Can't afford travel to grooby shoot

[Michelle Firestone]

FML. /slitmywrists & whatever else ya know. uggggggh

[tsmirandameadows]

FML. /slitmywrists & whatever else ya know. uggggggh

Ugh, that really sucks, sweetie. How much are you short? Do you have any other income right now? I'm living off just porn income right now as I change fields in my day job, and money is TIGHT, so I know the feeling.

[RallyCola]

so let me get this straight...you want us to care that you can't afford to get to a place to pose nude or have sex on camera for money?

that's not the usual complaint you hear...if you said you didn't have money to eat or pay your mortgage/rent...that might evoke some sympathy from me but I am having trouble figuring out why this is even an issue. why not have steven or the photographer you are working with front the money for your travel and just deduct it from your rate?

[Jericho]

why not have steven or the photographer you are working with front the money for your travel and just deduct it from your rate?

Lol...I can see that happening...The girls being reliable and all! :dead:

[Genetic]

Just remember it's down the road, not across the street.

[tsmirandameadows]

Wow. You guys really suck. Like REALLY suck. I'm biting my tongue here because I do kinda like this forum and don't want to burn a bridge, but honestly if trans women are going to be treated with total insensitivity and condescension HERE of all places, then I'm rethinking my involvement in this community.

Most trans women are desperately poor, can't get a legitimate job to save their life, and, if they do porn, it's because they need the fucking money to live. So yeah, it's a real possibility that you can get a call from a producer to come shoot, and you don't have the cash on hand to get there, in a presentable state, with something attractive to wear.

[bling2112]

Hi honie, You're a really hot girl, and if the agency can't send someone down to meet with you within reasonable driving distance from your place, or even show up at your place to do the shoot, That's pretty fucking cheep! Hang in there, and don't listen to the haters. I'm sure other, better offers will come up.

[dderek123]

Wow. You guys really suck. Like REALLY suck. I'm biting my tongue here because I do kinda like this forum and don't want to burn a bridge, but honestly if trans women are going to be treated with total insensitivity and condescension HERE of all places, then I'm rethinking my involvement in this community.

Most trans women are desperately poor, can't get a legitimate job to save their life, and, if they do porn, it's because they need the fucking money to live. So yeah, it's a real possibility that you can get a call from a producer to come shoot, and you don't have the cash on hand to get there, in a presentable state, with something attractive to wear.

Lots of people have left recently for frustrations with this place similar to yours. Back then this place had more of a community feel to it. I hear what you're saying but please don't go Miranda! I really like your posts and all that.

Goodluck Michelle. Would a small cash loan suffice?? Those are pretty common. I got a $300 loan with a $20 down payment one time because I was a bit desperate. It was at one of those Cash Money places.

[fivekatz]

Wow. You guys really suck. Like REALLY suck. I'm biting my tongue here because I do kinda like this forum and don't want to burn a bridge, but honestly if trans women are going to be treated with total insensitivity and condescension HERE of all places, then I'm rethinking my involvement in this community.

Most trans women are desperately poor, can't get a legitimate job to save their life, and, if they do porn, it's because they need the fucking money to live. So yeah, it's a real possibility that you can get a call from a producer to come shoot, and you don't have the cash on hand to get there, in a presentable state, with something attractive to wear.

:agree: amazing how bubbles so often provide no empathy to get into the bubble.

[Merkurie]

Wow. You guys really suck. Like REALLY suck. I'm biting my tongue here because I do kinda like this forum and don't want to burn a bridge, but honestly if trans women are going to be treated with total insensitivity and condescension HERE of all places, then I'm rethinking my involvement in this community.

Most trans women are desperately poor, can't get a legitimate job to save their life, and, if they do porn, it's because they need the fucking money to live. So yeah, it's a real possibility that you can get a call from a producer to come shoot, and you don't have the cash on hand to get there, in a presentable state, with something attractive to wear.

Well said.
Some people have all the empathy of a lizard.

[RallyCola]

Wow. You guys really suck. Like REALLY suck. I'm biting my tongue here because I do kinda like this forum and don't want to burn a bridge, but honestly if trans women are going to be treated with total insensitivity and condescension HERE of all places, then I'm rethinking my involvement in this community.

Most trans women are desperately poor, can't get a legitimate job to save their life, and, if they do porn, it's because they need the fucking money to live. So yeah, it's a real possibility that you can get a call from a producer to come shoot, and you don't have the cash on hand to get there, in a presentable state, with something attractive to wear.

all i can do is point out a few things that have been said many many times in this forum.

1) the claim has been made that girls do porn to help advertise themselves as escorts. the idea being that with notoriety as well as being able to call yourself a porn star, you increase your marketability.

2) the claim has been made that girls make more from camming than porn shoots.

taken together, if a model is neither escorting nor camming, your point about being poor may have some relevance, except that we have girls like wendy, jamie and others that point out that they have a 9-5 and don't need porn. also, one of my department assistants has her BA from stony brook (a state university in new york) and has a well paying administrative job despite the fact she is in transition. moreover, i have a friend that was a graphic designer with a large portfolio that worried about losing clients when she was finally honest about transitioning. She dressed as a dude and held back on surgeries for fear it would affect her business. after much hand-wringing, now she still has those clients and doesn't let her transition status affect her ability to get more.

My point is that even if a majority of models in porn are in fact desperate for cash, that still doesn't mean that they deserve sympathy. In my book...no one deserves sympathy for being poor...trans or not. That's not me being a dick...that is me realizing that poor people suck regardless if i find them sexy or not.

[RallyCola]

oh, and my point still stands...if a producer/photographer really wanted a model and she was trustworthy, just have them front the money and take it out of her modeling rate.

[dderek123]

"In my book...no one deserves sympathy for being poor...trans or not. That's not me being a dick...that is me realizing that poor people suck regardless if i find them sexy or not."

So you hate poor people or something?

[RallyCola]

"In my book...no one deserves sympathy for being poor...trans or not. That's not me being a dick...that is me realizing that poor people suck regardless if i find them sexy or not."

So you hate poor people or something?


no...i don't hate poor people. i just don't give a fuck about them until they ask for a handout.

to me, the idea that someone can't find a job is completely ridiculous. you may not be able to find the job you want or think you deserve, but there are jobs out there if you really need cash.

[dderek123]

no...i don't hate poor people. i just don't give a fuck about them until they ask for a handout.

to me, the idea that someone can't find a job is completely ridiculous. you may not be able to find the job you want or think you deserve, but there are jobs out there if you really need cash.
Wow man seems like you feel very strongly about this.
Empathy Level: Lizard

[Merkurie]

In my book...no one deserves sympathy for being poor...trans or not. That's not me being a dick...that is me realizing that poor people suck regardless if i find them sexy or not.

At least you are honest about how you feel about people. Most people try to wrap their disdain for poor people in some political or religious BS.

[tsmirandameadows]

no...i don't hate poor people. i just don't give a fuck about them until they ask for a handout.

to me, the idea that someone can't find a job is completely ridiculous. you may not be able to find the job you want or think you deserve, but there are jobs out there if you really need cash.

Wow. You are a terrible fucking person, and I now genuinely wish ill will towards you. Want to know what job turned my life around after three years of unemployment following graduation from college? Working with kids in the foster care system as a residential counselor. Guess what those kids were? Poor. Guess what most of them will be as adults through no real fault of their own? Poor. If you were to see even a tenth of the shit I've seen -- like a nine year old whose rear molars had rotted out of her mouth because her shitbag mother couldn't bother to take her to the endodontist whom she had been referred to 18 MONTHS earlier for advanced tooth decay. The only reason this little girl was no longer in severe pain was because the nerves in these four teeth had finally died -- you would change your tune real fucking fast.

[nysprod]

Wow. You are a terrible fucking person, and I now genuinely wish ill will towards you. Want to know what job turned my life around after three years of unemployment following graduation from college? Working with kids in the foster care system as a residential counselor. Guess what those kids were? Poor. Guess what most of them will be as adults through no real fault of their own? Poor. If you were to see even a tenth of the shit I've seen -- like a nine year old whose rear molars had rotted out of her mouth because her shitbag mother couldn't bother to take her to the endodontist whom she had been referred to 18 MONTHS earlier for advanced tooth decay. The only reason this little girl was no longer in severe pain was because the nerves in these four teeth had finally died -- you would change your tune real fucking fast.

Don't worry, Rally is going to find out what being poor or not having the job he wants or thinks he deserves is like, because brick and mortar colleges will be going the way of book and record stores within like 5 years.

Although it is possible that colleges operating online learning could earn affiliate money with like live cam sites.

[tsmirandameadows]

That nine year old girl had a ten year old brother named Alberto. When he first came to our house, he was very well-behaved, but we knew next to nothing about him. We quickly came to discover that he pretty routinely had behavioral meltdowns at school where, despite not being autistic, he would go into autistic-like blind rages in which he was unresponsive to those around him and would destroy things and hit at people. The first time this happened when he was in our care, I was the staff on duty so I immediately went to his school, arriving within 15 minutes of receiving the call. The principal was shocked -- he hadn't known that the kids had been removed from the home and placed in the foster care system -- that someone ACTUALLY SHOWED UP TO HELP ALBERTO. In the past, when he was with his mother, they would call and no one would fucking come to help him. So the school had learned to just try to deescalate him in the front office, and assume that no family would ever be there to support him or take him home.

It was during that visit that I spoke with the school counselor for an extended period of time. She expressed concern that Alberto, age 10, was being actively targetted for gang recruitment, showing me several drawing Beto had made, featuring various Norteno related symbols and iconography.

Outside of these incidents though, Beto was a sweet kid. He loved it when I would read to him at bedtime -- he once told me that reading was too hard for him to do on his own and that no one had ever read to him before outside of school. He particularly liked stories that were told from the perspective of a dog.

When he would go on weekend visits with his mother. He would return late Sunday nights, his mother having blown off both the return time and his bed time for a school night, wearing the same clothing he left in on Friday. He usually smelled terrible, and he and his siblings, arriving back at the house well after 10pm on a school night, rarely if ever had had dinner. If they did, it was because their mother had bought them McDonald's, complete with god damn Caramel Frappacinos, on the way back to the group home. Alberto's sister, who had the dental problems, once revealed to me when I asked her how her brushing was going on the weekends -- I worked very hard to coach her on brushing technique and to make teeth brushing as fun as possible -- that her mom "didn't have any toothpaste or anything." Likewise, the eldest of this sibling group, age 12, once, after having returned very late from one of these weekend passes, told me that they were late because they were "at a party" and it was very funny "because there were guys who were falling over and throwing up and stuff."

These siblings were reunited with their mother over the summer, after a summer in which their mother's care of them on passes, or lack thereof, only became worse and worse. This is what poverty looks like, and this is why most poor people are poor: there life is terribly fucked up from the get-go, and they probably aren't ever going to get out of it.

I often wonder if Alberto has had anyone read him a story in the months since he left my care.

