Do nice guys finish last?

[Curiousguy04]

Why do nice guys finish last? Or is it just me? I was taught to treat people the way i wanted to be treated. I treat women with respect and it seems im always getting looked over for a bad boy. And then later they break up with em because he wasnt what they thought he would be. So am i doing something wrong? I just dont know.

[Infern0]

it's not about being a "bad boy" it's about not being a pussy.

[Instrumental]

You aren't a "nice guy" you're a guy who acts like a door mat and doesn't take any initiative.

Basically what Infern0 said.

[Yeah]

Yes. Always finish last in my experience. Just the way it is. I to always treat people well or even better than they should be treated and get screwed over. As for women I always ended up the nice guy friend while they date badboy types, who treat them shitty and they tell you they wish so and so could be more like you. When the girl gets dumped or kicks the loser to the curb, she will hang out until next loser comes along and drop you like a bad habit. Thats the way it is with certain girls. Plain and simple. They use your company when convient for them and drop you when they want. Because they believe you will always let them come back. Either get use to it or look for a better class of girl with some kind of morals. Forget about the girls you hang out with thinking you have a chance with them if you treat them better than their loser boyfriend. It ain't going to happen. She's got you in the friend/user zone and with girls that are mentally unstable or got seriously screwed up by assholes or just plain like badboys, you are a doormat to them. Thats it. Exccept it and be at their beck and call or find a decent girl. Sorry to rant on bud. I have had some fuck up experiences with some girls that for awhile turned my life into a living hell. Unfortunately I fell in love with a girl who filled my head with the idea that I was so impotant to her and she wouldn't know what she would do if I was in her life, but would never give me chance even though she loved me too. But she wasn't in love with me and a relationship would ruin our friendship. So for years I painfully watch her date and hookup with tons of guys waiting but nothing ever change until she kept distancing herself from me to the point she didn't need me around anymore. So do yourself a favor and forget about the fun time girls and look for quality. You will save yourself alot of pain and torment trying to figure out why certain girls won't look you way. If they won't give you the time of day, then they aren't worth yours period.

[Infern0]

So for years I painfully watch her date and hookup with tons of guys waiting but nothing ever change until she kept distancing herself from me to the point she didn't need me around anymore.

For fucks sakes man

where was your self respect?

[Yeah]

For fucks sakes man

where was your self respect?

Yeah. I know. Really didnt have much back than or experience with women and unfortunately met one who exploited both. The good side of that horrible time is now I see that shit coming a mile away. Lol. Your right. A guy doesn't have to be a badboy or asshole, just don't let a girl take you for granted or be inconsiderate to you. Don't take shit like I did. Kick her in the ass or to the curb. What ever works better for you.

[dderek123]

Shy guys finish last.

[Ben in LA]

Shy guys finish last.
This is true as well.

[fred41]

Also, often guys like girls that are out of their league but don't look at it that way. Often the "bad boys" that they compare themselves too are also better looking or have more charisma...but they figure - if only she sees what a nice guy I am.

[fred41]

it's not about being a "bad boy" it's about not being a pussy.

So true... this should be printed on a T-Shirt.

[trish]

In polite society the bottom is allowed to climax first before the top finishes. It's basic logistics when you think about it.

[my my my!]

in short term dating , 1 month to 2 years (just ballpark figure)...

Nice guys do indeed finish last. Women like the bad boy (i.e. not a pussy), and generally dismiss the nice guys.

fast forward to , the real relationship, the one you might marry 2+ years. The bad boy thing wears off and is no longer attractive to a woman. Well, being nice goes a long way for long term.

Women want to DATE a bad boy, but what really gets them is MARRYING a nice guy.

so Nice guys do finish last, but finish best. (assuming the girl is worth it and Indeed a nice girl herself)

[goatman]

Why? Call it a combination of atavistic hardwiring--basically, we're STILL animals [with MANY a female still seeking to mate with the dominant Alpha male]--and commercial-entertainment/marketing brainswashing[everything broadcast via the market-driven media--i.e people in Hollywood & Madison Ave/Herald Sq trying to play off people's self-esteem/self worth/ self image issues in order to sell shit]...

That shit has a way of backfiring, though...

[GroobySteven]

Nope. Nice guys finish first.

You can't just be "nice" though. You have to team that with confidence. You have to have a sense of humour. You can't just be superficially "nice" - you need to be honest and genuine. You need to engage people in more than "just about you".

Also you can't be "nice" all the time. You need to have principles, stand your ground, defend your position and protect your friends.

Although some might find it hard to believe (from some of the responses I've posted here), I've been a nice guy my whole life. When younger (teens & university) it certainly seemed that being nice wasn't working - but as soon as I found my confidence to be who I wanted to be, and not try to base my persona on what my perception of what was "cool" then it all fell together.

Being nice has enabled me to finish far from last - and usually at the top.

[Prospero]

Nice guys sometimes finish first... and sometimes last. No hard and fast rules in my book. Play it as it lays.

[Jamie French]

It's not being a nice guy. It''s lack of confidence. No one likes an asshole either but everyone likes someone who is on top of their shit and knows what they want. Also, a major turn off is people who complain about the 'nice guy' thing as if simply being a nice guy is all a girl should require. Pointing fingers and complaining about how you don't get anyone because of the way you act means you're essentially self serving and probably couldn't handle the give and take it takes to be in a relationship with a real person anyhow. It's passive aggressive bullshit.

If you've identified that your 'nice guy' personality is the root of the issue but you feel you shouldn't have to change, just admit that you're better off with a real doll and leave the rest of humanity alone.

[goatman]

In my experience, "Nice guys" finish[keyword : "finish"]....
"Bad Boys" ultimately end up as fertilizer...or locked up with WORSE guys like Bubba...
And the girls that pine for them[Bad boys]...? Usually end up ALONE. Either trying to raise a bunch of his[their--'cause she could never stop @just one] kids
alone or relying on her [eventually] fading looks/charms to snag a new sucker...
There's a reason why Neanderthals & Cro-Magnons aren't walking the Earth today in large numbers: CAVEMEN AREN'T BUILT TO LAST...
They have a low life expectancy and any girl "in love"/addicted to them better get used to the idea of a cold & empty cave after the embers of passion have burned out...

Focus on developing yourself into being the best "you" you can be & don't buy into any of the surface b.s. out there...You'll end up happier, healthier, & hopefully that'll attract somebody worthwhile...my twopence...

[lifeisfiction]

Being nice, is not being weak or lack confidence. If you don't know want means to be nice, its to be polite courteous, well spoken and mannered. If those a bad traits well too bad. Even holding doors is something archaic. So being nice is being nice. Why do girls like bad boys, the challenge, false confidence and the fact they have to work harder to get something out of them. If you don't date a bad boy and it goes bad don't complain, you know full well what you are walking into.

From my experience, not every it depends what they are looking for at the moment. But to be honest you have to ask yourself, what do you want. Do you want to get laid well nice guys are looked upon as marriage material not for the now and dirty. Do you want to get laid, well bad boys have aggressive attitude that can seem to satisfy their hunger. Same can be said about nice girls and bad girls. Which one do you prefer will depend on what you are looking for.

[goatman]

Being nice, is not being weak or lack confidence. If you don't know want means to be nice, its to be polite courteous, well spoken and mannered. If those a bad traits well too bad. Even holding doors is something archaic. So being nice is being nice. Why do girls like bad boys, the challenge, false confidence and the fact they have to work harder to get something out of them. If you don't date a bad boy and it goes bad don't complain, you know full well what you are walking into.

From my experience, not every it depends what they are looking for at the moment. But to be honest you have to ask yourself, what do you want. Do you want to get laid well nice guys are looked upon as marriage material not for the now and dirty. Do you want to get laid, well bad boys have aggressive attitude that can seem to satisfy their hunger. Same can be said about nice girls and bad girls. Which one do you prefer will depend on what you are looking for.:iagree: Co-Sign:iagree:

[lifeisfiction]

I do apologize for the grammar, it just annoys me when people really think that being nice is a poor trait.

[Jamie French]

Neanderthals didn't last because they were nowhere near as savage as homo sapiens. WE snuffed them out. Don't think for a minute that our species was any less brutal just because we were built with smoother features. We were cavemen and we were totally built to last.


