The Jared Leto Question

[Stavros]

Today's Independent produces a round-up of mostly hostile comment on Jared Leto acting the role of Rayon in Dallas Buyer's Club, for which he won the Best Supporting Actor Oscar. The simple argument raised is whether or not transgendered roles ought to be played by transgendered actors -who do exist- or whether or not it matters at all. In addition there is criticism of the character as reinforcing stereotypes of transgendered people as being prostitutes, involved with drugs, etc, and that in Rayon's case Jared Leto is little more than a transvestite anyway. One also thinks it was mean of Leto not to mention the transgender 'community' in his acceptance speech.

The argument is weak on one level because any number of actors play roles they could not possibly be in real life, be it Adolf Hitler, serial killers, alcoholics, or happy people. Alec Guinness, one of the UK's most distinguished actors, performed as a man, a woman, an Indian, an Arab, a soldier, a spy -and did it all well. In Leto's case, it seems to me, the issue is, was he a reasonable example of the Dallas transgendered people whom the original Ron Woodroof would have known, and is it so far fetched to believe they made a living in the sex trade? I thought his performance was outstanding, it was not hysterical, the climax happened off-screen and I was moved by it. And in his speech -censored in Russia because of his remark about the Ukraine -did mention people who have died from AIDS or been the victims of discrimination. So, below is his acceptance speech, followed by the Independent article.

Jared Leto Oscars Speech 2014 HQ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzzHe_mEi2I)




Jared Leto’s Best Supporting Actor Oscars win sparks backlash from transgender community



The actor's award credentials came under fire from some groups who criticised his portrayal of Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club
(http://www.independent.co.uk/biography/jenn-selby)Jenn Selby Tuesday 04 March 2014


The actor, who was honoured with the Academy Award for his portrayal as Rayon – an HIV-positive transgender woman living in Texas in the 1980s – in Dallas Buyers Club, faced a backlash from some members of the transgender community.
Outraged groups questioned why a straight, male actor had been chosen for the role and why he had neglected to thank the transgender community during his acceptance speech (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/oscars-2014-jared-letos-best-supporting-actor-acceptance-speech-in-full-9164406.html?origin=internalSearch).
“I have no interest in watching a cis [non-transgender] man in drag play a trans woman ever again,” Jos Truitt of Feministing (http://feministing.com/2014/01/13/the-golden-globes-give-jared-leto-an-award-for-playing-a-trans-woman-because-hollywood-is-terrible/) wrote.
“No matter what Dallas Buyers Club (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/oscars-2014-matthew-mcconaughey-best-actor-oscars-2014-acceptance-speech-in-full-9164954.html) does as a film, the narrative around this movie, the fact that a man in drag is playing a trans woman, perpetuates the stereotype that we are men in drag.”
Some pointed out that the media coverage of the role had been far from informed:
Others protested his stereotypical treatment of the character which, Time (http://ideas.time.com/2014/02/28/dont-applaud-jared-letos-transgender-mammy/#ixzz2uu3eXbRc) writer Steve Friess claims, marks “another moment when liberals in Hollywood, both in the industry and in the media, showed how little they understood or empathized with the lives of a minority they imagine they and Leto are honoring[sic].”
“Not long from now — it surely won’t take decades, given the brisk pace of progress on matters of identity and sexuality these days — Leto’s award-winning performance as the sassy, tragic-yet-silly Rayon will belong in the dishonorable pantheon along with McDaniel’s Mammy,” he wrote, referencing Hattie McDaniel’s 1940 Best Supporting Actress win for her portrayal as Mammy in Gone with the Wind. Her award marked the first honour the Academy had ever given a black person.
Katie Glover, the founder of The Gender Society (http://gendersociety.com/) and the editor of Frock (http://frockmagazine.com/), the most widely read transgender and drag magazine in the world, explained the key points of the debate to The Independent:
"When we first heard about Dallas Buyer's Club, we were quite pleased because the character Rayon, could be one of the first transgender protagonists. Transgender people need more visibility so this is a good move. The more we are seen, the more normal we appear and the easier it will be for transgender people to fit into the world.
"However, within the transgender community there is also much controversy surrounding that character. Firstly there's the fact that she seems to reinforce the stereotypical idea that all trans people must be gay and/or sex workers and/or drug users. That has angered many trans people who have seen this movie.
"Okay, some are gay but apparently, no more than within the wider population and maybe some trans people use drugs but being transgender does not make you want to take drugs or make you gay. Don't get me wrong here - there's nothing wrong with being gay - it's just that most transgender people are not gay.
"Most non-TG people think being transgender is about sexuality but we know it's about gender identity, which is a completely different thing.
"As well as that there is some anger about the casting of Jared Leto in a transgender role. Why couldn't they have cast a real transgender actor? Some say it's akin to casting a white actor in a black role and asking him to black up for it. If that happened today, it would be deeply offensive to the black community and likewise, the use of Jared Leto as Rayon is viewed by many in much the same way.
"Having said that, I also know of many other transgender people who are very happy with Jared Leto's portrayal of Rayon, so not everybody is cross about this."
Similarly, Mara Keisling, the executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality, told the Huffington Post USA (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/jared-leto-oscar-transgender_n_4890061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular) : “Leto’s portrayal was of a particular fictional transgender person at a particular time. But we can’t forget that transgender people like Rayon did exist and do exist.
“To the film's credit, I think it accurately showed what the life of this brave person must have been and how she was treated. Our job is to make life better for transgender people like Rayon in the real world, and it really helps to have these lives told by Hollywood.”
And, as Rolling Stone reminded, he wasn’t the first actor to win an award for portraying a transgender individual:
The first was actually Hilary Swank, who won the Oscar for Best Actress in a Leading Role in 1999 for her portrayal as transman Brandon Teena in Boys Don’t Cry.
Of course, this isn’t the first time his role as Rayon has come under criticism.
The actor was heckled by two women at a Q&A session with Fandango's Dave Karger during the Santa Barbara International Film Festival’s Virtuosos Awards.
“Trans-misogyny does not deserve an award,” one of the women shouted from the audience.
Leto asked the woman what she meant by her comment. She answered: “You don't deserve to play a trans-woman.”
“Because I'm a man, I don't deserve to play that part?” he said. “So you want to hold a role against someone who happened to be gay or lesbian – they can't play a straight part?”
The woman went on to complain that “historically straight-gender people always play transgender people, and all of them received awards and credit for it.”
“Then you make sure that people that are gay, people that aren’t straight, people like the Rayons of the world, would never have the opportunity to turn the tables and explore parts of that art,” he responded.
Leto apparently met the two women backstage to continue the discussion.
The news comes after reports emerged that Leto’s acceptance speech had been censored in Russia because he mentioned the Ukraine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/jared-letos-best-supporting-actor-oscars-win-sparks-backlash-from-transgender-community-9168770.html

[Rabbiteyes]

Consider what it would have meant to the trans community / society had a trans woman won the oscar.

It would have meant a trans actresses career would be pushed forward like none other. Appearing in bigger movies, roles specifically created for that actress, and more and more trans visibility (not just in every interview she has for the movie...but every time she is seen, mentioned, constantly fighting for trans rights in the public eye).

Instead....

We have a cis straight white guy who won an oscar (given because he played a rather harmful stereotype of "poor trannies").

During interviews, he tends to ignore trans issues....even in the acceptance of the award, he ignores trans issues (the very reason he got the award).

What was the end result of the movie? A step backwards for trans acceptance and rights with the perpetuation of many harmful stereotypes. And yet, Hollywood is celebrating it...as if they have achieved something great.

