Veterans Day

[uchetal]

I would like to extend my sincere gratitude and to all of you who have served in the armed forces. Thank you for your courage, service and sacrifices. Today I honor you and those who did not return home.

[GroobyKrissy]

+1 on this.

[Real fun guy]

Same here. Thank you to all the Veterans. :)

[VictoriaVeil]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/491d740c244126df6ba4a87562acdc5f/tumblr_mw3r83kx2W1s6lu7xo1_1280.jpg

#QOTD “Land of the Free, Because of the Brave who served.” - Unknown’ Thanks to all our great soldiers!!!

[scott_in_mass]

you are welcome. Thank you for your support

[CORVETTEDUDE]

The honor and pleasure was mine. Thank you for your support.

[EvaCassini]

Thank you :)

Anchors Away my boys!

Hoo-Yah!

[Ms.Stepford]

I hate veteran's day though, because the mail doesn't come and I always get checks on Mondays.

Before you guffaw, I got my CIB in Diyalah '08, so really it's just ironic.

Thanks America. You're welcome. Really I just want my money! :-P

[TabStorm]

Happy to have served

[BellaBellucci]

Thank you all for your service. :D

~BB~

[Jimmy W]

If anyone cares, while all the tributes to veterans of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and all the wars in the Middle East are meaningful and solemn, Veterans day actually commemorates the end of the First World War. On November 11th at 11:00 am 1918 Germany agreed to an unconditional surrender and was forced to accept all responsibility for the war which lead to the Treaty of Versailles and the less than humane treatment of the German people which eventually allowed for a guy who admired Charlie Chaplins look to kill millions. America sometimes ignores its contribution to WWI but our involvement was significant. If anyone is still reading, look up Frank Luke Jr. for a true individual and hero.

[Jimmy W]

and to my beautiful, darling Alisha, I'm not really this boring in person

[tsmirandameadows]

I think I pissed off Christian with my Veteran's Day commentary, so probably best that I not share my thoughts lol. ;)

[EvaCassini]

What did you say?

[Ben in LA]

I salute all veterans as well, especially my father. But...this right here.

[tsmirandameadows]

What did you say?

Essentially that I think "Supporting the Troops" and saying "Thank you for your Service" is really more about assuaging the guilt and shame (of not having had to sacrifice anything over the past 12 years) of the person saying it than about truly thanking and honoring the person so lauded.

The fact of the matter is that after 9/11, we as a people were wounded, hurting, and angry, and we wanted blood for it. We weren't wrong to seek vengeance, in fact I think we were perfectly justified in waging war to accomplish it. But fundamentally, we wanted to taste blood, we wanted to show the world that if you fuck with us, we will hunt you to the ends of the earth to make you pay. And again, I don't think that was unreasonable given the circumstances, and it was certainly a motivation for me pursuing the Army: to be a part of taking vengeance, and in the process enacting justice. But here's the thing: we as a people wanted this -- the left likes to say Bush misled us into war in Iraq, but the reality is that the Bush administration was so swept up in the national mood that they told us what we wanted to hear: that our national villain of the 90s is being bad and now it's are chance to fuck him up. Yet despite our national (and entirely justified) desire for war, only the smallest handful of Americans ever had to shoulder any of the burden of those wars. Nothing was asked of us, and none of us gave anything, except for that small handful who chose to join up or were already in.

Then, the wars went south. As it turns out, vengeance never quite works out the way you want, and pretty soon we found ourselves in the midst of an unfolding Greek tragedy. But rather than confront the horrible truths before us, that we had made an irreversible and horrible mistake, and make a decision to either end the wars or renew our effort to win them, we as a people made the most unconscionable decision imaginable: we chose to ignore them and forget about them, because they made us too uncomfortable. And so we continued to send soldiers off to fight and possible be maimed or killed, all in our name, but couldn't even show them the courtesy of paying attention and remembering that there was a war on. I'm reminded of the line from the great movie Zulu: "The people don't like casualties, for it upsets them at their breakfast." We back at home were upset that war wasn't all nice and pretty and easy, and so we tuned it out. It all faded to the background, and operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere were all filtered from our consciousness. Seriously, on a given day, how many times do you think about the fact that we are at war, and that RIGHT NOW there are Americans in combat? I think most of us, unless we are a part of that other 1% who actually is serving or has family serving, would be hard pressed to say we think about it more than once a week.

Personally, I believe this willful desire to ignore the wars we asked for should be a source of great shame for all of us, and that no amount of saying thank you to the veterans who have fought in the wars we have done our best to forget will alleviate that shame. I likewise do not believe that this disconnect of the public from those whom we ask to fight our wars is healthy for our democracy. In Ancient Athens, each spring when the Assembly would gather to debate military affairs, the question of whether and with whom to go to war was a real one: the men speaking and debating the issue were the ones either who would fight the war, or whose sons would fight the war. In Athens, citizens of a democracy did not ask others to fight for them: if the people truly wanted war, then the people needed to shoulder the burden, just like how if the people wanted political power, they likewise needed to shoulder the burden of running government, hence political office by lot. Athens was hardly a perfect democracy, but I do believe they had a healthier relationship with the waging of war than we do: we can demand war, but we by and large don't have to experience the price of it.

Thus endeth the rant. I apologize if I've offended anyone, but this is an issue I'm obviously quite passionate about, and which this particular day has caused me to ruminate on more than I do the rest of the year. Likewise, any use of the word "you" was generic at not meant to refer to anyone in particular.

Oh, and I only said some of this to Christian obviously; this is the full spiel lol. Again, sorry if I've offended anyone, but I wouldn't say this if I didn't think this was something we ought to be thinking about on Veteran's Day.

[GroobyKrissy]

Essentially that I think "Supporting the Troops" and saying "Thank you for your Service" is really more about assuaging the guilt and shame (of not having had to sacrifice anything over the past 12 years) of the person saying it than about truly thanking and honoring the person so lauded.