[RallyCola]

Don't worry, Rally is going to find out what being poor or not having the job he wants or thinks he deserves is like, because brick and mortar colleges will be going the way of book and record stores within like 5 years.

Although it is possible that colleges operating online learning could earn affiliate money with like live cam sites.

the day the school i work for closes means its probably Armageddon and we are all fucked anyway. i'm tenure-track now so as long as i don't fuck up, i'm good. should i fuck up and lose my job, i will expect no sympathy or empathy because the situation would have been of my own creation.

[Wendy Summers]

taken together, if a model is neither escorting nor camming, your point about being poor may have some relevance, except that we have girls like wendy, jamie and others that point out that they have a 9-5 and don't need porn.

Comparing my situation to other transwomen is entirely unfair -- I may work hard and may be good with what I do, but it was pure luck I ended up at an employer who'd tolerate it. Many transfolks aren't that lucky.

[youngblood61]

Don't worry, Rally is going to find out what being poor or not having the job he wants or thinks he deserves is like, because brick and mortar colleges will be going the way of book and record stores within like 5 years.

Although it is possible that colleges operating online learning could earn affiliate money with like live cam sites.Damn, I hope this doesn't happen if it does I'm screwed.

[RallyCola]

Comparing my situation to other transwomen is entirely unfair -- I may work hard and may be good with what I do, but it was pure luck I ended up at an employer who'd tolerate it. Many transfolks aren't that lucky.

you realize that there are far more women in transition in the world that hold 9-5 jobs than do not.

you realize that women in porn are a very small subset of those in transition.

i don't know what your job is nor if you are good at it...but saying it is "pure luck" sells what you have earned short.

[timxxx]

RallyColla is being an asshole but he has a point about the traveling expenses,can't the photographer/Grooby send her plane or bus ticket ?

[tsmirandameadows]

you realize that there are far more women in transition in the world that hold 9-5 jobs than do not.

Now that one is plain and simple bullshit. Of all the twenty something trans women I know, there have been exactly TWO who have had 9-5 jobs. The rest have been either destitute or sex workers. The situation is a bit better for older trans women because they generally transitioned on the job after having established themselves in a career. Some still lost their career trying to transition -- there are a few such women ON THIS VERY BOARD -- but others had an employer too worried about an unlawful termination suit and kept them on. If you're not already employed and are trying to transition, you can forget about getting a job anytime remotely soon. Again, for me, it took me THREE YEARS of dedicated job searching, despite being educated, technically skilled, articulate, and fully fluent in how to conduct a targeted job search.

[Michelle Firestone]

Ugh, that really sucks, sweetie. How much are you short? Do you have any other income right now? I'm living off just porn income right now as I change fields in my day job, and money is TIGHT, so I know the feeling.

I'm short the whole $200 for traveling (amtrak was the plan, actually cheaper than a bus!) if I wasn't behind on bills, I'd just take a hit on them & do the shoot but I literally can't.

[RadiusDark]

Yea, I could give two shits about this bullshit political discussion. All I'm thinking is...

"Muuhahahaha! Perfect opportunity for the evil Radius Dark to bring this girl out to Northern Cali!"

http://greeksceptic.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/evil-laugh-picture.jpg

:) Nah, but I'd love to see a new shoot from Michelle.

[Michelle Firestone]

so let me get this straight...you want us to care that you can't afford to get to a place to pose nude or have sex on camera for money?


No I didn't ask you for anything.


why not have steven or the photographer you are working with front the money for your travel and just deduct it from your rate?

If that were an option I assume they would've suggested it. But I think they are just getting someone else to fill my spot. Thanks for the idea though. :)

[Michelle Firestone]

Just remember it's down the road, not across the street.

thanks for the tip

[Michelle Firestone]

Hi honie, You're a really hot girl, and if the agency can't send someone down to meet with you within reasonable driving distance from your place, or even show up at your place to do the shoot, That's pretty fucking cheep! Hang in there, and don't listen to the haters. I'm sure other, better offers will come up.

Thank you bling. That would be nice but I don't think they do that!

[Michelle Firestone]

Goodluck Michelle. Would a small cash loan suffice?? Those are pretty common. I got a $300 loan with a $20 down payment one time because I was a bit desperate. It was at one of those Cash Money places.

Thank you. I've tried to get loans when I was down & out before but it was no good.

[Michelle Firestone]

Yea, I could give two shits about this bullshit political discussion. All I'm thinking is...

"Muuhahahaha! Perfect opportunity for the evil Radius Dark to bring this girl out to Northern Cali!"

http://greeksceptic.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/evil-laugh-picture.jpg

:) Nah, but I'd love to see a new shoot from Michelle.

omg Butters is my favorite :P

I'd love to shoot w/you someday Radius.

[tsmirandameadows]

i don't know what your job is nor if you are good at it...but saying it is "pure luck" sells what you have earned short.

I missed this the first time around, and I have to respond. Just as you are a moral cretin, your view of human nature and capability is infantile. Why weren't you born in a third world country? What would your life prospects have been if you were born to AIDS infected illiterate dirt farmers in sub-Saharan African? The answer to the former is luck and to the latter shit. Human accomplishment is genuine, but the simple reality is that much of what determines where we will go in life is out of our hands. Yes, in the words of Milton, it is truly "in the mind to make a Hell of Heaven or a Heaven of Hell", not only morally but materially as well. But that does not mean that all Heavens of the mind will be created equal. No two things are equal or have an equal chance, and the chances we do have are largely a matter of just that: chance. Certainly it is incumbent upon us to make use of the opportunities we are given as best as we are able, but for some there will be no opportunities of note. Likewise, others will have so many opportunities that even a man of inferior character will not want for a chance to succeed. Your claim of success is worthy of praise if in fact true, but if you truly believe that your success is purely a function of your own merits, without the aid or impediment of any outside circumstance, then you are a man of very little perspective, something which is entirely consistent with the low and base character you have revealed of yourself in this thread.

Edit: A further thought -- in PM you told me that you are wealthy, that you have a fortune. Consider the etymology of the very word you use to describe your success: fortuna, fortunae, Latin 1st declension feminine noun meaning chance, fortune, or luck. You may be blind to reality, but the English language is not. But then, as we have already discussed, intelligent speech isn't exactly your forte.

[tsmirandameadows]

Have you looked into MegaBus, Michelle? The can be very inexpensive. I don't know how far you are traveling, but the two hour bus ride to where I shoot is as cheap as $1 -- yes, a dollar -- if I book ahead.

[RallyCola]

wow...i didn't realize that transwomen in america without jobs had it as bad as aids babies in africa.


sucks to be you miranda

[tsmirandameadows]

wow...i didn't realize that transwomen in america without jobs had it as bad as aids babies in africa.


sucks to be you miranda

I did not claim that and you know it. Rather, I used an extreme example because evidently you are too blind to recognize the challenges transwomen, even transwomen in AMERICUHH, face despite spending so much of your free time jacking off to their image that you would be an active participant with thousands of posts on a transporn forum.

[tsmirandameadows]

And if you are wondering why I am responding with such venom to you, RallyCola, it is merely in response to the venom you showed me. "Venom?" you say. Yes, venom, and it does not surprise me that your self-centeredness and lack of perspective has allowed you to pass through this little flame war without having recognized the venom you spewed and which triggered me so badly. You accuse the poor of "sucking", of not working hard, and you state that you resent them. I have been poor much of my life, and have had to work my ass off to get the little I have now, and I will continue to work my ass off until I have the life I want. I will not take from you the accusation that I suck, that I am lazy, that my struggles are deserved, and that I am worthy of resentment.

So piss off.

[nysprod]

the day the school i work for closes means its probably Armageddon and we are all fucked anyway. i'm tenure-track now so as long as i don't fuck up, i'm good. should i fuck up and lose my job, i will expect no sympathy or empathy because the situation would have been of my own creation.

Not closed, just very much downsized.

[Michelle Firestone]

Have you looked into MegaBus, Michelle? The can be very inexpensive. I don't know how far you are traveling, but the two hour bus ride to where I shoot is as cheap as $1 -- yes, a dollar -- if I book ahead.

Megabus would only save me like $10-15 each way over amtrak and add like 15 hours to my travel time for a roundtrip total like 60 hours lol. I'm getting to virginia from ohio. Thanks tho!

[scroller]

My point is that even if a majority of models in porn are in fact desperate for cash, that still doesn't mean that they deserve sympathy. In my book...no one deserves sympathy for being poor...trans or not. That's not me being a dick...that is me realizing that poor people suck regardless if i find them sexy or not.

That is the very definition of you being a dick. You should have your photo next to the word in the dictionary.

[nysprod]

And if you are wondering why I am responding with such venom to you, RallyCola, it is merely in response to the venom you showed me. "Venom?" you say. Yes, venom, and it does not surprise me that your self-centeredness and lack of perspective has allowed you to pass through this little flame war without having recognized the venom you spewed and which triggered me so badly. You accuse the poor of "sucking", of not working hard, and you state that you resent them. I have been poor much of my life, and have had to work my ass off to get the little I have now, and I will continue to work my ass off until I have the life I want. I will not take from you the accusation that I suck, that I am lazy, that my struggles are deserved, and that I am worthy of resentment.

So piss off.

Imagine the ego on this sanctimonious egghead...deluded to the point that he thinks anyone would give a shit what he has to say anyway.

[Rivz]

Watch out for those cash loan places, they can lead to a slippery slope if your not carefule. There this ages new loan sharks.

[RallyCola]

And if you are wondering why I am responding with such venom to you, RallyCola, it is merely in response to the venom you showed me. "Venom?" you say. Yes, venom, and it does not surprise me that your self-centeredness and lack of perspective has allowed you to pass through this little flame war without having recognized the venom you spewed and which triggered me so badly. You accuse the poor of "sucking", of not working hard, and you state that you resent them. I have been poor much of my life, and have had to work my ass off to get the little I have now, and I will continue to work my ass off until I have the life I want. I will not take from you the accusation that I suck, that I am lazy, that my struggles are deserved, and that I am worthy of resentment.

So piss off.

i am self-centered
i am an asshole
poor people suck
all three are facts of life.

[RallyCola]

Imagine the ego on this sanctimonious egghead...deluded to the point that he thinks anyone would give a shit what he has to say anyway.


you care enough to post about me. thanks for showing you care.

[tsdvdman]

FML. /slitmywrists & whatever else ya know. uggggggh
Do you escort? 2-300 bucks aint shit. Seems like you can get that with just one client. Or, get creative. Get one of these thirsty dudes who live in your area to pick you up and drive you as close to your destination as possible in exchange for a blowjob or jerkoff session. I get the sense that you are falling into that trap of looking for a handout just because you are Trans as opposed to just going out there and making it happen yourelf

[Michelle Firestone]

Do you escort? 2-300 bucks aint shit. Seems like you can get that with just one client. Or, get creative. Get one of these thirsty dudes who live in your area to pick you up and drive you as close to your destination as possible in exchange for a blowjob or jerkoff session. I get the sense that you are falling into that trap of looking for a handout just because you are Trans as opposed to just going out there and making it happen yourelf

no I don't escort. & I'm not asking for a handout.