In my experience, "Nice guys" finish[keyword : "finish"]....
"Bad Boys" ultimately end up as fertilizer...or locked up with WORSE guys like Bubba...
And the girls that pine for them[Bad boys]...? Usually end up ALONE. Either trying to raise a bunch of his[their--'cause she could never stop @just one] kids
alone or relying on her [eventually] fading looks/charms to snag a new sucker...
There's a reason why Neanderthals & Cro-Magnons aren't walking the Earth today in large numbers: CAVEMEN AREN'T BUILT TO LAST...
They have a low life expectancy and any girl "in love"/addicted to them better get used to the idea of a cold & empty cave after the embers of passion have burned out...

Focus on developing yourself into being the best "you" you can be & don't buy into any of the surface b.s. out there...You'll end up happier, healthier, & hopefully that'll attract somebody worthwhile...my twopence...

[Jamie French]

No one thinks that being nice is a poor trait, but if it's your only trait and you take the time to complain about it then you're a shitty under-developed person with no real self awareness or genuine empathy.


I do apologize for the grammar, it just annoys me when people really think that being nice is a poor trait.

[goatman]

The question is: As we develop all this new technolgy & new means to satisfy our wants/needs...are we actually DE-EVOLVING as a species(or at least as a society)? I hold doors open, hold the chair out, light the cigarette(if you actually still smoke), etc because that's how I was RAISED! [My folks are from the South...they didn't stand for anything less.] It's called CIVILITY--i.e. "civilization" for a reason, people! & if you were raised in a gutter[figuratively or literally] and view kindness, politeness, gentility, & chivalry as weakness...that's YOUR shortcoming, not mine! Try me at your risk & be found wanting...[And ALONE waiting for a cab!] I'm not changing my core-hardware to fit in your schedule(or your bed!) I got through 3 plus decades fine without you being me, thank you!
As for the matter unmentioned(but briefly touched upon)..."pussy"["ass", i.e., sex] is not that difficult to get. Love and/or companionship/partnership, that's an altogether different animal...

[Jamie French]

If you do anything simply because that's how you were raised then you've never had a a thought that counts in your life.

I'm polite to people, hold open doors, etc. because I'm genuinely considerate towards other human beings - it feel s good to be nice... NOT because it was how I was raised. What are you, some sort of easily programmed robot or a goddamned fully functional autonomous human being?

This is the difference between people who are merely nice and people who have confidence and a well rounded personality. Sincerity.

[Jamie French]

The truth is people who wear the nice guy tag on their sleeve aren't really nice. They're simply passive. They are taking the path of least resistance in life, the path that requires no self exploration or effort. Then they complain when they aren't rewarded for their surface level pleasantness. Here's a hint, people see right through that bullshit and will leave you hangin' every time. Do the hard thing. Man up.

Take it from me... I live an awesome life, have always had a pretty girlfriend and am held in great esteem by friends, family and business associates alike. I'm proof that the hard way is the right way. Even when I do suffer through awful things, my awful things count so much more because I actually learn something from each shitty experience or instance of rejection.

[Jamie French]

Threads like these have existed ever since the internet provided the meek with a way to vent their frustrations from a safe distance. When will 'nice guys' realize that the conversation NEVER changes. The nice guys always spew the same three or four arguments, they balk at the obvious advice and they never get any further ahead.

You'd think that if there were something fundamentally correct about the whole nice guy thing then you'd see an equal amount of threads coming from douche bags about how nice guys get all the girls. The fight would have some sort of built in equilibrium. The truth is that "nice guys" are just another flavor of douche bag.

[Rusty Eldora]

Yes, it is proper etiquette for the lady to cum first.

[trish]

It is a mistake to interpret “survival of the fittest” to mean “survival of the most aggressive.” The word “fittest” refers to the species that “fits” comfortably within its ecological niche. Sometimes the fittest is the most aggressive. Sometimes it’s the most prolific reproducer. Often the best survival strategies are cooperative. This is especially true of the social, naked primate. We gather in communities, divide labor, take care of the old, the young, the infirm, share resources and form cooperative societies. This has been our survival strategy for tens of thousands of years.

Within a cooperative society there is always a niche for thieves and niches are almost always filled. Thievery takes various forms. Common thieves who work the crowd picking pockets, and sophisticated thieves who scam and swindle sometimes from positions of power within the social hierarchy. They can be businessmen, bankers and office holders. But no matter how ambitious and creative they may be, they are thieves and freeloaders: they do not increase the fitness of the species, they decrease it.

Bad boys can do well and rise to comfortable positions within society. But too many bad boys will drain the resources of their host society, decrease the fitness of that society within the larger environment and may even bring about its collapse.

[goatman]

If you do anything simply because that's how you were raised then you've never had a a thought that counts in your life.

I'm polite to people, hold open doors, etc. because I'm genuinely considerate towards other human beings - it feel s good to be nice... NOT because it was how I was raised. What are you, some sort of easily programmed robot or a goddamned fully functional autonomous human being?

This is the difference between people who are merely nice and people who have confidence and a well rounded personality. Sincerity.Being "raised properly" is not a matter or "being programmed" any more than getting an education["quality" or otherwise]...It's merely a foundation on which to build/form a collection of beliefs, environment/experiences, value system, point of view/way of thinking that hopefully result in a balanced individual...Just like no two individuals are alike, no two experiences are alike...Thus, you can have a person from a "stable" family background turn out to be a "criminal"/"sociopath" vs. someone from a more[allegedly] "deprived" background turning out to be an individual of "good character"...As with everything else, the odds can go either way(depending on the "strength" of the individual...it's just a roll of the dice...

That being said, there's nothing wrong with having a parent/parents somebody teach an individual a system of positive behavioral standards/values system during their formative period[i.e "childhood] in order to convey acceptable survival strategies in order to function in a "civilized" society...We're not raping, pillaging, & eating each other--directly--en masse, anymore(& the ones that DO & see this as normal, they get isolated & given a wide berth. Real Quick, like..)Ultimately, the choice is up to the individual: "I choose to be well-manned, respectful, reasonable, & polite as opposed to murdering/eating people & fucking them in the ass without their consent"...but having that "proper raising/upbringing" as a default/backup towards functioning normally goes a long way...

And it's not weakness to nice or civil...

[Ms.Stepford]

A lot of times when I hear a guy lamenting that his niceness isn't getting him anywhere it's because he's expecting that it will. He's looking at it like he's putting "nice tokens" into a woman, and expecting a return, but he doesn't want to say that because it wouldn't seem nice. So, he pines away in the"friend zone" -which is a bullshit misogynistic term that suggests that there's no reason to be nice to women other than to get into our pants, while we're just thinking "maybe this one actually understands that I don't want to date him, but he genuinely wants to be friends," because that's all they've expressed.

You can avoid these feelings by exposing your intentions outright, then either a.) handling the rejection and moving on, b.) handling the rejection, but sticking around because you genuinely want to be a friend, or c.) success! She's into you!

I can think of more than one occasion when one shy guy has been buying me drinks all night, but not really putting forth any personality, expecting that I'm going to make all the actual social interaction effort while he sits there undressing me in his head, following me like a puppy dog, and waiting for me to get drunk enough to hook up with him (ha! I'm from Buffalo, sweetie). Then some guy who's actually attractive to me comes around, and the chemistry is all there right up to the point when he invites me to his place, and the poor nice guy is wondering why his subtle approach didn't work. Well, it was too subtle, and under the false pretense of just being a genuinely nice guy. If he were confident enough (and competent -let's face it. A lot of guys really have no "game") to actually flirt rather than play coy and nice games, I'd have just told him I wasn't seeing him like that and bought my own drinks. Of course it's too much to ask that he recognize that I was consciously making sure that I wasn't sending any signals that could be interpreted as leading him on.

Now, this is not a suggestion that you try some PUA techniques, because any girl who's been around the block is done falling for those.

Just be yourself and make your intentions clear. It's better for your self-esteem and your wallet.

[lifeisfiction]

No one thinks that being nice is a poor trait, but if it's your only trait and you take the time to complain about it then you're a shitty under-developed person with no real self awareness or genuine empathy.

I don't think you have a clue what it means to be nice and being nice is never a sole trait. Now I could dissect your response cause it has, ummmm how do you put it has unnecessary aggression about people being nice. The big picture and what you have a problem with is the assumption that being nice is weak. Or this person was simply saying his only gift in life is being nice. No one has one sole trait, if you find a person who fits the description you can have a million dollars. Or even worse thinking being kind means letting people walk over you, because you have lack some sort of self confidence.

