my image of God, or a particular piece of dirt, or any possessions. There are three things one can do with an enemy. Kill them, turn them into a friend, or move away. Since you can't kill everyone in this situation without running into serious moral, ethical, religious, political and environmental issues, I'm saying simply, "Stop this stupid violence. Let's negotiate." I say drag every bloodlust crazed fucker to the table and make them behave or face imprisonment.
I really don't care what the fighting's all about anymore. Organized religion is full of lots of well meaning people, but I'd love to see a social experiment whereby it never existed. Overall, I don't think it helps. Or hell, maybe as a species we're not as good as I'd like to think, and without it we're a bunch of rabid dogs.

So, if you're a soldier for a wealthy country like, say, the US, and you're in a multimillion dollar fighter jet, and you drop a bomb on the enemies' troops on the ground, are you a coward?

Israel's cause is just and in self-defense. So no, said soldier is not a coward.


Look! Hezbollah as far as I can tell, fight in such a way that they are cowards. I get what you're saying; it's not a hard point to grasp!
My original point on this, is that the dumb fucks who directed that the oil tanks by the sea be blown up are out of control. Don't take it out on the planet!

If I were a jew or a lebanese right now, I'd be taking my family out of the country. Personally, I'd give up on trying to live anywhere that put my loved ones in that much danger.

You got that right. I'd move. I'd be loooong gone by now. But thats a different subject.

I'm simply saying, lets put the blame where the blame belongs; squarely on the shoulders of Hezbollah. Civilian lebanese are also not blameless. They've allowed their homeland to be overrun by these gun-toting cowards.


You see, I have faith in things that are above (in my view) love of country, or my image of God, or a particular piece of dirt, or any possessions. There are three things one can do with an enemy. Kill them, turn them into a friend, or move away. Since you can't kill everyone in this situation without running into serious moral, ethical, religious, political and environmental issues, I'm saying simply, "Stop this stupid violence. Let's negotiate." I say drag every bloodlust crazed fucker to the table and make them behave or face imprisonment.

Terror groups are not lead by men. You can drag these guys to the table, get them to sign a piece of paper promising to be nice and buy em dinner.... and it won't mean a fucking thing. Like Arafat, they'll talk peace in English and war in Arabic.'

They have proven to be lieing, treacherous cowards who can not be trusted. They don't respect civility. They only respect brute force.... and brute force they'll be dealt.


I really don't care what the fighting's all about anymore. Organized religion is full of lots of well meaning people, but I'd love to see a social experiment whereby it never existed.

That'll never happen. Never.


Overall, I don't think it helps. Or hell, maybe as a species we're not as good as I'd like to think, and without it we're a bunch of rabid dogs.


God created us in his image. So I do not believe we are rabid dogs.

[suckseed]

I give you credit, Tfan: you make your points intelligently. Look, I'm just frustrated. I remember years ago saying something to an animal rights friend of mine along the lines of being sick of the whole conflict. She got pretty tough with me about the irresponsibility of my attitude, and I felt like she made some historical points that were pretty persuasive. I know that part of the reason I ever make political posts anywhere are because I want to enter into a dialog. But the impetus for this one is just that old sheer frustration of mankind's lack of progress. I see us us having several different waves of influence in good and bad terms simultaneously. The unprecedented pwer of people to converse about these things and not form opinions in a vacuum is one great cause for cautious optimism, I believe. The promise of much more efficient technology, energy use, production of food and goods, eventual stabilization of the distribution of wealth and wages (far in the future) and even the tendency people have to work together in natural disasters possibly manifesting itself in the event of the more serious predicted effects of global warming - all reasons for hope in my mind. But the tenacity of religions, and the mixed bag of influence they effect, the history of greedy rich people, corporate control, increasing
limitations on personal liberty, general everyday violence, untold Superfund sites, the fact that we've already altered 50% of the planet's land surface...not so much. And now, I'm going to take a music and porn break, and see if I can possibly enjoy a wank. I bid you all goodnight!

[chefmike]

God created us in his image. So I do not believe we are rabid dogs.

And whose god might that be?

God created us in his image. So I do not believe we are rabid dogs.

And whose god might that be?


My god.

Any questions?