[tsmirandameadows]

Do you escort? 2-300 bucks aint shit. Seems like you can get that with just one client. Or, get creative. Get one of these thirsty dudes who live in your area to pick you up and drive you as close to your destination as possible in exchange for a blowjob or jerkoff session. I get the sense that you are falling into that trap of looking for a handout just because you are Trans as opposed to just going out there and making it happen yourelf

Yeah, and if you don't have money for cancer treatments just start cooking meth. You are absolutely right that Michelle could get the necessary cash in one 1-hour date, but unless she already is escorting and has decided for reasons not born of financial duress that that is something she wants to do, I don't think we should be encouraging her to engage in an illegal -- at least legally gray to the point that you can be charged and convicted of a crime if things go wrong -- and dangerous activity to solve a short-term cash problem.

Besides, I read her post as wanting to express frustration of how marginal life is when you don't have a steady income. When that is your life, every little set back like this is a crush blow to your sense of worth, even if in reality it's just that: a minor set back that is easily fixed. I say this from experience btw.

[TempestTS]

no I don't escort. & I'm not asking for a handout.

There are lots of ways a model can make extra money - escorting is ONLY something you should do if your comfortable with it.

Cam work is your best bet - as a new girl you can make some good cash in very little time - start up costs very little and approval for getting on a cam site is usually pretty fast. Grooby has their own Cam site, but you can look into Kelly'sDreamhouse (part of Streamate) and Cam4 ect also look into night flirt. You can even do custom skype shows for donations (although paypal will block you if they catch you.)

Outside of Adult industry work there can be plenty of ways to make a little extra cash - temp work, seasonal retail, if there is something you are good at post an advert up on Craigslist for providing it as a service (and check for people looking for "odd job, services", this can be house cleaning, car detailing, yard work, painting, computer work, ect ect ect - the door is wide open and its cash in hand so you could make 200 in no time flat if you find someone who needs you to do something every day.

Use only that which works - Take it from anywhere you can find it.

[christianxxx]

you realize that there are far more women in transition in the world that hold 9-5 jobs than do not.

you realize that women in porn are a very small subset of those in transition.

these comments are clearly him trolling the board and of course just like always, it worked like a charm. lol

[Odelay]

these comments are clearly him trolling the board and of course just like always, it worked like a charm. lol

A troll's gotta eat (for free I might add), just like the poor guy on the sidewalk begging for a handout. Oh, the irony!

Best of luck, Michelle. And Miranda, thanks for sharing more of your story and your insights. You seem like a very cool person.

[Jericho]

Guess you could always....

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4900594-md.jpg

[GroobySteven]

Apart from this thread ONCE AGAIN showing what a asshat Rallycola is ... I think it's pretty bad form to have been posted in the first place, especially as the OP has emailed me personally before.

Do we pay or upfront travel costs to models? Occasionally, depending on the situation and locations but over the years we've had so many no-shows that the photographers, who are responsible for the shoots, rarely would advise this.
The majority of our photographers are independent, they have to pay the models out of their pockets until they in turn, get paid for the submitted shoots which could be a turnaround of up to a week. If there is a problem with a shoot then they can't get paid. Many models will re-schedule or cancel shoots up to the last minute, wasting that photographers time and any expenses they've had to outlay.

Generally we expect models to make their own way to the shoot, or they get picked up from a local point. We pay cash to the models immediately on completion of a shoot so she doesn't have to wait to get paid whatsover.

Without any dis-respect to any specific models or the OP, we have so many models who are asking for more work and requesting reshoots, that often tends to be a case of if you are in the right place and ready to go, you may get more work.

Thanks.

[Ben in LA]

Thank you, Steven.

[RallyCola]

i may be an asshat, but that doesn't mean i am wrong.

the original post was...


FML. /slitmywrists & whatever else ya know. uggggggh

so fuck her life, etc because she can't afford to get to a shoot? really? is life that bad? what about that beggar on the street or worse, the african aids baby? what should they do when their life has a roadblock?

if some dude posted, FML, i can't afford gas to get to my job...i ask you, what is the proper response if not to say, hitch a ride or get a bicycle? that this is a transwoman posting about it changes nothing.

[GroobySteven]

that this is a transwoman posting about it changes nothing.


It changes everything.
Read the rules - or take the (trap) door.

[tsmirandameadows]

And Miranda, thanks for sharing more of your story and your insights. You seem like a very cool person.

Thanks! I do what I can in that regard, lol. :)

And my apologies to the board for going off the handle yesterday evening. I was very triggered by some of what was said and the acerbity of my posts was a reflection of that. Should have just heeded my own words and bit my tongue.

[scroller]

i am an asshole



Well, we agree on that.

[RadiusDark]

Thanks! I do what I can in that regard, lol. :)

And my apologies to the board for going off the handle yesterday evening. I was very triggered by some of what was said and the acerbity of my posts was a reflection of that. Should have just heeded my own words and bit my tongue.

Stop feeding the trolls. Just add people you deem as idiots to your ignore list and keep smiling. Fuck em.

[dderek123]

^ That is great advice.

[Nikka]

this is the HA board we want!

[EvaCassini]

Hun, if there is any way you can come down to Dallas, Jamie and I can do many shoots with you for trade, so you can get lots of exposure on both of our sites. We have an extra room that you can stay over a couple days and such and we even have tequila :)

[LilyRox]

Camming pays out well if you know what you're doing. That's my best advice to you if you don't want to get a real job (which would be the right thing to do). A $80 webcam, decent internet, good sun lighting, promoting, scenery, and high skilled acting you'll make your money back in one day. Oh yeah and of course you have to be pretty.

[RadiusDark]

Camming pays out well if you know what you're doing. That's my best advice to you if you don't want to get a real job (which would be the right thing to do). A $80 webcam, decent internet, good sun lighting, promoting, scenery, and high skilled acting you'll make your money back in one day. Oh yeah and of course you have to be pretty.

Are you saying getting a real job would be the right thing to do.

or

Not getting a job would be the right thing to do.

:confused:

[LilyRox]

Are you saying getting a real job would be the right thing to do.

or

Not getting a job would be the right thing to do.

:confused:

Ops I meant getting a real job would be the right thing to do.

I had something else typed in there, but I deleted it and forgot about that part xD.

[Nikka]

LilyRox u support P.E.T.A?

[LilyRox]

LilyRox u support P.E.T.A?

No. My ex girlfriend used to though (or still does IDK). I was never into it. After a while she started getting deeper and deeper, creating a local PETA organization. It's pretty much just a cult of hate. Nothing positive can come from words so negative. I believe in the survival of the fittest and if something comes to wipe out humankind than that's life. As to members of PETA I ask them why is it okay to eat LIVING plants instead of the LIVING animals?

I don't like animal abuse at all, but to make a cult about it and view videos/pics of tortured animals everyday of your life isn't my idea of a happy life. Neither is turning on the television (United States) to the news to find mass rapes, murders and suicides. I think if everyone would stop worrying about the 5% of evil in this world and look at the 95% of things good in our life, everyone would live a happier life and crime rate would go down instead of going up. Similar to Norway and Canada.

[Michelle Firestone]

Thanks for all the advice Tempest!

[Michelle Firestone]

Guess you could always....

[IMG]http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4900594-md.jpg

noooo I don't wanna die lol

[Michelle Firestone]

Apart from this thread ONCE AGAIN showing what a asshat Rallycola is ... I think it's pretty bad form to have been posted in the first place, especially as the OP has emailed me personally before.

Do we pay or upfront travel costs to models? Occasionally, depending on the situation and locations but over the years we've had so many no-shows that the photographers, who are responsible for the shoots, rarely would advise this.
The majority of our photographers are independent, they have to pay the models out of their pockets until they in turn, get paid for the submitted shoots which could be a turnaround of up to a week. If there is a problem with a shoot then they can't get paid. Many models will re-schedule or cancel shoots up to the last minute, wasting that photographers time and any expenses they've had to outlay.

Generally we expect models to make their own way to the shoot, or they get picked up from a local point. We pay cash to the models immediately on completion of a shoot so she doesn't have to wait to get paid whatsover.

Without any dis-respect to any specific models or the OP, we have so many models who are asking for more work and requesting reshoots, that often tends to be a case of if you are in the right place and ready to go, you may get more work.

Thanks.

I don't think it was bad of me to post this. I understand the situation and I'm not asking anyone for anything. i was just expressing how upset i am. And it seems like i'm getting criticized by a few users saying i'm whining unnecessarily or something like that. But it is a big deal to me b/c I fucked it up and i'm so disappointed in myself. As you said, "Many models will re-schedule or cancel shoots up to the last minute, wasting that photographers time and any expenses they've had to outlay." I didn't want that to be me. I wanted to be reliable and now I'm not. So i failed & now I'm really pissed at myself.

And I didn't post it to get in touch with you or to start like a public conversation. The situation is settled, I canceled, another girl is going to take my place, and that's that. So there was no need to bother you. The post is about me. I'm not taking shots at anyone but myself.

[Michelle Firestone]

Thank you Odelay!

[Michelle Firestone]

Thanks for standing up for me Miranda. You didn't have to do that & it was so nice of you. :)

[GroobySteven]

I don't think it was bad of me to post this. I understand the situation and I'm not asking anyone for anything. i was just expressing how upset i am. And it seems like i'm getting criticized by a few users saying i'm whining unnecessarily or something like that. But it is a big deal to me b/c I fucked it up and i'm so disappointed in myself. As you said, "Many models will re-schedule or cancel shoots up to the last minute, wasting that photographers time and any expenses they've had to outlay." I didn't want that to be me. I wanted to be reliable and now I'm not. So i failed & now I'm really pissed at myself.

And I didn't post it to get in touch with you or to start like a public conversation. The situation is settled, I canceled, another girl is going to take my place, and that's that. So there was no need to bother you. The post is about me. I'm not taking shots at anyone but myself.


There you go all you detractors and asshats. Someone actually standing up and saying "I fucked up". How often do you hear that?


BTW Michelle your place hasn't been "taken" - just reorganized for when you can make a shoot.

[Michelle Firestone]

Hun, if there is any way you can come down to Dallas, Jamie and I can do many shoots with you for trade, so you can get lots of exposure on both of our sites. We have an extra room that you can stay over a couple days and such and we even have tequila :)

Thanks Eva, I'll definitely take you up on that when I can get out there. :) Expect an email from me sometime!

[Michelle Firestone]

BTW Michelle your place hasn't been "taken" - just reorganized for when you can make a shoot.

Thank you Steven :) That distinction is definitely comforting. In the meantime, I'm going to go work hard so this doesn't happen again.

[EvaCassini]

Thanks Eva, I'll definitely take you up on that when I can get out there. :) Expect an email from me sometime!

