Shaming men attracted to Trans Women...

[Ben in LA]

Something serious for a change. Written by Janet Mock.

http://janetmock.com/2013/09/12/men-who-date-attracted-to-trans-women-stigma/

Lets have a discussion, shall we?

[GroobySteven]

Janet is awesome. A unique girl.

[bluesoul]

Something serious for a change. Written by Janet Mock.

http://janetmock.com/2013/09/12/men-who-date-attracted-to-trans-women-stigma/

Lets have a discussion, shall we?

okay. it's an interesting argument but here is my main problem:

first- with the mister cee situation: the first time it happened he swore that he was set up. the second time, he was supposedly solicited by a cop and this time- he said he has a problem. if mister cee had actually just said "look, this is me. this is what i like- take me or leave me" then that would be a different case. but mister cee is embarrassed about it and kept doing it "quietly" rather than out in the open which makes the entire situation questionable.

if mister cee was dating or discussing his interest and relationships on air- then the situation would be treated differently (like in the case with frank ocean). would there be people lampooning him with insults? sure. but there would also be people standing up for him.

another case janet brought up was chingy. okay- here is another problem. chingy was set up. the transsexual who claimed she had sex with him later admitted she lied strictly to make a name for herself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjentCDt27w

so that's the problem i already see with her arguments. the examples she's using just don't work (at least for me). when you accuse someone like eddie murphy of being caught with a transsexual prostitute: there is always the question of why eddie murphy has to pay for sex. this is guy that used to make fun of those types of situations during his early RAW performances (remember when he made fun of mister t getting fucked in the ass?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6trIzxkGCn4

one part i found interesting was towards the end when janet said "It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her"

haven't we established that a majority of transsexual women live quiet lives and don't want to be "outed" or "in the spotlight" as transsexuals? so perhaps one can assume the men who are dating these women are living quiet lives too.

the situations we see with these men being demonized for dating transsexuals is not really that different from situations such as anthony weiner being caught with sexting with a sex worker, or the mtv girl making a porn with james deen- it just so happens we're more likely the here about those working in the sex industry because they're the ones who are looking to be in the spotlight.

anyone have thoughts about my opinion?

[bluesoul]

btw: janet also forgot to mention that bimbo winehouse entered the car with no intention of having sex with mister cee but with the phone recording in order to capture his desires and put them up on the internet (this is something bimbo admits on the youtube video)

now with the environment of hiphop being so male ego dominated (bragging about having multiple sexual encounters, lots of money etc) cee actually seems to be a victim of entrapment- which (coincidentally) puts a bad light about transgendered people (or crossdressers in this case).

in essence- bimbo winehouse, took advantage of mister cee's desires. but this is never addressed.

[Bridgettaxo]

Not Cool Bimbo .. NOT COOL

[VictoriaVeil]

BY JANET MOCK.