The fact of the matter is that after 9/11, we as a people were wounded, hurting, and angry, and we wanted blood for it. We weren't wrong to seek vengeance, in fact I think we were perfectly justified in waging war to accomplish it. But fundamentally, we wanted to taste blood, we wanted to show the world that if you fuck with us, we will hunt you to the ends of the earth to make you pay. And again, I don't think that was unreasonable given the circumstances, and it was certainly a motivation for me pursuing the Army: to be a part of taking vengeance, and in the process enacting justice. But here's the thing: we as a people wanted this -- the left likes to say Bush misled us into war in Iraq, but the reality is that the Bush administration was so swept up in the national mood that they told us what we wanted to hear: that our national villain of the 90s is being bad and now it's are chance to fuck him up. Yet despite our national (and entirely justified) desire for war, only the smallest handful of Americans ever had to shoulder any of the burden of those wars. Nothing was asked of us, and none of us gave anything, except for that small handful who chose to join up or were already in.

Then, the wars went south. As it turns out, vengeance never quite works out the way you want, and pretty soon we found ourselves in the midst of an unfolding Greek tragedy. But rather than confront the horrible truths before us, that we had made an irreversible and horrible mistake, and make a decision to either end the wars or renew our effort to win them, we as a people made the most unconscionable decision imaginable: we chose to ignore them and forget about them, because they made us too uncomfortable. And so we continued to send soldiers off to fight and possible be maimed or killed, all in our name, but couldn't even show them the courtesy of paying attention and remembering that there was a war on. I'm reminded of the line from the great movie Zulu: "The people don't like casualties, for it upsets them at their breakfast." We back at home were upset that war wasn't all nice and pretty and easy, and so we tuned it out. It all faded to the background, and operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere were all filtered from our consciousness. Seriously, on a given day, how many times do you think about the fact that we are at war, and that RIGHT NOW there are Americans in combat? I think most of us, unless we are a part of that other 1% who actually is serving or has family serving, would be hard pressed to say we think about it more than once a week.

Personally, I believe this willful desire to ignore the wars we asked for should be a source of great shame for all of us, and that no amount of saying thank you to the veterans who have fought in the wars we have done our best to forget will alleviate that shame. I likewise do not believe that this disconnect of the public from those whom we ask to fight our wars is healthy for our democracy. In Ancient Athens, each spring when the Assembly would gather to debate military affairs, the question of whether and with whom to go to war was a real one: the men speaking and debating the issue were the ones either who would fight the war, or whose sons would fight the war. In Athens, citizens of a democracy did not ask others to fight for them: if the people truly wanted war, then the people needed to shoulder the burden, just like how if the people wanted political power, they likewise needed to shoulder the burden of running government, hence political office by lot. Athens was hardly a perfect democracy, but I do believe they had a healthier relationship with the waging of war than we do: we can demand war, but we by and large don't have to experience the price of it.

Thus endeth the rant. I apologize if I've offended anyone, but this is an issue I'm obviously quite passionate about, and which this particular day has caused me to ruminate on more than I do the rest of the year. Likewise, any use of the word "you" was generic at not meant to refer to anyone in particular.

Oh, and I only said some of this to Christian obviously; this is the full spiel lol. Again, sorry if I've offended anyone, but I wouldn't say this if I didn't think this was something we ought to be thinking about on Veteran's Day.

OK, let's discuss.

Personally, I think your argument shows a lack of understanding about what "thanks" is... or, at the very least a misrepresentation of it.

For those of us who do have even a rudimentary understanding of history, you must realize that without the wars that have been fought, as tragic as they are, our lives would be very different. For myself. I'm adopted from S. Korea... which arguably only exists because of intervention from the West, specifically the United States. Without that intervention, my life would be vastly different... even possibly non-existent.

It is that HONEST realization that brings me to say "Thanks" on this day (among others). It has nothing to do with DESERVING... it has everything to do with DECENCY.

And, in the interest of fairness... look at what you wrote. You're doing the exact thing you're accusing others of doing. Writing something that you know is going to be offensive to some, and then offering an apology for it... which you clearly don't mean. You're irritated (upset even?) that people aren't being "real" about offering their thanks on this day... Is your apology about not offending people with what you wrote any more "real" ?

Should I discount everything you just wrote because clearly, you just say things because it is the "right" or "decent" thing to say (I'm sorry for offending... BUT...)?

I agree that some people probably do not offer thanks today based upon a clear understanding of history or personal beliefs as I do, but the vast majority of people out there just recognize it is the decent thing to do to honor people who have given their lives for something THEY believed in... whether it be under orders, rightly, wrongly, or whatever the reason.

[GroobyKrissy]

Here is another way of looking at it...

Thanks is not earned... it is given. It is a response... not an action.

Ruminate on that for a while and extrapolate what that means. I think that should give you a better understanding of why it is the decent thing to do when you send Thank You cards out after Christmas... [EDIT] oh, sorry... The Holidays.

[GroobyKrissy]

I am eating Chinese Food (which I'd probably be eating every day without those damn veterans... maybe I'm coming around), which makes me extra brilliant with its additional Asian boost. So, here is another question for you, Miranda, regarding thanks.

Numerous girls here, on this very board, including yourself I would guess (I can dig up the posts and find them if you would like), have "Thanked" their Fans.

So, do you think about what those Fans have gone through every second... working a job, skipping a meal, maxing out a credit card, to watch you fuck on film (if you don't think at least some of your Fans do this... wake up to reality)? I would guess you do not spend large amounts of your day thinking about your Fans... and neither does anyone here... even me.

Does that make your "Thanks" any less valid? No. It comes out of an immediate (read: present) internal realization that the collective actions of said Fans have enabled you some measure of success.

OK, back to wonton soup.

[LilyRox]

I thank my fans and communicate with them as much as I can, but it's never enough.

