Fuck the Police State

[TempestTS]

Fuck this shit Im sick of it - every day I turn around there is another abuse of power by the jackboot Police State abusing their power to protect and serve themselves...

and dont even get me started about the department of homeland security - the last time we saw someone "protecting" the population in the name of the "Homeland" their uniforms were different colors and they had a heavy German accent.


from http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/henderson-nevada-commandeered-homes/

http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/swat-boots.jpg (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/swat-boots.jpg) (Source: Getty Images)

HENDERSON, NV — Police forcibly commandeered homes from two innocent families because they wanted to use the properties to surveil a neighbor. After their plan was denied by phone request, police conspired and executed a plan to break into the homes and arrest the innocent homeowners, a lawsuit reveals.


The incident took place on July 10th, 2011. The Henderson Police Department (HPD) was issued a complaint about suspected domestic violence. Police decided that they wanted use two neighboring houses to observe the suspect. In conjunction with the North Las Vegas Police Department (NLVPD), officers devised a plan to commandeer the home of Anthony Mitchell, as well as the home of his parents, Michael and Linda Mitchell — both living adjacent to the suspect. Each of them were innocent and uninvolved in the suspected crime.


A lawsuit states: “At 10:45 a.m. defendant Officer Christopher Worley (HPD) contacted plaintiff Anthony Mitchell via his telephone. Worley told plaintiff that police needed to occupy his home in order to gain a ‘tactical advantage’ against the occupant of the neighboring house. Anthony Mitchell told the officer that he did not want to become involved and that he did not want police to enter his residence. Although Worley continued to insist that plaintiff should leave his residence, plaintiff clearly explained that he did not intend to leave his home or to allow police to occupy his home. Worley then ended the phone call.”


Without permission, officers Christopher Worley (HPD), David Cawthorn (NLVPD), and Sgt. Michael Waller (NLVPD) allegedly plotted to take over the homes by force.


Officer Cawthorn’s official report described the plan: “It was determined to move to 367 Evening Side and attempt to contact Mitchell. If Mitchell answered the door he would be asked to leave. If he refused to leave he would be arrested for Obstructing a Police Officer. If Mitchell refused to answer the door, force entry would be made and Mitchell would be arrested.”


Police proceeded with their plan, breaching Anthony Mitchell’s front door with a battering ram. “The officers aimed their weapons at Anthony Mitchell and shouted obscenities at him and ordered him to lie down on the floor,” the complaint stated. Mitchell’s account stated that NLVPD Officer Snyder gave him conflicting orders to both shut off his phone and to “crawl,” and that Snyder called him an “asshole.”



“Although plaintiff Anthony Mitchell was lying motionless on the ground and posed no threat, officers, including Officer David Cawthorn, then fired multiple ‘pepperball’ rounds at plaintiff as he lay defenseless on the floor of his living room. Anthony Mitchell was struck at least three times by shots fired from close range, injuring him and causing him severe pain.”
Officers then arrested him for obstructing a police officer, searched the house and moved furniture without his permission and set up a place in his home for a lookout, Mitchell says in the complaint.


Anthony Mitchell alleged that police also hurt his pet dog for no reason whatsoever: “Plaintiff Anthony Mitchell’s pet, a female dog named ‘Sam,’ was cowering in the corner when officers smashed through the front door. Although the terrified animal posed no threat to officers, they gratuitously shot it with one or more pepperball rounds. The panicked animal howled in fear and pain and fled from the residence. Sam was subsequently left trapped outside in a fenced alcove without access to water, food, or shelter from the sun for much of the day, while temperatures outside soared to over 100 degrees Fahrenheit.”


Then the police turned their attention to the second home, owned by Anthony Mitchell’s parents on the same street. Police lied and lured out Michael Mitchell, the father, requesting his help to negotiate the surrender of his neighbor. In actuality he was taken to a HPD command center and not permitted to leave. When he tried to walk off, he was arrested and charged with Obstructing a Police Officer.
With Anthony and Michael Mitchell detained, police commandeered the second home, still occupied by Linda Mitchell. When she told officers that they could not enter her home without a warrant, the officers detained her, dragging her off through the desert heat to a “command post”, despite her frail condition and pleas to stop. Police then rummaged through her home, her belongings, her purse, even leaving the refrigerator ajar.


Anthony and Michael Mitchell were booked and locked in jail for obstructing an officer. They were jailed for at least nine hours before they bailed out, they stated in the complaint. They claim the police filed the baseless criminal charges “to provide cover for defendants’ wrongful actions, to frustrate and impede plaintiffs’ ability to seek relief for those actions, and to further intimidate and retaliate against plaintiffs.”


None of the officers were fired, subjected to official discipline, or even inquiry, the complaint states.

[TSLovingCouple]

I cannot agree more. I served a number of years serving in and out of a uniform out of sense of patriotism. I am ashamed of what the police are doing and what some people allow them to do.

[my my my!]

the problem here in America, is people put up with it.

where's the 20,000 strong public protest in Henderson, demanding justice for this guy?

they're all on the internet calling them "pigs" and quoting the 3rd Amendment.

truth be told. If this were my house they were "commandeering" , at least the first fucker would've been met with gunfire and hopefully I'd shoot the second cop and third and so on.

[TempestTS]

the problem here in America, is people put up with it.

where's the 20,000 strong public protest in Henderson, demanding justice for this guy?

they're all on the internet calling them "pigs" and quoting the 3rd Amendment.

truth be told. If this were my house they were "commandeering" , at least the first fucker would've been met with gunfire and hopefully I'd shoot the second cop and third and so on.

have you seen the abuse of power lately - its not the 60's anymore - the police state is as heavily armed as the military and largely given free reign to lock anyone up who speaks out - for most the internet is the only safe place left to speak out. They have the guns and they have instilled a culture of fear where people are afraid to speak out or rise up.

But that all only goes so far before a population rises up - history proves that and the despots fear the truth in the numbers. I hope Im there the day the turn in power finally happens.

Im not a big gun advocate but the reason we have the right to arm ourselves is against a corrupt and oppressive state - which is exactly what we are becoming - the change was slow at first but now the government and police state act with impunity and recklessly flaunt their power.... thousands of cops to stop a few hundred McDonald's employees from protesting unfair wages... citizens in wheel chairs arrested for using the side of the road to go to the grocery store to get food. Teens beaten and pepper-sprayed for using their photos to video the actions of the cops.

If the actions of those who are to enforce the laws break the very same laws they should be stripped of the right to act as our protectors by whatever means necessary. - if your not already on a government or NSA watch list you are either doing something wrong or your a sheep.

[Erika1487]

Fuck the police

[bimale69]

Some of these states like New York are even passing laws where you could be locked up just for even looking at a cop wrong. I usually try to avoid driving through Upstate NY anymore because the state police like to sit in every rest area through that place pulling trucks in just for "safety" inspections, and use a very intimidating attitude like they suspect everyone of being a criminal. Worse yet is if they gain any knowledge of you being a member of the GLBT community....then they turn into complete Nazis. There's also a video on YouTube somewhere (assuming the state hasn't had it taken down) of NY state troopers storming an Indian reservation when tribe members where having a peaceful protest over NY's violation of Indian treaties, and the Troopers start beating beating people (including women and kids) with their night sticks for no reason. That was back in the late 90's , and that situation has gotten worse after 9/11.

[TempestTS]

Some of these states like New York are even passing laws where you could be locked up just for even looking at a cop wrong. I usually try to avoid driving through Upstate NY anymore because the state police like to sit in every rest area through that place pulling trucks in just for "safety" inspections, and use a very intimidating attitude like they suspect everyone of being a criminal. Worse yet is if they gain any knowledge of you being a member of the GLBT community....then they turn into complete Nazis. There's also a video on YouTube somewhere (assuming the state hasn't had it taken down) of NY state troopers storming an Indian reservation when tribe members where having a peaceful protest over NY's violation of Indian treaties, and the Troopers start beating beating people (including women and kids) with their night sticks for no reason. That was back in the late 90's , and that situation has gotten worse after 9/11.

Very interesting especially given that a Native American Reservation is technically a sovereign nation -

[Rabbiteyes]

You have 2 options ....

1) Learn to live with it and keep your head down (you can mitigate a lot of trouble by being more wealthy and influential).

2) Leave the country.


Things aren't going to improve :P

[Chaos]

truth be told. If this were my house they were "commandeering" , at least the first fucker would've been met with gunfire and hopefully I'd shoot the second cop and third and so on.

Actually you'd be dead as soon as you fired one shot. Police are armed with Military grade equipment....some even have APC's and tanks these days.

[TempestTS]

You have 2 options ....

1) Learn to live with it and keep your head down (you can mitigate a lot of trouble by being more wealthy and influential).

2) Leave the country.


Things aren't going to improve :P
'

No!

I would Never make it that convenient for them.

[TempestTS]

Actually you'd be dead as soon as you fired one shot. Police are armed with Military grade equipment....some even have APC's and tanks these days.

Thats because the only thing they have is fear and guns - we have the numbers and that's where the true power lies -

Look at a cop at a protest - every bit of armor the put on - every big APC they drive up in and and every gun and grenade the strap on to themselves is a sign of exactly how terrified they are of the rest of the population - we could throw them all out of power in a heartbeat if we really wanted to.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

[Jimmy W]

Lots of words + No Pictures = On to the LadyBoys

[TempestTS]

Lots of words + No Pictures = On to the LadyBoys

You do realize that the police state isnt a big fan of GLBT rights - you do want us around to be in those photos right ?

[Jimmy W]

Photos - Yes.....Rants - Not really....

[scroller]

I will trump this old story with news from the last 48 hours -- A 17-year-old boy in Manassas, VA trades sexting pics with his 15-year-old girlfriend, resulting in charges filed for child porn possession and production (of himself; which may, you know, lead to lifelong listing in a sex offender registry). To bolster the case, police gain a search warrant to forcibly strip him naked, inject his penis with a chemical to force an erection, and then take pictures to document what he looks like. After some public shaming, the police now say they will not carry out the warrant, but the prosecutor still plans to carry through with the child porn charges.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/07/09/in-sexting-case-manassas-city-police-want-to-photograph-teen-in-sexually-explicit-manner-lawyers-say/

[TempestTS]

Photos - Yes.....Rants - Not really....

then why are you reading this?

the obvious irony of that is probably wasted as well

[danthepoetman]

You know, there is a very simple solution to all of this! Very simple! Dramatically simple. STOP VOTING FOR THE REPUBLICANS!! STOP ELECTING REPUBLICANS IN THE TWO CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!
It shouldn't take a genius. This all started during the Reagan era and is part of the hard right agenda.
Secondly, stop giving in to pop vogue and declaring yourself a "Libertarian"! The American political system is a bi-partisan one. Whatever you do or think will favor either one or the other. If you really want no State, no government, you side up and tremendously help the hard right, which hope is precisely the disapearance of any type of regulation (see Tea party).
It already has reached such fantastic proportions its totally mind boggling. There is something like 900 hard, swat team police bust every day in US private homes. Police forces today are all equiped with military supplies and all have tactical units. 1 person out of 4 who's in jail on planet earth is in jail in the US. America jails more of its citizens than all the supposedly "bad guys" it looks upon as evil: more than Iran, more than China, more than Russia, etc. America indeed counts 24% of the entire world carceral population!
And this has started only 35 years ago, with the Republican great push and Karl Roves strategy. It simply keeps on going like the energizer rabbit, despite the presidency of some good, competent Democrats, because people keep voting Republican in both houses.

[TempestTS]

You know, there is a very simple solution to all of this! Very simple! Dramatically simple. STOP VOTING FOR THE REPUBLICANS!! STOP ELECTING REPUBLICANS IN THE TWO CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!
It shouldn't take a genius. This all started during the Reagan era and is part of the hard right agenda.
Secondly, stop giving in to pop vogue and declaring yourself a "Libertarian"! The American political system is a bi-partisan one. Whatever you do or think will favor either one or the other. If you really want no State, no government, you side up and tremendously help the hard right, which hope is precisely the disapearance of any type of regulation (see Tea party).
It already has reached such fantastic proportions its totally mind boggling. There is something like 900 hard, swat team police bust every day in US private homes. Police forces today are all equiped with military supplies and all have tactical units. 1 person out of 4 who's in jail on planet earth is in jail in the US. America jails more of its citizens than all the supposedly "bad guys" it looks upon as evil: more than Iran, more than China, more than Russia, etc. America indeed counts 24% of the entire world carceral population!
And this has started only 35 years ago, with the Republican great push and Karl Roves strategy. It simply keeps on going like the energizer rabbit, despite the presidency of some good, competent Democrats, because people keep voting Republican in both houses.


Im starting to realize that there is very little difference between republicans and democrats beyond the color of tie they wear. They all answer to a shadow government made up of corporations and banks. There is no real power in politics.

The national defense authorization act conducted its first joint Military and Civil Police training exercise a while back - guess where they used as their training ground - the US bank building in LA.... now what would they be training to protect? I wonder....

As Jim Morrison said - ?Five to One Baby, One in Five"

[danthepoetman]

Im starting to realize that there is very little difference between republicans and democrats beyond the color of tie they wear. They all answer to a shadow government made up of corporations and banks. There is no real power in politics.

The national defense authorization act conducted its first joint Military and Civil Police training exercise a while back - guess where they used as their training ground - the US bank building in LA.... now what would they be training to protect? I wonder....

As Jim Morrison said - ?Five to One Baby, One in Five"

I have to disagree, Tempest. And in my opinion, this type of confusion is part of the problem. Yes, political parties in a bi-partisan system will necessarely defend money interrests. But that doesn't mean both are alike and defends the same values. If you put both in the same bag, you abandon all hope, which is what intelligent people (like you) do when they give in to the "Libertarian" vogue (with the bulk of other libertarians being cuckoos, conspirationists, little green men abductees, people who think 9-11 was a ste-up, etc.). You have to be able to make the difference between people who will favor money powers for the embetterment of the national economy from people who couldn't care less about the population. Let me give you a very good example of how this all started with reaganism:

[TempestTS]

I have to disagree, Tempest. And in my opinion, this type of confusion is part of the problem. Yes, political parties in a bi-partisan system will necessarely defend money interrests. But that doesn't mean both are alike and defends the same values. If you put both in the same bag, you abandon all hope, which is what intelligent people (like you) do when they give in to the "Libertarian" vogue (with the bulk of other libertarians being cuckoos, conspirationists, little green men abductees, people who think 9-11 was a ste-up, etc.). You have to be able to make the difference between people who will favor money powers for the embetterment of the national economy from people who couldn't care less about the population. Let me give you a very good example of how this all started with reaganism:

Two words (well 3 if you get rid of the hyphen)

"For-Profit Prisons"

it was in the works long before Regan

Follow the money - thats who put it into play - the person sitting in office is just a puppet - just look at Obama and what he's let the NSA run wild with - do you know what their budget is - do you know who is making fortunes off of the state paranoia

All wars have been bankers wars - many funded both sides at the same time. They didnt care who won just who spent. Now who do you think is making a fortune off the spending of the police state - and who does the police state protect?

[danthepoetman]

:) ...

[Pelheckitt]

The NSA, DHS, the militarization of local police forces the suspension of posse comitatus. For Christ sakes the Department of Agricultural has a freaking S.W.A.T team, the DHS alone has purchased 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition and for what?

The erosion of individual rights is the scariest thing of all.

[TempestTS]

The NSA, DHS, the militarization of local police forces the suspension of posse comitatus. For Christ sakes the Department of Agricultural has a freaking S.W.A.T team, the DHS alone has purchased 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition and for what?

The erosion of individual rights is the scariest thing of all.

Exactly, they took a long time slowly removing rights and safe guards but the slope has gotten much steeper lately and things are speeding up exponentially

[bimale69]

Very interesting especially given that a Native American Reservation is technically a sovereign nation -

Unfortunately the NYS government conveniently ignores that fact. I saw a news story a few years back that the state DHS was actually fearing a reprisal by the Indian tribes, and even planning para-military measures just in case. its basically at a hair trigger now.

[TempestTS]

Unfortunately the NYS government conveniently ignores that fact. I saw a news story a few years back that the state DHS was actually fearing a reprisal by the Indian tribes, and even planning para-military measures just in case. its basically at a hair trigger now.

Im part Cherokee - the us government has been ignoring its words for over two centuries now - apparently the police state today is an indication its just ran out of other races to persecute so now its turned on its own.

[wearboots4me]

I will trump this old story with news from the last 48 hours -- A 17-year-old boy in Manassas, VA trades sexting pics with his 15-year-old girlfriend, resulting in charges filed for child porn possession and production (of himself; which may, you know, lead to lifelong listing in a sex offender registry). To bolster the case, police gain a search warrant to forcibly strip him naked, inject his penis with a chemical to force an erection, and then take pictures to document what he looks like. After some public shaming, the police now say they will not carry out the warrant, but the prosecutor still plans to carry through with the child porn charges.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/07/09/in-sexting-case-manassas-city-police-want-to-photograph-teen-in-sexually-explicit-manner-lawyers-say/

That is disturbing.

[TempestTS]

That is disturbing.

Quite disturbing indeed - Ive followed that story - they were going to chemically induce an erection in the teen so they could photograph his penis for evidence.

The mere threat of that should be held at a minimum of harassment and child abuse - the prosecuter, police and judge who signed the warrant should face charges !

[TempestTS]

and in the news where I live

- a 'No knock' warrant harasses a family - destroys property and kills two pets in front of kids to seize a glass bong and a grinder containing marijuana residue.

Violent SWAT raid leaves St. Paul family traumatized, two pets shot dead

"I really thought I was being murdered," said the father-of-two.

Posted on July 11, 2014 by Site Staff (http://www.policestateusa.com/author/psusa/) in News (http://www.policestateusa.com/category/news/)
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arman-Perry-raid-3.png (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arman-Perry-raid-3.png) Mello and Laylo, both killed by the St. Paul SWAT. (Source: KMSP (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25981713/st-paul-police-shoot-kill-2-family-dogs-in-swat-raid))

ST. PAUL, MN — A SWAT team left a family traumatized and mourning the loss of two beloved family pets that were abruptly gunned down in their living room during a surprise morning raid. In the wake of their devastation, police walked away with enough evidence to issue a $200 ticket.
At approximately 7:00 a.m. on Wednesday, July 9th, the home of Camille Perry and Larry Lee Arman was breached with a battering ram, and strange men charged in with rifles and opened fire on their pets.
Mr. Arman, owner of a towing business, says he was laying asleep when he heard the front door breached and then the gunfire.
“The first thing I heard was ‘boom,’” he recalled to KMSP (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25981713/st-paul-police-shoot-kill-2-family-dogs-in-swat-raid). “Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. Right in front of us.”
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arman-Perry-raid-1-300x151.png (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arman-Perry-raid-1.png) Larry Lee Arman demonstrates where he was during the violent raid. (Source: KMSP (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25981713/st-paul-police-shoot-kill-2-family-dogs-in-swat-raid))

“I was laying right here, and I really thought I was being murdered,” Mr. Arman recalled.
Arman’s girlfriend Camille, who is 8-months pregnant, ran frantically to protect their two sons, ages 4 and 7. She contends that the sleeping children were directly in line with the attacks from police, as they shot her dog as it retreated.
“The gunshots scared the living daylights out of me, and knowing that they were in such close range of the dog and where we were laying with my kids made it worse,” Perry said to the Pioneer Press (http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_26127041/swat-unit-kills-st-paul-familys-2-dogs). “Our oldest dog actually ran back to protect us in front of the bed and they kept shooting her, even though we were laying right there.”
When the gun smoke cleared, it was evident that the invaders were members of the St. Paul SWAT team.
The hail of bullets unleashed into their two pet dogs, Mellow and Laylo, had killed them both. Blood was splattered all over the living room, staining the carpet and a pair of shoes.
“One was running for her life, and they murdered her right here,” Mr. Arman said to KMSP.
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arman-Perry-raid-2-300x151.png (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arman-Perry-raid-2.png) Larry Lee Arman’s broken door after experiencing a battering ram. (Source: KMSP (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25981713/st-paul-police-shoot-kill-2-family-dogs-in-swat-raid))

Officers proceeded to tear the house apart for hours. Besides the two dead dogs, the extensive damages included multiple broken doors, broken door frames, and walls with the insulation and vents ripped out. All damages were left to the homeowner to cover.
The 4-year-old son was quoted as innocently asking, “Did you see all the soldiers?”
Arman and Perry were left scratching their heads as to why they were targeted. Mr. Arman admits that he uses marijuana recreationally, but there was no need to breach his door and shoot up his home.
The warrant stated that police were to seize drugs and weapons. The officer responsible for providing the supporting affidavit to acquire the search warrant was Officer Matthew Severance.
The police recovered a water pipe and some marijuana residue. According to Minnesota law (http://www.drugpossessionlaws.com/minnesota/marijuana/), small amounts of marijuana are considered petty misdemeanors, and are punished with at $200 fine. Cops also made off with some of Arman’s clothes and some of his cash.
The community was wholly shocked at the SWAT teams actions, appalled at the deaths of dogs that were “full of love,” according to neighbors, and then dumped on the side of the road like “pieces of meat.”
Police claimed their lives were in danger from the pets, who were “an immediate threat to officers” performing official government business. There has been no indication that the department sees anything wrong with the raid or that anyone involved might be fired or disciplined in any way. This was by the book.
See an interview conducted with the family by KMSP-TV:

KMSP-TV (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com) Accountability Checkhttp://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Alert_HandBlinking.gif (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Alert_HandBlinking.gif)
St. Paul Police Department (http://www.stpaul.gov/Directory.aspx?DID=6) (Minnesota)
Facebook: Link (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Saint-Paul-MN/St-Paul-Police-Department/94537259165)

[trish]

Who is responsible for the War on Drugs?
The War on Terrorism?
The War on Illegal Immigration?
The Escalation of Arms in America?

It’s all Obama’s fault.

[danthepoetman]

Who is responsible for the War on Drugs?
The War on Terrorism?
The War on Illegal Immigration?
The Escalation of Arms in America?

It’s all Obama’s fault.

Exactly. There is one turning point which is absolutely obvious. Once again...

[trish]

Who is responsible for the War on Crime? The privatization of prison?
The electorate. You ARE the government. We govern ourselves through elected representatives. If you don't want for profit prisons don't elect representatives who support them. If you don't want homeland security arming ordinary city police with state of the art armor and arms, don't vote for the people who put that shit in place to begin with. We are the government. Those who are too lazy, or too distracted, or would just rather not participate in meaningful self government, will be governed by those who do participate.

[johnlinzer]

You have 2 options ....

1) Learn to live with it and keep your head down (you can mitigate a lot of trouble by being more wealthy and influential).

2) Leave the country.


Things aren't going to improve :P

Well, actually there is a third option that is guaranteed by the first and second amendments. I don't like it. I hope it never comes to it, but sooner or later it probably will.

[danthepoetman]

The so-called War on Drugs in particular has dramatic effects. They now bust into homes with tactical units regularly for simple possession. A bag of a few grams of pot is often sufficent to do so! The militaro-industrial complex has penetrated the police forces. Policing is now engaged, because of this "war", in the same kind of vicious circle the military is traped in. And the solution is simple. So simple.

[TempestTS]

Who is responsible for the War on Crime? The privatization of prison?
The electorate. You ARE the government. We govern ourselves through elected representatives. If you don't want for profit prisons don't elect representatives who support them. If you don't want homeland security arming ordinary city police with state of the art armor and arms, don't vote for the people who put that shit in place to begin with. We are the government. Those who are too lazy, or too distracted, or would just rather not participate in meaningful self government, will be governed by those who do participate.

The greatest trick that our government ever pulled off was making you think your vote counted.


The system is hopelessly fucked - Iceland threw out its government and locked up its bankers and is now the first country in the world to run completely off of renewable energy. And they didnt do it with voting - Im more than willing to participate - but its probably not in the way that your thinking.

[johnlinzer]

Exactly. There is one turning point which is absolutely obvious. Once again...

Did you know that according to the FBI the amount of violent crime in this country as decreased by an amazing 50% in the past twenty years? When I look at the graphs you supplied, I can't help seeing the correlation.

[trish]

The greatest trick that our government ever pulled off was making you think your vote counted.Bullshit! The greatest tricked being pulled on Americans everyday is the promulgation of the lie that their vote doesn't count. Why do you think the GOP is so concerned with voter ID when there is no significant record of voter fraud? It's all about voter suppression. Why do the parties, interest groups and candidates spend billions on ad campaigns? It's because VOTES MEAN EVERYTHING. We elect the government. You don't have to collect an arsenal and take up arms. You just need to read, listen, learn, discuss, participate and vote.

[TempestTS]

I couldnt agree more - Silence means Death - stand on your feet.

- twenty years ago they were talking about china and Brazil - today this scene looks very familiar right here in what's left of America

Sepultura - Refuse/Resist [OFFICIAL VIDEO] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ODNxy3YOPU)



Originally Posted by Rabbiteyes http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/ca_serenity/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1508575#post1508575) You have 2 options ....

1) Learn to live with it and keep your head down (you can mitigate a lot of trouble by being more wealthy and influential).

2) Leave the country.


Things aren't going to improve :P
-----
Well, actually there is a third option that is guaranteed by the first and second amendments. I don't like it. I hope it never comes to it, but sooner or later it probably will.

[maxpower]

Did you know that according to the FBI the amount of violent crime in this country as decreased by an amazing 50% in the past twenty years? When I look at the graphs you supplied, I can't help seeing the correlation.


So, you're saying the ends justify the means?

[TempestTS]

Well, actually there is a third option that is guaranteed by the first and second amendments. I don't like it. I hope it never comes to it, but sooner or later it probably will.


Bullshit! The greatest tricked being pulled on Americans everyday is the promulgation of the lie that their vote doesn't count. Why do you think the GOP is so concerned with voter ID when there is no significant record of voter fraud? It's all about voter suppression. Why do the parties, interest groups and candidates spend billions on ad campaigns? It's because VOTES MEAN EVERYTHING. We elect the government. You don't have to collect an arsenal and take arms. You just need to read, listen, learn, discuss, participate and vote.

Bullshit on your bullshit call - you seem to think the billions spent on candidates goes to only one party ??? Seriously ??? - you think that police state spending has decreased under democratic leadership ??? You think the NSA has had powers reduced in any meaningful way under the current leaderhsip ??? our leaders - ALL OF THEM - were bought and paid for long before the election was even held.

Read something besides what the mainstream "B" side media feed you - its much deeper than the two party system or liberal vs conservative

I applaud your faith in the system - I just find it woefully misplaced - it hasnt changed anything substantial in over 50 years, possibly more than 100.

[trish]

you seem to think the billions spent on candidates goes to only one party ??? Did I say that? Let's check. I asked, "Why do parties(notice the plural)...spend billions..." The answer is because we're a democratic-republic with an elected government that is replaced piecemeal on an ongoing basis. VOTES ARE EVERYTHING.

My faith in the system extends only as far as my faith in the electorate, which is depressingly small and all too often willfully ignorant.

[my my my!]

Actually you'd be dead as soon as you fired one shot. Police are armed with Military grade equipment....some even have APC's and tanks these days.


If they barged in uninvited, at the very least the first cop would die. that's why I said maybe the 2nd too and If I'm lucky a 3rd or 4th. but most likely , yes I would die after killing the first one.

[TempestTS]

Did I say that? Let's check. I asked, "Why do parties(notice the plural)...spend billions..." The answer is because we're a democratic-republic with an elected government that is replaced piecemeal on an ongoing basis. VOTES ARE EVERYTHING.

My faith in the system extends only as far as my faith in the electorate, which is depressingly small and all too often willfully ignorant.

In any election in over the past 50 years there have been only two Viable candidates with any reasonable hope of winning - both are heavily sponsored by special interest groups, corporations and banks - bought and paid for. So tell me again how anyones vote matters?

I dont argue that a large chunk of our population is willfully ignorant and lazy and failed to utilize the power of its vote - I argue that the time that the situation could be changed by voting has long slipped through our fingers and you are mistaking a history lesson for the current state of our government.

John Kay - Steppenwolf - "It sure is fun to watch a President run - just ask the man who owns one"

[TempestTS]

If they barged in uninvited, at the very least the first cop would die. that's why I said maybe the 2nd too and If I'm lucky a 3rd or 4th. but most likely , yes I would die after killing the first one.

Actually a man was vindicated as acting in self defense for shooting at police when they executed a "No Knock" warrant and barged in because he had no way to know who it was that burst in.

[Jericho]

Apparently, this is to protect "me".
Gee, thanks...But, no thanks!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28237108

Emergency phone and internet data storage law to be brought in

Nick Robinson explains on Daily Politics why there is a rush to bring in the new law

Emergency legislation will be brought in next week to force phone and internet companies to log records of customer calls, texts and internet use.

Ministers say it is necessary so police and security services can access the data they need after a legal ruling which declared existing powers invalid.

The proposed law has the backing of Labour and the coalition parties.

A special cabinet is being held to agree the planned laws, which will only last until 2016.

Prime Minister David Cameron and his Lib Dem Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg will tell a special cabinet meeting on Thursday that emergency legislation is necessary to keep the country safe.

A recent ruling of the European Court of Justice has removed the obligation on telecoms companies to retain records of when and who their customers have called, texted and emailed.

Without a new law Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg will claim that that information could be destroyed within weeks by companies fearing legal challenges.

Labour is backing emergency legislation after all-party talks agreed that this law would enshrine existing rights and not be used to extend them by re-introducing the so-called "snoopers charter".

It will also bring in so-called safeguards including:

The creation of a new Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board to examine the impact of the law on privacy and civil liberties
A review of the controversial RIPA - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act
Annual government transparency reports on how these powers are used
The law will include a so-called sunset clause - ensuring that these powers will die in 2016 - so there will be a longer and wider debate about what replaces them.

Critics will no doubt argue that the time for that debate is now. To pass any new law in just a week is rare. So too is it to have the backing of all three main parties even before it is published.

On a subject as sensitive as giving the police and security services access to phone and internet data this is bound to be controversial.

Update 08:45 BST: The emergency legislation will oblige telecom firms to retain data for 12 months. Under the European law which it replaces companies could be asked to retain data for 24 months.

More controversially the new law will also produce what is being described as a "clearer legal framework" to allow access to the content of calls, texts and emails after a warrant is signed by a senior government minister. Telecoms companies are said to have warned ministers that after the Edward Snowden revelations they are vulnerable to legal challenge by their customers.

The Labour MP Tom Watson has condemned the plans as a "stitch up" which prevent MPs from considering the legislation properly

[Toots1989]

Snip

For us in the UK, it is no surprise really. Seems the current government really is taking George Orwells 1984 to heart + we already pretty much have CCTV on every street. We also have no idea how much we already have been recorded or what extent the NSA/CIA have been spying on people of the UK, let alone those in the USA.

Couple that with the paranoia of having to have charged electrical gadgets on flights leaving/ entering the UK for these 'apparent' new bomb methods.

Police in the UK are gladly mostly not armed. Although doesn't stop them from screwing up or framing people. Death of Mark Duggan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan) (Which Caused London Riots) and Death of Jean Charles de Menezes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes) (Country already on High alert after 7th July 2005 bombings.

[trish]

And why does a candidate need wealthy sponsors? To get their word out to the electorate. Because VOTES ARE EVERYTHING. Why is it so difficult and expensive to get your word out? One would think a simple appeal, a simple set of arguments and counter arguments would do. Why doesn't it? Because the electorate isn't paying attention. Isn't up to date, lazy and distracted. Hence they can be swayed by spin, anecdotes, distortions and lies. Marketing is more expensive than just putting forward a simple argument. We elect the government. If we don't like it, then we don't have to elect the same representatives again.

