How do you deal with stalker?

[AsianG]

Hello everyone. I have concern with my safety. Have any of you been dealing with people who constantly send you threatening messages thru email? How do you guys deal with it?

I went to LGBT place in NYC and they gave me a list of organizations I can contact. I'd like some more advice from anyone in here who have been through the similar situation. Thank you in advance.

xxxx

Asian Gee

[CarlaFan]

Generally, forums aren't the best place for that sort of advise. Terroristic threats are illegal and should taken seriously by the appropriate authorities.

[fred41]

It's a good idea to save the threatening emails...they'll provide evidence if you want to start a complaint.
Good luck AsianG,..I'm sorry a weirdo attached himself to you...nobody needs that kind of crap.

[Michelle Firestone]

call up guido & tell him somebody wants to be shorter

[maaarc]

sorry for your troubles - this article seemed to provide some sound advice. I'd look into buying a dog if you don't already own one - I'd suggest an American Staffordshire Terrier and perhaps a firearm or two.


http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/stalkingsolutions.htm

Hope your situation improves

[kittyKaiti]

Step #1: Acquire all evidence you can. Emails, social media messages, text messages, audio recordings or if the individual is harassing you in person, video recordings. This should be provided in a police report. If you feel the individual is a threat to your physical safety, you may acquire a restraining order.

Step #2: Start taking self-defense classes. These exist everywhere. There are many classes that cater to women's defense and there are many for self defense or martial arts in general.

Step #3: Carrying defensive items is the most useful thing above all. A restraining order is merely a piece of paper that does nothing to actually stop someone from attacking you. In most American jurisdictions, pepper spray devices are legal for personal protection. In some jurisdictions, tasers and stun guns are also legal for self defense, however their usefulness is limited, like knives are, to direct physical contact, and are more of a last resort if an attacker is on top of you.

Step #4: Firearms. If you feel the individual is that much of threat to your life, understand that calling the police leaves you waiting for help to arrive on an average of 10-15 minutes in most areas of the United States, in urban places, far longer. The average 9mm pistol responds at a rate of 1,200 feet per second and is definitively the #1 best way to deter an assault. The mere presence of a firearm holstered to your hip, or in your hand, will cause an attacker to flee without a shot needing to be fired. However, as a gun owner myself, you need to know what you're doing and should take some local NRA sponsored women's self defense firearms courses that are hosted nationwide if you have no experience. As well, look into your state laws regarding your right to bear arms to ensure you don't get in trouble. Some states do not require a license or permit, many others do though.

[Charlotte_periwinkle]

Coming from a country where it is not legal to obtain firearms, pepper spray or tasers, and given that a lot of people may not be willing to go to the police with this kind of situation, I offer the following advice.

1.Be smarter than the person threatening you.

2.Don't give away any personal details on the internet.

I have had people try and threaten me via email etc before. Do everything to find out about the person and gather as much personal info on them as you can. Fortunately most people like this are very stupid and not Internet savvy. Search email, trace IP address etc, you will often find that they may be married, have kids etc, in which case a simple email saying "don't fuck with me or I'll tell <insert name here>" will usually get them to back off.

If you've been compromised and they know who you are or where you live, then it's definately time to go to police.

[North323]

I'd love to see one of the emails. Would be glad to assist. I do that for a living (not stalking) but finding people on the internet.

[Falrune]

I'd guess every stalker situation is different, but I agree with kittyKaiti with respect to being armed, knowing how to use the weapon, as well as mentally prepared to use the weapon when your life is threatened. Try to be aware of your surroundings, try to have an escape route, try to be in a group, lock windows and doors, and obtain a surveillance and alarm system operating around your abode.

[giovanni_hotel]

I had a relative who worked for the Federal government who was constantly harassed by a fellow employee. Her supervisor got an FBI agent assigned to keep tabs on her harasser and built a file on him, then one day they showed up at her job and marched this moron out in handcuffs.lol


I'd keep a hard copy record of all the threatening emails etc. and talk to the Human resources person where you work for advice.

In most workplace environments harassment of any kind from another employee is not tolerated and is grounds for immediate dismissal.

If this crap is going on outside the office, I'd arm myself with at least mace and inform the police about your situation.

[steviedresses]

If you get a gun. Practice, practice, practice.... A lot. All the time. A gun does no good if it is not a part of you. It needs to be a extension of your very being. If you get a gun and shoot twice a year you are almost guaranteed to 'freeze' when the time comes.

A friend of mine is a competitive shooter. They simulate real world situations where they go threw a target area and have to shoot 'bad' guys and save the good guys. He said he shot every week for about three years.

Self defense classes are crap, unless you practice, practice, practice. A lot, for a long time. If your going to learn to fight, take a martial art, and make sure you actually fight. Put on the gear and FIGHT!

If the fucker ever breaks into your house... shoot the fucker. Too kill. Do not hesitate. For some stalkers it's just a game to fuck with you. Others are truly fucked up and the end game is to kill you. Always assume the fucker wants to kill you.

I hate to say this but the best defense is a good offense. So if you can find out who the fucker is... get a couple of 'bears' to fuck him up some... and let him know that you know who he is. Many stalkers are actually cowards, that's why the fuck with people behind their backs.

I hate fucking stalkers.

[yodajazz]

I'm not here to tell you what to do. That is, with the exception of telling you to think deeply about what is best to you. I think gun ownership is over sold as a solution to protection vs the risks self harm, accidents, and misused by others of your own weapon. I am not trans, but I know that most do feel depressive feelings at one time or the other, due to the negative perceptions of others, discrimination, as well as other reasons. Statistics show that more people commit suicide with the weapons they own, than are called on to defend themselves with it. I don't need to know, but ask yourself, have you ever had feelings that things are hopeless, even for a minute? How have you handled relationship break-ups in the past? All it takes is 1-2 minutes for gun owners to be able to follow through, with a suicide impulse. Do you have children who come to your home?

I have had some mental health education. Putting myself in place of a stalker, it would seem to me that one would prefer close contact, if they want to attempt harm. If so, pepper spray, or a knife could be very effective. Consider this, a person sending threats, may not attempt to follow through. Their kick is feeling powerful, by making someone else feel fear. I am not saying not to do anything. I'm only saying consider your options deeply. Professional law enforcement could give you greater insight. I wish you the best, and support whatever decision you make. Good luck!

Statistics: US 2009 suicides 36,909, murders 13,606. Of the homicides 71% were with guns.

[johnlinzer]

If you're not suicidal, firearms are best. There's some crazy fuckers out there.