Guess what? Many men are attracted to women, and trans women are amongst these women.
We, as a society, have not created a space for men to openly express their desire to be with trans women. Instead, we shame men who have this desire, from the boyfriends, cheaters and “chasers” to the “trade,” clients, and pornography admirers. We tell men to keep their attraction to trans women secret, to limit it to the internet, frame it as a passing fetish or transaction. In effect, we’re telling trans women that they are only deserving of secret interactions with men, further demeaning and stigmatizing trans women.
I’ve stood witness to many so-called scandals, mostly published on gossip blogs, where passing interactions with trans women spawn hundreds of headlines, particularly for a man with fame and social capital. Thousands of words have been dedicated to analyzing whether such and such famous man is now suspect, merely because he took a photo with a fan who happened to be a trans woman. This questioning has led many well-known men to adamantly defend their heterosexuality and has tarnished the reputation and careers of others. It sounds like silliness on the surface, but often times when gossip blogs are the public’s only exposure to trans women, it spreads misinformation, validates stereotypes and causes irreparable damage.
When a man can be shamed merely for interacting with a trans women – whether it be through a photograph, a sex tape or correspondences — what does this say about how society views trans women? More important, what does this do to trans women?
This pervasive ideology says that trans women are shameful, that trans women are not worthy of being seen and that trans women must remain a secret — invisible and disposable. If a man dares to be seen with a trans woman, he will likely lose social capital so he must adamantly deny, vehemently demean, trash and/or exterminate the woman in question. He must do this to maintain his standing in our patriarchal society. For a man to be associated with a trans women, in effect, is to say that he is no longer a “real” man (as if such a thing exists) because he sleeps with “fake” women (as if such a thing exists).
The comments and conversations surrounding hip-hop DJ Mister Cee’s sex scandal-turned-resignation has been appalling, and has led me to this essay, which isn’t about him soliciting sex from someone he perceived as a trans woman. The Mister Cee “scandal” sheds light on society’s ignorance, similarly exhibited when Chris Brown, Chingy and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson took photos with trans women; similarly exhibited when folks gender-policed Joseline Hernandez to the point where she Tweeted a nude photo to prove her cis-ness; similarly exhibited when Eddie Murphy, LL Cool J and a list of other powerful men were accused of being “caught” seeking trans women.
This anti-trans woman ideology is harmful, misogynistic and pervasive and travels way beyond the comments section of gossip blogs, and as Sylvia Rivera once said, “I will no longer put up with this shit.”
I am a trans woman. My sisters are trans women. We are not secrets. We are not shameful. We are worthy of respect, desire, and love. As there are many kinds of women, there are many kinds of men, and many men desire many kinds of women, trans women are amongst these women. And let’s be clear: Trans women are women.
The shame that society attaches to these men, specifically attacking their sexuality and shaming their attraction, directly affects trans women. It affects the way we look at ourselves. It amplifies our body-image issues, our self-esteem, our sense of possibility, of daring for greatness, of aiming for something or somewhere greater. If a young trans woman believes that the only way she can share intimate space with a man is through secret hookups, bootycalls or transaction, she will be led to engage in risky sexual behaviors that make her more vulnerable to criminalization, disease and violence; she will be led to coddle a man who takes out his frustrations about his sexuality on her with his fists; she will be led to question whether she’s worthy enough to protect herself with a condom when a man tells her he loves her; she will be led to believe that she is not worthy of being seen, that being seen heightens her risk of violence therefore she must hide who she is at all costs in order to survive.
When I was a girl finding myself, I was met with similar questions and believed I would never find someone to love me. I had learned that I was unworthy and undeserving, and it took me years to release myself from the shame and stigma society had forced upon me as a young woman. A man’s desire for my body, my brain, my brilliance and my existence is not a laughing matter because I am not a joke.
When I met my boyfriend Aaron and disclosed that I am trans, he did not question his sexuality. He recognized me as a woman, and my being trans did not negate my womanhood. My relationship with Aaron is a rarity, though. Don’t get me wrong, I see our loving partnership as a blessing, but not in the same way others view it. Our relationship is marveled at largely because most people do not believe that a man like Aaron should have to “compromise” his heteronormative social standing by being with a trans woman or a woman who is not “real.”
It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her, who has an unabashed desire to be seen with her, who proudly stands beside her — despite the stigma and other people’s curiosities and inappropriate questions. Those questions regarding Aaron’s sexuality are constant and fraught with assumptions that this essay can’t begin to unpack, and for a man less secure it can be difficult navigating these questions, especially if you also perceive the women you’re attracted to as shameful, as less-than-human objects you must keep secret at all costs.
It’s important that we begin truly accepting trans women as who they are, women. We are not objects to have secret sex with, to discard and to laugh at on the radio or the gossip blogosphere. We are worthy of being seen and are not dirty or shameful. Until we begin checking how we delegitimize the identities, bodies and existence of trans women and stigmatize the men who yearn to be with us, we will continue to marginalize our sisters, pushing them further into socially-sanctioned invisibility, left in the dark to fend for themselves with men who are don’t have the space to explore, define and embrace their attraction to various women.

[dabaldone]

Let's keep it real. Mr. C was caught soliciting a male prostitute and two drag/cross-dressers, not transsexual women. Look at the pics from his last encounter. He is a gay male, not transattracted.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.

[Michelle Firestone]

Something serious for a change. Written by Janet Mock.

[url]http://janetmock.com/2013/09/12/men-who-date-attracted-to-trans-women-stigma/[/ url]

Lets have a discussion, shall we?

I don't think there's anything to discuss. If you shame another human being for showing love to another, you're being a huge jerk. No matter the reason. It's wrong.

[nysprod]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.

Care to elaborate on that?

[Michelle Firestone]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.

I seriously never understood that phenomenon. I don't understand why girls do that. It makes me sad.

[evoker8812]

I seriously never understood that phenomenon. I don't understand why girls do that. It makes me sad.

A lot of the women are projecting their own insecurities and cynicism towards society. Obviously the men who fetishize transgender women should be called out but guys who want legitimate relationships with them shouldn't be labeled as "chasers" and ridiculed by the same women who they're attracted to.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Yes, of course society shames men interested in transsexuals because they are ignorant...but ts women shame them too who aren't!

I just don't see how any ts girl calls a man interested in them a fag it's hypocritical. He is attracted to you so are you a FAG?

