WAR

[ddubose31]

In war these type of things will always happen even with kids. As soldiers we don't go looking to kill women and kids but certain missions allows for certain things to happen by mistake. It boils down to how careful will you be when it comes down to you coming home in box or do you go in blazing and assess the damage later.

[scroller]

Murderer. Don't go in the first place.

[ezed]

don't try to justify killing children...EVER...

I don't believe he is. Don't judge unless you've been there and had bullets flying at you. It's a whole other world. Only people who are there can cast an opinion. You just don't know shit! You ain't there. You ain't under fire. AND DON'T CALL A SOLDIER IN THE US ARMED FORCES A FUCKING MURDERER UNLESS YOU HAVE A FIRST PERSON ACCOUNT THAT THIS WAS HOW A SITUATION WENT DOWN!

JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY, SUPPORT THE SOLDIERS WILL YA! HALF THESE RAG HEADS WITH AN AGENDA WOULDN'T THINK TWICE ABOUT THROWING THEIR KIDS IN THE LINE OF FIRE TO GET A CLEAR SHOT AT THE ENEMY (US).

Please, don't be so judgemental about things which you have no clue. If you want to attack anyone, attack the fucks you put in office. DO NOT SHIT ON OUR SOLDIERS, THEY'RE OVER THERE IN A FUCKING SHITHOLE DEFENDING YOUR FREEDOM.

God, no wonder the rest of the world thinks we're assholes. We've turned into a bunch of angry typing guys, while real people carry out the will of our elected leaders. You're pissing on the pawns, if you feel that strongly go face to face with your elected rep.

Fuck it!

[DeathFox]

@ezed

Oh really? So Iraq is a threat to America's freedom?

[DamionXXX]

Я Люблю Вас Ulyana, я Люблю только Вас ... теперь и для остальной части моей жизни.

[DeathFox]

But the guy said Iraq IS A THREAT TO AMERICA'S FREEDOM. So that must be the main reason why US Armies come barging into Iraq and making it a shitty country. And compared to when Saddam was in-charge to the Americans being in-charge now in Iraq, you can say Saddam's reign is paradise compared to what the Americans did.

[DamionXXX]

Я Люблю Вас Ulyana, я Люблю только Вас ... теперь и для остальной части моей жизни.

[MacShreach]

we shouldnt be over there, we all know it... but dont say you hate our soldiers, they are just doing a job, if they go awol they go to jail...

we arent right, I think bush is a moron and a cocky redneck who has put our foriegn relations back 50 years...

dont blame the grunts for the problem, they are following orders, trust me they wanna come home...

yoru not wrong death fox, just your hate needs to be pointed in the right direction... fuck bush... there is something we can agree on, hows that...

Oh I'll agree on that.

Anyone who thinks we're talking about a couple of potential bombers in a car here needs to realise we are in a whole new ballgame now. Haditha:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5030960.stm

My Lai turned the tide of US public opinion and ended with the US leaving Vietnam. Lieutenant Calley, the officer on the ground in that massacre, was court-martialled and the Administration did everything it possibly could to distance itself from the massacre. It didn't make any difference, the US public lost stomach for the war. Deprived of public support for the war, the Administration could not divert the increasing amount of money to fighting it that would have been needed to win, and after a decade and tens of thousands of lives lost, the US left Vietnam having achieved precisely nada.

Haditha is not on the scale of My Lai, where literally hundreds of civilians were massacred, many after being raped and tortured, but I think it will prove to be just as important. And the excuses given-- of combat stress, men fighting in a war where they did not know who was the enemy, are disturbingly similar to the excuses being trotted out now for Haditha. How can we, the US and UK, accuse monsters like Saddam Hussein when he can turn and point the finger of blame at us? That's the trouble with the moral high ground; if you take it, you'd better be ready to hold it, otherwise the whole thing is crocked, and that is exactly what has happened to the US and, to a lesser extent, the UK, because of what's happened on the ground in Iraq.