[Captain Ahab]

You might want to read through these two AMAs (Ask Me Anything) done on Reddit from a woman who had a cyberstalker, how she dealt with, and eventually caught her.

AMA #1 I got my anonymous cyberstalker of 1.5 years arrested for harassing me and threatening to shoot up the college where I teach. AMA! (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1hkeok/i_got_my_anonymous_cyberstalker_of_15_years/)

AMA #2 UPDATE: I got my anonymous cyberstalker of 1.5 years arrested for harassing me and threatening to shoot up the college where I teach. AMA! (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1zgfdm/update_i_got_my_anonymous_cyberstalker_of_15/)

[kittyKaiti]

Statistics: US 2009 suicides 36,909, murders 13,606. Of the homicides 71% were with guns.

And 80% of the gun homicides were gangbangers killing gangbangers in the ghetto.

>Momentary instances of depression vs. suicidal behavior.

I have been depressed over events that took place in my life. I have cried. All the time with a gun on my hip. I never once thought of using it. Being sad over something is not the same as a person with a serious psychotic issue.



Statistics show that more people commit suicide with the weapons they own, than are called on to defend themselves with it.

False. Approximately 19,000 people kill themselves with firearms. Firearms are also attributed to being used to some degree in acts of self defense an estimated 2 million times annually. Self defense with a gun can range from brandishing it to scare off an attacker all the way up to shooting and killing an attacker.

Statistics also show that the presence of a firearm during the right time and right place (private ownership and or concealed carry) saves 350,000 lives annually (where victims feared imminent harm would come had the attacker not been stopped).

[giovanni_hotel]

Statistics also show that the presence of a firearm during the right time and right place (private ownership and or concealed carry) saves 350,000 lives annually (where victims feared imminent harm would come had the attacker not been stopped).

There's no CDC or FBI stat for this, Kitti.

Where'd you get this from, the NRA???

[nysprod]

Folks, G lives in NYC, she won't be getting a carry permit for something concealable any time soon...

[Michelle Firestone]

call up guido & tell him somebody wants to be shorter

why did so many ppl downvote that? I'm joking but serious too. Escorting w/o people who can watch out for you is fucking bad. If G doesn't have anyone, she needs a dog. And if she can't have a dog in NYC apt, she needs to tell her neighbors/landlord that someone has been harassing/stalking/threatening her and ask them to keep their eyes open for anyone suspicious. You always gotta have people watching out for you.

[giovanni_hotel]

If the stalker is escorting related, that's different.
Is this person showing up where she lives unannounced??

A lot of women I know have either mace or a small taser in hand when they're out alone at night. Don't know the legality of a taser in NYC.

I'm really out of my depth on how escorts deal with problem clients.

[Dino Velvet]

I like the idea of a dog too. A dog that's protective can be an asset but one that's aggressive can be a liability. Research what breed is best for you and take an active part in the training. I had Akitas and used to work until 3AM. I knew when I came from work there would never be a problem. My girlfriend didn't even bother to lock the door. They were great dogs who also didn't bark excessively aggravating the other apartment people.

I had a girlfriend before her who went to USC which isn't located in the best part of town. I suggested she get a .38 Special. What I learned is that a gun is useless in the hands of someone not willing to defend themselves with it. The phone was the best solution for her. If a gun is your best option then choose that but remember your life changes forever too after you pull the trigger.

Who is crazy enough to challenge that?

[giovanni_hotel]

LOL. Akitas look like bear cubs with pointy ears. I'm still crossing the street if I see you walking your dog, Dino. No offense. ;)

I still have vivid memories as a kid being chased by a neighbor's doberman, not to attack me but because he likes seeing my scared ass run!!

[Dino Velvet]

LOL. Akitas look like bear cubs with pointy ears. I'm still crossing the street if I see you walking your dog, Dino. No offense. ;)

I still have vivid memories as a kid being chased by a neighbor's doberman, not to attack me but because he likes seeing my scared ass run!!

He was a very nice dog. His only sin was being 125lbs and having a Pokerface. I'd demonstrate to my timid neighbors how tame he was by sticking my hand in his mouth and grabbing him by his lower jaw with zero concern. I trained the beast so I trust the animal. He never bit anyone because he never had to. He loved little kitties and never put even a bruise on a toddler or elderly person.

The dog in the picture was not mine but pretty darn close as I had a big Black Brindle also.

[AsianG]

Thank you everyone for the responds, I didn't know that this thread turned into Gun Control topic LOL. Base from the threat I got it seem like someone who knows me, I live in NYC with strict gun control and I don't think I want to own one, I will reach out to LGBT organization this week and bring all the stuff I need I'm sure they will be able to help me out. I can't let this cyber bully and harassment continue. For now I will ignore those threat but at least I let everyone close to me knows so they are aware of it. I will keep it positive and hope it turn out ok for me, there are so many things going on in my life that make me happy, this bully cannot bring me down, life is too precious to be wasted. I will not let this coward to control my life.

A Man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life.

[Stavros]

Thank you everyone for the responds, I didn't know that this thread turned into Gun Control topic LOL. Base from the threat I got it seem like someone who knows me, I live in NYC with strict gun control and I don't think I want to own one, I will reach out to LGBT organization this week and bring all the stuff I need I'm sure they will be able to help me out. I can't let this cyber bully and harassment continue. For now I will ignore those threat but at least I let everyone close to me knows so they are aware of it. I will keep it positive and hope it turn out ok for me, there are so many things going on in my life that make me happy, this bully cannot bring me down, life is too precious to be wasted. I will not let this coward to control my life.

A Man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life.

Stalking is illegal in the USA, so the law is on your side. You don't need a gun, a howitzer or a hungry lion, but you do need legal advice which you can get in New York through places like this:
http://nylag.org/units/lgbt-law-project

The law:
https://www.safehorizon.org/index/get-help-8/stalking-36/new-york-state-stalking-laws-5.html

[Dino Velvet]

Clobberhead saves his owner's life smelling gas fumes. Good boy and trusted family member.

Get a dog. Gain a friend. Save an innocent life. He might save yours too.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/clobberhead-the-dog-uses-nose-to-save-the-day-154750054.html?vp=1
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/xDp1IFArAcv0BDbnQPMoOg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYwMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/video/video.tribune.com/WXIN-vid468525-in0-out2792-1eee951f-533094a8-LargeImage.jpg

[AsianG]

I can't have dog, only cats which i love.

[giovanni_hotel]

There's no better alarm system late at night than a dog which can be the perfect head's up to prevent a surprise violent confrontation.