That is where you misjudge the individual or misunderstand being kind. To be polite takes more will power to than to just shut someone down. It takes maturity to handle situation with proper decorum and mannerism. A lot times people who tend to be bad boys in my experience are the most immature, childish people. Bad boys comes in all shapes and forms. I rather be kind and polite out of common courtesy then to be nasty rude for no reason at all. If you let people walkover well then you need to find the confidence in yourself. Nor is anyone defined by one trait.

Now I don't know the person and neither do you, but based on what he was asking is simple legitimate question. Sharing experiences help people decide what path to continue on. If he finds it to be of more value of what you or I say well he will choose it, but to chide someone for saying it makes no sense.

[EvaCassini]

I believe what she means, the point that is being passed over and missed...is the difference between a "learned behavior" and "genuine nicety and intent"

Yes, you can be taught right from wrong, but that still doesn't mean one will be genuine about their behavior. If you are doing something seemingly nice just because it is now a habitual action/reaction, is not genuine.

To do something with genuine intent carries much more weight and is noticed far better.

Ask yourself, why hold the door open for a lady? Why help her with her luggage? Why light her cigarette?

Are you prepared to continue holding the door for the old man waddling behind her? I am most certain I would be impressed if you continued to hold the door open for him, just out of the pure kindness in your heart, instead of being selfish by just letting me through, hoping to get into my skirt by the end of dinner.

Are you prepared to carry all the luggage or just one bag? How many bags constitutes the proper level of niceness?

Are you purposefully carrying a lighter just to engage in meaningless babble? I understand chivalry but I am quite competent in lighting my own cigarette. Especially when I am holding a lighter at the ready.

Niceties are nice, but when genuine intent is shown, your deeds will be noticed. You will be held in much higher regard.

Why common courtesy? Why not implement UNCOMMON courtesy?

It's like trying to join the military to do anything and everything just to achieve being awarded the Medal of Honor or Victorian Cross, but then never getting it. Why?

Because its not about your outside appearance and superficial actions.

It's about showing genuine intent, honor, and integrity.

Going above and beyond the call of duty.

Doing more then what is expected.

[Jamie French]

Dude, simplify your point... stop using unnecessary brackets, refine your language. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Communication skills - lacking.


Being "raised properly" is not a matter or "being programmed" any more than getting an education["quality" or otherwise]...It's merely a foundation on which to build/form a collection of beliefs, environment/experiences, value system, point of view/way of thinking that hopefully result in a balanced individual...Just like no two individuals are alike, no two experiences are alike...Thus, you can have a person from a "stable" family background turn out to be a "criminal"/"sociopath" vs. someone from a more[allegedly] "deprived" background turning out to be an individual of "good character"...As with everything else, the odds can go either way(depending on the "strength" of the individual...it's just a roll of the dice...

That being said, there's nothing wrong with having a parent/parents somebody teach an individual a system of positive behavioral standards/values system during their formative period[i.e "childhood] in order to convey acceptable survival strategies in order to function in a "civilized" society...We're not raping, pillaging, & eating each other--directly--en masse, anymore(& the ones that DO & see this as normal, they get isolated & given a wide berth. Real Quick, like..)Ultimately, the choice is up to the individual: "I choose to be well-manned, respectful, reasonable, & polite as opposed to murdering/eating people & fucking them in the ass without their consent"...but having that "proper raising/upbringing" as a default/backup towards functioning normally goes a long way...

And it's not weakness to nice or civil...

[Jamie French]

I've been on this planet for 34 years, I've been around, I lead a very colorful and rich life, I'm in the business of knowing people. There are only like 20 or so different personality types... I can call a spade a spade. Even if the OP ain't the spade I called him, my words still hold true for other douche bags. Step off.


I don't think you have a clue what it means to be nice and being nice is never a sole trait. Now I could dissect your response cause it has, ummmm how do you put it has unnecessary aggression about people being nice. The big picture and what you have a problem with is the assumption that being nice is weak. Or this person was simply saying his only gift in life is being nice. No one has one sole trait, if you find a person who fits the description you can have a million dollars. Or even worse thinking being kind means letting people walk over you, because you have lack some sort of self confidence.

That is where you misjudge the individual or misunderstand being kind. To be polite takes more will power to than to just shut someone down. It takes maturity to handle situation with proper decorum and mannerism. A lot times people who tend to be bad boys in my experience are the most immature, childish people. Bad boys comes in all shapes and forms. I rather be kind and polite out of common courtesy then to be nasty rude for no reason at all. If you let people walkover well then you need to find the confidence in yourself. Nor is anyone defined by one trait.

Now I don't know the person and neither do you, but based on what he was asking is simple legitimate question. Sharing experiences help people decide what path to continue on. If he finds it to be of more value of what you or I say well he will choose it, but to chide someone for saying it makes no sense.

[runningdownthatdream]

Why do nice guys finish last? Or is it just me? I was taught to treat people the way i wanted to be treated. I treat women with respect and it seems im always getting looked over for a bad boy. And then later they break up with em because he wasnt what they thought he would be. So am i doing something wrong? I just dont know.

There's a really fine line between being a 'nice' guy and being a doormat - and while doormats may be useful they become less attractive over time. As with anything else in life, a balanced personality will go a long way towards being in a successful relationship.

You mention being respectful - what do you mean by that?

[runningdownthatdream]

Yes. Always finish last in my experience. Just the way it is. I to always treat people well or even better than they should be treated and get screwed over. As for women I always ended up the nice guy friend while they date badboy types, who treat them shitty and they tell you they wish so and so could be more like you. When the girl gets dumped or kicks the loser to the curb, she will hang out until next loser comes along and drop you like a bad habit. Thats the way it is with certain girls. Plain and simple. They use your company when convient for them and drop you when they want. Because they believe you will always let them come back. Either get use to it or look for a better class of girl with some kind of morals. Forget about the girls you hang out with thinking you have a chance with them if you treat them better than their loser boyfriend. It ain't going to happen. She's got you in the friend/user zone and with girls that are mentally unstable or got seriously screwed up by assholes or just plain like badboys, you are a doormat to them. Thats it. Exccept it and be at their beck and call or find a decent girl. Sorry to rant on bud. I have had some fuck up experiences with some girls that for awhile turned my life into a living hell. Unfortunately I fell in love with a girl who filled my head with the idea that I was so impotant to her and she wouldn't know what she would do if I was in her life, but would never give me chance even though she loved me too. But she wasn't in love with me and a relationship would ruin our friendship. So for years I painfully watch her date and hookup with tons of guys waiting but nothing ever change until she kept distancing herself from me to the point she didn't need me around anymore. So do yourself a favor and forget about the fun time girls and look for quality. You will save yourself alot of pain and torment trying to figure out why certain girls won't look you way. If they won't give you the time of day, then they aren't worth yours period.

Not trying to be hurtful but I think you need to boost your self-esteem. It isn't about 'them' at all and everything to do with you. Respect yourself and demand respect from others and you'll notice how you'll be treated differently by women AND men.

[lifeisfiction]

Well I disagree with you and Eva. I disagree with Eva for the mere fact that being rude, impolite does not make a person genuine. A genuine person is true to ones self, it does not mean having a certain way of communication makes the person genuine. Nor does being polite make a person less genuine or on the other side more so of a real person. I think Jamie a lot times you assume too much about things and it leads you to misjudge situations and people. There is a lot to life and the greatest students of life are the ones who are always willing to learn.

[runningdownthatdream]

In polite society the bottom is allowed to climax first before the top finishes. It's basic logistics when you think about it.

Yes, you are so right about this (even if you're being tongue in cheek, are you?)

[runningdownthatdream]

It's not being a nice guy. It''s lack of confidence. No one likes an asshole either but everyone likes someone who is on top of their shit and knows what they want. Also, a major turn off is people who complain about the 'nice guy' thing as if simply being a nice guy is all a girl should require. Pointing fingers and complaining about how you don't get anyone because of the way you act means you're essentially self serving and probably couldn't handle the give and take it takes to be in a relationship with a real person anyhow. It's passive aggressive bullshit.

If you've identified that your 'nice guy' personality is the root of the issue but you feel you shouldn't have to change, just admit that you're better off with a real doll and leave the rest of humanity alone.