[Tina Francis]

I think Stavros' points are valid. It is quite reasonable to regard the character in the context of her times, when transwomen were not nearly as accepted or as well developed physically as they are today.

[Prospero]

Time magazine weighed in the subject as well.

http://ideas.time.com/2014/02/28/dont-applaud-jared-letos-transgender-mammy/

[GroobySteven]

He's an actor. He's playing a part.

Best person for the job? Possibly - possibly not, I've yet to see it but as long as trans-women were able to audition and Jared played the role more convincingly, then it's a non-issue. This "outrage" is getting kinda boring.

[mrtrebus]

No. Transgender should ONLY do porn!

[bluesoul]

Consider what it would have meant to the trans community / society had a trans woman won the oscar.

It would have meant a trans actresses career would be pushed forward like none other. Appearing in bigger movies, roles specifically created for that actress, and more and more trans visibility (not just in every interview she has for the movie...but every time she is seen, mentioned, constantly fighting for trans rights in the public eye).

Instead....

We have a cis straight white guy who won an oscar (given because he played a rather harmful stereotype of "poor trannies").

During interviews, he tends to ignore trans issues....even in the acceptance of the award, he ignores trans issues (the very reason he got the award).

What was the end result of the movie? A step backwards for trans acceptance and rights with the perpetuation of many harmful stereotypes. And yet, Hollywood is celebrating it...as if they have achieved something great.

don't you think for these kind of issues you should expect people who are not actors to push them forward?

i mean- you're putting so much emphasis on someone who is simply an actor to do interviews and make comments about a community which he is not a part of and push their issues? would that even be right? can he honestly be the spokesperson for the trans-community?

also, i'm one of those people who doesn't believe you have to be gay to play a gay character, or straight to play one. just be a good actor because that's what it's all about: acting. if this was a documentary, then we'd have a valid topic

btw: jared leto's mom is super hot. she can be in my movie anyday :D

[Stavros]

Consider what it would have meant to the trans community / society had a trans woman won the oscar.

It would have meant a trans actresses career would be pushed forward like none other. Appearing in bigger movies, roles specifically created for that actress, and more and more trans visibility (not just in every interview she has for the movie...but every time she is seen, mentioned, constantly fighting for trans rights in the public eye).

Instead....

We have a cis straight white guy who won an oscar (given because he played a rather harmful stereotype of "poor trannies").

During interviews, he tends to ignore trans issues....even in the acceptance of the award, he ignores trans issues (the very reason he got the award).

What was the end result of the movie? A step backwards for trans acceptance and rights with the perpetuation of many harmful stereotypes. And yet, Hollywood is celebrating it...as if they have achieved something great.

I find myself agreeing with some of the sentiments of your post because I am sure there are some talented transgendered actors out there (Harmony Santana would be one example), but I disagree with your argument that Dallas Buyer's Club is a 'step backwards' for trans acceptance'. The core issue has more to do with acting in a film rather than being transgendered.

I find it hard to believe that as a result of a transexual appearing in a film as a transexual, this would 'break the mould' and that more and more films would feature transexual characters. That is probably a challenge too far for Hollywood. And surely, the mark of success for a transexual actor (using the word as gender neutral) would be that they play a role not because of their gender, but because of their ability to act, rather than "bigger movies, roles specifically created for that actress, and more and more trans visibility". This sounds to me like a ghetto in the making. Acceptance, surely, dissolves the boundaries of gender, as acceptance of black actors dissolves the boundaries of colour -?

It is now counter-factual, but in what way would a transgendered actor have played the role differently from Jared Leto? To begin with, there was a script, so I am assuming that a transgendered actor who did not want to depict Rayon as a 'stereotypical poor trannie' would have asked for changes to the script -to show what? Rayon in the film is not actually depicted as a prostitute, as I recall, we never see her hustling or disappearing in a cab with a john. She is not shown taking drugs outside the anti-viral medicines the members of the Club are buying, yet I would surmise 50% or more of 18-35 year old transexuals in Dallas in the 1980s would be at least casual consumers of recreational drugs -Texas might be conservative by reputation, but we all know strange things happen after dark.

On the other hand, by playing a direct role in the Dallas Club, Rayon is shown as a socially responsible person who is doing something that is mutually beneficial for her and the local community -hardly a negative stereotype.

I wonder if it is a case of transexuals being critical in this sense: I don't talk like that; I don't dress like that during the day. I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't wave my hands around like that. I don't know if Jared Leto did any research, my guess is that if he is into bands, LA, clubs, and so on, he has encountered transexuals; if he did not want to acknowledge the fact that is his choice.

[broncofan]

I agree with most of the comments. It would have been very meaningful for a trans woman to win the Oscar but winning it was not a foregone conclusion for anyone. I also don't understand the argument that if someone plays a character who has some stereotypical features, they are then the mere embodiment of those stereotypes. Sometimes certain character traits are derived from actual biographical data where the character is based on a real person, and sometimes stereotypes are touched upon incidentally without an implied message that these characteristics are typical of a member of that class.

[clonmult]

No. Transgender should ONLY do porn!

Hmmmm, not sure if serious.

We've had a couple of transgender women at work, thats a fairly normal working environment (central southern UK).

People, regardless of gender, should be allowed to perform any job that they want as long as they can do the job.

[RallyCola]

At issue is whether or not there is a transgender woman who could have played the role better. The oscar was awarded for Leto's ability to embody the role well. I contest that if a cis gender woman had played the role of a transwoman, it would not have been as well received as Leto's portrayal. Moreover, I contest that had a transwoman played the role in DBC, more attention would have been paid to her gender and the fact that she had or was transitioning than her ability on screen to portray a character well.

the fact is that most of society is not well educated on the transgender community to be ready to respect a transgender actor in this or any role so the answer is, in a movie such as this where you have A-list talent, i don't think a transgender actor would have been appropriate because the masses would have reacted errantly. Moreover, because the role was of a poor hooker, it would have put an undue spectacle on the transgender community.

Trans actors need to break into film and tv as regular characters where the fact that they are trans is only part of their personal life, not their character's life. That's equality and acceptance. Anything short of that still segregates transpeople as something other than normal.

[Rabbiteyes]

I agree with most of the comments. It would have been very meaningful for a trans woman to win the Oscar but winning it was not a foregone conclusion for anyone. I also don't understand the argument that if someone plays a character who has some stereotypical features, they are then the mere embodiment of those stereotypes. Sometimes certain character traits are derived from actual biographical data where the character is based on a real person, and sometimes stereotypes are touched upon incidentally without an implied message that these characteristics are typical of a member of that class.

The Rayon character wasn't based on a real person...

The main character of the movie WAS based on a real person...and that person was bisexual (and no indications of him being bigoted). But the writers made him straight instead (since, well, straight guy saving gays seems like a better story, right?).

They still needed a gay character in the film then.

So they invented Rayon.... as a crossdresser.

Yup, the character was a crossdresser originally. Actually, they just swapped out the word "Crossdresser" for "tranny" at some point (but left the script as it was).

Anyhow, who was Rayon? The gay pity porn wet dream character of the directors.

Someone who audiences could really feel the deepest form of pity for...the very bottom of society.

Drug addict....aids infected....prostitute....who dies....AND is trans.

I mean really, does it get any more sad? I guess she could have been black?

[Rabbiteyes]

Trans actors need to break into film and tv as regular characters where the fact that they are trans is only part of their personal life, not their character's life. That's equality and acceptance. Anything short of that still segregates transpeople as something other than normal.