[Tina Francis]

AsianG, I miss your old Flickr stream. Glad to see you are well.

[kittyKaiti]

There's no CDC or FBI stat for this, Kitti.

Where'd you get this from, the NRA???

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6853&context=jclc

[maaarc]

I can't have dog, only cats which i love.

How about a pet Bob Cat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPFOP0TM24

[Dino Velvet]

I can't have dog, only cats which i love.

If the stalker is allergic to bullets then maybe that then. He could probably use a shower anyway.

http://www.operatorchan.org/meet/src/138393390228.gif

[yodajazz]

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6853&context=jclc

Thanks for the link, I'll read it more in depth, later. But I think those victims, include, those who would have been bored to death by Jehovah Witnesses at their door, if they had not brandished a weapon.

[thombergeron]

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6853&context=jclc

In the 20 years since Kleck and Gertz published that paper, its results and methodology have been entirely dismantled, notably by Harvard's David Hemenway. It is no longer considered serious scholarship by anyone outside of the gun lobby.

In 2000, Hemenway published a paper that attempted to replicate Kleck's findings using more rigorous methodology and found that most respondents who reported using a firearm in self-defense were actually using it to intimidate others: http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/6/4/263.abstract

This review by Stroebe, piblished a few months ago, compiles some of the most recent findings on the relationship between firearm ownership and risk of death: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.avb.2013.07.025

The bottom line is that Kaiti's choice puts her at higher risk of being killed or injured by a firearm than AsianG. It's simply an empirical fact. Best wishes for the health and safety of you both.

[kittyKaiti]

In the 20 years since Kleck and Gertz published that paper, its results and methodology have been entirely dismantled, notably by Harvard's David Hemenway. It is no longer considered serious scholarship by anyone outside of the gun lobby.

In 2000, Hemenway published a paper that attempted to replicate Kleck's findings using more rigorous methodology and found that most respondents who reported using a firearm in self-defense were actually using it to intimidate others: http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/6/4/263.abstract

This review by Stroebe, piblished a few months ago, compiles some of the most recent findings on the relationship between firearm ownership and risk of death: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.avb.2013.07.025

The bottom line is that Kaiti's choice puts her at higher risk of being killed or injured by a firearm than AsianG. It's simply an empirical fact. Best wishes for the health and safety of you both.

I have to pay money to read one of the links and the other link is dead. Nice try.

As for Hemenway... anyone who would make such a quote like below is obviously heavily biased and therefore his "research" is questionable.

David Hemenway: "Instead of it being the mark of a real man that you can shoot somebody at 50 feet and kill them with a gun, the mark of a real man is that you would never do anything like that. . . . The gun is a great equalizer because it makes wimps as dangerous as people who really have skill and bravery and so I’d like to have this notion that anyone using a gun is a wuss. They aren't anybody to be looked up to. They’re somebody to look down at because they couldn't defend themselves or couldn't protect others without using a gun."

[trish]

Just a few keystrokes and you don't have to pay.

The Hemenway study is here -> http://www.crema-research.ch/abstracts/2014-07.htm

and the Stroebe study is here -> http://www.crema-research.ch/papers/2014-07.pdf

Now, can you get me a free gun, free ammo and some free shooting lessons?

[thombergeron]

I have to pay money to read one of the links and the other link is dead. Nice try.

As for Hemenway... anyone who would make such a quote like below is obviously heavily biased and therefore his "research" is questionable.

David Hemenway: "Instead of it being the mark of a real man that you can shoot somebody at 50 feet and kill them with a gun, the mark of a real man is that you would never do anything like that. . . . The gun is a great equalizer because it makes wimps as dangerous as people who really have skill and bravery and so I’d like to have this notion that anyone using a gun is a wuss. They aren't anybody to be looked up to. They’re somebody to look down at because they couldn't defend themselves or couldn't protect others without using a gun."

Sorry about the links, but I'm at a university and I sometimes forget that I have easier access to scholarly work than most. Thanks to Trish for digging out better access.

With all due respect, Kaiti, everyone is biased. I'm biased, you're biased, Gary Kleck is definitely biased, and yes, David Hemenway also brings a bias to his work.

The trick is to disclose our conflicts and biases so that readers can evaluate our work within the proper context.

David Hemenway is a professor of public health specializing in injury prevention. His bias is toward reducing the public health burden of gun violence. So his bias has led him to focus his research on illuminating the full extent of that burden.

The gun lobby, which certainly referred you to Kleck's paper, has a bias toward selling more firearms. I hope you had a chance to witness NRA president Wayne LaPierre's address to CPAC a couple of weeks ago. He started with dire warnings of the terrorists, rapists, and murderers standing right outside your door, despite the fact that violent crime in the U.S. has declined significantly over the past 20 years. But if you're frightened, you could always just buy another firearm from LaPierre's clients.

It's disheartening that you would dismiss robust scientific results simply because you disagree with them, while at the same time touting the results of a 20-year-old study that has since been empirically disproven. And not only disproven by Hemenway, but also by Phillip Cook, David Webster, Jens Ludwig, and others. It is also notable that Gary Kleck has never responded substantively to any of these critiques, choosing instead, like you, simply to accuse his fellow investigators of "bias."

But bias or no, facts are facts, and it is simply a fact that you have put yourself at risk by bringing a firearm into your home.

[pstratton531]

Thank you everyone for the responds, I didn't know that this thread turned into Gun Control topic LOL. Base from the threat I got it seem like someone who knows me, I live in NYC with strict gun control and I don't think I want to own one, I will reach out to LGBT organization this week and bring all the stuff I need I'm sure they will be able to help me out. I can't let this cyber bully and harassment continue. For now I will ignore those threat but at least I let everyone close to me knows so they are aware of it. I will keep it positive and hope it turn out ok for me, there are so many things going on in my life that make me happy, this bully cannot bring me down, life is too precious to be wasted. I will not let this coward to control my life.

A Man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life.


Hello everyone. I have concern with my safety. Have any of you been dealing with people who constantly send you threatening messages thru email? How do you guys deal with it?