............................and you fuck l like a champ too! what more could a guy ask for :Bowdown:

[goatman]

Nice guy no loser. Nice guy winner. Nice guy no loser just cause tv box, diamond merchant, bad boy, & fickle pretty girl say he loser. Nice guy nice because inside he nice & stay true to self no matter what fickle pretty girl, bad boy, & tv say. Maybe learn from nice parents who say "be nice". No programming, it just work. All nice people together make "civilized society" which is mostly nice place to live. And it better than getting axe in forehead or shotgun in mouth.

Nice guy win because unlike bad boy, nice guy no get knock on door at six in morning from not so nice police. Nice guy no fear knock on door; no fear phone call demand money. Nice guy no worry look over shoulder from not nice people he fuck over like bad boy. No end up in trunk, no end up in ditch, no end up in bottom of lake. No end up with three strikes twenty to life being girlfriend to Bubba who really NOT NICE!!

Nice guy no need fickle pretty girl who want bad boy, jewelry, money, free food & everything else girlfriends & stupid tv people say because her crazy anyway. Pretty fickle girl never satisfied, that's why fickle that's why crazy.
Pretty fickle girl should do like great Biz Markie say & "Hit the streets & do [her] own mugging!" But not happen. Been that way since beginning. Eventually, her end up lonely & bitter. And old, looks no last. Maybe with more than one bad boys kids cuz her not stop. Maybe end up locked up like bad boy. Maybe sent to rubber room.

All work out in end. Nice guy stay nice, find SANE nice girl. If want relationship. At very least, sex no hard to get if have $$. Not hard, even when nice guy is.
End. Simple Enough?

[tsmirandameadows]

nope. Nice guys finish first.

You can't just be "nice" though. You have to team that with confidence. You have to have a sense of humour. You can't just be superficially "nice" - you need to be honest and genuine. You need to engage people in more than "just about you".

Also you can't be "nice" all the time. You need to have principles, stand your ground, defend your position and protect your friends.

Although some might find it hard to believe (from some of the responses i've posted here), i've been a nice guy my whole life. When younger (teens & university) it certainly seemed that being nice wasn't working - but as soon as i found my confidence to be who i wanted to be, and not try to base my persona on what my perception of what was "cool" then it all fell together.

Being nice has enabled me to finish far from last - and usually at the top.

qft.

[EvaCassini]

Well I disagree with you and Eva. I disagree with Eva for the mere fact that being rude, impolite does not make a person genuine. A genuine person is true to ones self, it does not mean having a certain way of communication makes the person genuine. Nor does being polite make a person less genuine or on the other side more so of a real person. I think Jamie a lot times you assume too much about things and it leads you to misjudge situations and people. There is a lot to life and the greatest students of life are the ones who are always willing to learn.

Then your comprehension skills are at an all time low if you didn't understand what I said. Re-read. Repeat at least 9 times. Then if you still have the same answer then you are not comprehending what I mean. I'm serious, I am not joking, and I mean not to offend. Seriously, if you can't take what I said and pick out the meaning, and understand, then hope is lost.

[goatman]

Dude, simplify your point... stop using unnecessary brackets, refine your language. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Communication skills - lacking.Guess I better call the Board of Regents of the University System of Maryland & tell 'em they can have their Degree back...
Wonder if it's too late to ask for a REFUND? $$$


And BTW, the brackets [], dashes--, & ellipses ... are what I call my "poetic license"...it's just a way (MY WAY) of stating that my thoughts/feelings are ever-evolving & constantly in motion, even when I'm putting them in print...
[just my lil' creative quirk when i'm on forum/op boards & social media...]

[runningdownthatdream]

Guess I better call the Board of Regents of the University System of Maryland & tell 'em they can have their Degree back...
Wonder if it's too late to ask for a REFUND? $$$


And BTW, the brackets [], dashes--, & ellipses ... are what I call my "poetic license"...it's just a way (MY WAY) of stating that my thoughts/feelings are ever-evolving & constantly in motion, even when I'm putting them in print...
[just my lil' creative quirk when i'm on forum/op boards & social media...]

...............looks like someone or something's got your Goat, man!

In all seriousness though, if you need to pull out some little certificate to qualify your ability to communicate then you probably should call the University of Maryland and return it. I think I get what you're trying to say but think also that your words are getting in the way of your thoughts - just a thought ;)

[goatman]

...............looks like someone or something's got your Goat, man!

In all seriousness though, if you need to pull out some little certificate to qualify your ability to communicate then you probably should call the University of Maryland and return it. I think I get what you're trying to say but think also that your words are getting in the way of your thoughts - just a thought ;)
"Well, if you can't laugh at yourself..."--Bill Clinton, Family Guy LOL:joke::iagree:
I think you got it...(little self-deprecating humor) & I nearly did catch the GOAT pun[nice!]
Yeah, everybody from my parents, to teachers, professors, co-workers, ex-girlfriends, and ONE PARTICULAR DRILL INSTRUCTOR have at one time or another all said the same thing....

"YOU THINK TOO MUCH!!" ;)

[Jamie French]

If a person is genuinely impolite and and rude then that is exactly genuine. Since when does being genuine only count in matters of positive traits?

BUT, none of that even matters... that's all red hearing stuff meant to detract from the subject at hand.

The actual, non internet, real life facts of the matter will continue to play out as they always have. Confident, outgoing, productive people like myself will have really cool lives full of stories and experiences and we won't ever complain about how we're treated by society, (ahem - girls)

Others... won't.

Argue all you want with that, but I have porn to shoot, girls to fuck and an album to produce so I gotsta' go.



Well I disagree with you and Eva. I disagree with Eva for the mere fact that being rude, impolite does not make a person genuine. A genuine person is true to ones self, it does not mean having a certain way of communication makes the person genuine. Nor does being polite make a person less genuine or on the other side more so of a real person. I think Jamie a lot times you assume too much about things and it leads you to misjudge situations and people. There is a lot to life and the greatest students of life are the ones who are always willing to learn.

[Jamie French]

Dude, you're thick and you suck. You ought to get a refund because no one taught you the importance of brevity or balance in writing when trying to make a persuasive argument.

Poetic license? What a cunt. Writers like you punish your readers with each and every unnecessary Obfuscation. You should be bared from writing anything.

Oh look! I went to college, I have lifetime debt! Google is free and nobody told me!


Guess I better call the Board of Regents of the University System of Maryland & tell 'em they can have their Degree back...
Wonder if it's too late to ask for a REFUND? $$$


And BTW, the brackets [], dashes--, & ellipses ... are what I call my "poetic license"...it's just a way (MY WAY) of stating that my thoughts/feelings are ever-evolving & constantly in motion, even when I'm putting them in print...
[just my lil' creative quirk when i'm on forum/op boards & social media...]

[goatman]

Dude, you're thick and you suck. You ought to get a refund because no one taught you the importance of brevity or balance in writing when trying to make a persuasive argument.

Poetic license? What a cunt. Writers like you punish your readers with each and every unnecessary Obfuscation. You should be bared from writing anything.

Oh look! I went to college, I have lifetime debt! Google is free and nobody told me!
You left out "NARCISSIST", "Bombastic, Pompous Ass", "Brillant but vapid ultimately lazy pseudo-intellectual", "Creative but undisciplined asshole" & "Well-Mannered, borderline sociopath":);)

Nope..., Not on ANY pape:r never had a loan don't owe a thing...(thank you work-study, parttime hours at Kaiser Permanente, various white-collar jobs & Uncle Sam for all those frequent deployments that really saved my ass back when I thought plastic & "keeping up with the Joneses" was the American Dream.") I may not get to Heaven, but at least no Big Bank owns my soul--or my ASS!

[Jamie French]

Nah, you're none of those things. You're writing would be engaging if that were the case. You're milquetoast, retire weary and miserable at 65, middle management material at best.


You left out "NARCISSIST", "Bombastic, Pompous Ass", "Brillant but vapid ultimately lazy pseudo-intellectual", "Creative but undisciplined asshole" & "Well-Mannered, borderline sociopath"<3 <3 <3:);)

[GroobySteven]

Guess I better call the Board of Regents of the University System of Maryland & tell 'em they can have their Degree back...
Wonder if it's too late to ask for a REFUND? $$$


If it was in communication studies, you should probably ask for a refund.