TS girls have issue if the guys desires another transsexual. If he has dated or slept with another transsexual many hate that too. They need to get over that..women have. It's so silly to me. Most likely if one hot transsexual is good enough another one will be too!

To me those are the transsexuals that need a man to fill their ego. They need that delusion to feel more feminine. That oh he only finds me attractive. I'm special and so on.

Heavenlysin and I were discussing this the other day at dinner. Transsexuals are just too hard on the men interested in us. We also discussed how men who date transsexuals will also be mentally abusive when they are feeling insecure and pick out your flaws on purpose to hurt you. So it's a double edged sword many times..both insecure where they are..so they disrespect one another to bring themselves up.

I just think the shaming needs to stop in general!

Well known tranny chasers are called fags a lot of times cause they had sex with so many and the tgirl feels burnt/used.

If a guy is a bottom he is called a fag by a trans-women.

The list goes on.

[rick_932]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.

i agree that many trans-women use a man's attraction to them to shame, blackball, and manipulate the man. That was my main issue with the whole Mr. C and bimbo winehouse situation. Bimbo clearly knew who he was and decided to put him on blast publicly, even after she got paid $100 for doing nothing.

@bluesoul

I think you missed the point with many of Janet's subjects. When she mentioned the stars who were caught taking pictures or rumored to have relationships with trans-women, she said that these stars had to state publicly that they weren't gay, even though many of these stars didn't know they were with a trans-woman. She never accused them of any wrong-doing. Her point is that many men feel they have to do this because society instantly labels them as gay because they were caught with a trans-woman and they have to defend their manhood. She's saying there's no other label for being attracted to a transsexual other than 'gay'.

You also respond to another one of her points with "haven't we established that a majority of transsexual women live quiet lives and don't want to be "outed" or "in the spotlight" as transsexuals? so perhaps one can assume the men who are dating these women are living quiet lives too."

The point she's making regards openly transsexuals in an open relationship, not secret. Here's her quote: "It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her". You can have an open relationship with a transsexual and still live a quiet life.

[MDinMD]

Yes, I read this earlier today. It's very unfortunate - I certainly keep my desires for transwomen under cover - not because there's something wrong with it, but because much of society acts as though there is. Oh, anybody who knows me personally is likely to know - but at work, nobody does. I'm not going to launch a jeremiad about my profession (I'm a physician), but the medical community is very conservative, even in the not-all-that conservative area where I live.

[dderek123]

Sidney Starr lied about the Chingy thing? SMDH

Kelly you are awesome.

[bluesoul]

@bluesoul

I think you missed the point with many of Janet's subjects. When she mentioned the stars who were caught taking pictures or rumored to have relationships with trans-women, she said that these stars had to state publicly that they weren't gay, even though many of these stars didn't know they were with a trans-woman. She never accused them of any wrong-doing.

that doesn't make any sense. if they didn't know they were with trans-women, who did they think they were with? and why state your not gay if you don't know someone is trans? does that then mean they thought the person they were taking a picture with was gay?

also i don't get your second part in regards to "living openly trans but a quiet life"

[tsmirandameadows]

Yes, of course society shames men interested in transsexuals because they are ignorant...but ts women shame them too who aren't!

I just don't see how any ts girl calls a man interested in them a fag it's hypocritical. He is attracted to you so are you a FAG?

TS girls have issue if the guys desires another transsexual. If he has dated or slept with another transsexual many hate that too. They need to get over that..women have. It's so silly to me. Most likely if one hot transsexual is good enough another one will be too!

To me those are the transsexuals that need a man to fill their ego. They need that delusion to feel more feminine. That oh he only finds me attractive. I'm special and so on.

Heavenlysin and I were discussing this the other day at dinner. Transsexuals are just too hard on the men interested in us. We also discussed how men who date transsexuals will also be mentally abusive when they are feeling insecure and pick out your flaws on purpose to hurt you. So it's a double edged sword many times..both insecure where they are..so they disrespect one another to bring themselves up.

I just think the shaming needs to stop in general!

Well known tranny chasers are called fags a lot of times cause they had sex with so many and the tgirl feels burnt/used.

If a guy is a bottom he is called a fag by a trans-women.

The list goes on.

I think it's probably a function of how heavy your rucksack is when you're trans. The insecurity, the self-loathing, the body image problems; the list goes on and those are just the things trans girls will inflict upon themselves without even considering what is inflicted upon them by others. The end result in so many cases is that you cannot possibly accept that a man is legitimately attracted to you for your femininity, and thus I would imagine that many tgirls feel they have to demean their boyfriend's attraction to them in the same way that they demean themselves.