I went to LGBT place in NYC and they gave me a list of organizations I can contact. I'd like some more advice from anyone in here who have been through the similar situation. Thank you in advance.

xxxx

Asian Gee

Sorry to hear this happening to you AsianG. :( I got threats once- going to file a fake police report on me, going to call my job, watching where I live. All bogus. I started feeling paranoid but it was my imagination. I ignored it and it went away. 2 months ago the person who did it it calls me and fesses up (ex gf). I had blocked her phone for months because she was constantly calling me even though I wasn't calling her back. But then I finally unblocked her # to see if she'd still call me-- nothing for weeks. Then she called me! When I saw the caller-id it was scary, but I'm glad I answered the call. That solved pretty much everything. It taught me that communication is more important than silence and that I shouldn't have shut her out like slamming a door. It made me really realize the difference that talking with one another was better than guessing about one another. We're friends now, and maybe we'll be more than that someday. What kind of threats are you getting? Does the person making the threats know where you live? Did they show up at your place? Maybe it's a jealous girl and her friends-- jealous of your beauty. Please stay safe. The world needs more sweet people like you in it.

[nysprod]

Sorry to hear this happening to you AsianG. :( I got threats once- going to file a fake police report on me, going to call my job, watching where I live. All bogus. I started feeling paranoid but it was my imagination. I ignored it and it went away. 2 months ago the person who did it it calls me and fesses up (ex gf). I had blocked her phone for months because she was constantly calling me even though I wasn't calling her back. But then I finally unblocked her # to see if she'd still call me-- nothing for weeks. Then she called me! When I saw the caller-id it was scary, but I'm glad I answered the call. That solved pretty much everything. It taught me that communication is more important than silence and that I shouldn't have shut her out like slamming a door. It made me really realize the difference that talking with one another was better than guessing about one another. We're friends now, and maybe we'll be more than that someday. What kind of threats are you getting? Does the person making the threats know where you live? Did they show up at your place? Maybe it's a jealous girl and her friends-- jealous of your beauty. Please stay safe. The world needs more sweet people like you in it.

97% this is utter bullshit...and if it isn't, either the judgement exercised in hoping an ex gf stalker becomes a gf again is seriously deficient, or you're hopelessly desperate.

[Ciffer]

Sorry to hear this happening to you AsianG. :( I got threats once- going to file a fake police report on me, going to call my job, watching where I live. All bogus. I started feeling paranoid but it was my imagination. I ignored it and it went away. 2 months ago the person who did it it calls me and fesses up (ex gf). I had blocked her phone for months because she was constantly calling me even though I wasn't calling her back. But then I finally unblocked her # to see if she'd still call me-- nothing for weeks. Then she called me! When I saw the caller-id it was scary, but I'm glad I answered the call. That solved pretty much everything. It taught me that communication is more important than silence and that I shouldn't have shut her out like slamming a door. It made me really realize the difference that talking with one another was better than guessing about one another. We're friends now, and maybe we'll be more than that someday. What kind of threats are you getting? Does the person making the threats know where you live? Did they show up at your place? Maybe it's a jealous girl and her friends-- jealous of your beauty. Please stay safe. The world needs more sweet people like you in it.

Pstratton, can I suggest your next screen name? Cellophane......yes you are that transparent. Pathetic........well yeah, you are. Getalife........ etc. Honestly the world needs less people like you in it! Grow up and stop this childish crap already.

[Jackal]

I had a relative who worked for the Federal government who was constantly harassed by a fellow employee. Her supervisor got an FBI agent assigned to keep tabs on her harasser and built a file on him, then one day they showed up at her job and marched this moron out in handcuffs.lol


I'd keep a hard copy record of all the threatening emails etc. and talk to the Human resources person where you work for advice.

In most workplace environments harassment of any kind from another employee is not tolerated and is grounds for immediate dismissal.

If this crap is going on outside the office, I'd arm myself with at least mace and inform the police about your situation.


Great advice. Gee, if you have any friends or relatives or people you trust in law enforcement, seek their advice. They might know someone or know someone who knows someone who can help you directly. I am sorry to hear you are going through this and I hope it ends.

[pstratton531]

Pstratton, can I suggest your next screen name? Cellophane......yes you are that transparent. Pathetic........well yeah, you are. Getalife........ etc. Honestly the world needs less people like you in it! Grow up and stop this childish crap already.

Man, you've got anger issues. I'm trying to help this girl, and you're giving me this crap. The hell with you. I wasn't addressing you anyway, so stay out of my conversation, jerkoff.

[pstratton531]

97% this is utter bullshit...and if it isn't, either the judgement exercised in hoping an ex gf stalker becomes a gf again is seriously deficient, or you're hopelessly desperate.

Why are you attacking and insulting me? I disagree with your opinion. The ex gf's attitude changed a lot after I kicked her out of my life. She's TS and she was listening to her TS friends who were telling lies about me. She realized that she was trying to control me and they were influencing her decisions. So she stopped trying to control me. I've got no hopes of an ex gf stalker becoming a gf again- my judgement isn't deficient and I'm definitely not desparate. I see it for what it is. The communication we finally had got rid of my fear and uncertainty and helped me understand what was driving her. People build other people into monsters sometimes based upon fear of the unknown. Sometimes it's just misunderstandings that can be corrected by honest talking to one another (on a phone though, just in case). I'm keeping things to the phone with my ex for now. Maybe in a month, I'll agree to meet with her in a public place.

[Ciffer]

Man, you've got anger issues. I'm trying to help this girl, and you're giving me this crap. The hell with you. I wasn't addressing you anyway, so stay out of my conversation, jerkoff.
You see that's just it. When you post on a forum like this it's no longer "your conversation" it becomes "our conversation". "Your conversation" could occur in a private message with Gee thereby avoiding anyone's right to exercise their freedom of speech. Unfortunately by doing so no one but Gee will ever see what a fabulous person you are. Your fragile ego has such a voracious appetite.

[pstratton531]

Just a few keystrokes and you don't have to pay.

The Hemenway study is here -> http://www.crema-research.ch/abstracts/2014-07.htm

and the Stroebe study is here -> http://www.crema-research.ch/papers/2014-07.pdf

Now, can you get me a free gun, free ammo and some free shooting lessons?

Guns are bad, period. They take a lot of the "personal nature" out of killing someone. It's easier to shoot someone from a distance than it is to knife someone in the throat. Only law enforcement and the military should have guns. Sorry if I disagree with the constitutional right to bear arms, but I do.

[pstratton531]

You see that's just it. When you post on a forum like this it's no longer "your conversation" it becomes "our conversation". "Your conversation" could occur in a private message with Gee thereby avoiding anyone's right to exercise their freedom of speech. Unfortunately by doing so no one but Gee will ever see what a fabulous person you are. Your fragile ego has such a voracious appetite.