[tsmirandameadows]

Okay, first off, I did not once say that war is necessarily unjust or unnecessary. In fact, I said several times that our response to 9/11 was "justified" and "[not] unreasonable". I was an Army brat, and likewise the only reason I'm not an active duty Army infantry officer right now was a medical disqualification that came down towards the end of my ROTC training -- probably a good thing as I'd still be in the midst of my service commitment and likely in a genderfuck hell of my own making. The point is that I'm not anti-intervention, or anti-military, or anti-war. But let's not pretend that Afghanistan and Iraq were about something nobler than vengeance. But vengeance isn't all bad -- our criminal justice system is largely built around vengeance, yet I think most of us agree that in most circumstance justice is in fact served by inflicting a harm upon someone who has done harm, e.g. taking away the freedom of one who has taken away a life. So yes, we were justified to wage war for the sake of vengeance. What we weren't justified in doing was asking only a handful of our fellow citizens to shoulder the burden, then to tune out the wars we asked them to fight once the going got rough.

With regard to saying thank you, I do not believe our deeds match our words in this regard. Words are easy, action is not, and our actions since about 2004 when the War in Iraq began to deteriorate -- we had already long since forgotten about Afghanistan by that point -- have spoken much louder than our words. If we truly meant our thanks, we would think about the fact that we are at war more than twice a year. We would ask that our media outlets actually tell us what is going on, so that we can learn the stories of the soldiers we have asked to sacrifice for us. It would be a part of our national dialog that there is a war on, and we would be discussing either how to better prosecute it or whether what can be gained is still worth what it would cost to achieve. But we don't, because we don't care. We like to pretend we do because it otherwise says something very nasty about our national character, but at the end of the day if we truly cared about the wars we asked our government and military to undertake, and if we truly cared about the fellow citizens we sent off to fight, then we wouldn't have spent the last 9 years tuning it all out, and no amount of saying thank you will make up for our hypocrisy.

So yes, I suppose you're right: I'm not really particularly sorry. I believe too strongly that we have something to be ashamed about as a country yet we are too shameless to honestly face it, and if that offends people on a national feel good about yourself day, then they need to spend some time at a VA hospital and ask themselves if saying thank you really means anything in the context of this national shame. And frankly, if you ever thought to ask, most service members become pretty deeply uncomfortable when random strangers thank them for their service. Likewise, the difficulty most vets face in readjusting to civilian life can be attributed to the fact that stateside the war is forgotten: think the scene from The Hurt Locker where he's shopping in a grocery store.

We should thank our veterans, but we should do so through actions not words. We should start paying attention and talking about the war again. We should consider a no-exemption national draft lottery, so that all families have an equal chance of having skin in the game, rather than just a chosen, forgotten few. And the next time we have a national debate over whether or not to go to war, we should be asking our selves what we, personally, are prepared to do, because this last time most of us didn't do a god damn thing.

[tsmirandameadows]

I am eating Chinese Food (which I'd probably be eating every day without those damn veterans... maybe I'm coming around), which makes me extra brilliant with its additional Asian boost. So, here is another question for you, Miranda, regarding thanks.

Numerous girls here, on this very board, including yourself I would guess (I can dig up the posts and find them if you would like), have "Thanked" their Fans.

So, do you think about what those Fans have gone through every second... working a job, skipping a meal, maxing out a credit card, to watch you fuck on film (if you don't think at least some of your Fans do this... wake up to reality)? I would guess you do not spend large amounts of your day thinking about your Fans... and neither does anyone here... even me.

Does that make your "Thanks" any less valid? No. It comes out of an immediate (read: present) internal realization that the collective actions of said Fans have enabled you some measure of success.

OK, back to wonton soup.

I guess I'm just too influenced by Aristotle ("For even if the end is the same for a single man and for a state, that of the state seems at all events something greater and more complete whether to attain or to preserve; though it is worth while to attain the end merely for one man, it is finer and more godlike to attain it for a nation or for poleis.") to think my personal business affairs are of equal significance to those of my country. Particularly when the matter is one of war, involving the sacrifice and death of fellow citizens.

[GroobyKrissy]

I'm not really seeing where I said that you said, "...war is necessarily unjust or unnecessary" so you first paragraph response... not really relevant to the points that I had. I'm not arguing the morals of war... I'm arguing the decency of saying "Thank You", even for something you have not personally experienced.

Your 2nd paragraph... Yes, I agree. Actions do speak louder than words. What I see you doing though (and those who postulate this same line of reasoning), is applying a very, VERY broad brush stroke based upon assumptions and your own personal beliefs. That is, you're making a judgement (people who say "thank you" today don't back it up with actions) upon people you know nothing about... unless you have some omniscience we mere mortals don't have. In other words, how do you know that people who are saying "thank you" today haven't, in fact, either donated time or energy to systems supporting veterans, troops, etc. etc. I certainly have in the past.

The lack of action, and instead just a simple "Thank You" (words) doesn't invalidate the sentiment behind it. That is why I said that "thanks" is a response... not an action.

Not everyone has the means to do the actions you require in order for it to be valid "thanks". And, speaking of which... what makes you the arbiter of what is ENOUGH action to be considered "thankful"...?

One could actually argue that based upon what you've written (remember, I can only make a judgement based upon that), you've been basically all words and no action for the very cause you believe in... ?? What ACTIONS have you done to promote this cause of yours... what organization have you started... what stage have you fought for to have your "national debate"...? I'm not being sarcastic here... I'm really interested in knowing because as you state, if there is no action, then you haven't done a "god damn thing".

[GroobyKrissy]

I guess I'm just too influenced by Aristotle ("For even if the end is the same for a single man and for a state, that of the state seems at all events something greater and more complete whether to attain or to preserve; though it is worth while to attain the end merely for one man, it is finer and more godlike to attain it for a nation or for poleis.") to think my personal business affairs are of equal significance to those of my country. Particularly when the matter is one of war, involving the sacrifice and death of fellow citizens.