I agree that currently ours is basically a two party system. But parties can change their faces and be taken over. Both parties have shifted rightward over the last half century. Yet things change. Do you think the legal status of same sex marriage is changing because of evolving political ideologies, or because of the changing attitude of the electorate? The party ideologies will eventually change to accommodate social mores of the electorate. Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes not. But in a democratic-republic like ours, it's the vote that counts.

[TempestTS]

And why does a candidate need wealthy sponsors?
.

To Buy Votes - which is effectively what they are doing.

Cap election spending at 100,000 or simply provide a fixed platform and let everyone argue their case.

Think things would change?

Hell yes and in a big hurry - the system in its current state would crumble as fast as elections were held.

Im not saying that voting cant count - Im saying it currently does not and wont until the whole system is flushed down the toilet and gets to reinvent itself. The current police state has been put in place to keep the population docile and in fear of too much rebellion to keep the system in place.

Why is same sex marriage becoming legal - because its a large body of people with a lot of MONEY that the politicians need to buy elections under the current system - the vote portion is just Symantec at this point, its barely an illusion anymore and most of us know it.

[trish]

Has anyone bought your vote? No one bought mine. Do you really think votes are bought? People can be stupid. They can be swayed by distortions and marketing tricks. But no one is buying votes. No doubt some candidate would like to buy votes. But why would a politician want to buy a vote if votes don't count? There's a conundrum. It's because...

Power resides ultimately in the electorate. Candidates for every office pander to the electorate. Gerrymander the electorate. Spin the electorate. Spend money persuading the electorate. Make promises to the electorate. Lie to the electorate. Flip-flop for the electorate. Shake hands with the electorate and kiss their ugly babies. Special interests, corporations, banks and unions fund these activities. Why? Because the electorate chooses our leaders. They choose their party's leaders, the leaders, judges etc. of their local governments, their State government, their Federal representatives and on up the hierarchy.

[trish]

I do agree with spending caps on political campaigns. I don't vote for candidates who oppose them. Who appointed the Judges who ruled corporations are people and can contribute enormous sums in political campaigns. Don't vote for those guys.

Don't kid yourself. If the general populace wasn't changing its attitude to same sex marriage, there would be no State laws anywhere protecting it, regardless of money. The money is there because social mores are changing, not vice versa.

[trish]

Gotta go. It was fun talking with you.

[TempestTS]

Has anyone bought your vote? No one bought mine. Do you really think votes are bought? People can be stupid. They can be swayed by distortions and marketing tricks. But no one is buying votes. No doubt some candidate would like to buy votes. But why would a politician want to buy a vote if votes don't count? There's a conundrum. It's because...

Power resides ultimately in the electorate. Candidates for every office pander to the electorate. Gerrymander the electorate. Spin the electorate. Spend money persuading the electorate. Make promises to the electorate. Lie to the electorate. Flip-flop for the electorate. Shake hands with the electorate and kiss their ugly babies. Special interests, corporations, banks and unions fund these activities. Why? Because the electorate chooses our leaders. They choose their party's leaders, the leaders, judges etc. of their local governments, their State government, their Federal representatives and on up the hierarchy.

Once again voting is just semantics these days - its the high powered expensive ad campaign that does the trick - hell the last 4 elections actually had news agencies talking about how much the other candidate needed to spend to win.

Did they buy your vote? - not likely -
Did they buy mine? - not for a long time but Im guilty of listening to the hype on occasion.
Did they buy millions of other votes all across the country - hell yes - believe anything else and I'd call you ignorant and you dont seem to be that.

Why would they want to buy votes - they only do it because granting the people the illusion that their voice counts is extremely valuable to any leader anywhere in the world - even dictators talk about being instrument of the voice of their people, its just a bit more of a clear cut lie in their case - we here in 'merica prefer to keep our lack of individual power well concealed behind the smoke and mirrors of the election game.

back to the point at hand - the police state serves to make sure the people in power stay in power - thats why you see protests of McDonalds, Disneyland and the Occupy Movement met with such mass police force.

You can camp out all night long to buy the new playstation or Xbox - or you can stand in line for days for an NFL ticket but just dont try to camp over night if your protesting Wallstreet or you will be arrested and if you are upside down on your mortgage the police show up to make sure the bank gets to take your house.

Little fact - there are more foreclosed Empty homes in the US than there are homeless people - and homelessness is being made a crime - how Fucked up is that ? so yes fuck the system and especially fuck the police state for being a tool of the banks and corporations.

[TempestTS]

From PolicestateUSA.com

Police faked 9-1-1 phone calls to warrantlessly search homes

Officers entered properties by claiming emergency calls were made, except they weren't.



DURHAM, NC — A dubious police tactic has come to light, in which officers used falsified information in order to gain ‘consent’ to search private properties without a warrant.
Officers in Durham have apparently discovered that they can create the legal pretext for a search by lying about calls to 9-1-1 emergency services that never actually took place. The tactic is apparently legal — and commonplace — according to an officer’s sworn statements. WTVD-TV explains (http://abc11.com/news/i-team-dpd-accused-of--faking-911-calls/172684/):
A Durham police officer admitted under oath that he lied in order to gain entry to a home and to serve an outstanding warrant.
During a court hearing last May, court officials say he told a District Court judge that it was a common practice within Durham’s police department.
He said he knocked on a resident’s door, claiming police had received a 9-1-1 hang up call. But, it never happened.
The tactic was pervasive enough for the Durham police chief to issue a department memo immediately calling for its disuse:
It has recently been brought to my attention that some officers have informed citizens that there has been a 911 hang-up call from their residence in order to obtain consent to enter for the actual purpose of looking for wanted persons on outstanding warrants. Effective immediately no officer will inform a citizen that there has been any call to the emergency communications center, including a hang-up call, when there in fact has been no such call.
– Jose L. Lopez, Sr., Chief of Police
Chief Lopez deserves credit for rejecting the practice within his department. But the situation is troubling and raises many questions. But how pervasive is the tactic elsewhere? What can protect people in other jurisdictions from being searched using deception?
Is this one of those situations that qualifies as an “unreasonable search” which is prohibited under the 4th Amendment?
See more details regarding the Durham case via WTVD-TV:

Accountability Checkhttp://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Alert_HandBlinking.gif (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Alert_HandBlinking.gif)
Durham Police Department (http://www.durhampolice.com/) (North Carolina)

[TempestTS]

Homeland security and Swat swarm small town school grounds in unannounced show of force http://www.infowars.com/homeland-security-feds-swarm-small-town-in-bizarre-unannounced-show-of-force/ … (http://t.co/sfIOtRaYtl)

[trish]

Once again voting is just semantics these days - its the high powered expensive ad campaign that does the trick - hell the last 4 elections actually had news agencies talking about how much the other candidate needed to spend to win.Semantics establishes the connection between words and their meanings. To twist the semantics is to twist and distort the truth. That's exactly what the claim that Americans are selling their votes is: a distortion and a falsehood. I agree that many Americans are stupid, are easily snookered and fooled into voting against their interests. But this is so because their votes count.


Why would they want to buy votes - they only do it because granting the people the illusion that their voice counts is extremely valuable to any leader anywhere in the world - even dictators talk about being instrument of the voice of their people, its just a bit more of a clear cut lie in their case - we here in 'merica prefer to keep our lack of individual power well concealed behind the smoke and mirrors of the election game.This is pure nonsense and you know it. Votes are tallied. They're checked. When the count is close they're challenged and recounted. To the winner of popular vote (with the sole exception of the office of president) goes the office.

Too many people today are willing to spend their money and waste their time storing ammo and stockading guns, fantasizing about a never to be realized revolution against taxes and the government, but ask them to run for local office where they can make a difference or just take part in the political process and it's "I'm too busy, besides I'll have no real effect and besides nobody's vote counts, they're all bought." That's bull.

Why do politicians campaign for your vote? It's simple. They need it (they need a lot of them) to acquire (or to stay in) office.

[TempestTS]

You say Americans are not selling their vote but have already acknowledged that they are largely influenced by which of the two biggest spenders tells them a lie closest to what they want to hear.

Spending = media = mental attitudes = votes

And you said it wasnt about semantics... I beg to differ

When the manipulated in such fashion the tally of the votes is little more than book keeping to see which of the biggest spenders won which renders the actual action meaningless.

Revolutions happen every day - As I recall the British Empire thought a revolution in the colonies was an impossible dream as well.

Why did Jesse Ventura refuse to run for president - because as an independant he lacks the major funding to get the media attention to get in the debates or stand a reasonable chance of reaching enough people to ever win. Without money it cant be done - now why would money matter - oh yeah because it is used to buy media campaigns - the vote is purely academic at this point.

Want me to prove my point - when was the last time someone other than the Two major parties won a presidential election???

Yeah i thought so...




Semantics establishes the connection between words and their meanings. To twist the semantics is to twist and distort the truth. That's exactly what the claim that Americans are selling their votes is: a distortion and a falsehood. I agree that many Americans are stupid, are easily snookered and fooled into voting against their interests. But this is so because their votes count.

This is pure nonsense and you know it. Votes are tallied. They're checked. When the count is close they're challenged and recounted. To the winner of popular vote (with the sole exception of the office of president) goes the office.

Too many people today are willing to spend their money and waste their time storing ammo and stockading guns, fantasizing about a never to be realized revolution against taxes and the government, but ask them to run for local office where they can make a difference or just take part in the political process and it's "I'm too busy, besides I'll have no real effect and besides nobody's vote counts, they're all bought." That's bull.

Why do politicians campaign for your vote? It's simple. They need it (they need a lot of them) to acquire (or to stay in) office.

[trish]

If your point is that Americans are selling their votes, then you failed to prove it, Jesse Venture notwithstanding. Of course we have a two party system. So what? We should get out the guns and have a revolution because third party candidates like Ralph Nader and wannabes like Jesse Ventura are unlikely to win? Thank the Gods they're unlikely to win.

Money buys media time. (I prefer to use the equality sign for what is actually means...that's semantics) Media time increases contact with voters. Why do that? Because VOTES COUNT. Elections are held to elect leaders.

The ultimate power is with the electorate, if they'd would only recognize it. If a people are too lazy to do the research; too lazy to take part in the political life of their municipality, state and nation; too lazy to govern themselves, then they will be governed by those people who have the initiative to do so.

[TempestTS]

Citizens are not selling their votes - but the votes are being bought just the same. The wealthy and the powerful along with corporations and banks and the politicians they pay to get in office see the public as a commodity - dont think for a second they dont, look at any demographic spread sheet.

elections are held to give the illusion that we as individuals have some say in government - we dont - millions and millions have been outraged at the actions of the NSA - anything changed - nope they just refuse to comment on their actions. Courts rules that the no fly list and appeal process was unconstitutional but its still in effect - they just are ignoring the judges.

Money equates to media which equates to influence which in turn generates votes. ie Money is the only thing that matters in the whole equation take it out and you get nothing that follows it which renders Votes purely a result of money spent. I prefer use = because I prefer the purity of mathematics and logic as opposed to mincing words for things that they are not.

They people who have incentive to govern are the powers behind the money - the politicians are puppets to corporations and banks which wield the real power and influence. Most of the nation freely admits knowing this regardless of which political party they are with. You however seem to be holding onto a dream long past... I admire you for that and I wish it was so - its simply not.




If your point is that Americans are selling their votes, then you failed to prove it, Jesse Venture notwithstanding. Of course we have a two party system. So what? We should get out the guns and have a revolution because third party candidates like Ralph Nader and wannabes like Jesse Ventura are unlikely to win? Thank the Gods they're unlikely to win.

Money buys media time. (I prefer to use the equality sign for what is actually means...that's semantics) Media time increases contact with voters. Why do that? Because VOTES COUNT. Elections are held to elect leaders.

The ultimate power is with the electorate, if they'd would only recognize it. If a people are too lazy to do the research; too lazy to take part in the political life of their municipality, state and nation; too lazy to govern themselves, then they will be governed by those people who have the initiative to do so.

[trish]

1) Politicians have the power the electorate gives them.
2) Corporations have the money to shower the media with propaganda.
3) The electorate is easily influenced by propaganda high production values.

Neither of these negate the other. (2) and (3) do not make (1) false. In the U.S. the electorate is the key. You must win the electorate.

You have a gun. Two crowds are screaming, "Shoot Mr. X...NO! Shoot Mr. Y". The crowds do their best to make their own request seem seductive and smart, and the alternative stupid and destructive. They may even offer you money, rewards and power. In the end, the decision is still yours.

You say your vote doesn't count. I say it counts too much. The electorate is way too small. More people need to get involved. Shouting nonsense like "votes don't count" is counterproductive to democratic ends.

[TempestTS]

This is nothing more than a history lesson on how things used to work at a previous point and time.

Let me provide the logic lesson when one value becomes equal to another they are interchangeable in an equation. Money buys/equals media - media buys/equals influence - influence results in votes - therefore Money buys Votes. I just cut out the middle parts that you dont seem to want to look at.

The way the numbers work out today make the individual decision moot because the tide has already turned.

If you want it to matter things must be reset to the point where it will - that is what I purpose.

The definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Shouting Votes Dont count is simple logic. You cant fix a problem if you are unaware that there IS a problem.

I want different results therefore different actions are called for.

To keep this on topic - the police state has been strengthened because those who hold the power and the puppets that serve their cause know that we the people are coming to realize this and rebellion and revolution will be the eventual outcome so they want to have a strong police state in place to repress that as long as possible and stomp it out every time the fire of freedom burns a bit too brightly in the populous spirit.




1) Politicians have the power the electorate gives them.
2) Corporations have the money to shower the media with propaganda.
3) The electorate is easily influenced by propaganda high production values.

Neither of these negate the other. (2) and (3) do not make (1) false. In the U.S. the electorate is the key. You must win the electorate.

You have a gun. Two crowds are screaming, "Shoot Mr. X...NO! Shoot Mr. Y". The crowds do their best to make their own request seem seductive and smart, and the alternative stupid and destructive. They may even offer you money, rewards and power. In the end, the decision is still yours.

You say your vote doesn't count. I say it counts too much. The electorate is way too small. More people need to get involved. Shouting nonsense like "votes don't count" is counterproductive to democratic ends.

[trish]

Let me provide the logic lesson when one value becomes equal to another they are interchangeable in an equation. Money buys/equals media - media buys/equals influence - influence results in votes - therefore Money buys Votes. I just cut out the middle parts that you dont seem to want to look at. The flaws in this argument are many. One is the substitution of a transitive relation (namely "equality") for two other binary relations (namely "buys" and "results") neither of which is "equality" one of which is not even transitive. This isn't logic, it's sophistry. It also confuses the notion of influencing an action and purchasing an action. It make a fine metaphor, but one that turns ugly when used to depress the vote. Then it just plays into the hands of the influential. Don't be played. It turns even uglier when used to foment violent overthrow of our elected government.

[TempestTS]

The flaws in this argument are many. One is the substitution of a transitive relation (namely "equality") for two other binary relations (namely "buys" and "results") neither of which is "equality" one of which is not even transitive. This isn't logic, it's sophistry. It also confuses the notion of influencing an action and purchasing an action. It make a fine metaphor, but one that turns ugly when used to depress the vote. Then it just plays into the hands of the influential. Don't be played. It turns even uglier when used to foment violent overthrow of our elected government.

I dont advocate violence - revolution does not need to be a violent act although it often is of necessity due to those who wish to continue to hold on to control and power against what the populous wishes - once again research Iceland's recent change in their governing structure.

Icleland's revolution was peaceful - we just didnt hear about it in the media

now ask yourself "Why not" and then ask yourself who controls the media... and then you have your answer to where power lies.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/01/11/why-did-media-keep-the-recent-peaceful-icelandic-revolution-quiet/

You seem to think the vote has power - I agree that It did and it should - I simply face the truth that its gone except of a slim shadow made of smoke and mirrors and think something must be done to get it back. Something our founding fathers also believed just in a different era but things were all to much the same - the issue then was taxation (and being governed) without any real representation. I argue that its become the same and to change that some form of revolution is required.

The system is broken and must be reinvented and refreshed, the police state (which you dont seem to even mention) exists to protect that broken system so they too must be removed from positions of unjust power and replaced with a system for which the position was originally intended.

When peaceful protests of banks and corporations are met with violent paramilitary opposition who do you think is being Protected and Served? Its not the people, its not the voters...

[broncofan]

In an election with millions of people voting, the percentage chance that your vote is the decisive one is infinitesimally small. But that doesn't mean that money alone buys elections. It buys exposure. But I have seen a tremendous number of local elections where a candidate loses despite outspending his rival four or five to one. And the potential still exists for financially powerful candidates to lose to those with a good grassroots operation in national elections as well.

Do we have a two party system? That's how the interests have aggregated. But if there were a third option that had enough support that third party could presumably win elections. One problem is that the major parties do not want to bifurcate and lose support in the process...but that is just a strategic choice to hug the median view for the greatest chance of success in elections.

I also think that political parties have to respond to changes in the social environment. Republicans have lost ground when it comes to dictating to the public their homophobic agenda and as a result they tread more lightly on the issue. They have certainly reacted to public disapproval to moderate their views. They no longer seek to outlaw consensual homosexual intercourse (part of that has to do with Supreme Court precedent). But do you think their evangelical supporters are okay with them giving up that fight? Probably not. And their most extreme members could form a third party based on the strictest interpretation of traditional values, but they would guarantee a win for the Democratic party by dividing up the big tent.

So a major reason third parties do not have a reasonable chance of success in national elections is that people are too afraid of cannibalizing the vote of their closest major party. And there are many ways to raise money and awareness at the grassroots level. Social change takes place incrementally, but just as monied interests can influence people, the collective public can influence the message of our political candidates by participating in the political process.

[broncofan]

Summary: activism works not by directly influencing the outcome of an upcoming election but by educating people about social issues. This information flows upwards to political candidates who ultimately have to appeal to the public. Is some information dictated from the top down? Of course, but there are also many organizations that work within communities across the country, helping to bring various social and economic issues into the public consciousness. A political party cannot campaign on a message people find morally repugnant no matter how much money they have.

What a lot of people who claim our system is undemocratic are really objecting to is the process of norming. People often do not vote on single issues and with major parties taking a strategic tack, they will have to find the closest approximation of their views. Just because you don't see a political candidate who embodies every single one of your preferred views does not mean the political process has failed.

[TempestTS]

Summary: activism works not by directly influencing the outcome of an upcoming election but by educating people about social issues. This information flows upwards to political candidates who ultimately have to appeal to the public. Is some information dictated from the top down? Of course, but there are also many organizations that work within communities across the country, helping to bring various social and economic issues into the public consciousness. A political party cannot campaign on a message people find morally repugnant no matter how much money they have.

What a lot of people who claim our system is undemocratic are really objecting to is the process of norming. People often do not vote on single issues and with major parties taking a strategic tack, they will have to find the closest approximation of their views. Just because you don't see a political candidate who embodies every single one of your preferred views does not mean the political process has failed.

You do realize that our elected officials lie to the public on a ongoing and regular basis and that faith in the governing body is at an all time low for the history of our country... and it continues to plummet.

I dont think the political system has failed because I disagree with it - I think it has failed because the population in general disagrees with it regardless of party.

Both of these are immutable facts confirmed by countless surveys and polls - no need to make anything up here. Its Simple.

[broncofan]

You do realize that our elected officials lie to the public on a ongoing and regular basis and that faith in the governing body is at an all time low for the history of our country... and it continues to plummet.

I dont think the political system has failed because I disagree with it - I think it has failed because the population in general disagrees with it regardless of party.

Both of these are immutable facts confirmed by countless surveys and polls - no need to make anything up here. Its Simple.
When someone resorts to making a statement and saying "it's simple" they break faith with any attempt to reason logically.

An election is won by the person who receives the most votes. That doesn't guarantee people are going to be satisfied with the candidate's performance by the end of their term.

A critical mass of people control who is elected by voting for indirect representatives. That's the way our system was set up. A lot of people are unhappy with the outcome of hundreds of decisions made by hundreds of representatives at the legislative level. That's not surprising.

I can't imagine the polling results you speak of have been rigorously designed and adhered to for the full 225 years since the Constitution was adopted in 1789 and thereby give any sense of people's satisfaction over that period. I am fairly sure that President Lincoln had a low approval rating in the South during the Civil War but I could be wrong there.

[trish]

Yes. I see the dream now. Three hundred million people in a nation as large as a continent will stage a bloodless coup disbanding the three branches of government. It will be Iceland writ large. Together we will rewrite our Constitution using tweets and facebook. Looking over the deep and ponderous comments one typically finds on twitter and facebook, I gotta wonder what that final document will look like.
(BTW:Iceland maintains a Coast Guard and few special forces, but it has no standing military. Unfortunately we have the largest standing military in the world. I wonder if we can count on it remaining on the sidelines while through tweets and whistles we reconstruct our legal framework?)



I dont think the political system has failed because I disagree with it - I think it has failed because the population in general disagrees with it regardless of party. Really? I don't see that at all. I think this is a clear case of projection.
Here's an immutable fact: The majority of Americans at one time disfavored Obamacare and favored the Affordable Care Act. Careful how you interpret polls. The only polls that count are the ones that determine governmental offices.

To the point of our two party system: Those parties are not immutable. When Johnson signed the Civil Rights act, the Democratic Party lost a majority of its southern membership to the Republican Party. Both underwent gigantic ideological shifts as a result. The Tea Baggers are doing an effective job today of changing the face of the GOP from within. (Cantor recently lost his seat in a primary to a Tea Bagger) That's what the Greens should've done rather than running Ralph Nader; i.e. take over the party structure from within.

In the end, it's your vote politicans pander for. It your vote that grants them office. It's your vote they're spending millions of dollars to try to win. Yes, they would love it if the electorate were smaller and more demographically predictable. Too many of us don't recognize that we're holding the very thing everybody is going apeshit trying to acquire: votes.

[the_unnatural]

Police won't even let us carry cash now, evidently.
https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice/settlement-means-no-more-highway-robbery-tenaha-texas

[trish]

Police won't even let us carry cash now, evidently.
https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice/settlement-means-no-more-highway-robbery-tenaha-texasPlease, feel free to shut down and take over the government of the State of Texas. Rewrite the state constitution on twitter. A hundred and forty characters is about all Rick Perry's brain can parse.

[TempestTS]

When someone resorts to making a statement and saying "it's simple" they break faith with any attempt to reason logically.

An election is won by the person who receives the most votes. That doesn't guarantee people are going to be satisfied with the candidate's performance by the end of their term.

A critical mass of people control who is elected by voting for indirect representatives. That's the way our system was set up. A lot of people are unhappy with the outcome of hundreds of decisions made by hundreds of representatives at the legislative level. That's not surprising.

I can't imagine the polling results you speak of have been rigorously designed and adhered to for the full 225 years since the Constitution was adopted in 1789 and thereby give any sense of people's satisfaction over that period. I am fairly sure that President Lincoln had a low approval rating in the South during the Civil War but I could be wrong there.

Hey whats that over there... oh its the point you seemed to have missed.

You seem to think Im speaking about a singular elected official - Im referring to peoples faith in the governing body as a whole.

If I confined polling results to "data available from recorded history" would that make you happy? - the results are still just the same and cover nearly as much time, so its fine by me.

In addition "its simple" is an attempt to distill nearly 8 pages of logical lengthy reason to a central point. If I haven't reached you by now I wont be able to.

Dont worry - IF I am wrong everything is fine and bound to improve - there are no risks to your personal freedoms and Im sure an elected official who truly has the peoples best interest at heart will be along any day now... mimimum wage will start to go up in proportion to CEO pay, the homeless will be taken care of, we will cease to spend thousands of times more on needless military spending than we do on care for our citizens and the national debt will be wiped out nearly over night. Rainbows and puppies for everyone type of stuff.

Trust me if Im wrong I will be quite grateful and I dont lose a bit of sleep worrying about what would happen if my conclusions are incorrect - my best wish is that they are.

I worry about what if Im right?

[buttslinger]

This Politics and Religion section isn't very good when there aren't any elections coming up, if you're on a TS site and you're Republican, I can only marvel at what is going on inside your head. In the upcoming US elections, I'm almost hoping the Republicans take the Senate, Obama's a lame duck, maybe republicans trying to destroy the economy for two years will give Hillary all three branches in twenty -o-sixteen.

People have it just good enough.......they're not going to get out of their LaZboys to change things. If they do get amped up they'll just try and make more money. This has been the story of Western Civilization for thousands of years.

Number One Street Survival Law- never put your hands on a cop.
Wait for the elections. Vote Democratic. Choose a city, state, or country that best suits you and move there.

[TempestTS]

Law & Disorder / Civilization & Discontents (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/)

Grandma repeatedly protested drones at base, now faces a year in jail

Protests reportedly peaceful; judge won't let her "thumb her nose at the law once again."

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/grandma-repeatedly-protested-drones-at-base-now-faces-a-year-in-prison/

[the_unnatural]

Jury nullification is really our only hope, the way I see it, since the entire system seems to be out of order. They're executing no-knock warrants for buying potting soil. Taking DNA samples at checkpoints.

http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-couple-indoor-gardening-prompted-pot-raid-182449463.html

http://rt.com/usa/police-dna-swabs-reading-checkpoint-405/

Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces: Radley Balko: 9781610392112: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518lS5g5o9L.@@AMEPARAM@@518lS5g5o9L (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1610392116/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1610392116&linkCode=as2&tag=theagitator-20)

[TempestTS]

Jury nullification is really our only hope, the way I see it, since the entire system seems to be out of order. They're executing no-knock warrants for buying potting soil. Taking DNA samples at checkpoints.

http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-couple-indoor-gardening-prompted-pot-raid-182449463.html

http://rt.com/usa/police-dna-swabs-reading-checkpoint-405/

Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces: Radley Balko: 9781610392112: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1610392116/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1610392116&linkCode=as2&tag=theagitator-20)

No knock warrants are rising to ridiculous levels and the times when they find nothing there is no accountability for either judge or the investigating officer that requested the warrant. Property is being destroyed, people are being hurt, pets killed and its all in wholesale rejection of our constitutional rights.

Whats even scarier is the "Sneak and peek" warrant where cops use otherwise criminal means to enter a residence just so they can look around while the owner isnt there. No notice is given, no paperwork is ever provided, property can be seized just to see if it pertains to an investigation all with the express purpose of concealing the fact that they were ever there. If nothing that can be easily prosecuted is found they simply never speak about it again and somebody has stuff that just "vanished" - money, electronics, valuables... ect just vanish into a police state black hole.

[TempestTS]

Yes. I see the dream now. Three hundred million people in a nation as large as a continent will stage a bloodless coup disbanding the three branches of government. It will be Iceland writ large. Together we will rewrite our Constitution using tweets and facebook. Looking over the deep and ponderous comments one typically finds on twitter and facebook, I gotta wonder what that final document will look like.
(BTW:Iceland maintains a Coast Guard and few special forces, but it has no standing military. Unfortunately we have the largest standing military in the world. I wonder if we can count on it remaining on the sidelines while through tweets and whistles we reconstruct our legal framework?)

Really? I don't see that at all. I think this is a clear case of projection.
Here's an immutable fact: The majority of Americans at one time disfavored Obamacare and favored the Affordable Care Act. Careful how you interpret polls. The only polls that count are the ones that determine governmental offices.

To the point of our two party system: Those parties are not immutable. When Johnson signed the Civil Rights act, the Democratic Party lost a majority of its southern membership to the Republican Party. Both underwent gigantic ideological shifts as a result. The Tea Baggers are doing an effective job today of changing the face of the GOP from within. (Cantor recently lost his seat in a primary to a Tea Bagger) That's what the Greens should've done rather than running Ralph Nader; i.e. take over the party structure from within.

In the end, it's your vote politicans pander for. It your vote that grants them office. It's your vote they're spending millions of dollars to try to win. Yes, they would love it if the electorate were smaller and more demographically predictable. Too many of us don't recognize that we're holding the very thing everybody is going apeshit trying to acquire: votes.


Your right a nonviolent revolution clearly isnt possible -Silly me... Ghandi, Civil rights, Martin Luther King, the Woman's rights movement... clearly never happened its all a myth.

[TempestTS]

and then this ...

[the_unnatural]

The way I remember it, the slide began with the MADD push, which brought us "safety checkpoints." Then, with the war on drugs, they started with the search of vehicles without consent by claiming to "smell marijuana" (I think stats should be kept to see how many searches based on smell found nothing.). Throw in 9-11 and you have a giant police-state snowball running out of control.

Citizens' rights to film police do offer some hope. Even that has been a struggle. It wasn't till this year that Illinois' anti-eavesdropping laws were overturned. Under that law it was even a crime to record the sound of a crowd at a football game.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/20/illinois-eavesdropping-law_n_5003308.html

[trish]

Yeah, stop those fascist mothers against drunk driving! They're fucking ruining the country for the sake of a few useless children. The world's overpopulated anyway.

[Prospero]

A shit storm of paranoia is turning so many Americans into lunatics.

[the_unnatural]

That's what you got out of that, Trish?

[trish]

That's what you got out of that, Trish?
No. There's also the GIANT police state snowball running OUT OF CONTROL along with the International Jewish Conspiracy and the fascist AFT blockade of the Bundy Ranch.

I can't count how many times I got stopped for driving while black. But let a little old grandma get her white ass thrown in jail (for repeatedly trespassing on a military base when there was the equivalent of a court order telling her not to do it so) and suddenly we're living in a police state, a fucking police state, no...a giant fucking police state snowballing out of control. Right. I totally agree. Last time I voting for a Muslim.

[the_unnatural]

Well, no sense trying to communicate with someone so hysterical.

[trish]

Well, no sense trying to communicate with someone so hysterical. I'm sorry. Given the title of the thread and given "communications" like


you have a giant police-state snowball running out of controI just sort of thought we implicitly agreed to speak in hyperbole.

Here's a couple more just for fun:

Seems more than half the black population of this Nation has been behind bars since the seventies. (Before that they were being lynched and murdered by the KKK). But let a white man's car be subject to search on the reasonable assumption it may contain drugs and BAM...we're living in a giant police state.

Do we live in a police state? In a police state, complete totalitarian control resides with the executive. Anyone makes the executive unhappy and they’re disappeared. OH MY GOD! That’s what happened to Eric Cantor!! That explains why all three branches of government seem to be acting together in machine like lockstep. It's a giant fucking snowballing police state!!!!

No. We don't live in a police state. We don't come anywhere near the definition. There is a lot of shit wrong with this country, but being a police state is not one of them. It's not the government but the culture. Of course an elected government is a manifestation of the culture.

We are a culture that glorifies competition over cooperation. We prefer to privatize services rather than sponsor them. We hate taxes. We love lotteries. We choose religion over science. We say we love freedom but we'd rather incarcerate a man than address a deep social problem. You can count on us to bring a gun to a debate. We're tough on blue collar criminals but easy on root causes of crime.

These are the policies that politicians run on. These are the policies that get them elected. We're the one's that voted for the war on drugs; we're the ones who voted to get tough on crime (perhaps not you personally-certainly not me- but that is exactly what the electorate wanted). I'm not surprised to find our schools deteriorating, our rivers polluted, our populace maimed with stray bullets from the guns of private citizens, our pensions raided, our bankers getting bigger bonuses than ever, our prisons (more numerous than almost any other nation's in the world) full to overflowing. I'm not surprised because these are the natural consequences of the policies that seem to appeal to the American voter.

The problem doesn't lie with The Other. It's not the government per se. We are the government. The Other is Us. The problem is us. We're not a compassionate nor a thoughtful people. We don't usually vote for compassion nor for thoughtfulness. We want to be tough. Tough on crime. Tough on drugs. Tough on terrorists. Tough lazy louts who won't work for a living. Tough on immigration. Tough on everything. That's what we got...not a police state...just a tough, tough government that mirrors our collective soul and every blemish.

