American soldiers make me sick

[DeathFox]

They just killed an Iraqi pregnant woman and unborn child. These sick American bastards

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed;_ylt=Atf.luG72SWtnbVfFi4dtb.s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

[SpoolDyou]

and other country's armies have not?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

dude there are countries in the Middle East that have towns that still have the old deep religious values, that are to this day brutally attacking women

[thmack]

and other country's armies have not?

if thats how your gonna argue then you need help

[roy404]

They just killed an Iraqi pregnant woman and unborn child. These sick American bastards

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed;_ylt=Atf.luG72SWtnbVfFi4dtb.s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

I personally have been shot at by old people of both sexes, a child of 10 and women some which I am sure were PG. I am also sure I have probably killed at least one from each of those groups
It does not make it right. The fog and horror of war extends to all involved. I think there must have been a few PG ladies as well as kids in the WTC.
War is that. If this country's actions botther you then vote for whom ever you think will help or even better how about you running on your belief's.

[SpoolDyou]

and other country's armies have not?

if thats how your gonna argue then you need help

I would have to agree...saying its okay because other uncivilized shithole countries do it is pathetic...

in no way did i say its okay. don't put words into my mouth. im obviously stating that there are other countries to hate for teh same thing.

[ezed]

They just killed an Iraqi pregnant woman and unborn child. These sick American bastards

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed;_ylt=Atf.luG72SWtnbVfFi4dtb.s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

Read the story! "The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings."

How many US soldiers are dead from sucide car bombers. Do you think any of the soldiers there had a clue that woman were in the car.

Why the fuck am I posting to this thread, none of you angry typing guys has a clue about real life. You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.

LEAVE THE FUCKING SOLDIERS ALONE! IF IT BOTHERS YOU ALL THAT MUCH, GET UP OFF YOUR FUCKING CHAIRS, TURN OFF YOUR FUCKING COMPUTERS, PULL UP YOUR PANTS, AND GIVE UP JACKING TO SHEMALES FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND GO TO WASHINGTON OR YOUR LOCAL REP'S OFFICE AND SAY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE.

Christ you're a bunch of fucking soap box retards. Put yourself in the soldier's shoes, in their mind their risking their life for you. And you're pissing on them. If you're sincre in your beliefs then get up off your ass and make your thoughts known to your reps. You'll be back in time to catch up on the threads and see the next episode of "The Apprentice" . Meanwhile, they'll be sitting in the dark wondering if that speeding car that's approaching is a fucking moving bomb or just some dumb fuck not paying attention and talking on his cell phone.

[stillies77]

they cut our heads off!!!

[DamionXXX]

IЯ Люблю Вас Ulyana, я Люблю только Вас ... теперь и для остальной части моей жизни.s...

[LG]

America's young fighting men are following orders and fighting for their lives as well as to protect what they have been told are the values of American society. They are not the ones to blame.

In many cases, the people who are fighting them are also fighting for their lives, fighting to get rid of what they perceive is the big bully, fighting because they too have been told that what they are doing is right. They are often not the ones to blame either.

But what is the neccessity of keeping so many troops for so long in Iraq when two soldiers seem to get killed, on average, every day? The American troops have done enough damage. America invaded Iraq on a pretext that was later proven to be false. There were no weapons of mass destruction. Was the US government truly certain there were, or was it a convenient excuse for some people and some industries to make big money? You decide.

The American soliders had no way of knowing who was in that vehicle. It is also possible, probable even, that the people in the vehicle did not hear the warnings. It may have been a costly misunderstanding and this is sad.

I think that the vast majority of American soldiers would not want to harm unarmed civilians (although there have been documented cases of some soldiers mistreating people and even of soldiers hurting or raping civilians, these cases are few and far between and the soldiers in question are often mentally unbalanced).

I have immense respect for the soldiers and am sad to see them die, just as I am sad to see so many innocent Iraqis die. What I do not respect is the men, often people who dodged the draft or got a cushy position in the army, who send the soldiers down to fight, those who want to send other people's children to a war that has no point and never ends, a war that is occuring for reasons that only they themselves seem to know. What I do not respect is the system that encourages the death of Americans and locals in a place so far away from America.

Are America's soldiers fighting to protect their country? In my opinion, not really, although they may believe this why they fight. Even if Iraq posed a danger to the US before, and we have no proof it did, despite the unjustified comments by the US president, it is certainly true that Iraq poses no danger now.

So perhaps America's young men and women are not fighting to uphold life, liberty or the American way. Perhaps they are merely being sent to uphold private interests.

Could it be that America is sacrificing its youths to dig itself into a hole that they will have some trouble getting out of. Remember Vietnam? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

[latrix67]

I spent 7 years in the 101st airborne division and 1 year of that time was in Iraq, kuwait and Daharan saudi arabia... also a year in korea on the de militarized zone

I never saw a soldier purposley kill a civillian...

We didnt have a choice if we wanted to be there, and these kids dont either... please try not to paint them with broad strokes, yes just like in any profession, police, teachers, painters, prostitutes whatever... there are bad people in every walk of life...

saying you hate US soldiers is just as bad as being a racist

Hate the president for putting them in harms way under false pretences...

I am not defending the culprits here, but if you ever visit that armpit of the world remember that insurgents live among the civillians and th

ey love nothing more than to use them as decoys or shields, they want to put us in situations wehere we hurt or kill civillians...

hate the few bad apples, hate bush, but dont hate guys that dont even want to be there to begin with... we have a stoploss program in effect where active duty soldiers can be forced to stay in until the army is done with them...

I respect them for having the worlds shittiest job, and for all the wonderfull things they do that CNN wont show on the news...


I've been to 'the sandpit' as well & the soldiers job is a very dangerous one.Just look at the number of lives lost so far by the U.S & us in the U.K,Two more British & American this week alone.
We in the British Forces follow 'the rules of engagement' as I'm sure so does the U.S Forces.
After each killing there is a investigation by the military.The findings go up the chain of command & any further action is taken if nesisary.
But ponder this,Even with the ROE's, IF you were the one on patrol & you came under hostile fire,How much time do you think you'd have to refer to the ROE?

[MacShreach]

I spent 7 years in the 101st airborne division and 1 year of that time was in Iraq, kuwait and Daharan saudi arabia... also a year in korea on the de militarized zone

I never saw a soldier purposley kill a civillian...

We didnt have a choice if we wanted to be there, and these kids dont either... please try not to paint them with broad strokes, yes just like in any profession, police, teachers, painters, prostitutes whatever... there are bad people in every walk of life...

saying you hate US soldiers is just as bad as being a racist

Hate the president for putting them in harms way under false pretences...

I am not defending the culprits here, but if you ever visit that armpit of the world remember that insurgents live among the civillians and th

ey love nothing more than to use them as decoys or shields, they want to put us in situations wehere we hurt or kill civillians...

hate the few bad apples, hate bush, but dont hate guys that dont even want to be there to begin with... we have a stoploss program in effect where active duty soldiers can be forced to stay in until the army is done with them...

I respect them for having the worlds shittiest job, and for all the wonderfull things they do that CNN wont show on the news...


I've been to 'the sandpit' as well & the soldiers job is a very dangerous one.Just look at the number of lives lost so far by the U.S & us in the U.K,Two more British & American this week alone.
We in the British Forces follow 'the rules of engagement' as I'm sure so does the U.S Forces.
After each killing there is a investigation by the military.The findings go up the chain of command & any further action is taken if nesisary.
But ponder this,Even with the ROE's, IF you were the one on patrol & you came under hostile fire,How much time do you think you'd have to refer to the ROE?

I agree with both of you. Saying that you hate soldiers or that they make you sick is just ridiculous. We're all happy enough to have our lives and property protected by them.

Anyone who has either been a soldier or been close to soldiers under fire knows just how stressed they become, and in a active hostile-fire situation, being an unidentified person, civilian or otherwise, in range of and presenting a target to a unit of any armed force coming under that fire is, well, an uninsurable risk. In a country famous for car suicide-bombers, anyone driving through a military checkpoint without stopping is practically begging to draw fire.

(A long time ago I was in Northern Ireland and got used to checkpoints. Many years later I was driving though Europe just after the border controls had been lifted, not really paying attention, and drove straight through a border checkpoint without realising what I had done till I was past it. To my wife's horror I STOOD on the brakes and screeched the car to a halt, half-expecting to hear rounds impacting and literally shaking. Course the checkpoint wasn't even manned and anyway it was France, not NI. My wife thought I was nuts, but don't tell me people in places like Iraq don't know about checkpoints. Please.)

What's come to light in Iraq recently is not like that though; in Haditha a Marine was killed and a fire fight ensued; but after that was over it is alleged, with pretty strong evidence, that the Marines entered homes and brutalised and killed non-combatant women and children. That is simply unacceptable, both in terms of those who pulled the triggers, but even more in terms of the gross failure of the command structure. These Marines were operating as a unit under the control of an officer; that officer's training should have made him rein the situation in quickly. Any time, any where you have more than one soldier, then one of them is senior and is expected to take command. The responsiblity of command includes ensuring that the ROE's are observed. That this did not happen, apparently, in Haditha either means that the officers effectively ordered the killings (either directly as was the case at My Lai or indirectly by not ordering an immediate cease-fire) or that their soldiers had run amok and were in fact in full mutiny. One way or the other that's a command-chain failure.

In situations like this you can't just blame the infantrymen; the command chain must be blamed as well. As I've said elsewhere, the buck stops at a desk in the Oval Office.[/i]

[Quinn]

none of you angry typing guys has a clue about real life. You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.

Cosign.

To make a sweeping indictment against all American soldiers, which Deathfox’s first, unedited statement clearly did, shows both ignorance and an obvious bias.

Deathfox, until you have served and seen any form of combat, you don’t have the slightest clue what in the fuck you are talking about.

-Quinn

[latrix67]

none of you angry typing guys has a clue about real life. You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.

Cosign.

To make a sweeping indictment against all American soldiers, which Deathfox’s first, unedited statement clearly did, shows both ignorance and an obvious bias.

Deathfox, until you have served and seen any form of combat, you don’t have the slightest clue what in the fuck you are talking about.

-Quinn

Eliquintly put and straight to the point as always,Quinn
I totally agree.
L67

Cry haddock & let slip the cod's of war!

[HeHateMe]

DeathFox:

Why don't you move the Iraq and see if they let you chase trannies over there. See how long you survive in the desert before crying for "Mommy".

This is HHM, 1st Cav., Apache, signing off.

[latrix67]

DeathFox:

Why don't you move the Iraq and see if they let you chase trannies over there. See how long you survive in the desert before crying for "Mommy".

This is HHM, 1st Cav., Apache, signing off.

He would'nt survive 5 seconds in the chow line! (Or 3 seconds in the NAAFI for that matter!!)
L67

[HeHateMe]

LOL L67. So you were in the sandpit with BF. Cool. I was flying above it all!

[InHouston]

The car was ordered several times to stop, and the checkpoint was clearly marked with signs. It's a damn shame, but it is what it is. If the man would have stopped, they wouldn't have opened fire, and the good American soldiers would have been more than able to assist the pregnant woman with her labor.

It's the driver's fault.

[latrix67]

LOL L67. So you were in the sandpit with BF. Cool. I was flying above it all!

Was there with the RAF in 91 & again with the TA (reservist) a year or so ago.

[tslvrnyc]

Oh the irony....


I wonder what kind of punishment one would receive in the Islamic world for frequenting a website called HungAngels.

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

they cut our heads off!!!

If someone busted into your town and fucked everything while killing people, what would you do?

America should reconsider the role of the "international peacemaker", and instead of giving a shitload of many for military purposes, should give that money to feed the homeless and educate the thousants of teenagers who believe that the capital of the US in New York

[ezed]

Did you even read the article?

Jassim's brother, who was wounded by broken glass, said he did not see any warnings as he sped his sister to the hospital. Her husband was waiting for her there.

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives."

I think the guy was referring to bastards like you.

And Carbombers? Hmmm... these sick retards must be bored in life so they decide to do some crazy stuff and blow themselves, THEIR ACTIONS HAVE NOTHING to dowith the fact that American soldiers are constatly killing civilians unprovoked.

Go kiss Bush's ass you sanctimonious son of a bitch

I guess I don't need to respond after all the posts that have occured in the mean time. Think, you asshole. Try to put yourself in the mindset of the individuals involved in the incident both Iraqis and Americans, and the reporters reporting it. What motivate what they say,or what they write.

By the way, I don't especially like Bush or his administration. That's why I told you to go to Washington. You remind me of my dog, when she grabs the tip of the roll of toilet paper and goes tear assing around the house with the paper streaming behind her thinking in her pea brain mind "See What I Got! See What I Got!"

[DeathFox]

^ Hmmm... my sister is in great pain. So I guess I should just carry her on my back and carry her for miles, and walk slowly. That way, I wont get "accidentally" shot. I guess since you assholes doesn't know what it feels like to see someone die, you can say all that crap

[samstl99]

Deathfoxx.. well I actually have seen people die and it is not a pretty sight. You are missing the point. The check points are there, ALL OVER.. and they are clearly marked. (the BBC confirmed this). The Guy was an idiot and just made a mistake. In the past.. when soldiers see a car blazing towards them.. with no signs of slowing up.. EVEN when they instruct them to.. Those Cars usually Blow up and KILL Soldiers. THAT is what goes through their minds when they see that.

Lets see how you react when you see your friends die from cars racing towards you.. and blowing up.. then see a car race towards you.

Regardless of what they feel or dont feel.. Orders are orders.. If a car fails to yield to the instructions and warnings.. you OPEN fire. After all the bombings you dont take risks.