Total cop out... and a really, really stale one - Oh, I'm talking about the (nebulous) "greater good"... - but of course, my criticisms are super-dooper specific enough.

What you're quoting, while sounding nice, has very little to do with the discussion about THANKS... and why we should or should not be appreciative and thankful on Veteran's Day (which I believe is your original premise).

(Let's not get sidetracked here - but just for the sake of it...)

So, you can hold others to a system of belief but when it comes to yourself personally, no matter what consequence it ultimately has, THAT is OK... because it fits your current needs... and doesn't affect the "greater good"...?

You know, something tells me that Aristotle, being a man of principle would be against that. You should live your life according to principles, whatever they are, and stand by them for yourself and for others.

But anyway. Totally. Different. Discussion.

[robertlouis]

I guess I'm just too influenced by Aristotle ("For even if the end is the same for a single man and for a state, that of the state seems at all events something greater and more complete whether to attain or to preserve; though it is worth while to attain the end merely for one man, it is finer and more godlike to attain it for a nation or for poleis.") to think my personal business affairs are of equal significance to those of my country. Particularly when the matter is one of war, involving the sacrifice and death of fellow citizens.

I tend to agree with Miranda in this debate. We suffer from a similar schizophrenia here in the UK when it comes to forgetting then belatedly thanking our troops.

Surely the real issue, however, is that we need to recognise the difference between the sacrifice of those who are sent on our behalf to fight wars on the other side of the planet and legitimate contempt, or at least disagreement, for and with the politicians whose decisions and murky moral motivations sent them there in the first place. It's only when we're satisfied that we can make that distinction objectively that we can move the debate on to a more philosophical plane.

While the two minute silence was widely observed and respected here on Monday at 11am, our primary day of commemoration is always the Sunday closest to the 11th. And while it is wrapped up with royalty and the leading politicians, there is no doubt in my mind that for most people it is about commemorating the loss and sacrifice of young men, primarily between 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, but also all the other wars since, and has little political significance; it remains deeply personal and largely respectful.

However, for those who fought and for those who still fight, it's about coping with the aftermath, and neither they, nor society at large, are equipped, and in the case of the latter, willing, to take responsibility for what they have suffered, whether it's physical and/or psychological.

And as long as wars are started on the basis of which president or prime minister - yep, that's you, Dubya and Tony - has the largest cojones - rather than on the basis of strategic or moral justification, we will not progress.

[LilyRox]

I think I pissed off Christian with my Veteran's Day commentary, so probably best that I not share my thoughts lol. ;)

Commentary like in person or you mean like a video or just a discussion? If you have a video I would like to hear it.

Just asking, I like the original stuff.

[robertlouis]

That last post of mine meandered a bit.

Here's a song I wrote a few years ago about our Armistice Day = Veterans Day, that expresses it better.

Armistice Day


1. Shadows lengthen quickly on November afternoons
Streetlamps flicker early to welcome winter gloom
And as the days grow shorter, memories grow long
There’s something in the air today, echoes of old songs
In each lapel a splash of red, on each corner there’s a tray
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

2. Young men mown down in thousands for a dead imperial cause
Faith in King and Country, the lie that fuels all wars
Lost generations haunt the years, women fill the void with tears
Old men march each November, reliving ancient fears
Their numbers down to nothing, as the shadows fade away
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

Bridge: I have walked the fields of Flanders, I have heard the bugles call
Wept beside the Menin Gate, and watched the poppies slowly fall
Heard the chink of rusting helmets as the ploughshares lift the clay
Remember those you never knew each sad Armistice Day

3. And our eyes lift up from Flanders mud to distant burning sands
Where boys in khaki keep the peace in angry foreign lands
Defending politicians’ lies, beneath a hostile sun
Nothing ever changes, just the young men and the guns
Watching the parades pass by, as we hear the bugles play
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

Coda: The last post and silence for all those left behind
And each slow dusk a drawing down of blinds
We share their grief just once a year, they feel it every day
Remember those you never knew each sad Armistice Day

[GroobyKrissy]

I tend to agree with Miranda in this debate. We suffer from a similar schizophrenia here in the UK when it comes to forgetting then belatedly thanking our troops.

Surely the real issue, however, is that we need to recognise the difference between the sacrifice of those who are sent on our behalf to fight wars on the other side of the planet and legitimate contempt, or at least disagreement, for and with the politicians whose decisions and murky moral motivations sent them there in the first place. It's only when we're satisfied that we can make that distinction objectively that we can move the debate on to a more philosophical plane.

While the two minute silence was widely observed and respected here on Monday at 11am, our primary day of commemoration is always the Sunday closest to the 11th. And while it is wrapped up with royalty and the leading politicians, there is no doubt in my mind that for most people it is about commemorating the loss and sacrifice of young men, primarily between 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, but also all the other wars since, and has little political significance; it remains deeply personal and largely respectful.

However, for those who fought and for those who still fight, it's about coping with the aftermath, and neither they, nor society at large, are equipped, and in the case of the latter, willing, to take responsibility for what they have suffered, whether it's physical and/or psychological.

And as long as wars are started on the basis of which president or prime minister - yep, that's you, Dubya and Tony - has the largest cojones - rather than on the basis of strategic or moral justification, we will not progress.

I don't think anyone (certainly not I) is thanking politicians. If they are, that is extremely misguided... so I agree with you on that. I don't think anyone is arguing that point at all, at least I haven't seen it argued that way.

This, to me, is not a complicated matter. You are, or you are not, thankful in some respect for the freedoms you have. If you are, then it is the decent thing to do to say "thanks" for those who gave their lives to help make them possible. Again, to bring it to this board. It is the decent thing if Miranda wins a Tranny Award this year to offer thanks to the Fans when accepting it. To not do so would be viewed as being in poor taste. Is that NOT an accurate statement? Besides not having a world-wide, universal impact on the galaxy... how is this any different?