Ideally....sure....

But we all know that isn't happening or going to happen.

Trans actresses getting trans roles is one of the few things they actually CAN do.... but still manage to miss out on those roles in favor of a man ready to throw on a dress.

[RallyCola]

Ideally....sure....

But we all know that isn't happening or going to happen.

Trans actresses getting trans roles is one of the few things they actually CAN do.... but still manage to miss out on those roles in favor of a man ready to throw on a dress.

that is a very defeatest statement and it would almost seem to pigeonhole trans actors. to simplify the issue, it really will come down to whether a casting director is hiring an actor because he or she is a transgender person or hiring an actor who just happens to be a transgender person.

it is quite clear to me that major film and tv roles will only come after success in independent films or plays. i would not be surprised at all if an off-broadway, or for that matter, a broadway show is where someone will get a big mainstream break.

[Rabbiteyes]

"I found my answer when I listened with jaw dropped to what director Jean-Marc Vallee had to say on CBC Radio about casting a trans person as the role of Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club. “Never,” he said. “Is there any transgender actor? To my knowledge — I don’t know one. I didn’t even think about it”. When the interviewer interjected with, “Of course there are transgender actors,” Vallee answered with, “Which ones? There’s like five, or three, or what — two? I never thought of that. I never thought of hiring a real rodeo guy to play the rodeo Ron Woodruff. And just like in every film — we’re actors, we’re directors. I’m not aiming for the real thing. I’m aiming for an experienced actor who wants to portray the thing.”


They didn't even look for a trans person...or think about it.

But, yea, random cis straight guy who talked to a tranny once or twice seems legit. Not like the role would turn into an ugly walking stereotype or something (oh wait, crap, that is what happened).

[broncofan]

The Rayon character wasn't based on a real person...

The main character of the movie WAS based on a real person...and that person was bisexual (and no indications of him being bigoted). But the writers made him straight instead (since, well, straight guy saving gays seems like a better story, right?).

They still needed a gay character in the film then.

So they invented Rayon.... as a crossdresser.

Yup, the character was a crossdresser originally. Actually, they just swapped out the word "Crossdresser" for "tranny" at some point (but left the script as it was).
Anyhow, who was Rayon? The gay pity porn wet dream character of the directors.
Someone who audiences could really feel the deepest form of pity for...the very bottom of society.
Drug addict....aids infected....prostitute....who dies....AND is trans.
I mean really, does it get any more sad? I guess she could have been black?
I agree with you that the artistic choices weren't the bravest. I particularly understand your objection to the macho homophobic guy taking charge and gradually developing a sensitivity for the gay and transgender community. I thought it was a bit of a cop-out, as well as a weak plot device.

Maybe the director and screenwriter didn't trust the audience to be sympathetic to Rayon unless he was portrayed as coming from the most desperate circumstances. If that's the case, then the choices are a response to prejudice rather than a driver of it.

I don't think the portrayal of Rayon was a malicious one. It might reflect the filmmaker's belief that there would be trans-phobic and homophobic people in the audience.

But if you look at the history of message movies, they don't date very well. There was a movie decades ago called Gentleman's Agreement about anti-semitism, that if you watch now, comes across as a well-intentioned, albeit overwrought and absurd film. I bet you there were some people at the time who thought so simply because they had a familiarity with the issues.

[RallyCola]

They didn't even look for a trans person...or think about it.


did you miss my original post????

of course they did not look for a trans actor. they wanted a commercially viable movie so they cast someone with a name.

if they had cast a transwoman, the press would have focused on her transition more than her skill as an actress. the masses would have labeled it a gay aids movie. the producers were completely right NOT to seek a transwoman as their point was to make money.

that fact...that the movie was made to make money...is exactly the reason that a trans actor needs to be cast in a role that has nothing to do with transition because that is the best way to hedge against having the focus be on the actor's gender...it is the best way to hedge against the uneducated audience labeling it inappropriately.

[Rabbiteyes]

of course they did not look for a trans actor. they wanted a commercially viable movie so they cast someone with a name.


Ok, if you want to talk about business...let's do that.

From a business stand point, Jared Leto hasn't done a movie for over 6 years. He really isn't a big name.

On the other hand, you are right...the media would have asked a trans actress about trans things for the trans role she is playing (WHICH IS A GOOD THING!).

In the same way Laverne Cox gets a HUGE amount of publicity and attention (for being a trans actress playing a trans character). Whatever actress had gotten the part for Buyers Club would have gotten huge press as well....

From a business stand point, a trans person would have brought a lot more attention. Instead, you had Leto going around to the talk shows talking about waxing his entire body and deciding to wear drag out once to "get connected with the role".

Basically, it was like having a straight guy play a woman and then asking him how he felt... and he focuses on "omg, did you know women shave their legs?!? with these special non man razors! omg!"

You seem to be trying to argue that a trans person SHOULDN'T play trans roles....which is kind of insane?

You seem fine with the results of cis straight guys playing trans characters (in that they bring nothing to the role but tired stereotypes).

The director gave an interview about how Leto first met him in character....and that leto was so into the character, that the first thing he did was try to seduce the director (because, of course a trans women wants to fuck any man that walks by). Even outside the movie these guys had their heads so far up their asses that they didn't realize they were just living out some weird stereotyped idea of women and trans people.

The entire thing is just pathetic.

[MrBest]

its called acting

[bluesoul]

You seem fine with the results of cis straight guys playing trans characters (in that they bring nothing to the role but tired stereotypes).


the actor only brought to the role what was required of him. if the part demands he play a certain character he cannot change it and suddenly be an activist for a cause he most likely doesn't understand.

also, didn't domino presley dare "us" to try and live in the opposite gender for a week (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1463633)? how long did the shooting of this film last, because i think jared leto may have done it for us- especially, since as you put it, "he's going on all these talk shows talking about waxing his entire body and deciding to wear drag out once to "get connected with the role".

[fred41]

I haven't seen the movie yet...so I can't judge his acting. Normally I say let actors act.
My question would be."If you didn't know Jared Leto and never saw him out of character...would you know he wasn't a transsexual?"..and if so, how?

[Rabbiteyes]

its called acting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4h30ysR0lk

My guess is Buyers Club will be a short footnote in "the progression of the tranny" down the road.

And it will be the black face period...when cis straight men played trans women.

[runningdownthatdream]

Once again the usual idiotic non-sympathetic comments from the same members of the peanut gallery when a trans-woman comments on something not porn related. Instead of chiming in on the side of the misinformed general public how about you two asshats show some understanding and try to relate to what she's saying?

[lifeisfiction]

I wonder if a trans person had played the role, would they have gotten an academy award? We are jumping through too many hoops. Jared performance as actor was good, he conveyed emotion extremely well giving more than one dimension to his character. Actors by definition act to portray a different person. I don't how many people say the buyers club, but I thought Matt and him did an excellent job at portraying complex characters. I still thought in my opinion the Oscar should have gone to some other people, but Academy tends to never agree with my opinion.

[Stavros]

The Rayon character wasn't based on a real person...

The main character of the movie WAS based on a real person...and that person was bisexual (and no indications of him being bigoted). But the writers made him straight instead (since, well, straight guy saving gays seems like a better story, right?).

They still needed a gay character in the film then.

So they invented Rayon.... as a crossdresser.

Yup, the character was a crossdresser originally. Actually, they just swapped out the word "Crossdresser" for "tranny" at some point (but left the script as it was).