[the_unnatural]

Collecting DNA at checkpoints. Seizing property of people charged with no crime. Busting down the doors of tomato growers. Nope--nothing like a police state.

You obviously choose to ignore any of the stories I've linked. Go ahead--fixate on the snowball and rant away. I'm done with you.

[trish]

Obviously you chose to ignore the very definition of a police state: a state where the executive has totalitarian power. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that our executive branch as the opposite of totalitarian power over the Congress. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that you can complain in a public forum about living in a police state without getting your ass hauled off to jail. Obviously you chose to ignore that all the infractions of which you complain are a direct result of policies the electorate voted for. These are not characteristics of a police state. They are the characteristics of an ignorant, small minded electorate.

You want a government that’s tough on crime, you’ll get prisons. You want tough on undocumented immigrants you’ll get searches and ID checks. You want tough on drugs, you’ll get more searches. You want tough on terrorists, you’ll get wire-tapping. You want security, you’ll get airport searches and full body X-rays. You get the consequences of what you vote for. You want free and unregulated enterprise, you’ll get jobs with no pensions and slave wages. You want stand-your-ground laws you’ll get more shoot-outs.

You want to provide safety nets, diminish poverty, encourage learning and research, clean air and water, a safe food supply, public lands all can enjoy, highways, bridges, dams, disaster money for regions hit by fire and flood, you want firemen, 911 services, etc. etc. Then you’ll get some taxes.

Ouch! Forget taxes! How much is the tough-on-every government?

[the_unnatural]

Great points, Trish. All of them.

You are quite the debatetrix.

[TempestTS]

A shit storm of paranoia is turning so many Americans into lunatics.

There is no such thing as paranoia. Your worst fears can come true at any moment - Hunter S Thompson

[TempestTS]

Seems more than half the black population of this Nation has been behind bars since the seventies. (Before that they were being lynched and murdered by the KKK). But let a white man's car be subject to search on the reasonable assumption it may contain drugs and BAM...we're living in a giant police state. [/QUOTE]

No Im talking about what the government is doing to all people - especially the black population. BTW Im part Cherokee - please ask me some time what the government did to far more than half of my people. And on that note my tribe was told that we were paranoid, there was nothing to worry about... told not to fight back, not to question - until it was far too late for it to do any good.



Do we live in a police state? In a police state, complete totalitarian control resides with the executive. Anyone makes the executive unhappy and they’re disappeared. OH MY GOD! That’s what happened to Eric Cantor!! That explains why all three branches of government seem to be acting together in machine like lockstep. It's a giant fucking snowballing police state!!!!


Actually its fast becoming one and if you look at the rate that our rights have been eroded yes its the "snowball" effect. And yes people are disappeared - NDAA declares the whole country a battleground in the war on terror authorizes "indefinite detention" of anyone suspected of being part of a terror plot - without defining what that means. Not to mention a "War on Terror" is a forever war - there will never be a winner or a loser, no one can claim victory and it will never ever end. "but Nobody's disappeared" Ill save you the time of that argument - if someone is vanished how would you ever know? - how would you prove it?

No. We don't live in a police state. We don't come anywhere near the definition. There is a lot of shit wrong with this country, but being a police state is not one of them. It's not the government but the culture. Of course an elected government is a manifestation of the culture.




We are a culture that glorifies competition over cooperation. We prefer to privatize services rather than sponsor them. We hate taxes. We love lotteries. We choose religion over science. We say we love freedom but we'd rather incarcerate a man than address a deep social problem. You can count on us to bring a gun to a debate. We're tough on blue collar criminals but easy on root causes of crime.

And I couldnt agree more with that statement - we kick in the door for a nickel bag of pot and spend 12 MILLION $$$ to raid Tommy Chong a 1970's comedian for selling glass bongs. AKA police state



These are the policies that politicians run on. These are the policies that get them elected. We're the one's that voted for the war on drugs; we're the ones who voted to get tough on crime (perhaps not you personally-certainly not me- but that is exactly what the electorate wanted). I'm not surprised to find our schools deteriorating, our rivers polluted, our populace maimed with stray bullets from the guns of private citizens, our pensions raided, our bankers getting bigger bonuses than ever, our prisons (more numerous than almost any other nation's in the world) full to overflowing. I'm not surprised because these are the natural consequences of the policies that seem to appeal to the American voter.

The problem doesn't lie with The Other. It's not the government per se. We are the government. The Other is Us. The problem is us. We're not a compassionate nor a thoughtful people. We don't usually vote for compassion nor for thoughtfulness. We want to be tough. Tough on crime. Tough on drugs. Tough on terrorists. Tough lazy louts who won't work for a living. Tough on immigration. Tough on everything. That's what we got...not a police state...just a tough, tough government that mirrors our collective soul and every blemish.

Correct the problem lies with us - we are to blame completely - the government took control through fear and we all bought into it - tough on crime because criminals are scary - touch on drugs because smoking Reefer drives you insane - Tough on Terror because we cant let them win so guy buy another big mac - tough on security because we need to keep all those terrorists posing as punk rock bands from getting on the airplane -

now let me drop the sarcasm here - we let the last hope of holding on to our freedom trickle through our fingers over 50 years ago and we as a people can be convinced to be afraid of our own shadow at the drop of a hat so we progressively voted in a government that purposed stronger and stronger civilian authority to protect us against whatever ghost we were most scared of a the time. And that my dear is historically how ever police state gains power.

We fucked up - we threw our freedom away - where you and I differ is in thinking that a little ink in the right check box is going to ever bring it back.

[TempestTS]

Obviously you chose to ignore the very definition of a police state: a state where the executive has totalitarian power. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that our executive branch as the opposite of totalitarian power over the Congress. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that you can complain in a public forum about living in a police state without getting your ass hauled off to jail. Obviously you chose to ignore that all the infractions of which you complain are a direct result of policies the electorate voted for. These are not characteristics of a police state. They are the characteristics of an ignorant, small minded electorate.

You want a government that’s tough on crime, you’ll get prisons. You want tough on undocumented immigrants you’ll get searches and ID checks. You want tough on drugs, you’ll get more searches. You want tough on terrorists, you’ll get wire-tapping. You want security, you’ll get airport searches and full body X-rays. You get the consequences of what you vote for. You want free and unregulated enterprise, you’ll get jobs with no pensions and slave wages. You want stand-your-ground laws you’ll get more shoot-outs.

You want to provide safety nets, diminish poverty, encourage learning and research, clean air and water, a safe food supply, public lands all can enjoy, highways, bridges, dams, disaster money for regions hit by fire and flood, you want firemen, 911 services, etc. etc. Then you’ll get some taxes.

Ouch! Forget taxes! How much is the tough-on-every government?

you define a police state to the extreme - I define ours as one still a bit more subtle than that but growing daily.

I pay my taxes - no problem with that - I just question what they are spent on - here is a little trivia - last year we spent 7.4 billion on the failed F35 fighter alone - that same amount could would have been enough to provide homes, food and medical assistance to every single homeless person in our country with ample money to spare.

Freedom to talk on a forum without the police knocking down my door - nope they havent done it yet but with the money pouring into internet surveillance of all types I will guarantee my name is on a list somewhere just like yours is for taking part in this discussion. Another little trivia bit - I dont just do porn and rock n roll - my "day to day" gig is as a network engineer - any guesses who has approached me more than once to work on a "homeland" project.

[broncofan]

you define a police state to the extreme -
That's because the terminology you used is extreme. The Soviet Union during Stalin's reign was a police state because the ruling party exerted near total control over all political and economic life. People were regularly made to disappear based on the barest of suspicions. The suspicions themselves were over actions such as dissent, an indictment based purely on subversive thoughts without any affirmative act at all. That you would even attempt to conflate the present situation in the U.S with that most ghastly of historical examples was destructive to your credibility ab initio.

North Korea? Nazi Germany? Have you seen a concentration camp? A gulag? A prison camp in North Korea?

[broncofan]

Freedom to talk on a forum without the police knocking down my door - nope they havent done it yet but with the money pouring into internet surveillance of all types I will guarantee my name is on a list somewhere just like yours is for taking part in this discussion.
When you say guarantee, do you mean guarantee, or simply that you believe it might be the case? Because guarantee means it is a certainty. If it's just your opinion or you think it's a strong probability based on your judgment, that's not really a guarantee.

[skybuddha]

completely nuts lol .

tldr ... so did the victims in the OP sue the state and get cash/justice for their alleged troubles ?

[TempestTS]

That's because the terminology you used is extreme. The Soviet Union during Stalin's reign was a police state because the ruling party exerted near total control over all political and economic life. People were regularly made to disappear based on the barest of suspicions. The suspicions themselves were over actions such as dissent, an indictment based purely on subversive thoughts without any affirmative act at all. That you would even attempt to conflate the present situation in the U.S with that most ghastly of historical examples was destructive to your credibility ab initio.

North Korea? Nazi Germany? Have you seen a concentration camp? A gulag? A prison camp in North Korea?

Yes I am well versed in the history of those autocracies as well as our own - as I stated before Im part Native American, Cherokee, my great Great grandmother was shipped to the Midwest on an orphan train - care to ask me why she was an orphan?

it all starts somewhere - that kind of control isnt an overnight happening - perhaps you could do with a history lesson yourself - none of those camps, gulags and prisons popped up over night - none were as horrible in the beginning as they became. What if you could go back and stop it before it got that way ? Would you? or would you hold your tongue because you might be called a dissident and considered subversive?

Once again if Im wrong there is absolutely nothing to worry about - Ill take being wrong any day - gladly

[Prospero]

I have the greatest of admiration and respect for you as a woman and as a musician and in other ways Tempest, but i think you have a rather warped view of things and clearly do not really understand the nature of a "police state."

Can I suggest that you try reading about the situation in Eastern Europe and especially East Germany before the collapse of communism where the Stasi spied on everyone (A good primer is the book "The Stasi Files" or the movie "The Lives of Others") consider the situation in North Korea now or in Rumania before the overthrow of Ceaucescu or under Stalin in Russia or Mao in China. Consider the treatment meted out to dissenters in modern iran or to those who fail to observe the religious rules in Saudi Arabia. These are real authoritarian police states. These are places where to even talk about the dictator could get you imprisoned, tortured or killed.

Yes the fate of the native Americans is a deep and terrible stain on the history of the USAbut that does not make the modern US a police state. It is one of the freest nations in the modern world - despite the dubious activities of the CIA and NSA. There is much that is wrong with the US. Many things that all Americans need to work to correct. But if you look at the past 50 years and the progress of ethnic minorities, the civl rights recoms, gay rights etc etc... and in the past decade the election of the first African American President then surely you can see that there is much that is good and positive about the US (even when it has slipped into aggression against foreign nations under your previous president George W Bush). Perhaps after your next election it might even have its first female president. All signs of progress. No nation is perfect. No system is perfect. But the US is closer than most to being a civilised and acceptable place.

In modern america where are the pogroms, where are the extermination camps, the gulags, the forced re-education of mililons, the mass vanishings of sectors of the population ?

[trish]

The German concentration camps sprang into existence all over Germany just weeks after Hitler became Chancellor, and the NAZI party usurped power. Storm troopers and local police in every province arrested anyone who was imagined to be a political opponent to the party and thrown into a detention camp, if not shot. Given the depressed state that Germany was in after WWI, this turn of events was, in hind sight, predictable; but at the time it was about as efficient and as sudden as one can imagine. These camps didn’t slowly evolve from resort hotels into dens of death and squalor. They pretty much sprang full blown into existence that way. It certainly didn’t take no fifty years which is the time span you keep bringing up when complaining about the U.S. becoming a “police state.”

It’s ludicrous to compare the U.S. to NAZI Germany. What U.S. political party is the analog of the NAZi party? The dems? The republicans? Which one is arresting and assassinating political opponents? (Which one is sending spies into the conferences of the opposition party? ) Who’s Hitler? What central figure is orchestrating the take over of this fantasy police state that we have to rise up and fight against? Obama? At the end of his second term he won’t have gotten half his appointments approved! Is it Boehner? How about the Koch brothers? Are they pulling all the strings? Certainly there is no overt political power in charge of this “police state.” It must be a shadow agency. The Illuminati perhaps? A cabal of Jewish, Wall Street bankers, maybe? Who is it? And if we dismember the government as you advise, why wouldn’t this shadow agency just step up and take over? What would stop it? What’s stopping it now, other than the fact that it doesn’t exist and anyone who would wield political power in the Nation at the current time ultimately has to win a majority of the electorate?

Ours is about as far as you can get from a police state. Police states are efficient and centrally controlled. If anything, our government is inefficient and somewhat dysfunctional.

You get what you vote for. You vote for policies that are tough on crime, you’re going to get prisons and police. You vote to get tough on immigrants you’re gonna get searches, and ID checks. You wanna get tough on terrorists you’re gonna get Homeland Security providing local police forces with all kinds of gear they never seen before except in movies__and they’re gonna find excuses to use it. The more people vote for get-tough-policies the more inexperienced police we’ll see on the street exercising bad judgment. You ask whether ink on paper can put a stop to this? Of course. Enough little ovals filled in with black marker can easily do it. Because we’re the shadow figures controlling the strings and making those silly politicians dance and say all the silly things they say.

[broncofan]

Yes I am well versed in the history of those autocracies as well as our own - as I stated before Im part Native American, Cherokee, my great Great grandmother was shipped to the Midwest on an orphan train - care to ask me why she was an orphan?


In all sincerity I am very sorry what happened to your family. The United States committed grave atrocities against the Native American people. It is a dark stain on American history and human history. That doesn't mean the U.S. is currently a police state and has restricted all political freedom or quashed dissent in the way you indicate.

I know of at least nine members of my family who died in extermination camps. They lived in occupied Europe during WWII, but not within Germany. But if you take a look at the Nuremberg Laws you can get a flavor for how quickly things went downhill in Nazi Germany. This was as early as 1935.
Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws) .

It's not as if one day the Germans were executing a no knock warrant looking for contraband and the next day Jews were forbidden from marrying those of German stock. Or that people's conversations were being monitored and then the next day they were sent to concentration camps. This was the ethos from the night of the long knives forward.

In North Korea, people are sent to prison camps for saying anything considered hostile to the regime. People are executed summarily, without any right of appeal, and often for crimes that no civilized society would consider capital (vandalism, burglary). Some argue that our system of capital punishment is barbaric, and I think it should be abolished, but a system that only allows execution for murder and has multiple layers of appeal is not on a slippery slope to midnight executions of political opponents.

In NK, people are forbidden from having contact with the outside world, forbidden from leaving the country, restricted in their movements around the country, forced to have abortions, persecuted for their religious beliefs (and I don't mean forced to sponsor health care that includes coverage for contraception), and systematically starved to death. If you are interested in how this came about in North Korea, take a look at Kim Il-Sung's reign over NK and his practical deification within that country. Though I am not an expert on their history, it does not appear to have been gradual. I simply fail to see how policies legitimately tailored to fighting crime and subjected to judicial review can transform into a cult of personality where a leader considered a deity and thought to control the weather starves and imprisons a terrified populace.

[my my my!]

.... about the U.S. becoming a “police state.”

It’s ludicrous to compare the U.S. to NAZI Germany. What U.S. political party is the analog of the NAZi party? The dems? The republicans? Which one is arresting and assassinating political opponents?

Ours is about as far as you can get from a police state. Police states are efficient and centrally controlled. If anything, our government is inefficient and somewhat dysfunctional.



It's not ludicrous. For the sake of discussion, bringing up striking similarities of the current USA to Nazi Controlled Germany are relevant.

- The Schutz Staffel which translated into it's political and police use, means Protection Department. Germany's Nazi Policies , were so blatantly aggressive and considered dangerous, that it was indeed needed to create a "Protection Department" to protect Germany and most notably , it's government and ideology.from people who did not agree with the government's policies domestically, or externally. The SS conducted assassinations and operations outside of Germany, prior to the start of military hostilities of World War 2

- Department of Homeland Security (notice even the similarity of the name to Protection Department?), was formed as a reaction to the 9/11 events. Seen at the surface, this appears to be a completely necessary move and was accepted by, although begrudgingly by some, most Americans.

these are facts except the part about the names being similar.

Now to the similarities.

- Both the SS and DHS, serve(d) a country, whose political , military and social behavior , were not agreed with internally and externally by opposition groups in other countries and within the countries. The DHS, was formed as a counter to the terrorism experienced by the USA, after 9/11. However, one must ask. Why is there terrorism in against/within the USA?

Well, like Germany during the Nazi Era, the USA , has a questionable foreign policy of protecting the best interests of the country. Sounds ludicrous? It's not. The USA , regardless if we agree or not (on this board) has been conducting a foreign policy that is not necessarily in the best interest of those affected. From the ill-advised invasions, assassinations, interventions and propaganda distributed in other countries, the USA is not far from Nazi Era Germany in terms of being regarded as an evil, meddling self serving country.

Nazi era Germany (and the USA since 2001) knew full well, that their foreign and internal policies, were being met with resistance, and sometimes violence.

This is NO DIFFERENT , to the USA's policies of about the last 30-40 years. Done under the guise of protecting American Interests.

What is the result of such policies, intervention and ideologies? Well, for the initiator, it seems righteous and like something that HAS TO BE DONE.

To the affected , it definitely does not feel like that. And some will be subjugated to the will of the government, and some will rebel, manifest or fight the oppression. The rebellion (the USA calls them insurgencies) against USA military occupations, propaganda, and interventions , is met with resistance from simple to demonstrations, to all out fighting.

The USA and Nazi era Germany, are two countries, whose questionable foreign policies and outward disregard for foreign and internal opinion, led them to create departments specifically for the purpose of protecting the country from before mentioned opponents.

The difference is, Nazi era German did it quicker. In the USA , it is a more gradual, perhaps not as open, evolution into a quasi-Police State such as Nazi era Germany.

The are other similarities. Such as the continuing erosion of certain civil rights (happened in germany). If you keep up with politics, and law changes, you can detect changes to basic civil rights, that were not there before, and nobody notices until it happens to them. The passing of the Patriot ACT is a blatant example of this. and the knee jerk reaction to 9/11.

also, escalated racial bias (muslims are a very maligned group, just like jews in germany, specially after 9/11), In germany, jews were seen as scum and the cause of Germany's World War 1 defeat.

expansion of law enforcement. Immediately after the Nazi's rise (through elections, although there's much speculation that these were tampered with), Polizei , Gestapo , Sicherheitsdienst and other offices of the SS sprung up all over Germany. Much like the DHS branches and new groups.

The overall anger at 9/11 and other anti-American and western ideal terrorist attacks, have created a NEED TO ESTABLISH such a system. Much like Germany's situation before WW2. People want protection. That's understood. But these two governments , have created so much international and domestic discord, that they cannot function without those "protection departments"

The POLICE STATE in Germany , was not overnight. It took years of development. It was not an overnight process, although in real terms, it was alot faster than the USA's approach towards becoming a police state.

The inclinations, and similarities are there. Is the USA ALREADY A POLICE STATE (as compared to Full Nazi Power era Germany)?

No, I would say it's definitely in the beginning stages of it.

USA's foreign and domestic policy(perhaps as far back as post WW2 policies) is the root cause of terrorism and attacks, internally or externally, or originating externally (9/11) against the United States of America.

Germany did the same. For years they had outward expansionism, and were met with internal (Germans against the Nazis) as well as external opposition (obvious , nations or peoples that did not want Nazi influence or occupation)
Sound familliar? That's because it is, The USA has been doing the exact same thing (although with a different approach). All to defend, expand, and protect the American Way. Much like Germany did.

The POLICE STATE in the USA has already started. And as long as the Judeo-Christian-Western Allies continue to impose their will on the people's of other countries, the USA will find itself in a constant state of protecting themselves from those who do not agree with it, be it internally, externally, of American descent or from foreign origin.

The article presented by Tempest is just one of thousands of examples from the last 13 years of so, of people losing some of their basic constitutionally protected rights.


From that perspective, the USA now , and Germany then , do have too many striking similarities.

Not ludicrous at all to compare them , In my opinion.

I'm not saying the USA's policies have been wrong. But , there's a reason why those groups , internal and external "HATE" the USA and act on it through sometimes violent means. And the reason is, they have a different viewpoint. And when people have different viewpoints to what their or another government's viewpoint is, they're not always discussed in a forum such as this.

[my my my!]

this was meant as an edit to my other post , but it didn't let me:

The article presented by Tempest is just one of thousands of examples from the last 13 years of so, of people losing some of their basic constitutionally protected rights albeit momentarily and not in all cases permanently. The laws are really vague to the average american citizen, and most people do not have the time and resources to sue, fight , or question these violations in a court of law, meaning the Police usually win, hence to why it appearing to be very "Police State" like.

As a result , American citizens are experiencing this in the form of police brutality, and disregard for basic civil rights. Much like German citizens under Nazi Rule.

The Nazi party cannot be compared to the Dems, or GOP, the Nazi party is more like the entire congress and their leader, with a a paranoid public willing to lose some of their liberties in the name of security (much like what "normal" german citizens did under the Nazi Government)

[Prospero]

My my my. I like you but that is utter bilge.

[my my my!]

My my my. I like you but that is utter bilge.

I like you as a person as well btw .

But, that's your prerogative and right to express what you did.

However, the Similarities, are there

Outward , supposedly "justified" acts of war against sovereign nations are there for both.

the erosion of civil liberties, and increase in police brutality and scare tactics are there for both.

implied, and expressed hatred and disregard for an entire group or groups are there for both.

the need to create a self protection department, apart from each nation's military, due to questionable and outright aggressive foreign policy are there for both.

If you don't see this. perhaps you need to live here in the good ol USA for years, to see the actual differences from 30 years ago to now.

Is the USA, putting Muslims in concentration camps. NO, hell no!

But it is a nuke in a major american city away from doing it.

And the police, yes. I live here, and they're definitely more brutal and unobservant of your rights since 9/11.

anything to add?

[trish]

In the case of Germany, it’s easy to point to the single power that usurped political control: the NAZI Party and their fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There is no central power behind the so-called “police state” which you claim is the U.S. has becoming. By definition, in a police state there is a central power that maintains its political control principally through the utilization of the domestic police. Who’s doing this? Whose political power depends upon the police?

Unlike NAZI Germany, our foreign incursions (for good or ill) were carried out with loud support from the electorate. Despite the opposition of many Democrats, the Iran invasion was immensely popular with the electorate. Bush was re-elected. He didn’t use a domestic police force to stay in power for a second term.

Cantor lost his office because the primary voters thought he was too soft on immigrants. Obama too is taking heat for being too soft on immigrants. There no despot amassing police and guards at our southern border unless the electorate counts as a gang of despots.

That internal policies sometimes meet with resistance is no surprise in any country, whether it be a democratic-republic, a communist state or a fascist. That domestic policies meet resistance can hardly be called a parallel between the U.S. and NAZI Germany. That you list it as such tells me you’re argument is not very discriminating. Ditto foreign policies.

The Patriot Act, which I publicly protested, was defended vociferously and almost unanimously by Republicans when it was signed by Bush. But the power of the Republican party is not even close to becoming the monolithic iron fist that was the NAZI party. Moreover, I was not arrested for my protest. However much you dislike it, the Patriot Act is not the tool of a single party to maintain political control.

Yes there is a lot of prejudice in this country directed against Muslims. Yet it has not found a friendly reception within any branch of our government. President Bush was emphatic that we should refrain from blaming Muslims for 9-11, there have been no laws disenfranchising Muslims and religious freedom has been upheld by our courts. Attempts by enforcement agencies to profile Muslims have met opposition by the general populace and all branches of government. Not what would be expected in a police state.

You say our policies over the last 30-40 years are NO DIFFERENT from those of the NAZI era Germany. That’s simply ludicrous on the face of it! You say the the police state in Germany did not occur overnight, yet it did. It certainly didn’t take 30-40 years. The reason is that the police state in Germany was the result of a government take-over by a single monolithic party. That is an essential element of a police state. The power in a police state is wielded by an efficient centralized depot. Who or what, over the last 30-40 years, do you propose has been growing the roots and tentacles of power and is about to reveal themselves as our supreme leader? Who? Who are we supposed to rise against?

So where does this the-U.S.-is-a-police-state meme and the your-vote-doesn’t-count meme come from? It plays right into the ideology of the small-government and no-government conservatives, libertarians and gun nuts. You may or may not subscribe to these sophomoric political philosophies, but if you think the U.S. is a police state or that people shouldn’t bother voting ‘cause your vote doesn’t count, then your have been exposed to their viral memes and contracted the disease. Seek professional care.

We are the government. They are are two separate entities.

[broncofan]

Well, like Germany during the Nazi Era, the USA , has a questionable foreign policy of protecting the best interests of the country. Sounds ludicrous? It's not. The USA , regardless if we agree or not (on this board) has been conducting a foreign policy that is not necessarily in the best interest of those affected. From the ill-advised invasions, assassinations, interventions and propaganda distributed in other countries, the USA is not far from Nazi Era Germany in terms of being regarded as an evil, meddling self serving country.
.
These "parallels" are about as specific as saying two people look alike because they both have faces. Here are some differences. Very soon after Hitler became Chancellor, domestic political enemies were murdered without process. All of the Jews in the country were by law, both de jure and de facto, prevented from marrying Germans, engaging in intercourse with them, or employing them in their homes. Five years after he became chancellor, there was kristallnacht, where synagogues were burned to the ground, about one hundred German citizens were murdered by SS disguised in plainclothes, and thousands sent to camps. Further, the victims of Kristallnacht were fined to pay for the property damage perpetrated by the SS.

Where is the murder of political opponents in the U.S? The systematic suppression of dissent by laws punishing strictly political speech? What groups are by law precluded from working or interacting with others or even displaying our national flag?

[trish]

Addendum :)
We are the government. They are NOT two separate entities.

[my my my!]

These "parallels" are about as specific as saying two people look alike because they both have faces. Here are some differences. Very soon after Hitler became Chancellor, domestic political enemies were murdered without process. All of the Jews in the country were by law, both de jure and de facto, prevented from marrying Germans, engaging in intercourse with them, or employing them in their homes. Five years after he became chancellor, there was kristallnacht, where synagogues were burned to the ground, about one hundred German citizens were murdered by SS disguised in plainclothes, and thousands sent to camps. Further, the victims of Kristallnacht were fined to pay for the property damage perpetrated by the SS.

Where is the murder of political opponents in the U.S? The systematic suppression of dissent by laws punishing strictly political speech? What groups are by law precluded from working or interacting with others or even displaying our national flag?

I never said they were replicas.

If you want to bring up EVERYTHING the nazi's did, and find the USA equivalent. you're not going to find it.

I said they were very similar, and enough for a valid comparison and to be mentioned together.

The USA does have beginning signs of a police state. Is it going to happen the EXACT same ways it Happened in Germany? NO

You guys are suggesting Nazi Era Germany is THEE POLICE STATE that all future POLICE STATES must be measured against.

[my my my!]

In the case of Germany, it’s easy to point to the single power that usurped political control: the NAZI Party and their fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There is no central power behind the so-called “police state” which you claim is the U.S. has becoming. By definition, in a police state there is a central power that maintains its political control principally through the utilization of the domestic police. Who’s doing this? Whose political power depends upon the police?

Nazi Germany is not Thee Police state to compare against. A Police state can be a gradual thing and even elected into power, with the people unwittingly accepting it. The United States is definitely heading that way. Police States have developed under different circumstances than in Nazi Germany. There is no central power in the USA. But the abuses, and underlying symptoms of a future police state are there. Who's ordering these cops to abuse their power, and disregard the law? A police state exists, because the people let it become, and subconsciously approve of it. Hitler was elected. Due to his speeches and ideology, actually appealing to Germans. People here in the USA , approve of brutal police tactics, racial profiling, discrimination , as long as it is for the "common good" .


By definition, in a police state there is a central power that maintains its political control principally through the utilization of the domestic police.

NO,
A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

This is not necessarily have to be through the Police....



Unlike NAZI Germany, our foreign incursions (for good or ill) were carried out with loud support from the electorate. Despite the opposition of many Democrats, the Iran invasion was immensely popular with the electorate. Bush was re-elected. He didn’t use a domestic police force to stay in power for a second term.

Exactly, as long as a majority wins , even if it is 51 to 49 out of 100 does not make it right. Who cares about the other 49 right? Hitler's popularity went up every year , up until the onset of world war 2. Bush lied to the United States , and His second term was based on a lie, the quagmire in Iraq. The public overwhelmingly showed support for him , by voting for him. Just like that German public loved Hitler even as he took over the Sudetenland.



There no despot amassing police and guards at our southern border unless the electorate counts as a gang of despots.

I don't think you've seen the big giant fence, and numerous border patrol installations on the border. That's pretty police state-ish. Under the guise , of "preventing illegal immigration".. Yea, that' a pretty friendly way.




That internal policies sometimes meet with resistance is no surprise in any country, whether it be a democratic-republic, a communist state or a fascist. That domestic policies meet resistance can hardly be called a parallel between the U.S. and NAZI Germany. That you list it as such tells me you’re argument is not very discriminating. Ditto foreign policies.

No, I said there's similarities. If you want to go tit for tat. I will. What part of 'similar' don't you get? You have two governments, who pretty much do what they want, with the apparent support of the people, yet their victims and opppsition don't like it and react. This reaction is met with "Oh , we need a department for home defense" from both Germany and the USA




The Patriot Act, which I publicly protested, was defended vociferously and almost unanimously by Republicans when it was signed by Bush. But the power of the Republican party is not even close to becoming the monolithic iron fist that was the NAZI party. Moreover, I was not arrested for my protest. However much you dislike it, the Patriot Act is not the tool of a single party to maintain political control.

The patriot is just a major example, it's not the single tool. The overall tool, is subjugation and brainwashing through manipulation.. "We must allow our police to do whatever they want, or the criminals don't get caught" . But again, you keep insisting that the REps or Dems , one or the other , has to be like the Nazi party for ME to make the comparison. I still think you're not seeing the full picture of why the comparison is not "ludicrous" as you put it.




Yes there is a lot of prejudice in this country directed against Muslims. Yet it has not found a friendly reception within any branch of our government. President Bush was emphatic that we should refrain from blaming Muslims for 9-11, there have been no laws disenfranchising Muslims and religious freedom has been upheld by our courts. Attempts by enforcement agencies to profile Muslims have met opposition by the general populace and all branches of government. Not what would be expected in a police state.

Again, I never said it was ALREADY a police state...

There is alot of , I would not say prejudice, But an unfounded "touch with a pole" mistrust of Muslims. People don't go around saying "I think all muslims are terrorists and up to no good" but there certainly is an undercurrent of it. It does start somewhere. The hatred of the Jews was first mentioned in the Beer Halls of Munich, only to become a serious issue about 15 years later when the Nuremberg laws were issued.
Met opposition. They still do it.



You say our policies over the last 30-40 years are NO DIFFERENT from those of the NAZI era Germany. That’s simply ludicrous on the face of it!

No. I said, that our policies WERE NOT MET with glee by those that were affected by them. did the USA , issue an order to exterminate all arabs in the USA? Of course not. Did the USA Invade sovereign countries against their wishes. yes. Was that met with open arms in said country? Not by everyone. Did said country's angry people plot terrorist actions against American Interests? Yes. Did the USA becoming an Ally with Israel, cause certain people to hate us? Yes. did those people act on it? Yes. There you have it. If you read my post properly, you would've noticed that I said a country whose actions are questionable internationally and internally, are met with resistance, both internally and abroad. It reaches such a dangerous level, that said country, needs to develop a "protection department" to deal with these threats, caused by their very own foreign policy.