If you are not thankful for the freedoms you have, then don't say those words. I'm not even arguing that point (to the full extent). What I'm saying is that based upon what I've seen written here, thus far, the ACTIVE ARGUMENT AGAINST saying "Thanks" (since somewhat walked back) is rubbish.

[GroobyKrissy]

Commentary like in person or you mean like a video or just a discussion? If you have a video I would like to hear it.

Just asking, I like the original stuff.

It was Twitter... read both of their accounts.

[tsmirandameadows]

To your first point, you said in your first post "For those of us who do have even a rudimentary understanding of history, you must realize that without the wars that have been fought, as tragic as they are, our lives would be very different." This sentence strongly implies that A) I have not studied history and B) that wars are necessary for the lives we have today. Since you felt it important enough to make point B, in the light of the accusation of ignorance which is point A, it is implied that my statements were somehow at odds with point B, that if I only knew better then I would see that wars are sometimes necessary. Hence, I felt that I needed to reaffirm what I had already stated: wars are often necessary, reasonable, and justified.

To your second point, you're right: I don't know about individuals and their specific contributions, which is why I talked collectively about the American people rather than specific persons. So is there justification to say that collectively we have something to be ashamed of? I have laid out my reasons for why I think we do, and likewise I don't think you or anyone else could seriously argue that we have all collectively made our fair contribution to the waging of the wars we were so hungry for a decade ago.

And I guess you've got me on actions: I haven't leveraged my nascent star power as a porn performer to start a national campaign to reintroduce the draft. What I have done is volunteered for military service -- ultimately meaningless because I never saw active duty, having received a permanent medical disqualification shortly after my branch assignment near the end of my pre-commissioning training -- and thought carefully about what I have observed over the past decade, contrasted it with other historical democracies at war, and formulated an argument for the kinds of policies which would force us as Americans to start taking war more seriously -- again ultimately meaningless, since thus far all it has led to is a few published letter to the editor on my part. As a transwoman, I am de facto disqualified from public office, and likewise, even if mainstream America suddenly embraced us as fully human and deserving of an equal share in society which is our right as citizens, my failure to get any sort of career going during that long, traumatic period in which I was non-passable, has not exactly left me with a resume that would see my election to a position to effect any change. Would that it were otherwise, because these are issues I am passionate about, and to which the policy solutions would ennoble us a country.

[LilyRox]

It was Twitter... read both of their accounts.

Just read, ouch.

I think we need to settle down and remember what Veterans Day is about. It's the one day we take to honor the dead and protectors of our country. This isn't 1970. We have more media and technology than ever before and our own news channels and government mask what is really going on overseas because they think they can shield us from reality. You don't turn on the tv to and see the "war" anymore (if that's what you even call it atm), you see murders, rapes, and robberies on our very own soil. The truth is people are dying overseas and they have to be remembered. A "thanks" may not change anything, but don't these Veterans deserve at least one day of devotion to them?

http://www.vacationideasguide.com/images/vietnam-veterans-memorial/vietnam-veterans-memorial-8.jpg

[GroobyKrissy]

OK, I can see how you could have interpreted what I said that way. I apologize for not having written it more clearly.

My opening remark was not intended AT ALL to imply you don't understand history. It was a literal remark that, in my opinion, anyone who does have a rudimentary understanding of history (following implied from this point on), knows that wars, regardless of moral stance, is a necessary part of history and must make honest, valid conclusions based upon that fact.

The only implication that I intended is that if you deny war is a necessary part of history... we have nothing to discuss. You have an unchangeable and ideological stance against war that will not change, from which you are basing your stances on. That is just denial of history, which you seem smart enough to know better, so my assumption was that that is not your belief.

The conclusion being that man has fought for cause (survival is a cause) since history began. Whether morally wrong or right, those who stand on the "winning" and "losing" sides will often honor those who have died to accomplish the goal. That is history... proven and indisputable.

I hope that clears up what you interpreted. Nothing implied about your education in history at all. I meant that literally - If you have a rudimentary understanding of history... thus... war is part of it. People dying in wars... part of it. etc. etc.

I'll address your second and third paragraphs following.

[tsmirandameadows]

Total cop out... and a really, really stale one - Oh, I'm talking about the (nebulous) "greater good"... - but of course, my criticisms are super-dooper specific enough.

What you're quoting, while sounding nice, has very little to do with the discussion about THANKS... and why we should or should not be appreciative and thankful on Veteran's Day (which I believe is your original premise).

(Let's not get sidetracked here - but just for the sake of it...)

So, you can hold others to a system of belief but when it comes to yourself personally, no matter what consequence it ultimately has, THAT is OK... because it fits your current needs... and doesn't affect the "greater good"...?

You know, something tells me that Aristotle, being a man of principle would be against that. You should live your life according to principles, whatever they are, and stand by them for yourself and for others.

But anyway. Totally. Different. Discussion.

The point I was making was that it is a difference in kind, not of degree. And even if of degree, different circumstances demand different responses. Surely, you have in fact read the Nicomachean Ethics and are familiar with the idea that virtue adheres to the mean? And that the mean differs with respect to individual actions depending upon individual circumstance? For example, take pride. Pride is virtuous in so long as you take the appropriate amount of pride for actions it is appropriate to take pride in. Well what defines appropriate? That is unclear, and Aristotle is very up front that one cannot demand the same out of precision in ethics, which he terms politics, as one can from a mathematician giving a geometry proof, and that therefore we can only understand the truth in outline, and must depend upon the moral intuition which is a product of good habits and upbringing. But all that is beside the point because A) sadly, I do think about my fans and clients more than I do the soldiers that have fought the wars I asked them to, because I interact with said fans and clients each day, thus making the thanks I do give them the result of some genuine engagement, and B) it is too my discredit that that is so, because the wars which I asked our military to undertake, and which I subsequently have spent less time being engaged with, are all together "greater and more complete" affairs to such a degree that they are different in kind from the affairs that make up my work as an adult entertainer.