[NRT]

a couple of tunes that may go well with this thread (tongue firmly in cheek btw)

slick rick - treat her like a prostitute - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-rSg2edUJk)




Ain&#39;t Gonna Pay One Red Cent (Vocal).mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by2u3LVg9IY)

[goatman]

Nah, you're none of those things. You're writing would be engaging if that were the case. You're milquetoast, retire weary and miserable at 65, middle management material at best. You're off by about 23 years(come Sunday), one vacated "high-shine, no finish" commission sales stint in Retail Hell, one political grass-roots door-knocker gig for the Big Man @ 1600 Penn Ave, N.W., 1 decent LSAT score, several botched attempts at Graduate School(notably Johns Hopkins), one high[at the time] paying- under appreciated whipping boy teaching job, 4.2 years protecting Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, & North Texas from Al-Qaeda( by carrying an m16A2 rifle, an m9 pistol & polishing a gate shack with my ass) , 2 years as a "legally-licensed drug dealer" 5 years college(1 year private liberal arts, 4 years State), high school in the 80's(2.5 Catholic, 1.5 public), 1 "fair-to Middlen" SAT score, 1 HIGH ACT score, a mixed-portmanteau/hodgepodge primary education[read: "Montessori-Catholic-public], 2 Ataris, 1 Sega, 1 NES, 1 N64, 2 pawned-PlayStation2s, 1 pawned-xbox, 4 destroyed cars(all high performance), 1 under-appreciated & under-obedience trained Beagle, 1 German Shepherd puppy dead from dysentery, 1 half-sister whom I didn't meet until I was 20, 1 full-sister I still can't figure out, 4 failed engagements(the most recent one in Vegas), 1 possible "love child" in North Texas, 1 one-night stand(possibly resulting in afore-mention possible "love child" in North Texas), 13 ex-girlfriends(8 of whom were strippers-I mean "exotic dancers"), 3 girlfriends who were directly or indirectly separated from me(because of my race/ethnic origin), 2 beautifully aging Southern-born parents that I admittedly put through Hell when I was younger, numerous exasperated/frustrated/disappointed friends, extended family members, teachers, college professor(one of whom a noted & internationally recognized Shakespeare scholar)& clergy(of both the Roman Catholic AND the A.M.E. faith), 3 Company-Grade Officers of the United States Air Force, at least 7-10 non-commissioned officers of the afore-mentioned United States Air Force(including 2 1st Sergeants & 2 former Marines, of whom WAS a FIRST SGT!) one shrink, one life-coach, 1 embarrassed morally-outraged guidance counselor & one embarrassed & SIGNIFICANTLY outraged Mensa recruiter....& one pissed off college fraternity and a private liberal arts college in Atlanta, Ga that COULD NOT BELIEVE that I turned them down in order to attend college in Tidewater Virginia....:whistle:

And of course the numerously pleasurable run-ins with beer, wine, various spirits, cannabis, & adult service providers:)(but I'm not bragging)...

And did I mention that I'm also bi/pan-sexual(& finally comfortable with it)?:salad:fuckin:

"And still, I rise"--Maya Angelou

[lifeisfiction]

Interesting discourse about simply being nice. Never thought to strive for good traits would be something considered bad. Life is not in a bubble and the world is bigger than the corner of our neighborhood. It is sadly true, what measure you give is the measure you will receive.

[Jamie French]

You think you're winning a debate by shoving right past what people are saying and projecting you're own convoluted interpretations on to the other side's arguments. That's a pale fuckin' maneuver dude.


Interesting discourse about simply being nice. Never thought to strive for good traits would be something considered bad. Life is not in a bubble and the world is bigger than the corner of our neighborhood. It is sadly true, what measure you give is the measure you will receive.

[Jamie French]

Saw all the brackets, numbers and commas and didn't even bother to read what is obviously a headache written out in long form. You don't even know you're a punchline.


You're off by about 23 years(come Sunday), one vacated "high-shine, no finish" commission sales stint in Retail Hell, one political grass-roots door-knocker gig for the Big Man @ 1600 Penn Ave, N.W., 1 decent LSAT score, several botched attempts at Graduate School(notably Johns Hopkins), one high[at the time] paying- under appreciated whipping boy teaching job, 4.2 years protecting Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, & North Texas from Al-Qaeda( by carrying an m16A2 rifle, an m9 pistol & polishing a gate shack with my ass) , 2 years as a "legally-licensed drug dealer" 5 years college(1 year private liberal arts, 4 years State), high school in the 80's(2.5 Catholic, 1.5 public), 1 "fair-to Middlen" SAT score, 1 HIGH ACT score, a mixed-portmanteau/hodgepodge primary education[read: "Montessori-Catholic-public], 2 Ataris, 1 Sega, 1 NES, 1 N64, 2 pawned-PlayStation2s, 1 pawned-xbox, 4 destroyed cars(all high performance), 1 under-appreciated & under-obedience trained Beagle, 1 German Shepherd puppy dead from dysentery, 1 half-sister whom I didn't meet until I was 20, 1 full-sister I still can't figure out, 4 failed engagements(the most recent one in Vegas), 1 possible "love child" in North Texas, 1 one-night stand(possibly resulting in afore-mention possible "love child" in North Texas), 13 ex-girlfriends(8 of whom were strippers-I mean "exotic dancers"), 3 girlfriends who were directly or indirectly separated from me(because of my race/ethnic origin), 2 beautifully aging Southern-born parents that I admittedly put through Hell when I was younger, numerous exasperated/frustrated/disappointed friends, extended family members, teachers, college professor(one of whom a noted & internationally recognized Shakespeare scholar)& clergy(of both the Roman Catholic AND the A.M.E. faith), 3 Company-Grade Officers of the United States Air Force, at least 7-10 non-commissioned officers of the afore-mentioned United States Air Force(including 2 1st Sergeants & 2 former Marines, of whom WAS a FIRST SGT!) one shrink, one life-coach, 1 embarrassed morally-outraged guidance counselor & one embarrassed & SIGNIFICANTLY outraged Mensa recruiter....& one pissed off college fraternity and a private liberal arts college in Atlanta, Ga that COULD NOT BELIEVE that I turned them down in order to attend college in Tidewater Virginia....:whistle:

And of course the numerously pleasurable run-ins with beer, wine, various spirits, cannabis, & adult service providers:)(but I'm not bragging)...

And did I mention that I'm also bi/pan-sexual(& finally comfortable with it)?:salad:fuckin:

"And still, I rise"--Maya Angelou

[lifeisfiction]

You think you're winning a debate by shoving right past what people are saying and projecting you're own convoluted interpretations on to the other side's arguments. That's a pale fuckin' maneuver dude.

The comment wasn't about you, nor was my statement about you. Its an observation on the matter. I never found your point valid or the reason behind it to warrant me to continue. If I wanted to refer to you I would, when there is no more benefit to the matter, nor do I care enough to continue. It wasn't a debate it was different opinions. Debates people actually try to view another's view point, this is not the case. I can watch some political debate TV and get more satisfaction. The statement I made is an observation. If wanted to win debate I would. I just don't care enough to continue the discussion.

[fred41]

Why do nice guys finish last? Or is it just me? I was taught to treat people the way i wanted to be treated. I treat women with respect and it seems im always getting looked over for a bad boy. And then later they break up with em because he wasnt what they thought he would be. So am i doing something wrong? I just dont know.

I believe the girls and some of the guys have this correct.
If you read the OPS actual statement, note the phrasing in bold. Does anyone honestly believe a person is always going to get overlooked because he is simply a nice guy?