So where does this the-U.S.-is-a-police-state meme and the your-vote-doesn’t-count meme come from? It plays right into the ideology of the small-government and no-government conservatives, libertarians and gun nuts. You may or may not subscribe to these sophomoric political philosophies, but if you think the U.S. is a police state or that people shouldn’t bother voting ‘cause your vote doesn’t count, then your have been exposed to their viral memes and contracted the disease. Seek professional care.

It's not a meme. Simpletons such as yourself choose to think people are overreacting and you conveniently give it the vomit inducing label of "meme".

I didn't say "i think the U.S. is a police state". I said the similarities are there, and In my opinion it could very well become one, as the signs are already there. But, By your definition , it has to almost literally be like Nazi Germany in every way to be considered a "police state". Slowly becoming and "Is" are two very different things.

If anyone need professional care, it is you.

I've read you drivel on other threads, and you seem to think that if anyone disagrees with you , they are so blatantly wrong, they need to "seek professional care". And there's a circle jerk in this section of about 4 or 5 people that agree with you on every thing.

You are a condescending ignoramus at best. What you do excel at, is taking things out of context very consistently.

[TempestTS]

I have the greatest of admiration and respect for you as a woman and as a musician and in other ways Tempest, but i think you have a rather warped view of things and clearly do not really understand the nature of a "police state."

Can I suggest that you try reading about the situation in Eastern Europe and especially East Germany before the collapse of communism where the Stasi spied on everyone (A good primer is the book "The Stasi Files" or the movie "The Lives of Others") consider the situation in North Korea now or in Rumania before the overthrow of Ceaucescu or under Stalin in Russia or Mao in China. Consider the treatment meted out to dissenters in modern iran or to those who fail to observe the religious rules in Saudi Arabia. These are real authoritarian police states. These are places where to even talk about the dictator could get you imprisoned, tortured or killed.

Yes the fate of the native Americans is a deep and terrible stain on the history of the USAbut that does not make the modern US a police state. It is one of the freest nations in the modern world - despite the dubious activities of the CIA and NSA. There is much that is wrong with the US. Many things that all Americans need to work to correct. But if you look at the past 50 years and the progress of ethnic minorities, the civl rights recoms, gay rights etc etc... and in the past decade the election of the first African American President then surely you can see that there is much that is good and positive about the US (even when it has slipped into aggression against foreign nations under your previous president George W Bush). Perhaps after your next election it might even have its first female president. All signs of progress. No nation is perfect. No system is perfect. But the US is closer than most to being a civilised and acceptable place.

In modern america where are the pogroms, where are the extermination camps, the gulags, the forced re-education of mililons, the mass vanishings of sectors of the population ?

I make no qualms against robust debate - people are free to disagree with me and as I have pointed out I hope I am wrong - I just dont believe I am.

As I have said, would it be any better if I said the prelude to the police state? I grow tired of comparisons to the examples of Nazi germany at its height or the utter extremes of what a police state can be.

Extreme police states get that way from a slow and subtle rise in power and control that offer a gradual but continual erosion of personal freedoms - Such as the data bank the NSA currently has on American citizens costing black budget millions if not billions just to maintain all the electronic records - but of course it "NEVER" looks at honest citizens just the really bad ones - you can always tell the bad ones true villains always wear black hats and have the curly mustaches...

George Orwell's 1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual - how close are we to it now??? camera's everywhere - cellphones being monitored, internet posts collected into massive data centers digital profiling and DARPA doing multi million dollar studies on manipulation of crowd dynamics through social media... all being done to American's - most of the free world thinks we have gone stone cold crazy but most our nation is content to stick our heads in the sand and believe that the government is just protecting us from the really bad guys and its all for our own good... exactly the way almost every police state that has ever existed rose to power...

[TempestTS]

Addendum :)
We are the government. They are NOT two separate entities.

Keep thinking that... Im sure it will get a huge laugh out of most politicians...

I really, really want to believe in the dream... but Ive caught far too many glimpses of what happens when I open my eyes that I simply cant.

[trish]

...
I said they were very similar, and enough for a valid comparison and to be mentioned together.
...
You guys are suggesting Nazi Era Germany is THEE POLICE STATE that all future POLICE STATES must be measured against.

You said there was NO DIFFERENCE.

I'm suggesting that to be a police state there must be a central authority that controls the police and whose authority is maintained through the police.

You seem to be suggesting if the electorate grants law enforcement to obtain court orders to wiretap a phone, search a house, or confiscate Cliven Bundy's cattle then it's a police state. If law enforcement, not on orders from any other governmental agency, sometimes oversteps its authority, then its a police state. The difference is that, in the U.S., when enforcement makes an error in judgment the aggrieved as recourse through the law to set things right.

If you want to call us militaristic in our foreign policy, I might agree. If you want to say we have too many prisons and too many people in them, I agree. If you want to say that various enforcement agencies have made some very bad judgment calls, have profiled, beaten people and shot innocent people, I'd say yes. But none of that makes us a police state. It makes us a state with too many prisons and too many ill-trained police. That's to be expected when we live in a country where every politician promises to put even more police on the street corners. Why do they promise that? Because is gets them elected. And that's the main reason why we're not a police state: the only politicians that can take office are the ones that can garner the vote.

[TempestTS]

I didn't say "i think the U.S. is a police state". I said the similarities are there, and In my opinion it could very well become one, as the signs are already there. But, By your definition , it has to almost literally be like Nazi Germany in every way to be considered a "police state". Slowly becoming and "Is" are two very different things.


My My My <---- seems to have the gist of it...

[trish]

A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population.Good. Then it's settled: we do not have a police state.

[TempestTS]

In all sincerity I am very sorry what happened to your family. The United States committed grave atrocities against the Native American people. It is a dark stain on American history and human history. That doesn't mean the U.S. is currently a police state and has restricted all political freedom or quashed dissent in the way you indicate.

I know of at least nine members of my family who died in extermination camps. They lived in occupied Europe during WWII, but not within Germany. But if you take a look at the Nuremberg Laws you can get a flavor for how quickly things went downhill in Nazi Germany. This was as early as 1935.
Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws) .

It's not as if one day the Germans were executing a no knock warrant looking for contraband and the next day Jews were forbidden from marrying those of German stock. Or that people's conversations were being monitored and then the next day they were sent to concentration camps. This was the ethos from the night of the long knives forward.

In North Korea, people are sent to prison camps for saying anything considered hostile to the regime. People are executed summarily, without any right of appeal, and often for crimes that no civilized society would consider capital (vandalism, burglary). Some argue that our system of capital punishment is barbaric, and I think it should be abolished, but a system that only allows execution for murder and has multiple layers of appeal is not on a slippery slope to midnight executions of political opponents.

In NK, people are forbidden from having contact with the outside world, forbidden from leaving the country, restricted in their movements around the country, forced to have abortions, persecuted for their religious beliefs (and I don't mean forced to sponsor health care that includes coverage for contraception), and systematically starved to death. If you are interested in how this came about in North Korea, take a look at Kim Il-Sung's reign over NK and his practical deification within that country. Though I am not an expert on their history, it does not appear to have been gradual. I simply fail to see how policies legitimately tailored to fighting crime and subjected to judicial review can transform into a cult of personality where a leader considered a deity and thought to control the weather starves and imprisons a terrified populace.

The point is we arnt there yet - but things are continuing to slip - judicial review is being eroded - there is a growing number of cases where judges have lashed out at the actions of the FBI, NSA and Police only to be completely ignored. I gave you an example about the no fly rule which was virtually impossible to actually appeal - a judge ruled it unconstitutional in its current form the TSA and NSA has taken that under consideration but the policy stays in place... WTF seriously WTF?

History lesson - yeah to attain that kind of power over a country it can be very a slow process - power is seized slowly - going too fast results in civil war but take a little freedom away at a time and it gets hard to notice...

Our data continues to be gathered up in massive sweeps of any form of digital communications despite public outcry and even a rare bipartisan condemning by congress - they simply re worded the definition of their practices... hell even data overseas isnt safe as long as the company does business in the US it can be demanded by the US because we say the digital is different than paper... really? in today's world ?

Police cant search your phone - well unless its turned on and logged in but by the way if you get on a flight you might be asked to do just that...

NDAA has authorized indefinite detention if you have suspected ties to anything overseas or terror related - S U S P E C T E D !!!! not proven just suspected - no trial, no judge, no appeal, nothing...

No this isnt as bad as the scenario's you describe in NK and Nazi Germany but if too many of us stay silent Im worried we wont be able to prevent sliding closer and closer...

Sticking our heads in the sand wont solve anything...

Know where you are - and where you have been - if you want to see where you are going to.

[my my my!]

You said there was NO DIFFERENCE.



this is what i said:
Nazi era Germany (and the USA since 2001) knew full well, that their foreign and internal policies, were being met with resistance, and sometimes violence.

This is NO DIFFERENT , to the USA's policies of about the last 30-40 years. Done under the guise of protecting American Interests.

There is a difference to the actual policies...

There is no difference, in the knowing they would piss people off, just to protect their own interests. Still going ahead with it. creating enemies as a result. resulting in THE NEED FOR A PROTECTION DEPARTMENT , to deal with the internal issues caused by the incursions into other countries.

That's the similarity.

I'm not saying "The USA is exactly like the police state of Nazi Germany" , I'm saying they have many things in common.

After all, the necessity for a "protection department" is a big sign along with other similarities, that your government has downright awful internal and foreign policy issues that it needs such a department. The other ones that have seen the necessity of such a "department" are other police states as well. You as a country know you've messed up quite a bit, when your own people are enough of a danger to necessitate such a department.

you want the USA to slaughter Muslims as approved policy, for you to finally consider it a police state, or as sign that it is becoming one? By all means. think like that if you want.

[TempestTS]

The systematic suppression of dissent by laws punishing strictly political speech?

Ever hear of the Occupy movement ? Ever hear what happens to protesters protesting big corporations or banks... how their free speech is suppressed or how completely over the top the paramilitary police response is... hell half the time these days the police response out numbers the protesters - why the fuck would that be? - oh yeah I forgot - "Fear and Intimidation"

Apparently its ok to camp out for a playstation or superbowl tickets but not if you want to protest bankers. And dont give me any bullshit about it was for public health and safety because of weather conditions... ever see shoppers camped out at walmart before black Friday before Xmas?

Food for thought?

Here is a photo of the police response to the McDonalds protest for higher wages -- a bunch of minimum wage fry cooks and high school kids gets met by a massive police force that looks like its battle ready for any war. And all they wanted to do was protest that their wages were so low that it wasnt even possible to live on them.

Go ahead tell me thats not over the top - tell me that wasnt done specifically to intimidate - tell me that it was necessary - go on tell me...

[my my my!]

Ever hear of the Occupy movement ? Ever hear what happens to protesters protesting big corporations or banks... how their free speech is suppressed or how completely over the top the paramilitary police response is... hell half the time these days the police response out numbers the protesters - why the fuck would that be? - oh yeah I forgot - "Fear and Intimidation"

Apparently its ok to camp out for a playstation or superbowl tickets but not if you want to protest bankers. And dont give me any bullshit about it was for public health and safety because of weather conditions... ever see shoppers camped out at walmart before black Friday before Xmas?

Food for thought?

Here is a photo of the police response to the McDonalds protest for higher wages -- a bunch of minimum wage fry cooks and high school kids gets met by a massive police force that looks like its battle ready for any war. And all they wanted to do was protest that their wages were so low that it wasnt even possible to live on them.

Go ahead tell me thats not over the top - tell me that wasnt done specifically to intimidate - tell me that it was necessary - go on tell me...

Exactly Tempest.

They're going overboard, they've been going overboard. They will continue to go overboard, And it will take some of the people on this board, a baton to the face during a routing traffic stop or getting tackled to the ground and hit with a closed fist for jaywalking, to realize the police and other law enforcement are indeed practicing tactics generally associated with "Police States"

The fact they're dressed in full riot gear and assuming the worst from people, treating everyone as potential rioter, or thug. They believe everyone is a potential criminal, instead of thinking , "we shall protect the good citizens from the criminals". Innocent until proven guilty, is but a relic of the past. Now you have to go out of your way to prove your innocence. the Burden is on you , to make the "people" aka the District Attorney see the error in their ways.



Our government approves of this. As they do very little to punish these "peace officers". That in itself is "police state"-ish. When the government , short of encouraging this behavior, allows it to happen.

Add that to the dismal USA foreign policy of creating more problems than they solve. In the meantime , creating more populations that have a real anger towards the USA.

I agree with you 100% Tempest.

[trish]

to attain that kind of power over a country it can be very a slow process - power is seized slowly - going too fast results in civil war but take a little freedom away at a time and it gets hard to notice... So who’s garnering all this power over the country? How long can they take? This has been going on 30-40-50 years, right? So they must be getting pretty old by now. Who is it? The head of the NSA? The director is appointed by Secretary of Defense and approved by the President. The turnover is too frequent, so it can't be the director. The Secretary of Defense and the President turnover too frequently as well...can’t be them. Perhaps it's the agency itself. It has some sort of personality of its own...an artificial intelligence. Yeah, that’s the ticket.


Ever hear of the Occupy movement ? Yes, I was a participant.

Ever hear what happens to protesters protesting big corporations or banks... how their free speech is suppressed or how completely over the top the paramilitary police response is... hell half the time these days the police response out numbers the protesters - why the fuck would that be? This was of course an over reaction of the local police. They weren’t ordered by the NSA, or Homeland Security. So who is it then, making the move to gain absolute political power and turn us into a true police state? The Governor of California maybe? A Wall-Street Cabal.

Tempest wants us to force the two houses, the president and the supreme court of the U.S. government to resign (as in Iceland) because police in Berkeley over react to an Occupy protest. That just doesn't make sense.

If police states “exercise rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population” then who’s doing the exercising here. To have a police state you have to have someone or something exercising the police.

[TempestTS]

So who’s garnering all this power over the country? How long can they take? This has been going on 30-40-50 years, right? So they must be getting pretty old by now. Who is it? The head of the NSA? The director is appointed by Secretary of Defense and approved by the President. The turnover is too frequent, so it can't be the director. The Secretary of Defense and the President turnover too frequently as well...can’t be them. Perhaps it's the agency itself. It has some sort of personality of its own...an artificial intelligence. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Yes, I was a participant.
This was of course an over reaction of the local police. They weren’t ordered by the NSA, or Homeland Security. So who is it then, making the move to gain absolute political power and turn us into a true police state? The Governor of California maybe? A Wall-Street Cabal.

Tempest (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=900286-0410&PA=2058776) wants us to force the two houses, the president and the supreme court of the U.S. government to resign (as in Iceland) because police in Berkeley over react to an Occupy protest. That just doesn't make sense.

If police states “exercise rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population” then who’s doing the exercising here. To have a police state you have to have someone or something exercising the police.

A Wall Street Cabal ?

Why yes - havent you heard what Ive been saying

Who is gathering power - banks and corporations - warned about by Thomas Jefferson and just as strongly by Eisenhower...

Protests of banks and corporations are being met by massive police forces - who is calling the shots here and why are they responding en-mass ? If its our elected officials then why are they protecting the corporations more than the people?

you "were" a member of the Occupy movement - I still am

Why did you stop? Occupy has barely scratched the surface there is much more to be done... did the cops scare you away or was it because even a large group of people made hardly difference at all against the control of the mega corporations and massive banks?

Do you think it was only in Berkley the cops over reacted ? You realize I can give examples all day long... Lets not bring it to that - accept that its much more wide spread than an isolated incident - if you were in Occupy you know that to be completely true

Do I want to ask the government to step down - NO - I want it to represent the people and I feel that it has failed to do so for quite some time -

Here are the choices for those who govern

Do your job - represent the people for the good of the people - but them before all else
If you cant do your job step down and let someone worthy of leading do the job
If you wont drop out you will eventually be forced out

This is history - the world over - and yes its simple

[trish]

Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

[TempestTS]

Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

Not what I said - not at all - now Im not sure I believe you were part of the occupy movement as you said you were.

Do I need to go over how powerful banks and corporations are and how strongly they influence elections yet again...

Have you so lost this debate that are left to misdirection and mockery to make your point?

and DO you really remember Occupy ?


six-month anniversary of the start of Occupy Wall Street…When the police moved in to the park that night, in formation and with batons, to arrest a massive number of nonviolent protesters, the chaos was terrifying.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/3ce140e8b5c724417f7ec9a457947254/tumblr_inline_n568254ZXN1s27oyr.jpg

[broncofan]

this is what i said:
Nazi era Germany (and the USA since 2001) knew full well, that their foreign and internal policies, were being met with resistance, and sometimes violence.

This is NO DIFFERENT , to the USA's policies of about the last 30-40 years. Done under the guise of protecting American Interests.

There is a difference to the actual policies...

There is no difference, in the knowing they would piss people off, just to protect their own interests. Still going ahead with it. creating enemies as a result. resulting in THE NEED FOR A PROTECTION DEPARTMENT , to deal with the internal issues caused by the incursions into other countries.

That's the similarity.

I'm not saying "The USA is exactly like the police state of Nazi Germany" , I'm saying they have many things in common.

After all, the necessity for a "protection department" is a big sign along with other similarities, that your government has downright awful internal and foreign policy issues that it needs such a department. The other ones that have seen the necessity of such a "department" are other police states as well. You as a country know you've messed up quite a bit, when your own people are enough of a danger to necessitate such a department.

you want the USA to slaughter Muslims as approved policy, for you to finally consider it a police state, or as sign that it is becoming one? By all means. think like that if you want.
I'm sorry but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read in this section. Because our country has a department dedicated to internal security, that makes it a police state? Only Nazi Germany and other police states have agencies or departments focused on domestic based threats? If you are going to choose a parallel, why not choose something that only the country you are making the comparison to has?

I am sure that just about every Western country and many Eastern ones have similar departments to deal with domestic terror threats. Would you like me to compile a list of agencies that handle terrorist threats in other countries? Edit: Wikipedia has already done it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-intelligence_and_counter-terrorism_organizations

What's next, you're going to tell us that Nazi Germany also had an equivalent of the department of transportation and since we do to we're a police state?

Trish is also not saying that the United States must "slaughter muslims as approved policy" for our foreign policy to trouble her but if you are going to compare the United States to a country whose hallmark was liquidating its own citizens based on racial characteristics, then you should find actual points of comparison. The parallels should be a little tighter than "well they were aggressive and knew other countries might not like that aggressiveness..." This is not a basis for an analogy but a vague and unclear standard.

Finally, of course police aggression against protesters is wrong. The question is whether the directions have come from the top down. Are the protesters being dispersed because the government is trying to prevent their message from being spread or is it a regulation of the time, place, and manner of speech? Back in the 60's police officers used to use violence against protesters based on their message. If we are on a road to police statehood shouldn't the force used be getting worse?

BTW, the wiki list includes agencies aimed at both international and domestic safety.

[TempestTS]

I'm sorry but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read in this section. Because our country has a department dedicated to internal security, that makes it a police state? Only Nazi Germany and other police states have agencies or departments focused on domestic based threats? If you are going to choose a parallel, why not choose something that only the country you are making the comparison to has?

I am sure that just about every Western country and many Eastern ones have similar departments to deal with domestic terror threats. Would you like me to compile a list of agencies that handle terrorist threats in other countries? Edit: Wikipedia has already done it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-intelligence_and_counter-terrorism_organizations

What's next, you're going to tell us that Nazi Germany also had an equivalent of the department of transportation and since we do to we're a police state?

Trish is also not saying that the United States must "slaughter muslims as approved policy" for our foreign policy to trouble her but if you are going to compare the United States to a country whose hallmark was liquidating its own citizens based on racial characteristics, then you should find actual points of comparison. The parallels should be a little tighter than "well they were aggressive and knew other countries might not like that aggressiveness..." This is not a basis for an analogy but a vague and unclear standard.

Finally, of course police aggression against protesters is wrong. The question is whether the directions have come from the top down. Are the protesters being dispersed because the government is trying to prevent their message from being spread or is it a regulation of the time, place, and manner of speech? Back in the 60's police officers used to use violence against protesters based on their message. If we are on a road to police statehood shouldn't the force used be getting worse?

BTW, the wiki list includes agencies aimed at both international and domestic safety.

I think the point that was being made was that our the department we have to deal with domestic and overseas threats has grown overtly large and is viewed by most of the European countries you cite as having similar agencies that ours is growing out of control...

Police response force getting stronger - Holy FUCK!!! have you seen how they are armed these days??? - the armored troop carriers - the massive battle armor and armaments ? how can you possibly say its the same

[broncofan]

I think the point that was being made was that our the department we have to deal with domestic and overseas threats has grown overtly large and is viewed by most of the European countries you cite as having similar agencies that ours is growing out of control...

Police response force getting stronger - Holy FUCK!!! have you seen how they are armed these days??? - the armored troop carriers - the massive battle armor and armaments ? how can you possibly say its the same
He said that only a country that is a police state necessitates an agency like the department of homeland security. You know before the department of homeland security was created, the FBI handled all domestic terror threats. It only made sense to separate those functions after a major attack on our homeland.

I am saying I don't think the actual violence police officers use in putting down what they view as disturbances has gotten worse. They may be more heavily armed to ward off threats, but vietnam war protests were often very violent, as were labor disputes, which frequently led to deaths in the early 20th century.

[TempestTS]

Spending on police protection has increased 445 percent since 1982 while The number of sworn police officers has only increased by 62%

I wonder where all that money is going - oh yeah tactical armaments

Seriously ??? ---> Broncofan - has nothing has changed with our police force is it just the same as in the 1960's - are you really expecting me to believe that or have you just convinced your self ?

[my my my!]

I'm sorry but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read in this section. Because our country has a department dedicated to internal security, that makes it a police state? Only Nazi Germany and other police states have agencies or departments focused on domestic based threats? If you are going to choose a parallel, why not choose something that only the country you are making the comparison to has?

I am sure that just about every Western country and many Eastern ones have similar departments to deal with domestic terror threats. Would you like me to compile a list of agencies that handle terrorist threats in other countries? Edit: Wikipedia has already done it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-intelligence_and_counter-terrorism_organizations

What's next, you're going to tell us that Nazi Germany also had an equivalent of the department of transportation and since we do to we're a police state?

Trish is also not saying that the United States must "slaughter muslims as approved policy" for our foreign policy to trouble her but if you are going to compare the United States to a country whose hallmark was liquidating its own citizens based on racial characteristics, then you should find actual points of comparison. The parallels should be a little tighter than "well they were aggressive and knew other countries might not like that aggressiveness..." This is not a basis for an analogy but a vague and unclear standard.

Finally, of course police aggression against protesters is wrong. The question is whether the directions have come from the top down. Are the protesters being dispersed because the government is trying to prevent their message from being spread or is it a regulation of the time, place, and manner of speech? Back in the 60's police officers used to use violence against protesters based on their message. If we are on a road to police statehood shouldn't the force used be getting worse?

BTW, the wiki list includes agencies aimed at both international and domestic safety.

The word asinine, and more appropriately "clueless" is your interpretation of things that have been said in this thread.

[TempestTS]

He said that only a country that is a police state necessitates an agency like the department of homeland security. You know before the department of homeland security was created, the FBI handled all domestic terror threats. It only made sense to separate those functions after a major attack on our homeland.

I am saying I don't think the actual violence police officers use in putting down what they view as disturbances has gotten worse. They may be more heavily armed to ward off threats, but vietnam war protests were often very violent, as were labor disputes, which frequently led to deaths in the early 20th century.

I agree the Vietnam protests were indeed violent - and look at how history turned out on that one - were the police in the Right ? hell no... did they say they were - oh you bet they did...

I have no problem with to separate departments - but why the hell has the NSA ballooned up freakishly fast - do you really want me to dredge up stats on this or are you willing to admit its gone overboard and gotten kinda crazy - I mean we are spending 5 MILLION dollars a month just hold the data from all the phone calls in Haiti - come on tell me thats not out of control?

[Prospero]

My My My's remarks are pretty naive. Comparisons with Nazi germany are totally spurious. Of course one should not be complacent about any political system. The UK has many,many things that are wrong - as does the US (Especially in its foreign policy - and the advance of the religious unthinking right and in issues of gun control) But no way is it heading towards the sort of totaliarianism of Nazi Germany of the Eastern bloc. It is paranoia ad the libertarian right that wants to create that notion for some dubious ends.

[trish]

Originally Posted by trish http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/ca_serenity/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1510974#post1510974) Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.


Not what I said - not at all - now Im not sure I believe you were part of the occupy movement as you said you were.

Do I need to go over how powerful banks and corporations are and how strongly they influence elections yet again...

Have you so lost this debate that are left to misdirection and mockery to make your point?

You say we're a police state. My-my-my (that guy you say "totally gets it") defines a police state for us as one that "exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population." So I asked (and still do): In the case of the police state known as the U.S.A., who's exercising the police, a cabal of Wall Street bankers perhaps? Your immediate response is


Why yes - havent you heard what Ive been saying

Who is gathering power - banks and corporations - warned about by Thomas Jefferson and just as strongly by Eisenhower... .

So your exact claim is that a cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

That's logic. Not misdirection. You now see that the claim is worthy of mockery. So I will allow you to withdraw it. All you have to do is withdraw the claim that the U.S. is a police state, or pull back from the my-my-my's claim that a police state is one that exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population. BTW the definition was lifted from Wikipedia.

[TempestTS]

Originally Posted by trish http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/ca_serenity/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1510974#post1510974) Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.



You say we're a police state. My-my-my (that guy you say "totally gets it") defines a police state for us as one that "exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population." So I asked (and still do): In the case of the police state known as the U.S.A., who's exercising the police, a cabal of Wall Street bankers perhaps? Your immediate response is

.

So your exact claim is that a cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

That's logic. Not misdirection. You now see that the claim is worthy of mockery. So I will allow you to withdraw it. All you have to do is withdraw the claim that the U.S. is a police state, or pull back from the my-my-my's claim that a police state is one that exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population. BTW the definition was lifted from Wikipedia.

Still misdirection via inference to another persons statement and paraphrasing

I have no need to withdraw any claim since the counterclaim is baseless.

[my my my!]

My My My's remarks are pretty naive. Comparisons with Nazi germany are totally spurious. Of course one should not be complacent about any political system. The UK has many,many things that are wrong - as does the US (Especially in its foreign policy - and the advance of the religious unthinking right and in issues of gun control) But no way is it heading towards the sort of totaliarianism of Nazi Germany of the Eastern bloc. It is paranoia ad the libertarian right that wants to create that notion for some dubious ends.

They're not naive at all man.

I've studied Nazi Germany for more than 20 years. and Have lived all my 38 years in the USA.

For me, it is completely fair to point out the similarities and support others that do see similarities and the BEGINNING signs of the USA possibly becoming a police state in the future. Here where I live, the police get away with justified shootings quite often, as they are quite the trigger happy bunch. A border patrol agent, is now being sued for 15 million dollars, because a Mexican boy 10 years old threw a rock at him, and the border patrol agent's reaction was to shoot SEVERAL TIMES, into MEXICO. Fatally wounding the boy. Initially , he "got away with it" , as it was termed "self defense" . Not excesssive? Hmmm...

NEVER have I said, that the USA is EXACTLY like Nazi Germany, that I admit would be ludicrous.

You guys keep thinking I'm comparing them side by side and saying

Slaughtering of Jews: Germany check , USa Check
A central dictator: Germany check , Usa Check

I'm simply bringing up some warning signs, that if Left unchecked , could theoretically result in an actual police state. While my personal belief, is that the groundwork is already there, and it is in it's infant stages.

The USA might actually become the first country where a collective plebiscite unknowingly creates it's own police state. And they might totally be ok with it. And it might take 10-15 years before people finally call it a "police state" , But the theory is, that those same american will be totally content with it, since it will be in their "best interests" much like the German populace was happy (on the surface).

sorry , for you guys thinking I'm an idiot. but I ran these posts by several friends. And they agree, that you guys are stuck in some lala land and are failing to see the similarities because your mind blocks it. You are stuck in "Nazi germany really really really really bad" "USA , nice, but has bad stuff"

[trish]

So let’s see. You believe
1) The U.S. is a police state.
2) You just affirmed that “a police state exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.” (At least you refused to distance yourself from this...the Wikipedia definition of a police state)
3) Your examples of police infraction include local, State and Federal police agencies.
4) Who’s directing the nation’s local, State, and Federal agencies to rigidly and repressively police our social, economic and political lives? Your answer: a cabal of Wall Street bankers.
5) But you disavow the statement: A cabal of Wall Street bankers is directing local, State and Federal enforcement agencies to rigidly and repressively police our social, economic and political lives. Indeed you seem to think it’s a mockery of your position. So much for modus ponens. :shrug

Instead of disbanding the Federal government, why don’t we work on identifying that cabal and send the militia after ‘em?

Speaking of drawing parallels with Nazi Germany, how about the tendency to blame the Nation's problems on a cabal of bankers?

[fred41]

Many of the local police forces in the major cities may look more intimidating because of the military style equipment they received...but to say they are more brutal than 30 years ago ?!...I've lived in one of the largest cities in the U.S.A. (N.Y.C) since I was seven...I'm 52....30 years ago the police were far more brutal (and corrupt)here even though crime was rampant...It doesn't even compare. Cases of police brutality will always exist due to the individual officer, bad supervision or an overall bad policy that often gets changed... through voting .

[TempestTS]

Many of the local police forces in the major cities may look more intimidating because of the military style equipment they received...but to say they are more brutal than 30 years ago ?!...I've lived in one of the largest cities in the U.S.A. (N.Y.C) since I was seven...I'm 52....30 years ago the police were far more brutal (and corrupt)here even though crime was rampant...It doesn't even compare. Cases of police brutality will always exist due to the individual officer, bad supervision or an overall bad policy that often gets changed... through voting .

Not sure who this is directed at but I dont believe I said the police are more brutal - I said the police force is far more powerful and better armed than it was 30 years ago to an absurd level -

seriously why do the police need to spend millions on 6 wheel armored personnel carriers? The number one expenditure request is currently Drones and covert surveillance for cell towers and computers (which dont require a warrant the same way a wire tap would)

yes the worst of the worst criminals are better armed too but no where near that level - when have you seen a gang member driving a scaled down tank? Hell our police force is has better personal battle armor than the forces we send into combat. Have our protests turned suddenly violent - is this down town Lebanon? Because thats what it looks like they are prepared to march into...

And its all costing us billions!

Who's it for? - who are we at war with here on our own soil ? nothing else would justify that kind of armament.

Remember police spending went up over 400% do you feel 4 times safer - I sure the hell dont

There's a line for providing law officers with the tools to do their job safely thats reasonable and that I would be completely in favor of - unfortunately that line is barely visible is so distant from what we are becoming today.

[the_unnatural]

Maybe the title of this thread should be, Fuck, the cops seem kind of out-of-hand these days.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/staten-island-man-dies-puts-choke-hold-article-1.1871486

[TempestTS]

Maybe the title of this thread should be, Fuck, the cops seem kind of out-of-hand these days.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/staten-island-man-dies-puts-choke-hold-article-1.1871486


Murder by cop - the man was being very passive even while they were hassling him - he made no threatening motions or statements there was no reason for a half dozen cops to drag him to the ground including one using a choke hold and applying his full body weight to it the cop had his feet off the ground and his forearm against the mans wind pipe almost immediately and rode him all the way to the ground. Then the police ignored his pleading that he couldn't breathe long after the situation was under control...

the person filming, despite being a reasonable distance away was asked repeatedly to move farther away - no doubt because of the camera - you dont need a 30 ft perimeter there was no danger and the situation was completely controlled by the police - they just didnt want to be seen or heard on video in any detail.

The person filming did a great job, kept a level head, was polite and complied with requests even the unreasonable request to leave his bike behind which was nearly within arms reach.