I fortunately do not have that problem, demeaning the men who are attracted to me, but I have found that I have become far too dependent upon the presence of in-person male attraction to maintain my emotional stabiity. I have a guy friend who, while not official, I spend a fair amount of time with. When I'm with him, I feel validated as a woman, and while my major source of insecurity never quite goes away, it fades far enough into the background that I can feel happy and enjoy my time with him. Yet, when I am away from him, or even just away from a random male hookup, for any length of time, I lose control of my emotions, as if male attention provides a bulwark against my insecurity, and without constant male attention I am washed away by the tide of my own self-hatred. This is not a good position to be in because I cannot be around sexually interested men 24/7, and allowing myself to slip into a state where I feel like I need that attention 24/7 is likely only to lead to some incredibly risky behaviors.

I suppose being trans is just this incredibly complicated balancing act, where no matter where you are in your sense of being female, the mere fact that you are trans in a society that makes no room for being transgendered forces you to stay in a constant state of readjustment and recalibration, as if balancing on a highwire, otherwise you simply lose the ability to continue to bear that rucksack on the long road march through life.

[tsmirandameadows]

that doesn't make any sense. if they didn't know they were with trans-women, who did they think they were with? and why state your not gay if you don't know someone is trans? does that then mean they thought the person they were taking a picture with was gay?

also i don't get your second part in regards to "living openly trans but a quiet life"

Sure it does. Random star is photographed with a fan that he doesn't know is trans. Gossip blogs reveal that said fan was trans and begin insinuating that if random male star is willing to be photographed with trannies, even unknowningly, then there must be something "not straight" with his sexuality. Random male star then has to publicly come out and defend his heterosexuality, generally making comments to the effect that he would never do a "dude in a dress" and simply didn't know that the fan in question was trans, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to be photographed with "him".

[Odelay]

Michelle and Miranda, thanks for sharing your perspectives. It occurs to me that you're part of a - for lack of a better term - new generation of t-girls. And I'm picking up a different vibe from many of the newer t-girls, i.e. less shaming of the guys who are attracted to them, less self-loathing, more positive outlook on their future as trans-women. The article speaks a current truth, but I wonder if things aren't starting to gradually change for the better.

I love the "it gets better" campaign for GLBT youth. And even beyond just the GLBT population, the anti-bullying campaign is starting to pay dividends. Frat boys who do and say stupid things are being laughed at on the internet. Okay, I see that as a form of electronic bullying, too, but in many cases these dolts deserve it. And it's turned the term bully into a very negative thing that is no longer macho in any way.

Perhaps after anti-bullying comes anti-shaming. I hope so.

[rick_932]

that doesn't make any sense. if they didn't know they were with trans-women, who did they think they were with?

in regards to taking pictures with trans-women, some guys just don't know. they think theyre with genetic females. chingy didn't know he was taking a pic with a transsexual (sidney star).



and why state your not gay if you don't know someone is trans? does that then mean they thought the person they were taking a picture with was gay?

that's the point Janet is trying to make. In this situation, even though these guys know they aren't gay, because they were seen with a transsexual, even a harmless picture they took not knowing the woman was trans, once the public finds out about it, they have the tendency to 1.) assume that the guy knew she was trans and 2.) label them as gay because there's no other category to put them in. So then the guys have to declare publicly that they aren't gay. This is especially true in the hip hop and pro sports community because the men feel their manhood/image is being questioned and they have to protect it.



also i don't get your second part in regards to "living openly trans but a quiet life"
There are many man-transwoman couples who are open with their relationship...not afraid to go out in public together and live quiet lives (go to work, store, back home, etc...) because no one harasses them, especially in liberal areas. Janet is saying if there was no stigma of being labeled as gay if you're with a trans-woman, that you'd see more trans couples being open, out in the public, with their relationship instead of just keeping it behind closed doors.

[bluesoul]

Sure it does. Random star is photographed with a fan that he doesn't know is trans. Gossip blogs reveal that said fan was trans and begin insinuating that if random male star is willing to be photographed with trannies, even unknowningly, then there must be something "not straight" with his sexuality. Random male star then has to publicly come out and defend his heterosexuality, generally making comments to the effect that he would never do a "dude in a dress" and simply didn't know that the fan in question was trans, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to be photographed with "him".

okay. i get what you're saying, but as i pointed out earlier (first page of this thread) the "male star" photographed with the transsexual had been taken advantage of as she had lied to the gossip blog that she had sexual relations with the "male star". in fact, she did this for a long time- on both radio and print