[GroobyKrissy]

Just read, ouch.

I think we need to settle down and remember what Veterans Day is about. It's the one day we take to honor the dead and protectors of our country. This isn't 1970. We have more media and technology than ever before and our own news channels and government mask what is really going on overseas because they think they can shield us from reality. You don't turn on the tv to and see the "war" anymore (if that's what you even call it atm), you see murders, rapes, and robberies on our very own soil. The truth is people are dying overseas and they have to be remembered. A "thanks" may not change anything, but don't these Veterans deserve at least one day of devotion to them?

http://www.vacationideasguide.com/images/vietnam-veterans-memorial/vietnam-veterans-memorial-8.jpg

Beautiful picture.

I don't think Miranda and I are getting out of hand. To me, it is just an interesting discussion. Nothing more. I'm not worked up at all except to say I now have cold wonton soup which irritates me.

[robertlouis]

I don't think anyone (certainly not I) is thanking politicians. If they are, that is extremely misguided... so I agree with you on that. I don't think anyone is arguing that point at all, at least I haven't seen it argued that way.

This, to me, is not a complicated matter. You are, or you are not, thankful in some respect for the freedoms you have. If you are, then it is the decent thing to do to say "thanks" for those who gave their lives to help make them possible. Again, to bring it to this board. It is the decent thing if Miranda wins a Tranny Award this year to offer thanks to the Fans when accepting it. To not do so would be viewed as being in poor taste. Is that NOT an accurate statement? Besides not having a world-wide, universal impact on the galaxy... how is this any different?

If you are not thankful for the freedoms you have, then don't say those words. I'm not even arguing that point (to the full extent). What I'm saying is that based upon what I've seen written here, thus far, the ACTIVE ARGUMENT AGAINST saying "Thanks" (since somewhat walked back) is rubbish.

Does this help? I'm ashamed of what British troops have done in my name, but I'm not in the least ashamed of those same British troops, who have my full admiration and sympathy for the shitty messes our political leaders have thrown them into without thinking and then walked away. Let's not forget that Obama and Cameron, with limited success, are trying to disentangle the lies and their consequences created by those war criminals Bush and Blair.

As for saying "thanks", well, even if you mean it wholeheartedly and sincerely, it's ultimately meaningless if you stop thinking at that point without considering what you can do constructively to help the individual returning soldier or what can be done to prevent the same situation happening again.

And we also have to recognise the changing nature of war. !914-18 may have been a scuffle between the crowned heads of Europe, but there was territorial aggression in both Europe and further afield from Germany. In 1939 the moral case was unassailable, similarly in Korea and less so in Vietnam. But the assaults on Afghanistan and Iraq lack any such justification.

The issue of revenge as a motive was mentioned earlier. Bad idea unless it can be filled out in other ways. And now we, or rather our troops, and not forgetting the real victims, the civilian populations, have to deal with the consequences of our leaders' abject failure to think things through.

[robertlouis]

Beautiful picture.

I don't think Miranda and I are getting out of hand. To me, it is just an interesting discussion. Nothing more. I'm not worked up at all except to say I now have cold wonton soup which irritates me.

Fuckin' Asians! Sorry Krissy, couldn't resist. :Bowdown:

[GroobyKrissy]

The point I was making was that it is a difference in kind, not of degree. And even if of degree, different circumstances demand different responses. Surely, you have in fact read the Nicomachean Ethics and are familiar with the idea that virtue adheres to the mean? And that the mean differs with respect to individual actions depending upon individual circumstance? For example, take pride. Pride is virtuous in so long as you take the appropriate amount of pride for actions it is appropriate to take pride in. Well what defines appropriate? That is unclear, and Aristotle is very up front that one cannot demand the same out of precision in ethics, which he terms politics, as one can from a mathematician giving a geometry proof, and that therefore we can only understand the truth in outline, and must depend upon the moral intuition which is a product of good habits and upbringing. But all that is beside the point because A) sadly, I do think about my fans and clients more than I do the soldiers that have fought the wars I asked them to, because I interact with said fans and clients each day, thus making the thanks I do give them the result of some genuine engagement, and B) it is too my discredit that that is so, because the wars which I asked our military to undertake, and which I subsequently have spent less time being engaged with, are all together "greater and more complete" affairs to such a degree that they are different in kind from the affairs that make up my work as an adult entertainer.

I understood your point. We differ on matters of philosophy, which is fine. We can still debate the current discussion and leave philosophy to another day. I'm very well read... I simply choose to express my beliefs myself rather than rely on quotes and such (don't take that as a swipe at you, please). I used to quote people all the time in arguments and debates until someone once slapped me around a bit and made me realize that I hadn't really thought the quotes I was quoting through. I was just sounding smart but I couldn't even really explain the depths of what was being said accurately. Or the quotes were so far out of context as to render them meaningless. So I quote the Greats as little as possible these days, not out of ignorance, but because I have, at this point in my life, formulated most of the principles I choose to live by.

Anyway, I think you're selling yourself short, Miranda. If this is a passion of yours, then pursue it. I may not agree with you but that is what makes the human race so interesting. I am working on a couple of projects now that have been almost 10 years since I first wanted to start them. I'm just now getting around to it and after all this time, the question to myself is, "Why did I wait this long instead of just doing it?" Pretty much every excuse in the book... too busy, too scared, people will make fun, I will fail, etc. etc. As I get older, I am realizing that these are just excuses so I'm trying to pursue things that I feel passionate about.

You obviously do care about this, and further explained, your CORE argument is a good one. Words can be meaningless if said year in and year out without any actions tied to them. I don't agree with your supporting arguments but I understand them and will help you in any way possible.

I suppose I'll leave off of discussing your second and third paragraphs as I earlier said I would. This seems like a good stopping point. I enjoyed it and I wish you the best in all your future endeavors... whether you're impacting people on an individual basis or have that national stage someday. Go get em'. I'll support your honest efforts in every way I can.