The cop with the choke hold should face charges - manslaughter at very least... all the others that didnt act to stop him are accessories to the crime.

But we all know how this turns out - internal investigation - no comment - paid leave and re assigned with out being punished to a different area quietly after the media sensation dies down.

Yeah fuck em... A man died who didnt need to.

[the_unnatural]

Well, he looked threatening, so I guess that kind of excessive force was necessary.

[trish]

Yes. Police in many communities are out of control. The exact opposite of under control of a central authority directing their actions to rigidly and repressively control our social, economic and political lives. What we find instead is too many incidents of ill-trained, prejudiced and mean spirited police overreacting to minor or imagined infractions. This does not meet the definition of a "police state." It is the the expected consequence of an electorate that votes for the politician who promises to get tough on crime, get tough on crime, get tough on "illegals" and put more police on the streets. Cries of revolution are idiot-illogic. The problems is that not enough Americans understand the root causes of criminal activities and/or are unwilling to address them.

A better and more constructive name for this thread would indeed be "Fuck the Cops". Better yet, instead of wasting time accusing the U.S.(or a cabal of Wall Street bankers) of directing law enforcement agencies on every level (from the smallest municipality to the FBI) to rigidly and repressively control our social, economic and political lives we could instead discuss those aspects of our social, economic and political lives that encourages the majority of the electorate to vote for more guns, more police, more prisons and tougher policies.

[Cuchulain]

Good thread. It's a topic that we should all be aware of. A few months ago I watched a YouTube vid of a cop beating the Hell out of some poor bastard for no apparent reason. Then I watched another and another and... I was shocked at how many vids like that have been posted. Documentation of police misconduct includes intimidation, threats, brutal violence, false arrest and, all too frequently, death. Most of the time, the offending cops get away with it. Their own departments investigate and clear them. Even when they do get fired, they can usually get hired by another police force. Why does this happen? Because, as someone pointed out, Americans are too complacent or scared to do anything about it.

Armed rebellion ain't the answer. Not nearly enough folks are willing to be that extreme. I think the best thing we can do is demonstrated by the type of vids I mentioned. Pick up a camera and film every police encounter you see. It takes guts - cops are NOT fond of being filmed. Post the ones that show cops 'behaving badly' on the web. It doesn't seem like enough, I know, but it gets the message out. The police are forced to respond. The trend of people filming cops has been a driving force in many police departments putting cameras in patrol cars and even on officers. Cops are less likely to act up when they know they are being filmed.

Check out http://photographyisnotacrime.com/ I think it's an important site. And BE CAREFUL OUT THERE.

[fred41]

What we find instead is too many incidents of ill-trained, prejudiced and mean spirited police overreacting to minor or imagined infractions. This does not meet the definition of a "police state."

This.
It's not always training either...any type of law enforcement job is going to attract overly macho assholes, people that need to make up for short comings, sadists, etc.
Pedophiles try to get jobs with children...sadists will get attracted to jobs like this. It's the dept's job to weed out the bad apples, but it's impossible to do 100% of the time.
In this particular case, I believe, the officer used a choke hold, that training dictates - can not be used. There were enough officers there that they could have taken him down by his arms...
...but...my argument would have been - why bother with that anyway? -
The man was selling cigarettes.
crime of the century.
Staten Island has plenty of real crime and they focus on this? How about realizing what to go after and what to ignore, to help keep the local community on your side...and it's not trickle down from the administration either, since our Mayor here is now Bill De Blasio...just Google him.

Since the beginning of time, local state, city and town law enforcement has had stories like this, and they always will. But now with cell phones and internet, and other social media, we have more access...a good thing...but that doesn't mean these things all necessarily tie together.

[fred41]

The trend of people filming cops has been a driving force in many police departments putting cameras in patrol cars and even on officers. Cops are less likely to act up when they know they are being filmed.

Inherently true.
Also a very useful trend for training future law enforcement.

One other thing folks - when you see a video or read a story - of a particular incident, don't always take it at face value - do your own research and find out if what you are seeing is the whole story...sometimes it is....sometimes it's not. It's amazing that we have search engines at our finger tips and people still don't use them.

[trish]

Excellent post Cuchulain...and an excellent suggestion.

The problem is not that we’re a police state (which would imply that these examples of brutality were orchestrated) but rather we’re a nation with too many random and brutal incidences of police misconduct. This is no doubt a result of social ills__some already identified and some yet to be identified.

I’m not sure we can attribute all this emphasis on putting more police on the streets to fear. Yes there’s a lot of fear mongering, but crime is actually down. I don’t meet a lot of voters who are genuinely afraid to walk the streets or are fixated on fear. Most only think about it when it comes up in a political context. What I do meet is people who project testosterone laden personalities. People who like to talk a big game and walk with swagger. People whose reaction to any social ill or problem is to get tough on it. Too much poverty? Those lazy louts should get jobs. Children crossing our southern border? Put more soldiers on the border, increase the number of border guards. Too many drugs? Build more prisons. Establish mandatory sentences.

What America has is an identity crises. We’re a nation of couch potatoes who wannabe tough guys.

[TempestTS]

cops with dash cams and body cams only go so far - already there is a growing trend to having these cameras suddenly "malfunction"

Such as this officer who shot and killed a 19 yo girl during his 3rd camera malfunction - all 3 "malfunctions" were during incidents involving the use of force...

apparently the rest of the department isnt saying anything - its all internal - so much for judical review and checks and balances - one might even say they protect their own and are above the law but that couldnt happen here - I mean Trish says if it did our elected officials would listen to the voters and these types of incidents would be long gone by now - I better add that was sarcasm or she's likely to misquote me on it in the future.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-history-malfunctioning-body-cam-shoots-19-year-old-girl-yep-malfunction/

[trish]

The politicians ARE listening. What they're hearing is people want more police, more guards, more prisons and tougher policies. Instead of advocating revolution, I'm suggesting we change our collective attitude. Don't vote for these policies and the numbskulls who advocate them. Currently that would mean voting against the prevailing culture. But hey, you're a rebel; you can do it. But not voting isn't enough. You also have to vote. You got to find your local candidates who support sane policies and support them.

[TempestTS]

Excellent post Cuchulain...and an excellent suggestion.

The problem is not that we’re a police state (which would imply that these examples of brutality were orchestrated) but rather we’re a nation with too many random and brutal incidences of police misconduct. This is no doubt a result of social ills__some already identified and some yet to be identified.

I’m not sure we can attribute all this emphasis on putting more police on the streets to fear. Yes there’s a lot of fear mongering, but crime is actually down. I don’t meet a lot of voters who are genuinely afraid to walk the streets or are fixated on fear. Most only think about it when it comes up in a political context. What I do meet is people who project testosterone laden personalities. People who like to talk a big game and walk with swagger. People whose reaction to any social ill or problem is to get tough on it. Too much poverty? Those lazy louts should get jobs. Children crossing our southern border? Put more soldiers on the border, increase the number of border guards. Too many drugs? Build more prisons. Establish mandatory sentences.

What America has is an identity crises. We’re a nation of couch potatoes who wannabe tough guys.

These are more than isolated incidents - they are pervasive - and there is little to no accountability and no checks and balances for the actions of the police. Our freedom of speech is in serious peril - ever notice that when the NRA assembles to protest about gun rights they can be well armed and freely assemble without being hassled by the cops - but if a group assembles to protest a bank or corporation in a peaceful manner its met with a HUGE police response... explain that one to me - Im dying to know...

I met a lot of voters afraid to walk the streets when the RNC was here in Minneapolis - the mass of the police force was unfreaking real protesters were hassled in their own front yards and told they had to go back inside their homes or take it elsewhere. I wouldnt even drive within a mile of any rally because they were running people in for anything they could find. I know a good number of homeless or minorities who are terrified if they see a squad car - hell Ill Ill walk a block out of my way or at least cross the street if I see a cluster of cops with nothing to do... I dont want to be their entertainment for the evening.

My partner works social outreach and was handing out flyers for food shelters and other social services and she was yanked aside by the cops and told she had to empty her bags (which are big and bright GREEN sampted with STREETWORKS OUTREACH) bacause they said she was passing out drugs - WTF ok first off who just goes around handing out drugs for free - secondly they had no evidence no complaints nothing at all - yet she was told if she didnt want to be detained she had to comply WTF - bullshit bullshit bullshit - I probably would have stood up for my rights and been locked up but she's a bit more reasonable when it comes to unreasonable requests.

Crime is down but prison population is way way way UP - funny how those two numbers dont seem to correlate.... furthermore how do we know crime is down - we have been told that year after year after year - you'd think it would be completely gone just from how many times we have heard it - oh I forget the people who tell us that are the Fucking Police Departments - they supply the numbers. Ever notice the only time "Crime rate is up" is when they want funding ?

Fuck-balls Trish - I thought you were smarter than to buy into all that bullshit.

[TempestTS]

The politicians ARE listening. What they're hearing is people want more police, more guards, more prisons and tougher policies. Instead of advocating revolution, I'm suggesting we change our collective attitude. Don't vote for these policies and the numbskulls who advocate them. Currently that would mean voting against the prevailing culture. But hey, you're a rebel; you can do it. But not voting isn't enough. You also have to vote. You got to find your local candidates who support sane policies and support them.

Really? I see and hear about protests against opressive policing, the NDAA act, the NSA, The TSA and the privacy invasions by all the other 3-4 letter agencies out there.

I cant recall one single "Please tap my cell phone" or " We want you to read our email " rally.

Who are these politicians listening to - themseves and the millitary industrial complex that has been on the rise in our nation for decades - Eisenhower a strong conservative warned against it because there was a rapid growth in power happening by the financial institutions and corporations - Thomas Jefferson warned against it saying that banks and corporations were more dangerous to our country than any standing army - and that was 200 years ago...

A cabal of wallstreet bankers do exist and wield MASSIVE MASSIVE power there is money in war - Many banks have actually funded BOTH SIDES - do you think the homeland "war on terror" is any different at all - do you have any idea how much money is being made to militarize our police force - who wants that - the people selling the guns and providing the money to buy them of course - IE right back to banks and corporations - OCCUPY understood that and if you ever were a part of that movement you would too.

[TempestTS]

Most of the time, the offending cops get away with it. Their own departments investigate and clear them. Even when they do get fired, they can usually get hired by another police force. Why does this happen? Because, as someone pointed out, Americans are too complacent or scared to do anything about it.

Cops are less likely to act up when they know they are being filmed.

Check out http://photographyisnotacrime.com/ I think it's an important site. And BE CAREFUL OUT THERE.


Per my previous I just wanted to add this

These are all good points - but the police know we all have a camera in our pockets as part of our cell phones - and yes they really REALLY hate being filmed - You can read it on their faces when the camera comes out - if they thought for a second they could get away with smashing it and running someone in they would - actually they have - it makes the news if the overlook the person with the other camera but it happens.

Now on to the first statement about Americans being too afraid to do anything about the police violence and misconduct - if this was anyone other than the police who used force, fear and intimidation to control or manipulate a population it would be called a terror tactic now wouldn't it?

hell someone else posed in this forum about animal rights activists being charged with domestic terrorism for freeing animals - now why do the police get away with far far worse?

[the_unnatural]

This is one of my favorties...

http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/bottled-water-purchase-leads-to-night-in-jail-for-uva/article_b5ab5f62-df9b-11e2-81c4-0019bb30f31a.html

[trish]

If these are incidences of police abuse are neither isolated nor random but orchestrated, then which Wall Street banker ordered the cops to beat up a little old lady? Name some names.

[TempestTS]

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/indiana-sheriff-usa-become-war-zone/




Indiana sheriff wants military vehicles because “the USA has become a war zone”

"The United States of America has become a war zone," said Pulaski County Sheriff Michael Gayer.

Posted on June 9, 2014 by Site Staff (http://www.policestateusa.com/author/psusa/) in News (http://www.policestateusa.com/category/news/)
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/warrior-cops.jpg (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/warrior-cops.jpg) (Source: Timothy A. Clary/AFP/Getty)

PULASKI COUNTY, IN — As the Department of Defense continues to flood America’s local police departments with military equipment, some cops are letting the propaganda and the free toys go to their heads. One sheriff in Indiana let out a disturbing admission that he views America as a battlefield — making it imperative, in his opinion, to equip his deputies with gear fresh out of the hands of U.S. soldiers fighting overseas.
“The United States of America has become a war zone,” said Pulaski County Sheriff Michael Gayer in an interview with the Indianapolis Star (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/06/07/police-officer-safety-surplus-zeal-military-equipment-spurs-debate-mrap-military-vehicle/10170225/).
His department has received attention after it sought out and acquired a Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle through the Pentagon’s police militarization program.
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sheriff-Michael-Gayer-300x225.jpg (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sheriff-Michael-Gayer.jpg) Pulaski County (Indiana) Sheriff Michael Gayer (Source: WKVI)

Sheriff Gayer remarked about the MRAP, “It’s a lot more intimidating than a Dodge.”
Pulaski County is extremely rural, containing only 13,124 residents. In 2012, Pulaski County only 11 theft (or larceny) incidents, 1 murder and a grand total of 17 property crimes. Despite this, sprawling farm county has procured hundreds of military items, valued at over $5,000,000.00, under Sheriff Gayer’s leadership. The items, listed in a database (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/06/07/interactive-military-surplus-goes-to-local-police/9924655/) at the Indy Star, range from dozens of vehicles, weapons, tactical equipment, bayonets, tools, and more.
Gayer defends the lucrative federal handouts by spreading paranoia about crime in America.
“There’s violence in the workplace, there’s violence in schools and there’s violence in the streets,” said Gayer. “You are seeing police departments going to a semi-military format because of the threats we have to counteract. If driving a military vehicle is going to protect officers, then that’s what I’m going to do.”
Sheriff Gayer elaborates about the perceived battlefronts he faces on the department website (http://www.pulaskisheriff.net/): “With the threat of homeland terrorism, rising violence in our schools, drug and alcohol abuse, our society and freedoms that we so dearly cherish are being challenged,” Gayer wrote.
So there we have it. The enemies Pulaski County faces are terrorists, unruly students, and prohibition violators.
“I will do this to the best of my ability and will not allow The Thin Blue Line to weaken by those who would do us harm,” Gayer added on the website.
Larry Thomas, a Hoosier, veteran police officer, and past contributor to Police State USA, wrote the following in response to Sheriff Gayer’s statements:
As a retired law enforcement command officer I was dismayed to read the remarks of Pulaski County Sheriff Michael Gayer, who said, “The United States of America has become a war zone. There’s violence in the workplace, there’s violence in schools and there’s violence in the streets.”
During my tenure in law enforcement there was violence in those places too. But it did not motivate us to transform from public servants and peacekeepers into warriors, taking weapons that were designed for foreign battlefields and turning them on the American people.
We were reluctant to deploy SWAT teams, fully realizing the violent response that such a display could provoke and employing such tactics only in the most extreme circumstances. Law enforcement agencies are now eager to deploy such teams even in a total absence of demonstrated need.
Here in my own city of Carmel, an incident occurred, reported in these pages, wherein a SWAT team deployed and terrorized a local family, jamming guns in their faces and dragging them away in handcuffs, based on nothing more than a single, unverified, uncorroborated phone call that a shooting had taken place. The report proved to be false.
This would have been simply impossible in my day. When we received such a phone call we sent officers to the location, and we knocked on the door! Wow! What a revolutionary concept!
No, Sheriff Gayer…The United States of America is NOT a war zone. It is the place where Americans work, live and play. Law enforcement officers who are trained that America is a war zone do not regard citizens as individuals with rights to be protected, but as an enemy to be subjugated. And if the law enforcement profession does not wake up and change this attitude, we, the people, will be forced to call on our legislators to rein you in.
Lieutenant Harry Thomas

[TempestTS]

If these are incidences of police abuse are neither isolated nor random but orchestrated, then which Wall Street banker ordered the cops to beat up a little old lady? Name some names.

Dont be an asshat - thats like asking which general order a soldier so shoot a specific target.

Its more like a big corporation with billiions in funding who is making drones - the military wants the drones - protests are bad for the military getting them and the corporation selling them - this is a huge issue so they go to the local police department and say "you need to get these protesters under control this is massive to our interests" and because the airbase and corporations weild enormous financial power the police jump to it and end up locking up some old lady who was taking pictures to "Send a message" to all other protesters that the police are a force to be reckoned with and basically quell the free speech through intimidation.

Follow the money - always follow the money - greed is the worst thing that ever happened to this world but those who have it always have power.

[TempestTS]

there are over 18,000,000 empty homes in the US - thats enough for every homless person to have six - yet when a bank wants to foreclose the sherrif and police department hop to it like its their responsibility to put a family on the street and do the banks bidding -

why are the police doing the banks bidding? - this is a civil matter not a criminal matter - this country was founding by people fleeing persecution for debt - and here it is again

[trish]

In my town, once and sometimes twice a year, the school principal invites the police to come into the school to do a K-9 search of the lockers. This is a ridiculous policy. We have no problem with drugs and the search only ever comes up with Tylenol and cigarettes. I and others have written letters to the paper , the Principal, the local police, the Mayor and others. But the town as a whole believes it's a wonderful thing to do and when it's time to vote for a new police chief, or a Mayor or a school board member they vote for the get tough on drugs candidates. It's not Wall Street bankers directing the K-9 unit to search the school, it's the local school and the cops carrying out a policy endorsed by the electorate.

[TempestTS]

In my town, once and sometimes twice a year, the school principal invites the police to come into the school to do a K-9 search of the lockers. This is a ridiculous policy. We have no problem with drugs and the search only ever comes up with Tylenol and cigarettes. I and others have written letters to the paper , the Principal, the local police, the Mayor and others. But the town as a whole believes it's a wonderful thing to do and when it's time to vote for a new police chief, or a Mayor or a school board member they vote for the get tough on drugs candidates. It's not Wall Street bankers directing the K-9 unit to search the school, it's the local school and the cops carrying out a policy endorsed by the electorate.


Seriously thats the best you have - a dog and pony show of the school and police being "tough on drugs" twice a year to impress voters.

Weak.

Why do they want to be tough on drugs because its generally popular and its a known "evil" thats an easy target - and there is HUGE funding attached to it. I mean who wants drugs in schools - nobody - it doesnt matter that they never find any and that the cost to do the search is probably in the thousands of dollars per hour - we are afraid of drugs and the crimes that come with them so of course we want to make show about how local LE fights it the fear is so bad that no politician would ever come out against it no matter how useless it is. Fear = Control

How many times do I have to give this lesson - All Wars are Bankers wars - the war on drugs is just the same - its hugely profitable for LE and the industry that supports them and it goes on FOREVER so its like a money machine.

[TempestTS]

The politicians ARE listening. What they're hearing is people want more police, more guards, more prisons and tougher policies. Instead of advocating revolution, I'm suggesting we change our collective attitude. Don't vote for these policies and the numbskulls who advocate them. Currently that would mean voting against the prevailing culture. But hey, you're a rebel; you can do it. But not voting isn't enough. You also have to vote. You got to find your local candidates who support sane policies and support them.

Currently - you mean like the culture of fear we have had for the last 100+ years?

Do you think I dont vote? what gave you that idea?

I just dont believe its capable of doing a damn thing but for the one in a billion chance that it might I trot myself out and go through the motions regardless of my personal lack of faith in the system and I encourage everyone to do the same - I actually did a public service message for one of the Indi TV stations that does a Music video show last election - kinda a rock the vote type thing

[trish]

Sorry you didn't like the dog & pony show, teach...but your lesson is getting so fucking boring. The police are out of control, not in control. We live in a dysfunctional democratic-republic, not a police state. Gun manufacturers profit from weapons intensive public policies, so of course they'll support and lobby for those policies; but politicians still have to be elected to office on a regular basis. The electorate just happens to love policies that you and I both know will lead to police misconduct. But that one feature alone doesn't make it a police state. And banks...well banks will profit regardless.

[TempestTS]

Sorry you didn't like the dog & pony show, teach...but your lesson is getting so fucking boring. The police are out of control, not in control. We live in a dysfunctional democratic-republic, not a police state. Gun manufacturers profit from weapons intensive public policies, so of course they'll support and lobby for those policies; but politicians still have to be elected to office on a regular basis. The electorate just happens to love policies that you and I both know will lead to police misconduct. But that one feature alone doesn't make it a police state. And banks...well banks will profit regardless.

And yet apparently you have learned nothing

In order for something to be continually out of control those in control must allow it - and that entity isn't the public.

The public does not in any way shape or form "Love the Polices" that lead to police misconduct - they FEAR the alternative...

And that my dear is a Huge difference.

[my my my!]

I keep saying , that the USA is Indeed in the beginning stages of becoming a police state. Will it ever become a full fledged true to wikipedia definition of Police State, Police State? Perhaps.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/20/1038300/-The-United-States-of-America-is-a-Police-State#

is it Nazi era Germany already? fuck no, even suggesting that is truly ludicrous.

can the rise of police brutality , erosion of liberties, objectionable foreign and domestic policies , and not evaluating, assessing, and adjusting to these lead to a police state? Yes.

[TempestTS]

I keep saying , that the USA is Indeed in the beginning stages of becoming a police state. Will it ever become a full fledged true to wikipedia definition of Police State, Police State? Perhaps.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/20/1038300/-The-United-States-of-America-is-a-Police-State#

is it Nazi era Germany already? fuck no, even suggesting that is truly ludicrous.

can the rise of police brutality , erosion of liberties, objectionable foreign and domestic policies , and not evaluating, assessing, and adjusting to these lead to a police state? Yes.

Thanks for the link - great read

[TempestTS]

another little tidd bit - the number of Americans killed by cops now out numbers the number of American soldiers killed during the Iraq War during virtually the same time span

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/americans-killed-cops-outnumber-americans-killed-iraq-war/

[trish]

Throughout this thread I often thought, “What the fuck! This disagreement simply hinges on the definition of “police state. Why don’t I just agree to the non-standard use which you’re applying and get on with a discussion of the root causes of increased police misconduct in the U.S.?”

The problem is that ultimately the disagreement is not semantic. I think the root causes lie with the electorate and American culture. I see the profiteering of banks and arms manufacturers as a synergistic, not as primary or first causes. Tempest, I believe, portrays the gun manufacturers and the bankers not only as primary causative agents of police misconduct, but as deliberately acting via that misconduct to control our political beliefs.

To me that’s just loony. But if that were the only bone of contention, I could leave the argument as is and agree to disagree. But the one facet of Tempest’s point of view that I cannot abide is her contention that the only solution to the current spate of misconduct is to go outside the law. She claims this cannot be fixed with ink on paper. We need to (if I read her correctly) sidestep democratic procedure (perhaps peacefully through general strikes as in Iceland, or perhaps otherwise) and force the government to “resign.” Only then can we set up a government that writes the banks out of power and only then can we reboot the nation.

To me this unconstitutional action sounds not only unnecessary, but like the utmost folly. Unnecessary because it can be fixed with appropriate legislation and oversight. Folly, because of all the people it will destroy who depend on government services, safety nets and jobs. Folly because it’ll never happen. Folly because should it happen that we shut the government and force all our representatives to resign, it would likely result in an actual police state. It’s like firing the government before we get a chance to elect a Hitler to office...like there won’t be any powers (say within our own military) willing to sweep in to fill the vacuum.

We could continue this thread by discussing what are the real root causes of police misconduct, the roots causes of crime and why we think we need so many enforcement agencies and police. But we’re not going to go there because we’ll always come back to the fantasy that our minds are being controlled and manipulated by mass media who in turn are bought by Wall Street bankers and the only way to defeat those mind controlling Wall Street bankers is to overturn the Government.

And so we find ourselves at an impasse.

[TempestTS]

Throughout this thread I often thought, “What the fuck! This disagreement simply hinges on the definition of “police state. Why don’t I just agree to the non-standard use which you’re applying and get on with a discussion of the root causes of increased police misconduct in the U.S.?”

The problem is that ultimately the disagreement is not semantic. I think the root causes lie with the electorate and American culture. I see the profiteering of banks and arms manufacturers as a synergistic, not as primary or first causes. Tempest, I believe, portrays the gun manufacturers and the bankers not only as primary causative agents of police misconduct, but as deliberately acting via that misconduct to control our political beliefs.

To me that’s just loony. But if that were the only bone of contention, I could leave the argument as is and agree to disagree. But the one facet of Tempest’s point of view that I cannot abide is her contention that the only solution to the current spate of misconduct is to go outside the law. She claims this cannot be fixed with ink on paper. We need to (if I read her correctly) sidestep democratic procedure (perhaps peacefully through general strikes as in Iceland, or perhaps otherwise) and force the government to “resign.” Only then can we set up a government that writes the banks out of power and only then can we reboot the nation.

To me this unconstitutional action sounds not only unnecessary, but like the utmost folly. Unnecessary because it can be fixed with appropriate legislation and oversight. Folly, because of all the people it will destroy who depend on government services, safety nets and jobs. Folly because it’ll never happen. Folly because should it happen that we shut the government and force all our representatives to resign, it would likely result in an actual police state. It’s like firing the government before we get a chance to elect a Hitler to office...like there won’t be any powers (say within our own military) willing to sweep in to fill the vacuum.

We could continue this thread by discussing what are the real root causes of police misconduct, the roots causes of crime and why we think we need so many enforcement agencies and police. But we’re not going to go there because we’ll always come back to the fantasy that our minds are being controlled and manipulated by mass media who in turn are bought by Wall Street bankers and the only way to defeat those mind controlling Wall Street bankers is to overturn the Government.

And so we find ourselves at an impasse.

"To me this unconstitutional action sounds not only unnecessary, but like the utmost folly."

You DO realize that the action your describing is exactly how this country was founded...

Irony... do you taste it?

[TempestTS]

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Trooper-pleads-guilty-to-stealing-from-crash-5626425.php



BRIDGEPORT -- A state trooper, caught on his own dashboard camera stealing a dying motorcyclist's cash and gold crucifix, is facing up to a year and a half in prison.
Aaron "AJ" Huntsman (http://www.ctpost.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=local&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Aaron+%22AJ%22+Huntsman%22), a 19-year veteran of the State Police (http://www.ctpost.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=local&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22State+Police%22), pleaded guilty Wednesday afternoon under the Alford Doctrine to third-degree larceny and tampering with evidence -- both felonies.
Although Huntsman, 45, could have faced up to 10 years in prison on the two charges, Superior Court (http://www.ctpost.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=local&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Superior+Court%22) Judge Robert Devlin (http://www.ctpost.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=local&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Robert+Devlin%22) said he would impose a term in prison of 16 months, followed by five years of probation.
Huntsman's lawyer, Ryan McGuigan (http://www.ctpost.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=local&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Ryan+McGuigan%22), does have the right to argue for a lesser term when Huntsman is sentenced Oct. 3.


Huntsman walked out of the courtroom with a big smile on his face following the hearing. He declined comment.




---
Here's the kicker TWO felonies - guilty - and only gets 16 months PLUS he gets to plead for a lesser penalty during sentencing -


No wonder he's smiling - he's getting a better deal than anyone else could possibly hope for.
The system Does NOT correct itself - this is barely a slap on the wrist and the ONLY reason its happening at all is because he's caught completely on video... otherwise it would never have even been investigated - civilians who question cops actions are completely ignored unless there is so much evidence that it gains public outcry then they do their little judicial dance like this one and make it quietly go away for with as minor of a sentence as possible

[TempestTS]

Meanwhile in America

[TempestTS]

On July 16th 2011 ‪#‎SFPD‬ (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/sfpd?source=feed_text&story_id=284362755079592) gave chase in an alleged $2 fare evasion which ended in the shooting death of Kenneth Harding Jr. Police claim that Kenny shot himself in the neck, from behind his back while running full speed and then threw the gun over a fence or possibly onto a roof where it was never located. The officer involved in the shooting, Richard Hastings was never charged. Two years later Hastings was arrested for child molestation. - from Bay Area Intifada (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bay-Area-Intifada/338952599540714)
"The officers did not provide any medical treatment or care to Harding and instead left him writhing on the ground with blood gushing out of his neck," the lawsuit alleges.

Read about Lawsuit: http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/mother-sues-city-over-kenneth-hardings-death/Content?oid=2202036
Read About Child Molester Cop: http://sfbayview.com/2013/09/cop-who-murdered-kenneth-harding-arrested-for-molesting-teenage-boy/

[the_unnatural]

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-02-cpr-suit_x.htm

Police chief sued for denying gay man CPRCHARLESTON, W. Va. (AP) — A small-town police chief was accused in a federal lawsuit Thursday of stopping a would-be rescuer from performing CPR on a gay heart attack victim because he assumed the ailing man had HIV and posed a health risk.
http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/03/02/in-green-1.jpg http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif Claude Green's mother, Helen, is comforted by daughter Anita Tickle during an American Civil Liberties Union press conference in Charleston, W. Va. http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif By Jeff Gentner, AP Claude Green, 43, died June 21 after being stricken yards from City Hall in Welch, a community of about 2,400.
The American Civil Liberties Union sued on behalf of his mother.
Police Chief Bobby Bowman called the allegations "a boldface lie." He said that he called an ambulance and that Green was taken to the hospital in "no more than nine minutes."
"No one refused him CPR as his sister and mom are saying. They can do what they want, but if they're saying I refused him CPR, that is no way true," Bowman said.
http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/03/02/in-green.jpghttp://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear1x5.gifAPGreenhttp://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear1x5.gif The lawsuit accuses Bowman of pulling off Green's friend Billy Snead as Snead was performing chest compressions on the man. Snead was a passenger in Green's pickup when Green collapsed; Snead had managed to pull over the vehicle.
Snead said in an interview that he didn't realize at first it was Bowman giving the order and continued working on his friend. Bowman repeated his command to get away, saying that Green was HIV positive, then grabbed Snead by the shoulders and told him to sit on the curb, Snead said.
"He was a police officer so I got out the way. I assumed he would help. I didn't want to be a hindrance," Snead said. "He also told the ambulance drivers that he was HIV positive and to be careful."
Green was pronounced dead at the hospital after about 30 minutes of attempts to revive him.
Rose Saxe, a lawyer with the ACLU's AIDS Project, said Bowman's alleged actions contributed to Green's death and violated the Americans with Disabilities Act, equal protection laws and due process rights.
Saxe said Green's death was "tragically senseless" because he did not have the AIDS virus, but added that he should have received lifesaving care even if he was HIV-positive.
"He was simply a gay man in Welch, West Virginia. And because of that we can only assume that Chief Bowman assumed he had HIV and it was unsafe to even touch him," Saxe said.
When asked if he knew if Green was gay, Bowman would not answer and referred questions to McDowell County Assistant Prosecuting Attorney Danny Barie, who also represents the City of Welch.
Barie said Thursday he had received a copy of the complaint but could not comment because he had not reviewed it or discussed it with Bowman.
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


http://i.usatoday.net/_common/_images/black.gif

[TempestTS]

http://ktla.com/2014/07/17/chp-beating-caught-on-video-civil-rights-lawsuit-filed-by-family-of-marlene-pinnock/

CHP Beating Caught on Video: Civil Rights Lawsuit Filed by Marlene Pinnock






A woman seen on cellphone video being repeatedly punched by a CHP officer on the side of a Los Angeles freeway has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit over the beating, her lawyer announced Thursday.
http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/beating.jpg?w=300&h=168 (http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/beating.jpg)
Video shot July 1, 2014, by a motorist showed a CHP officer throw a woman to the ground, straddle her body and repeatedly punch her. (Credit: David Diaz)

Marlene Pinnock, a 51-year-old homeless woman, was detained July 1 on the side of the 10 Freeway near La Brea Avenue in a violent arrest caught on cellphone camera by a passing motorist. Video of the incident quickly went viral.
CHP officers were responding to a report of a woman walking into lanes on the freeway at the time of the incident, authorities have said.
The lawsuit, filed Thursday, alleges civil rights violations and use of excessive force on the part of the California Highway Patrol officer, who has not been identified.
In the video, the officer could be seen grabbing Pinnock from behind, throwing her to the ground, straddling her and then repeatedly punching her in the face and upper body.
Pinnock alleges in the lawsuit that she “feared for her life and that the viciousness in which she was beaten could have resulted in her death.”
http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/marlene-pinnock.jpeg?w=300&h=168 (http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/marlene-pinnock.jpeg)
Marlene Pinnock is seen in a 2009 family photo that was provided by her attorney.