[broncofan]

You're off by about 23 years(come Sunday), one vacated "high-shine, no finish" commission sales stint in Retail Hell, one political grass-roots door-knocker gig for the Big Man @ 1600 Penn Ave, N.W., 1 decent LSAT score, several botched attempts at Graduate School(notably Johns Hopkins), one high[at the time] paying- under appreciated whipping boy teaching job, 4.2 years protecting Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, & North Texas from Al-Qaeda( by carrying an m16A2 rifle, an m9 pistol & polishing a gate shack with my ass) , 2 years as a "legally-licensed drug dealer" 5 years college(1 year private liberal arts, 4 years State), high school in the 80's(2.5 Catholic, 1.5 public), 1 "fair-to Middlen" SAT score, 1 HIGH ACT score, a mixed-portmanteau/hodgepodge primary education[read: "Montessori-Catholic-public], 2 Ataris, 1 Sega, 1 NES, 1 N64, 2 pawned-PlayStation2s, 1 pawned-xbox, 4 destroyed cars(all high performance), 1 under-appreciated & under-obedience trained Beagle, 1 German Shepherd puppy dead from dysentery, 1 half-sister whom I didn't meet until I was 20, 1 full-sister I still can't figure out, 4 failed engagements(the most recent one in Vegas), 1 possible "love child" in North Texas, 1 one-night stand(possibly resulting in afore-mention possible "love child" in North Texas), 13 ex-girlfriends(8 of whom were strippers-I mean "exotic dancers"), 3 girlfriends who were directly or indirectly separated from me(because of my race/ethnic origin), 2 beautifully aging Southern-born parents that I admittedly put through Hell when I was younger, numerous exasperated/frustrated/disappointed friends, extended family members, teachers, college professor(one of whom a noted & internationally recognized Shakespeare scholar)& clergy(of both the Roman Catholic AND the A.M.E. faith), 3 Company-Grade Officers of the United States Air Force, at least 7-10 non-commissioned officers of the afore-mentioned United States Air Force(including 2 1st Sergeants & 2 former Marines, of whom WAS a FIRST SGT!) one shrink, one life-coach, 1 embarrassed morally-outraged guidance counselor & one embarrassed & SIGNIFICANTLY outraged Mensa recruiter....& one pissed off college fraternity and a private liberal arts college in Atlanta, Ga that COULD NOT BELIEVE that I turned them down in order to attend college in Tidewater Virginia....:whistle:

And of course the numerously pleasurable run-ins with beer, wine, various spirits, cannabis, & adult service providers:)(but I'm not bragging)...

And did I mention that I'm also bi/pan-sexual(& finally comfortable with it)?:salad:fuckin:

"And still, I rise"--Maya Angelou
I'm not saying this to be mean. I actually did read your post. This is one dreadful post, with 20 completely irrelevant pieces of information, three wholly unnecessary ellipses, expressed in one outrageously pretentious writing style.

[goatman]

If it was in communication studies, you should probably ask for a refund.
Nah, English....
I was TOO LAZY for Comm.:)

[goatman]

I'm not saying this to be mean. I actually did read your post. This is one dreadful post, with 20 completely irrelevant pieces of information, three wholly unnecessary ellipses, expressed in one outrageously pretentious writing style.
Yep.

[Jamie French]

Obviously.

PROTIP: Self deprecation won't save you on these boards. This isn't 8Mile.
You suck plain and simple.


Nah, English....
I was TOO LAZY for Comm.:)

[goatman]

Obviously.

PROTIP: Self deprecation won't save you on these boards. This isn't 8Mile.
You suck plain and simple.
And how do you KNOW that I'm seeking SALVATION, Jamie?

I could just be standing on the accelerator to see how fast I can go before the inevitable crash.:)

I may "suck" but I don't let it define me or color my perception of the world.

I do the best I can to be the best "me" I can be, treat others fairly & justly, & not take myself too seriously!:)

[goatman]

8 Mile. Hmm. Interesting you brought that up...

Real Hip-hop died with 'Pac & Biggie. 1996. :Bowdown:
The "Boy Wonder" from Detroit & those Clowns from New Orleans were but the first carrion-feeders to pick at the corpse.

[Jamie French]

Changing the subject won't work either. I'm gonna bash you till you disappear from this thread.


8 Mile. Hmm. Interesting you brought that up...

Real Hip-hop died with 'Pac & Biggie. 1996. :Bowdown:
The "Boy Wonder" from Detroit & those Clowns from New Orleans were but the first carrion-feeders to pick at the corpse.

[goatman]

Changing the subject won't work either. I'm gonna bash you till you disappear from this thread.
Then, you're really not giving me much incentive to leave the thread.

[Ben]

Why do nice guys finish last? Or is it just me? I was taught to treat people the way i wanted to be treated. I treat women with respect and it seems im always getting looked over for a bad boy. And then later they break up with em because he wasnt what they thought he would be. So am i doing something wrong? I just dont know.

You can only be yourself.
And, too, the notion of so-called masculinity is a social construct. Not a scientific one. And, of course, it's influenced by the culture. I mean, we learn what it means to be masculine. We all watch Sly Stallone movies, Arnie Schwarzenegger movies. So the culture teaches us what it means to be a so-called man. (Imagine if males were taught that to be masculine means to be: moral, kind and caring.)
Instead we're taught that we have to be aggressive, violent, in control. That's the social construct of masculinity.
Anyway, also... there are plenty of women &/or transgender women that gravitate to men who are kind and sensitive. I mean, in terms of long-term relationships, well, things change. The so-called bad boy isn't overly attractive.

[Jericho]

A thread about being nice turns into an argument...Welcome to HA! :dead-1:

[goatman]

It wasn't changing the subject, Jamie, it was weaving an example into the larger tapestry.

Style. What is style? Describe style. Who's to say what's stylistically correct?

The critics? They make their living off bashing other people's work, dashing their dreams. For they have none of their own. Think about it, if a wise man offers you a great truth of life that enriches you and enlightens, does it matter if he's dressed in a Brooks Brothers suit or homespun rags? The critics will pick him to death, regardless. And the message will be lost on them because they cannot see beyond.

The imitators? Aka the "copycats"? Well, they're simply proof that the original was right on the mark. All they did was chew up the work and regurgitate it for mass consumption(and mass profits.) If I took you out to a fancy restaurant, ordered a $20 steak, chewed it up for you and regurgitated it in your mouth, would it still taste as good?

Don't even get me started on the producer-mogul type profiteers. All they care about is profits. Aesthetics, beauty, truth, and "art for art's sake" be damned, it's all lost on them. Making sells, moving units, & profit margins make their eyes gleam. "Sell more shit, make more money, pay less taxes, damn the consequences!" Sound familiar. Trust me, I've been around a lot of slick salesman in my day; once upon a time, I was WELL on the path to become one! If there's a market for dogshit--and there probably is, somewhere--, they're selling it to any and all buyers and convincing them it smells like roses. When I trained people, I used to tell 'em " A good salesman can sell charcoal to the sinners in Hell; a GREAT ONE will convince 'em it's ice cubes!"

No, it's the innovators, the iconoclasts, the rebels who throw the rule book out and say "FUCK CONVENTION! This IS WHAT I SEE, FEEL, and EXPERIENCE in this moment and this is the means by which I CHOOSE to express it, fuck if you follow me!" It'll scare more than a few off( most people like conformity after all). But maybe the point will get across to one or two; and they tell one or two, and so on... Or not. At least the artist/speaker/author got their point across, rather than let the moment pass in frustration. From void and or nothing they bring forth something.

(How this relates to Real Hip-hop--no quotes"", it was REAL!)
When the movement began almost four decades ago, it wasn't big-league record companies or Top 40 radio stations that created it. It was people who had "nothing" comparatively speaking, who created "SOMETHING" from that nothing. And that something was as BEAUTIFUL as the nothing from whence it came was STARK, UGLY, CHAOS, & VOID. It was AMERICAN HISTORY--unplugged, unfiltered, and un-condensed--repeating itself. As it was in the BELLY of the SHIPS. As it was in the FIELDS. As it was in the CHURCH PEWS, the JUKE JOINTS, & the JAZZ CLUBS. As it was at the CROSSROADS & the BUS STATIONS & THE LUNCH COUNTERS. So it was in the South Bronx, Queens, Philly, Chi-town and South Central. It was people telling the world "Yes, we EXIST! NO, we will not GO QUIETLY. This is OUR SURROUNDINGS & OUR CIRCUMSTANCES. We don't have Dan Rather or Walter Cronkite, but THIS IS THE NEWS!" They told what was happening and what was happening behind the happenings(aka, the "Ulterior motives", the glad-handing, the back-room deals & the maneuvering behind the scenes.) They TOLD THE TRUTH TO POWER, which is what any good artist/rebel does; they threw down the gauntlet to those in charge. And their audience LOVED them for it! Because it was for them--to hell with the outsiders! The were continuing the winds of protest from a generation before.

But to quote one of my favorite movies: "Successful can be as formidable as the strongest adversary."(Conan the Barbarian) They got TOO successful and attracted the same bottom-feeders that did in Jazz, Rock, & the Blues. The POWERFUL could not believe that these NOBODIES with their bootleg tapes & basement record labels could accomplish so much! HOW DARE THEY! WHO WERE THEY? And most importantly, how could they make some money where money mattered? Where some saw CONTROVERSY, the moguls saw COMMERCIAL UNITS MOVED. Where others saw resistance, they saw DOLLAR SIGNS. Where others saw THE STRUGGLE & THE PROJECTS, the moguls saw burgeoning markets in the SUBURBS. They had more money and access than some people had seen in their entire lives. And they used it: pre-sales, dollars, movies, drugs, cars, women, sex. They appeased appetites & fluffed egos. They had a proven track record that NO performer could resist. And so, the marketeers & their cronies, flunkies, & stooges moved in....

and a movement was lost.