I am always here. I may not post much anymore but I do observe on the daily of what goes on here. I try to the best of my ability to help out girls. The thing I can help out with the most is shooting and someone to talk to. Like I said, I've got tequila. ;) <3

[LibertyHarkness]

if you have access to the internet and a pc/laptop with a webcamera then just hammer out on imlive/streamate/ifriends etc .. you will easily make 700-1000 a week on that .. and dont have to leave the comfort of your own bedroom :)

No need to escort, no need to travel to a shoot to earn one little model fee .. get some money banked then go do a trip to LA/Vegas/NYC and shoot a stack of scenes in 1 sitting ..

Flipside of camming for a month or so is you will get used to flirting, stripping, toying for the camera .. so when you come to actually do a shoot you wont be so fazed by it all ... Also add in the Porn industry isnt going anywhere, there will always be shoots going .

Why bust your nuts to travel and spunk 200dollars to travel to get paid 500dollars to 800dollars for a scene .. save some money first from cam, then go travel and do like 5 or 6 in 1 hit for Grooby, SMC and Strokers, Evil Angel in 1 hit .

That is what I would do ..

Good luck with it all xx

[STARTUP999]

Wow! I don't get how men who enjoy the TG can be so insensitive. Let's not forget just because some of them are sex workers (for which I am eternally grateful) that they are also people.

Even though this is just a virtual community, I would think that we who enjoy these ladies would be a bit nicer to them.

I wish I could have pitched in when it counted, but I have been working a lot and away from the forum. Michelle if you would like to contact me privately I would welcome it.

[nysprod]

That was super excellent advise from Libs...additionally Michelle, you'll likely make more money camming after a few more shoots are out there...also, send selfies to tumblrs like trappyfeet...you'll build a following.

[LilyRox]

That was super excellent advise from Libs...additionally Michelle, you'll likely make more money camming after a few more shoots are out there...also, send selfies to tumblrs like trappyfeet...you'll build a following.

Yeah. That's what I've been doing.

[Nikka]

why to help other people if nobody help you?

it's God's will

[littletwink]

That nine year old girl had a ten year old brother named Alberto. When he first came to our house, he was very well-behaved, but we knew next to nothing about him. We quickly came to discover that he pretty routinely had behavioral meltdowns at school where, despite not being autistic, he would go into autistic-like blind rages in which he was unresponsive to those around him and would destroy things and hit at people. The first time this happened when he was in our care, I was the staff on duty so I immediately went to his school, arriving within 15 minutes of receiving the call. The principal was shocked -- he hadn't known that the kids had been removed from the home and placed in the foster care system -- that someone ACTUALLY SHOWED UP TO HELP ALBERTO. In the past, when he was with his mother, they would call and no one would fucking come to help him. So the school had learned to just try to deescalate him in the front office, and assume that no family would ever be there to support him or take him home.

It was during that visit that I spoke with the school counselor for an extended period of time. She expressed concern that Alberto, age 10, was being actively targetted for gang recruitment, showing me several drawing Beto had made, featuring various Norteno related symbols and iconography.

Outside of these incidents though, Beto was a sweet kid. He loved it when I would read to him at bedtime -- he once told me that reading was too hard for him to do on his own and that no one had ever read to him before outside of school. He particularly liked stories that were told from the perspective of a dog.

When he would go on weekend visits with his mother. He would return late Sunday nights, his mother having blown off both the return time and his bed time for a school night, wearing the same clothing he left in on Friday. He usually smelled terrible, and he and his siblings, arriving back at the house well after 10pm on a school night, rarely if ever had had dinner. If they did, it was because their mother had bought them McDonald's, complete with god damn Caramel Frappacinos, on the way back to the group home. Alberto's sister, who had the dental problems, once revealed to me when I asked her how her brushing was going on the weekends -- I worked very hard to coach her on brushing technique and to make teeth brushing as fun as possible -- that her mom "didn't have any toothpaste or anything." Likewise, the eldest of this sibling group, age 12, once, after having returned very late from one of these weekend passes, told me that they were late because they were "at a party" and it was very funny "because there were guys who were falling over and throwing up and stuff."

These siblings were reunited with their mother over the summer, after a summer in which their mother's care of them on passes, or lack thereof, only became worse and worse. This is what poverty looks like, and this is why most poor people are poor: there life is terribly fucked up from the get-go, and they probably aren't ever going to get out of it.

I often wonder if Alberto has had anyone read him a story in the months since he left my care.

Damn, shit just got real.

[STARTUP999]

I wonder why more girls don't participate here? Oh, because the "fans" who jack off to the free samples of their work cant treat them nicely. Sad. If a TG woman cant be treated well here what must it be like in the real world for them?

[LilyRox]

I wonder why more girls don't participate here? Oh, because the "fans" who jack off to the free samples of their work cant treat them nicely. Sad. If a TG woman cant be treated well here what must it be like in the real world for them?

Hmm. I haven't experienced that yet. I think any girl that is smart and open minded can be accepted by most people. I'm glad I'm not in a spot where I can only be treated like a trophy. Just depends how girl's present their self and what type of fans they want. The only pressure I have had is just curious people that don't understand transsexuals. Questions like "so are you a guy?" can be annoying and embarrassing, but not prejudice, just uneducated.

[RadiusDark]

There you go all you detractors and asshats. Someone actually standing up and saying "I fucked up". How often do you hear that?


BTW Michelle your place hasn't been "taken" - just reorganized for when you can make a shoot.

Never.

[Ben in LA]

No. My ex girlfriend used to though (or still does IDK). I was never into it. After a while she started getting deeper and deeper, creating a local PETA organization. It's pretty much just a cult of hate. Nothing positive can come from words so negative. I believe in the survival of the fittest and if something comes to wipe out humankind than that's life. As to members of PETA I ask them why is it okay to eat LIVING plants instead of the LIVING animals?

I don't like animal abuse at all, but to make a cult about it and view videos/pics of tortured animals everyday of your life isn't my idea of a happy life. Neither is turning on the television (United States) to the news to find mass rapes, murders and suicides. I think if everyone would stop worrying about the 5% of evil in this world and look at the 95% of things good in our life, everyone would live a happier life and crime rate would go down instead of going up. Similar to Norway and Canada.
I am in full agreement.

Ironically, many of these PETA members drive around in vehicles with leather interiors as well. :yayo:

[LilyRox]

I am in full agreement.

Ironically, many of these PETA members drive around in vehicles with leather interiors as well. :yayo:

Haha yeah.

[dderek123]

Haha yeah.

The Southpark episode about PETA is really funny. Definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

[Ben in LA]

The Southpark episode about PETA is really funny. Definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
Vote or die!

[TSPornFan]

no...i don't hate poor people. i just don't give a fuck about them until they ask for a handout.

to me, the idea that someone can't find a job is completely ridiculous. you may not be able to find the job you want or think you deserve, but there are jobs out there if you really need cash.

Like I said you are a jackass. There are jobs out there. However, a Trans woman CANNOT FORCE someone to give her a job. Hell, nobody can force someone to give them a job. Employers can legally discriminate against Transgender people. The US doesn't give transgender people's work rights.

These are the same people you are attracted to. Yet, you don't have any idea what type of hardships they go through.

This isn't just about transwomen. There are many poor people who work hard. They don't get paid very well. Thus, it is hard for them to make it day to day.

Fuck You

[Nikka]

There are many poor people who work hard. They don't get paid very well.

colombians on webcam :(

[dderek123]

Like I said you are a jackass. There are jobs out there. However, a Trans woman CANNOT FORCE someone to give her a job. Hell, nobody can force someone to give them a job. Employers can legally discriminate against Transgender people. The US doesn't give transgender people's work rights.

These are the same people you are attracted to. Yet, you don't have any idea what type of hardships they go through.

This isn't just about transwomen. There are many poor people who work hard. They don't get paid very well. Thus, it is hard for them to make it day to day.

Fuck You
Once in a while I agree with you Franklin. You're a good guy.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/760/085/applause-gif-tumblr-47_original.gif?1363040789

[runningdownthatdream]

all i can do is point out a few things that have been said many many times in this forum.

1) the claim has been made that girls do porn to help advertise themselves as escorts. the idea being that with notoriety as well as being able to call yourself a porn star, you increase your marketability.

2) the claim has been made that girls make more from camming than porn shoots.

taken together, if a model is neither escorting nor camming, your point about being poor may have some relevance, except that we have girls like wendy, jamie and others that point out that they have a 9-5 and don't need porn. also, one of my department assistants has her BA from stony brook (a state university in new york) and has a well paying administrative job despite the fact she is in transition. moreover, i have a friend that was a graphic designer with a large portfolio that worried about losing clients when she was finally honest about transitioning. She dressed as a dude and held back on surgeries for fear it would affect her business. after much hand-wringing, now she still has those clients and doesn't let her transition status affect her ability to get more.

My point is that even if a majority of models in porn are in fact desperate for cash, that still doesn't mean that they deserve sympathy. In my book...no one deserves sympathy for being poor...trans or not. That's not me being a dick...that is me realizing that poor people suck regardless if i find them sexy or not.

What a complete asshole you are. You're EXACTLY the type of Indian that has the country of India in the shape it is in. Garbage.

[runningdownthatdream]

I missed this the first time around, and I have to respond. Just as you are a moral cretin, your view of human nature and capability is infantile. Why weren't you born in a third world country? What would your life prospects have been if you were born to AIDS infected illiterate dirt farmers in sub-Saharan African? The answer to the former is luck and to the latter shit. Human accomplishment is genuine, but the simple reality is that much of what determines where we will go in life is out of our hands. Yes, in the words of Milton, it is truly "in the mind to make a Hell of Heaven or a Heaven of Hell", not only morally but materially as well. But that does not mean that all Heavens of the mind will be created equal. No two things are equal or have an equal chance, and the chances we do have are largely a matter of just that: chance. Certainly it is incumbent upon us to make use of the opportunities we are given as best as we are able, but for some there will be no opportunities of note. Likewise, others will have so many opportunities that even a man of inferior character will not want for a chance to succeed. Your claim of success is worthy of praise if in fact true, but if you truly believe that your success is purely a function of your own merits, without the aid or impediment of any outside circumstance, then you are a man of very little perspective, something which is entirely consistent with the low and base character you have revealed of yourself in this thread.

Edit: A further thought -- in PM you told me that you are wealthy, that you have a fortune. Consider the etymology of the very word you use to describe your success: fortuna, fortunae, Latin 1st declension feminine noun meaning chance, fortune, or luck. You may be blind to reality, but the English language is not. But then, as we have already discussed, intelligent speech isn't exactly your forte.

Excellent points.

He's a proud Indian - one only wonders what he thinks about those Indians living in poverty and whether he identifies with them at all. Or does he only identify with the .1% with the wealth.