I give you credit, Tfan: you make your points intelligently. Look, I'm just frustrated. I remember years ago saying something to an animal rights friend of mine along the lines of being sick of the whole conflict. She got pretty tough with me about the irresponsibility of my attitude, and I felt like she made some historical points that were pretty persuasive. I know that part of the reason I ever make political posts anywhere are because I want to enter into a dialog. But the impetus for this one is just that old sheer frustration of mankind's lack of progress.


But there is progress. Israel, since it's modern founding, has exercised restraint with these cowards.... these children with cap guns. Israel has been the patient adult in the face of the rebellious, angry teen. It is Israel which has the power to destroy the Arab world.... yet it is Israel that has exercised control. Where the children are launching slings and suicide bombers, it is the adult which has exercised restraint.

At some point Israel HAS to reign in the children. It has to defend itself.

Restraint and control is progress compared to the unmitigated hatred of those who seek to "throw every jew into the sea".



I see us us having several different waves of influence in good and bad terms simultaneously. The unprecedented pwer of people to converse about these things and not form opinions in a vacuum is one great cause for cautious optimism, I believe. The promise of much more efficient technology, energy use, production of food and goods, eventual stabilization of the distribution of wealth and wages (far in the future) and even the tendency people have to work together in natural disasters possibly manifesting itself in the event of the more serious predicted effects of global warming - all reasons for hope in my mind. But the tenacity of religions, and the mixed bag of influence they effect, the history of greedy rich people, corporate control, increasing
limitations on personal liberty, general everyday violence, untold Superfund sites, the fact that we've already altered 50% of the planet's land surface...not so much. And now, I'm going to take a music and porn break, and see if I can possibly enjoy a wank. I bid you all goodnight!

You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot help the wage-earner by tearing down the wage-payer.
You cannot further the brotherhood of mankind by encouraging class hatred.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative.
You cannot help man permanently by doing for them what they could do and should do for themselves.

William J. H. Boetcker

[chefmike]

No questions needed, you simple sonofabitch...As the lovely and learned Ms. Starr said to you in another thread(the stem cell thread)...


I have said it before and I will say it again.

If you are ON THIS SITE, ANY PORN SITE, ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLE SITE, or you practice any form of an alternative sexual lifestyle and you support Dubya and THIS ADMINISTRATION and consider yourself to be part f the right wing or moral majority-

YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A GOOD OLE' HYPOCRITE, IN THE CLOSET, YELLOW COCKSUCKER WHO LIKES TO TAKE IT IN THE ARSE, SWALLOW JIZZ, then politely wipe your mouth go home and kiss your wife- and then HAVE NERVE to talk shit about the homos and all the other rhetoric the right wing loves to spew out.

I know this type very well, because I have lived it. Believe you me, the ones out there talking shit about fags, trannys, rasing hell, fire, and brimstome, and trying to dictate morality- are the first ones to go suck a cock behind closed doors.

HYPOCRITES. Nothing but HYPOCRITES is all I can say.

No questions needed, you simple sonofabitch...As the lovely and learned Ms. Starr said to you in another thread(the stem cell thread)...

Rude and childish on both your parts.

[specialk]

Allanah Starr wrote:

I have a suspicion who this TFan person is- it smells like YourDaddy-who was banned already.

Several people have tried this attempt like MixedPrettYGuy who is now CuteMixedGuy, but he has been in check (at least on here) otherwise he would have been gone, gone, gooooooooooooone. But there are others who are banned, lurk back and then they get chopped again.

I'll bet u anything I am right.

[suckseed]

You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot help the wage-earner by tearing down the wage-payer.
You cannot further the brotherhood of mankind by encouraging class hatred.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative.
You cannot help man permanently by doing for them what they could do and should do for themselves.

William J. H. Boetcker

Look, in a time when the greed of everyone from Walmart to Halliburton to Paris Hilton to the fools throwing million dollar parties for their spoiled brats on MTV's 'My Super Sweet Sixteen' is constantly thrown in our faces, that quote is a sick joke. What's the old statistic - 3% of the population have 97% of the money, or something similar? I will never believe that there's not a better way.
Nor am I a big fan of the Jerry Springer lowlifes. Between the two types of people, I want to move to New Zealand sometimes. I think as a people we should be doing more to build character, so that both extremes are avoided. My parents were fairly blissfully unaware of whatever I was doing growing up, and I'm hardly an example of a guy that has his shit together. But I do have a sense of decency and responsibility, and would never act like these people do.