[GroobyKrissy]

Does this help? I'm ashamed of what British troops have done in my name, but I'm not in the least ashamed of those same British troops, who have my full admiration and sympathy for the shitty messes our political leaders have thrown them into without thinking and then walked away. Let's not forget that Obama and Cameron, with limited success, are trying to disentangle the lies and their consequences created by those war criminals Bush and Blair.

As for saying "thanks", well, even if you mean it wholeheartedly and sincerely, it's ultimately meaningless if you stop thinking at that point without considering what you can do constructively to help the individual returning soldier or what can be done to prevent the same situation happening again.

And we also have to recognise the changing nature of war. !914-18 may have been a scuffle between the crowned heads of Europe, but there was territorial aggression in both Europe and further afield from Germany. In 1939 the moral case was unassailable, similarly in Korea and less so in Vietnam. But the assaults on Afghanistan and Iraq lack any such justification.

The issue of revenge as a motive was mentioned earlier. Bad idea unless it can be filled out in other ways. And now we, or rather our troops, and not forgetting the real victims, the civilian populations, have to deal with the consequences of our leaders' abject failure to think things through.

Most of your points here, I would say are valid. However, that was not the original point of this discussion. Like I said, I am not arguing the morals, impacts, or conclusions of war. War is terrible. I will not argue against that point in any respect, and anyone who does so has a basic disregard of human life that I find abhorrent.

What I will say is that history, once passed, should be remembered accurately and considered objectively. I think we all too often inject history with our present feelings, which I think is dangerous because of the temptation to rewrite history to our liking. It's a difficult thing not to do.

That being said, again... not really the original topic and I've been accused too often of taking threads off on tangents... and rightfully so. So, the end.

[tsmirandameadows]

Surely the real issue, however, is that we need to recognise the difference between the sacrifice of those who are sent on our behalf to fight wars on the other side of the planet and legitimate contempt, or at least disagreement, for and with the politicians whose decisions and murky moral motivations sent them there in the first place. It's only when we're satisfied that we can make that distinction objectively that we can move the debate on to a more philosophical plane.

I think the UK has a better claim to such deception than the US does, in all honesty. I'm a bit older than many of the girls here, so when 9/11 occurred I was very much viewing it through the eyes of someone in the latter half of their teens, and thus not that far removed from being asked to fight. I remember quite vividly the mood in the country then, of solidarity, of "United We Stand", of American flags on every door and every car... and also of the intense shock and anger, of moment ago pacifists stating without irony that "we need to bomb the fuck out of whoever did this", that we "shouldn't give a shit about killing a few women and children, because it wasn't exactly all combatants in the Twin Towers now was it?" When news of that Ranger raid on the Kandahar airfield was first released, people quite literally cheered. We had been wounded deeply by 9/11, and that wound reawakened a long dormant ardor for war and for vengeance. I felt it myself intimately. I can remember reading newspaper and magazine articles about Operation Anaconda in November of that year, as the limited amount of conventional forces we had in country raced to try to cut-off the Taliban/Al-Qaeda retreat through the mountains of Tora Bora, wishing that I could be there and be part of that, rather than stuck in the group home I was living in. We all wanted blood, we asked our leaders and our military to give it to us, and we got it.

Iraq was different, but less than one might think. Yes, there was widespread and vocal opposition to the war, but such activists, with help from the Bush administration, successfully painted themselves as being outside mainstream opinion. Even without such movement-damaging theatrics, the poll numbers were pretty clear: 60-65% of Americans thought we should invade Iraq, and when three weeks into the invasion the statue of Saddam came down in that square, an event which later turned out to have been staged, the percentage of Americans who thought we did good by invading Iraq surged to nearly 80%.

We can try to excuse ourselves of culpability. But we wanted these wars. The UK has a better claim to being misled by their politicians, since just as a clear majority of Americans always wanted war, at least until things began to fall apart, a clear majority of Britons always did not want war, yet Blair led you into it anyway.

[GroobyKrissy]

That last post of mine meandered a bit.

Here's a song I wrote a few years ago about our Armistice Day = Veterans Day, that expresses it better.

Armistice Day


1. Shadows lengthen quickly on November afternoons
Streetlamps flicker early to welcome winter gloom
And as the days grow shorter, memories grow long
There’s something in the air today, echoes of old songs
In each lapel a splash of red, on each corner there’s a tray
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

2. Young men mown down in thousands for a dead imperial cause
Faith in King and Country, the lie that fuels all wars
Lost generations haunt the years, women fill the void with tears
Old men march each November, reliving ancient fears
Their numbers down to nothing, as the shadows fade away
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

Bridge: I have walked the fields of Flanders, I have heard the bugles call
Wept beside the Menin Gate, and watched the poppies slowly fall
Heard the chink of rusting helmets as the ploughshares lift the clay
Remember those you never knew each sad Armistice Day

3. And our eyes lift up from Flanders mud to distant burning sands
Where boys in khaki keep the peace in angry foreign lands
Defending politicians’ lies, beneath a hostile sun
Nothing ever changes, just the young men and the guns
Watching the parades pass by, as we hear the bugles play
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

Coda: The last post and silence for all those left behind
And each slow dusk a drawing down of blinds
We share their grief just once a year, they feel it every day
Remember those you never knew each sad Armistice Day

Is this a ballad? I can imagine it to some haunting music. I know music is pretty personal but would love to hear a rendition pretty please :).

[LilyRox]

War is evil, I hate it. The truth is though without a great military, if you have great things, countries will stomp on you. It's cruel, it's not fair, but it's survival of the fittest. It always has and it always will as long as resources are scarce and people are mortal. Just like we are doing with oil and how the United States was formed. There's no polite way of saying, "hey can I take your resources and land?" without force.

[robertlouis]

Is this a ballad? I can imagine it to some haunting music. I know music is pretty personal but would love to hear a rendition pretty please :).