[bluesoul]

As to members of PETA I ask them why is it okay to eat LIVING plants instead of the LIVING animals?

are you serious about this question?

plants don't have a central nervous system so they cannot feel pain. their reaction to things like temperature (cold or hot) is strictly chemical and cellular. plants also don't have brains, so even if one was to argue that these reactions are signs of some kind of feeling, they cannot process these feelings.

i think the whole point of peta's existence is about ethics. when people cut down trees (or any kind of plant life) it's strictly, cutting it down and moving on. but have you ever watched people club seals to death? it doesn't take one blow.

btw: am not a member of peta, but i really get pissed off when i read/see/hear about someone abusing animals

[dderek123]

are you serious about this question?

plants don't have a central nervous system so they cannot feel pain. their reaction to things like temperature (cold or hot) is strictly chemical and cellular. plants also don't have brains, so even if one was to argue that these reactions are signs of some kind of feeling, they cannot process these feelings.

i think the whole point of peta's existence is about ethics. when people cut down trees (or any kind of plant life) it's strictly, cutting it down and moving on. but have you ever watched people club seals to death? it doesn't take one blow.

btw: am not a member of peta, but i really get pissed off when i read/see/hear about someone abusing animals

I hear you. I'm switching to grass fed, free range meat. I only want to eat animals that were happy and reached self actualization lol. I'm sure it's not ideal and the animals still suffer. But hey at least its more ethical than factory farms.

I used to not care about what I ate until I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Bc38i2ep0

I'm not vegetarian though. Could never do it.

[bluesoul]

I hear you. I'm switching to grass fed, free range meat. I only want to eat animals that were happy and reached self actualization lol. I'm sure it's not ideal and the animals still suffer. But hey at least its more ethical than factory farms.

actually, there are companies and farmers that advertise that their meat products come from animals that were naturally fed like:

http://www.grasslandbeef.com/StoreFront.bok

http://www.thousandhillscattleco.com/

as you said, "I'm sure it's not ideal and the animals still suffer". depends on whose definition you're going by- ours or the animals. the natural food chain is pretty brutal without our interference. and there are people who still go a little further to ensure the farmers claiming they're ethical about their beef are indeed holding their end of the bargain (portlandia actually made fun of this about a year ago)

some people think stuffing a dog in their handbag is cute, or dressing up in human clothing makes them look better- but that's actually a form of torture for animals.

btw: i mentioned portlandia. i hate that show

[LilyRox]

are you serious about this question?

plants don't have a central nervous system so they cannot feel pain. their reaction to things like temperature (cold or hot) is strictly chemical and cellular. plants also don't have brains, so even if one was to argue that these reactions are signs of some kind of feeling, they cannot process these feelings.

i think the whole point of peta's existence is about ethics. when people cut down trees (or any kind of plant life) it's strictly, cutting it down and moving on. but have you ever watched people club seals to death? it doesn't take one blow.

btw: am not a member of peta, but i really get pissed off when i read/see/hear about someone abusing animals

The problem I have with PETA is they don't typically do a lot to help. They do rescue a few animals here and there so I'm thankful for that. Protesting stuff in the streets with wearing fur and bloody signs doesn't do shit. The thing I have with PETA is they don't normally go to the source of the problem. They are more or less a cult and many members do it more of a "fashion" than actually helping animals.

[bluesoul]

The problem I have with PETA is they don't typically do a lot to help. They do rescue a few animals here and there so I'm thankful for that.

you say they "don't typically do a lot to help" but "they do rescue a few animals here and there". you don't think that's doing a lot?

you can also report animal abuse to them. have you ever checked their website to see what they actually do?


Protesting stuff in the streets with wearing fur and bloody signs doesn't do shit.

except raise awareness and get some attention to nude people when they do their "i'd rather go nude" campaign.

anyway, i think we're derailing the original intent of this thread :ignore:

[LilyRox]

Another thing people tend to forget is that becoming vegetarian doesn't "save" an animal. That's one of the biggest lines of bullshit I keep hearing. I used to be a former vegetarian for a couple years for health reasons. Whether they eat meat or not either way there is millions of pigs across the global being tortured, chopped up, and packaged. By not eating meat I guess they could say they're not supporting animal cruelty by not eating meat, but at the end of the day that doesn't do shit. Perhaps this gives people like this some type of self mental hope? I don't get it. The pig is dead whether they eat it or not, they can't erase that by not eating meat and the reality is the majority of people really don't care if they're vegetarian or not.

[bluesoul]

Another thing people tend to forget is that becoming vegetarian doesn't "save" an animal. That's one of the biggest lines of bullshit I keep hearing. I used to be a former vegetarian for a couple years for health reasons. Whether they eat meat or not either way there is millions of pigs across the global being tortured, chopped up, and packaged. By not eating meat I guess they could say they're not supporting animal cruelty by not eating meat, but at the end of the day that doesn't do shit. Perhaps this gives people like this some type of self mental hope? I don't get it. The pig is dead whether they eat it or not, they can't erase that by not eating meat and the reality is the majority of people really don't care if they're vegetarian or not.

i think you've completely missed the point about a lot of things people do in retaliation to things they don't believe in

[Jericho]

I know I'm a cunt but, so long as they taste good, i don't care! :shrug

[LilyRox]

i think you've completely missed the point about a lot of things people do in retaliation to things they don't believe in

Exactly, but it doesn't solve anything. Animal abuse will always be around as long as the majority of the people in the world are meat eaters. That isn't changing in the next 100 years. Everyone knows millions of animals are abused daily. McDonald's sales in hamburgers just proves that the majority of people really just don't give a fuck. #Theworldwelivein

[maxpower]

I'm a member...

[GroobySteven]

you say they "don't typically do a lot to help" but "they do rescue a few animals here and there". you don't think that's doing a lot?

you can also report animal abuse to them. have you ever checked their website to see what they actually do?




I was quite shocked and extremely annoyed to see what they actually do, do. They're less about animal welfare and more about just creating a noise about animal cruelty. Look up some of the facts on them on how they've looked after animals and the amount of animals they've put to death instead of finding them homes.
I'm not a fur lover, I hate hunting animals for sport and I support Greenpeace - but Peta seems more a bunch of class warfare buffons and as Lily stated, a "cult" than having real concerns about the animals.

[bluesoul]

I was quite shocked and extremely annoyed to see what they actually do, do.

a large part of it has to do with the fact that human development conflicts with nature. just consider how many fish were affected by the japanese nuclear leak- btw, another one was reported today which will undoubtedly further damage to marine life.

if that's not enough, most chemicals from medical pills are also flushed back into the ocean (via sewage after digesting) and these go on to pollute both marine + wildlife (depending on location)

personally am not a fur lover- but doing something is better than nothing (especially when we're doing so much in the other direction)

[RallyCola]

What a complete asshole you are. You're EXACTLY the type of Indian that has the country of India in the shape it is in. Garbage.


what the fuck does my grandparents being from india have to do with anything? i'm a born and bred new yorker. poor indian people suck just as much as other nationalities. you don't suck because you are born poor...you suck if you remain poor, doing nothing to change it, and whine about it or ask for a hand out. if you are poor and out of sight, i couldn't care less about you.

[GroobySteven]

what the fuck does my grandparents being from india have to do with anything? i'm a born and bred new yorker. poor indian people suck just as much as other nationalities. you don't suck because you are born poor...you suck if you remain poor, doing nothing to change it, and whine about it or ask for a hand out. if you are poor and out of sight, i couldn't care less about you.


What do you do for a living?

[Ben in LA]

Three of my co-workers at my former job were transgendered. One at my current job was as well; she transferred to another state though.

[maddygirl]

What a complete asshole you are. You're EXACTLY the type of Indian that has the country of India in the shape it is in. Garbage.
Because his nationality has anything to do with his stupidity... ?

[dderek123]

Because his nationality has anything to do with his stupidity... ?

I assumed he is Ayn Rands grandson or something like that. If it were true it would explain a lot haha.

[the_unnatural]

I assumed he is Ayn Rands grandson or something like that. If it were true it would explain a lot haha.

That was hilarious!

[runningdownthatdream]

Because his nationality has anything to do with his stupidity... ?

Thanks for clarifying - nationality has nothing to do with it but culture certainly does. Despite his being American born as he claims it's obvious that the culture that his grandparents brought from India filtered on down to him. Seems he likes the class system. This is typical of the Indians I know who either migrated directly from India or whose parents/grandparents migrated directly from India to North America.

It's something that I personally abhor about the culture.

[RallyCola]

as i claim? so now you are a birther and i'm like obama? there could be worse analogies i guess.

[LittleGuy]

This board has changed for the worse since we got a new mod.

[BBaggins06]

Could people stop quoting that asshat? I threw him back in my ignore file after reading his sociopathic rantings in this thread and I suggest y'all do the same

[maddygirl]

Thanks for clarifying - nationality has nothing to do with it but culture certainly does. Despite his being American born as he claims it's obvious that the culture that his grandparents brought from India filtered on down to him. Seems he likes the class system. This is typical of the Indians I know who either migrated directly from India or whose parents/grandparents migrated directly from India to North America.

It's something that I personally abhor about the culture.
Ah, that's true. Good point. I think he has a very warped sense of reality, as well. Most Americans think if you work hard enough you "don't have to be poor." Well, unfortunately, that's not the truth. I wish it was that easy. Many transsexuals have a very difficult time finding a job, and this is why so many end up in porn or escorting. Discrimination is rampant, and instead of looking down upon other people who wish they were granted the privileges you so easily take for granted, try looking at the situation through another perspective. That is all.

[dderek123]

http://i.qkme.me/3qtlv4.jpg

[tsmirandameadows]

Thought this was apropos:


Turning a blind eye. Giving someone the cold shoulder. Looking down on people. Seeing right through them.

These metaphors for condescending or dismissive behavior are more than just descriptive. They suggest, to a surprisingly accurate extent, the social distance between those with greater power and those with less — a distance that goes beyond the realm of interpersonal interactions and may exacerbate the soaring inequality in the United States.

A growing body of recent research shows that people with the most social power pay scant attention to those with little such power. This tuning out has been observed, for instance, with strangers in a mere five-minute get-acquainted session, where the more powerful person shows fewer signals of paying attention, like nodding or laughing. Higher-status people are also more likely to express disregard, through facial expressions, and are more likely to take over the conversation and interrupt or look past the other speaker.

Bringing the micropolitics of interpersonal attention to the understanding of social power, researchers are suggesting, has implications for public policy.

Of course, in any society, social power is relative; any of us may be higher or lower in a given interaction, and the research shows the effect still prevails. Though the more powerful pay less attention to us than we do to them, in other situations we are relatively higher on the totem pole of status — and we, too, tend to pay less attention to those a rung or two down.

A prerequisite to empathy is simply paying attention to the person in pain. In 2008, social psychologists from the University of Amsterdam and the University of California, Berkeley, studied pairs of strangers telling one another about difficulties they had been through, like a divorce or death of a loved one. The researchers found that the differential expressed itself in the playing down of suffering. The more powerful were less compassionate toward the hardships described by the less powerful.