The driver Fucked up, and in his haste he didnt pay attention... that is why the woman died. I mean shit he was going to the hopsital because she was in Labor NOT DYING. AND FYI.. at the majority of the check points there is a Red Cross truck stationed there to give assistance.

[BSMike]

war sucks. let's remember why we're here; for the girlz.

has Kim Devine done any films recently. she was one of the first actresses I really became enamoured with:

[The_VIP]

they cut our heads off!!!

If someone busted into your town and fucked everything while killing people, what would you do?

America should reconsider the role of the "international peacemaker", and instead of giving a shitload of many for military purposes, should give that money to feed the homeless and educate the thousants of teenagers who believe that the capital of the US in New York

So .. you want America to stop being an international peacemaker? Without us, when was the UN gonna get off its ass and handle the genocide in Bosnia .. the cival war brutality going on in Sudan. You could say one problem is that the U.S. doesn't step in enough. Who knows how many millions have been killed in utterly brutal wars in central Africa. I won't for one second condone the killing of civilians. Its wrong, its tragic, and its a waste. However I understand soldiers trying to protect themselves. And if that story holds true that those people went through a checkpoint when they weren't supposed to, then its a tragic occurence, but the soldiers can't be blamed for defending themselves. Haditha is something else all together. Anyone involved in the killings there are trying to cover it up should be tried under the fullest extent of the law. Prison time, or execution for such a tragedy is just under those circumstances. But don't go around shouting about the U.S. is the evil and the world and we need to keep to ourselves. The world has a big problem with sitting on its ass. Nobody likes to get their hands dirty, but when some garbage happens, they love to blame somebody for creating it, or allowing it to happen.

[GroobySteven]

So .. you want America to stop being an international peacemaker?

Yes, I'd love them to stop and concentrate on their own country and protecting it instead of interfering needlessly with others which are mainly to instigate their own foreign policy and not about democracy or freedoms.
seanchai

[LG]

You Americans sure had a funny way of making peace in Vietnam.

And why does America never realise that it has created far more enemies than friends in the Middle East with its methods. Peacemaker? More like a big bully some of the time.

Or a puppeteer. America's puppeteering expertise dates back to the 1850s with Nicaragua (America's involvement in Nicaragua continued in the 1980s when the US supported the Contras who were freedom fighters or terrorists depending on who you believe).

The US supported Pol Pot and Saddam in their early days as dictators and there is some evidence to suggest that the US supported some Islamic terrorist factions. And say what you want about Fidel Castro (and you'll probably be right) but the man he replaced was a dictator who took Cuba by force and was openly supported by the US Government.

Castro is a communist who ousted a US supported leader? No wonder you can't buy Cuban cigars in America!

True, the UN never does get off its ass, but the neither the UN or the US did anything in Rwanda. Remember that one? Nearly a million died in 100 days. Two million were dispaced. The UN pulled out and the US did nothing. Why? Maybe Rwanda's lack of natural resources (read: oil and natural gas) has something to do with it.

And yes, America did help to save the day in WWII, but Americans often disregard Britain's involvement. It was the Brits who cracked the German Enigma code that was used for U-boat communication. America joined only after they had been attacked by Japan (Japan's attack on Peral Harbour was possibly the biggest military error of judgement ever made), and helped to save Europe.

But the fact that the Europeans had managed to hold on for so long should tell you something. The French, despite being governed by a government that supported the Nazis, had not given up. The British had taken a few knocks but were working at attacking. The Russians had managed to stop Hitler thanks to their army and their weather (another big error of judgement, this time by the Nazis, who were crushed in Russia). The defeat in Russia proved important.

Don't forget that the Greeks had not only withstood to but defeated an Italian army that was numerically and technically superior, thanks to their fighting spirit, prompting Churchill to say that heroes fight like Greeks.

America has done a world of good. But it has also done many wrong things. Just accept it. Accept that you cannot be selective in where you choose to make peace or why. Peace serves its own cause not the financial interests of an elite few.

And accept that you cannot make peace by waging a war

[mkfreesite]

people get killed
you must have forgotten 9/11
its b/c ppl here in the states do not support the troops that america is losing the war
too much redtape to even shoot enemies even tho they are shooting at americans
its silly

[DeathFox]

people get killed
you must have forgotten 9/11
its b/c ppl here in the states do not support the troops that america is losing the war
too much redtape to even shoot enemies even tho they are shooting at americans
its silly

I got two words you

"Loose Change"

[The_VIP]

You Americans sure had a funny way of making peace in Vietnam.

And why does America never realise that it has created far more enemies than friends in the Middle East with its methods. Peacemaker? More like a big bully some of the time.

Or a puppeteer. America's puppeteering expertise dates back to the 1850s with Nicaragua (America's involvement in Nicaragua continued in the 1980s when the US supported the Contras who were freedom fighters or terrorists depending on who you believe).

The US supported Pol Pot and Saddam in their early days as dictators and there is some evidence to suggest that the US supported some Islamic terrorist factions. And say what you want about Fidel Castro (and you'll probably be right) but the man he replaced was a dictator who took Cuba by force and was openly supported by the US Government.

Castro is a communist who ousted a US supported leader? No wonder you can't buy Cuban cigars in America!

True, the UN never does get off its ass, but the neither the UN or the US did anything in Rwanda. Remember that one? Nearly a million died in 100 days. Two million were dispaced. The UN pulled out and the US did nothing. Why? Maybe Rwanda's lack of natural resources (read: oil and natural gas) has something to do with it.

And yes, America did help to save the day in WWII, but Americans often disregard Britain's involvement. It was the Brits who cracked the German Enigma code that was used for U-boat communication. America joined only after they had been attacked by Japan (Japan's attack on Peral Harbour was possibly the biggest military error of judgement ever made), and helped to save Europe.

But the fact that the Europeans had managed to hold on for so long should tell you something. The French, despite being governed by a government that supported the Nazis, had not given up. The British had taken a few knocks but were working at attacking. The Russians had managed to stop Hitler thanks to their army and their weather (another big error of judgement, this time by the Nazis, who were crushed in Russia). The defeat in Russia proved important.

Don't forget that the Greeks had not only withstood to but defeated an Italian army that was numerically and technically superior, thanks to their fighting spirit, prompting Churchill to say that heroes fight like Greeks.

America has done a world of good. But it has also done many wrong things. Just accept it. Accept that you cannot be selective in where you choose to make peace or why. Peace serves its own cause not the financial interests of an elite few.

And accept that you cannot make peace by waging a war

I won't disagree with you in that America has supported many seedy governments in the past, and still do to this day. Unfortunately our government justifies these allegiances so to speak as a means to an end. In a complicated world, you get complicated associations. We played Saddam off against Iran, my guess is we may have supported Pol Pot because if we didn't, he would have been in Soviet hands. And we have always been meddling in central and south american affairs, to keep in line with our democratic or more likely economic needs. And yes I remember Rwanda, a million dead in a 100 days. Unfortunately we stood pat and allowed that to happen. But as you said, the UN pulled out, not us.

But please, don't dictate WW2 history to me. While I give great support to Britian surviving that air campain the Luftwafa had to bring them down, and also the British cracking the enigma code, with the U.S., there is no way Britain surives. We all know about the endless amount of convoys the U.S. sent to Britian giving all kinds of supplies, from food to weapons materials and things of that nature. Without these materials, lack of resources would have kept the British from being able to continue the fight versus the Germans.

American armies rooted the Germans out of Italy, France, etc. You spoke of of the Soviet Red Army stopping the Germans. They did do that. However America gave the Soviets tremendous amounts of weapons and money to keep them in the fight versus the Germans. Not to say they wouldn't have held their own without us, but we did support their effort.

But to get to the real nitty gritty. Franklin D. Roosevelt was sending materials to Britian, and actually manuevered some deals with Churchill to give them some navy ships and such. FDR was trying to start the U.S. war machine, but also wanted to join the war at the appropriate time, chances are that Congress wasn't going to along with FDR wanting to join the war. We got our hands dirty once saving Europe, why bother again right?

Perhaps the whole situation could have been stopped before it started. The Germans openly broke the rules imposed on them concerning army strength size, naval size, etc. Europe looked away. The Germans took Austria and the Sudentenland(i know, terrible spelling) in 38, Britian and the France don't want to get their hands dirty, so what they do , appease Hitler, give him what he wants, and go home and tell their civilians, there's still peace to be had.

Africa today is a real tragedy. So many of the countries are spliced together with tribes and cultures that don't belong together, that are simply powderkegs waiting to blow, or have gone off, or every other year go off. Nothing but war, starvation, poverty, genocide, etc. Perhaps this wouldn't be a problem if Europe didn't carve Africa into little colonies for their countries with no fucking regard for the indigenous people. Now a century later, look at all the shit thats been caused because of it, and UN likes to sit on its hands about it, and America gets criticism when it doesn't go in to fix the problems. America should have stepped in during the tragedy in Rhwanda, or the civil war in the Congo that pulled in 5 or 6 other African countries. America didn't create this situation, but of course, if its to be fixed, we probably need to help.

Concerning the middle east, yes, American policy hasn't helped the situation much in the middle east. Of course, it mainly stems from us being the main backers of the creation of Israel, and steadfastly telling anyone that were their #1 ally, and you fuck with the, and you fuck with us. Many arab nations don't like that, I understand that has created the problem with the Palestinians, a problem that has gone on for 30+ plus years. However after Germany killed 6million jews in WW2, Truman felt that they suffered more than enough, and best protection for the jewish people was the creation of their own state. Now we're involved in Iraq, and its a tremendously dirty situation there. However, lets not forget that Iraq the powderkeg wouldn't be a powderkeg if the British who created the country of Iraq maybe wouldn't have slapped together cultures that usually don't see eye to eye.

Obviously America has done a lot of wrong in this world. A lot of tragic things have occurred because of us, and a lot of innocent people have paid the price. But we've done a lot more good than bad. And while it may sound cliche to say we act in the name of freedom and democracy, our actions speak to that. It is more than most countries can fuckin say. They'll bash us to their blue in the face, but they'll be the first in line to ask us to clean up their mess.

I myself hope that in the years to come we can truely fix Iraq. But if America has to go alone, then so be it. Nobody else has proven to be up to the cause.

[MacShreach]

LG it's a bit OT but please-- "Proved important?"-- The Russians were the ones who defeated Hitler, both in the simple sense, in that they captured Berlin, and in the more complex sense, in that their brilliant tank warfare of the last two years, directed by Marshal Zhukov, was what forced Hitler to remove his best forces from the Atlantic Wall and make a successful invasion of Normandy even possible. The Red Army would unquestionably have rolled up the Wehrmacht and put an end to Hitler with or without D-Day. D-Day just made the end happen a few weeks earlier. Maybe. In fact the US and French push from the south of France probably did as much good as the Normandy Invasion, though it's often forgotten today.

Credit where credit is due, and of all the Allies the Russians suffered the most from Hitler's forces, who regarded Slavs as sub-human. It is entirely true that the Western Allies, the US as the quartermaster and the British Merchant and Royal Navies transporting the materiel, kept Russia going though 1942 and 43, but after D-day Allied forces only had to fight two major battles, the break-out from the Falaise Pocket and the Battle of the Bulge. Why? Because because the Wehrmacht's best divisions were either committed or had already been destroyed on the Eastern Front.

That was why Berlin ended up buried deep inside what was to become East Germany. This Russian military success, which was completely unexpected by the Americans, inspired the "Fortress Europe" policy which became the Cold War. From the fall of Berlin on, Western planners believed that a Soviet breakout would cross the Rhine in 3 days and reach the coast in 5, despite all the forces the Western Allies had stationed there. That was the reason why tactical atomic weapons were deployed in West Germany, and ultimately why strategic nukes proliferated.

The Normandy offensive was of no great import to the destruction of Hitler's Germany. What it did do, however, was prevent Stalin from rolling clear to the North Sea and simply replacing Hitler's Empire with a Soviet one in Western Europe, as did happen in Eastern Europe. That was enormously significant, and for it you can thank Churchill, who had been convinced for years that Stalin would go for the land grab, while Roosevelt, in a rare lapse of judgement, actually took Stalin for a man of his word.

Western strategists were shocked by the Russians' crushing defeat of the Wehrmacht, but they at least gave the Red Army the respect it deserved afterwards.

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

they cut our heads off!!!

If someone busted into your town and fucked everything while killing people, what would you do?

America should reconsider the role of the "international peacemaker", and instead of giving a shitload of many for military purposes, should give that money to feed the homeless and educate the thousants of teenagers who believe that the capital of the US in New York

So .. you want America to stop being an international peacemaker? Without us, when was the UN gonna get off its ass and handle the genocide in Bosnia .. the cival war brutality going on in Sudan. You could say one problem is that the U.S. doesn't step in enough. Who knows how many millions have been killed in utterly brutal wars in central Africa. I won't for one second condone the killing of civilians. Its wrong, its tragic, and its a waste. However I understand soldiers trying to protect themselves. And if that story holds true that those people went through a checkpoint when they weren't supposed to, then its a tragic occurence, but the soldiers can't be blamed for defending themselves. Haditha is something else all together. Anyone involved in the killings there are trying to cover it up should be tried under the fullest extent of the law. Prison time, or execution for such a tragedy is just under those circumstances. But don't go around shouting about the U.S. is the evil and the world and we need to keep to ourselves. The world has a big problem with sitting on its ass. Nobody likes to get their hands dirty, but when some garbage happens, they love to blame somebody for creating it, or allowing it to happen.

You made me smile...

If you believe that US make wars to save people, then i dont have anything more to say

Bosnia case: Of course the "genocide" ended, since you killed the one part that was fighting. Btw, that is a genocide too, since u used chemical weapons.