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjentCDt27w

there is obviously the question of how these gossip blogs "discover" that someone is trans if they are not going around saying so as it would be much easier to accuse any "male star" for being gay every-time they are photographed with another man rather than waiting until they are photographed with a transwoman

also- i doubt the mentioned "male stars" are the only people who have taken photos with transsexuals. i'm sure famous people take pictures with transsexuals all the time- but this is just one of those rare occasions when the moon is in retrograde and someone looking to further their career (or notoriety) takes advantage of a situation and calls wolf

as in the case with bimbo winehouse- who soley got into mister cee's car strictly to record their conversation. so it's almost like both sidney starr and bimbo winehouse were aware prior to entrapping these two men that the backlash about their status being trans and crossdresser (respectively) would be seen negatively and they did everything to support this backlash.

so it's kinda hard to see janet's point when the people who she has used as examples to illustrate her point, actually facilitated in victimizing the men

[rick_932]

okay. i get what you're saying, but as i pointed out earlier (first page of this thread) the "male star" photographed with the transsexual had been taken advantage of as she had lied to the gossip blog that she had sexual relations with the "male star". in fact, she did this for a long time- on both radio and print


and after that apology chingy wanted and still to this day wants word to spread that he is and has never been gay. if accusations of chingy sleeping with a female prostitute had come up, people wouldn't have cared but because the accusations were about a transsexual, his heterosexuality was called into question and he felt the need to come out and defend it. If the public wouldn't have labeled him as gay due to the accusation, he wouldn't have had to come out so forcefully to deny that he wasn't gay.



so it's kinda hard to see janet's point when the people who she has used as examples to illustrate her point, actually facilitated in victimizing the men

again, her point is more about how society labels the men, even if they aren't at fault.

[tsmirandameadows]

And I'm picking up a different vibe from many of the newer t-girls, i.e. less shaming of the guys who are attracted to them, less self-loathing, more positive outlook on their future as trans-women.

Well, I can certainly see the first item on the list, but if if I'm an example of LESS self-loathing and MORE positivity in comparison to previous generations of tgirls, I shudder to think what it was like for them. Fending off my own self-hatred and maintaining positivity about my future are the two hardest daily tasks I deal with. Most days I don't succeed with them.

[bluesoul]

and after that apology chingy wanted and still to this day wants word to spread that he is and has never been gay. if accusations of chingy sleeping with a female prostitute had come up, people wouldn't have cared but because the accusations were about a transsexual, his heterosexuality was called into question and he felt the need to come out and defend it. If the public wouldn't have labeled him as gay due to the accusation, he wouldn't have had to come out so forcefully to deny that he wasn't gay.



again, her point is more about how society labels the men, even if they aren't at fault.

gotcha. sorry if it took a long time for this to comes through. here are my thoughts:

i think this is mostly a problem with "being gay" being seen as being something negative. lots of people come on this forum and ask if they're gay and we tell them "it doesn't matter just as long as you're happy" or "labels don't matter". clearly that advice is inaccurate because people do worry about labels.

there is also the fact that (eg. in the case of chingy) they don't want to be labelled wrongly or others who are hesitant (eg. in the case of mister cee) with being labelled a certain way (gay).

there is also the fact that society does not define being gay the same way a majority of the people in the trans community define being gay. this is the reason why in the video where mister cee is being interviewed by a radio host he says "i'm not gay. i just occasionally enjoy getting fellatio from a man who looks like a woman"

[Ben]

Transgender Equality and Nondiscrimination:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG3e8oY52uc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2N7t5Wqkkk

True Transgender Stories:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B6abyTQMlA

[maddygirl]

Why are men so scared of being called gay? That's the real question, lol.

[rick_932]

there is also the fact that society does not define being gay the same way a majority of the people in the trans community define being gay. this is the reason why in the video where mister cee is being interviewed by a radio host he says "i'm not gay. i just occasionally enjoy getting fellatio from a man who looks like a woman"

I agree. Men who are attracted to transsexuals and not other men shouldn't be labeled as gay by society. This morning when Mister Cee kept saying he wasn't gay, I understood where he was coming from but most people didn't because all they saw was him having a fetish of being sucked off by a guy who likes to dress in women's clothes.

I don't know what it'll take to change the perception of a guy being gay because he's attracted to transsexuals and not men. Maybe time...

[Michelle Firestone]

Michelle and Miranda, thanks for sharing your perspectives. It occurs to me that you're part of a - for lack of a better term - new generation of t-girls. And I'm picking up a different vibe from many of the newer t-girls, i.e. less shaming of the guys who are attracted to them, less self-loathing, more positive outlook on their future as trans-women. The article speaks a current truth, but I wonder if things aren't starting to gradually change for the better.



I love all my fans as long as they aren't creeps. Why shouldn't I? They chose me for their sexual fantasy. It's a great thing. Even if they were creepin hard & they overstepped boundaries, I would never call them fags... ugh thats just uncalled for!