Dacher Keltner, a professor of psychology at Berkeley, and Michael W. Kraus, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, have done much of the research on social power and the attention deficit.

Mr. Keltner suggests that, in general, we focus the most on those we value most. While the wealthy can hire help, those with few material assets are more likely to value their social assets: like the neighbor who will keep an eye on your child from the time she gets home from school until the time you get home from work. The financial difference ends up creating a behavioral difference. Poor people are better attuned to interpersonal relations — with those of the same strata, and the more powerful — than the rich are, because they have to be.

While Mr. Keltner’s research finds that the poor, compared with the wealthy, have keenly attuned interpersonal attention in all directions, in general, those with the most power in society seem to pay particularly little attention to those with the least power. To be sure, high-status people do attend to those of equal rank — but not as well as those low of status do.

This has profound implications for societal behavior and government policy. Tuning in to the needs and feelings of another person is a prerequisite to empathy, which in turn can lead to understanding, concern and, if the circumstances are right, compassionate action.

In politics, readily dismissing inconvenient people can easily extend to dismissing inconvenient truths about them. The insistence by some House Republicans in Congress on cutting financing for food stamps and impeding the implementation of Obamacare, which would allow patients, including those with pre-existing health conditions, to obtain and pay for insurance coverage, may stem in part from the empathy gap. As political scientists have noted, redistricting and gerrymandering have led to the creation of more and more safe districts, in which elected officials don’t even have to encounter many voters from the rival party, much less empathize with them.

Social distance makes it all the easier to focus on small differences between groups and to put a negative spin on the ways of others and a positive spin on our own.

Freud called this “the narcissism of minor differences,” a theme repeated by Vamik D. Volkan, an emeritus professor of psychiatry at the University of Virginia, who was born in Cyprus to Turkish parents. Dr. Volkan remembers hearing as a small boy awful things about the hated Greek Cypriots — who, he points out, actually share many similarities with Turkish Cypriots. Yet for decades their modest-size island has been politically divided, which exacerbates the problem by letting prejudicial myths flourish.

In contrast, extensive interpersonal contact counteracts biases by letting people from hostile groups get to know one another as individuals and even friends. Thomas F. Pettigrew, a research professor of social psychology at the University of California, Santa Cruz, analyzed more than 500 studies on intergroup contact. Mr. Pettigrew, who was born in Virginia in 1931 and lived there until going to Harvard for graduate school, told me in an e-mail that it was the “the rampant racism in the Virginia of my childhood” that led him to study prejudice.

In his research, he found that even in areas where ethnic groups were in conflict and viewed one another through lenses of negative stereotypes, individuals who had close friends within the other group exhibited little or no such prejudice. They seemed to realize the many ways those demonized “others” were “just like me.” Whether such friendly social contact would overcome the divide between those with more and less social and economic power was not studied, but I suspect it would help.

Since the 1970s, the gap between the rich and everyone else has skyrocketed. Income inequality is at its highest level in a century. This widening gulf between the haves and have-less troubles me, but not for the obvious reasons. Apart from the financial inequities, I fear the expansion of an entirely different gap, caused by the inability to see oneself in a less advantaged person’s shoes. Reducing the economic gap may be impossible without also addressing the gap in empathy.

Daniel Goleman, a psychologist, is the author of “Emotional Intelligence” and, most recently, “Focus: The Hidden Driver of Excellence.”

[LilyRox]

Really good advice, but I don't see how it applies here specifically. That's something that can be applied to any social interaction.

[fred41]

Really good advice, but I don't see how it applies here specifically. That's something that can be applied to any social interaction.

That's because I don't think it was meant as any type of advice.
It's more of an explanation of why a member or members would have a lack of empathy towards another social group.

[RallyCola]

http://i.qkme.me/3qtlv4.jpg

actually, i'm sure the mexicans that tend to my lawn make more money than most of you.

[LilyRox]

That's because I don't think it was meant as any type of advice.
It's more of an explanation of why a member or members would have a lack of empathy towards another social group.

I know. My point was what does that have to do with this thread?

[tsmirandameadows]

I know. My point is what does that have to do with this thread?

Have you not read any of RallyCola's posts? Dude show a distinct lack of empathy for anyone of lesser station than him, which is exactly what the article describes.

[LilyRox]

Have you not read any of RallyCola's posts? Dude show a distinct lack of empathy for anyone of lesser station than him, which is exactly what the article describes.

See you have to explain because I couldn't decide if you were directing that at RallyCola or the OP, Firestone. I guess it could be applied slightly to both, but mainly people just don't like RallyCola because he's simply a jackass. I don't think it has much to do with social status. I guess you could say his social status is bad because he's a jackass.

[fred41]

......

[tsmirandameadows]

See you have to explain because I couldn't decide if you were directing that at RallyCola or the OP, Firestone. I guess it could be applied slightly to both, but mainly people just don't like RallyCola because he's simply a jackass. I don't think it has much to do with social status.

His comments about all poor people sucking and him resenting them didn't strike you as being about social status?

[LilyRox]

His comments about all poor people sucking and him resenting them didn't strike you as being about social status?

No, he's just a jackass.

[LilyRox]

Possibly a hypocritical jackass too.

[RallyCola]

ironic isn't it...you all can talk shit about me for my honesty, but if i am honest about you, steven will ban me.

another poster can make jokes about mexican landscapers but that is ok...even though he is stereotyping a servant class and nationality...and you are still all mad at me for not liking people who won't help themselves. my landscapers are in fact mexican, they are in fact hard working people and i do pay them a hefty sum and though they don't drive around in a beamer, benz or bentley...i'd never call them poor because in my interactions with them, the carry themselves far better than some of you do here.

[tsmirandameadows]

ironic isn't it...you all can talk shit about me for my honesty, but if i am honest about you, steven will ban me.

another poster can make jokes about mexican landscapers but that is ok...even though he is stereotyping a servant class and nationality...and you are still all mad at me for not liking people who won't help themselves. my landscapers are in fact mexican, they are in fact hard working people and i do pay them a hefty sum and though they don't drive around in a beamer, benz or bentley...i'd never call them poor because in my interactions with them, the carry themselves far better than some of you do here.

I gotcha. So when you interact with someone from a lower social class, they turn out to be hard working, decent people. But when it's a lower class person in the abstract, i.e. "poor people", the only possibility is that they must be lazy and they suck. Did you ever stop to think that if you actually got to know some poor people and their struggles, a lot more of them might have the character of your gardener but also some extraordinarily heavy burdens? Certainly there must be some people out there who are poor due to laziness and bad character, but to categorize all poor people as such suggests that dismissiveness and lack of empathy which the article discussed.

And take your best shot: it's nothing I haven't heard from others or more likely from myself. I'm willing to take the hit if it sees you to the door.

[Gillian]

I like it. Articulate and sexy ... :D

[scroller]

...i'd never call them poor because in my interactions with them, the carry themselves far better than some of you do here.

.....

[maddygirl]

ironic isn't it...you all can talk shit about me for my honesty, but if i am honest about you, steven will ban me.

another poster can make jokes about mexican landscapers but that is ok...even though he is stereotyping a servant class and nationality...and you are still all mad at me for not liking people who won't help themselves. my landscapers are in fact mexican, they are in fact hard working people and i do pay them a hefty sum and though they don't drive around in a beamer, benz or bentley...i'd never call them poor because in my interactions with them, the carry themselves far better than some of you do here.
You should be completely honest. Honesty is the best policy. Not that I want to see you get banned or anything crazy like that... :whistle:

[RallyCola]

i really fail to see why i should empathize with anyone?

empathy for the poor is as useless as an asshole on an elbow...as are some forum members.

if you want to have an actual discussion, please provide for me evidence of the utility of empathy for the poor?

i also believe that most of you have no idea what empathy really is. at is core, it is recognizing someone else's emotion. it would appear as if you are tacking on to the definition of empathy, the ability respond "appropriately." you can recognize the trials and tribulations of a person and not give a fuck about them at the same time. when you layer on the constructs of cognition and affective empathy is where you begin to erroneously enjoin empathy and sympathy. i would contest that affective empathy, or having a "socially acceptable" response to someone else's emotional state is in fact a sympathetic response and one is only accused of a "lack of empathy" when a response is deemed "socially inappropriate." next, it should be clear that both the desire, ability and willingness for one to empathize is greater with those in your social circle, i.e. people of similar beliefs, customs, socio-economic backgrounds, etc. A transwoman would generally understand and empathize with another person with gender identity issues whereas a party-girl with millionaire parents will empathize with someone that posts "FML, i'm going to kill myself because i didn't get into a sorority."

finally, at issue is also the definition of poor. apparently you think "poor" only means low income people. "poor" means much more than net-worth. i know many poor people with 6-figure incomes because their life is a house of cards balanced by loans, credit card debt, 2nd mortgages and living far beyond their means. such people, i have no empathy for. poor means the inability to use your income for needs. if you don't make enough to fund your needs, NOT YOUR WANTS, you are poor and it sucks to be you.

i say it again...anything that is a matter of choice, i have no empathy for. kids born with autism, soldiers injured on the orders of politicians, people maimed in accidents not of their cause, etc...these are people whose emotional state i will empathize with simply because they had no role in their disposition. if you were born to poor parents, you have my empathy only until you are in a position to do for yourself.

[TSPornFan]

i really fail to see why i should empathize with anyone?

empathy for the poor is as useless as an asshole on an elbow...as are some forum members.

if you want to have an actual discussion, please provide for me evidence of the utility of empathy for the poor?

i also believe that most of you have no idea what empathy really is. at is core, it is recognizing someone else's emotion. it would appear as if you are tacking on to the definition of empathy, the ability respond "appropriately." you can recognize the trials and tribulations of a person and not give a fuck about them at the same time. when you layer on the constructs of cognition and affective empathy is where you begin to erroneously enjoin empathy and sympathy. i would contest that affective empathy, or having a "socially acceptable" response to someone else's emotional state is in fact a sympathetic response and one is only accused of a "lack of empathy" when a response is deemed "socially inappropriate." next, it should be clear that both the desire, ability and willingness for one to empathize is greater with those in your social circle, i.e. people of similar beliefs, customs, socio-economic backgrounds, etc. A transwoman would generally understand and empathize with another person with gender identity issues whereas a party-girl with millionaire parents will empathize with someone that posts "FML, i'm going to kill myself because i didn't get into a sorority."

finally, at issue is also the definition of poor. apparently you think "poor" only means low income people. "poor" means much more than net-worth. i know many poor people with 6-figure incomes because their life is a house of cards balanced by loans, credit card debt, 2nd mortgages and living far beyond their means. such people, i have no empathy for. poor means the inability to use your income for needs. if you don't make enough to fund your needs, NOT YOUR WANTS, you are poor and it sucks to be you.

i say it again...anything that is a matter of choice, i have no empathy for. kids born with autism, soldiers injured on the orders of politicians, people maimed in accidents not of their cause, etc...these are people whose emotional state i will empathize with simply because they had no role in their disposition. if you were born to poor parents, you have my empathy only until you are in a position to do for yourself.