The lawsuit also alleges that CHP misused a felony search warrant to obtain a “statement” from Pinnock when the agency subpoenaed her medical records from Los Angeles County+USC Medical Center. A hospital spokeswoman on Thursday morning confirmed the records had been turned over to CHP.

[TempestTS]

And people still dont believe we are becoming a police state

read the whole thing at http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/you-dont-need-to-be-a-terrorist-to-get-on-no-fly-list-us-manual-says/

You don’t need to be a terrorist to get on no-fly list, US manual says

Guidelines say "concrete facts" are "not necessary" for terrorism watchlisting.


Watchlisting Guidance memo (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/07/23/march-2013-watchlisting-guidance/)
Federal agencies have nominated more than 1.5 million names (https://news.yahoo.com/us-terrorist-database-growing-rapid-rate-223303875.html) to terrorist watchlists over the past five years alone, yet being a terrorist isn't a condition of getting on a roster that is virtually impossible to be removed from, according to a leaked US "Watchlisting Guidance" manual.
The 166-page document (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/?p=2936), marked as "sensitive security information" and published by The Intercept, comes amid increasing skepticism over how people are placed on or get off of US terrorism databases like the no-fly list that bars flying to and within the United States.
Further Reading

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/7497500748_5f37df32aa_z-300x150.jpg (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/no-fly-list-removal-process-unconstitutional-judge-rules/)No-fly list removal process unconstitutional, judge rules (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/no-fly-list-removal-process-unconstitutional-judge-rules/)

Judge says there's no "meaningful mechanism" to dispute placement on watch list.

Attorney General Eric Holder, for example, had claimed last year that national security would be imperiled if the public knew that a Stanford University graduate student was placed on the no-fly list because an FBI agent checked the wrong box on a nomination form (http://www.wired.com/2014/02/no-fly-coverup/). And just last month, a federal judge ruled that the government's method for allowing the public to challenge placement on the no-fly list was "wholly ineffective (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/no-fly-list-removal-process-unconstitutional-judge-rules/)" and unconstitutional. The leaked manual says there are a dozen-plus US agencies that have nominating power for the several watchlists the government maintains. But the guidance given to the agencies is vague and confusing, and it says that "concrete facts" about whether somebody is a danger "are not necessary." All nominations to the National Counterterrorism Center are considered "valid" unless that agency has evidence to the contrary. Of the nearly 470,000 nominations last year, the agency rejected 4,915 (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/terrorist-database-continues-grow-rapid-rate).
The manual makes clear that "reasonable suspicion" for placement is necessary. But what that means is anybody's guess. The manual says:
To meet the REASONABLE SUSPICION standard, the NOMINATOR, based on the totality of the circumstances, must rely upon articulable intelligence or information which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrants a determination that an individual is known or suspected to be or has been knowingly engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to TERRORISM and/or TERRORIST ACTIVITIES.
From The document—which urges officials to take into account what somebody says on social media like Twitter and Facebook

[TempestTS]

More on this



http://ktla.com/2014/07/17/chp-beating-caught-on-video-civil-rights-lawsuit-filed-by-family-of-marlene-pinnock/

CHP Beating Caught on Video: Civil Rights Lawsuit Filed by Marlene Pinnock


A woman seen on cellphone video being repeatedly punched by a CHP officer on the side of a Los Angeles freeway has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit over the beating, her lawyer announced Thursday.
http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/beating.jpg?w=300&h=168 (http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/beating.jpg)
Video shot July 1, 2014, by a motorist showed a CHP officer throw a woman to the ground, straddle her body and repeatedly punch her. (Credit: David Diaz)

Note 3 WEEKS later they still wont release the name of the officer involved - if your arrested they release your name to the media immediately -

Double standard Absolutely!
Police State - Possibly - at very least there is an entire department who seems to be above the law and obviously the Checks and Balances system isnt working out as well as some people think...

----From the Free Thought Project

Marlene Pinnock was savagely beaten earlier this month by a California Highway Patrolman. Blow after blow the woman’s head was seen bouncing off the concrete in the horrific video captured by bystander David Diaz.
The CHP claims their officer was simply trying to stop Pinnock from walking into traffic. Well, the officer was definitely successful at his task.


Now three weeks later, the officer’s name has still not been released, no police report has been released, and all the CHP Commissioner has said is that they are investigating the incident.
Attorney’s for Pinnock are seeking civil damages as well as calling for the FBI to investigate and seek attempted murder charges against the officer.
While the CHP is seemingly spinning their wheels, activist Rickey Munday has launched his own “investigation.”
Mr. Munday just so happened to run into 3 CHP officers at a local restaurant yesterday and began to ask them questions about the beating.
“What is your speak on one of your co-workers beating up a woman on the side of the freeway the other day?” he asks. “Is that what y’all do for a living? Beat up women on the side of the freeway?”
The officers obviously chose to assert their 5th amendment right to rem

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/chp-cops-choose-remain-silent-asked-co-worker-beat-lady-highway/#xJteb575BiPgJUlA.99

[TempestTS]

Note the Police Chief's response was that its a simple case of mistaken identity and there was nothing wrong done- WTF - they should face charges just like anyone else- it was an assault on an innocent bystander.

I smell Another Lawsuit due to overzealous violent police response and a department all too willing to cover up that the tax payers will soon have to foot the bill on.




Cops Beat This Father of Three to the Point of Hospitalization. ‘Oh Sorry Wrong Guy’


“All three of them started beating me on the head, it was unbelievable, I couldn’t believe it was happening to me.”

The Free Thought Project (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/) Mike Sawyer July 25, 2014 http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/roger-carlos.jpg (http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/roger-carlos.jpg) Roger Carlos was taking pictures of a building in the 10600 block of Westover Hills Boulevard in San Antonio, TX, when his life changed forever.
Carlos was photographing a building of what was soon to be home to his wife’s medical practice when all of the sudden he was ransacked by an undercover drug task force officer and two SAPD SWAT members.
The officers were looking for Josue Gonzalez, who fled from police after they tried to arrest him for possessing a controlled substance.

http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1406066845000-Josue-Rodriguez-SID-966766.jpg (http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1406066845000-Josue-Rodriguez-SID-966766.jpg)
Gonzalez had ditched his car in the parking lot of a restaurant that happened to be a few hundred feet from where this father of three was excitedly taking pictures of his wife’s new venture.
Officers approached Carlos and before he could comply with their demands, they began to pummel him, striking him over 50 times.
“All three of them started beating me on the head,” said Carlos, ”It was unbelievable. I couldn’t believe it was happening to me.”
Bleeding and in handcuffs he wasn’t released until a fourth officer approached and said that the suspect was in custody nearby.
Carlos meanwhile, was hospitalized after the beating. He was treated for a large gash above his eye and a broken tooth.
Swelling of his head was so severe, doctors performed a CT scan of Carlos’ head as well.

http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1406238038003-Ronnie-s-phone-pics-110.jpg (http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1406238038003-Ronnie-s-phone-pics-110.jpg)

“I could understand taking somebody down hard. I can understand the need for that and securing them, but that’s not what happened. I got on the ground, I was no threat to anybody, I was fully compliant,” said Carlos, who has no criminal history.
The three officers who beat him, claim that Carlos had his hands underneath his body during the beating.
When KENS 5 news interviewed SAPD police chief William McManus (http://www.kens5.com/story/news/investigations/i-team/2014/07/24/sapd-investigation-man-beaten-west-san-antonio/13014559/), he stated that “Clearly it was a case of mistaken identity. From the report that I’ve read, from the photo that I saw and from your description, I’ve not seen anything at this point that would indicate to me that anything out of order happened.”
Just to recap, the chief of police thinks that an innocent man being beaten to the point of hospitalization by incompetent police officers mistaking him for another man, indicates that nothing “out of order happened.”
And this is the scenario that so many American citizens find themselves in today; an unapologetic brutal gang of uniformed thugs operating with almost zero accountability, laying waste to those who they’ve sworn to protect.
Carlos has filed a complaint against these officers with the FBI. We won’t be holding our breathe for the results of that investigation.
One thing is for certain, if any civil suit is brought forth, the monetary consequences from the negligent behavior of these cops will passed on to the tax-payer.

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cops-beat-father-point-hospitalization-oh-wrong-guy/#dWccxOKqRxLglwp2.99

[the_unnatural]

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/pjxlrn/highway-robbing-highway-patrolmen

[TempestTS]

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/pjxlrn/highway-robbing-highway-patrolmen

Had this happen to me ages ago - except it was musical gear - they said it was stolen despite my having a receipt of sale and told me that if I didnt want to be charged and go to jail to await court I had to let them take it - 1994 - true story and yeah I didnt exactly want to spend even a single night in jail for a couple hundred bucks of gear and which it would have cost me 10x more to hire a lawyer to defend me over.

We believe you are Guilty until you can prove otherwise was what I was told point blank to my face which gave them the right to take my equipment.

Turns out later I found out that the 19 yo kid who made the accusation in the first place had a police sergeant for a father - but Im sure that didnt play into it at all

[my my my!]

this is the scenario that so many American citizens find themselves in today; an unapologetic brutal gang of uniformed thugs operating with almost zero accountability

Exactly a SYMPTOM of a Police State.

People here seem to think 1000's of documented incidents are simply "isolated" incidents.

[TempestTS]

17-Year-old Girl Shot and Family Pet Killed After SWAT Raid on Wrong Home


A mother and daughter are suing the Orange County Sheriff’s Office after a negligent SWAT raid on their home left the daughter full of bullet holes and their family dog dead.

The Free Thought Project (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/) Matt Agorist July 26, 2014 http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bullet-holes.jpg (http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bullet-holes.jpg)Bullet holes in the legs of the 17-year-old

The mother and daughter, who are choosing to remain anonymous, are the latest victims to come forward in the state’s immoral war on drugs.
The incident happened back in 2010, when an Orange County Sheriff’s Office SWAT team raided the home looking for a family member who did not even live there.
“I got up and went towards the door and literally once I went towards the door, boom!” the daughter said.”I was 17. I was 5 feet 2 inches and 100 pounds wet,” she said. “And they came in shooting.”
The overzealous SWAT team came in guns drawn and firing. The family’s boxer, startled at the noise, ran into the room and was gunned down by these violent storm troopers.
http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/dog.jpg (http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/dog.jpg)
“The dog was startled and ran to the closet, to the room, and when he ran to the room is when they shot him,” she said.
Of course the police report stated that the dog “aggressively came toward them when they entered the house.”
According to WFTV News, (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/family-sues-orange-county-sheriffs-office-over-vio/ngk2d/?__federated=1)

The unidentified woman said she was also injured by bullets the shooting. Photos show wounds to her leg and apparent bullet holes in the floor and walls of the home.
The Sheriff’s Office search warrant was issued in connection with a wanted man believed to be a drug dealer.
“I said, ‘Chris hasn’t lived here in weeks so if you’ve been surveillancing my house, why are you here?” the woman said.
Deputies found ammunition, but no weapons in the home. Cannabis seeds and drug paraphernalia was found in a room the suspect had lived in, the report states. He was later arrested, but court records show the charges were eventually dropped.
This is yet another tragic example of the horrid consequences realized from trying to tell people what they can and can’t put into their bodies. It is high time we demand PEACE be brought to the WAR on drugs.

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/17-year-old-girl-shot-family-pet-killed-swat-raid-wrong-home/#yELEOcYyFLrjTWXU.99

[the_unnatural]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/family-slain-tosh-0-production-assistant-sue-sheriff-department-article-1.1773070

Family of slain ‘Tosh.0’ production assistant to sue L.A. sheriff’s department

John Winkler, 30, was shot to death after sheriff’s deputies mistook him for a man who had been holding him and several others hostage at a West Hollywood apartment complex earlier this month.

BY Philip Caulfield (http://www.nydailynews.com/authors?author=Philip%20Caulfield)
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Tuesday, April 29, 2014, 3:08 PM




http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1773069.1398798013%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/tosh30n-1-web.jpg Facebook John Winkler, a 30-year-old production assistant on the Comedy Central show 'Tosh.0,' was reportedly gunned down by Los Angeles sheriff's deputies who mistook him for a hostage taker.
The family of a "Tosh.0" production assistant who was shot and killed by L.A. County Sheriff's deputies after being mistaken for a stabbing suspect filed a claim against the department for $25 million.
John Winkler's family announced the claim, which is a precursor to a lawsuit, at a news conference Tuesday in the Seattle area, where the young Hollywood hopeful was raised.
"John Winkler was a hero who was a hostage and he saved his friend," Sim Osborn, the family's lawyer, told reporters. "We intend to uncover the truth."
Winkler, 30, was trying to escape alleged attacker Alexander McDonald when he was gunned down outside at his West Hollywood apartment complex on April 7.
Los Angeles sheriff's officials admitted deputies mistook Winkler for the attacker when they opened fire on him and another man as they fled McDonald's apartment at around 9:30 p.m.
Winkler was struck in the chest and died later at a local hospital.
Deputies later arrested McDonald after finding him fighting with another man he'd held hostage at knifepoint.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1773067.1398798011%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/tosh30n-3-web.jpg Facebook Alexander McDonald, 27, allegedly took the aspiring producer and two other men hostage at knifepoint.
McDonald, 27, has since been charged with murder, torture and attempted murder.
Winkler had moved to California from Washington State six months before the tragic shooting to pursue a career as a film and TV producer, his family said.
He and McDonald lived in the same apartment complex and were friends with the same circle of neighbors, Osborn said.
"Our family wants to find out the truth of what happened that night and want those officers to be held accountable for what they've done," Winkler's mother, Lisa Ostergren, said in a statement.
"It never should have happened," she said, fighting back tears. "Words really can't express how devastated we really are."
When deputies arrived at the Palm Ave. apartment complex, they were given a photo of McDonald and told he was wearing a black shirt.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1773068.1398798012%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/tosh30n-2-web.jpg KTLA The deadly incident played out at an apartment complex on Palm Ave. in West Hollywood on April 7.
Police said they announced themselves outside McDonald's apartment before the door suddenly opened and Winkler came rushing out with a man who was bleeding from the neck.
The sheriff's department said Winkler was wearing a black shirt and appeared to be lunging at the wounded man when deputies opened fire.
The other man was struck in the leg and survived.
"We have many questions for the LASD, including how they could have confused McDonald for John — two very different looking men — when witnesses had given them a photo just moments earlier," Osborn said in a statement.
The sheriff's department has launched an internal investigation into the shooting.
On Thursday, several comedians, including Daniel Tosh, were planning to hold a benefit in Winkler's honor at the Hollywood Improv.
Proceeds from the show, Laughing for Winkler, will benefit the Boys and Girls Club of America.

[the_unnatural]

In Virginia, the Death Penalty for Gambling

Published May 01, 2006NONE


Facebook (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05/01/in-virginia-death-penalty-for-gambling/#)4 Twitter (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05/01/in-virginia-death-penalty-for-gambling/#)1 livefyre (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05/01/in-virginia-death-penalty-for-gambling/#)0
About a month ago, I wrote a column (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188048,00.html) about efforts in Congress to ban Internet gambling. There are lots of specific problems about those bills. But the broader issue is troubling, too: Why does our government insist on policing our personal lives for bad habits?
Because there is almost never a complaining victim in vice crimes, law enforcement offers must go to extraordinary lengths to investigate and prosecute these crimes. This leads to all sorts of other problems, including invasions of privacy, entrapment, and police corruption (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/15/AR2006021502398.html).
The sad case of Salvatore Culosi provides a recent, vivid illustration of the folly of vice laws. Culosi (as irony would have it, he was named after a police officer) was a 37-year old optometrist in the Washington, D.C. suburb of Fairfax, Virginia. According to friends, Culosi was a wealthy, self-made man. He was easygoing and friendly, a guy who enjoyed his success.
He was also a small-time gambler. Culosi and his friends regularly met at bars in the area to watch sports, and frequently wagered on the outcomes of games. The wagers weren't insignificant -- $50, $100, sometimes more on a given afternoon. But the small circle of friends also had the means to back up their wagers. No one was betting the mortgage, here.
As one friend of Culosi's told me, "To Sal, betting a few bills on the Redskins was a stress reliever, done among friends...none of us single, successful professionals ever thought that betting $50 bucks or so on the Virginia-Virginia Tech football game was a crime worthy of investigation."
Apparently, it was. Fairfax police detective David J. Baucom met Culosi in a bar one evening last October, befriended him, and was soon making wagers himself. According to those close to Culosi I've spoken with, it wasn't long before Baucom began upping the ante, encouraging Culosi to wager larger sums than what the friends were used to. Baucom would later report in an affidavit that he'd wagered close to $30,000 with Culosi over a three-month period, and had lost nearly $6,000.
Baucom eventually encouraged Culosi to wager at least $2,000 in a single day, the lower threshold under which Culosi could be charged under state law (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Virginia) with "conducting an illegal gambling operation." On January 24 of this year, Detective Baucom assembled the Fairfax County SWAT team, and marched off to Culosi's home to arrest him.
According to press accounts, police affidavits, and the resulting investigation by the Fairfax prosecutor's office, Baucom called Culosi that evening, and told him he'd be by to collect his winnings. With the SWAT team at the ready just behind him, Baucom waited outside Culosi's home in an SUV. As Culosi emerged from the doorway, clad only in a t-shirt and jeans, SWAT officer Deval Bullock's finger apparently slipped to the trigger of his Heckler & Koch MP5 semiautomatic weapon, already aimed at the unarmed Culosi.
The gun fired, releasing a bullet that entered Culosi's side, then ripped through his chest and struck his heart, killing him instantly.
It only got worse from there. This month, Culosi's parents (http://www.justiceforsal.com/2006/04/3-months-still-no-justice-for-sal.html) called a press conference to release details of their own investigation into their son's shooting. They found that police waited more than five hours to inform them of their son's death, denying the Roman Catholic family the opportunity to administer Culosi the sacrament of Last Rites.
Hospital records show that a staff social worker was prepared to contact the Culosi's when their son arrived at the hospital, but were barred from doing so by Fairfax police. In fact, the Culosis weren't permitted to see their son's body until two days later, when it was released to a funeral home.
Over the next few months, as Culosi's death made news and raised outrage in the Washington, D.C. area, Detective Baucom stubbornly continued his investigation, to the point of calling friends and acquaintances he'd gathered from the dead man's cell phone.
He even called Culosi's grieving brother-in-law, menacingly inquiring,"How much are you into Sal, for?" The brother-in-law would later tell the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/13/AR2006041302046.html) that the call smacked of witness intimidation, given the family's inevitable lawsuit against the city and the police department.
The incident didn't deter the Fairfax police department's anti-gambling crusade, either. As the NCAA tournament was about to tip-off, the police department issued a poorly-timed, insensitively-worded press release (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/Reports%202006/031706ocnmarchmadness.htm) declaring, "Illegal Gambling Not Worth the Risk."
Given that the Culosi case was over the media at the time, the release carried the troubling, if unintended, implication that said "risk" could well mean a fatal visit from the Fairfax SWAT team. Meanwhile, the state of Virginia continued to spend the $20 million it allocates each year toward marketing and promoting the state's lottery.
Last month, Fairfax County prosecutor Robert Horan announced that he would not press charges against the officer who shot and killed Culosi. That's no surprise. In his 39 years as a prosecutor, Horan hasn't brought a single charge against a police officer. Not only that, but both Horan and the Fairfax County police department have yet to mention the officer's name in public. We only know Officer Bullock's identity due to the perseverance of a Washington Post reporter.
I'm not a fan of criminal negligence laws, but if we're going to have them, certainly our law enforcement officials should be among the first we require to follow them. In this case, Officer Bullock improperly had his finger on the trigger of his weapon, and improperly had his weapon pointed at Culosi. Somehow, he improperly fired, and improperly registered a direct hit. Tests show there was nothing wrong with the gun.
Were any citizen to accidentally and fatally discharge a weapon in the same manner, it's difficult to believe that Mr. Horan wouldn't be quick to file charges, and release the name of the suspect to the public. One wonders why he doesn't hold police officers to a higher standard than average citizen, much less why he holds them to a lower one.
A spokesman for the Fairfax police department originally said that the department serves nearly all of its search warrants with the SWAT team. Local officials have since backed off from that statement. In this case, the SWAT team was wholly inappropriate. And it's hard to believe this is the first time it's been used on a nonviolent suspect. A competent investigator would have discovered that Culosi had no weapons in his home, had no history of violence, and, had he actually talked to Culosi's friends and acquaintances, wasn't the kind of guy who would put up a fight. As Horan himself conceded, "He doesn't look like a kingpin."
I'm sure that Officer Bullock didn't intentionally shoot and kill Salvatore Culosi. Instead, the man's death is the end result of a series of bad policies instituted by state legislators, misplaced priorities on the part of the police department, and a lack of oversight from the prosecutor's office. His wasn't the first needless death stemming from the misguided, overly aggressive approach our government takes to consensual crimes. Sadly, it won't be the last, either.
Whether or not Sal Culosi represents the last time something like this happens in Fairfax County rests with if citizens there demand accountability, transparency, and reform from the officials who serve them.
Radley Balko is a policy analyst for the Cato Institute specializing in "nanny state" and consumer choice issues, including alcohol and tobacco control, drug prohibition, obesity, and civil liberties. Separately, he maintains the The Agitator weblog. (http://www.theagitator.com/) The opinions expressed in his column for FOXNews.com are his own and are not to be associated with Cato unless otherwise indicated.

[TempestTS]

Detroit Water Shut Off Protesters met with Military LRAD in the hands of Police

- Dont worry folks - you still have free speech just not in public - and not around the police but this is in no way a police state - your first amendment right is still intact - well kinda - ummm not really


HOLY FUCK - you cant even protest city wide water shutoffs without the police using a military crowd dispersal against a crowd of - oh yeah a little more than a Dozen people...



http://images.dailykos.com/images/95578/large/IMG_1301.JPG?1405932307
Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/21/1315395/-Military-device-used-on-Detroit-protest-against-WaterShutoffs#) July 22, 2014
http://images.dailykos.com/images/95577/small/IMG_1318.JPG?1405931237
Nine persons were arrested at the entrance to Homrich, a demolition contractor working on a $5.6 million deal to perform the water shutoffs (http://michigancitizen.com/demonstrators-from-detroit-and-across-the-nation-protest-water-shutoffs/) on residents. The rally outside the gate started at 6:30am and went for seven hours before arrests were made. Police believed the group would disperse and head to the rally downtown at Hart Plaza. The group however showed their commitment holding the gate after that rally had started. This is the second week of arrests at the entrance and the second time in the last 10 years protesters were arrested in Detroit. Last week 10 persons were arrested and released on bail awaiting trial for disorderly conduct.
http://images.dailykos.com/images/95581/small/IMG_1277.JPG?1405935237
attribution: Stephen Boyle

The first arrested of the group was Baxter Jones, a former Detroit Public Schools teacher (http://michigancitizen.com/former-dps-teacher-confined-to-wheelchair-arrested-protesting-detroit-water-shutoffs/) wrongfully dismissed is in a wheelchair. Baxter had put himself on the front line during last week’s blockade which had 10 arrested as well, but the police chose not to arrest him and dragged his chair out of the way.The group doesn’t appear to be letting up on the pressure. During the protest several televised interviews were shown (http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/clip/10380862/rallies-to-protest-detroit-water-shutoffs-kick-off). One of which was with Valerie who spoke of her household and her neighborhood going through mass shutoffs as Homrich moved through a three block area. She mobilized in the moment, saving her house from being shutoff and opened up a neighborhood water location. In our worst of times community becomes very essential in getting through.
Broadcast video from activist. (http://bambuser.com/v/4788255)
Military Weapon Deployment

http://images.dailykos.com/images/95555/small/LRAD.jpg?1405907331
A LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) was used to disperse a rally at Hart Plaza in downtown Detroit on Friday, July 18, 2014 at 2:43pm. There has been previous use of an LRAD in Detroit on May 1, 2012 when Occupy Detroit gathered on the public sidewalk outside Grand Circus Park after park closing hours of 10pm. The use in 2012 was as a public address. The use in 2014 was to cause distress to those hearing the sound.You can hear the sound emitted in the video footage at 50 minutes into this clip (the final minute of the clip). Those who were on the platform to speak felt vibration throughout their body and some clutched at their chest during the deployment which last about 2 minutes.


The sound dispersed the crowd which had a peaceful assembly with speakers discussing the human right to water, and the hypocrisy of Michigan’s Emergency Manager Law (PA 436 of 2012), which was brought forth after the public voted down the Emergency Manager Law (PA 4) during the November elections. Rally speakers brought the position of Detroit is being ruled by an implanted dictator who is dismantling sections of local government. Those assembled resist the interest of Kevyn Orr, the EM of Detroit, in moving the public water to a privatized service. They also resist privatization of all public services placed in the trust of our local government to provide for the well-being of our citizens. Detroit has seen public lighting turned over to a new authority which has darkened major streets such as Gratiot, Grand River, and Woodward – streets where pedestrian deaths have occurred at night in the past year.


Advance 50 minutes into the video to hear the LRAD deployment
Background On Shutoffs

Volunteers with the Peoples Water Board Coalition have heard from residents of rental properties that were not notified by their landlords of high water bills that resulted in water being turned off. It is inappropriate for people to have water – a human need - removed without notice. Detroit Water & Sewerage Department (DWSD) have contracted Homrich (a demolition company) to perform up to 3,000 shutoffs per week. Addresses are listed with no information about occupants of the locations being shutoff. Elders and families with small children are all treated the same. If the property is on the list it gets shutoff and those affected are told to come to a water payment center to work out arrangements. Thousands of Detroiters have experienced their water being turned off for at least 24 hours. Hundreds have been found that have had no water service for months. Sanitation concerns around the city are increasing.
Several water stations and a number of neighborhood water friends have been setup through the Peoples Water Board Coalition (PWB) and Detroit Water Brigade. The demands of the PWB are to enable the Water Affordability Program proposed in 2006 by Michigan Welfare Rights Organization (MWRO). DWSD has opened up DRWAP (Detroit Residential Water Affordability Program) in the last month as a response after having shutoff thousands. One of the stipulations of DRWAP is 1/3 of outstanding balance must be provided to enter into the program, that is not present in MWRO’s WAP.

If the city can demonstrate the ability to bring residential accounts current it will push the value behind privatization higher.

There are many complex angles to this story that deserve further discussion – the shutoffs themselves are a symptom of a greater problem that is being avoided by the press. Emergency Manager Law has placed the city under a State of Michigan appointed “dictator” able to dissect City of Detroit operations, dissolve union contracts, and cram changes in public services upon the people.The suburbs are opposed to the cram-down being pushed by the State of Michigan as well. Rate hikes have been coming each year – this year 4.3% for the suburbs and 8.7% for Detroit residents. Changes in Detroit are being felt by its neighbors. More than half of Michigan’s municipalities controlled by Emergency Manager Law are in Metropolitan Detroit.


Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/military-device-detroit-protest-water-shutoffs/#m3d9JtXHwhFZB04k.99

[TempestTS]

Owner of a private prison corporation holds 10,000 $ a plate fund raiser for the governor - gets 20 million in state funding -

I wonder what its like to own a politician

[timmartin]

Thats because the only thing they have is fear and guns - we have the numbers and that's where the true power lies -

Look at a cop at a protest - every bit of armor the put on - every big APC they drive up in and and every gun and grenade the strap on to themselves is a sign of exactly how terrified they are of the rest of the population - we could throw them all out of power in a heartbeat if we really wanted to.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
Here's a link to a rather lengthy report that confirms your assertion and then some.
http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

[Stavros]

Is this thread about a police state, or the state of the police?

[my my my!]

Is this thread about a police state, or the state of the police?

It's about:

rising , documented police brutality as in previous police states

similarities to previous well known 'police states'

erosion of liberties, be it temporarily or by decree. as in previous police states

people that don't believe any of this is happening. as in previous police states.

[trish]

http://nyti.ms/1o6PPC0

[my my my!]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39248.htm

The Absurd, Bureaucratic Hell That Is the American Police State

By John W. Whitehead

“The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid ‘dens of crime’ that Dickens loved to paint. It is not done even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern.”—C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

July 28, 2014 "ICH" - Whether it’s the working mother arrested for letting her 9-year-old play unsupervised at a playground, the teenager forced to have his genitals photographed by police, the underage burglar sentenced to 23 years for shooting a retired police dog, or the 43-year-old man who died of a heart attack after being put in a chokehold by NYPD officers allegedly over the sale of untaxed cigarettes, the theater of the absurd that passes for life in the American police state grows more tragic and incomprehensible by the day.

Debra Harrell, a 46-year-old South Carolina working mother, was arrested, charged with abandonment and had her child placed in state custody after allowing the 9-year-old to spend unsupervised time at a neighborhood playground while the mom worked a shift at McDonald’s. Mind you, the child asked to play outside, was given a cell phone in case she needed to reach someone, and the park—a stone’s throw from the mom’s place of work—was overrun with kids enjoying its swings, splash pad, and shade.

A Connecticut mother was charged with leaving her 11-year-old daughter in the car unsupervised while she ran inside a store—despite the fact that the child asked to stay in the car and was not overheated or in distress. A few states away, a New Jersey man was arrested and charged with endangering the welfare of his children after leaving them in a car parked in a police station parking lot, windows rolled down, while he ran inside to pay a ticket.

A Virginia teenager was charged with violating the state’s sexting law after exchanging sexually provocative videos with his girlfriend. Instead of insisting that the matter be dealt with as a matter of parental concern, police charged the boy with manufacturing and distributing child pornography and issued a search warrant to “medically induce an erection” in the 17-year-old boy in order to photograph his erect penis and compare it to the images sent in the sexting exchange. The police had already taken an initial photograph of the boy’s penis against his will, upon his arrest.

In Georgia, a toddler had his face severely burned when a flash bang grenade, launched by a SWAT team during the course of a no-knock warrant, landed in his portable crib, detonating on his pillow. Also in Georgia, a police officer shot and killed a 17-year-old boy who answered the door, reportedly with a Nintendo Wii controller in his hands. The cop claimed the teenager pointed a gun at her, thereby justifying the use of deadly force. Then there was the incident wherein a police officer, responding to a complaint that some children were “chopping off tree limbs” creating “tripping hazards,” pulled a gun on a group of 11-year-old boys who were playing in a wooded area, attempting to build a tree fort.

While the growing phenomenon of cops shooting family pets only adds to the insanity (it is estimated that a family pet is killed by law enforcement every 98 minutes in America), it’s worse for those who dare to shoot a police dog. Ivins Rosier was 16 when he broke into the home of a Florida highway patrol officer and shot (although he didn’t kill) the man’s retired police dog. For his crime, the teenager was sentenced to 23 years in prison, all the while police officers who shoot family pets are rarely reprimanded.

Meanwhile if you’re one of those hoping to live off the grid, independent of city resources, you might want to think again. Florida resident Robin Speronis was threatened with eviction for living without utilities. Speronis was accused of violating the International Property Maintenance Code by relying on rain water instead of the city water system and solar panels instead of the electric grid.