Anyhow, who was Rayon? The gay pity porn wet dream character of the directors.

Someone who audiences could really feel the deepest form of pity for...the very bottom of society.

Drug addict....aids infected....prostitute....who dies....AND is trans.

I mean really, does it get any more sad? I guess she could have been black?

I agree with a theme of your post, the ambiguity of a film where facts blur into fiction -yes, in real life Woodroof, according to his wife, was bi-sexual; also the Rayon character was derived from a mix of real transexuals in Dallas around at the time, rather than a specific individual, which does raise the question: how did the writer/director decide what a transexual looked like, acted like, thought like, and so on. In the post on the film I made in the What is the Last Movie You Watched? thread, I speculated on the possibility that Woodroof's 'bi-sexual' encounters were with transexuals, rather than men.

Films which are about historical subjects always manipulate the facts for the purposes of drama. In A Man for All Seasons (Fred Zinneman, 1966) the screenplay succeeds in presenting Thomas More as a man of principle, indeed, an heroic character -in real history, he was a politically motivated religious bigot who sent hundreds of people to the gallows without losing a night's sleep.

On the other hand, how many engaging and intelligent films have there been about the AIDS crisis of the 1980s, or more pertinently about the complacency shown by too many young people towards HIV/AIDS today? Very few.

How many films do have a transexual character who, in spite of an assumed lifestyle never made explicit in the film, is a positive role model, and someone with moral purpose? This is not some freak cross-dresser who slashes women to ribbons (Brian de Palma, Dressed to Kill, 1980), or a transexual who shears off the soft, supple flesh of young women in a desperate attempt to re-create himself as a woman (Jonathan Demme, Silence of the Lambs, 1991). For all the weaknesses of historical fact versus dramatic intention, the film is a powerful and moving study. I don't know if a transgendered actor would have done as good a job as Jared Leto, but it is done. It is satisfactory.

[runningdownthatdream]

I don't think the issue is whether Jared Leto gave a good performance or not - the issue is whether an effort - at the very least - should have been made to find a trans actress. If the effort was made and unsuccessful then by all means choose DeNiro to play a 20-something trans-woman. But an extremely masculine looking person wasn't chosen, right? Instead a man that the director thinks has feminine qualities is chosen. So if he was going for the 'look' of the person then why not at least audition a trans actress? Or how about really going for the gold - as Danny Boyle did with Slumdog Millionaire - and picking a trans-woman who isn't an established actress?

[bluesoul]

And it will be the black face period...when cis straight men played trans women.

when white actors wore blackface, black people were not allowed to be actors. also, when white actors wore blackface, they did it to insult black people.

neither of these were the case in dallas buyers club


Danny Boyle did with Slumdog Millionaire - and picking a trans-woman who isn't an established actress?

the director for dallas buyers club is jean marc vallee so he has different intentions and makes different film choices (and casting) from danny boyle.

[Stavros]

I don't think the issue is whether Jared Leto gave a good performance or not - the issue is whether an effort - at the very least - should have been made to find a trans actress. If the effort was made and unsuccessful then by all means choose DeNiro to play a 20-something trans-woman. But an extremely masculine looking person wasn't chosen, right? Instead a man that the director thinks has feminine qualities is chosen. So if he was going for the 'look' of the person then why not at least audition a trans actress? Or how about really going for the gold - as Danny Boyle did with Slumdog Millionaire - and picking a trans-woman who isn't an established actress?

Harmony Santana would be an obvious choice, in the sense that she has already won much acclaim for her role in Gun Hill Road (Rashaad Green, 2011).But I guess the problem in Hollywood revolves around other things -as an actor is your agent well connected, how many people auditioned for the role? Sometimes even well known actors fall out with the director, producer and get replaced. Theoretically they might have offered it to a transgendered actor and then decided he or she wasn't what they wanted, or any other issues. Did the Producers and Director think of using a transgendered actor from the start? Hard to know.

[runningdownthatdream]

Harmony Santana would be an obvious choice, in the sense that she has already won much acclaim for her role in Gun Hill Road (Rashaad Green, 2011).But I guess the problem in Hollywood revolves around other things -as an actor is your agent well connected, how many people auditioned for the role? Sometimes even well known actors fall out with the director, producer and get replaced. Theoretically they might have offered it to a transgendered actor and then decided he or she wasn't what they wanted, or any other issues. Did the Producers and Director think of using a transgendered actor from the start? Hard to know.

Read post 15 by Rabbiteyes for the answer..........

[Stavros]

Read post 15 by Rabbiteyes for the answer..........


"I found my answer when I listened with jaw dropped to what director Jean-Marc Vallee had to say on CBC Radio about casting a trans person as the role of Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club. “Never,” he said. “Is there any transgender actor? To my knowledge — I don’t know one. I didn’t even think about it”. When the interviewer interjected with, “Of course there are transgender actors,” Vallee answered with, “Which ones? There’s like five, or three, or what — two? I never thought of that. I never thought of hiring a real rodeo guy to play the rodeo Ron Woodruff. And just like in every film — we’re actors, we’re directors. I’m not aiming for the real thing. I’m aiming for an experienced actor who wants to portray the thing.”

Evasive at best, ignorant at worst. On the other hand, maybe there is the banal question: how does anyone get a part in a movie? Agents must play a role here.

[Ben]

Could've gone w/ Laverne Cox.

[fred41]

Yeah...she's in "Orange is the New Black"....a Netflix series.It's very good,and she very good in it....can't wait for next season.

[sukumvit boy]

Kind of a ,"Damned if you do and damned if you don't " ,situation.

[Tina Francis]

...And so, would this supposed trans actor hired to play this role adhere to the script as written and approved by the executive producers? (i.e., the shooting screenplay, as it was eventually shot)...Rabbiteyes, do you live in LA, have you had any interaction with 'industry types'?...well I have lived here my whole life, and I have never met a more intransigent bunch of pricks anywhere...

[giovanni_hotel]

There are plenty of trans-women capable of holding their own on screen. It's all about the inclination and intent of the director.


In Captain Phillips starring Tom Hanks, the director actively sought out and cast real Somalis to play key roles. As an artist particularly a director you want to portray a realism, an authenticity on screen to move the narrative and draw the viewer into your artifice of reality.

Are there men who could play women's roles in movies?? And vice versa?? Of course.
But no matter the talent of the actor, you'd lose some of the authenticity of the character.

The director of DBC sounds like he believes personally that TS are all CD/DQ anyway, so what's the big deal about having Jared Leto starring in one of the primary roles??

Because he couldn't bother to seek out trans-actors, he blithely conjectures TS actors simply do not exist. Real winner there.


TS are actively involved in a modern civil rights struggle not for acceptance, but mere recognition as transgendered people. Not as cross-dressers. Not as drag-queens.

If the character is openly transgender, I think the director has due diligence to at least try to locate a TS to play the role.


At some point in the future I wholeheartedly agree with Rabbiteyes we'll look back at this period where everyone but transgenders were cast to play themselves in the same way we view past White actors in Blackface to play Othello, or wearing red face paint to play Native Americans.

For a trans-woman I understand why it's totally unacceptable for anyone except a TS to play a TS in film.

[lifeisfiction]

Its not uncommon for directors to work with certain cast. Christian Bale played a Jewish man in American Hustle. I think it depends on what the director is looking for, a lot times you have a movie that has to make back its profit and sometimes directors while stick with actors who have a track history of stellar performance. Now does that mean that there is no trans actor who could have done the role well, no. I can feel people thinking it should have casted a trans person. (Spoiler alert) I thought the character was trans mtf, but then at one scene when the character was meeting the father, I could see why the director went that direction. The director wanted Leto to be a tv not a ts. Makes a big difference in casting.