This post is full of ignorance and pure stupidity. I will break now this person's stupidity.


A transwoman would generally understand and empathize with another person with gender identity issues

You've shown your true colors in this thread. You watch TS porn. However, you have no empathy towards transsexual women. You don't show them any support. Not even verbal encouragement comes out of your mouth. In fact you discourage TS women like the woman in this thread. Instead of telling her good luck or I hope you can resolve this problem, you said sucks to be me you. Your actions scream that you don't see TS women as women. You see them as sexual objects and nothing else. They're not people to you. You think they are sex toys.

I expect a TS porn viewer to have respect and empathy for TS women. All TS viewers should be educated about social issues that TS individuals face.


if you were born to poor parents, you have my empathy only until you are in a position to do for yourself.

America's economic and social structure doesn't give much room for class mobility. People will most likely die in the class they were born in. Poor people are given less educational opportunities. Poor people generally attend poorly fund schools. Poor people don't have much money to pay in property taxes. Thus their children's school has low funding. This directly affects their ability to get into a good college and finding a good paying job. It also will affect their access to health care which can greatly impact their health.

Being poor doesn't mean that you're lazy. A lot of poor people work very hard. In fact they work more hours than the people who are making millions from their labor.



i say it again...anything that is a matter of choice, i have no empathy for. kids born with autism, soldiers injured on the orders of politicians, people maimed in accidents not of their cause, etc...these are people whose emotional state i will empathize with simply because they had no role in their disposition. if you were born to poor parents, you have my empathy only until you are in a position to do for yourself.

Being poor in many cases isn't a matter of choice. Many people struggle making ends meet. It's the social and political structure that keeps people poor.

Most importantly being a TS isn't a choice. These women were born TS women. I thought you said that you would have empathy for people who are not the cause of their problems? TS women were born this way. Most poor people are trapped in a terrible social system.

God had a choice when he created you. I must say that you're one of God's mistakes. You are nothing more than a waste of space. There is no need to speak anymore. You have no voice. God's mistakes don't have the right to speak.

[tsmirandameadows]

How are you so omniscient that you know so intimately the circumstances of the lives of people whom you have never met that you feel completely comfortable in rendering judgement upon them? How do you know the indigent person before you is such purely because of their own failings and not because of things which led to them having little to "no role in their disposition"?

I've always thought of empathy as the capacity to accurately recognize and understand what someone thinks, believes, feels, and experiences, i.e. to take another's perception and temporarily make it your own. Such a definition does not appear to be especially controversial if wikipedia and the dictionary are anything to go by. If you are unwilling to consider what it would be like to be poor, to imagine what sort of downward pressure that would put on your efficacy and sense of worth and what circumstances might have led to arriving at that lot, and instead dismiss all those who have such an experience as a bunch of losers, then I think that's a pretty classic example of lack of empathy. Whether you feel pity or moved to help them is another matter, but showing some empathy would, I think, by definition lead you to reject your universal proposition that all poor people are losers, perhaps replacing it with the existential proposition that some people who are poor are losers.

As for the utility of empathy for the poor, your lack of it has done a pretty good job of alienating a fair number of forum members, and I would imagine many of your real life associates were you to speak honestly to them about how you feel about your lessers. If any aspect of your life depends upon people not thinking you're an asshole and being willing to associate with you, then I imagine not being derisive and dismissive of those who are less well off might be of benefit.

[TSPornFan]

Miranda has anyone told you that you look like a younger Jasmine Jewels?

[tsmirandameadows]

America's economic and social structure doesn't give much room for class mobility. People will most likely die in the class they were born in. Poor people are given less educational opportunities. Poor people generally attend poorly fund schools. Poor people don't have much money to pay in property taxes. Thus their children's school has low funding. This directly affects their ability to get into a good college and finding a good paying job. It also will affect their access to health care which can greatly impact their health.



And lack of educational opportunity is one of the smaller factors. Kids growing up in poverty are generally growing up in dysfunctional families and communities, where there are no adults role modeling the behavior of successful, functional members of society. Kids have to be taught everything; we forget this, but out of the womb a baby even has to be taught to nurse; all human behavior is learned, and when there are literally no good behavioral models in front of a kid, they are being put at a horrible disadvantage, likely making irreversible and life-ruining decisions before they've even reached adulthood.

[tsmirandameadows]

Miranda has anyone told you that you look like a younger Jasmine Jewels?

You're the first actually. Thank you!

[TSPornFan]

And lack of educational opportunity is one of the smaller factors. Kids growing up in poverty are generally growing up in dysfunctional families and communities, where there are no adults role modeling the behavior of successful, functional members of society. Kids have to be taught everything; we forget this, but out of the womb a baby even has to be taught to nurse; all human behavior is learned, and when there are literally no good behavioral models in front of a kid, they are being put at a horrible disadvantage, likely making irreversible and life-ruining decisions before they've even reached adulthood.

Wait just one second. Being poor doesn't equal being in a dysfunctional family or community. However, most importantly being poor doesn't make a family dysfunctional. What do you mean by good role models? Are you suggesting that being poor means that you're also a criminal? The majority of crimes are committed by the middle and upper class. Only a small amount of crimes are committed by poor people. However, the police stereotypes poor people as criminals and often drive in their neighborhoods. Most poor people do not steal, skill, or use drugs.

[Michelle Firestone]

This thread is so out of hand now lol

[BBaggins06]

This thread is so out of hand now lol

Trolls have a way of doing that ...

[Michelle Firestone]

:trolls

[RallyCola]

so much to respond to...so little time. rather than quote each point...i'll just make my own and you can figure out who/what i am rebutting.

1. i have no respect for any porn actor just because they are in porn. porn stars are entertainers. i don't respect hollywood actors, i don't respect baseball players and i don't respect wedding singers just for doing their job so why is a porn actor any different. i am NEVER going to respect someone just because they entertain me.

2. my respect for transwomen (those that deserve it) is based on far more than porn, so please spare me the "porn viewers need to respect crap..." because you don't know anything about me more than what is written here
2a...a comment was made likening my philosophy to objectivism...well, if you believe in that, you clearly support transwomen to realize what makes them happy.

3. i was born in nyc...a place where property taxes do not pay for the then board, now dept of education. my parents earned in a year what my wife and i make in a month in salary alone and we are just regular people without any acting or athletic ability and we didn't win the lotto. 'nuff said about educational opportunities and upward mobility...but realize that i know there are millions of people, probably many on this board that earn much more than i do. to quote chris rock...if oprah woke up tomorrow with my money, she'd kill herself. again...it is not about how much you earn.

4. there is no god.

5. i'm not omniscient...i just don't care about your disposition if you have no social or cultural impact on my life.

6. to allow your circumstances to negatively effect the way you feel about yourself is an issue many people face, but shouldn't. you should always strive to be better than you are regardless of what you think society, "the man" or circumstance has done to you. anything less, and you are simply hurting yourself. it is human nature to have self-doubt but it is weakness to allow it to prevail such that you don't try to continually better yourself.

6. finally, the logic that a lack of empathy is somehow deleterious and therefore represents why you should have it is not a valid argument. to say that i've "alienated" people here is irrelevant because it would mean that i'm somehow injured by that. am i? are we any less friends than before this thread started? did you respect me any more before this thread? i don't think so because i don't count any of you as friends...we are participating in an online forum and there is no chance that i will ever have a meaningful personal relationship with any of you so i don't find that our relationship has suffered at all. if our relationship was any more beneficial to you before this thread, then i believe your stake in this place is greater than my own. so, i still wish to hear valid reasons why empathy for the poor has utility. should you come up with one one that evokes a foreign response in me, that is to say that it makes me question my position, i will acknowledge. should you not want to provide a reason...then it proves that debate is pointless because we are both entrenched in our starting positions and won't cede to each other.


finally...there has been a great assumption made in this thread about my POV. Poor people suck has been morphed into me being an elitist not wanting to socialize with poor people...as if i am aloof and beat paupers off with a stick. if that is the assumption you wish to go with, that's fine because i'm not here to change anyone's mind...i'm simply here for the same reason you all are...to say what i want to say because internet forums are an objectivist's playground.

[tsmirandameadows]

Wait just one second. Being poor doesn't equal being in a dysfunctional family or community. However, most importantly being poor doesn't make a family dysfunctional. What do you mean by good role models? Are you suggesting that being poor means that you're also a criminal? The majority of crimes are committed by the middle and upper class. Only a small amount of crimes are committed by poor people. However, the police stereotypes poor people as criminals and often drive in their neighborhoods. Most poor people do not steal, skill, or use drugs.

It is not a necessary relationship, certainly not. What I'm suggesting is that poverty generally isn't something that just happens out of nowhere. Social work research strongly suggests that there are a series of external risk factors for poverty which compound each other. It is a rare family that is deeply impoverished that doesn't have some very heavy rocks in their ruck sack, like mental illness, disability, or low educational attainment, or, yes, a history of drug abuse or criminal behavior. Likewise, those families which do have histories of drug abuse and criminal behavior generally have long histories of them: it's not like mom decided to be a crack addict one day in her thirties, it's that she grew up in poverty and misery and smoked her first cigarette at age 10, had her first shot of whiskey at 11, and things proceeded from there.

You seem to be interpreting some sort of judgement against poor families on my part, which couldn't be further from the case. Having worked closely with them in a professional capacity and likewise having grown up in a poor family, I know pretty intimately the severity of some of their struggles and I could never rightly judge individuals who have been dealt such a rotten hand. But that doesn't mean poor communities are completely functional with no problems whatsoever, otherwise they probably wouldn't be poor -- see the risk factors I mentioned above. Most of the kids I worked with in the foster care system did not have fathers in their lives. If the father had an address, the most common city was Stockton. Why? There's a correctional facility there. I do not judge the father for being in prison, because I do not know his story, but I can say that when that sort of situation was so common, that indicates a community wide kind of dysfunction -- the overwhelming number of our cases were from East San Jose, by the way, i.e. a particular community. Basic stuff was not taught to the children I worked with; things as simple as brushing your teeth, to more complex ideas such as getting high on a school night is unacceptable behavior.

I could go on but here's an anecdote to close with. Our agency clinician once asked a therapy group of youth she was leading how often they thought she would cuss out adults, like teachers or cops, when she was their age. They went around and were tossing out things like once a week, or every other day, or maybe even once a day. Her response was "never, because going into a rage, cussing profusely, and threatening violence against anyone is NEVER okay, let alone against an authority figure when you're still a minor." That was news to those kids -- they thought cussing someone out is normal acceptable behavior in everyday life because in the homes and communities from which they were from IT WAS-- and had something new to think about.

[tsmirandameadows]

One quick clarification: I was not at all trying to indict single motherhood with my comment about the lack of fathers in many of the poor families of East San Jose. It occurred to me it might be interpreted as such when that is not my intent. Rather I was trying to show that the sheer frequency of something most people would agree to be bad, i.e. dad serving a long prison term, suggests that there are certain social forces within a community which facilitate such bad things.