& in real life.. idk.. it would never occur to me to be mean like that even if I was rejecting someone.

[mikejones]

Great thread here with some very thoughtful posts. I have been with many T-girls both in LTRs and short term flings. In real life I believe that most T-girls are actually friendly and appreciative toward men who like them. Not all, but most, at least from my experience.

The negativity discussed here is probably more present on the internet than in real life.

[lar336]

Great thread here with some very thoughtful posts. I have been with many T-girls both in LTRs and short term flings. In real life I believe that most T-girls are actually friendly and appreciative toward men who like them. Not all, but most, at least from my experience.

The negativity discussed here is probably more present on the internet than in real life.

Couldn't said it any better Mike. Just like with genetic woman, there are many different perspectives out there and I had my experience with T-girls that are like you said and others there are like described here.


On a side note of the article, it said there are men attracted to women and ts women are among them. The universe of women is changing to include not only genetic girls anymore. Sexuality is a poorly understood subject because if you look the history of sciences, engineering, chemistry, biology go back centuries. But sexuality only decades really, which seem to be started doing the 70s and 80s. So science hasn't really deeply understood this subject yet. But what I seen from history is science on any subject is always expanding beyond the narrow perspective it starts from. As in for example, when people taught the earth was flat b/c the idea of gravity wasn't known. Than taught the earth was the center of the universe. We begin to learn that not everything resolves around us, there is a circle of life for which we are only a part of. I think the same for sexuality in the future, it will be much more expansive to include ts women, women, and who knows what else. But in the end we will find it is all part of the same circle, not separate but one of the same origin.

[theone1982]

I found this whole thread to be great. This idea is really fascinating to me, as someone who is attracted to t-girls, I've found myself wondering if I am turned on by the idea of a woman who at one point lived as a man? Am I attracted to the sort of hyper femininity that the t-girls I've known seem to have had? Is it just the individual, gender details aside? Is it a sort of hidden homosexuality? Is it varying degrees of all these things, some of them, or others? At this point, I don't really know. I do know, however, that I am incredibly attracted to t-girls, and that seems to be the starting point for most people here on this forum.

[nysprod]

Great thread here with some very thoughtful posts. I have been with many T-girls both in LTRs and short term flings. In real life I believe that most T-girls are actually friendly and appreciative toward men who like them. Not all, but most, at least from my experience.

The negativity discussed here is probably more present on the internet than in real life.

So what happened with your many LTR's, if you don't mind me asking.

[lar336]

I found this whole thread to be great. This idea is really fascinating to me, as someone who is attracted to t-girls, I've found myself wondering if I am turned on by the idea of a woman who at one point lived as a man? Am I attracted to the sort of hyper femininity that the t-girls I've known seem to have had? Is it just the individual, gender details aside? Is it a sort of hidden homosexuality? Is it varying degrees of all these things, some of them, or others? At this point, I don't really know. I do know, however, that I am incredibly attracted to t-girls, and that seems to be the starting point for most people here on this forum.

Absolutely, there are really more questions than answers on the subject. However, at this point, I never liked the idea of associating attraction to t-girls as gay simply because it would be confusing for the social world. Imagine if someone said they are gay b/c they like t-girls, than went to a bar and said they are gay...certainly they get hits from gay men if there were ones there (assuming the attraction is there). And, thus, you see the confusion. It is just easier at this point to consider it separate from the "gay world."

[bluesoul]

Absolutely, there are really more questions than answers on the subject. However, at this point, I never liked the idea of associating attraction to t-girls as gay simply because it would be confusing for the social world. Imagine if someone said they are gay b/c they like t-girls, than went to a bar and said they are gay...certainly they get hits from gay men if there were ones there (assuming the attraction is there). And, thus, you see the confusion. It is just easier at this point to consider it separate from the "gay world."

by your example: it seems to me like it would be better and less confusing if he identifed as being gay. reason?

if that person goes to a club and says he is gay, then he is more likely to met someone who a). in transition b). a crossdresser not in dress c). a drag queen not in drag or d). a drag queen or crossdresser in dress/drag e). a femboy

this is similar to how a forum like hungangels caters to transsexuals, crossdressers (both admirers who enjoy dressing for transsexuals and crossdressers who enjoy men) as well as men who have had sex with other men (note: hungangels forums has threads dedicated to all the above)

on a straight forum, it's less likely to have such a diversity and instead a mentality that doesn't deviate or experiment beyond "vagina"

with that said, i completely disagree that associating attraction to t-girls as gay simply because it would be confusing for the social world. in fact, i say it's confusing not to, for the above reasons stated as well as the fact that (as of current) the social world recognizes it as a gay

[MacShreach]

Well, I can certainly see the first item on the list, but if if I'm an example of LESS self-loathing and MORE positivity in comparison to previous generations of tgirls, I shudder to think what it was like for them. Fending off my own self-hatred and maintaining positivity about my future are the two hardest daily tasks I deal with. Most days I don't succeed with them.