Now--if you're still with me-- how does this tie in with the theme of "Do Nice Guys Finish Last?"

If you let someone else define you, be it television, Hollywood movie, commercial, advertisements, marketeers, the internet, facebook, twitter, "the cool kids" from 10th grade(who usually haven't matured beyond 10th grade--20 years later), the World, the Flesh, the Devil & Uncle Charles tell you you have to be like somebody else or follow somebody else's "rules to success" or buy brand X or be-in-a-relationship-&-fuck-the living out of boy/girl that looks like[fill in the blank] in order to validate yourself/ your sense of self...they've already won. If you're nice and can hold your ground being nice & staying true to yourself, you've already won. Fuck if "Hot-Girl" always goes with "Bad-Boy" & you're left holding the roses; PLANT A ROSE GARDEN. Don't fixate yourself on what "Bad-Boy", "Jock-Boy", "Alpha-Male/Female Movie Star" & Mr. & Mrs. Jones have that you don't... Odds are they're just as miserable as you THINK you are, and in twice as much trouble and twice as much debt. Love & Sex should not be a "zero-sum, winner take all" game; I don't care how many commercials or salespeople hawk how much shit to prey on peoples' fears of "I'm a loser! I'm gonna end up lonely!" (And I KNOW whose Garden my feet are planted in while I'm spouting this shit.)

Be you. Innovate. Know Yourself. That's the FIRST RULE.

You are NOT your JOB.
You are NOT your HOME.
You are NOT your SALARY, FICA, or CREDIT SCORE.
You are NOT your CREDIT LIMIT.
You are NOT what you can BUY.
You are NOT the HIGH-END DESIGNER LABELS you WEAR.
You are NOT what you DRIVE.
You are NOT who you HANG WITH.
You are NOT who you are SEEN WITH or WHERE you're seen with them.
You're NOT what TRENDS on TWITTER.
You're NOT WHO YOU KNOW ON FACEBOOK.
You're NOT WHO YOU FUCK..., and you SHOULDN'T TRY TO USE ANY OF THE ABOVE IN ORDER TO FUCK so you can feel BETTER about yourself.

you're YOU. BE YOU.

my opinion.

[goatman]

A thread about being nice turns into an argument...Welcome to HA! :dead-1:
STRANGE FRUIT indeed, my friend...

[Yeah]

Not trying to be hurtful but I think you need to boost your self-esteem. It isn't about 'them' at all and everything to do with you. Respect yourself and demand respect from others and you'll notice how you'll be treated differently by women AND men.

Agree. I've fought this fight off and on for years. For some reason I find it hard to respect myself. Probably due to bouts of low self esteem. Also hard to take praise from people too. My self esteem has yo yoed as my weight has over the years. But I keep trying to raise myself up and dust off and keep trying to learn to respect myself more so I can get it in return from both women and men. Thanks

[Jamie French]

@ goatman: Not even reading your posts. I have the last word.

[goatman]

@ goatman: Not even reading your posts. I have the last word.
And THIS BENEFITS YOU, how exactly?:confused::confused:
Fine, lemme see if I can find a trophy...:Bowdown:
Oh, WAIT.:whistle::)

[Jamie French]

@ goatman: Not even reading your posts. I have the last word.


And THIS BENEFITS YOU, how exactly?:confused::confused:
Fine, lemme see if I can find a trophy...:Bowdown:
Oh, WAIT.:whistle::)

[robertlouis]

No one thinks that being nice is a poor trait, but if it's your only trait and you take the time to complain about it then you're a shitty under-developed person with no real self awareness or genuine empathy.

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Totally nailed it, Jamie. A nice guy with a decent serving of assertiveness usually does ok. It's served me pretty well over the years anyway, he said smugly. :whistle:

And diehard one-track "bad boys" all too often end up abusing their partners because it's the only way they know.

[trish]

... There are only like 20 or so different personality types...
Since we've settled the main issue of this thread, I feel free to take up a side issue: the number of distinct personality types. My friends in Astrology tell me that traditionally there are 16 celestial bodies that influence and determine an individual's personality. These influences are shaped by the Zodiacal sector that houses the body at birth. Since there are 12 houses, there are 12 to the 16th power personality types; i.e. over 180 quadrillion basic personalities. Given there are only about 7 billion people on the planet, it's very likely each of us has a unique personality. Unfortunately, astrology is entirely hokum.

[EvaCassini]

Unfortunately, astrology is entirely hokum.



Penn and Teller: Bullshit - Season 7 Episode 2 - Astrology - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsqlyj3OR9A)

James Randi on Astrology - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dp2Zqk8vHw)

[trish]

Great vids. What I was getting at is the number of factors that enter into characterizing a personality. Astrology has a paucity of factors and none of them are relevant. But here on Earth it seems to me there have got to be more than 16 factors that influence personality, even if they're terrestrial factors rather than celestial (e.g. economic class, educational opportunity, parental expectations, etc. ) and surely each of these factors can be present in varying degrees or levels (e.g. levels of family income can be used to describe economic class). Suppose we can divide each factor into 12 degrees of presence or levels of intensity. Than there are again 12 to the 16 many possible personality types. Once again over 1.8 quadrillion. More than enough for us all to be distinctly unique.

[EvaCassini]

One person could have a unique personality but most of the traits within that person are shared throughout millions.

[be2378]

Yes nice guys finished last, even Green Day wrote a song about it. It's true most girls want a bad ass over a nice guy. They only want a nice guy to walk all over, like a bad rug at ikea.

[trish]

Very true. Let's say we really only need to keep track of say 20 traits. A given person may not have the trait at all, or have it to a low degree, a medium degree or to a high degree. Then there are 4 to the 20 th power possible personality types based on our coarse graining (hi, medium, low or none). That would be over a trillion possible personalities. Still enough to make it likely that we fall into unique categories.

[EvaCassini]

Each one of our personalities are nice and unique due to mostly genetics and mutation...but the thing that dwindles that down to a much lower number is nurture and conformity/society. Due to our parent's upbringing and where we live, greatly diminishes that high number you speak of.

Millions upon millions in the US have very similar traits and from that and the way they live and interact with others, make those "million" indistinguishable from a million in Germany, UK, or elsewhere. Yes, some may be nicer than others, some may even play more videos games, or eat too much chocolate, but still count on at least a million others doing the exact same thing you are doing right now. Acting the same way you are right now. Feeling the exact way you are now.

Think of it like this...Hipsters.

Hipsters use to deviate away from the "norm". Now, think of how many hipsters there are...too many to count. They all deviated away from the norm, to, unbeknownst to them, inevitably create a norm. Conformity and society hinders unique traits.

[trish]

Interesting.

I was thinking that for each trait we had 1/4 of a chance of not having it, 1/4 of a chance of having in a low amount, 1/4 chance of having it a medium amount and 1/4 chance of having in a high amount. So the probability that a random person shared that one trait in the same degree as myself would be 0.25. The probability that they shared all twenty basic traits to the same degree as myself would be 0.25 to the 20th power; i.e. 0.0000000000009 .

But what you've just suggested is that nurture biases these probabilities. So given a particular trait I have a high probability of having it to the same degree as my parents, or my friends who influence me. For each of the twenty basic traits suppose there's a 90% chance that a randomly chosen friend has that trait to the same degree as myself. Then the probability that he or she shares all twenty traits to the same degree as myself is 0.9 to the power of 20; i.e. approximately 0.1257 . Low, but significant.

Suppose I'm in a room with 30 other people. What's the probability that at least one person has all twenty traits to same degree as myself? Well the probability that none of them have the same personality type as me is (1-.1257...)^30. More precisely (1 - (.9^20))^30 which works out to about 0.02. So there's a 98% probability that someone in the room matches me exactly!

This could be why we have the illusion that there are only a few handfuls of personality types. Taking your suggestion of nurture and combining it with our interpretation of Jamie's theory that there are only 20 relevant traits, there are actually more than a trillion personality types. But given the winnowing effect of cultural influence and nurture there's a low but significant probability (namely 0.1257) that a random person has all 20 traits to the same degree as myself. Given a random selection of 30 people there's a 98% chance that at least one of them will have all twenty traits to the same degree as myself.