I'm not criticising footsoldiers, nor am I saying the US is the only country whose soldiers commit atrocities. What I am saying is that 1) there has been a clear breakdown of command and control in the field; 2) the only reason anybody else is in Iraq is because the US is in Iraq; 3) for all their faults and sometimes parochial attitude towards international politics, the US public has always turned against murder carried out in its name, and when the US public withdraws support for war, the game is over. We have been here before.

There was a clear failure of command and control at Haditha. I seem to recall a previous US President once had a sign on his desk saying that was where the buck stopped. No doubt the soldiers responsible for Haditha will be thrown to the wolves as the army command and the US Administration rush to nail blame on anyone else but themselves. But the man really responsible for those dead women and kids is George W Bush.

Whatever the reasons for being in Iraq are, they're history. The future is defined by what happens now. I think it's increasingly obvious that the end result of the Iraq conflict will be the partition of the country into separate ethnically-based nations, one or more of which will be pathologically opposed to the US and the West in general, and which will become a breeding ground for Islamist fundamentalism. Commentators close to govt on both sides of the pond are already talking about the "Balkanisation" of Iraq.

Doubtless the US and UK will prop up a puppet government of a small fortress area around Baghdad for PR purposes, but like Karzai's Govt in Afghanistan it will be ineffectual outside of the immediate area of the capital. In a tragically comic twist of fate, Al Qaeda were not active in Iraq before the invasion; well they sure are now, and the area will almost certainly become their principal training camp.

All this is exactly the outcome the US and British Governments have always said they were determined to prevent, right from the very start. Events like Haditha just make it more likely. Funny how history repeats itself.

If you doubt me, consider this; last month the US was as good as threatening, or at least refusing to rule out, military action against Iran over its nuclear programme. No negotiation or discussion was to be entered into. The Haditha story broke and then what? Yesterday the US announces it is now happy to come to the table and parley, and will even give economic assistance to Iran if it agrees to play nice. All lovey-dovey and peace and reason, let's not fight, fellas. If that's not an instant political U-turn caused by an event in the field I don't know what is.

[LG]

Like I said...

America's young fighting men are following orders and fighting for their lives as well as to protect what they have been told are the values of American society. They are not the ones to blame.

In many cases, the people who are fighting them are also fighting for their lives, fighting to get rid of what they perceive is the big bully, fighting because they too have been told that what they are doing is right. They are often not the ones to blame either.

But what is the neccessity of keeping so many troops for so long in Iraq when two soldiers seem to get killed, on average, every day? The American troops have done enough damage. America invaded Iraq on a pretext that was later proven to be false. There were no weapons of mass destruction. Was the US government truly certain there were, or was it a convenient excuse for some people and some industries to make big money? You decide.

The American soliders had no way of knowing who was in that vehicle. It is also possible, probable even, that the people in the vehicle did not hear the warnings. It may have been a costly misunderstanding and this is sad.

I think that the vast majority of American soldiers would not want to harm unarmed civilians (although there have been documented cases of some soldiers mistreating people and even of soldiers hurting or raping civilians, these cases are few and far between and the soldiers in question are often mentally unbalanced).

I have immense respect for the soldiers and am sad to see them die, just as I am sad to see so many innocent Iraqis die. What I do not respect is the men, often people who dodged the draft or got a cushy position in the army, who send the soldiers down to fight, those who want to send other people's children to a war that has no point and never ends, a war that is occuring for reasons that only they themselves seem to know. What I do not respect is the system that encourages the death of Americans and locals in a place so far away from America.

Are America's soldiers fighting to protect their country? In my opinion, not really, although they may believe this why they fight. Even if Iraq posed a danger to the US before, and we have no proof it did, despite the unjustified comments by the US president, it is certainly true that Iraq poses no danger now.

So perhaps America's young men and women are not fighting to uphold life, liberty or the American way. Perhaps they are merely being sent to uphold private interests.

Could it be that America is sacrificing its youths to dig itself into a hole that they will have some trouble getting out of. Remember Vietnam?