Now we can shrug these incidents off as isolated injustices happening to “other” people. We can rationalize them away by suggesting that these people “must” have done something to warrant such treatment. Or we can acknowledge that this slide into totalitarianism—helped along by overcriminalization, government surveillance, militarized police, neighbors turning in neighbors, privatized prisons, and forced labor camps, to name just a few similarities—is tracking very closely with what we saw happening in Germany in the years leading up to Hitler’s rise to power.

When all is said and done, what these incidents reflect is a society that has become so bureaucratic, so legalistic, so politically correct, so militaristic, so locked down, so self righteous, and so willing to march in lockstep with the corporate-minded police state that any deviations from the norm—especially those that offend the sensibilities of the “government-knows-best” nanny state or challenge the powers that be—become grist for prosecution, persecution and endless tribulations for the poor souls who are caught in the crosshairs.

Then there are the incidents, less colorful perhaps but no less offensive to the sensibilities of any freedom-loving individual, which should arouse outrage among the populace but often slip under the radar of a sleeping nation.

For instance, not only is the NSA spying on and collecting the content of your communications, but it’s also going to extreme lengths to label as “extremists” anyone who attempts to protect their emails from the government’s prying eyes. Adding insult to injury, those same government employees and contractors spying on Americans’ private electronic communications are also ogling their private photos. Recent revelations indicate that NSA employees routinely pass around intercepted nude photos, considered a “fringe benefit” of surveillance positions.

A trove of leaked documents reveals the government’s unmitigated gall in labeling Americans as terrorists for little more than being suspected of committing “any act that is ‘dangerous’ to property and intended to influence government policy through intimidation.” As The Intercept reports: “This combination—a broad definition of what constitutes terrorism and a low threshold for designating someone a terrorist—opens the way to ensnaring innocent people in secret government dragnets.” All the while, the TSA, despite the billions of dollars we spend on the agency annually and the liberties to which its agents subject travelers, has yet to catch a single terrorist.

No less disconcerting are the rash of incidents in which undercover government agents encourage individuals to commit crimes they might not have engaged in otherwise. This “make work” entrapment scheme runs the gamut from terrorism to drugs. In fact, a recent report released by Human Rights Watch reveals that “nearly all of the highest-profile domestic terrorism plots in the United States since 9/11 featured the ‘direct involvement’ of government agents or informants.”

Most outrageous of all are the asset forfeiture laws that empower law enforcement to rake in huge sums of money by confiscating cash, cars, and even homes based on little more than a suspicion of wrongdoing. In this way, Americans who haven’t been charged with a crime, let alone convicted of wrongdoing, are literally being subjected to highway robbery by government agents offering profit-driven, cash-for-freedom deals.

So who or what is to blame for this bureaucratic nightmare delivered by way of the police state? Is it the White House? Is it Congress? Is it the Department of Homeland Security, with its mobster mindset? Is it some shadowy, power-hungry entity operating off a nefarious plan?

Or is it, as Holocaust survivor Hannah Arendt suggests, the sheepish masses who mindlessly march in lockstep with the government’s dictates—expressing no outrage, demanding no reform, and issuing no challenge to the status quo—who are to blame for the prison walls being erected around us? The author of The Origins of Totalitarianism, Arendt warned that “the greatest evil perpetrated is the evil committed by nobodies, that is, by human beings who refuse to be persons.”

This is where democracy falls to ruin, and bureaucracy and tyranny prevail.

As I make clear in my book A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State, we have only ourselves to blame for this bureaucratic hell that has grown up around us. Too many of us willingly, knowingly and deliberately comprise what Arendt refers to as “cogs in the mass-murder machine.”

These cogs are none other than those of us who have turned a blind eye to the government corruption, or shrugged dismissively at the ongoing injustices, or tuned out the mayhem in favor of entertainment distractions. Just as guilty are those who have traded in their freedoms for a phantom promise of security, not to mention those who feed the machine unquestioningly with their tax dollars and partisan politics.

And then there are those who work for the government, federal, state, local or contractor. These government employees—the soldiers, the cops, the technicians, the social workers, etc.—are neither evil nor sadistic. They’re simply minions being paid to do a job, whether that job is to arrest you, spy on you, investigate you, crash through your door, etc. However, we would do well to remember that those who worked at the concentration camps and ferried the victims to the gas chambers were also just “doing their jobs.”

Then again, if we must blame anyone, blame the faceless, nameless, bureaucratic government machine—which having been erected and set into motion is nearly impossible to shut down—for the relentless erosion of our freedoms through a million laws, statutes, and prohibitions.

If there is any glimmer of hope to be found, it will be at the local level, but we cannot wait for things to get completely out of control. If you wait to act until the SWAT team is crashing through your door, until your name is placed on a terror watch list, until you are reported for such outlawed activities as collecting rainwater or letting your children play outside unsupervised, then it will be too late.

Obedience is the precondition to totalitarianism, and the precondition to obedience is fear. Regimes of the past and present understand this. “The very first essential for success,” Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, “is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence.” Is this not what we are seeing now with the SWAT teams and the security checkpoints and the endless wars?

This much I know: we are not faceless numbers. We are not cogs in the machine. We are not slaves. We are people, and free people at that. As the Founders understood, our freedoms do not flow from the government. They were not given to us, to be taken away at the will of the State; they are inherently ours. In the same way, the government’s appointed purpose is not to threaten or undermine our freedoms, but to safeguard them.

Until we can get back to this way of thinking, until we can remind Americans what it really means to be a free American, and learn to stand our ground in the face of threats to those freedoms, and encourage our fellow citizens to stop being cogs in the machine, we will continue as slaves in thrall to the bureaucratic police state.

John W. Whitehead is an attorney and author who has written, debated and practiced widely in the area of constitutional law and human rights. Whitehead's concern for the persecuted and oppressed led him, in 1982, to establish The Rutherford Institute, a nonprofit civil liberties and human rights organization whose international headquarters are located in Charlottesville, Virginia. Whitehead serves as the Institute’s president and spokesperson, in addition to writing a weekly commentary that is posted on The Rutherford Institute’s website (www.rutherford.org)

[trish]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/06/09/las-vegas-shooters-had-expressed-anti-government-views-prepared-for-lengthy-gun-battle/

[the_unnatural]

2.70 yuan per kilogram

[trish]

I don't necessarily agree with all the points discussed in the following articles, but they do point in directions distinct from the course taken by the dominant contributors to this thread.

http://woodgatesview.com/2014/06/02/gun-nuts-vs-gun-nuts/

http://anarchistnews.org/content/left-gun-nuts

[fred41]

just read this today...pertains more locally, but overall...
still pertains and explains.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/bratton-bad-faith-critics-pile-article-1.1883343

[Ben]

Fuck this shit Im sick of it - every day I turn around there is another abuse of power by the jackboot Police State abusing their power to protect and serve themselves...

and dont even get me started about the department of homeland security - the last time we saw someone "protecting" the population in the name of the "Homeland" their uniforms were different colors and they had a heavy German accent.

All power systems want to increase their own power. That's the nature of power. It doesn't matter if it's the state or corporations.
And, too, it's not just themselves that political actors serve. For the most part they serve and protect corporate power. (Both parties serve the ultra rich and corporate power.)
Corporations have launched a pretty effective propaganda campaign over the last 30 years or so that it's the power of the government that's inherently frightening. It's true. Government power is frightening. But we do have some say with respect to government. With corporations, well, we've no say.
And, too, it's in the interests of corporations to demonize government. Because, after all, in theory the people are the government. (Government has a big flaw: they're potentially democratic.) So, corporations demonize government. But government does provide some protection against overwhelming corporate power. When the government recedes -- as has happened over the last 30 years or so -- corporate power becomes more prevalent.
Ya know, you and I have a say on the CEO of America. We've no say on the CEO of Exxon or Microsoft etc., etc., etc.
So a note of caution: be wary of corporate propaganda -- :)

[the_unnatural]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPEXYkffgpw&feature=youtu.be

Second Anal Probe Lawsuit Being Filed Against N.M. Police

Drug dog with expired certification allegedly alerted cops to nonexistent drugs twice.

By Steven Nelson (http://www.usnews.com/topics/author/steven_nelson) Nov. 6, 2013 | 5:48 p.m. EST + More

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A second man is alleging that Hidalgo County, N.M., police violated his rights and escalated a minor traffic stop into an anal-probing nightmare as they searched in vain for drugs.
Timothy Young was stopped on Oct. 13, 2012, for allegedly turning without a signal, KOB-TV first reported (http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3210356.shtml?cat=500#.Uno-YPmshcY) Tuesday evening. A K-9 dog erroneously indicated he had drugs in his vehicle and he was taken to the Gila Regional Medical Center in Silver City, N.M., where doctors performed an x-ray scan and a digital anal probe.
Young went public after a similar case attracted intense national and local coverage this week.
Albuquerque civil rights attorney Shannon Kennedy told U.S. News Wednesday she is filing a lawsuit on Young's behalf.
[EARLIER: Man Seeks Millions After N.M. Police Force Colonoscopy in Drug Search (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/05/man-seeks-millions-after-nm-police-force-colonoscopy-in-drug-search)]
Kennedy is also representing David Eckert, who was stopped on Jan. 2, 2013, by Deming, N.M., police for allegedly rolling through a stop sign. Eckert was also taken to the Gila Regional Medical Center – where he was x-rayed, forcibly given enemas and then given a colonoscopy.
Three Deming policemen and three Hidalgo County officers were allegedly involved in the Eckert case, which may be settled out of court. Named defendants include the six policemen, the medical center, two doctors and a deputy district attorney who secured a warrant authorizing an anal probe.
No drugs were found in the possession of either man.
KOB-TV reports that a K-9 dog named "Leo" incorrectly alerted police to the existence of drugs in each of the men's vehicles. The station reports that Leo's drug-sniffing certification expired in April 2011.
"You can talk to our attorney," a member of the Hidalgo County Sheriff's Office said Wednesday when asked for comment. Attorneys for the office did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
More News:


Senators Say Sugar Subsidies Are No Sweet Deal (http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2013/10/31/trick-or-treat-senators-say-sugar-subsidies-are-no-sweet-deal)
Christie's Broad 2016 Appeal Questioned (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/06/gop-savior-not-so-fast-on-chris-christie-say-dems)
Explosions Rock Chinese Communist HQ (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/06/explosions-rock-chinese-communist-hq-amid-heightened-tensions)


Man Pulled Over for Routine Traffic Stop Given Anal...

BUTT WHY?: Man Pulled Over for Routine Traffic Stop Given Anal Search and Colonoscopy
http://assets.newsinc.com/newsinconebyone.png?t=1389964020

http://content-img.newsinc.com/jpg/1844/25338407/7692395.jpg?t=1389964020




Correction 11/06/13: This article originally said a lawsuit was filed on behalf of Timothy Young. The lawsuit has not yet been filed.
TAGS:crime (http://www.usnews.com/topics/subjects/crime)New Mexico (http://www.usnews.com/topics/locations/new_mexico)

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+ More



http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/b4ef916/2147483647/thumbnail/80x80%3E/quality/85/?url=%2Fcmsmedia%2F23%2F3d921925bf531482acbaa243a3 59f8%2F36485Steven_Nelson.jpg Steven Nelson is a reporter at U.S. News & World Report. You can follow him on Twitter (https://twitter.com/stevennelson10) or reach him at snelson@usnews.com.

[the_unnatural]

Texas state troopers caught on camera probing women's privates aren't isolated incidents: lawyers

Multiple highway patrol officers in Texas have been captured by dash cams doing 'unconstitutional' cavity searches on women's genitals during traffic stops. Lawyers and civil rights advocates say the 'mind-boggling' searches are all too common.

BY Deborah Hastings (http://www.nydailynews.com/authors?author=Deborah%20Hastings)
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, August 2, 2013, 5:45 PM


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1412622.1375197279%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/cavity31n-0730.jpg KTXA-TV Dash cam footage shows Ashley Dobbs, 24, with Texas state trooper Kelley Hellenson, who conducted body cavity searches on two women after a traffic stop for allegedly throwing cigarettes out of the car's windows. No ticket was issued.
The first video was graphic enough. Two women, as shown in a Texas state trooper’s dash cam recording, are probed in their vaginas and rectums by a glove-wearing female officer after a routine traffic stop near Dallas.
A few days later, a second video surfaced. It was an eerily similar scenario, but this time the traffic stop was just outside Houston, and with different troopers. Two women, pulled over for allegedly speeding, are subjected to body cavity searches by a female officer summoned to the scene by a male trooper.
Unlike the earlier tape, this one had clear audio. Yells can be heard as the female trooper shoves her gloved finger inside one woman.
In both invasive incidents, the female troopers don't change gloves between probes, according to the horrified victims.
Texas officials say the searches are unconstitutional. So do attorneys for the shaken women, who have filed federal lawsuits.
But lawyers and civil rights advocates tell the Daily News these cavity searches are really standard policy among the Texas Department of Public Safety’s state troopers, despite their illegality — not to mention that they were conducted on the side of the road in full view of passing motorists.
“It’s ridiculous,” said Dallas attorney Peter Schulte, a former Texas cop and prosecutor. “We would never put our hands anywhere near someone’s private parts,” he said of his time as a police officer in the city of McKinney. “When I saw that video I was shocked. I was a law enforcement officer for 16 years and I’ve never seen anything like it.”
Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw, who oversees state troopers, denied an interview request from The News. In an earlier statements about the videotaped traffic stops, McCraw said his department “does not and will not tolerate any conduct that violates the U.S. and Texas constitutions, or DPS training or policy.”
So how did Texas troopers hundreds of miles apart get captured on dash cams conducting body cavity searches under nearly identical conditions?
“The fact that they both happened means there is some sort of (department) policy” advocating their use at traffic stops, Jim Harrington of the Texas Civil Rights Project told the Daily News. “It’s such a prohibited practice. I don’t know why they think they can do this. It’s mind-boggling.”
Schulte said he doubts the policy is written, and that the practice may have spread from region to region, instead of from the top down.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1412607.1375196895%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/cavity31n-1-0730.jpg KHOU After being stopped for allegedly speeding, two women were subjected to body cavity searches by a female Texas highway patrol officer near Houston.
“I think the Department of Public Safety is trying to figure out who in the world trained these troopers to think that this is OK,” Schulte said. “The law just doesn’t support that. It just doesn’t.”
There have also been two recent cavity-search controversies in other states: Last year in Florida a Citrus County woman, who’d recently been charged with driving under the influence, was pulled over by sheriff’s deputies while driving with her children. In a federal lawsuit, the woman claimed she was given a cavity search on the roadside; in Milwaukee, police were disciplined after 2012 reports surfaced that eight cops had conducted genital searches on arrested suspects without the legal authority to do so.
But those cases don't approach the blatantness of the Texas incidents captured on video, which appear to illustrate a pattern, rather than isolated incidents.
“The odds of two female troopers conducting the same kind of search within six weeks of each other? Come on,” attorney Scott Palmer told The News. He recently settled a federal suit filed against the Department of Public Safety on behalf of clients Angel and Ashley Dobbs, the aunt and niece who were cavity-searched in the first dash cam video to go viral.
No ticket was issued following the lengthy traffic stop in July 2012, and no drugs were found. Angel Dobbs, 38, told The News that trooper David Farrell pulled her over on a Friday night, while she was driving to Oklahoma with her niece, Ashley, 24.
On the patrol car’s loudspeaker, he ordered her off the highway and onto a side road, she said.
He told the women they had thrown cigarette butts out of the car's windows. That wasn’t true, Dobbs said, but she didn’t argue. A long series of questions followed: Where were they going? Who were they going to see? Why were they going? Why was her niece with her?
Then he said he smelled marijuana. The women denied having any. He took the women’s IDs and went to his patrol car.
“He was back there for like 25 minutes,” Dobbs said. “My niece said ‘What's taking him so long?’”
They were ordered out of the car and told to stand in a field by the roadside. Farrell told them he had called for a female office to come and search them, Dobbs said.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1412620.1375196907%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/cavity31n-3-0730.jpg KHOU Dash cam documents trooper Nathaniel Turner shortly after pulling over Brandy Hamilton, who was driving home after a day at the beach with friend Alexandra Randle. He was later suspended. The female officer who conducted cavity searches on the women was fired.
“Do you have anything in your socks? In your shoes? In your underwear?” Dobbs said she was asked. Then trooper Kelley Helleson showed up.
At this point Dobbs started protesting, saying the situation was ridiculous and that she had no drugs and had done nothing wrong. The female officer told her to “shut up and turn around,” Dobbs said.
She did as she was told. Then the trooper’s gloved hand went down her sweat pants in the back and in the front.
The trooper's attorney has said there was no penetration and that both women submitted to the searches.
Dobbs disagrees: “She knows there was penetration. On both sides. Along the side of the road. She knows what she did.”
The dash cam video shows the aunt and niece alternately standing in front of Farrell’s patrol car, holding their arms out while Helleson pats their breasts and puts her hand down the front and back of their pants.
“They didn’t even search my socks or my shoes,” Dobbs said. "I just couldn’t fathom how you could search someone’s butt and their vagina, and not search their socks or shoes.”
Finally, and after Dobbs passed a field sobriety test, she was given a written warning for littering and told she could go.
“We were assaulted on the side of the road,” Dobbs said.
She complained to the troopers’ supervisor in August. In October, investigators from the Texas Rangers interviewed her about what happened. She was frustrated it had taken more than two months to get a response.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1412631.1375197726%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/cavity31n-5-0730.jpg KTRK Alexandra Randle, in red jacket, and Brandy Hamilton, right, at press conference announcing their federal lawsuit against the Texas Department of Public Safety, and other defendants including two state troopers, for violating their civil rights by subjecting them to body cavity searches during a traffic stop.
Then she got a lawyer. Her lawsuit was filed in December. “We had a press conference the next day,” Dobbs said. In January, the case was presented to a Dallas County grand jury. Helleson was later charged with two counts of sexual assault and was fired.
Farrell was indicted on one charge of theft, over a missing bottle of Vicodin from the aunt’s purse, and was suspended pending an internal investigation.
“Until the news got involved, nothing happened,” Dobbs said.
“My heart goes out those ladies,” in the Houston incident she continued. “I know how it feels.”
In late June, Dobbs and her attorneys settled their case for $184,000. Criminal trials against Helleson and Farrell are pending.
“Someone is telling (troopers) that this is a reasonable policy,” said attorney Palmer. “They’re just refusing to acknowledge this is a policy.
Across the state, no criminal charges have been filed in the Houston area traffic stop. But it began in much the same way.
Brandy Hamilton and Alexandria Randle were pulled over for speeding in Brazoria County by Texas state trooper Nathaniel Turner on Memorial Day in 2012. They were on their way home to Houston after spending the day at Surfside Beach on the Gulf of Mexico.
Turner said he smelled marijuana, then ordered Hamilton, the driver, out of the car. “Can I please put on my dress, because I have on a swimsuit,” she asks the trooper, according to the dash cam video.
“Don’t worry about that,” he says, “come on out here.”
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1412632.1375197907%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/cavity31n-6-0730.jpg Texas Department of Public Safety The seal of the Texas Department of Public Safety, which oversees state troopers. Its motto is "Courtesy. Service. Protection."
By the side of Highway 288, Hamilton, wearing a bikini, and Randle, in shorts, are asked a series of questions about whether they have drugs on them or in the car. They say no, just some cigars.
“Is there anything in your bra or underwear?” Turner asks Hamilton. She says no.
Turner calls for a female officer to come and search the women.
Trooper Jennie Bui arrives, and asks for gloves because she doesn’t have any.
“She is about to get up close and personal with some womanly parts,” Turner tells Hamilton. “She is going to search you, I ain’t, because I ain’t about to get up close and personal with your woman areas.”
Hamilton, who is handcuffed, is bent over the patrol car’s passenger seat and probed by Bui.
“Do you know how violated I feel?” Hamilton pleads.
According to the women’s federal lawsuit, filed in June, Randle is then penetrated by Bui, who is wearing the same set of gloves from her search of Hamilton.
The video captures the sound of her screaming.
“They basically raped them on the side of the road,” said Houston attorney Allie Booker, who represents the women. They were part of a two-car caravan of family and friends that had spent the national holiday at the beach.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1412610.1375196824%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/cavity31n-2-0730.jpg KHOU A woman is strip searched in Texas.
When the occupants of the other vehicle realized Hamilton and Randle were no longer behind them, the driver pulled a U-turn and backtracked. Seeing the women standing by the road with Texas troopers, the other car pulled in behind, the lawsuit said.
The video shows an officer asking for their IDs and telling them to stay in the car.
“The other family members were there,” Booker said. “They could hear the screams. They saw the gloves go on.”
The Department of Public Safety fired Bui on June 29. Turner was suspended pending an administrative review.
Texas Rangers investigators have reviewed the case, Booker said, and recommended three weeks ago that it be taken before a grand jury. Brazoria County prosecutors are reviewing those findings, she said.
“Texas is a very big state,” Booker said. “It alarms me that something that happened in north Texas also happened down here in the south.” Since the federal lawsuit became public, the attorney says her office has received about five phone calls from women saying they, too, had been subjected to cavity searches by state troopers.
Booker has also consulted with another lawyer who represents a woman who filed a similar body cavity search complaint with the DPS involving Trooper Bui.
“A lot of people are scared to come forward,” Booker said. “But people are contacting us. They say ‘hey, this happened to me, too.’’’
ON A MOBILE DEVICE? CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9ob7BDGx3Zo)TO SEE VIDEO OF DALLAS INCIDENT.
CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9MQ0ADFKXow&t=3) TO SEE VIDEO OF HOUSTON STOP.

[trish]

http://www.odmp.org/search/year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079428/Big-rise-number-U-S-police-officers-killed-work.html

[my my my!]

http://www.odmp.org/search/year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079428/Big-rise-number-U-S-police-officers-killed-work.html

thanks for the links, may they rest in peace. and the good ones continue to catch the baddies. but...

the other ones, that outnumber the good ones, need to chill the fuck out, and remember they have a responsibility of showing respect to the public without taking their dignity or exercising brutality.

[trish]

Outnumbered? You're being misled by your own cherry picking.

There is no excuse for police violence, nor brutality nor misconduct. The weaponry and armor available now to law enforcement is indeed unprecedented.

Though there is no excuse for violent behavior there are reasons why such behaviors are on the rise and reasons why the voters put police departments above public schools.

No, it’s not because we’re being manipulated by Wall Street bankers who rule the country like a police state through the use of brutal intimidation and force.

What kind of police state does not by law have a national registry of guns?
What kind of modern police state does not, by law, have gun sale records that can be digitally searchable? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/gun-crime-tracing-weapons-difficult_n_2572908.html )
What sort of police state grants ordinary citizens, by law, the right to own firearms?
What sort of growing police state legalizes concealed carry?
What sort of police state outlaws zoning against the carry of firearms in churches and schools?
What sort of emerging police state relaxes firearm regulation even as the majority of the population pleas for more restrictive gun controls?

As anti-government, anti-law enforcement and pro-gun propaganda floods the media, stand your ground shoot outs and violent crime is on the rise.
The number of police killed on the job is up by 13%.
Are the increased expenditures on armor and weapons by law enforcement surprising?
Is the increase in law enforcement manpower unexpected?
Is it surprising that more cops are ill-trained and out of control?
Is it surprising that a brutalizing job brutalizes?

There is no excuse for police violence. The policeman who kills an innocent citizen in a choke hold should be thrown in jail. Policemen who continue to beat a man senseless after he’s been subdued should be prosecuted. Yet no one here has yet provided a modicum of evidence that we’re living in a police state. Rather we are a nation in the grip of a kind of arms escalation. We love guns. So the police are jumpy, armored and armed to the teeth. Surprise, surprise!

In addition to the escalation of arms we see cities, towns and counties attempting to save money by deferring the costs of enforcement and courts to offenders. So now police are encouraged to make arrests and confiscate property. This idea doesn’t come from on high. Its source isn’t Wall Street or the White House. Its source is the grass roots idiots who no longer believe that government (any government... local, state or federal) should collect revenue through taxes; and it is the response of local and State governments to this attitude. This is not a police state. This is most definitely the consequence of government ruled from the bottom up.

There are indeed manufacturers who profit from the sale of arms. There are politicians who will cherry pick the news and argue that government needs to be weakened and everything deregulated in the interest of “freedom” (but really just to win elections by appealing to the basest elements of their base.)
But those politicians, like all the other politicians owe their offices to the electorate. They spend money and take every opportunity to dance and perform for your vote. Bankers don’t put them in office. Corporations don’t put them in office. Neither the police nor the military keep them in office (as would be the case in a police state). You do (if you're a U.S. Citizen who votes). You elect them; and you keep electing them. If you don’t like the consequences of the policies you voted for, re-think those policies next time before you vote.

[the_unnatural]

It would seem to me that pointing out police abuse would be one way to motivate the voters to push for changes. Or is that discourage because, as you say, we don't have a police state?

No need to answer, because I'm sure your response will be more One Trish, Two Cups.

[trish]

Pointing to police abuse is perfectly fine. Pointing to the causes is as well. Claiming we live in a police state just perpetuates a misunderstanding of what a police state is and diverts attention from the root causes, two of which I mentioned above. What causes have you guys brought to light...other than the cabal of mind controlling Wall Street Bankers?

[my my my!]

I've never said, "WE LIVE IN A POLICE STATE" or "this is already a police state"
If you claim I have, then it is just blatant lies on your part saying I have done so.

I've said and continue to say. The USA definitely has symptoms that are found in a an ACTUAL Police State.

I've said that many aspects of a Police State, have similar incarnations in the USA. Does this make it a Police State Already? No, And never have I said so.

If you say , I have said otherwise, then kindly , FUCK OFF.

Refuse to believe so, or have a different opinion? fine.

But don't ever say I say things , that I never said. It makes for pathetic discussion.

[trish]

Please note post 191 is a response to post 190 as post 193 is a response to 192. Also note 189 counters any allegations that we're an emerging police state. 157 addresses the government takeover that some here have been advocating as a way of ending this police state.

[the_unnatural]

I've never mentioned Wall Street bankers, either. Or suggest a violent takeover. I did mention jury nullification. But I can see how details escape you while you type page after page after page of condescending hysterical bullshit.

[trish]

Awe. I'm so sorry you thought I accused you of mentioning Wall Street Bankers. I really am. When I asked, "What causes have you guys brought to light...other than the cabal of mind controlling Wall Street Bankers?" I should've instead asked:What causes have you guys (except the_unnatural, because his contributions are so illustrious and obvious) brought to light...other than the cabal of mind controlling Wall Street Bankers?"

[the_unnatural]

Apology accepted.

[trish]

You're welcome.

[trish]

I did mention jury nullification. But I can see how details escape you while you type...
I do agree that jury nullification can be a powerful tool. It should be used in any case in which the jury thinks the defendant was abused or evidence was planted or was extracted through extortion, torture or by other suspect means. If police find that brutality and misconduct means no convictions (ego no career advancement or raises), they'll have a powerful incentive to stay within the limits of the law.

Question: do judges have the authority to disregard a jury's finding of not-guilty?

[fred41]

..... But I can see how details escape you while you type page after page after page of condescending hysterical bullshit.


..you mean hyperbole such as this :




the other ones, that outnumber the good ones, need to chill the fuck out, and remember they have a responsibility of showing respect to the public without taking their dignity or exercising brutality.


...which obviously didn't come from Trish.

[the_unnatural]

Trish--it has been done. http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/07/24/out-of-control-judges-overturning-not-guilty-jury-verdicts/

Fred--you're right. I'm out of order. You're out of order. This whole fuck the police state thread is out of order.

[trish]

I call it hysterical chromatography; i.e. the use of condescending hysterical posts to separate out the various elements in the mix.

We know know with crystal clarity that Tempest wants to overthrow the government (preferably but necessarily non-violently), the_unnatural is definitely against violent overthrow and My-my-my quite definitely doesn't think the U.S. is a police state.

I'm just wondering, if someone posts one anti-police diatribe after another in a thread entitled "Fuck the Police State", what they think the takeaway message would be?

Thanks for the vote of confidence Fred. I'm outta here and hitting the beaches for the couple of weeks. Have fun while I'm gone.

[trish]

We're all fucking out of order. As the upper crust say, "Toodles."

[fred41]

Enjoy the beach...knock em dead in your bikini.

[TempestTS]

Please note post 191 is a response to post 190 as post 193 is a response to 192. Also note 189 counters any allegations that we're an emerging police state. 157 addresses the government takeover that some here have been advocating as a way of ending this police state.


In regard to post 192 and the note in 189... Sorry too hard to follow - you wouldnt happen to have a power point or flow chart of that?

[TempestTS]

I want a government For and By the people - a duty which this one seems to have lost all interest in - I want my vote to have meaning, I want the power to return to the people.

And I dont want my local sheriff to be driving around in a Mine Resistant Freaking TANK.

Do you have land mines where you live Trish? - I dont...

The excuse is we have people coming out of the military who know how to build IED's - first off we fucking trained them for that so what this says is we dont trust our own soldiers - secondly Like you need to be trained for that - there are actually books on this in the public library - its called history of warfare and weaponry - these are not top secret concepts.

My take away message is in the title - I think I was rather clear on where I stood from step one.

As American military forces return from Iraq and Afghanistan, one Indiana police station is benefiting from a mine-resistant vehicles once used to tour the war zone to combat a new breed of criminal with military training.
'When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,' Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told FOX 59 'The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.'
Roughly $4.3 billion worth of military property has been handed over to local and state agencies since 1990, according to the Law Enforcement Support Office.
Scroll down for video


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/19/article-2633150-1E05423200000578-880_634x426.jpg
+2

This $650,000 Mine Resistant Vehicle once patrolled the war zones of Afghanistan before ending up with Indiana law enforcement







I call it hysterical chromatography; i.e. the use of condescending hysterical posts to separate out the various elements in the mix.

We know know with crystal clarity that Tempest wants to overthrow the government (preferably but necessarily non-violently), the_unnatural is definitely against violent overthrow and My-my-my quite definitely doesn't think the U.S. is a police state.

I'm just wondering, if someone posts one anti-police diatribe after another in a thread entitled "Fuck the Police State", what they think the takeaway message would be?

Thanks for the vote of confidence Fred. I'm outta here and hitting the beaches for the couple of weeks. Have fun while I'm gone.

[my my my!]

Some Recent news,

It even caught Obama's attention.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/feds-seize-control-police-operations-ferguson/#GtKWoJj3Zi2PcHok.99

[trish]

Talk to people in St. Louis and what you find is they do not believe we live in a police state, but rather they believe the local police have prejudicial elements and that minorities are highly underrepresented in the force.

This complaint is rather universal throughout the U.S. I mentioned in this thread before that I and many I know have been harassed for driving while black and walking in the wrong neighborhood while black.

People across the U.S. have also noted (as this thread does) the militarization of the police. What they mean by this is not the militarization of the police hierarchy, nor its modus operandi nor the militarization of our domestic governments (i.e. we do not live in a police state, nor a budding police state) but rather the militarization of the police refers to the militarization of police equipment. Police departments now have vehicles armored against IEDs, military assault weapons, and military style personal armor. We’ve discussed in this thread the reasons behind this.

1 Historically this build up reaches back at least into the 80’s and 90’s war against drugs. At that time Congress felt that police department needed armor and arms to fight and defend against violent drug cartels. Since then there have been grants to police departments for the acquisition of arms and armor.

2 This program has been modernized and rebooted after 9-11 in a paranoid reaction against terrorism. Anyone who watched their TV’s during the Boston Marathon bombing has seen the result of this militarization. In addition to grants the Pentagon now transfers no longer used military equipment to local police departments. Police departments say, “We don’t really need a truck hardened against artillery shells and IEDs but its free and we do need a truck impervious to bullets, so yeah, we’ll take it.” As we withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan (lol) more of this equipment will become available.