I never used private messages here yet. I didn't realize there was an app for that here. "Your fragile ego has such a voracious appetite." Your fancy talk doesn't impress me. Is it impossible for you to write anything to me here that isn't demeaning to me? I don't know how angry and spiteful can you get in spitting your hate here. I hope you don't know AsianG personally, because it's angry creeps like you that stir up drama, which is the last thing she should get.

[nysprod]

Why are you attacking and insulting me? I disagree with your opinion. The ex gf's attitude changed a lot after I kicked her out of my life. She's TS and she was listening to her TS friends who were telling lies about me. She realized that she was trying to control me and they were influencing her decisions. So she stopped trying to control me. I've got no hopes of an ex gf stalker becoming a gf again- my judgement isn't deficient and I'm definitely not desparate. I see it for what it is. The communication we finally had got rid of my fear and uncertainty and helped me understand what was driving her. People build other people into monsters sometimes based upon fear of the unknown. Sometimes it's just misunderstandings that can be corrected by honest talking to one another (on a phone though, just in case). I'm keeping things to the phone with my ex for now. Maybe in a month, I'll agree to meet with her in a public place.

Why don't we just stop the bullshit...you join and within 2-3 posts your tracking this girl to Detroit and giving opinions all the way from "Paris" that's just too weird.

#TSStalker #NoCoincidence

[kittyKaiti]

Guns are bad, period. They take a lot of the "personal nature" out of killing someone. It's easier to shoot someone from a distance than it is to knife someone in the throat. Only law enforcement and the military should have guns. Sorry if I disagree with the constitutional right to bear arms, but I do.

What... I wasn't aware that saving your life from a murder or a rape had to be some sort of glorious honorable duel to the death.

[Ciffer]

I never used private messages here yet. I didn't realize there was an app for that here. "Your fragile ego has such a voracious appetite." Your fancy talk doesn't impress me. Is it impossible for you to write anything to me here that isn't demeaning to me? I don't know how angry and spiteful can you get in spitting your hate here. I hope you don't know AsianG personally, because it's angry creeps like you that stir up drama, which is the last thing she should get.


LOL you are hilarious. Let's see.......quick review of pstratton531 posts reveal that you have figured out how to:
1. attach pictures
2. paste links
3. choose icons
4. know the comings and goings of Gee in the USA from your remote location in Paris, France while preparing to visit London as you send well wishes to Apple in the Philippines
5. throw in poor diction when it suites your MO
6. assume to know what another person needs

And you have not figured out how to send a private message?

[kittyKaiti]

But bias or no, facts are facts, and it is simply a fact that you have put yourself at risk by bringing a firearm into your home.

I will give you that. It is an undeniable fact that having a gun in one's home increases one's risk of injury or death. However, such a factoid is completely redundant when it comes to an issue over people being killed by objects they own.

According to the CDC:

-Approx. 3,500 Americans drown in pools and bathtubs annually.
-Approx. 33,500 Americans killed by motor vehicles annually.
-Approx. 200-250 Americans die in fires due to fireplaces or portable heaters annually.
-Approx. 100 Americans die from CO poisoning due to faulty gas utilities annually.
-Approx. 1,800 Americans die from knife/sharp object stabbings annually.
-Approx. 700 Americans die from falling off a ladder annually.

Essentially, anything even remotely dangerous is automatically now a potential hazard if it is in your home or place of work. Using a gas stove instead of an electric one or having a fire place increases your chances of burning alive in a house fire. Every time you drive to work, you are now at increased risk of dying in a car accident. Getting a boob job? Now you're at increased risk of dying from medical complications. Own a swimming pool? You are now at higher risk for drowning. Taking a shower? You could slip and fall and die.

When it comes down to firearm related accidents (which would fall under the having a gun in your house increasing your risk of harm statistic), it is solely a Darwin Award issue. Stupid people always do stupid things and get themselves hurt or killed. Not using proper firearm safety can result in injury or death. As would someone blow drying their hair whilst taking a shower. Stupidity cannot be stopped nor prevented. Idiots find ways to hurt themselves.

With guns, it boils down to the golden rule of firearms safety. Never point the gun at anything or anyone you do not intend to shoot. That applies to any and all situations, whether the gun is loaded or not, on safe or off safe, or even disassembled or not.

[trish]

It's a matter of cost/ benefit. The benefits afforded by kitchen knives, cars, ladders and bathtubs enormously outweigh the probability of being killed by said items. Not so for firearms.

The benefit of firearm ownership (unless you're a hunter or sportsman) is nil compared to the risk. The probability that you're going to successfully use that gun in self-defense is virtually non-existent in comparison to the risk that you or someone you love will be killed with that firearm.

It's better to buy a security blanket. The chances of smothering yourself are pretty low, but (just like a gun) the false sense of security it can provide is priceless.

[kittyKaiti]

It's a matter of cost/ benefit. The benefits afforded by kitchen knives, cars, ladders and bathtubs enormously outweigh the probability of being killed by said items. Not so for firearms.

The benefit of firearm ownership (unless you're a hunter or sportsman) is nil compared to the risk. The probability that you're going to successfully use that gun in self-defense is virtually non-existent in comparison to the risk that you or someone you love will be killed with that firearm.

It's better to buy a security blanket. The chances of smothering yourself are pretty low, but (just like a gun) the false sense of security it can provide is priceless.

Even in the lowest figures that anti-gunners are willing to admit, claim that twice as many people use guns to defend themselves from crimes than are killed by them. Unfortunately, until the FBI maintains any official self defense statistics on a scale that it does with crime statistics, there is no way of really knowing how many times per year firearms are used in self defense. The most biased anti-gun reports claim defensive gun uses are as low as 60,000 times per year and the most extremely high up to 2.5 million times per year. Studies between different scholars are constantly varying, but even in the lowest statistics, 60,000 lives saved vs. 32,000 lives lost annually, is still proof that gun ownership is saving more people than is killing. I would consider a woman killing someone with a gun, who is trying to rape her, an enormous benefit to gun ownership.

If a person learns how to properly handle, care for and use a firearm, the risk of injury or death is negligible. That goes for anything people use that is potentially harmful.