Sudan case: Dont make me laugh...

Irak case: Thank god you destroyed that country. Now we dont fear that they will nuke the whole world. Never mind they didnt have nukes. If they had? Also, irak will be a heaven on earth when the american construction companies rebuild it


Your country has financial problems, educational problems, social problems, energy problems.

Try and fix all that, and then make the world "a better place".

And remember, nobody asked u to do it, and as it seems, you are completely incapable of doing it.

Yoy refreshed your missle stock though, and thats a victory for certain circles in your countrys administration.

I dont know what you believe, but as it seems , many thinking Americans agree that you shouldnt mess with the rest of the world.
And that is very hopefull....

[Quinn]

And yes, America did help to save the day in WWII, but Americans often disregard Britain's involvement. It was the Brits who cracked the German Enigma code that was used for U-boat communication. America joined only after they had been attacked by Japan (Japan's attack on Peral Harbour was possibly the biggest military error of judgement ever made), and helped to save Europe.

But the fact that the Europeans had managed to hold on for so long should tell you something. The French, despite being governed by a government that supported the Nazis, had not given up. The British had taken a few knocks but were working at attacking. The Russians had managed to stop Hitler thanks to their army and their weather (another big error of judgement, this time by the Nazis, who were crushed in Russia). The defeat in Russia proved important.

Don't forget that the Greeks had not only withstood to but defeated an Italian army that was numerically and technically superior, thanks to their fighting spirit, prompting Churchill to say that heroes fight like Greeks.


I think LG makes some really great points. British resolve – in the face of what appeared to be overwhelming odds – played a key role in winning the war. Put in the same position, I think most other nations would have done what Hitler expected the Brits to do: sue for peace. Let's face it, if the Brits had done so, the Germans would have had a much freer hand in conducting Operation Barbarossa. British resolve during military conflicts has always impressed me (Rorkes Rift, The Battle of Britain, etc.).

Your point concerning the Greeks is also incisive. If it weren't for their trouncing of the Italians, Germany would have been able to launch Operation Barbarossa as much as a month earlier than it actually did, which might have proven crucial in the conduct of said campaign (the weather and all). Thanks to the Greeks, Hitler had to delay the campaign because he had to send troops south.

Concerning the whole Italian thing, I’ve read some very interesting articles by some very noted scholars claiming that Italy was one of the main reasons Germany lost the war. Think about. The Italian army during WWII was a joke by then modern standards, both in training and equipment (look at their tanks and subs for example). Italian failures in Africa and Greece caused the Germans to divert considerable resources at crucial times. But hey, who am I to judge the building of 5 and 10 ton tanks – when others were building thirty, forty, and fifty ton tanks – a bad idea? Mussolini's idea to forbid the Italian Navy from building aircraft carriers was another great idea. It's not like carriers were, and still are, a decisive tool in naval warfare or anything.....

-Quinn

[chefmike]

Which reminds me of a joke...one that we used back in the day... to piss off a hated (though gifted) Italian chef that I once worked for...

Q: How do the Italians march into war?

A: With their hands over their heads...

[MacShreach]

Bosnia case: Of course the "genocide" ended, since you killed the one part that was fighting. Btw, that is a genocide too, since u used chemical weapons.


.

The only chemicals here are those swimming round your lame brain. NATO forces did not use chemical weapons in Bosnia. Are you perhaps one of those benighted individuals who believe the Serbs got a raw deal in Bosnia?

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

Bosnia case: Of course the "genocide" ended, since you killed the one part that was fighting. Btw, that is a genocide too, since u used chemical weapons.


.

The only chemicals here are those swimming round your lame brain. NATO forces did not use chemical weapons in Bosnia. Are you perhaps one of those benighted individuals who believe the Serbs got a raw deal in Bosnia?

My brain is in a perfect condition and has nothing to do with chemicals.
So, keep your idiotic comments for your friends.

You have your opinion, and i have mine.

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

[MacShreach]

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Perhaps you should lead the way, twat.

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Perhaps you should lead the way, twat.

You are such an :jerkoff

But the sadest thing of all is that you have a right to vote...

Dont waist my time

Go play with your friends

[MacShreach]

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Perhaps you should lead the way, twat.

You are such an :jerkoff

But the sadest thing of all is that you have a right to vote...

Dont waist my time

Go play with your friends

So, lemme see, we have what here? an expat Serb or a Greek with Serb sympathies? Must be kinda difficult being a Serb, I suppose, now that the world knows what you did. I mean, when people ask, what do you say?

"Where are you from?"

"I'm a Serb."

"Oh yeah? Eaten any babies recently?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Quinn]

Bosnia case: Of course the "genocide" ended, since you killed the one part that was fighting. Btw, that is a genocide too, since u used chemical weapons.


.

The only chemicals here are those swimming round your lame brain. NATO forces did not use chemical weapons in Bosnia. Are you perhaps one of those benighted individuals who believe the Serbs got a raw deal in Bosnia?

My brain is in a perfect condition and has nothing to do with chemicals.
So, keep your idiotic comments for your friends.

You have your opinion, and i have mine.

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Friedrich, with all do respect, while you are entitled to your opinion, the fact is that it need not merit consideration as being valid. For example, there are still people who believe that the Earth is flat (Flat Earth Society, etc.) – despite the fact that there exists conclusive and overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. Like you, they, too, are entitled to have an opinion, but the lack of supporting evidence reduces said opinion to little more than a punch line at the party.

To the best of my knowledge, there doesn't exist one iota of credible evidence indicating that NATO ever used chemical weapons during its actions against an indisputably murderous Serb war machine. If you believe such an event took place, provide support. What type of Chemical weapon was deployed? How was it deployed?

-Quinn

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Perhaps you should lead the way, twat.

You are such an :jerkoff

But the sadest thing of all is that you have a right to vote...

Dont waist my time

Go play with your friends

So, lemme see, we have what here? an expat Serb or a Greek with Serb sympathies? Must be kinda difficult being a Serb, I suppose, now that the world knows what you did. I mean, when people ask, what do you say?

"Where are you from?"

"I'm a Serb."

"Oh yeah? Eaten any babies recently?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I am Greek with serb sympathies and not a Serb

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

Bosnia case: Of course the "genocide" ended, since you killed the one part that was fighting. Btw, that is a genocide too, since u used chemical weapons.


.

The only chemicals here are those swimming round your lame brain. NATO forces did not use chemical weapons in Bosnia. Are you perhaps one of those benighted individuals who believe the Serbs got a raw deal in Bosnia?

My brain is in a perfect condition and has nothing to do with chemicals.
So, keep your idiotic comments for your friends.

You have your opinion, and i have mine.

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Friedrich, with all do respect, while you are entitled to your opinion, the fact is that it need not merit consideration as being valid. For example, there are still people who believe that the Earth is flat (Flat Earth Society, etc.) – despite the fact that there exists conclusive and overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. Like you, they, too, are entitled to have an opinion, but the lack of supporting evidence reduces said opinion to little more than a punch line at the party.

To the best of my knowledge, there doesn't exist one iota of credible evidence indicating that NATO ever used chemical weapons during its actions against an indisputably murderous Serb war machine. If you believe such an event took place, provide support. What type of Chemical weapon was deployed? How was it deployed?

-Quinn

It is very interesting that plenty of people torn their clothes about NATO forces not using chemicals .

Do i have the honor to speak to certified NATO experts or participants ?

Btw, your example about flatness of the earth and opinion carriers is too dumb , if you dont mind my saying. You can do so much better if you try

You (plural) made your opinion clear. NATO and USA are the international peacemakers, and thank god there is America to save the world, and how nice are the soldiers who went to plenty of countries and didnt use force and didnt kill people and didnt use chemical or biological weapons, and the bombs they dropped left nothing but fresh air behind instead of chemical left outs. (Do i have to specify in detail what i mean by saying chemicals?)

And now,btw, Bosnia and Iraq are magnificent places to live...

You are free to believe whatever you want. I also believe that it is very hard for you to say the oposite than what you allready said.

But you will never make me believe that war is the solution for international liberty.It is completely impossible. Especially from a country that has GWB as a president.

Its like fucking for virginity, as many ppl said.

[MacShreach]

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Perhaps you should lead the way, twat.

You are such an :jerkoff

But the sadest thing of all is that you have a right to vote...

Dont waist my time

Go play with your friends

So, lemme see, we have what here? an expat Serb or a Greek with Serb sympathies? Must be kinda difficult being a Serb, I suppose, now that the world knows what you did. I mean, when people ask, what do you say?

"Where are you from?"

"I'm a Serb."

"Oh yeah? Eaten any babies recently?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I am Greek with serb sympathies and not a Serb

So they're your pals, and you condone what they did. Well, Nato did not, ever, use chemical weapons anywhere in the Balkan conflict. The Serbs did practise genocide an a massive scale; rape, torture and murder non-combattant civilians routinely; lie, prevaricate and obstruct anyone who attempted to prevent then from prosecuting their barbarous and bloodthirsty campaign of murder and ethnic cleansing.

It is true that atrocities were committed by all sides in Bosnia, all sides that is except the UN and NATO. But the masters of mass murder, rape and torture were unquestionably the Serbs. The Americans are- rightly- upset that their forces may have illegally killed a few innocent people in Iraq. The Serbs murdered thousands in Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo. They were the most vicious, bloody and vindictive force Europe had seen on its soil since the destruction of Nazi Germany.

And you know what? The Serbs were cowards to the bone. It was fascinating to watch just how quickly the Serb and Bosnian Serb forces crumpled in the face of a properly equipped adversary-- when they were using the weapons of the former Yugoslav Army to murder unarmed civilians they were tough enough.

I'm sorry. You have Serb sympathies? Then you're either terminally stupid or you're a complete arse. No one who openly condones the murder of tens of thousands of innocent civilians can be anything else, and having sympathy for the Serbs places you firmly in that category.

So which are you?

[Quinn]

Bosnia case: Of course the "genocide" ended, since you killed the one part that was fighting. Btw, that is a genocide too, since u used chemical weapons.


.

The only chemicals here are those swimming round your lame brain. NATO forces did not use chemical weapons in Bosnia. Are you perhaps one of those benighted individuals who believe the Serbs got a raw deal in Bosnia?

My brain is in a perfect condition and has nothing to do with chemicals.
So, keep your idiotic comments for your friends.

You have your opinion, and i have mine.

Is it so difficult for you not being a moron?

Friedrich, with all do respect, while you are entitled to your opinion, the fact is that it need not merit consideration as being valid. For example, there are still people who believe that the Earth is flat (Flat Earth Society, etc.) – despite the fact that there exists conclusive and overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. Like you, they, too, are entitled to have an opinion, but the lack of supporting evidence reduces said opinion to little more than a punch line at the party.

To the best of my knowledge, there doesn't exist one iota of credible evidence indicating that NATO ever used chemical weapons during its actions against an indisputably murderous Serb war machine. If you believe such an event took place, provide support. What type of Chemical weapon was deployed? How was it deployed?

-Quinn

It is very interesting that plenty of people torn their clothes about NATO forces not using chemicals .

Do i have the honor to speak to certified NATO experts or participants ?

Btw, your example about flatness of the earth and opinion carriers is too dumb , if you dont mind my saying. You can do so much better if you try

You (plural) made your opinion clear. NATO and USA are the international peacemakers, and thank god there is America to save the world, and how nice are the soldiers who went to plenty of countries and didnt use force and didnt kill people and didnt use chemical or biological weapons, and the bombs they dropped left nothing but fresh air behind instead of chemical left outs. (Do i have to specify in detail what i mean by saying chemicals?)

And now,btw, Bosnia and Iraq are magnificent places to live...

You are free to believe whatever you want. I also believe that it is very hard for you to say the oposite than what you allready said.

But you will never make me believe that war is the solution for international liberty.It is completely impossible. Especially from a country that has GWB as a president.

Its like fucking for virginity, as many ppl said.

So.... what you're really saying is that you can't provide one shred of credible evidence to support your claim that NATO used chemical weapons against the Serbs. That's what I thought......

-Quinn

P.S. And for what it's worth, since you mentioned it, I am against the war in Iraq. NATO actions against the Serbs, however, were another matter entirely. Unlike your allegation that NATO used chemical weapons in Bosnia, the evidence regarding Serbian actions in the Balkans is overwhelming and unambiguous (mass graves, Operation Horseshoe, etc.).

[MacShreach]

<snip>

Do i have the honor to speak to certified NATO experts or participants ?

<snip>

In the seige of Sarajevo, Serb murderers killed 12,000 civilians and maimed 50,000. In one day alone they fired over 3,500 HE shells into the city, which was entirely civilian. In one attack they mortared a queue of people waiting in line, killing 68 and wounding 200. Among the dead and wounded are counted those shot by Serb snipers as they tried to rescue those injured by the Serbian mortar. In Srebrenica, Serb forces executed 8,000 civilian boys and men. Why? Because they were muslims.

I am a European. I have no words to describe the utter evil of the Serbs. They are a shameful stain on European history. You sympathise with them, do you? Then fuck you, you cunt.

[scroller]

Nobody anywhere thinks that NATO used chemical weapons in Bosnia.

[MacShreach]

Nobody anywhere thinks that NATO used chemical weapons in Bosnia.

Except the resident Serb sympathiser, apparently.

[Quinn]

Nobody anywhere thinks that NATO used chemical weapons in Bosnia.

Actually, this is a fairly common belief in the Eastern Orthodox world where sympathy for the Serbs runs higher than common sense and decency would dictate.

-Quinn

[latrix67]

Nobody anywhere thinks that NATO used chemical weapons in Bosnia.

Except the resident Serb sympathiser, apparently.