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

[HeHateMe]

Like Damion, I served in 91 and 95 as an Apache helicopter pilot (1st Cav). I "terminated" my share of ragheads from the sky above. That was my mission. I obey orders and do not ask questions. The enemy is the enemy, and collatoral damage is just that.

You anti-war pussies typing this anti-soldier bullshit piss me off. Have any of you EVER served your country? Probably not. You like to hide behind your computer and type BS, while our soldiers are out there protecting your right to do so. I am sick at my stomach right now......

Keep up your anti-war and anti-soldier rhetoric. I hope they reinstate the draft and you pussies end up in the desert. You will be glad to see an Apache fly overhead with its guns blazing in glory!!

--I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like VICTORY!

[tslvrnyc]

I'm shocked that you get 18 year old kids who go bezerk when tossed into a 3rd world shithole warzone with heavy weaponry.

[CaliBoy951]

I agree with ezed, I was in the Marine Corps from 1990-1994, and yes it sucks when women and children die, but war is just that....war! I agree, that perhaps we do NOT belong there, but those troops are following orders. Lets support our troops, and if you really have issues then vote, and make a change.

Just my thoughts!!!!!

[scroller]

You anti-war pussies typing this anti-soldier bullshit piss me off. Have any of you EVER served your country? Probably not.

Thanks for protecting my freedom to do it, LOL.

Maybe you should go beat your wife & kids some more, then I'll feel really extra-protected, thx a bunch, hugs & kisses, enjoy burning in hell for murder!

[scroller]

In all seriousness, though, you guys in the military need to take personal responsibility for your actions. There's no moral, ethical, or legal basis, under any system in history, for "I had my orders" negating responsibility for anyone's actions. It's tough, but if you really have any honor you'll own up to the shitty things (if any) you've done.

I've voted against Bush. I've donated money against him. I've protested multiple times. I've written letters to all my congressmen not to go into Iraq. I've volunteered time on anti-Bush campaigns.

You guys in the military have options, too.
- Say you're a conscientious objector. Get tough when the interogator tries to convince you you're not.
- Engage in civil disobedience, and agree to go to jail instead of killing innocents. Again, suck it up and do the right thing.
- Say you're gay and get discharged. (Can't believe anyone reading this would say that, right?)

Read Tim O'Brien's (author, Vietnam vet) story "On the Rainy River" and see how much this applies (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE5DF1039F932A25750C0A9669582 60&n=Top%2FFeatures%2FBooks%2FBook%20Reviews)

Embarrassment, the author reveals in ''On the Rainy River,'' is why he, or rather the fictional version of himself, went to Vietnam. He almost went to Canada instead. What stopped him, ironically, was fear. ''All those eyes on me,'' he writes, ''and I couldn't risk the embarrassment. . . . I couldn't endure the mockery, or the disgrace, or the patriotic ridicule. . . . I was a coward. I went to the war.''


Seriously, what's the right thing to do: Follow orders and kill innocents? Or leave your buddies and go to jail? And which is really the tougher gut-check?

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

we shouldnt be over there, we all know it... but dont say you hate our soldiers, they are just doing a job, if they go awol they go to jail...

we arent right, I think bush is a moron and a cocky redneck who has put our foriegn relations back 50 years...

dont blame the grunts for the problem, they are following orders, trust me they wanna come home...

yoru not wrong death fox, just your hate needs to be pointed in the right direction... fuck bush... there is something we can agree on, hows that...

Are you trying to say that they were put there against their will?

Werent they familiar with their "job description"?

A soldier is not a job. You have to like it to do it.
You are paid to carry a gun, and most likely kiil people.


Unless you believe that they are peacemakers, as someone said...

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

Like Damion, I served in 91 and 95 as an Apache helicopter pilot (1st Cav). I "terminated" my share of ragheads from the sky above. That was my mission. I obey orders and do not ask questions. The enemy is the enemy, and collatoral damage is just that.