[Rabbiteyes]

...And so, would this supposed trans actor hired to play this role adhere to the script as written and approved by the executive producers? (i.e., the shooting screenplay, as it was eventually shot)...Rabbiteyes, do you live in LA, have you had any interaction with 'industry types'?...well I have lived here my whole life, and I have never met a more intransigent bunch of pricks anywhere...

Actually...yea I do. I was living in hollywood for the last 4 - 5 years (now up in glendale).

I have friends that are writers, directors, actresses, and know tons of visual effects people. I've also been involved in a few films myself (not as an actor, but as more the development side of things...storyboarding, or character concepts / vfx).

Trans people being involved in the shoot could have DEFINITELY shifted the film away from some of the more problematic aspects.

Instead, they had some cis straight guy whos ideas of trans (or women) are rather questionable. Heck, even how he views prostitutes seems rather sketchy.

I still find it insane that so many are arguing that the idea of a trans woman playing a trans woman is unreasonable. Especially when the results of having no trans people (as we have just witnessed) was a rather damning portrayal.

"The other investment Leto made was to get into character as Rayon before he even got the role. Director Jean-Marc Vallée says he “never met Jared Leto. I met Rayon; I don’t know Leto. Jared never showed me Jared. During our first meeting he was Rayon, and he tried to seduce me. He was so into the character and had dressed as Rayon.”"

Are you kidding me? :|

[RallyCola]

this thread has proven to be no different than any other here...everyone so entrenched in their opinion with no actual debate.

rabbiteyes is making nonsensical posts because in one breath she would like trans actors to have fair shot at trans roles and in the other breath she pigeonholes trans actors into trans roles. its a ridiculous POV and contradictory when you read the sum of her posts.

moreover some of the statements about trans actors APPEAR unfounded...giovanni states that there are trans actors capable of holding their own. i know of none. if there are trans actors that have held their own with other big talent, please let me know where to find them. i contest that no trans actor has yet earned mainstream tv or movie success for their acting chops so that statement by giovanni is equally ridiculous.

runningdown is just an idiot who cannot read. i am not even going to bother because those of you who can read clearly see what my point is from my previous posts.

as far as DBC goes...the fact is that the producers did what served them best...hired an actor that would aid them in making the most money. i think they got what they were looking for. jared leto did a fine job with his role AND given his competition for this year's supporting actor award, deserved the trophy.

[RallyCola]

I still find it insane that so many are arguing that the idea of a trans woman playing a trans woman is unreasonable. Especially when the results of having no trans people (as we have just witnessed) was a rather damning portrayal.
|

i'm not saying it is unreasonable...i'm saying it is demeaning for a trans actor to be limited to that type of role because of their personal disposition. moreover, it moves nothing forward and would attract improper attention. the spectacle would be on that actor just because she or he is trans...not for their skill and that makes it far less meaningful than it should be.

that you don't understand that is pretty sad.

[Wanderer1]

I would love to see t-girls in the movies and on the tube, but I suspect that the pool is small, but surely some are available, and like with GG, a good number of models turn into actresses(or at least try to).

[giovanni_hotel]

this thread has proven to be no different than any other here...everyone so entrenched in their opinion with no actual debate.

rabbiteyes is making nonsensical posts because in one breath she would like trans actors to have fair shot at trans roles and in the other breath she pigeonholes trans actors into trans roles. its a ridiculous POV and contradictory when you read the sum of her posts.

moreover some of the statements about trans actors APPEAR unfounded...giovanni states that there are trans actors capable of holding their own. i know of none. if there are trans actors that have held their own with other big talent, please let me know where to find them. i contest that no trans actor has yet earned mainstream tv or movie success for their acting chops so that statement by giovanni is equally ridiculous.

runningdown is just an idiot who cannot read. i am not even going to bother because those of you who can read clearly see what my point is from my previous posts.

as far as DBC goes...the fact is that the producers did what served them best...hired an actor that would aid them in making the most money. i think they got what they were looking for. jared leto did a fine job with his role AND given his competition for this year's supporting actor award, deserved the trophy.

Condescending much??

It's disingenuous to argue because you personally don't know of any prominent trans-actors there must not be any TS capable of playing basically themselves in a movie.

That's what screen-tests are for, to see if someone can sell a line in a script in front of a camera.

Call me crazy, but my gut tells me there are TS women out here with enough of a dramatic sense to act in a movie..playing a transwoman.:geek:

Rabbiteyes isn't pigeonholing TS in trans roles, but I agree with her point if you're going to have an actor play a trans character on film, it wouldn't hurt to seek out a TS actor.

It's not uncommon for people from underrepresented communities to be cast as first time actors in movies and be quite excellent in those roles.

Cambodian Haing S. Ngor had NEVER ACTED IN A MOVIE before he was cast as a Cambodian refugee in The Killing Fields. He won Best Supporting Oscar.
http://img2-1.timeinc.net/ew/i/2013/10/08/Haing-S-Ngor.jpg

For character roles, it's really not that uncommon for first time actors to be cast and do a terrific job.


It's ludicrous to expect TS actors to pay their dues working their way up through repertory theatre etc., before they've 'earned' the right to play TS roles.

I think it's really difficult for some demographics in our society to understand how phony and demeaning it is to routinely see OTHER people starring in roles other than the ACTUAL people the actors are attempting to portray.

[the_corner]

Do you hire a transsexual to portray a transsexual in a movie? Maybe. More than likely NO.

No, you do not hire a doctor to play a doctor on screen, or a cop to play a cop. No, you do not hire a real terrorist to play a terrorist on screen. Its called a role and you hire a PROFESSIONAL ACTOR.

Emphasize in the word PROFESSIONAL.

Somehow people tend to underestimate the jobs of others and to magically think that "you can do them", well, sorry, but no, YOU CAN'T.

The fact that you do something in real life does not imply that you can do it within a film set and keep up with the part.

And by the way, as a producer, you do not gamble your hard earned budget on a project with no professionals that does not guarantee that you will be able to complete the job successfully.

When you guys comment about Jared Leto maybe not meeting a trans once or twice in his life, well, how do you know? How do you know the work that he did to prepare for the part?, it sounds like a bunch of prejudiced statements from some people that have little right to judge others.

Dallas Buyers Club is a UNION show. How many TS SAG union actors are out there?... that are willing to play the part... and that can actually play the part? Not many (if any) I can guarantee you that.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating the work of others, and to somehow thing that you or you're community is somehow entitled to something that you're not.

[VictoriaVeil]

Do you hire a transsexual to portray a transsexual in a movie? Maybe. More than likely NO.

How many TS SAG union actors are out there?... that are willing to play the part... and that can actually play the part? Not many (if any) I can guarantee you that.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating the work of others, and to somehow thing that you or you're community is somehow entitled to something that you're not.


DO you hire a transexual actor for a role.. I say Yes. And before you jump on me, I agree the actor should be professional. How many can play the part? More than you think. How many are SAG? Very very few as you have to get hired to enter the union (catch 22)

Do i think he Jared did well, absolutely. Do I think a Ts performer could do the gig. In a heartbeat.

My two cents.

[giovanni_hotel]

A TS playing a TS in a movie is now considered an undeserved entitlement??lol

Wow.

Jared Leto was playing real life for all too many TS. He didn't discover some unknown emotional depth in the psyche of transwomen.