Hang on here! We DID use chemical weapons in Bosnia........I mean,Have you ever tried living of Army Ration Packs & Range Stew for a month & shareing a room with other soldiers?? :twisted:

[Phat]

I don't get it, I understand if a lot of you don't like bush or his platforms, but the soldiers are just doing their jobs.
If there weren't any soldiers, we'd all be fucked.

[scroller]

On that score, we'd be a heck of a lot better off right now if there weren't any soldiers. Nobody carrying out illegal war because "it's orders" = no illegal war by U.S.

[Phat]

On that score, we'd be a heck of a lot better off right now if there weren't any soldiers. Nobody carrying out illegal war because "it's orders" = no illegal war by U.S.

ah, world peace, wouldn't it be nice. unfortunately that's wishful thinking.

[latrix67]

On that score, we'd be a heck of a lot better off right now if there weren't any soldiers. Nobody carrying out illegal war because "it's orders" = no illegal war by U.S.

So then who would defend you frm the terrorists? Some leftie tree hugging pacifists?
Osama would love that!Get a grip & stop talking shite!

[MacShreach]

On that score, we'd be a heck of a lot better off right now if there weren't any soldiers. Nobody carrying out illegal war because "it's orders" = no illegal war by U.S.

Pish. The people to blame for the war are politicians, not soldiers, and believe me, pal, when push comes to shove a soldier on your side is welcome indeed.

[MacShreach]

Nobody anywhere thinks that NATO used chemical weapons in Bosnia.

Except the resident Serb sympathiser, apparently.

Hang on here! We DID use chemical weapons in Bosnia........I mean,Have you ever tried living of Army Ration Packs & Range Stew for a month & shareing a room with other soldiers?? :twisted:

LOL.

[scroller]

ah, world peace, wouldn't it be nice. unfortunately that's wishful thinking.

That I agree with, as long as the U.S. continues on its messianic imperialist phase.

Soldiers have options. You'd rather kill some kids than go to jail as a conscientious objector? That's extremely messed up.

Who'll protect me from terrorists? Certainly not anybody currently shooting up Iraq. Living in NYC, I can pretty safely say that those guys didn't do me jack shit on 9/11, and they're not doing me jack shit now.

[ezed]

ah, world peace, wouldn't it be nice. unfortunately that's wishful thinking.

That I agree with, as long as the U.S. continues on its messianic imperialist phase.

Soldiers have options. You'd rather kill some kids than go to jail as a conscientious objector? That's extremely messed up.

Who'll protect me from terrorists? Certainly not anybody currently shooting up Iraq. Living in NYC, I can pretty safely say that those guys didn't do me jack shit on 9/11, and they're not doing me jack shit now.

You are a little slime ball puke! Who is going to defend you! Let's pull out..see what happens. No base near theirs. Let's let them focus on attacking NY again instead of refocusing their dwindling resources on attacking your fellow (soldiers) citizens in Iraq and Afganastan.

Yeah Bush and Chenny are bumbling profit mongors. But the war is over there and not here. You are an imature cunt who should get his ass out of this country after doing such a disservice to those soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack. They ain't all perfect, but they're trying. Are the soldiers getting rich? Do they have a choice? If you answer yes, you have no conception of life in the real world.

You are a fucking retard!

ezed

ps....see what I mean ecstaic

[DeathFox]

But the war is over there and not here. You are an imature cunt who should get his ass out of this country after doing such a disservice to those soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack.

Why don't you go to Iraq and kiss the Amercian soldier's ass. Fact is, you're just a nobody who think you're being patriotic just for defending the "honor" of these damn murderous bastards called American Soldiers. Fact is, you don't know anybody in Iraq and is just sitting there with your fat ass watching some CNN shit on how brave the soldiers are.


Are the soldiers getting rich?

Hell no, they are instead getting killed for their wrong doings


soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack

So they killed thousands and thousads of Iraqis and Afghans to say to the world "Don't mess around with the US"?


You are a fucking retard!

And you're a moron for having a war president that broke 700+ laws

[Phat]

But the war is over there and not here. You are an imature cunt who should get his ass out of this country after doing such a disservice to those soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack.

Why don't you go to Iraq and kiss the Amercian soldier's ass. Fact is, you're just a nobody who think you're being patriotic just for defending the "honor" of these damn murderous bastards called American Soldiers. Fact is, you don't know anybody in Iraq and is just sitting there with your fat ass watching some CNN shit on how brave the soldiers are.


Are the soldiers getting rich?

Hell no, they are instead getting killed for their wrong doings


soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack

So they killed thousands and thousads of Iraqis and Afghans to say to the world "Don't mess around with the US"?


You are a fucking retard!

And you're a moron for having a war president that broke 700+ laws

So all my family and friends in the military are "murderous bastards"? Disagreeing with the president's actions is one thing, but blaming the war on the soldiers? incredible. Honestly if you were saying this to my face I would probably be making you into an innocent civilian casualty.

[DeathFox]

^ All wars in all timespans are caused by soldiers. Thats fact and thats reality

[ezed]

But the war is over there and not here. You are an imature cunt who should get his ass out of this country after doing such a disservice to those soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack.

Why don't you go to Iraq and kiss the Amercian soldier's ass. Fact is, you're just a nobody who think you're being patriotic just for defending the "honor" of these damn murderous bastards called American Soldiers. Fact is, you don't know anybody in Iraq and is just sitting there with your fat ass watching some CNN shit on how brave the soldiers are.


Are the soldiers getting rich?

Hell no, they are instead getting killed for their wrong doings


soldiers trying to protect your worthless ass from being incinerated in another attack

So they killed thousands and thousads of Iraqis and Afghans to say to the world "Don't mess around with the US"?


You are a fucking retard!

And you're a moron for having a war president that broke 700+ laws

Blow me you asshole! If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now. Think about it! Now think if Truman was operating in today's world with the media as it is. People like you would be calling him a butcher! But the American losses from an amphibious assault on Japan would make Normandy look like a walk in the park.

I call him a hero, because he had the balls to make the call. By the way, I probably wouldn't be here because my dad was a grunt in the first amphibious wave for the invasion of Tokyo. But then came the bomb and the invasion was off. Thus, thank God, I'm here to call you a fricking slimey diseased vulva for dissing the soldiers.

I don't watch the news much ie CNN. My war was Vietnam. But I do know kids who've been to Iraq. They're kids when they go and fucking skeptical bastards like me when they come back. Somebody has to go, so you can sit back here and type shit on the internet.

You know, why am I arguing with you. QUICK! WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE BATTLE OF SAN JACINTO! Don't google it.

[Phat]

^ All wars in all timespans are caused by soldiers. Thats fact and thats reality

tell me how did the US soldiers CAUSE the war in iraq I'd love to know

[DeathFox]

^ All wars in all timespans are caused by soldiers. Thats fact and thats reality

tell me how did the US soldiers CAUSE the war in iraq I'd love to know

They set foot in Iraq. That simple, or did Iraq cause the war coz they made "weapons of mass destruction"

[DeathFox]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now. Think about it! Now think if Truman was operating in today's world with the media as it is. People like you would be calling him a butcher! But the American losses from an amphibious assault on Japan would make Normandy look like a walk in the park.

Do you know world History? Japan killed millions during their invasions of other countries so them being bombed was well justified.

------------------

And past is past, the past doesn't justify on what you Americans did to Iraq. And yes, most Americans are to blame (soldier or not) coz you elected Bush. Most American's wanted the war in Iraq to continue thats why they elected Bush, if they elected the other guy then the war would be long over yet you americans chose Bush. So that means your liable for Iraq.

And don't be surprised if there's another so-called "terror" attack in the near future so you can justify your troops invading Iran.

[scroller]

Are the soldiers getting rich? Do they have a choice? If you answer yes, you have no conception of life in the real world.

You are a fucking retard!


YES of course they have a choice you limp-dicked little shit smear.
- Go tell the CO officer you're gay.
- Go tell 'em you're a conscientious objector.
I've had friends do it and they were out in a week

Oh, no you're too much of a coward when the army psychologist comes in to cross-examine you? You're too freaking much of a pussy to spend a jail term for civil disobedience? You'd actually rather shoot up a bunch of civilians in an imperial action that's a proven lie? You've got some fucked-up principles, there.

How about YOU get the fuck out of MY country and go find someplace where nazi sympathizers, torturers, and tinpot dictators are actually appreciated, instead of fucking up the us with your right-wing facsist fear-mongering, again and again. It's bullshit and we're not buying it anymore. Just watch the next election!

[scroller]

In fact, not only am i NOT leaving the country, but i'm bringing more people in! My girlfriend from France just got her citizenship just she can vote against you religious fuckos and your bannana-republic soldier wannabes. We're not alone. Chew on that, fuckhole.

[DeathFox]

Bout that "Do they have a choice?" thing, I almost forgot. LOOK at the Iraqi soldiers, they resigned after graduation coz they found out they were being shipped to another location. So soldier's DO have a choice, you stupid american idiot.

[houstonshemalefan]

They just killed an Iraqi pregnant woman and unborn child. These sick American bastards

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed;_ylt=Atf.luG72SWtnbVfFi4dtb.s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

DeathFox, YOU make ME sick for taking the story out of context. Had the two stopped at the checkpoint as ORDERED they would still be alive. How were they to know they were women and one was pregnant??? For all they knew it could have been another Suicide BOMBER trying to blow up another checkpoint!!!

Put yourself in their shoes before you judge! If it weren't for the AMERICAN SOLDIER you and all the rest of the world would be speaking GERMAN!!!

[houstonshemalefan]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now. Think about it! Now think if Truman was operating in today's world with the media as it is. People like you would be calling him a butcher! But the American losses from an amphibious assault on Japan would make Normandy look like a walk in the park.

Do you know world History? Japan killed millions during their invasions of other countries so them being bombed was well justified.

------------------

And past is past, the past doesn't justify on what you Americans did to Iraq. And yes, most Americans are to blame (soldier or not) coz you elected Bush. Most American's wanted the war in Iraq to continue thats why they elected Bush, if they elected the other guy then the war would be long over yet you americans chose Bush. So that means your liable for Iraq.

And don't be surprised if there's another so-called "terror" attack in the near future so you can justify your troops invading Iran.

The more I read Deathfox's rubbish the easier it is to laugh at him for being such an idiot!!! LMAO!!! At first I was offended but now I realize the guy's not worth getting offended by, he's just another poster who argues illogically. Oh well!

[Quinn]

The more I read Deathfox's rubbish the easier it is to laugh at him for being such an idiot!!! LMAO!!! At first I was offended but now I realize the guy's not worth getting offended by, he's just another poster who argues illogically. Oh well!

LOL.... Bingo!!! The guy has clearly consumed way too much lead to post anything approaching a coherent thought. Still, you have to admire how he never lets little things like facts or common sense get in the way of his making a point.

-Quinn

[DeathFox]

If it weren't for americans we would be speaking german?

Are you a fucking 12 year old? Its the Russian's who saved everyone from WW2. Which reminds me, that was the American's who took the glory, just shows you how stupid and pathetic you are. Claiming something that wasn't even gained by your nation.

And what next will you say? If it weren't for the americans we would be speaking japanese?

Here's news for you, Japan surrendered not coz of the US but coz of a GERMAN, namely Einstein.

[DeathFox]

The more I read Deathfox's rubbish the easier it is to laugh at him for being such an idiot!!! LMAO!!! At first I was offended but now I realize the guy's not worth getting offended by, he's just another poster who argues illogically. Oh well!

LOL.... Bingo!!! The guy has clearly consumed way too much lead to post anything approaching a coherent thought. Still, you have to admire how he never lets little things like facts or common sense get in the way of his making a point.

-Quinn


Facts? Did you even read the article you dumb shits

Heres facts

"Shots were fired to disable the vehicle," the military said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press.

^ Disabling the vehicle is diffirent from trying to kill the ones in the vehicle. And IF their intent was to really stop the vehicle then why the hell is the driver still alive? Or do Americans do things differently by kilingl the passengers instead of the driver to stop the car?

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said.

^ Yeah, this guy is obviously telling a sick lie to discredit the Americans or should we rather believe them after

Military investigators have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by Marines, a senior defense official said last week.


Read the damn article you stupid asswipes

[BlackAdder]

Wow...the depth or your stupity is truly amazing Deathfox....The russians saved everyone???? Dude....... they could barely save themselves...They repelled the winter invasion by sacrificing HORRENDOUS casualties to the German machine.....Germany bled themselves against the Russians true, but to say the Russians played an important part in the actual push to Germany is retarded. Our ground forces were average at the time, but out air power was top notch(and still is) and THATS what turned the war around.

Also, do you really think it was all Eistein???? It was Oppenheimers show all the way you monkey...And working directly under him were Enrico Fermi, Richard Feynman, Robert R. Wilson, Victor Weisskopf, Robert Serber, Emil Konopinski, Felix Bloch, Hans Bethe, and Edward Teller.. Eistein was a consultant you tool......

[Quinn]

The more I read Deathfox's rubbish the easier it is to laugh at him for being such an idiot!!! LMAO!!! At first I was offended but now I realize the guy's not worth getting offended by, he's just another poster who argues illogically. Oh well!

LOL.... Bingo!!! The guy has clearly consumed way too much lead to post anything approaching a coherent thought. Still, you have to admire how he never lets little things like facts or common sense get in the way of his making a point.

-Quinn


Facts? Did you even read the article you dumb shits

Heres facts

"Shots were fired to disable the vehicle," the military said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press.

^ Disabling the vehicle is diffirent from trying to kill the ones in the vehicle. And IF their intent was to really stop the vehicle then why the hell is the driver still alive? Or do Americans do things differently by kilingl the passengers instead of the driver to stop the car?

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said.