If it comes down to the costs vs. benefits of an item, I'd say most people have their priorities wrong. While alcohol can be safe to use, by responsible people, idiots misuse alcohol at ever increasing rates. 88,000 people die annually in the U.S. from alcohol misuse. Nearly four million Americans visit the emergency room or require medical treatment due to alcohol related problems each year as well. However, we don't have a nation up in arms about 3 times as many people dying and millions of hospital visits because of alcohol compared to firearms. Tobacco use is far worse, with no real benefits at all, causing over 450,000 smokers to die annually in the U.S. and another 50,000 second-hand smoke exposed persons to die from cigarette smoke health problems, often including children who have parents who smoke. With 500,000 dead per year and millions more suffering from health problems including cancer and asthma, you would think that we would seek the prohibition of tobacco, just as people are seeking the prohibition of firearms. Even the CDC admits more than 10 times as many U.S. citizens have died prematurely from cigarette smoking than have died in all the wars fought by the United States during its history.

Second-hand smoke alone kills more non-smoking Americans annually than all U.S. gun deaths annually combined. That includes an average of 1,000 infants per year exposed to parents who smoke... The equivalent of 1,000 infants shot dead by their parents. But no tears are shed by those seeking to ban guns.

[trish]

So let me get this straight. Your argument is two-fold:

One, the death rate from firearms is less than the death rate from alchohol abuse;
Two, and people complain more about guns thans alcohol abuse.
Therefore, you should own a gun and carry it with you.

Okay. I’ll buy that :)


Unfortunately, until the FBI maintains any official self defense statistics on a scale that it does with crime statistics, there is no way of really knowing how many times per year firearms are used in self defense. Funny, due to the pressure of the NRA lobby Congress has prohibited the CDC from investigating the safety of firearms. Would you support lifting that ban?


If a person learns how to properly handle, care for and use a firearm, the risk of injury or death is negligible. You can say it, but it’s not so. On a daily basis gun safety instructors and police officers have accidents on the firing range. But if the risks of gun ownership only applied to persons who owned, there would be no problem. But the risks are also taken by others who live in or visit the household in which a firearm is kept. Not only is there a risk of accident but a risk of deliberate use. Sure, you’re not hot headed or suicidally depressed. Is that true of everyone who lives in or might visit your home?


Nearly four million Americans visit the emergency room or require medical treatment due to alcohol related problems each year as well. However, we don't have a nation up in arms... Sure we do. We have Mothers Against Drunk Driving, we have S.A.D.D, etc. Protestant church goers hear about the evils of alcohol preached at them every Sunday. We also have laws and regulations on alcohol consumption. What we don’t have is polarization on the issue of alcohol because there’s no lobby pressuring us to drop what restrictions we have. There’s no national organization telling us that the right to drink is protected by the Constitution with a mascot declaring, “You can have my bottle when you pry it from my cold dead hands.”
Ditto for Tobacco. If you haven’t heard the cry of arms against second hand smoke you haven’t been listening. That’s why you can no longer smoke on an airliner. That’s why restaurants that allow smoking only allow it in the area designated for smoking and why many restaurants just don’t allow smoking at all. The tobacco lobby is strong, but not strong enough to prevent the government from putting warning labels on their product.

The day of alcohol prohibition is over. The prohibition against marijuana is very slowly but almost certainly waning. No one coming after your bottle. No one’s coming after your cigarettes and no one is coming after your guns. Personally I think the post-modern interpretation of Second Amendment protection extends to ownership of bio-weapons. You can have my vial of anthrax when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

[Ciffer]

Trisha & Kitty with all due respect, this has what to do with "How do you deal with a stalker". Lol

[kittyKaiti]

So let me get this straight. Your argument is two-fold:

One, the death rate from firearms is less than the death rate from alchohol abuse;
Two, and people complain more about guns thans alcohol abuse.
Therefore, you should own a gun and carry it with you.

Okay. I’ll buy that :)

Funny, due to the pressure of the NRA lobby Congress has prohibited the CDC from investigating the safety of firearms. Would you support lifting that ban?

You can say it, but it’s not so. On a daily basis gun safety instructors and police officers have accidents on the firing range. But if the risks of gun ownership only applied to persons who owned, there would be no problem. But the risks are also taken by others who live in or visit the household in which a firearm is kept. Not only is there a risk of accident but a risk of deliberate use. Sure, you’re not hot headed or suicidally depressed. Is that true of everyone who lives in or might visit your home?

Sure we do. We have Mothers Against Drunk Driving, we have S.A.D.D, etc. Protestant church goers hear about the evils of alcohol preached at them every Sunday. We also have laws and regulations on alcohol consumption. What we don’t have is polarization on the issue of alcohol because there’s no lobby pressuring us to drop what restrictions we have. There’s no national organization telling us that the right to drink is protected by the Constitution with a mascot declaring, “You can have my bottle when you pry it from my cold dead hands.”
Ditto for Tobacco. If you haven’t heard the cry of arms against second hand smoke you haven’t been listening. That’s why you can no longer smoke on an airliner. That’s why restaurants that allow smoking only allow it in the area designated for smoking and why many restaurants just don’t allow smoking at all. The tobacco lobby is strong, but not strong enough to prevent the government from putting warning labels on their product.

The day of alcohol prohibition is over. The prohibition against marijuana is very slowly but almost certainly waning. No one coming after your bottle. No one’s coming after your cigarettes and no one is coming after your guns. Personally I think the post-modern interpretation of Second Amendment protection extends to ownership of bio-weapons. You can have my vial of anthrax when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Unfortunately, in the U.S., police officers lack any real firearms training and most cops today are complete fools. This would make sense, seeing the increase in rampant cold blooded police brutality across the country. The training standards are a joke, especially in most urban departments like the NYPD and LAPD.

Part of the responsibility of gun ownership includes informing others who live with you about firearm safety and if you have kids, keeping it locked away when not in use. If you plan to use a gun for self defense, even in the home, keeping it on your person in a holster at all times, or in an accessible locked container nearby (finger print lock systems or bio-scanning locks exist) ensure unauthorized access is prevented.

Because I'm a gun owner and support the 2nd Amendment, does not mean I stand beside the NRA on all of their views. The FBI should keep statistics on all forms of criminal justice issues, including self defense events.

Most people misinterpret the 2nd Amendment's wording. In the language of the day (1700's English), the 2nd Amendment protects the rights of the people to keep and bear arms of a common civilian equivalent to that of a military soldier for purposes of ensuring the security of liberty from tyrannical government. The "militia" has nothing to do with a National Guard or Army. The Army and National Guard are specified under separate sections of the Constitution. As far as I know, U.S. Marines don't receive anthrax-filled grenades as part of their standard load-out. However, a Marine has the M4 Carbine or M-16, the common civilian equivalent of which is the AR-15.



Trisha & Kitty with all due respect, this has what to do with "How do you deal with a stalker". Lol

I initially recommended to the victim of stalking that if she is in fear of her safety, what she should do. That included procuring a firearm for self defense.