Somewhat ironic that Astrology (usually criticized for it's paucity of determining factors; i.e. 16 + 12 = 2 8 ) allows for over a quadrillion personality types...a thousandfold greater range of personality than the theory we just came up with. (I kinda think there are many more traits than 20 and many more than 4 levels for each trait).

This has some similarities with the birthday phenomena. There's only 1 chance in 365 that a random person shares your birthday. But in a room of thirty people there's a favorable probability that at least two people will share a birthday.

[muh_muh]

you realise all theories from astrology to probabilities to the 20 are completel bs as what youre saying is "look at this random completely baseless number i just made up"

[gaysian71]

Why do nice guys finish last? Or is it just me? I was taught to treat people the way i wanted to be treated. I treat women with respect and it seems im always getting looked over for a bad boy. And then later they break up with em because he wasnt what they thought he would be. So am i doing something wrong? I just dont know.

Nice guys don't finish last. Hopeless fools finish last. You may be a nice guy, you may be a great guy. But if you are a hopeless fool, you will finish last and you will never ever get the girl of your dreams. If you want that girl, you have to go and get her. Not wait for the "bad boys" to leave her alone so you can look at her and hope she comes to you. It just doesn't work that way.

[EvaCassini]

lol ^ nice. @Muh Muh

[trish]

you realise all theories from astrology to probabilities to the 20 are completel bs as what youre saying is "look at this random completely baseless number i just made up"Yeah we already agreed Astrology was complete hokum. The 20 comes from our interpretation of Jamie's suggestion that there are only 20 or so personality traits. Also a debatable number, but it is recommended to her by her experience.

[Jamie French]

Don't pick apart people's hyperbole, you just end up murdering humor.


Yeah we already agreed Astrology was complete hokum. The 20 comes from our interpretation of Jamie's suggestion that there are only 20 or so personality traits. Also a debatable number, but it is recommended to her by her experience.

[trish]

So enough time as past for yesterday's bludgeon to become today's humor. Right then. I'll let off. :)

[muh_muh]

Yeah we already agreed Astrology was complete hokum. The 20 comes from our interpretation of Jamie's suggestion that there are only 20 or so personality traits. Also a debatable number, but it is recommended to her by her experience.

thing is we dont even have a proper definition of "personality" "personality trait" and "unique personality" without those how do you expect to count them?

the only thing we know for sure is that a very limited number of simple (they have to be otherwise people in marketing with business degrees (ie brainless blithering idiots) wouldnt be able to use them) manipulation techniques works on large numbers of people
which should be usable as some sort of upper bound on the number of truely unique people

[trish]

thing is we dont even have a proper definition of "personality" "personality trait" and "unique personality" without those how do you expect to count them?

the only thing we know for sure is that a very limited number of simple (they have to be otherwise people in marketing with business degrees (ie brainless blithering idiots) wouldnt be able to use them) manipulation techniques works on large numbers of people
which should be usable as some sort of upper bound on the number of truely unique peopleAgreement from me on all points. I was just having fun...and apparently so was Jamie.

[On the side: the one "serious" motivation I had was to demonstrate that even starting with rather restrictive assumptions with a paucity of factors (as is the case with Astrology) there can be a multitude of personality types.][Use of brackets is for humorous effect only][Yeah, and you don't need to tell me...it's not funny]

[Jamie French]

No. The dude I was bludgeoning didn't know he was the punchline the whole time and is unrelated to my personality quote. My claim was hyperbolic but not too far from the truth... saying '20 personalities' is shorthand for an idea that wouldn't benefit from any further in-depth discussion. You gotta learn to cut the fat from posts in order to attain maximum punch. Brevity is the soul of wit and all that tired garbage. Catch up.


So enough time as past for yesterday's bludgeon to become today's humor. Right then. I'll let off. :)

[dderek123]

{i}[am]"not"|sure|\why/<it>=necessary=&to&$use$@special@#formatting#<in>+your+messages+.
[why](don't)|we|\just\"use"^wingdings?^

[Jamie French]

Nice.

{i}[am]"not"|sure|\why/<it>=necessary=&to&$use$@special@#formatting#<in>+your+messages+.
[why](don't)|we|\just\"use"^wingdings?^

[trish]

My claim ... not too far from the truth... saying '20 personalities' is shorthand for an idea that wouldn't benefit from any further in-depth discussion. You gotta learn to cut the fat from posts in order to attain maximum punch. Brevity is the soul of wit and all that tired garbage. Catch up.Got it. Becher said the same thing about his phlogiston theory of combustion, "The phlogiston theory wouldn't benefit from further analysis. It's just an exaggeration based on the truth." He was right. People just plunged ahead, over-discussed the whole thing, stepped on the laughs and sure enough: the phlogiston theory did not benefit in the least. What assholes some people can be. From now on, I'm keepin' it short. Thx.

[Dino Velvet]

I like hookers and women who objectify themselves for profit. I also enjoy being a gentleman to a nice lady. I consider myself a nice guy to both. I was a rotten fucker to gals when I was in my 20s and feel bad about much of it now.

[robertlouis]

I like hookers and women who objectify themselves for profit. I also enjoy being a gentleman to a nice lady. I consider myself a nice guy to both. I was a rotten fucker to gals when I was in my 20s and feel bad about much of it now.

"Rotten Fucker."

Dino, is that a description of performance levels or attitude?

Or, of course, both. :whistle:

[Dino Velvet]

"Rotten Fucker."

Dino, is that a description of performance levels or attitude?

Or, of course, both. :whistle:

http://efukt.com/20779_He_Cums_Battery_Acid.html

[SheWantsTheD]

The problem is that too many people worry about what others will think of them, their thoughts, their actions, their friends, their social status, their income etc etc. If you want a girl tell her you want her. If she doesn't like you because you are too nice then fuck the bitch. If you are only being nice because you thought thats what she wanted to see then cut that shit out and just be your damn self.
Once you are in a relationship with someone and you know what pisses the other person off and what makes them happy then sure, you can compromise on some things. Until then, don't worry about it.
Stop trying to impress strangers.

[Ben in LA]

I consider myself to be a nice guy...some say too nice. I'm not too nice to let some chick walk all over me though. If I'm polite to someone and they give me attitude for no apparent reason, fuck 'em. There are PLENTY of other fish in the sea.

[lifeisfiction]

No. The dude I was bludgeoning didn't know he was the punchline the whole time and is unrelated to my personality quote. My claim was hyperbolic but not too far from the truth... saying '20 personalities' is shorthand for an idea that wouldn't benefit from any further in-depth discussion. You gotta learn to cut the fat from posts in order to attain maximum punch. Brevity is the soul of wit and all that tired garbage. Catch up.

People get the punchline, I think many people don't find it entertaining.

[Yeah]

The problem is that too many people worry about what others will think of them, their thoughts, their actions, their friends, their social status, their income etc etc. If you want a girl tell her you want her. If she doesn't like you because you are too nice then fuck the bitch. If you are only being nice because you thought thats what she wanted to see then cut that shit out and just be your damn self.
Once you are in a relationship with someone and you know what pisses the other person off and what makes them happy then sure, you can compromise on some things. Until then, don't worry about it.
Stop trying to impress strangers.

Well said. Thanks.

[Lovecox]

There is a book by Dr. Robert A. Glover entitled "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that explains the "nice guy" syndrome.
In the book he explains that most "nice guys" are not so nice after all! That in fact they are mostly passive-aggressive types who are not entirely honest about their needs and expect favors in return for 'being nice'.
I have noticed that many guys who label themselves 'nice guys' are always complaining that they get treated badly. "I took her to dinner, I bought her flowers, blah, blah, blah ... and she didn't agree to be my girlfriend. Poor me! Sob, sob!" They have an expectation. Expectations not met lead to resentment.
Women want a man who is assertive, knows what he wants, and is not afraid or ashamed of his drives. It doesn't mean he has to be a jerk; he can be respectful but also direct and honest.
They DON'T want a man who "acts" nice and then feels entitled to something in return. Or a whiner who is wallowing in self pity and brimming with resentment.
Hey, Mr. "nice guy", stop complaining and get out there and get what you want because if you don't someone else will.

[canuseeme]

How soon some forget:

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=71084