Hey girl, you're cool. Believe it. x

[yodajazz]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.


Care to elaborate on that?

We used to get called names here on a regular basis by some of the girls. I remember one who, got to me, bad. She was a post op, who admitted to being bisexual. But she called a man, who wanted a three-some with his gg girl, and a pre-op, a "cock loving fag', or something close. In fact she said that all men, who were attracted to pre-ops were secretly gay. After some deep self examination, I came to the conclusion that she was just a regular hypocrite.

[Wendy Summers]

We used to get called names here on a regular basis by some of the girls. I remember one who, got to me, bad. She was a post op, who admitted to being bisexual. But she called a man, who wanted a three-some with his gg girl, and a pre-op, a "cock loving fag', or something close. In fact she said that all men, who were attracted to pre-ops were secretly gay. After some deep self examination, I came to the conclusion that she was just a regular hypocrite.


That was something which really bothered me when I first arrived on Hung Angels. Most of the regular TS posters were slamming every guy here with that. Now, in my experience there ARE some guys who get off on being called a cock sucking faggot, but its NOT the majority of guys who dig TS.

In terms of guys being afraid to be seen in public, I think it's a more complicated issue than folks typically talk about. There are issues of privilege tied to it. Prior to starting to work in Adult Entertainment, I was under the radar as a transperson. I wasn't intentionally stealth, but the folks who did know me pre-transition tended to keep their mouths shut on the topic. Add in the fact that I'm well employed in Corporate America and well integrated in the world in general, it placed me in an odd situation for a transsexual.

When I dated guys, they were not open about dating transsexuals, but they did often introduce me to friends and family. Over time, they would eventually come out to some of the people close to them that I was a transsexual. The difference had to do with the fact that I seemed "normal". I looked like an average woman; I was fully employed at a respectable job; my friends were pretty much all cis-people. I had a lower hurdle to cross to be in people's comfort zones.

The reality is most transpeople don't have a "normal" life. And that adds stress to a guy who likes us. How can he go about introducing someone when he can't use the typical points you use to explain why this person would be a good relationship. "What does she do?" is a harder question to answer when the woman is underemployed. In a world where we are obsessed with what other people think, the further the woman deviates from the societal norms, the more the guy needs to be someone who cares less about what other people think.

[lar336]

by your example: it seems to me like it would be better and less confusing if he identifed as being gay. reason?

if that person goes to a club and says he is gay, then he is more likely to met someone who a). in transition b). a crossdresser not in dress c). a drag queen not in drag or d). a drag queen or crossdresser in dress/drag e). a femboy

this is similar to how a forum like hungangels caters to transsexuals, crossdressers (both admirers who enjoy dressing for transsexuals and crossdressers who enjoy men) as well as men who have had sex with other men (note: hungangels forums has threads dedicated to all the above)

on a straight forum, it's less likely to have such a diversity and instead a mentality that doesn't deviate or experiment beyond "vagina"

with that said, i completely disagree that associating attraction to t-girls as gay simply because it would be confusing for the social world. in fact, i say it's confusing not to, for the above reasons stated as well as the fact that (as of current) the social world recognizes it as a gay

I see your point especially if want attraction from femboys or cd. But some men who interested in tgirls want someone passable or full time. So I guess it depends on what kind of tgirls the person is interested in

[MacShreach]

That was something which really bothered me when I first arrived on Hung Angels. Most of the regular TS posters were slamming every guy here with that. Now, in my experience there ARE some guys who get off on being called a cock sucking faggot, but its NOT the majority of guys who dig TS.

In terms of guys being afraid to be seen in public, I think it's a more complicated issue than folks typically talk about. There are issues of privilege tied to it. Prior to starting to work in Adult Entertainment, I was under the radar as a transperson. I wasn't intentionally stealth, but the folks who did know me pre-transition tended to keep their mouths shut on the topic. Add in the fact that I'm well employed in Corporate America and well integrated in the world in general, it placed me in an odd situation for a transsexual.

When I dated guys, they were not open about dating transsexuals, but they did often introduce me to friends and family. Over time, they would eventually come out to some of the people close to them that I was a transsexual. The difference had to do with the fact that I seemed "normal". I looked like an average woman; I was fully employed at a respectable job; my friends were pretty much all cis-people. I had a lower hurdle to cross to be in people's comfort zones.