[trish]

So let’s see:

“If a person learns how to properly handle, care for and use a firearm, the risk of injury or death is negligible.”

Outside of the military, the group most trained in firearm use, care and safety is the police. However, we are asked to believe that

“...police officers lack any real training...”

No, not that training! Not the training the police get! The other training! :)

It doesn’t help that some States require that citizens applying for a license to carry first take a training course offered by ...da dah duuunnn...the police!!

Any training course in proper use and care of firearms is what... a few months of lessons and some periodic reinforcement? We’re not talking about a doctorate degree. How bad can police training be?

(Or maybe we should require people who carry to have a doctorate in firearm safety and use. Whaddya think?)

Look. You don’t have to cherry pick who is and who isn’t truly, really, actually trained for really real, just to save your original claim. All you need to do retract the claim. Training helps to minimize the risks but it doesn’t reduce them to anywhere near negligible. In spite of training, people have accidents. They accidentally shoot their hunting partner in the face. Or they kill their daughter while cleaning their weapon. Sometimes, they get hot headed and shoot someone for playing their music too loud, or texting during the previews in a movie theater. Sometimes, even people with training get fearful and shoot the girl standing on their porch, knocking on their door late at night and asking for help. Even though the guns are locked away, a clever child gains access. Sometimes it’s a depressed child who commits suicide. Sometimes its an angry child. Shit happens and with guns the risks are never negligible.

I’m not saying ban them all. Yeah, in Jesus’s name, let them have a multitude lethal weapons, and let the weapons multiply even as the people wither under fire____I couldn’t find the exact Biblical reference, but I’m sure it’s there somewhere. I’m just saying, if the person, who has had no previous training, is suddenly worried about stalker, for God’s sake they shouldn’t be advised to carry a firearm. Now is not the time. Carry a can of mace, if you must. Carry two. Carry a taser. But not a gun. An accident is more likely when you’re nervous, on edge and fearful of who’s around the next corner. Lot’s of people have been giving good advice. I don’t have anything to add except: don’t start carrying a gun.

[giovanni_hotel]

Not to further 'jack this thread but when has a gun ever been used to prevent a rape??

Unless you can read a rapist's mind or a would be rapist announces his intentions, the only way you know someone is about to rape you is DURING the rape.

At which point owning a gun is pretty useless.

[kittyKaiti]

Not to further 'jack this thread but when has a gun ever been used to prevent a rape??

Unless you can read a rapist's mind or a would be rapist announces his intentions, the only way you know someone is about to rape you is DURING the rape.

At which point owning a gun is pretty useless.

That is a multitude of ignorant statements. There are untold amounts of news reports of gun owners warding off attacks, including women warding off attacks by suspicious men by using firearms.

One noted instance was an 18 year old mother and her infant child were home alone when two drunken men proceeded to try and smash down the door to her home. Despite being on the phone with 911 and help on way (eta 20 minutes out), she retrieved her shotgun and warned she would shoot them if they broke through the door, which they did. She opened fire, if I recall correctly, killing one of them and the other fled. Had she been unarmed, one can only begin to imagine what these two men would have done to her and her infant.

In my own experience: While living in Las Vegas, most local convenience stores and pharmacies tended to have groups of drug dealers, drunks or meth-heads loitering about. Any woman walking by would be sexually harassed and cat called. Getting gas or picking up meds from the pharmacy, especially after nightfall, is risky for a lone woman. However, with my Glock 9mm openly in view of the public, holstered on my hip, I felt safe every time a group attempted to approach me and then turned right the hell around and left upon seeing my gun. I even laughed when they yelled out to their homies "she got a gun yo!" and the loiterers all clear out. Has the deterring effect of having a gun prevented any possible incidents? Maybe. Muggings, robberies, who knows. All I cared about is that I was able to feel safe going to the store, being able to walk passed a group of drunken dealers and not get messed with.

As for your last comment regarding "having a gun is useless if you are being raped" is like saying having mace or a knife or a taser or anything is useless. Having a gun functions on multiple levels. One, like in my experiences, is the deterrent effect. A criminal does not want to die trying to do something. They will seek out someone unarmed. For someone carrying concealed, once someone is trying to force themselves upon you, simply drawing the gun from a concealed holster and firing into them point blank will also end the confrontation.

[thombergeron]

In my own experience: While living in Las Vegas, most local convenience stores and pharmacies tended to have groups of drug dealers, drunks or meth-heads loitering about. Any woman walking by would be sexually harassed and cat called. Getting gas or picking up meds from the pharmacy, especially after nightfall, is risky for a lone woman. However, with my Glock 9mm openly in view of the public, holstered on my hip, I felt safe every time a group attempted to approach me and then turned right the hell around and left upon seeing my gun. I even laughed when they yelled out to their homies "she got a gun yo!" and the loiterers all clear out. Has the deterring effect of having a gun prevented any possible incidents? Maybe. Muggings, robberies, who knows. All I cared about is that I was able to feel safe going to the store, being able to walk passed a group of drunken dealers and not get messed with.

Good thing nothing bad happened to you or someone else because of your choices. Here's a story about some other folks who chose to shop while armed: http://www.azcentral.com/community/chandler/articles/20140227chandler-police-investigating-two-seperate-shootings-ten-days.html

Two simple altercations that likely would have resulted in bruises if the parties had not chosen to carry firearms while shopping. Instead, a man is in the hospital with a bullet in his face and a young woman is dead.

[kittyKaiti]

Good thing nothing bad happened to you or someone else because of your choices. Here's a story about some other folks who chose to shop while armed: http://www.azcentral.com/community/chandler/articles/20140227chandler-police-investigating-two-seperate-shootings-ten-days.html

Two simple altercations that likely would have resulted in bruises if the parties had not chosen to carry firearms while shopping. Instead, a man is in the hospital with a bullet in his face and a young woman is dead.

Two immature guys get in an argument, proceed to beat on each other and then the loser pulls his gun and shoots the other. This is somehow related to my carrying of a gun to protect myself from rapists or muggers, how? Pulling a gun on someone over a retarded argument is never validated. I've been in screaming matches with my ex-boyfriend while armed at the hip and never pulled a gun on him. Stupid people do stupid shit. If you are a responsible person, things like that news article won't happen.

[thombergeron]

Two immature guys get in an argument, proceed to beat on each other and then the loser pulls his gun and shoots the other. This is somehow related to my carrying of a gun to protect myself from rapists or muggers, how? Pulling a gun on someone over a retarded argument is never validated. I've been in screaming matches with my ex-boyfriend while armed at the hip and never pulled a gun on him. Stupid people do stupid shit. If you are a responsible person, things like that news article won't happen.