3 This build up of arms also corresponds to the build up of arms in the citizenry. I think now every State has passed concealed carry. We see citizens in the news who carry M16s and other assault weapons just to openly taunt police. The data shows that the police have the citizenry well out-armed. Nevertheless, the arming of the citizenry has made the police dangerously jumpy. They clearly need better training.

Arms and testosterone are a dangerous mix regardless of whether the testosterone is in uniform or Walmart camo. I am not in favor of the militarization of the police nor the citizenry. I would favor a cut back on grants to the police for the acquisition of arms and a total cut of the Pentagon transfer program.

More importantly police departments have to become more heterogeneous. They need to be representative of and understanding of and sensitive to the populations they serve. Police academies need to do more than just open their doors to academies. They need to recruit minorities and remake themselves into organizations a minority person would want to join.

[my my my!]

Talk to people in St. Louis and what you find is they do not believe we live in a police state.

Proof or it is just conjecture

Who talked to these people? you ?

who's been saying this?

[Ben]

Rand Paul says: Demilitarize the Police

http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

[Ben]

The Militarization of U.S. Police: Finally Dragged Into the Light by the Horrors of Ferguson:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/14/militarization-u-s-police-dragged-light-horrors-ferguson/

[buttslinger]

Hey, where the fuck is Natina? We need a narrative here! Should all cops be outfitted with cameras?

[Cuchulain]

"...if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me." - http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

"A more informed bottom line would go a little more something like this: when cops armed like an invading army force observers from Amnesty International to their knees, at gunpoint, they aren't enforcing the law, they are breaking it. They are criminals, they should lose their badges and they should be sued. They should not get to kill people without trial for walking aggressively." - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-womack/do-police-even-know-the-l_b_5693164.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

[Ben]

And meanwhile in Iceland...

Iceland grieves after police kill a man for the first time in its history:

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-03/iceland-grieves-after-police-kill-man-first-time-its-history

[Turlington]

Seen on Tumblr:

Please note: “everyone who works retail, admin, or labor” is pretty much everyone. I can’t remember the last time I worked somewhere without “security” cameras that monitored employees.

I’m having a good laugh right now because our associates just got collectively reprimanded for leaning on the counters during 8 hour shifts on their feet, because it isn’t “professional” looking. So apparently they can put up with a camera over their shoulder to make sure they do their jobs correctly, but a cop with a gun cant?

The people in retail get reprimanded for leaning on the counter, and yet a cop can execute someone and not even be arrested.

[NRT]

does anyone know if there is a colour/racial undetone to the deaths of unarmed suspects especially teens? Is it mainly white cops who are perceived to be trigger happy? what are the stats for white cops shooting unarmed whites? or black cops shooting unarmed whites? or black cops killing unarmed blacks?

[Stavros]

Channel 4 news has produced a 'FactCheck' which delves into the stats that are available, and it makes grim reading, even if one balances out some of the figures, for example 93% of Black Americans are killed by other Black Americans -but then 84% of White Americans are killed by other White Americans, because in both categories the murders are related to incidents involving family friends or people known to each other in some capacity.

Numerically, more White Americans are killed by law enforcement, but if you then calculate the percentages, Black Americans as a proportion of the whole population are more likely to be murdered by LE than other groups--

Divide the deaths by the average population and there were more than three black deaths at police hands per million people compared to about one in a million for whites.
The FBI also has some figures on this but it is very incomplete, with only a fraction of America’s 17,000 law enforcement agencies submitting data, so the numbers should probably be seen as the bare minimum.
We haven’t been furnished with the original data by the feds, so we’re relying on secondhand reports from the US media.
Vox.com (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6051043/how-many-people-killed-police-statistics-homicide-official-black) says there were 426 “felons killed by police” in 2012, and 31 per cent of the victims were black – a disproportionately high percentage, and very similar to the Bureau of Justice figures.
The website ProPublica (http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white) also looks at FBI figures but concentrates on young men aged 15 to 19 and finds that black people in this age group are 21 times more likely to be killed by the police.
When it was white officers who did the killing, the casualties were black nearly half (46 per cent) the time.
Finally, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss.htm) collect figures for deaths caused by “legal intervention”, which includes police killings but leaves out executions.
From 2010 to 2012, black people were two to three times more likely to be killed by legal intervention.


Full link is here-
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-killed-police/19423

[yodajazz]

I'm behind the curve and see that this post I made in the other thread was more appropriate here:

Here in my city police killed a 12 year old, with a toy (soft air) gun, three days ago. I guess he was too young to have 2nd amendment rights. And too old to be playing with toys. That awkward age, they say sometimes.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-boy/19471925/

Update: Most of the incident was captured on video. Apparently the kid did wave it around and point at people earlier, but when the police arrived he had it his waistband. He did not raise his hands when ordered by the police. Speculation, is that me may have wanted to show it to the police. The police already had their weapons drawn. There have been protests here in the city. But the strategy from the the city, has been to let the people vent. And they have gone home after the protest with no property damage.

[TempestTS]

And the video released show police shot and killed the 12yo boy 2 seconds after arriving on scene - TWO....

seriously how can anyone defend that level of force that quickly... they said they ordered the boy to drop the weapon 3 times in that time -before opening fire -

How fucking fast can you possibly drop a weapon and how can you do it without touching it?

I cant possibly think of an excuse that would work for this - death by cop - which would otherwise be called murder - yet again...



I'm behind the curve and see that this post I made in the other thread was more appropriate here:

Here in my city police killed a 12 year old, with a toy (soft air) gun, three days ago. I guess he was too young to have 2nd amendment rights. And too old to be playing with toys. That awkward age, they say sometimes.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-boy/19471925/

Update: Most of the incident was captured on video. Apparently the kid did wave it around and point at people earlier, but when the police arrived he had it his waistband. He did not raise his hands when ordered by the police. Speculation, is that me may have wanted to show it to the police. The police already had their weapons drawn. There have been protests here in the city. But the strategy from the the city, has been to let the people vent. And they have gone home after the protest with no property damage.

[Odelay]

So the union representing the St Louis police officers were not amused by several members of the Rams football team raising their hands as they made their entrance to the stadium. I'm also barraged on facebook from a couple of conservative friends/relatives with all these heartfelt stories about how tough and dangerous it is to be a cop.

I really don't get all the sympathy that cops and their fb friends are crying out for. Deaths of police officers has been on a steep decline since the 1970's and an even steeper decline on a per capita basis, from around 240/yr to 100/yr last year. In 1911 there were 128 cop deaths, with one third the total population in the US. Seems to me that being a cop has never been more safe.

Add to this that they're one of the few professions remaining that have really strong union representation, thus pretty good wages relative to many professions where unions have been destroyed. Not sure what they're whining about.

[martin48]

Just a comment

[goatman]

[NYPD Union boss] Patrick Lynch is obviously a very lousy poker player!

[Ben in LA]

My avatar picture, featuring Eazy E...

[broncofan]

Just watched the videotape. There's no way the police officer who choked Eric Garner should not have been prosecuted. The autopsy came back that it was a homicide, from compression to Garner's neck and chest. There can be a lot of arguments about exactly what happened in the Brown shooting (I haven't read all of the witness statements) but there's no doubt Pantaleo should have been indicted. The grand jury had a bunch of options in front of them including lesser charges like reckless endangerment...

I'm inclined to think that prosecutors are not independent enough...they must not be pursuing police officers the way they should be. Getting an indictment is typically very easy. There must have been a deliberate attempt to sandbag the grand jury process.

[Odelay]

Just watched the videotape. There's no way the police officer who choked Eric Garner should not have been prosecuted. The autopsy came back that it was a homicide, from compression to Garner's neck and chest. There can be a lot of arguments about exactly what happened in the Brown shooting (I haven't read all of the witness statements) but there's no doubt Pantaleo should have been indicted. The grand jury had a bunch of options in front of them including lesser charges like reckless endangerment...

I'm inclined to think that prosecutors are not independent enough...they must not be pursuing police officers the way they should be. Getting an indictment is typically very easy. There must have been a deliberate attempt to sandbag the grand jury process.

So broncofan, did you see the video of the Cleveland cops shooting the 12 yr old? How do you see that one going down. The cops say they told the kid to raise his hands 3 times, but that can't be because the kid was shot within 2 seconds from the time the car pulled up. And then they didn't administer any emergency medical attention to the kid. I guess that maxim about dead victims not testifying holds here.

It's gotten really friggen crazy around here. Not sure if these remarkable situations are unique, or if the events are now just drawing more media and internet attention.

[broncofan]

So broncofan, did you see the video of the Cleveland cops shooting the 12 yr old? How do you see that one going down. The cops say they told the kid to raise his hands 3 times, but that can't be because the kid was shot within 2 seconds from the time the car pulled up. And then they didn't administer any emergency medical attention to the kid. I guess that maxim about dead victims not testifying holds here.

It's gotten really friggen crazy around here. Not sure if these remarkable situations are unique, or if the events are now just drawing more media and internet attention.
I was skimming the news today and I saw a headline about a report criticizing Cleveland police but I didn't see that case. I'm sure this has been going on for a long time...I am of the opinion that despite the Garner outcome, video cameras on police officers will be useful. It will act as some deterrent and for rational people who like video it can give them something to look at (knowing the facts is half the battle).

When I was a summer intern in law school I read at a couple of grand jury sessions. You literally read a statement of probable cause and answer a couple of the prosecutor's questions and five minutes later there's an indictment. I am saying this for those who don't know, probable cause is typically not a high standard. People may have apprehensions about what they saw on the video and don't want to rush to judgment, but they were only making a probable cause determination!

I just don't understand why something that is so frequently a summary process is turning into an impenetrable barrier. Even in the Brown case where there were multiple witnesses and there is a difficult factual reconstruction, you'd normally have an indictment with that evidence...it doesn't mean you necessarily get a conviction but the average person has to stand trial when they kill someone and the circumstances surrounding it are suspicious.

[AshlynCreamher]

I dated a cop once, he was very rigid - fuck the police!

[yodajazz]

So broncofan, did you see the video of the Cleveland cops shooting the 12 yr old? How do you see that one going down. The cops say they told the kid to raise his hands 3 times, but that can't be because the kid was shot within 2 seconds from the time the car pulled up. And then they didn't administer any emergency medical attention to the kid. I guess that maxim about dead victims not testifying holds here.

It's gotten really friggen crazy around here. Not sure if these remarkable situations are unique, or if the events are now just drawing more media and internet attention.

I read the entire report. Within it it details 16 incidents for example of various police misconduct. Here is one:

" [SIZE="3"]1. CDP officers carelessly fire their weapons, placing themselves, subjects, and bystanders at unwarranted risk of serious injury or death.
We reviewed incidents in which officers carelessly or accidentally fired their weapons, at times critically injuring people, in instances where it may not have been appropriate to have drawn their firearms at all. An officer’s decision to reach into a man’s vehicle while the officer had his gun drawn and in his hand resulted in the officer shooting the man in the chest. “Nathan” had tried to make a right turn from the center lane, cutting off and almost colliding with a car that was proceeding straight through the intersection. It was 2:30 in the morning, and the area was crowded with pedestrians who had emptied out of the local bars and restaurants. Nathan was unable to complete the right turn because the street was blocked off, but by this time there were pedestrians crossing behind his vehicle, such that he could not back up into his lane. Consequently, he was stuck in the middle of the intersection, blocking traffic. At this point, an officer approached Nathan’s vehicle with his gun drawn. The records of the incident provide no
written basis to explain why he drew his gun, which is in itself a troubling fact. In his videotaped statement, the officer merely said he felt “uneasy” because he could not see Nathan’s hands. With his gun pointed at Nathan, the officer ordered Nathan to turn off his ignition and to show the officer his hands. The officer claims Nathan did not obey these commands and that he had his right hand down where the officer could not see it. Nathan claims that he had his hands up and was afraid to move them because the officer was pointing his gun at him. When Nathan did not comply, the officer himself attempted to turn off the vehicle. To do so, he leaned his entire upper body into the car and, with his right hand, attempted to turn off the car. Meanwhile, his gun was in his left hand, pointed at Nathan, and his finger was on the trigger. He claims that he then felt force on his hand “like [Nathan] was trying to grab my weapon.” The gun discharged, striking Nathan, who had been stopped originally for a potentially unlawful left turn,
once in the chest.

This shooting resulted from poor tactics by the officer ..."[SIZE]

[TempestTS]

statistically Murder by Cop is climbing nationwide as the top cause of Homicide - Actually Utah it's number ONE above domestic violence related homicide and death's related to robbery. If you are killed by another human being in the state of Utah its more likely to be a cop than anyone else - WTF have we come to?

[Ben]

Obama Takes Bold Step To Address Aggressive Police Tactics:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjZZNWxRKHU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjZZNWxRKHU)

[Ben]

From the Guardian:

Gunman murders two NYPD officers in Brooklyn before shooting himself


Officers killed in ambush named as Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos
Suspect Ismaaiyl Brinsley also linked to shooting in Baltimore
Police unions say ‘blood on hands’ of protesters and mayor

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/20/two-nypd-officers-shot-dead-brooklyn-gunman-shoots-himself

[Ben]

From The Young Turks...

Two NYPD Police Officers Shot, Killed In Brooklyn - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC0oTPvgPXA)

[Ben]

Very upsetting...

Three cops, a 17-year-old and 'a cry for help': why did Kristiana Coignard die?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/28/kristiana-coignard-longview-texas-police-killing

[Ben]

Teen Girl Fatally Shot by Cops at Texas Police Station (http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/26/kristiana-coignard-shot-in-longview-texa)

It takes multiple cops firing multiple shots to subdue a 17-year-old girl with a knife?
http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/26/kristiana-coignard-shot-in-longview-texa

[Ben]

NYPD Using ‘Road House’ to Train Cops:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6avKEcSIPmo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6avKEcSIPmo)

[plankton]

You got the change you wanted. A nanny state. Have you heard the old saying if you live in my house you follow my rules? Well it's their house now.

[trish]

Some of Eric Holder’s remarks concerning the Justice Department Report into police practices:

" He described Ferguson as a community where officials used law enforcement to generate revenue and did so disproportionately against African-Americans because of racial bias.
...
Although some community perceptions around the death of Michael Brown may not have been accurate, Mr Holder said, "the climate that created them was all too real". He added: "Some of those protesters were right."
...
Mr Holder said that while the problems found in the report in Ferguson were "acute" they were "not confined to any one city, state, or geographic region". "

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31735414

The militarization of law enforcement, racial prejudice and inappropriate funding practices (which amount in my estimation to extortion) predominate the landscape. I think better Federal oversight of local enforcement agencies, local justice departments and their “revenue raising” practices are warranted by the report. Not holding my breath though.

[trish]

You got the change you wanted. A nanny state. Have you heard the old saying if you live in my house you follow my rules? Well it's their house now.

This is what you get when you couple racism with State legislatures that refuse to increase taxes, governors who cut funding to municipalities and courts that endorse the practice of civil asset forfeiture.

[TempestTS]

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/01/how-police-became-a-standing-army/


"
On July 15, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) sent 13 law-enforcement officers to execute a paramilitary raid on a no-kill animal shelter in Kenosha. The crime? The shelter was harboring a fawn that had been abandoned by its mother and named Giggles by shelter volunteers. The shelter intended to turn the animal over to a wildlife reserve the next day, but that was not good enough for the DNR. Wisconsin law forbids the possession of wildlife, so DNR sent the heavily armed team to capture and euthanize Giggles.

Eleven days later and less than 100 miles away, staff at a nursing home in the Chicago suburb of Park Forest called paramedics after 95-year-old World War II veteran John Wrana, suffering from a delusional episode, refused medical treatment. The paramedics in turn called the police, which further agitated Wrana, who threatened them with his cane and a knife. The police responded by shooting Wrana with stun guns and bean bags fired from a shotgun. Wrana died from internal bleeding shortly thereafter.

A generation ago, it is unlikely that either of these situations would have elicited such a violent response from law enforcement. But over the last 40 years, police have moved steadily towards increasing levels of force and militarization with little regard for the situation. Journalist Radley Balko has been documenting this phenomenon for nearly a decade, and in Rise of the Warrior Cop he explains how America has been transformed into a country where police conduct something on the order of 50,000 SWAT raids a year."

Read more at the above link - the police state is real, the new standing army wears blue and it happened so slowly most of America hasnt even woken up to that fact yet...

[my my my!]

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/01/how-police-became-a-standing-army/


"
On July 15, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) sent 13 law-enforcement officers to execute a paramilitary raid on a no-kill animal shelter in Kenosha. The crime? The shelter was harboring a fawn that had been abandoned by its mother and named Giggles by shelter volunteers. The shelter intended to turn the animal over to a wildlife reserve the next day, but that was not good enough for the DNR. Wisconsin law forbids the possession of wildlife, so DNR sent the heavily armed team to capture and euthanize Giggles.

Eleven days later and less than 100 miles away, staff at a nursing home in the Chicago suburb of Park Forest called paramedics after 95-year-old World War II veteran John Wrana, suffering from a delusional episode, refused medical treatment. The paramedics in turn called the police, which further agitated Wrana, who threatened them with his cane and a knife. The police responded by shooting Wrana with stun guns and bean bags fired from a shotgun. Wrana died from internal bleeding shortly thereafter.

A generation ago, it is unlikely that either of these situations would have elicited such a violent response from law enforcement. But over the last 40 years, police have moved steadily towards increasing levels of force and militarization with little regard for the situation. Journalist Radley Balko has been documenting this phenomenon for nearly a decade, and in Rise of the Warrior Cop he explains how America has been transformed into a country where police conduct something on the order of 50,000 SWAT raids a year."

Read more at the above link - the police state is real, the new standing army wears blue and it happened so slowly most of America hasnt even woken up to that fact yet...

Tempest, police are just stupid and trigger happy now. a really dangerous combination. The symptoms of a quasi police state are indeed there. Of course there are some in this very thread that will say it isn't so. That we are just making this stuff up. And that people deserve this type of reaction from law enforcement. We don't need a Hitler type or centralized oppressor to feel oppressed.

[yodajazz]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/24/1379943/-Arrested-for-sagging-pants-Ervin-Edwards-tasered-to-death-in-custody-Police-lie-in-report#

Why is someone be taken in to police custody for "sagging pants". Granted, it was illegal in that community, but that seems like an offense that should be covered by issuing a citation, not an arrest-able offence. I think the man probably had some mental health, and substance issues, but did he deserve to die? By the way, Whites were sagging long before Blacks. It was white blue collar workers, who were associated with 'having their burr cracks showing. For example, some had tool belts etc. I remember one tv episode of "Designing Women" in the early ninties, I guess, that had a long comedy segment about this. At the end a White plumber came in And when he went under the sink, you saw his crack, and the show ended, with a big laugh. 2013 a community makes it a crime, when Black youth are doing it. And in this story, a Black man is killed by the police in custody. But that's because it's no longer funny, huh?

[Stavros]

Why is someone be taken in to police custody for "sagging pants". Granted, it was illegal in that community, but that seems like an offense that should be covered by issuing a citation, not an arrest-able offence. I think the man probably had some mental health, and substance issues, but did he deserve to die? By the way, Whites were sagging long before Blacks. It was white blue collar workers, who were associated with 'having their burr cracks showing. For example, some had tool belts etc. I remember one tv episode of "Designing Women" in the early ninties, I guess, that had a long comedy segment about this. At the end a White plumber came in And when he went under the sink, you saw his crack, and the show ended, with a big laugh. 2013 a community makes it a crime, when Black youth are doing it. And in this story, a Black man is killed by the police in custody. But that's because it's no longer funny, huh?

In the UK we have called it 'builder's arse' or 'builder's bum' for decades or more but I think in more general terms with 'sagging pants' and also the baseball cap turned backwards or to the side, you are looking at how something that originates in one place -say, urban gangs or prison- migrates through other social groups until it becomes a bland fashion statement.
I know nothing about baseball but have read somewhere that an American player who needed to put on a face mask had to turn his cap backwards to fit it on; in other cases it became a part of gang uniform -presumably Black, then Latino then white?- until it just became a fashion statement, possibly gang members then just turned the cap sideways to be different. There is another theory that a backwards cap is a signal that the wearer is ready to give oral sex, particularly among lesbians (?).

There was a case in Arizona where a student was taken into custody for not wearing his cap according to the rules:
...a black student named Marlon Morgan wearing a sideways baseball cap was arrested during his lunch period. Marlon attended Saguaro High School in Scottsdale, Arizona, which has a policy against hats turned sideways. The policy cites this manner of hat-wearing as 'disrespectful'. He was asked to turn it forward facing. Marlon refused, pointing to other white students around him who were doing the same thing. He was asked to go to the office, which he didn't. The police were called, he still refused to turn his hat around. By then he was drawing a crowd, so the decision was made to take him into custody to prevent... well, the article doesn't exactly say. A scene, probably. He was held for several hours and then released, and no charges against him were made. http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?id=4712
(note- this website is now redundant).

The sagging pants is probably much older than the other theory which is that it comes out of prisons where inmates are not allowed to wear belts, thus it is a sign that someone is 'hip' or 'cool' because they have done time, which might be important in gangs -again this seems to migrate backwards and forwards through Black, White, Latino and gangs until it becomes a fashion statement, much as Rap began as the expression of urban Black rage/resentment and power and eventually morphed/collapsed into the bland mainstream, even if it remains unintelligible to men of my age and cultural disposition.

I guess a policeman seeing someone with sagging pants and a backwards cap is thinking -if he wants to be a gangster, I'll treat him like one...

[trish]

Apparently dreamon loves civil asset forfeiture and thinks it should be used by law enforcement agencies and courts to fund themselves. That way he gets to pay less taxes. The only drawback is a militarized police force prepared to confiscate money and property on trumped up charges and judges who will support them. We do not live in a federal police state (or a quasi police state): our troubles are the result of narrow minded state and local leaders, racism and poor social & fiscal policies on the level of state and local governments.

[yodajazz]

Thanks for your response Starvos. However, focus was really more about, why is such a behavior as sagging, such an offense that a person could be taken into police custody because of it? And in this case, the man died while in custody. Black Americans are probably the most incarcerated population on planet Earth. I have seen statistics that say a Black male teen has a 1 in 4 chance of spending time in prison, in the US. And then throw in the concept of private 'for profit' prisons, who sometimes have a guaranteed occupancy rates, in the contracts with the states. Here in my city this year, a policeman shot and killed a 12 year old who was playing with a 'toy' gun, ( an air pistol). Late last year in my state of Ohio, a Black man was killed in Walmart, carrying an air rifle that he got off the shelf in the store. The man was about 21, and had two small children. I had a first cousin that died in police custody, but that was in the eighties. They claimed that he hung himself. But he was only in for a DUI and was the father of two young children. The US dept of Justice wrote a whole report on police dept here. My favorite incident in the report was about a man, who was 'accidentally' shot in the chest, by a policeman for attempting to make a right turn from the center lane, downtown. Why would a police even be drawing his pistol for such a minor offense? Such behavior had the potential of harming bystanders, since the reason the car could not complete the turn, because the cross walk was crowded with pedestrians. How about when the police here, pumped 127 bullets killing two, unarmed people. The did run from police. However the reason the police came after them, has been reported to have probably been a car engine backfire. Lastly, you're from England, I believe. I recently read a online report that claimed that more Americans were killed by the police in March, than in England for 100 years. I don't know if this is true or not. It said that only 12-13 people had been killed by the police there in that 100 year time frame. I wouldn't run from the police, but lots of people are deathly scared. The man in the attached article, went with the police, and died in their custody.

[broncofan]

There are reasons to be afraid of police officers, particularly if you are African-American. However, I don't see how any objective person could ever believe they would be safer by running from a police officer. What is an officer supposed to do when they are questioning someone and they bolt? Not give chase? If a person runs, it means at the very least they will be in a confrontation with an armed officer.

Your last two sentences make it sound as though African-Americans are faced with a dilemma where they think they will be safer fleeing from any officer than complying with lawful requests. I can't for the life of me see that. I think in terms of pure risk creation (not justification), anything that escalates a situation with someone who is armed is dangerous.

None of that is an excuse for police violence. If a police officer uses an unlawful amount of force he or she should obviously be prosecuted.

[Stavros]

Thanks for your response Starvos. However, focus was really more about, why is such a behavior as sagging, such an offense that a person could be taken into police custody because of it? And in this case, the man died while in custody. Black Americans are probably the most incarcerated population on planet Earth. I have seen statistics that say a Black male teen has a 1 in 4 chance of spending time in prison, in the US. And then throw in the concept of private 'for profit' prisons, who sometimes have a guaranteed occupancy rates, in the contracts with the states. Here in my city this year, a policeman shot and killed a 12 year old who was playing with a 'toy' gun, ( an air pistol). Late last year in my state of Ohio, a Black man was killed in Walmart, carrying an air rifle that he got off the shelf in the store. The man was about 21, and had two small children. I had a first cousin that died in police custody, but that was in the eighties. They claimed that he hung himself. But he was only in for a DUI and was the father of two young children. The US dept of Justice wrote a whole report on police dept here. My favorite incident in the report was about a man, who was 'accidentally' shot in the chest, by a policeman for attempting to make a right turn from the center lane, downtown. Why would a police even be drawing his pistol for such a minor offense? Such behavior had the potential of harming bystanders, since the reason the car could not complete the turn, because the cross walk was crowded with pedestrians. How about when the police here, pumped 127 bullets killing two, unarmed people. The did run from police. However the reason the police came after them, has been reported to have probably been a car engine backfire. Lastly, you're from England, I believe. I recently read a online report that claimed that more Americans were killed by the police in March, than in England for 100 years. I don't know if this is true or not. It said that only 12-13 people had been killed by the police there in that 100 year time frame. I wouldn't run from the police, but lots of people are deathly scared. The man in the attached article, went with the police, and died in their custody.

Yodajazz thanks for your response and I do appreciate the difference between arresting someone for sagging pants and shooting dead someone in the various cases you referred to. As I pointed out in an earlier post, there are proportionately more Black people in prison in the UK than there are in the US, and the statistics reveal, as stated in the link "More than 500 black and ethnic minority individuals have died in suspicious circumstances while in state detention over the past 24 years, but not a single official has been successfully prosecuted, a report examining institutional racism has revealed."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/21/500-black-asian-deaths-custody-no-prosecutions

In the UK some of these victims were being 'cared for' not by the police or the prison service but by private security firms under contract to the police or the prison system. If most of these cases do not get the same attention as their counterparts in the US, even in the British media, this may because it is preferable to look at someone else's problems rather than our own. Moreover, when it does become an issue in the media it is almost always in regard to someone who is involved in crime and therefore in some way 'responsible' for their own death or at least unlikely to get much public sympathy, as happened with the murder of a man called Mark Duggan who was shot dead by the police in 2011, and whose death sparked riots in British cities unprecedented since the riots of 1981. On the radio a week or so ago a Black man was complaining of the fact that he had been stopped and searched by the police 87 times last year. I have never been stopped or searched by the police in my entire life. It is called discrimination, and it is as real here as it is in the USA.
There are of course wider issues which relate to the devastating loss of jobs in the industrial sectors in both the UK and the US which has had an abnormal impact on low-or-non skilled workers, not least when running drugs is the only alternative source of income, as is true of some but I assume not all young people in West Baltimore. But as your post says, there is the grotesque fact that if it wasn't for the abnormally high volume of Black prisoners in privately run prisons they would go out of business -and I daresay many of their prison guards are also Black and would lose their jobs. Nevertheless, Atlanta used to have one of the highest rates of crime in the US whereas now for a city with more than 200,000 its crime rate is lower than Salt Lake City. Washington DC had a crime epidemic in the 1990s related directly to the crack epidemic, and while a lot of it was deal with by extreme prison sentencing (sentencing in the US is significantly more extreme than in Europe), the decline of crack use and a different attitude to drugs by young people who saw their parents generation destroyed has made a difference, so that it is possible for situations to change for the better.
A lot depends on how America treats its minorities, an issue that is just as relevant in the UK and for which there are no easy solutions. But maybe the police in the US should be just a bit more tolerant of misdemeanors? And let's face it, if a thirty-year old policeman can't run after and apprehend an unarmed 50 year old suspect, maybe he should spend time in the gym.

[yodajazz]

28 year old woman, arrested after a stop for failing to use turn signal, commits suicide in jail(?). My research found a police spokesperson claims she kicked a policeman after being stopped.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-sandra-bland-texas-jail-death-met-0717-20150717-story.html#page=1

[Stavros]

I hesitate to use the words 'Once again..' in the case of Sandra Bland, but as I said in the earlier post "maybe the police in the US should be just a bit more tolerant of misdemeanors?" -changing lanes without indicating may be worthy of a caution, I just don't understand how it could not just escalate at the scene, but lead to incarceration and result in what seems to me to have been a complete breakdown by a woman who must have been so terribly alone and scared, as if in the space of a few hours her entire world had fallen apart -for what? On the one hand it may never be a good idea to 'talk back' to a policeman, in any country, but there are times when one wonders if citizens have to give up some of their legal rights to bow and scrape before a policeman or a 'state trooper' (whatever that is), just to avoid having the rest of their rights -such as the right to life- completely discarded.

Or it could just be a simple case: Sandra Bland was Black. End of story. It just ain't right.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sandra-bland-the-5-questions-that-we-should-still-be-asking-10418370.html

[flabbybody]

"bow and scrape before a policeman" ?? That's certainly not what was being asked of her.
Sandra Bland would be nothing more than a traffic statistic had she simply complied with instructions in a respectful manner....as we are all obligated to do while operating a motor vehicle during a routine encounter with a police officer.
It's not a perfect world Stavros, cops have bad days. no doubt this a tragic death of an innocent person, but at the end of the day Ms Bland taking a tiny different course of action would have resulted in her driving away with a warning or summons.... annoyed but alive.

[buttslinger]

Rookie cop pulling over CRIMINAL LANE CHANGERS is a joke, but so is all these family and friends of Sandra Bland CASHING IN on her death when they couldn't even scrape up 500 bucks to bail her out of jail.

I got a DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED arrest once, and while the cops were transferring me to another precinct near my house, I shared a ride with some black kid on his eighteenth birthday whose own parents called the cops to literally drag him out of their house. When we got to the station the cop let me walk, but he picked up the little black kid and SLAMMED him up against the brick wall......
"We're not going to have anymore trouble from you, are we?"

It's not a fluke that half of the country is Republican, the FAMILY UNIT in the USA ain't what it used to be. Problem children become problem adults.

My Grandfather was practically a Plantation owner in the 1930s deep south and wasn't afraid of anything or anyone except for the Black Nanny that raised him. She had his number.

[Stavros]

"bow and scrape before a policeman" ?? That's certainly not what was being asked of her.
Sandra Bland would be nothing more than a traffic statistic had she simply complied with instructions in a respectful manner....as we are all obligated to do while operating a motor vehicle during a routine encounter with a police officer.
It's not a perfect world Stavros, cops have bad days. no doubt this a tragic death of an innocent person, but at the end of the day Ms Bland taking a tiny different course of action would have resulted in her driving away with a warning or summons.... annoyed but alive.

I understand the point you are making, giving lip to a policeman in this country is also not advisable.
On the other hand, policemen or state troopers ought to be able to take much worse than Sandra Bland gave them without losing their cool, they are the professionals in this situation -are they not trained to deal with hostile suspects? The issue is the law, not the person, but I suspect that on both sides of the pond this gets lost in the heat of the moment. The danger is that one ends up blaming the victim rather than the system which dealt severely with her disobedience, but then abandoned her in her cell when she was at her most vulnerable. She could at least have been put in a cell with someone else to talk to.