You anti-war pussies typing this anti-soldier bullshit piss me off. Have any of you EVER served your country? Probably not. You like to hide behind your computer and type BS, while our soldiers are out there protecting your right to do so. I am sick at my stomach right now......

Keep up your anti-war and anti-soldier rhetoric. I hope they reinstate the draft and you pussies end up in the desert. You will be glad to see an Apache fly overhead with its guns blazing in glory!!

--I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like VICTORY!

You have to seek professional help
There are many therapists, go find one

And btw, whos rights are your soldiers protecting?

[chefmike]

Like Damion, I served in 91 and 95 as an Apache helicopter pilot (1st Cav). I "terminated" my share of ragheads from the sky above. That was my mission. I obey orders and do not ask questions. The enemy is the enemy, and collatoral damage is just that.

You anti-war pussies typing this anti-soldier bullshit piss me off. Have any of you EVER served your country? Probably not. You like to hide behind your computer and type BS, while our soldiers are out there protecting your right to do so. I am sick at my stomach right now......

Keep up your anti-war and anti-soldier rhetoric. I hope they reinstate the draft and you pussies end up in the desert. You will be glad to see an Apache fly overhead with its guns blazing in glory!!

--I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like VICTORY!

I served four years on the flight deck of the "Shitty Kitty", and my brother-in-law is a former AF pilot who now flies for Delta and Air National Guard, so you can stow that "Top Gun" bullshit, pilgram...I'm not impressed...

As others have stated, there is a difference between anti-military and anti-war...Nam was a needless waste of lives and taxpayer dollars, as is Iraq...
I'm not questioning what happened at Haditha or in this incident, I wasn't there...but Rumsfeld and his neocon cronies should be hanging from a lampost like Mussolini...

And keep making jokes about napalm...you're crackin us up...

As for just following orders, ever hear of the Nuremberg trials, cadet?

[ezed]

who's angry? you sit on an internet message board with your all caps like it makes it more meaningful...you don't know me, or anyone else on this board, personally, so you can save your rhetoric...

You're right I don't know you.



I have nothing against American soldiers, do you want to quote where I said that? I bet you can't, because I didn't say it...but don't try to tell me that having troops over in Iraq is being done to protect my freedom...it is being done to fulfill a vendetta, and pad the pockets of our corrupt president...you got one thing right...Iraq IS a shithole...a shithole that presents no threat to anyone but itself...


You're right again, I was directing that comment to the previous poster who called the soldiers murderers. But regarding freedom, in the Soldiers minds they are there to protect our freedom not from a threat from Iraq as a nation but an ideal that pervades the region that thinks its okay to kill 3000 plus citizens in a day.



and I get so tired of guys like you using that same tired argument every time...by the way, I didn't vote Bush in...I was part of the farce that was the 2000 Election, where the Illuminati stole it for Bush...I also voted against him in 2004, even though I didn't feel any candidate was good...but Bush is one of the top 3 most unsuccessful presidents ever, and is edging closer daily to being the worst (Hoover, you better make room)...get over yourself...

By the way, I don't like Bush and administration either or Kerry or Cheney, or Clinton. What I am saying is lay off the soldiers and attack the politicians. You didn't vote them in but get them out. Make your feelings known...to them.

By the way, our invasion of Iraq was due to us being pressed by Saudi Arabia to get our bases out of Saudi Arabi long before we invaded Iraq. We needed a platform in the middle east with a port on the oceanic waterways. Iraq was conveinient for Bush since Sadam had dissed his dad. There were WMD's but they were probably useless outside their own borders. But the same press you love to cite was shoving WMD's down our throats then. If it wasn't Iraq it probably would have been Syryia.

As far as the soldiers accomplishing something, they are. They are within quick strike capability of anywhere in the Mid East. We are keeping there attention and resources focused on attacking us over there as opposed to hitting us again over here. That is defending our freedom. And your soldiers are the targets. I call that defending our freedom. JACKASS!