^ Yeah, this guy is obviously telling a sick lie to discredit the Americans or should we rather believe them after

Military investigators have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by Marines, a senior defense official said last week.


Read the damn article you stupid asswipes

Wow, those are some really great points – if you selectively pick bits of information while ignoring other key aspects of the incident:


Read the story! "The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings."

Once again, nice job, DeceasedDog. Keep eating lead paint because it's doing a world of good for you. Don't worry about those critical analysis skills; just let your own bias tell whatever story you want to believe.

-Quinn

[DeathFox]

to say the Russians played an important part in the actual push to Germany is retarded.

Yeah, American could have beaten them all with one hand tied behind you're backs

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Also, do you really think it was all Eistein????

Moron, if it wasn't for him the American's wouldn't be able to make the damn bomb. Did you do a Wikipedia search on those names to make yourself seem smart? Dude, anyone of those people could be removed from the porject and the bomb could still be made.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yet this doesn't surprise me, coz you Americans always jump into conclusions without knowing the facts. One example is this,

http://www.philippinenews.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=03a01acd8d888dbc376cf 4ce6f849f3a

To save you the time, here :

"One unfortunate American citizen, who looked like he was on holiday in the Philippines, even landed on the front page of one newspaper engaging a militant women’s group in a debate.

With no idea about the facts of the case, the American already cleared his countrymen and accused the victim of being a prostitute. The Ugly American is alive and well, it seems. (One national newspaper actually used the expletive ‘F*ck you’ addressed to the American visitor.) "

---
That just proves most Americans are sanctimonious sons of bitches who doesn't even know what their talking about.

[DeathFox]

Read the story! "The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings."


Once again, nice job, DeceasedDog. Keep eating lead paint because it's doing a world of good for you. Don't worry about those critical analysis skills; just let your own bias tell whatever story you want to believe.

We should really belive all that they say, after all. The victim is a nobody compared to the all mighty US Forces Am I right? Or how the massacre at Haditha was not american soldier's fault. The next thing that might come out of your stupid brain is how Im posting here is because the American's invented the internet

[Quinn]

Read the story! "The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings."


Once again, nice job, DeceasedDog. Keep eating lead paint because it's doing a world of good for you. Don't worry about those critical analysis skills; just let your own bias tell whatever story you want to believe.

We should really belive all that they say, after all. The victim is a nobody compared to the all mighty US Forces Am I right? Or how the massacre at Haditha was not american soldier's fault. The next thing that might come out of your stupid brain is how Im posting here is because the American's invented the internet

So much for you disproving my point about how you selectively pick bits of information to suit your own biased, anti-American views. You’re obviously a genius with reasoning powers that are far superior to the legions of posters who have attacked your views as being idiotic.

You know what the funny part is. If you want to complain about America and the behavior of Americans, I'll probably agree with you on many points, but let's put some things into perspective first:

1. You are a 19-year old kid from the Philippines who is clearly lacking in both education and experience.
2. Before your intellectually bereft mind inspires you to undertake more attacks against other nations and other cultures, you should first keep in mind that you come from a country whose only notable contribution to civilization is its escorts. By any measure of viability (economic, academic, technological, military capability, etc.) the Philippines is a failed state that can barely maintain its own territorial integrity – only being able to do so thanks to aid from countries like the US.

Post whatever you want, junior. If I need a good laugh, I’ll respond to it later today when I get back to NYC. Until then, enjoy being special:

[houstonshemalefan]

Read the story! "The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings."


Once again, nice job, DeceasedDog. Keep eating lead paint because it's doing a world of good for you. Don't worry about those critical analysis skills; just let your own bias tell whatever story you want to believe.

We should really belive all that they say, after all. The victim is a nobody compared to the all mighty US Forces Am I right? Or how the massacre at Haditha was not american soldier's fault. The next thing that might come out of your stupid brain is how Im posting here is because the American's invented the internet

So much for you disproving my point about how you selectively pick bits of information to suit your own biased, anti-American views. You’re obviously a genius with reasoning powers that are far superior to the legions of posters who have attacked your views as being idiotic.

You know what the funny part is. If you want to complain about America and the behavior of Americans, I'll probably agree with you on many points, but let's put some things into perspective first:

1. You are a 19-year old kid from the Philippines who is clearly lacking in both education and experience.
2. Before your intellectually bereft mind inspires you to undertake more attacks against other nations and other cultures, you should first keep in mind that you come from a country whose only notable contribution to civilization is its escorts. By any measure of viability (economic, academic, technological, military capability, etc.) the Philippines is a failed state that can barely maintain its own territorial integrity – only being able to do so thanks to aid from countries like the US.

Post whatever you want, junior. If I need a good laugh, I’ll respond to it later today when I get back to NYC. Until then, enjoy being special:

LMAO!!!

http://homepages.bw.edu/~gwalton/funnies/files/owned.jpg

very fitting "owned" photo of a former American Soldier. Yep, Deathboy, you got OWNED!

[DamionXXX]

Я Люблю Вас Ulyana, я Люблю только Вас ... теперь и для остальной части моей жизни.

[chefmike]

1. You are a 19-year old kid from the Philippines who is clearly lacking in both education and experience.
2. Before your intellectually bereft mind inspires you to undertake more attacks against other nations and other cultures, you should first keep in mind that you come from a country whose only notable contribution to civilization is its escorts. By any measure of viability (economic, academic, technological, military capability, etc.) the Philippines is a failed state that can barely maintain its own territorial integrity – only being able to do so thanks to aid from countries like the US.



No shit, next he's gonna tell us that this was a wise decision-

Despite Filipinos' serious concern for maintaining national identity and avoiding any appearance of foreign subjugation, in 1992 congruent interests and a long history of friendly relations made it seem likely that the United States would remain the Philippines' closest ally--even after the long, difficult, and ultimately unsuccessful negotiations to extend the Military Bases Agreement. The original Military Bases Agreement of 1947, amended in 1959 and again in 1979, was scheduled to expire in 1991 unless an extension was negotiated. Negotiations for continued United States use of the two major bases in the Philippines--Clark Air Base in Pampanga Province and Subic Bay Naval Base in Zambales Province--had begun in 1990. The tenor of the negotiations changed significantly, however, in 1991, when the end of the Cold War made the bases less important and the eruption of the Mount Pinatubo volcano rendered Clark Air Base unusable. By the end of August 1991, United States and Philippine negotiators had agreed to extend the United States lease of Subic Bay Naval Base for another ten years in return for US$360 million in direct compensation for the first year and US$203 million for the remaining nine years of the lease. But in September 1991, the Philippine Senate rejected the agreement. As a result, the United States was expected to vacate Subic Bay Naval Base, its only remaining base in the Philippines, by the end of 1992.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-10370.html

[chefmike]

Here's an account of Subic Bay as it was back in the day, as described by a Navy wife...her description of "Shit River" is dead on...you had to smell it to believe it...
DeathFox, I might have been shipmates with your dad, or maybe... :shock:

http://www.fatladysings.us/the_fat_lady_sings/2005/11/subic_bay.html

[latrix67]

yeah ummm 19 years old, I cant believe I even bothered to ever respond to any of this dipshits posts...

lets see when I was getting shot at by an Iraqi for the first time you were 5 years old... we were both shitting our pants so we have that in common, just for different reasons...

I didnt vote for either bush, I never asked to go to Iraq, but I had a wife to support and I only joined the army because the recession hit florida hard in 1990 and I couldnt keep a job as an electrician, and I also decided to join for college money...

maybe come back to HA when you grow a fully functional adult brain... 19 year old kids dont have enough wisdom about life in general to start political threads. Try getting shot at for 6 months straight and see how much you hate the guys covering your ass...

but hey its cool the way you bait people with your BS posts so you can take out your frustrations on them, I like that alot... I mean it almost covers up your blatant homosexuality, or your inferiority complex because of your infintile penis...
Nicely put!
Considering WE did'nt get a choice wether or not to go to Irag,Afghanistan, or anywhere else to fight for what we believe in,freedom of expresion (and in DeathFox's case,to spout utter shite!!) we in the real world can put up with it.
And,as someone earlier on in the post said (ironically,word or word what a cartain J.M said on 'reelskills' post about going to Iraq)If in the western military,you go to the OC & announce you like trannies, you're gay (even if you're not) or even like to fuck sheep,you WONT get discharged immediatly! You'll get a stay in jail,court martialled & then spend time in a military jail (thankfully,somewhere I've never been apart from prisoner escort that is!) & then have a dishonourable conduct on you're record.Try explaining that to a prospective employer!
We as serving or ex-serving military can hold our heads high with the knowledge that we've done our bit.(Even if it's so dick's like him can spout shite!)
L67

[latrix67]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

My late Father was a RAF Lancaster Bomber pilot in WWII & was involved in the Dresden raid as well as other 'carpet bombing' sorties.In hindsight ,he said it should never have happened but,as we were at war at the time,it was a legitimate target,as was Coventry,London & other British cities.Do I support what happened to Dresden. That was a long time ago in a different war but,if I was in my Fathers position then,yes i would.Hindsight's a fucking brilliant thing!BUT it does'nt exist in warfare!!!

[MacShreach]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

They were, but both were heavily involved in war production. Whether or not that justifies the action I don't know. What I believe is that most people, having seen the horror of Guam, and being told there was a way to end the war quickly and cleanly, would have done as Truman did and ordered the A-bomb raid. He didn't know about radiation and fall-out, and remember shocking toll on both sides in Guam and those awful pictures of Japanese women committing suicide rather than surrender to the American forces (who would unquestionably have treated them decently.) It was probably an easy call for Truman to make in the light of the facts he had before him.

Dresden-- I would need to go and read up on this, and it's late so I'm not going to, but I think I'm right in saying that there had been an agreement of sorts between Germany and Britain that cities of great cultural importance but no strategic importance would be left alone. The Germans bombed Bath, was it? Can't remember right now. Anyway they hit one of the English culture cities hard and the upshot was Churchill, fuming, said "Right-o, cunt-o," and Dresden caught it. Tit for tat. It was war.

[houstonshemalefan]

The real reason I hate American Soldiers is because of what happened to my mother and the effects afterwards. She was/is a popular prostitue here (as it's one of our greatest business practices over here) and about 20 years ago an American Soldier paid her a visit. Since she's the big-time whore that she is, she let the soldier fuck her bareback, cum inside her, and then decided to leave her without PAYING!!! I was born 7 months later premature (due to her drug and sexual habits), thus my lack of intelligence and extremely small penis development over the years. The soldier never came back for my whore of a mother and I was left fatherless to endure the sexual and physical abuses of my mother towards me, making me this countries most popular small dicked fag-boy. THIS is why I hate American Soldiers, they did this to my mother and me and why I started this thread. I would like to appologize to all of the people I have offended and I will go back to the brothel where I sell myself to other men. It's a rough life, but it pays the bills. Sorry for all the problems.

WOW!

[ezed]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

Arguing this could go on and on. How they made their decisions where to bomb, I could cares less, ya can't change history. But the bombs ended the war and saved countless American Soldiers lives. The causuality count would far exceed Normandy. The Japanese would know be defending their home land not lands they had recently acquired.

I can't argue Dresdan, I have to research history, and I've destroyed too many brain cell to do it from memory. Japan came to mind cause I talk to my Dad in the nursing home, and recently he was tell me about amphibious training (in of all places the Phillipines) and how he was on his way to Japan when the bombings occured.

[ezed]

which is why war is so stupid...

not personally directed at anyone in particular, but for anyone on here whom believes its "okay" for innocent civilians and children to be murdered in the name of "winning a war", I hope its you and your family that bites it if we have to lose some innocents...

You're 100% right, but how do you stop war. Humans have been doing it since the beginning of time. Can you stop it, rally not ideally. I don't think you can. You can't stop the flaming wars that go on this site.

Someone get's hit, they retaliate. If they turn the other cheek, they get hit again.

It's ridicuolous, but if you can figure it out you'll be the second coming of the messiah, or the the first according to the Jewish faith. Or a party crasher according to the Muslim religion.

(See, we as humans, can't resist throwing that barb in at the end). :?:

[Jamie Michelle]

All soldiers go to Hell, unless they repent before they die.

Matthew 5:1-12: And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." [NKJV, as below.]

Matthew 5:38-41: [Jesus Christ:] "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away."

Luke 6:27-38: [Jesus Christ:] "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

"But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

[chefmike]

Who left the door to the psycho ward open? It looks like he's escaped again....break out the butterfly nets...

[Jamie Michelle]

Who left the door to the psycho ward open? It looks like he's escaped again....break out the butterfly nets...

Obviously what I said disturbs you a great deal. Instead of attacking the messenger via the logical fallacy of ad hominem attack, you ought to analyze why it is that you're worried and troubled about this message.

[chefmike]

Who left the door to the psycho ward open? It looks like he's escaped again....break out the butterfly nets...

Obviously what I said disturbs you a great deal. Instead of attacking the messenger via the logical fallacy of ad hominem attack, you ought to analyze why it is that you're worried and troubled about this message.

Don't flatter yourself, James. Those of us who are familiar with you regard you as occassionly amusing, like the nut on the corner yelling "Jesus is coming, and boy is he pissed"...but more often than not, you are just irritating and tiresome. I thought that you were banned, but I guess that you were just confined. How long will it be before you start posting your paranoid schizophrenic conspiracy theories again? Not long, I suspect...

[Jamie Michelle]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

Arguing this could go on and on. How they made their decisions where to bomb, I could cares less, ya can't change history. But the bombs ended the war and saved countless American Soldiers lives. The causuality count would far exceed Normandy. The Japanese would know be defending their home land not lands they had recently acquired.