The producer and director of Dallas Buyer's Club made no effort to find or screen-test a TS to play the role.

To assume it's because none existed is myopic and dismissive.

When the character is a woman, you try to find a female actor. When the character is a man, it doesn't hurt to cast a dude in that role.

Being trans isn't some pretense. If being a TS is inherent to the character on film, you as a director are better off making the honest effort to find a TS to play the role.

[the_corner]

DO you hire a transexual actor for a role.. I say Yes. And before you jump on me, I agree the actor should be professional. How many can play the part? More than you think. How many are SAG? Very very few as you have to get hired to enter the union (catch 22)

Do i think he Jared did well, absolutely. Do I think a Ts performer could do the gig. In a heartbeat.

My two cents.

I give you this. If I was doing this show, would I hire a transsexual? I would tell you that I would consider it.

But that doesn't mean that I would do it, because there are other variables in the game that go beyond idealistic choice, and in the end, you do what you have to do to get the project going, and that's all.

[Quiet Reflections]

other than the girl in orange is the new black Im not sure I have seen a good ts actor/actress. Im sure there have to be some out there but being good at one role doesn't mean you can pull off any role. I think they made the right choice for marketing and his onscreen chops, And while im not a fan of jared leto he has done some good movies, has it been a while since the last one.....sure but then he is busy touring in a platinum selling band.

[robertlouis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4h30ysR0lk

My guess is Buyers Club will be a short footnote in "the progression of the tranny" down the road.

And it will be the black face period...when cis straight men played trans women.

I agree entirely. And in due course it will be looked on as just as embarrassing as the portrayal that gained Hattie McDaniel the first Oscar to be awarded to an African-American in Gone With The Wind. And it took another 30 years for civil rights legislation to be carried into law.

Call me over-optimistic, and in spite of the rabid hostility of various blue states to equal marriage and transsexual rights, there is definitely a positive trend towards acceptance, and it won't take thirty years.

But while we're discussing Jared Leto's suitability, consider the competition for the best supporting actor role. Barkhad Abdi was nominated for his role as the lead pirate in Captain Phillips and imho filled the screen every bit as powerfully as the double Oscar winner Tom Hanks.

And had he ever acted in a film before? No. Paul Greengrass wanted as much realism as he could get, so chose a Somali without acting experience.

Irony, anyone?

[robertlouis]

A view from within the transsexual community. Grishno is occasionally provocative but usually talks a lot of sense.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTlCfUX2yM

[Prospero]

I agree with the general thrust of the arguments here. It should have been a transsexual. But as Robert louis says, it's a marker on the road. After all would anyone but an Indian play Gandhi today. Yet in 1982 Ben Kingsley was cast in the role.

Oh and Leto was actually pretty good.

[robertlouis]

Ben Kingsley was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji, the child of an Indian father and English mother, but the general point is well-made.

Taking it back still further, I remember watching the film of Olivier's Othello at school and being taken aback by the black stain Olivier as Othello left on Desdemona's (Maggie Smith's) cheek after an embrace.

[yodajazz]

After a brief check, I see that Leto has made several appearances in drag. I would say that he is at least supporting gender non-conformity.

After a while some t-people will get tired of always seeing their kind, in lower class roles, as some Black Americans have. I would be happy to see t-people play sis-gender roles. I recently saw a Chinese movie, that did this. But they do have a long history of this in China.

[Prospero]

Ben Kingsley was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji, the child of an Indian father and English mother, but the general point is well-made.

Taking it back still further, I remember watching the film of Olivier's Othello at school and being taken aback by the black stain Olivier as Othello left on Desdemona's (Maggie Smith's) cheek after an embrace.

I didn't know that. Whoops...... Dork or dunderhead! You choose.

[Rabbiteyes]

i'm not saying it is unreasonable...i'm saying it is demeaning for a trans actor to be limited to that type of role because of their personal disposition. moreover, it moves nothing forward and would attract improper attention. the spectacle would be on that actor just because she or he is trans...not for their skill and that makes it far less meaningful than it should be.

that you don't understand that is pretty sad.

So you are saying what Laverne Cox has done is demeaning?

[Quiet Reflections]

Ben Kingsley was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji, the child of an Indian father and English mother, but the general point is well-made.

Taking it back still further, I remember watching the film of Olivier's Othello at school and being taken aback by the black stain Olivier as Othello left on Desdemona's (Maggie Smith's) cheek after an embrace.
Taken aback by the black face make-up or by the fact that some people see white women as forever stained for being with a black man.

[robertlouis]

Taken aback by the black face make-up or by the fact that some people see white women as forever stained for being with a black man.

The former. Naughty boy! :)

[Ananke]

If it's about the acting: it would be nice to have a real transsexual play the role but eventually it has to be the best actor for the role.
In my opinion, it is much more about the director: the actor can only depict the character as directed. If he is being asked to focus on stereotypes, it will not matter how good the actor is, the results will be awful.....

[Prospero]

It is a rather dishonest film but an enjoyable one. it does raise the central question (beyond the controversy over the casting) of how much a dramatisation should cleave the historical truth and how much creative licence is allowable to make it more 'dramatic." The recent film "Philomena" is seems plays terrific fast and loose with the historical facts (which on their own would have made a terrific story without unnecessary enhancement).

[the_corner]

Another issue here is that Dallas Buyers Club is supposed to be set in 1985. I would go on a tangent and say that a "tranny" of 1985 (almost 3 decades ago!) looked way different to what we're used to seeing today.

There was no hormone therapy as we know today, no silicon implants, etc. etc.

As such, a 1985 "tranny" would look more like a man in drag, maybe a man in drag that takes old fashioned contraceptives to "look more femme".

Does that mean that the production should have hired a gay man to play the role? I would suggest that you should cast whoever can play the role, regardless of sexual preference.

Perhaps the only objectionable thing here is that it appears that the producers did not even attempt to cast a transsexual, which maybe they should have at least tried, yet there are production variables that we can't see and hence, that we can't judge.

With that said, I find the work of Leto very remarkable and that the praises he is getting are well deserved.

[nysprod]

Another issue here is that Dallas Buyers Club is supposed to be set in 1985. I would go on a tangent and say that a "tranny" of 1985 (almost 3 decades ago!) looked way different to what we're used to seeing today.

There was no hormone therapy as we know today, no silicon implants, etc. etc.


Hell, there were parts of the city that didn't have electricity or even running water, you'd see people down by the river washing their chamberpots.

[APD2]

OK so you've got the role:a drug-addled transvestite street-hooker - someone who's mentally and physically very sick. The writer and director intend to depict her life and suffering in a tragi-comic manner.

The actor or actress in the role preferably has to be prepared to lose 3 or 4 stone,to show the effects of AIDS related wasting.

Which current transgendered actor is best placed to play this or similar roles?


I get some of the criticisms of the choice of Leto,but these criticisms could generally be extended to the profession of acting as a whole. Whichever way you cut it ,actors pretend to be something they are not and that is part of what entertains the audience .

[Nikka]

I like Jared, his 30seconds to mards videos fucking rock :rock2

[pointythingshurt]

This is ridiculous. The Academy give awards to actors and actresses who display RANGE. Leto won that award BECAUSE he's a straight male. It would not have been so impressive an acting job coming from someone who lived that life 24/7.

[giovanni_hotel]

Gender specific roles typically are played by people of that gender.
Look for a TS next time.

This is 2014, there are more than enough TS who can play THEMSELVES or someone very close to themselves on screen.