[tsmirandameadows]

One final thought before I go to bed.

As I've mentioned earlier, behavior is learned from the social and family environment in which we are embedded. When many individuals within a community engage in deleterious behavior, that suggests something is amiss within the family/social environment. The youths I worked with generally did not see a problem with blowing off school ("Family is more important and my cousins help our family and they never finished high school."), did not see a problem with routine drug use ("Everyone cuts class a couple times a week to smoke a blunt."), saw no problem with provoking and cussing out cops ("You get that a cop can wreck your whole day if you mouth off to him,right? Yeah, but I could tell he was an asshole before he spoke and I didn't want to deal with him"), saw no problem with petty crime ("I don't see what's so wrong about shoplifting if you don't get caught."), and generally thought gang membership was a thing to aspire to, because frankly given how common gang affiliation was in those neighborhoods, you would be the odd man out if you didn't at least represent. That sort of stuff is evidence of dysfunction, and that sort of stuff is so normal to these kids because the alternative role models are so rare; heck that's a big reason why we were working with them: to present an alternative to the only life they know, so that maybe, possibly, down the line, they may want to change how they live. The parenthetical quotations are all paraphrases of actual conversations I had working as a residential counselor, btw. Again there's no judgement here, just a recognition that many of these kids had been exposed to very unhealthy behaviors to such a degree that those things were considered normal and appropriate, and that it was our job to present alternatives and get them to think through other possibilities for themselves.

[GroobySteven]

Miranda has anyone told you that you look like a younger Jasmine Jewels?


Good god, no.

[tsmirandameadows]

Good god, no.

Okay so it's not just me that wasn't seeing the resemblance, lol. Still I appreciate the (what I assume was a) compliment, Franklin! :)

[Jericho]

as if i am aloof and beat paupers off

Heh, "You're aloof and beat paupers off", is my new insult of the week! :Bowdown:

[dderek123]

Heh, "You're aloof and beat paupers off", is my new insult of the week! :Bowdown:

He gives handjobs to homeless people?

[TSPornFan]

It is not a necessary relationship, certainly not. What I'm suggesting is that poverty generally isn't something that just happens out of nowhere. Social work research strongly suggests that there are a series of external risk factors for poverty which compound each other. It is a rare family that is deeply impoverished that doesn't have some very heavy rocks in their ruck sack, like mental illness, disability, or low educational attainment, or, yes, a history of drug abuse or criminal behavior. Likewise, those families which do have histories of drug abuse and criminal behavior generally have long histories of them: it's not like mom decided to be a crack addict one day in her thirties, it's that she grew up in poverty and misery and smoked her first cigarette at age 10, had her first shot of whiskey at 11, and things proceeded from there.

You seem to be interpreting some sort of judgement against poor families on my part, which couldn't be further from the case. Having worked closely with them in a professional capacity and likewise having grown up in a poor family, I know pretty intimately the severity of some of their struggles and I could never rightly judge individuals who have been dealt such a rotten hand. But that doesn't mean poor communities are completely functional with no problems whatsoever, otherwise they probably wouldn't be poor -- see the risk factors I mentioned above. Most of the kids I worked with in the foster care system did not have fathers in their lives. If the father had an address, the most common city was Stockton. Why? There's a correctional facility there. I do not judge the father for being in prison, because I do not know his story, but I can say that when that sort of situation was so common, that indicates a community wide kind of dysfunction -- the overwhelming number of our cases were from East San Jose, by the way, i.e. a particular community. Basic stuff was not taught to the children I worked with; things as simple as brushing your teeth, to more complex ideas such as getting high on a school night is unacceptable behavior.

I could go on but here's an anecdote to close with. Our agency clinician once asked a therapy group of youth she was leading how often they thought she would cuss out adults, like teachers or cops, when she was their age. They went around and were tossing out things like once a week, or every other day, or maybe even once a day. Her response was "never, because going into a rage, cussing profusely, and threatening violence against anyone is NEVER okay, let alone against an authority figure when you're still a minor." That was news to those kids -- they thought cussing someone out is normal acceptable behavior in everyday life because in the homes and communities from which they were from IT WAS-- and had something new to think about.

I'm not saying that poor people are free from problems. Where are you getting this data? The majority of people who use illegal drugs are middle class and upper class whites. Poor people uses the least amount of drugs. However, they are arrested the most because cops hangout in poor neighborhoods.

Just because YOUR community and some others have problem doesn't make them the MAJORITY. The majority of poor neighborhoods have good law bidding citizens.

Poor families have history of drug abuse? Almost every family from every class has at least relative at one point in history who had a drug problem. It's in every family.

[Nikka]

do u believe in God?

[tsmirandameadows]

I'm not saying that poor people are free from problems. Where are you getting this data? The majority of people who use illegal drugs are middle class and upper class whites. Poor people uses the least amount of drugs. However, they are arrested the most because cops hangout in poor neighborhoods.

Just because YOUR community and some others have problem doesn't make them the MAJORITY. The majority of poor neighborhoods have good law bidding citizens.

Poor families have history of drug abuse? Almost every family from every class has at least relative at one point in history who had a drug problem. It's in every family.

From social work research and practical experience working directly with these families and communities? No offense, Franklin, but how long did you work for your county's Department of Family and Children Services? It feels as if your entirely noble impulse to not judge or censure these families and communities is beginning to drift into white washing over the very real and severe problems they have, as if being a counterbalance to right-wing villainization will somehow help them even if it is just as ignorant of their reality.

Please don't take offense to what I say. I wish I could say the problems these communities face were as simple as too low a minimum wage and unequal school funding, because then it would be so easy to improve their lives. The reality of practicing social work is that the issues that surround poverty are so complex, interdependent, and thorny that the practitioner immediately realizes they are in for a Sisyphean struggle where at best they can hope to make just marginal changes, just some of the time. The majority of those kids I worked with are in for very sad futures because by the time we got them they were just so traumatized, poorly socialized, and plain messed up by the horrific experiences that had shaped their lives to that point. It's as if by age 15 the priceless vase that is their life has been shattered into a million pieces, and you're trying to put it back together, but you don't know what it looked like to begin with and you don't have enough glue, dooming you to failure and the youth in question to being the next generation of the indigent. It was that underlying tragedy and horror that ultimately drove me away from the field: it was eating away at my soul and utterly breaking my heart. To suggest that these kids, the next generation of poor people, have had A-okay lives in fine families and communities and it's just low wages and underfunded schools keeping them down really strikes me as not understanding the reality of their lives.

Please don't take offense, Franklin. I think you are a really cool guy and I think you have absolutely the right impulses and spirit with regard to those who are in a bad spot. I just don't think you could work a few years as a residential counselor or CPS worker or county social worker and still come away with the same diagnosis of poverty's origins.

[TSPornFan]

From social work research and practical experience working directly with these families and communities? No offense, Franklin, but how long did you work for your county's Department of Family and Children Services? It feels as if your entirely noble impulse to not judge or censure these families and communities is beginning to drift into white washing over the very real and severe problems they have, as if being a counterbalance to right-wing villainization will somehow help them even if it is just as ignorant of their reality.

Please don't take offense to what I say. I wish I could say the problems these communities face were as simple as too low a minimum wage and unequal school funding, because then it would be so easy to improve their lives. The reality of practicing social work is that the issues that surround poverty are so complex, interdependent, and thorny that the practitioner immediately realizes they are in for a Sisyphean struggle where at best they can hope to make just marginal changes, just some of the time. The majority of those kids I worked with are in for very sad futures because by the time we got them they were just so traumatized, poorly socialized, and plain messed up by the horrific experiences that had shaped their lives to that point. It's as if by age 15 the priceless vase that is their life has been shattered into a million pieces, and you're trying to put it back together, but you don't know what it looked like to begin with and you don't have enough glue, dooming you to failure and the youth in question to being the next generation of the indigent. It was that underlying tragedy and horror that ultimately drove me away from the field: it was eating away at my soul and utterly breaking my heart. To suggest that these kids, the next generation of poor people, have had A-okay lives in fine families and communities and it's just low wages and underfunded schools keeping them down really strikes me as not understanding the reality of their lives.

Please don't take offense, Franklin. I think you are a really cool guy and I think you have absolutely the right impulses and spirit with regard to those who are in a bad spot. I just don't think you could work a few years as a residential counselor or CPS worker or county social worker and still come away with the same diagnosis of poverty's origins.

I haven't worked in social work. I have studied the problem in many sociology classes. Sociology is a study that branched from social work. The poor's problems are created by the social structures such as education, government, economic system, etc.

Underfunded schools are a major factor that impacts their lives. They're not getting a quality education. Thus, they are disadvantaged at getting a good job or going to a good school. However, that's only part of the problem.

I'm not saying that every poor family is a-okay. There are some poor families who have major problems and they need help. However, I'm saying that they don't make up for the majority of criminals and drug users.

[tsmirandameadows]

I haven't worked in social work. I have studied the problem in many sociology classes. Sociology is a study that branched from social work. The poor's problems are created by the social structures such as education, government, economic system, etc.


And would you not agree the family, neighborhood, and community are also social structures that can help or hinder an individual's life prospects? I suspect we agree far more than we disagree. I haven't been meaning to discount the importance of quality education or fair wages, but rather looking at the kids I worked with, the problems they have faced are far wider reaching. Most of these kids could have had the best funded school in the world, with the world's best teachers, right there in their very neighborhood and they still would have floundered because they were so poorly socialized and emotionally traumatized. In fact, the charter school that Alberto, the boy I mentioned several pages back in this thread, went to is an EXTREMELY good one -- and I say this as someone who disagrees with the charter school concept -- but he was not doing well academically or socially there, at all. My terror is that now that he's in middle school it's just a matter of time before he gets recruited for a gang...

[RallyCola]

do u believe in God?

i don't. belief in god has caused just about as much death, despair and heartache than it has "solved."

[Genetic]

thanks for the tip

No problem, I love being helpful when attention seekers threaten to kill themselves over trivial issues and cheapen the plight of people who really are suicidal.

Next time you have another bout of hysteria I'll teach you how to use the multi-quote function so you can reply to everyone in one post rather than having to post multiple times.

[Michelle Firestone]

No problem, I love being helpful when attention seekers threaten to kill themselves over trivial issues and cheapen the plight of people who really are suicidal.

Next time you have another bout of hysteria I'll teach you how to use the multi-quote function so you can reply to everyone in one post rather than having to post multiple times.

lol :)

[Nikka]

do not betray god!

[RallyCola]

did you ever notice that god is dog spelled backwards.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/diu/dogs_ass.jpg

[iagodelgado]

do not betray god!

traiciona?

God I hate it when your English is better than my Spanish!

[Jericho]

do not betray god!

Nor Harry Potter!

[EvaCassini]

Nor Quentin Tarintino! :p