I've only got a solo demo of it right now Krissy. What it needs is someone to play the Last Post on solo bugle at the beginning and the end, and yes, it is a ballad in terms of tempo and time.

I'm a WW1 nut, and have now written 11 songs about various aspects of the conflict, three of which are available on record but not iTunes as yet. Where "Armistice Day" differs is that it reflects back to the 1914-18 war and then brings it up to date with Iraq and Afghanistan.

[tsmirandameadows]

Anyway, I think you're selling yourself short, Miranda. If this is a passion of yours, then pursue it.

Perhaps. But the experience of being a non-passable transsexual for such a long period of time, and the associated memories of rejection, ridicule, and ostracism, is so thoroughly seared into the flesh of my being, and the resulting scars so utterly permanent, that I can't help but now reject mainstream society and its aspirations, just like it so willingly rejected me for those long years. At the end of the day I will always be a tranny, and it will be many years yet before that ceases to be an albatross around my neck. If being trans is always going to keep me an outsider to mainstream society, no matter how successfully I otherwise integrate into it, then why is that really worth my efforts? As far as I'm concerned mainstream society can go fuck off: I'm going to make porn, get fucked for money, and not be afraid to say what I think about anyone who will judge me for it.

[GroobyKrissy]

I've only got a solo demo of it right now Krissy. What it needs is someone to play the Last Post on solo bugle at the beginning and the end, and yes, it is a ballad in terms of tempo and time.

I'm a WW1 nut, and have now written 11 songs about various aspects of the conflict, three of which are available on record but not iTunes as yet. Where "Armistice Day" differs is that it reflects back to the 1914-18 war and then brings it up to date with Iraq and Afghanistan.

What is this "record" that you speak of?

Sweet... well when it is up on iTunes let us all know, OK? I'll be your first purchase :).

[GroobyKrissy]

Perhaps. But the experience of being a non-passable transsexual for such a long period of time, and the associated memories of rejection, ridicule, and ostracism, is so thoroughly seared into the flesh of my being, and the resulting scars so utterly permanent, that I can't help but now reject mainstream society and its aspirations, just like it so willingly rejected me for those long years. At the end of the day I will always be a tranny, and it will be many years yet before that ceases to be an albatross around my neck. If being trans is always going to keep me an outsider to mainstream society, no matter how successfully I otherwise integrate into it, then why is that really worth my efforts? As far as I'm concerned mainstream society can go fuck off: I'm going to make porn, get fucked for money, and not be afraid to say what I think about anyone who will judge me for it.

So, here is where the pep talk begins and you know... all that talk about "the greater good" comes into play. That would be a correct application of the principle. If you've got something that you think is truly worthwhile to share, find a way and share it.

About two weeks ago I started to lay some groundwork into starting a non-profit. Good grief... you can't imagine how many people (good, lifelong friends!) are telling me it can't be done... can't... can't... can't. Maybe so. But it is for a cause that I deeply believe in and as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, I will make this happen... or something similar to it that I can work with if it simply isn't possible.

Anyway, you want a beginning stage? Write me up an article on this subject and I will personally pitch it to the Editor of Transformation Magazine and see if I can get it published as an opinion piece, along with a biography.

If we decide it isn't a good fit for the magazine, I'll still publish it on my personal blogs (with a disclaimer of course) and one of the other projects I am working on for TG/TS individuals to showcase their works of art or other non-porn forms of talent. It's small... but a start. There's the offer... it is what I can do within my power. The rest is up to you.

[tsmirandameadows]

While the offer is appreciated, I am so angry at the universe right now, and so unchained from the sun in terms of where I want to take my life, that I can't in good conscience take it, because I can't guarantee that it will still be something I can muster such passion for tomorrow. Perhaps when I am less isolated socially, more sure of my direction and ultimate end, more stable in my living arrangement, and finally in possession of a real life support structure, I will be able to entertain such an offer. But not now.

[GroobyKrissy]

Well, I wish you resolution and peace. When you find it, the offer is ongoing and open, assuming I am in the same position to help.

[Prospero]

This thread like almost all ofthem has managed to widen its scope.

I wanted to say two things. Firstly you Kirssy are a good person. I liked your last message a lot.

Two - respect the fact that these young men and women are out there facing the prospect of death or severe harm - for the idea that it is for our respective nations. War is appalling and almost always wrong but it is in our nature. So I too salute these young people - even if I detest in most cases the cause.

[tsmirandameadows]

Well, I wish you resolution and peace.

We'll see.

[GroobyKrissy]

This thread like almost all ofthem has managed to widen its scope.

I wanted to say two things. Firstly you Kirssy are a good person. I liked your last message a lot.

Two - respect the fact that these young men and women are out there facing the prospect of death or severe harm - for the idea that it is for our respective nations. War is appalling and almost always wrong but it is in our nature. So I too salute these young people - even if I detest in most cases the cause.

You know what else is almost always wrong? Face fucking and sodomizing people. Or wait... Almost always right? I am too tired. I shall decide this matter in the AM.

[LilyRox]

You know what else is almost always wrong? Face fucking and sodomizing people.

Sounds perfectly normal to me xD

[uchetal]

I just got back to this and I have a few comments. I show my support through my actions and not merely my words. I am not a veteran but come from a family of them (father and 9 uncles); I have had many of my students (over 28 years of teaching) go into the military after high school; many are still serving. I know still more will volunteer. As a member of my local VFW I am in the men's auxiliary and we attend every military ceremony in our city not to mention funerals. While a member of the Patriot Guard Riders I have been on a number of "missions" to escort veterans home or to their final resting place. So when I say to veterans "Thank you for your service" it comes with the utmost emotions from my heart. I may not have supported the wars and conflicts we have been in BUT... I support the men and women of the armed forces who have been in those wars and conflicts and who were prepared to go if called.

[goatman]

Very Interesting Read(VRI--Acronyms) however belatedly...from a guy that did 4.2 years(the bulk of the in the Air Force Security Police/Forces)....