Look, in a time when the greed of everyone from Walmart to Halliburton

Walmart was the largest corporate contributor to Hurricane Katrina so-called "victims". It stepped up with 15 MILLION of it's hard earned dollars to help people who were too stupid to get out of harms way.

How much did that chinese communist sellout Google commit? How much did Apple computer sign away? LOL



to Paris Hilton to the fools throwing million dollar parties for their spoiled brats on MTV's 'My Super Sweet Sixteen' is constantly thrown in our faces, that quote is a sick joke.

I agree. But Paris is more of a confused young lady. Unfortunately, her fathers wealth and her own naivety make her look pretty stupid.

At least she keeps her political mouth shut, unlike a young Jane Fonda or Barbara Streisand


What's the old statistic - 3% of the population have 97% of the money, or something similar? I will never believe that there's not a better way.

What concern is it of yours how much money other people have? Believe me, I'm nowhere near that 3% of the population. But I'm also not the bottom 15% of slobs who work just enough to get by.... and then blame "the system" for "holding em back".

Trust me dude, stop worrying about what you dont have and what others do have, and focus your thoughts on getting what you want in life.



Nor am I a big fan of the Jerry Springer lowlifes.

I agree on that. Guess what.

Springers a democrat. LOL!


Between the two types of people, I want to move to New Zealand sometimes.

You sound like a reasonable young man. Just work hard in life and take the hard knocks and you'll be alright.

Let the malcontents move to New Zealand (though I doubt the Kiwi's would take em). They'll have to settle for Canada's double digit unemployment.... actually, they wont have to settle for it. They'll gladly participate in it..... and blame "the man".


I think as a people we should be doing more to build character, so that both extremes are avoided. My parents were fairly blissfully unaware of whatever I was doing growing up, and I'm hardly an example of a guy that has his shit together. But I do have a sense of decency and responsibility, and would never act like these people do.


Cool.

[ilikeyasminlee]

this was written by Alan Dershowitz:

Sunday was a day of great triumph for Hezbollah. Its tactics had worked. By launching rockets at Israeli civilians within yards of a building filled with refugees, Hezbollah had induced Israel to make a terrible mistake. Its defensive rocket had missed the Hezbollah launchers and hit the civilian building. That was Hezbollah's plan all along.
As Israelis wept in grief over the deaths of the Lebanese children, Hezbollah leaders celebrated its propaganda victory.

Yes, Hezbollah was happy that an Israeli rocket had killed Lebanese children. The children were now in paradise, martyrs to Hezbollah's cause. Israel was being condemned throughout the world for "killing" children--"massacre" was the most common word used in the Arab media. The Israelis apologized, but that was not enough to put out the flames of anger or to quiet the shrill calls for revenge.

Israel produced evidence proving that it was largely Hezbollah's fault. Hezbollah was using Lebanese children as involuntary human shields--surely a war crime. Hezbollah was preventing civilians--who had been repeatedly warned by Israel to leave the battle zone--from moving out of harm's way. Hezbollah sympathizers were shown on TV defiantly tearing up the Israeli leaflets, as if to say "we're staying" Hezbollah had refused to build bomb shelters for ordinary civilians--only for their own leaders. Hezbollah knew (and Israel didn't) that children were in the so-called safe house. That is why it deliberately used the safe house as a shield behind which to five rockets at Israel. Hezbollah used its rocket launchers as "bait" to induce Israel to fire at them in order to increase the chances that Israel's rocket would misfire and hit the "safe house". It was a perfect plan. Leaders of Hezbollah knew it could count on the international community to finish its dirty work by condemning Israel, rather than Hezbollah for the deaths caused deliberately by Hezbollah.

Israel has, of course, rightly apologized for the deaths caused by its rocket. Hezbollah never apologizes for deliberately causing civilian deaths, except when the deaths are of Arab children, as was the case in Nazareth.

When it comes to Israel, a lot of usually smart people stop thinking with their heads, and start thinking with their guts. Most smart people know that when an armed criminal takes a hostage and fires from behind him, it is the criminal, not the policeman, who is guilty of murder, if the policeman, in a reasonable effort to stop the criminal from firing, accidentally kills the innocent hostage. The same should be true during wartime. But you wouldn't know it if you listened only to the singular condemnations of Israel by so many in the international community.