I can't argue Dresdan, I have to research history, and I've destroyed too many brain cell to do it from memory. Japan came to mind cause I talk to my Dad in the nursing home, and recently he was tell me about amphibious training (in of all places the Phillipines) and how he was on his way to Japan when the bombings occured.

Sorry to but in like this guys, but the bombs that hit Japan were actually off-target, in one case over a mile off target! Also it was estimated that if US troops had invaded Japan (like in Normandy), the US death count would have been at least 1 MILLION dead Americans (hence dropping the bomb).

All the U.S. government had to do if it was interested in saving U.S. soldiers' lives is call an end to the war. The government of Japan was begging to surrender anyway, but the U.S. government wouldn't accept its surrender.

Concerning the Pearl Harbor attack:

As just another among many, many examples of the U.S. government's use of staged Hegelian dialectical PsyOps attacks, President Franklin D. Roosevelt knew in advance and intentionally allowed (and provoked) the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. See, for example:

"The McCollum Memo: The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum

And that's just one among many, many smoking guns proving that the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government. For many more such smoking-gun, Freedom of Information Act-released U.S. government documents proving that the U.S. government knew exactly when Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor, as well as their efforts to provoke exactly this response, see the book Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett. For more on just some of that, see:

"Do Freedom of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?" an interview with Robert B. Stinnett by Douglas Cirignano, The Independent Institute, March 11, 2002:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/020311Cirignano.html

And for a list of dozens of hardcore smoking guns proving the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government, see:

"Pearl Harbor: Mother of All Conspiracies" by Mark Emerson Willey:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

[Jamie Michelle]

Who left the door to the psycho ward open? It looks like he's escaped again....break out the butterfly nets...

Obviously what I said disturbs you a great deal. Instead of attacking the messenger via the logical fallacy of ad hominem attack, you ought to analyze why it is that you're worried and troubled about this message.

Don't flatter yourself, James. Those of us who are familiar with you regard you as occassionly amusing, like the nut on the corner yelling "Jesus is coming, and boy is he pissed"...but more often than not, you are just irritating and tiresome. I thought that you were banned, but I guess that you were just confined. How long will it be before you start posting your paranoid schizophrenic conspiracy theories again? Not long, I suspect...

Again, as I said before, obviously what I said disturbs you a great deal. Instead of attacking the messenger via the logical fallacy of ad hominem attack, you ought to analyze why it is that you're worried and troubled about this message.

So far as conspiracies go, they are ubiquitous. Everyone is in agreement that the 9/11 attacks were the result of a conspiracy. But those who are genuinely knowledgeable and care about the truth reject fallacious conspiracy theories, such as the U.S. government's lying, self-serving, a-historical, a-factual, and provably false official fairy tale conspiracy theory concerning the 9/11 attacks.

More than four times the amount of non-combatants have been systematically murdered for purely ideological reasons by their own governments within the past century than were killed in that same time-span from wars. From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 of its own Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians. Communist governments have murdered over 110 million of their own subjects since 1917. And Germany murdered some 16 million of it own subjects in the past century. (The preceding figures are from Prof. Rudolph Joseph Rummel's website at http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/ .)

All totaled, neither the private-sector crime which government is largely responsible for promoting and causing or even the wars committed by governments upon the subjects of other governments come anywhere close to the crimes government is directly responsible for committing against its own citizens--certainly not in amount of numbers. Without a doubt, the most dangerous presence to ever exist throughout history has always been the people's very own government.

Needless to say, all of these government mass-slaughters were conspiracies--massive conspiracies, at that.

[GroobySteven]

As Mds was saying, the death count would have been worse not just with US soldiers but the additional Japanese military and civilian casualties.

Dresden was a different matter. Almost a matter of spite or revenge, or telling the German's not to fuck up again or maybe just a public relations excercise in the UK in the case or "that showed 'em". The city was mainly civilians, there were no major military or industrial targets and the war was practically over.
seanchai

[latrix67]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

Arguing this could go on and on. How they made their decisions where to bomb, I could cares less, ya can't change history. But the bombs ended the war and saved countless American Soldiers lives. The causuality count would far exceed Normandy. The Japanese would know be defending their home land not lands they had recently acquired.

I can't argue Dresdan, I have to research history, and I've destroyed too many brain cell to do it from memory. Japan came to mind cause I talk to my Dad in the nursing home, and recently he was tell me about amphibious training (in of all places the Phillipines) and how he was on his way to Japan when the bombings occured.

Sorry to but in like this guys, but the bombs that hit Japan were actually off-target, in one case over a mile off target! Also it was estimated that if US troops had invaded Japan (like in Normandy), the US death count would have been at least 1 MILLION dead Americans (hence dropping the bomb).

All the U.S. government had to do if it was interested in saving U.S. soldiers' lives is call an end to the war. The government of Japan was begging to surrender anyway, but the U.S. government wouldn't accept its surrender.

Concerning the Pearl Harbor attack:

As just another among many, many examples of the U.S. government's use of staged Hegelian dialectical PsyOps attacks, President Franklin D. Roosevelt knew in advance and intentionally allowed (and provoked) the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. See, for example:

"The McCollum Memo: The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum

And that's just one among many, many smoking guns proving that the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government. For many more such smoking-gun, Freedom of Information Act-released U.S. government documents proving that the U.S. government knew exactly when Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor, as well as their efforts to provoke exactly this response, see the book Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett. For more on just some of that, see:

"Do Freedom of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?" an interview with Robert B. Stinnett by Douglas Cirignano, The Independent Institute, March 11, 2002:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/020311Cirignano.html

And for a list of dozens of hardcore smoking guns proving the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government, see:

"Pearl Harbor: Mother of All Conspiracies" by Mark Emerson Willey:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Jamie,Do us all a favour & shove your left wing,x-files fictionalised BULLSHIT up your well fucked up arse!! NO ONE here can be bothered to look up the links or read your post,we just scroll past it for the simple reason it,you & cows have one thingin common,it's BULLSHIT! So toddle off to your padded cell,wrap yourself in your tin foil blanket & have a wank!It'll give you some relief!Some of us live in the real world,not your mind.

[Jamie Michelle]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

Arguing this could go on and on. How they made their decisions where to bomb, I could cares less, ya can't change history. But the bombs ended the war and saved countless American Soldiers lives. The causuality count would far exceed Normandy. The Japanese would know be defending their home land not lands they had recently acquired.

I can't argue Dresdan, I have to research history, and I've destroyed too many brain cell to do it from memory. Japan came to mind cause I talk to my Dad in the nursing home, and recently he was tell me about amphibious training (in of all places the Phillipines) and how he was on his way to Japan when the bombings occured.

Sorry to but in like this guys, but the bombs that hit Japan were actually off-target, in one case over a mile off target! Also it was estimated that if US troops had invaded Japan (like in Normandy), the US death count would have been at least 1 MILLION dead Americans (hence dropping the bomb).

All the U.S. government had to do if it was interested in saving U.S. soldiers' lives is call an end to the war. The government of Japan was begging to surrender anyway, but the U.S. government wouldn't accept its surrender.

Concerning the Pearl Harbor attack:

As just another among many, many examples of the U.S. government's use of staged Hegelian dialectical PsyOps attacks, President Franklin D. Roosevelt knew in advance and intentionally allowed (and provoked) the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. See, for example:

"The McCollum Memo: The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum

And that's just one among many, many smoking guns proving that the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government. For many more such smoking-gun, Freedom of Information Act-released U.S. government documents proving that the U.S. government knew exactly when Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor, as well as their efforts to provoke exactly this response, see the book Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett. For more on just some of that, see:

"Do Freedom of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?" an interview with Robert B. Stinnett by Douglas Cirignano, The Independent Institute, March 11, 2002:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/020311Cirignano.html

And for a list of dozens of hardcore smoking guns proving the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government, see:

"Pearl Harbor: Mother of All Conspiracies" by Mark Emerson Willey:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Jamie,Do us all a favour & shove your left wing,x-files fictionalised BULLSHIT up your well fucked up arse!! NO ONE here can be bothered to look up the links or read your post,we just scroll past it for the simple reason it,you & cows have one thingin common,it's BULLSHIT! So toddle off to your padded cell,wrap yourself in your tin foil blanket & have a wank!It'll give you some relief!Some of us live in the real world,not your mind.

The terms "left" and "right" in the political sense go back to 1789 France. When the French Estates-General met on May 6, 1789, the Third Estate commoners, who wanted less taxes and government control (i.e., "laissez-faire"), were seated on the left side of King Louis XVI, and the Second Estate nobles and First Estate clergy, who were the conservatives and wanted to maintain the government's power, sat on his right. (Prior to the May 1789 convention of the French Estates-General [the first meeting of which was on May 5, 1789], the last time the Estates-General had met was in 1614.)

Also, "liberal" originally meant what we would call today (at least in the U.S. and Canada) "libertarian," i.e., laissez-faire free market, less taxes, less regulation, and gun ownership by the common people. Thus, in the original sense of the words, someone who wanted no taxes, all drugs to be legal, a free market, and armament of the common people would be a left-wing liberal.

The term "liberal" as it is commonly used today is purely and simply a misnomer meaning the opposite of what it originally meant, as those commonly called "liberals" today are about giving government more power, not in stripping government of power. Those commonly called "liberals" today are in fact *right-wing conservatives* in the original sense of that political term. So also, socialism and communism are exceedingly *right-wing* and *conservative* political philosophies, as they put all power into the hands of government, rather than strip government of power.

[latrix67]

If Truman hadn't droped two bombs on Japan, how many of us on this board, would not be here now.


I'm not defending Japan's actions during that time period, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly civilian towns...does this mean you also support what happened in Dresden? just curious...

Arguing this could go on and on. How they made their decisions where to bomb, I could cares less, ya can't change history. But the bombs ended the war and saved countless American Soldiers lives. The causuality count would far exceed Normandy. The Japanese would know be defending their home land not lands they had recently acquired.

I can't argue Dresdan, I have to research history, and I've destroyed too many brain cell to do it from memory. Japan came to mind cause I talk to my Dad in the nursing home, and recently he was tell me about amphibious training (in of all places the Phillipines) and how he was on his way to Japan when the bombings occured.

Sorry to but in like this guys, but the bombs that hit Japan were actually off-target, in one case over a mile off target! Also it was estimated that if US troops had invaded Japan (like in Normandy), the US death count would have been at least 1 MILLION dead Americans (hence dropping the bomb).

All the U.S. government had to do if it was interested in saving U.S. soldiers' lives is call an end to the war. The government of Japan was begging to surrender anyway, but the U.S. government wouldn't accept its surrender.

Concerning the Pearl Harbor attack:

As just another among many, many examples of the U.S. government's use of staged Hegelian dialectical PsyOps attacks, President Franklin D. Roosevelt knew in advance and intentionally allowed (and provoked) the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. See, for example:

"The McCollum Memo: The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum

And that's just one among many, many smoking guns proving that the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government. For many more such smoking-gun, Freedom of Information Act-released U.S. government documents proving that the U.S. government knew exactly when Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor, as well as their efforts to provoke exactly this response, see the book Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett. For more on just some of that, see:

"Do Freedom of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?" an interview with Robert B. Stinnett by Douglas Cirignano, The Independent Institute, March 11, 2002:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/020311Cirignano.html

And for a list of dozens of hardcore smoking guns proving the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government, see:

"Pearl Harbor: Mother of All Conspiracies" by Mark Emerson Willey:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Jamie,Do us all a favour & shove your left wing,x-files fictionalised BULLSHIT up your well fucked up arse!! NO ONE here can be bothered to look up the links or read your post,we just scroll past it for the simple reason it,you & cows have one thingin common,it's BULLSHIT! So toddle off to your padded cell,wrap yourself in your tin foil blanket & have a wank!It'll give you some relief!Some of us live in the real world,not your mind.

The terms "left" and "right" in the political sense go back to 1789 France. When the French Estates-General met on May 6, 1789, the Third Estate commoners, who wanted less taxes and government control (i.e., "laissez-faire"), were seated on the left side of King Louis XVI, and the Second Estate nobles and First Estate clergy, who were the conservatives and wanted to maintain the government's power, sat on his right. (Prior to the May 1789 convention of the French Estates-General [the first meeting of which was on May 5, 1789], the last time the Estates-General had met was in 1614.)

Also, "liberal" originally meant what we would call today (at least in the U.S. and Canada) "libertarian," i.e., laissez-faire free market, less taxes, less regulation, and gun ownership by the common people. Thus, in the original sense of the words, someone who wanted no taxes, all drugs to be legal, a free market, and armament of the common people would be a left-wing liberal.

The term "liberal" as it is commonly used today is purely and simply a misnomer meaning the opposite of what it originally meant, as those commonly called "liberals" today are about giving government more power, not in stripping government of power. Those commonly called "liberals" today are in fact *right-wing conservatives* in the original sense of that political term. So also, socialism and communism are exceedingly *right-wing* and *conservative* political philosophies, as they put all power into the hands of government, rather than strip government of power.

Sorry,Did you say something because if you did,no one cares.

[scroller]

U.S. soldiers, if you have any doubt, here's the game plan for how to stand up for what's right. It's not easy, but if you have guts it can done:

---------------------------------------------------
TACOMA, Washington (Reuters) - A U.S. Army officer said on Wednesday that fighting in the war in Iraq would make him "party to war crimes" and he would not go.

...Watada said his moral and legal obligations were to the U.S. Constitution "not those who would issue unlawful orders."
---------------------------------------------------

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060607/us_nm/iraq_usa_officer_dc

[ezed]

Guys! Girls! It's all history! What can you posters on this board do about what happens tonight, tomorrow, next month? Fucking nothing, except type about it.