[SpoogeMonkey]

this is bullshit.

why are people bringing up Jared Leto's sexual orientation? What the fuck has his personal life got to do with a role. Imagine the outrage if the straight community were questioning a gay male playing a straight role? What a preposterous hypocritical slur.

As for playing a transgendered role, a transgendered person is somebody transitioning from male to female or female to male. This film's casting was after a quality actor to portray a role. I cannot see why a man or a woman couldn't portray this role, seeing as its a role that needs belief the character is a man who is transgendered. So started life as a male but is now transitioning. Why MUST it be a transgendered person? How do you know that transgendered people auditioned but weren't good enough. Where are these oscar performing transgendered actors/actresses hiding?

IF WIDOW TWANKEY ISNT PLAYED BY A FEMALE AT NEXT YEARS PANTOMIME IM GOING TO FUCKING KICK OFF

[SpoogeMonkey]

Also why should there be ANY transgendered actors/actresses? Why does anybody WANT to be 'trans'. Surely there are only Men and Women? No? The trans label is surely just more bullshit. Its a temporary state.. no? Candis Cayne is a beautiful woman. Carmen Carrera is a beautiful woman. Not beautiful transgendered. Fucking bunch of cunts the lot of ye...

[fred41]

momentary diversion: coolest TS played by a GG...the character Mia from the limited series "Hit & Miss"...played by Chloe Sevigny.

wish a network would pick that up and continue it.

[giovanni_hotel]

this is bullshit.

why are people bringing up Jared Leto's sexual orientation? What the fuck has his personal life got to do with a role. Imagine the outrage if the straight community were questioning a gay male playing a straight role? What a preposterous hypocritical slur.

As for playing a transgendered role, a transgendered person is somebody transitioning from male to female or female to male. This film's casting was after a quality actor to portray a role. I cannot see why a man or a woman couldn't portray this role, seeing as its a role that needs belief the character is a man who is transgendered. So started life as a male but is now transitioning. Why MUST it be a transgendered person? How do you know that transgendered people auditioned but weren't good enough. Where are these oscar performing transgendered actors/actresses hiding?

IF WIDOW TWANKEY ISNT PLAYED BY A FEMALE AT NEXT YEARS PANTOMIME IM GOING TO FUCKING KICK OFF

According to you, if a natal man/woman or TS are all equally qualified to play trans roles on stage and film, why is there so much outrage about an actual TS playing.....herself???

I feel there's this unspoken bigotry against TS whenever they seek to carve out their own public space and force society at large to acknowledge they EXIST.

The director himself admitted he DID NOT SEEK OUT a TS to act in this movie.

Let's stop pretending only established actors are capable of playing convincingly niche character driven roles.

Unknowns are cast all the time in movies with very little to no acting experience who then go on to give outstanding performances.

[Rabbiteyes]

The trans label is surely just more bullshit. Its a temporary state.. no? Candis Cayne is a beautiful woman. Carmen Carrera is a beautiful woman. Not beautiful transgendered. Fucking bunch of cunts the lot of ye...

Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

[yodajazz]

Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

I feel this is a healthy (or healthier) way of looking at trans life. There are some t people bent on maintaining the status on the gender divide. They attack gays, and even some bi people, even though they may have at one time identified as gay. I think society is getting healthier as a whole, even though there will be pockets of backlash. One of the best things is for people to get to know, someone from the oppressed group. Entertainment is one of the best ways to reach a larger group of people. Seems as though there are more trans people being portrayed these days. I still believe that Jared Leto helped to open more eyes about gender non-conformity. What has not been mentioned here is that a name actor will attract a wider audience, which means more money at the box office. I did not know Jared Leto by name, but I remember his face from other roles. I bet there are a few who checked out the movie, simply because he was in it.

[giovanni_hotel]

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
http://blogs.centrictv.com/lifestyle/culturelist/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/19818-1.jpg


It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

[robertlouis]

Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

I think you did well not to rise to the moronic provocation of that poster. Far too many posters here, and people in the wider world, choose to reduce the complexities of transsexuality to the simplest form available, often that which conforms to their own set of narrow prejudices.

In the real world, trans girls, at whatever stage they might be in their transition, simply get on with it, living their lives a million miles from the fantasies of porn. And that's hard.

[runningdownthatdream]

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
http://blogs.centrictv.com/lifestyle/culturelist/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/19818-1.jpg


It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

This is the point I believe most of the others posting in this thread are missing. It's NOT about Jared Leto per se or whether he deserved an award or whether he's a good actor or whether he portrayed the character accurately. It's about ignorance missed opportunity by the director and producers of the film. There are few transgender characters in film and here was a chance to provide some authentic and meaningful insight into that world yet not only do they ignore the chance the director decides to be a prick about the rationale behind his decision.

[robertlouis]

This is the point I believe most of the others posting in this thread are missing. It's NOT about Jared Leto per se or whether he deserved an award or whether he's a good actor or whether he portrayed the character accurately. It's about ignorance missed opportunity by the director and producers of the film. There are few transgender characters in film and here was a chance to provide some authentic and meaningful insight into that world yet not only do they ignore the chance the director decides to be a prick about the rationale behind his decision.

This. :iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Stavros]

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

The Jared Leto character Rayon is a composite of various people from Woodroof's life, some of whom may have been 'full-time' transgendered women some of them 'part-timing as women' as you put it. It is a fictional role in that respect, yet most of the time Rayon is in character, and this rings true with a lot of transwomen in the 1980s so I don't see what you are getting at as far as Leto is concerned -yes, the Producer and Director could have made a different choice -but as I also said in another post sometimes it comes down to agents too, and it is often up to an agent to get his actors a part as much as the makers of the film.

Lady Chablis in a poor film was at best two-dimensional and most of the time required to perform stereotypical limp-wristed gestures as a cartoon tranny, as tedious as Candy Carling in an Andy Warhol film.

Here is Leto from today's Guardian (full interview in the link):

"When you were preparing to play Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club (http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/feb/06/dallas-buyers-club-review), an HIV-positive transgender woman, did you talk to trans people and people with HIV? Yeah, definitely. I talked to transgender people and that was the education and the start of it all. I'm really grateful for those experiences.
Did you go method? I stayed in character the entire shoot. I couldn't imagine doing it another way. I'd gone too far to pick it up and drop it off."


http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/mar/06/jared-leto-thirty-seconds-to-mars-oscars-dallas-buyers-club

[SpoogeMonkey]

I think you did well not to rise to the moronic provocation of that poster. Far too many posters here, and people in the wider world, choose to reduce the complexities of transsexuality to the simplest form available, often that which conforms to their own set of narrow prejudices.

In the real world, trans girls, at whatever stage they might be in their transition, simply get on with it, living their lives a million miles from the fantasies of porn. And that's hard.

robert louis, fuck off

rabbiteyes

I find your view odd. Surely the term trans(ition) is a misnomer then, because you are by the very definition transitioning, thus taking a journey from male to something that isn't male and is a feminised male. And that by all intent and reason must be a more female form. Because you are identifying with female traits. I don't accept that the term trans is a negative for people, if the ultimate conclusion is reached (whether thats dependent of how the person sees themself, or if all the boxes are ticked). I believe its a badge of honour to wear whilst going through it, and shout about it so people can accept and bigotry will end. There are more trans stories than ever before IMO, which will eventually educate even the most retarded mind.

I find it insulting that you think trans people want to identify as the gender they fell they are.

However, food for thought. Thanks for responding, its something I never really considered before.