But not all. Just days before this Hezbollah orchestrated tragedy, Jan Egeland, the UN Undersecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs, had essential predicted it. He chided Hezbollah for being "a bunch of cowards hiding behind women and children." He said that he "cannot understand how someone could be proud that there were more women and children hurt than armed militants." And he "call[ed] for the Hezbollah to immediately stop mixing with the civilian population." But Hezbollah did not listen to Egeland. Instead they fired their Katyusha from behind the apartment in Qana knowing that it was filled with civilians.

The President of Lebanon praised Hezbollah. For what? For using its children as shields? When was the last time a leader thanked the criminal for taking a hostage who was then killed in the shootout? The Arab world, the Islamic world and the rest of the Israel-haters have now rallied behind Hezbollah. Hatred of Israel has even managed to heal the millennium long divisions between Shias and Sunnis.

Every day more Arabs and the Muslims kill other Arabs and Muslims in the Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other parts of the world than the Israelis have killed in three weeks of combat. But the international community--and the Arab world--turns a blind eye. Indeed, in the Sudan, where thousands have died, many Arab governments actually support the Sudanese government and its genocidal policies. Even "peaceful" nations, such as Egypt and Jordan, have killed more Muslim and Arab dissidents, extremists, and terrorists than Israel has--and without much protest.

The real victory for Hezbollah is that it has caused grief and dissent in Israel over the death of the children. This will cause Israel to show more "restraint", as it has already done by declaring a 48 hour cessation of air attacks. This will give the terrorists a freer hand at launching rockets. The end result will be more Israel civilian casualties. The sad truth is that the Israelis care more about the lives of innocent Lebanese children than Hezbollah does. As Golda Meir once said about her Arab enemies: "We can perhaps forgive them for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children." How prescient.

[suckseed]

That is horrible. Let me say for the record that I have no problem with Jews whatsoever. I've never been able to understand what so many people had against them in the first place. Is it just a religious thing? Like why Shiites and Sunnis fight - a difference of opinion about ancient facts that don't mean a damn thing in the face of just living and letting others live? There's a definite ring of truth to the ilikeyasminlee's last post. I'm just really wary of taking the easy way out and assuming that one side's all good and the other's all bad. Okay, so my next line of reasoning is that Arab folks are probably not bad, but Hezbollah is. Are the Lebanese people being forced to live with Hezbollah? Or do they see them as liberators? Do the Lebanese know their children were used in this way? Don't people talk? Are they all religious fanatics who welcome death? What percentage of them are moderate?
Here's a link to stories which I found educational -
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/
Oh, and for the record - I'm not a Democrat. I'm unaffiliated. I thought Bill Bradley seemed like he would have been a good president, but he didn't run - probably wisely so!

[Quinn]

Is it just a religious thing? Like why Shiites and Sunnis fight - a difference of opinion about ancient facts that don't mean a damn thing in the face of just living and letting others live?

The problem is that Islamic culture has actually become less civilized and more radical over time, rather than moderating like the other major religions. The Islam of today lacks the relative tolerance and enlightenment seen just a little over a century ago. I've seen reports by moderate Islamic organizations whose research shows that slightly more than 50% of the Muslim world is, in fact, radicalized. Believe it or not, this is a fairly recent – but rapidly accelerating – development.

-Quinn

[suckseed]

Is it just a religious thing? Like why Shiites and Sunnis fight - a difference of opinion about ancient facts that don't mean a damn thing in the face of just living and letting others live?

The problem is that Islamic culture has actually become less civilized and more radical over time, rather than moderating like the other major religions. The Islam of today lacks the relative tolerance and enlightenment seen just a little over a century ago. I've seen reports by moderate Islamic organizations whose research shows that slightly more than 50% of the Muslim world is, in fact, radicalized. Believe it or not, this is a fairly recent – but rapidly accelerating – development.

-Quinn

It's amazing and sad the way humans make progress and then lose it. Kids used to study Latin and Greek, whereas today people take a couple of classes in Spanish or French that are forgotten by most. Why do civilizing influences go out of common use? You'd think those in power would appreciate a well educated populace. Now before any of you says, "Oh no I wouldn't!", I ask you - what do those in power want that they don't already have? What does 40 million buy that 20 million doesn't? Where does the mentality of wanting the best for yourself and your family meet that of wanting a better world for your loved ones to exist? Too many of the people who have real power lack vision.