"WELL I'M GOING TO FLY A PLANE INTO A BUILDING! TAKE OVER TORONTO AND BEHEAD A PRIME MINISTER!"

So if this is your idea of a response, that's all your doing is dooming a bunch of young boys and girls (soldiers) who were happy playing baseball or ice hockey to growing up ten years before their time and learning about things they otherwise would't know. And why....because of your preceived ideas about what a country's ideology is based on what you see in the press and the attitude of 1 out of a hundred individuals from that country who happen to visit your country.

Cut the shit. I could be spending my time pleasuring myself looking at the beautiful pictures that grace this site. But as human nature would have it I got to know what's being said. Human nature! AND THEN TO TOP IT OFF, I ARGUE! IT'S A FUCKING ADDICTION! Like smoking and drinking and whoring, which I also do. Retaliating is also a human addiction. You think if you hit someone so hard they won't retaliate. But they will whether it's them, their children, their grandchildren,. And wars happen.

Jamie micheal, please write something usefull. You're a research machine. But no one reads your stuff. Use some pics or attractive fonts to keep the readers interest. Here's an assignment, instead of critizing everything and quoting scribblings on the bathroom stall wall. Use your research talents to tell everyone..."hey guys, this is how we get humans to behave civilally to each other and live in peace". Make it short and sweet.

We all love to kick each other in the nuts and love to justify it with history or what someone wrote. But how do we stop that urge.

[GroobySteven]

Dresden was a different matter. Almost a matter of spite or revenge, or telling the German's not to fuck up again or maybe just a public relations excercise in the UK in the case or "that showed 'em". The city was mainly civilians, there were no major military or industrial targets and the war was practically over.
seanchai

yeah, Dresden was a terrorist attack, plain and simple...and to this day, Britain and the U.S. refuse to acknowledge it was unnecessary...


Terrorist attack? It was war. It was unnecessary, it wasn't nice but it wasn't terrorism.
seanchai

[MacShreach]

All the U.S. government had to do if it was interested in saving U.S. soldiers' lives is call an end to the war. The government of Japan was begging to surrender anyway, but the U.S. government wouldn't accept its surrender.



Well, troll, I see you like to deal in half-truths, as well as having standards of evidence that would make a N*tion*l Inqu*rer hack queasy. The Japanese High Command were keen to surrender but ONLY ON THEIR TERMS. The terms they sought would have basically meant that the Japanese military would not have been seen to have been defeated. The Americans and their allies, rightly, insisted on absolute, unconditional surrender.

Why was this important? Because the Germans had been allowed to call a defeat an "Armistice" after WW1, the German people were led to believe that Germany had not surrendered, and this led directly to the rise of Adolf Hitler and to the outbreak of WW2, which was a far more costly war in terms of lives lost.

The Allies knew what the Japanese High Command wanted to do: pretend there had been no defeat, carry on as usual, re-arm, re-group and re-establish their power. The Americans, being aware of history and learning from it, something that is clearly beyond your feeble grasp, refused to play this charade.

The US would have accepted the Japanese' UNCONDITIONAL surrender at any time. The reason the war was protracted and the reason the A-bombs were dropped was because the Japanese simply refused to do this until they were met with a force they could not possibly hold out against. The A-bombs were that force.

[cockcraver]

American government IS corrupt FACT. I have sympathy for American soldiers though because the majority do not believe in the war and are only doing their jobs. Obviously like all armies their are a minority of idiots who kill innocent people as they are racist, sectarian wankers. But the war is about oil and Bush (who i used to respect) has made lie after lie about his reasons for invasion and thats an opinion of the majority of sensible Americans. He is a subtle Hitler and i dont know whether its because hes evil or stupid...probably the latter. However the fact is that this war has killed thousands and thousands of people and the situation in the middle east has only got worse! Al-Qaida have populated enormasely and hate for the Americans and Brits has only multiplied. Put urself in the position of middle east citizens. If their army was in America bombing innocent people killing children and women with an elligitament reason like 'we thought u had neclear weapons'. America are never going to win the war and its not only iraqis/afgans who are dying it is American troops. Think of the amount of familes have to live the rest of their lives knowing that their sons/daughters died in a war that is a lie. Its a fucking joke! Fair enough, 9/11 was a tragidy and my heart goes out to the families/widows/orphans etc caused by the events. But look at the death toll from that then look at the death toll from the BUSH WAR. Hes as bad as Bin Laden and I can understand why muslims HATE him just as i can understand why americans hate bin laden. anyways we are all here for a reason and i believe we are all equal and i dont know why people are racist/sectarian etc. just put the past behind us and live in peace

[CORVETTEDUDE]

Those of you that have not served in the military, in a combat situation, or doing so noe...need to shut the fuck up!!!

[trish]

Those of you that have not served in the military, in a combat situation, or doing so noe...need to shut the fuck up!!!


Oh, that's as American as Mom and apple pie!
What are we fighting for again? What was it we're spreading across the middle east? Freedom? Nah, that wasn't it. Democracy? Nah. Death, chaos, destruction, hatred for the west? Mission accomplished.

Look, I adore our fighting men and women. I think they're being played for suckers. Bush doesn't give a flying fuck how many more get killed as long as he's not the one who calls them home. Well BUSH ALREADY LOST THE WAR and every American life lost there is a martyr to Bush's hubris and vanity.

Everyone whose too cowardly to hear needs to open up their ears listen. The American people want their sons and daughters out of Iraq.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

Those of you that have not served in the military, in a combat situation, or doing so noe...need to shut the fuck up!!!


Oh, that's as American as Mom and apple pie!
What are we fighting for again? What was it we're spreading across the middle east? Freedom? Nah, that wasn't it. Democracy? Nah. Death, chaos, destruction, hatred for the west? Mission accomplished.

Look, I adore our fighting men and women. I think they're being played for suckers. Bush doesn't give a flying fuck how many more get killed as long as he's not the one who calls them home. Well BUSH ALREADY LOST THE WAR and every American life lost there is a martyr to Bush's hubris and vanity.

Everyone whose too cowardly to hear needs to open up their ears listen. The American people want their sons and daughters out of Iraq.

Then bitch about the countries leaders, not about where our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen are in the world. To them, that's their job, they believe in doing it to the best of their ability.

[cockcraver]

i agree with u totally trish! corvettedude dont know what ur argument is man because shes backing the troops and criticising Bush

[SmashysmashY]

I think that if you go to iraq to help kill those people and suck up depleted uranium while you're doing it not only do you have no moral compass but you are shit stupid to boot. You don't deserve people's respect just because you're in the military.

[stimpy]

Prayers for all of our Men and Women in uniform.

[chefmike]

Why don't you go to Iraq and join them? I'm a vet, but I suspect that you're a chickenhawk like those who started the needless bloodshed in Iraq and now have their sights set on Iran.

[Kriss]

I don't automatically believe everything this woman says but it sure as hell is interesting............

Top navy wife reveals Gay Blackmail In Top US Mil/Political Ranks Part 1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2112403836095153465

and PART 2

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5004673647353582620

[wombat33]

They just killed an Iraqi pregnant woman and unborn child. These sick American bastards

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed;_ylt=Atf.luG72SWtnbVfFi4dtb.s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-


what makes me sick is countries so out of control that we need to babysit them.

war is war..........it all sucks.

I wish we would stay home. American soldiers are heros.

[wombat33]

They just killed an Iraqi pregnant woman and unborn child. These sick American bastards

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed;_ylt=Atf.luG72SWtnbVfFi4dtb.s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-




SORRY


HAD TO SAY IT AGAIN


AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE HEROS



WAR SUCKS

[trish]

I agree, soldiers are heroic. I don't think it's their job to be baby sitters...though Iraq does bring the phrase "adventures in babysitting" to mind.

[Oli]

'A Nightmare With No End in Sight'
Former Top U.S. Commander Rips Bush Administration's Effort in Iraq
By DAVID S. CLOUD,The New York Times
Posted: 2007-10-12 22:21:07

WASHINGTON (Oct. 12) - In a sweeping indictment of the four-year effort in Iraq , the former top American commander called the Bush administration's handling of the war incompetent and warned that the United States was "living a nightmare with no end in sight."

In one of his first major public speeches since leaving the Army in late 2006, retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez blamed the administration for a "catastrophically flawed, unrealistically optimistic war plan" and denounced the current "surge" strategy as a "desperate" move that will not achieve long-term stability.

"After more than fours years of fighting, America continues its desperate struggle in Iraq without any concerted effort to devise a strategy that will achieve victory in that war-torn country or in the greater conflict against extremism," Mr. Sanchez said, at a gathering here of military reporters and editors.

General Sanchez is the most senior in a string of retired generals to harshly criticize the administration's conduct of the war. Asked following his remarks why he waited nearly a year after his retirement to outline his views, he responded that that it was not the place of active duty officers to challenge lawful orders from civilian authorities. General Sanchez, who is said to be considering a book, promised further public statements criticizing officials by name.

"There was been a glaring and unfortunate display of incompetent strategic leadership within our national leaders," he said, adding later in his remarks that civilian officials have been "derelict in their duties" and guilty of a "lust for power."

The White House had no initial comment.

But his role as commander in Iraq during the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal leaves General Sanchez vulnerable to criticism that that he is shifting the blame from himself and exacting revenge against an administration that replaced him as the top commander in the aftermath of the scandal and declined to nominate him for a fourth star, forcing his retirement.

Though he was cleared of wrongdoing in the abuse matter by an Army investigation, he nonetheless became a symbol, along with officials like L. Paul Bremer III , the chief administrator in Iraq, of the ineffective American leadership early in the occupation.

Questioned by reporters after his speech, he included the military and himself among those who made mistakes in Iraq, citing the failure to insist on a better post-invasion stabilization plan.

But his main criticism was leveled at the Bush administration, which he said he said has failed to mobilize the entire United States government, other than the military, to contribute meaningfully to reconstructing and stabilizing Iraq.

"National leadership continues to believe that victory can be achieved by military power alone," he said. "Continued manipulations and adjustments to our military strategy will not achieve victory. The best we can do with this flawed approach is stave off defeat."

More StoriesAsked after his remarks what strategy he favored, General Sanchez ticked off a series of steps - from promoting reconciliation among Iraq's warring sectarian factions to building effective Iraqi army and police units - that closely paralleled the list of tasks frequently cited by the Bush administration.

But he said that the administration had failed crafted a detailed strategy for achieving those steps that went beyond the use of military force.

"The administration, Congress and the entire inter-agency, especially the State Department, must shoulder responsibility for the catastrophic failure, and the American people must hold them accountable," General Sanchez said

[Nivek]

Ezed posted Read the story! "The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings."

How many US soldiers are dead from sucide car bombers. Do you think any of the soldiers there had a clue that woman were in the car.

Why the fuck am I posting to this thread, none of you angry typing guys has a clue about real life. You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.

LEAVE THE FUCKING SOLDIERS ALONE! IF IT BOTHERS YOU ALL THAT MUCH, GET UP OFF YOUR FUCKING CHAIRS, TURN OFF YOUR FUCKING COMPUTERS, PULL UP YOUR PANTS, AND GIVE UP JACKING TO SHEMALES FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND GO TO WASHINGTON OR YOUR LOCAL REP'S OFFICE AND SAY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE.

Christ you're a bunch of fucking soap box retards. Put yourself in the soldier's shoes, in their mind their risking their life for you. And you're pissing on them. If you're sincre in your beliefs then get up off your ass and make your thoughts known to your reps. You'll be back in time to catch up on the threads and see the next episode of "The Apprentice" . Meanwhile, they'll be sitting in the dark wondering if that speeding car that's approaching is a fucking moving bomb or just some dumb fuck not paying attention and talking on his cell phone. I second that and support our troops.

[Night Rider]

Why the fuck am I posting to this thread, none of you angry typing guys has a clue about real life. You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.


We don't have a clue?? haha do u not mean the media twists it around in favour of Bush?? If only u knew what was REALLY going on, then u wouldn't be coming here, wasting our time!!


IF IT BOTHERS YOU ALL THAT MUCH, GET UP OFF YOUR FUCKING CHAIRS, TURN OFF YOUR FUCKING COMPUTERS, PULL UP YOUR PANTS, AND GIVE UP JACKING TO SHEMALES FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND GO TO WASHINGTON OR YOUR LOCAL REP'S OFFICE AND SAY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE.

The fact that u have signed up as soon as u can't view the pics, means it's highly likely that u are the one lurking with ur cock out..


Put yourself in the soldier's shoes, in their mind their risking their life for you. And you're pissing on them.

They're not risking their lives for ME or any American...they're risking their lives for Bush. REMEMBER THAT! Nobody's forcing them to be out there, that's THEIR choice...

If i was a soldier and there was an illegal war, i'd quit before i'd fight and KILL. But that's just my opinion and i'm sure there'll be a lot who disagree...

[NewYorker]

Nobody's forcing them to be out there, that's THEIR choice...


Actually they don't have a choice unless they signed up after the war in Iraq started, which most of them didn't.

[Night Rider]

Nobody's forcing them to be out there, that's THEIR choice...


Actually they don't have a choice unless they signed up after the war in Iraq started, which most of them didn't.

If that's true then that's the most fucked up thing i've ever heard!

But with the Bush government nothing surprises me!

http://www.infowars.com/images2/ps/Bush_-_HitlerFake.jpg

[tsmandy]

Nobody's forcing them to be out there, that's THEIR choice...


Actually they don't have a choice unless they signed up after the war in Iraq started, which most of them didn't.

Well, they have a small choice, they can apply for conscientious objector status, which several have done, though many of them have been court- marshaled , dishonorably discharged, and in a few cases imprisoned. But for the vast majority of soldiers, many of whom have seen their duty extended multiple times in Iraq unwillingly, there is no say whatsoever.