[Rabbiteyes]

I find your view odd. Surely the term trans(ition) is a misnomer then, because you are by the very definition transitioning, thus taking a journey from male to something that isn't male and is a feminised male.

Is transitioning simply moving from one gender to another?

It is really more of a set of mental, physical, and social changes that a person goes through (regardless of gender). It is a period of coming to terms with these set of changes and sorting through how to function in society within the new confines these changes bring.

While you may feel that trans is not a negative... most of the world does.

That is why trans people tend to run from the stigma associated with being trans (even to the point of denying they are transgender at all, claiming to be simply women with birth defects).

You see, trans people are raised in the same society as everyone else. We have the same prejudices and misconceptions about trans people as anyone does (at least, at the beginning of transition, before sorting out what we are and beginning to take those steps). Heck, I thought that trans people were either cute twinks in porn (who were born that way I thought), or those drag queens in pride parades. Both, as you can imagine, were not very flattering views of trans people or the reality of the situation.

Let's look a little closer at the definitions of "male" and "female" in our society.

Effectively, we live in a rather restrictive set of gender norms (which has only intensified within the last 30 years, to a point where even gender neutral products are beginning to be gendered....razors? Toothbrushes? Shampoo? Often these can be the exact same product, just in different packaging for their "correct gender")

So, when a person is viewed in our culture, we take a mental tally of their "male" and "female" qualities (since, in our culture, every quality is divvied out to be male or female...which is odd, since every human quality can be found in bother genders to one degree or another).

This is really the reason our culture strives to call MTF as "women" (even the trans people themselves, having grown in the same culture).

In our culture, the idea of a male having a certain set of feminine qualities just doesn't make sense.... at a certain point, we collectively decide to call that person female.

This is what happened with me. As I started transitioning, I obtained just a few additional "female" qualities (long hair, subtle redistribution of fat in the face)....and that is when people began to gender me female (and even people would argue with me when I said I identified as male. To them, it simply didn't make sense....a male is not a person with X number of feminine qualities).

This seems rather odd....at least to me. Either I was always female (a claim no one who saw me before would try to make)...or, the couple of feminine qualities that I gained through transition (such as long hair and subtle shift of fat in the face) are the "key" aspects that make a person male or female (again, a rather absurd claim to make).

There are actually a lot of "MTF" trans people who don't quite feel as if they are female.

BUT, things become a bit more messy when society starts to get involved.

You see, first...we have a great deal of pressure to identify as female. Using the male bathroom causes problems. Needing to correct (or sometimes argue) everyone and have lengthy discussions on the nature of gender grows old quickly. And, a range of other rather annoying "quality of life problems" that pop up when general society has a certain way of thinking (X number of feminine qualities = female).

And, it gets even worse when dealing with legal protections or health care. For example, if I want to be covered (or even for me to deal with some doctors for hormones), I need to tote the party line and tell them I believe I am female. That is the only recognized "legitimate" way of being transgendered and receive care. The same is true with bathroom protections or being safer in terms of matching legal documents when traveling (for example, canada has laws against a person who identifies as male but looks female being allowed to fly on airplanes).

Our society has a gross misunderstanding of gender (even with respect to transgender people). It forces us to "get with the program" of a very binary social structure built around gender. It is confining not just for trans people, but actually for cis gendered people as well (as the feminist movement shows, or even the growing discomfort men are showing with being unable to express themselves beyond a very limited range).

Trans people also buy into these ideas (some rather intensely, accepting rather dated ideas of relationship roles...sometimes taking it to a rather extreme level). And, like I said before, some trans internalize what they are being told (and have grown up within) to such a degree that they deny they were ever male in the first place (or even trans).

Here is the thing.....this isn't global. In other cultures, trans people (and their surrounding society) don't view themselves in the same way. There are a variety of ways they consider things.

Personally, I think the 3rd gender probably makes a bit more sense. Instead of trying to rip down the established 2 gender system... it simply adds a 3rd gender which is granted complete freedom of gender expression. It still allows for the binary division in society between genders....while also giving trans people a free pass to do as they wish to whatever degree makes them comfortable (since, well, trans people run a rather large range).

Also, it is a bit more healthy (in my opinion) for MTF to not see themselves as female.

Here is why.

Basically, if you are a MTF and you identify as female....suddenly all of your feminine qualities are "to be expected". The thing is, the male qualities which you still have are sources of "wrong" and undesired. It can cause a person to focus on their masculine qualities (body hair, bone structure, voice) to such a degree as to cause themselves a great deal of distress (for something they really can't help).

If a MTF person identifies as male, on the other hand. Suddenly all of the feminine qualities are amazing gifts and to be celebrated. They are unique, and beautiful (especially being compared against other men). While the masculine qualities left are simply "to be expected" and nothing to be upset about.

The "female world" is a rather harsh one (especially in our society, with the relationship to media and the like). HUGE focus is placed on imperfections and beauty. I really don't know why a trans person would wish that for themselves.

Why not simply embrace femininity (as much as you desire)...and celebrate all that you can achieve in that regard...without ever feeling like you are directly "competing" with cis females? Basically....celebrate being trans, instead of constantly feeling as though you are just a "woman with birth defects".

Or, so, that is how I see it. ;)

I think this probably ended up pretty long :|

[BBaggins06]

Interesting that nobody mentioned the biggest outrage of the weekend's award shows.

Tyler Perry winning the worst actress Razzie for his performance in a Madea Christmas ...

[bte]

I think they should have attempted to find a trans actress to portray the role, but they didn't even attempt that. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Outrage over a straight guy playing a trans role, but would their have been outrage of a trans woman playing an HIV positive hooker? I don't know.

I don't have a problem with Leto playing a trans character, then again I am not trans. Do people have a problem of Neil Patrick Harris playing a straight guy on "How I Met Your Mother"? Did anyone have a problem with Justin Bratha (spelling?) playing a gay character on that show "The New Normal".

I don't know many TS actresses except for a few. Harmony, Laverne, and some of the trans women that played on the movie "Ticked off trannies with knives".

At least his win is getting people talking about trans people in movies.

[EZWind]

This is ridiculous. The Academy give awards to actors and actresses who display RANGE. Leto won that award BECAUSE he's a straight male. It would not have been so impressive an acting job coming from someone who lived that life 24/7.
...I thought the point of contention was that the role should have gone to a TS, not whether or not Leto deserved the award



I wonder if a trans person had played the role, would they have gotten an academy award? We are jumping through too many hoops.
....again, not the point...you're right about the hoops thing, tho



When the character is a woman, you try to find a female actor. When the character is a man, it doesn't hurt to cast a dude in that role.
...not necessarily, Linda Hunt did a fine job as a dude in Year of Living Dangeously


After a while some t-people will get tired of always seeing their kind, in lower class roles, as some Black Americans have.
...true...same for Italians, usually in the Mafia...Irish, usually drunks, etc
...it's a question of what scripts are out there and which ones of those actually go into development


.... there are other variables in the game that go beyond idealistic choice, and in the end, you do what you have to do to get the project going
...exactly right...and one of the main things you have to do is convince the studio that the obscene amount of money they are investing will eventually result in profit....and name recognition has a huge effect on the bottom line. The producers and directors hire people they believe can deliver the most convincing performance and who can best portray the essence of the character. Could a TS have done as well in the role?...quite possibly. Should they have tried to find one?...probably, but that takes a lot of time and money...a coupla those other significant variables. Maybe they decided they could save that extra expense after seeing that Leto's performance would be competent and memorable. It is, after all, show Business. It's not personal...it's business