You seem to be working very hard to miss the point.

Two immature guys will always get into an argument, because that's what immature guys do. In Chandler, AZ, in 2014, where everyone, including these immature guys, is armed, then someone is likely to die or be severely injured when immature guys do what they're going to do.

In, say, Manchester, where they also have lots of immature guys who get into arguments, the same encounter would more likely result in a black eye, but nobody is dead or permanently disabled.

Gun nuts are fond of claiming that an armed society is a polite society. Not only does this anecdote illustrate the folly of such thinking, it makes clear that public weapon-carrying increases the lethality of these otherwise mundane encounters.

It's also a handy way of undermining this weird argument:


Studies between different scholars are constantly varying, but even in the lowest statistics, 60,000 lives saved vs. 32,000 lives lost annually, is still proof that gun ownership is saving more people than is killing.

In most studies of defensive gun use, and definitely in Gary Kleck's and John Lott's work, both of these encounters would be coded as defensive gun uses (DGUs). And yet, no lives were saved. On the contrary, one person was killed and another hospitalized. It is likely that these DGUs were illegal.

So translating 60,000 (or whatever -- nobody really knows how many DGUs there are each year) self-defensive gun uses per year into "60,000 lives saved" is obviously an invalid and illogical conclusion.

You may have an ideological preference for widespread and unregulated gun ownership, but the data is not on your side.

[broncofan]

Firearms are also attributed to being used to some degree in acts of self defense an estimated 2 million times annually. .
:):)
I'd love to see some of the incidents included in that statistic. Guy shoots barista who put too much whipped cream on his frappucino. Guy shoots himself but he was his own worst enemy anyway.

[thombergeron]

Most people misinterpret the 2nd Amendment's wording. In the language of the day (1700's English), the 2nd Amendment protects the rights of the people to keep and bear arms of a common civilian equivalent to that of a military soldier for purposes of ensuring the security of liberty from tyrannical government. The "militia" has nothing to do with a National Guard or Army. The Army and National Guard are specified under separate sections of the Constitution. As far as I know, U.S. Marines don't receive anthrax-filled grenades as part of their standard load-out. However, a Marine has the M4 Carbine or M-16, the common civilian equivalent of which is the AR-15.

Sorry, one more point here. The federal courts disagree with you regarding the 2nd Amendment. That's why it is still illegal for civilians to own AR-15 rifles in many localities, including Washington DC and the state of California. You should read Antonin Scalia's opinion in the Heller case:

"It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service – M-16 rifles and the like – may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty."

[kittyKaiti]

You seem to be working very hard to miss the point.

Two immature guys will always get into an argument, because that's what immature guys do. In Chandler, AZ, in 2014, where everyone, including these immature guys, is armed, then someone is likely to die or be severely injured when immature guys do what they're going to do.

In, say, Manchester, where they also have lots of immature guys who get into arguments, the same encounter would more likely result in a black eye, but nobody is dead or permanently disabled.

Gun nuts are fond of claiming that an armed society is a polite society. Not only does this anecdote illustrate the folly of such thinking, it makes clear that public weapon-carrying increases the lethality of these otherwise mundane encounters.

It's also a handy way of undermining this weird argument:



In most studies of defensive gun use, and definitely in Gary Kleck's and John Lott's work, both of these encounters would be coded as defensive gun uses (DGUs). And yet, no lives were saved. On the contrary, one person was killed and another hospitalized. It is likely that these DGUs were illegal.

So translating 60,000 (or whatever -- nobody really knows how many DGUs there are each year) self-defensive gun uses per year into "60,000 lives saved" is obviously an invalid and illogical conclusion.

You may have an ideological preference for widespread and unregulated gun ownership, but the data is not on your side.

This would not be considered a DGU. There is no such thing as a legal or illegal DGU. It is either murder or self defense. A DGU is an act of self defense. If it's not, it is simply a murder or assault with a deadly weapon. It was two men arguing and brawling resulting in one murdering the other. This was not a self defense incident, like if one man was walking through the store and the other proceeded to randomly batter him. Use of a firearm would be self defense if that was the case, however it wasn't. This was blatantly the criminal use of a firearm.

And by "lives saved", I'm not counting dead criminals as lost lives. They don't matter. Home invaders, murderers, rapists, kidnappers, gangbangers, and the like, are criminals. The "lives saved" are the innocent, law abiding people whose lives could have been lost as a result of not using something (eg: a firearm) to defend themselves from criminal violence.

By Manchester, I'm guessing the UK? Yea, two morons brawling can't shoot each other. But, innocent people can't defend themselves with weapons at all in the UK, be it a firearm, a knife, pepper spray, taser or anything else from violent criminals. With that said, you end up with armed criminals walking around doing as they please, unchecked, and cops who are also unarmed, having to wait for an armed cop to respond to deal with a violent maniac with a knife, like this dude:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/02/26/life_without_parole_man_who_hacked_soldier_to_deat h_on_london_street.html

[kittyKaiti]

Sorry, one more point here. The federal courts disagree with you regarding the 2nd Amendment. That's why it is still illegal for civilians to own AR-15 rifles in many localities, including Washington DC and the state of California. You should read Antonin Scalia's opinion in the Heller case:

"It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service – M-16 rifles and the like – may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty."

I honestly couldn't give a poo what some Supreme Court activist judge or a politician or the President says about guns and the law. I go by what the Constitution of the United States says. And the 2nd Amendment says: "shall not be infringed". Whether our elected officials obey that or not, whether they agree with it or not, the Constitution is the highest law of the land and preempts everything. Anything outside of what the Constitution says, that is contrary to it, is an illegal unconstitutional law.

[broncofan]

I honestly couldn't give a poo what some Supreme Court activist judge or a politician or the President says about guns and the law. I go by what the Constitution of the United States says. And the 2nd Amendment says: "shall not be infringed". Whether our elected officials obey that or not, whether they agree with it or not, the Constitution is the highest law of the land and preempts everything. Anything outside of what the Constitution says, that is contrary to it, is an illegal unconstitutional law.
I think it was our 4th Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall who said that it is the role of the Judiciary to decide whether laws are Constitutional. So it doesn't matter what you or Ron Paul or Wayne LaPierre think about the Supreme Court's jurisprudence. Only that the other branches of government are bound by the precedent they set.

[broncofan]

Judicial review in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States)