It's a tricky subject, a soldiers culpability in an evil war.

[NewYorker]

Nobody's forcing them to be out there, that's THEIR choice...


Actually they don't have a choice unless they signed up after the war in Iraq started, which most of them didn't.

Well, they have a small choice, they can apply for conscientious objector status, which several have done, though many of them have been court- marshaled , dishonorably discharged, and in a few cases imprisoned. But for the vast majority of soldiers, many of whom have seen their duty extended multiple times in Iraq unwillingly, there is no say whatsoever.

It's a tricky subject, a soldiers culpability in an evil war.

I won't go so far as saying it's an evil war either. Misguided and mismanaged yes, but ultimately evil, no.

[Night Rider]

I don't know if it's an evil war for sure, but there is a case for it...

[NewYorker]

I don't know if it's an evil war for sure, but there is a case for it...

I guess it would also depend on what you feel makes a war evil.

[Night Rider]

I don't know if it's an evil war for sure, but there is a case for it...

I guess it would also depend on what you feel makes a war evil.

guantanamo bay for a start

[tsafficianado]

night rider i see you are maintaining your 11775 posts/year rate.
are you by any chance homebound?

[Night Rider]

night rider i see you are maintaining your 11775 posts/year rate.
are you by any chance homebound?

its been discussed...so u can put ur calculator down and try to come back to reality

:arrow:

i had a car accident and im homebound for another couple of weeks at least

[tsmandy]

I don't know if it's an evil war for sure, but there is a case for it...

I guess it would also depend on what you feel makes a war evil.

That's an important question to answer, and it has been addressed thoroughly since the end of World War II. Trying to cope with the devastation inflicted by World War II, the United Nations and its signatory members met together to establish a legal framework regarding the use of force between nation-states, as well as human rights standards and obligations of invading armies towards civilian populations and enemy soldiers. These laws (not recommendations, but laws which are binding) were very clear about things like bombing civilian infrastructure (illegal), using torture (both psychical as well as psychological) collective punishment etc...

Though they may not be the end all be all of jurisprudence, they provide a humane framework to approach international relations and wartime behavior. When a country violates these laws, it is reasonable to begin asking serious questions about the moral legitimacy of its actions.

Turning to Iraq.

The common stance the mainstream media (IE the handful of megacorporations like General Electric -a weapons manufacturer- that own the vast majority of the nations newspapers, television stations, radio stations, and telcom companies and thus control the public debate.) has taken ranges from reports on how "our" guys are doing, are we winning or losing? Rarely do stories get discussed where people ask about the policy of bombing hospitals, water treatment facilities, and other aspects of civilian infrastructure that it is illegal to target under international law. Along with this comes a deference for officials, especially the president and his staff, which rarely questions official versions of events. Because of this, the vast majority of Americans have been told a very misleading story, from the get go.

I remember seeing Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector, once a darling of the US for his tough guy approach to searching for Weapons of Mass Destruction, speak at Harvard in the winter of 2002. The country was abuzz with discussions of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction. The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, FOX, The Chicago Tribune, The San Fransisco Chronicle, CBS, they all told the same story. SADDAM HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION bush says force may be necessary. Problem was, according to Scott Ritter, the whole thing was a complete fabrication. He was outraged, but also as a patriotic man, deeply baffled at why the US was turning away from Afghanistan when Bin Laden was still at large. He then proceeded in depth, to debunk the propaganda being used by the Bush administration. It was not difficult to do, but if one looked for even a moment at the evidence, it was obvious Bush was lying through his teeth.

I was very involved at the time in local and national anti-war organizing, and I was not alone. There were millions of us, half a million alone gathered in NYC during a blizzard to demand that Bush not invade Iraq. That whole time we were working so hard to stop the war, the media downplayed our efforts and dismissed our arguments. (Of course we were right about everything, our worst nightmares all came true) Shortly thereafter Bush appeared before America and announced Operation Iraqi Liberation which was quickly changed to Operation Iraqi Freedom, in order to free Iraqis from the tryanny of Saddam and create democracy.

After the campaign of "Shock And Awe" which repeatedly violated international law with its targeting of hospitals, sewage treatment plants, electrical plants, and was supposed to somehow usher in a peaceful new era with no running water, hospital facilities, schools, bridges, lights or air conditioning.

Bush declares an end to war and the country plunges into chaos. Replacing General Garner is Viceroy Paul Bremer, whose first decrees while in office sold off the Iraqi banking system to foreign multinationals, created a flat tax of %15 unheard of anywhere but an occupied country, removed all trade tariffs, outlawed unions, and much more "economic shock therapy" was delivered, plunging the country into a devastating economic spiral. Bremer issued these decrees as binding from here on out, to never be changed by subsequent Iraqi governments. The country exploded in fury, as any country would if it had been conquered then thoroughly plundered by its "liberators".

What has followed is a tragedy of sickeningly epic proportions and is well documented. Along with that, some people have grown unbelievably wealthy in a very short period of time, the consequences of which still remain to be seen.

So I would say evil, I would say moral culpability is something that always needs to be considered when a government tells you its going to war.

[NewYorker]

I don't know if it's an evil war for sure, but there is a case for it...

I guess it would also depend on what you feel makes a war evil.

That's an important question to answer, and it has been addressed thoroughly since the end of World War II. Trying to cope with the devastation inflicted by World War II, the United Nations and its signatory members met together to establish a legal framework regarding the use of force between nation-states, as well as human rights standards and obligations of invading armies towards civilian populations and enemy soldiers. These laws (not recommendations, but laws which are binding) were very clear about things like bombing civilian infrastructure (illegal), using torture (both psychical as well as psychological) collective punishment etc...

Though they may not be the end all be all of jurisprudence, they provide a humane framework to approach international relations and wartime behavior. When a country violates these laws, it is reasonable to begin asking serious questions about the moral legitimacy of its actions.

Turning to Iraq.

The common stance the mainstream media (IE the handful of megacorporations like General Electric -a weapons manufacturer- that own the vast majority of the nations newspapers, television stations, radio stations, and telcom companies and thus control the public debate.) has taken ranges from reports on how "our" guys are doing, are we winning or losing? Rarely do stories get discussed where people ask about the policy of bombing hospitals, water treatment facilities, and other aspects of civilian infrastructure that it is illegal to target under international law. Along with this comes a deference for officials, especially the president and his staff, which rarely questions official versions of events. Because of this, the vast majority of Americans have been told a very misleading story, from the get go.

I remember seeing Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector, once a darling of the US for his tough guy approach to searching for Weapons of Mass Destruction, speak at Harvard in the winter of 2002. The country was abuzz with discussions of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction. The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, FOX, The Chicago Tribune, The San Fransisco Chronicle, CBS, they all told the same story. SADDAM HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION bush says force may be necessary. Problem was, according to Scott Ritter, the whole thing was a complete fabrication. He was outraged, but also as a patriotic man, deeply baffled at why the US was turning away from Afghanistan when Bin Laden was still at large. He then proceeded in depth, to debunk the propaganda being used by the Bush administration. It was not difficult to do, but if one looked for even a moment at the evidence, it was obvious Bush was lying through his teeth.

I was very involved at the time in local and national anti-war organizing, and I was not alone. There were millions of us, half a million alone gathered in NYC during a blizzard to demand that Bush not invade Iraq. That whole time we were working so hard to stop the war, the media downplayed our efforts and dismissed our arguments. (Of course we were right about everything, our worst nightmares all came true) Shortly thereafter Bush appeared before America and announced Operation Iraqi Liberation which was quickly changed to Operation Iraqi Freedom, in order to free Iraqis from the tryanny of Saddam and create democracy.

After the campaign of "Shock And Awe" which repeatedly violated international law with its targeting of hospitals, sewage treatment plants, electrical plants, and was supposed to somehow usher in a peaceful new era with no running water, hospital facilities, schools, bridges, lights or air conditioning.

Bush declares an end to war and the country plunges into chaos. Replacing General Garner is Viceroy Paul Bremer, whose first decrees while in office sold off the Iraqi banking system to foreign multinationals, created a flat tax of %15 unheard of anywhere but an occupied country, removed all trade tariffs, outlawed unions, and much more "economic shock therapy" was delivered, plunging the country into a devastating economic spiral. Bremer issued these decrees as binding from here on out, to never be changed by subsequent Iraqi governments. The country exploded in fury, as any country would if it had been conquered then thoroughly plundered by its "liberators".

What has followed is a tragedy of sickeningly epic proportions and is well documented. Along with that, some people have grown unbelievably wealthy in a very short period of time, the consequences of which still remain to be seen.

So I would say evil, I would say moral culpability is something that always needs to be considered when a government tells you its going to war.

Let's start by clearing up something so there's no misunderstandings, I was at the same march you were in New York. I'm not for the war in anyway. I felt strongly that if we belonged anyplace it was in Afganistan finishing the job we started there. However, I've never been one for hyperbole either, which ultimately I feel calling this war evil is. The elements that you've listed, as well as moral culapbility, have been present in every war this country has ever been involved in. They are not criterial enough to label something evil. Especially when facing an oppenent that does not follow the rule set out by a powerful few and does not use the traditional modus operani of military encounters. And before you get up in arms, I am not validating torture, I'm strongly against that as well. However, when the enemy operates out of civilian structures then civilian structures will because casualities. None of this makes a war evil.

If the Bush administation had enter in to Iraq with the intents of massacring the sunnis, or kurds then I'd agree with you. But ultimately, I believe that this war has been mismanaged, mishandled, and misrepresented, you'll get no argument from me there. But to call it evil is a stretch. By your definition almost every war ever is evil then. Which if you believe is fine and just means that you have a more sensitive definition of evil than I do (and therefore probably a better person than I am).

[Night Rider]

if there is mass deaths and torture for a war primarily about oil and money, it's evil in my eyes

[NewYorker]

if there is mass deaths and torture for a war primarily about oil and money, it's evil in my eyes

That would make the American Revolution and Civil War evil since they were both all about money and had plenty of mass death.

[Night Rider]

if there is mass deaths and torture for a war primarily about oil and money, it's evil in my eyes

That would make the American Revolution and Civil War evil since they were both all about money and had plenty of mass death.

You said it, not me!

I don't know much about that so im not going to pretend i do.

Tell me your view on the war and how it has benefited USA and the rest of the world..

[NewYorker]

if there is mass deaths and torture for a war primarily about oil and money, it's evil in my eyes

That would make the American Revolution and Civil War evil since they were both all about money and had plenty of mass death.

You said it, not me!

I don't know much about that so im not going to pretend i do.

Tell me your view on the war and how it has benefited USA and the rest of the world..

I'm not saying it's evil, I'm saying by your definition it's evil. Also, I'm not saying the irag war has benefited the world. As you can see from my response to Mandy I'm anti-war. However, I think there's a difference between a war being mismanaged, misdirected and misrepresesnted and being outright evil.

[Night Rider]

if there is mass deaths and torture for a war primarily about oil and money, it's evil in my eyes

That would make the American Revolution and Civil War evil since they were both all about money and had plenty of mass death.

You said it, not me!

I don't know much about that so im not going to pretend i do.

Tell me your view on the war and how it has benefited USA and the rest of the world..

I'm not saying it's evil, I'm saying by your definition it's evil. Also, I'm not saying the irag war has benefited the world. As you can see from my response to Mandy I'm anti-war. However, I think there's a difference between a war being mismanaged, misdirected and misrepresesnted and being outright evil.

Yea i understand what ur saying and i don't blame the soldiers, as they were lied to. The iraq war has not benefited any of the world apart from the White House. All it has done is multiply the hate for the west to an almost unmanagable level. They aren't going to forget this war in a hurry and ultimately there will be attacks on USA and UK. Unfortunatley that's almost certain...

[thx1138]

What I haven't seen mentioned at all is the revolutionary conclusion of the Nuremburgh trials that says: No soldier can use the "I was only following orders" defense when being charged with complicity in war crimes. Or perhaps this applies ONLY to the losers in a war.

[thx1138]

International diplomacy = bribery, blackmail, intimidation, attempted murder, murder.

[Oli]

International diplomacy = bribery, blackmail, intimidation, attempted murder, murder.

By this definition, the only way disputes between nations can be solved is by warfare.
The Cold War is a great example of diplomacy- two diametrically opposed ideologies talked their way to a coexistence, even as they fought proxy wars and did all things possible to undermine the other. Through diplomacy, war between the 'super powers' was avoided and Central Europe wasn't turned into a killing ground for the third time in a hundred years.

[Jaguar b. p.]

You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.

LEAVE THE FUCKING SOLDIERS ALONE!

Put yourself in the soldier's shoes, in their mind their risking their life for you. And you're pissing on them.
Many of the Crusaders in Iraq have reenlisted, they are well aware of what they're doing and are not coerced into it.

The troops are 100% responsible for their own actions, they aren't inanimate objects.

In fact Bush is just a broken old man who has killed no one personally,
it's people like these goons in the military that empower him
and they are carrying out all the slaughter.

[Night Rider]

You use what the press feeds you to attack the actions of a bunch of kids in a situation you angry typing guys can never imagine.

LEAVE THE FUCKING SOLDIERS ALONE!

Put yourself in the soldier's shoes, in their mind their risking their life for you. And you're pissing on them.
Many of the Crusaders in Iraq have reenlisted, they are well aware of what they're doing and are not coerced into it.

The troops are 100% responsible for their own actions, they aren't inanimate objects.

In fact Bush is just a broken old man who has killed no one personally,
it's people like these goons in the military that empower him
and they are carrying out all the slaughter.

Well said.

[thx1138]

US hiding military casualties?http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney11172007.html