The reality is most transpeople don't have a "normal" life. And that adds stress to a guy who likes us. How can he go about introducing someone when he can't use the typical points you use to explain why this person would be a good relationship. "What does she do?" is a harder question to answer when the woman is underemployed. In a world where we are obsessed with what other people think, the further the woman deviates from the societal norms, the more the guy needs to be someone who cares less about what other people think.

That was well put. I think it is difficult for men to be open if they are in a relationship with a transwoman. Personally I think I am soooo lucky to even know someone as absolutely lovely as my girlfriend; f others can't see her beauty, which is inside and out, then, as my auntie Ruth says, 'Fuck 'em.' But I do understand--because I might be quite thick-skinned, but not that much-- how difficult it is to be open.

I do think the context of this case is important, because I think the macho ethos of the hip-hop scene and its emphasis on masculinity is not at all helpful to transwomen, or in fact any form of non-hetero-normative expression of gender or sexuality. Like all these expressions of patriarchy, men are sucked in, yet often don't fit.

The fact is that in a lifetime of working in the creative spheres, I have never yet met an artist who was completely 100% straight (including me) simply because creation itself is a feminine function. So art forms that promote really extreme masculinity are a bit like an oxymoron.

Mr Cee clearly has some issues to face up to, but one of those is that he has helped to promote a cultural movement that is extremely conservative about sex and gender, while he himself is not; sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

[bte]

For guys who like TS, we are either chases in the eyes of TS or gay by everyone else standards. I've been called for having a TS girlfriend at one point and also got a called a chaser and a fag by that very same g/f when she was angry at me. I can't win!

[Rusty Eldora]

That was something which really bothered me when I first arrived on Hung Angels. Most of the regular TS posters were slamming every guy here with that. Now, in my experience there ARE some guys who get off on being called a cock sucking faggot, but its NOT the majority of guys who dig TS.

In terms of guys being afraid to be seen in public, I think it's a more complicated issue than folks typically talk about. There are issues of privilege tied to it. Prior to starting to work in Adult Entertainment, I was under the radar as a transperson. I wasn't intentionally stealth, but the folks who did know me pre-transition tended to keep their mouths shut on the topic. Add in the fact that I'm well employed in Corporate America and well integrated in the world in general, it placed me in an odd situation for a transsexual.

When I dated guys, they were not open about dating transsexuals, but they did often introduce me to friends and family. Over time, they would eventually come out to some of the people close to them that I was a transsexual. The difference had to do with the fact that I seemed "normal". I looked like an average woman; I was fully employed at a respectable job; my friends were pretty much all cis-people. I had a lower hurdle to cross to be in people's comfort zones.

The reality is most transpeople don't have a "normal" life. And that adds stress to a guy who likes us. How can he go about introducing someone when he can't use the typical points you use to explain why this person would be a good relationship. "What does she do?" is a harder question to answer when the woman is underemployed. In a world where we are obsessed with what other people think, the further the woman deviates from the societal norms, the more the guy needs to be someone who cares less about what other people think.

I'm going to discuss a subset of society - the escort portion of Adult Entertainment, often called the hobby. It is already in the shadows of civil society. When out in public it can be difficult to explain the GG provider with you to your Kiwanis buddies, your boss, your customers, your ex's friends etc. "She works in Customer Relations for travel" is about the best I can come up with. But the hobby has review boards like HA, parties, functions, friend circles, and the like. If there was full acceptance of TG's, Tgirl providers would be basically the same as GG providers and hobbyists that enjoy them would be free to be know about that without any shaming. However, there is a worry there would be shaming.

After my first experiences with Tgirls and I found that I was very attracted to them, I created my Rusty handle to register here and the hobby boards tnaboard.com and adulthobbyboard.com. I have kept my old handle for my GG hobbying. That has allowed me to test the acceptance of TS hobbying. In summary, better than I expected but far from accepted.

There was a group on TNA that discussed TS for several years before me, but I have been active in furthering the discussion. We are getting reviews of providers posted, information on who is good to see and who are the rip offs etc. The current ongoing post about TS started in late march, has 260 posts, and 45K views. Tgirl providers are posting ads (not enough yet) in the same section as the GG. One Tgirl Alita (from Vegas) posted on 9-2 and has had 5,500 views & 11 replies. 2 were slams but several said cut it out, she's right. This is a review board though and there are maybe 30 TS reviews of the 42,600 on the board. The hobbyists have been shamed to not ID as seeing TS on the board. This is with eros having around 12 TS and 100 GG typically.

In 10 years of hobbying prior to 'Rusty' I think I got 3 dozen PM's of questions, as Rusty I've had to clear out my inbox several times as it only holds 250. I feel like I am the "Dear Rusty" column but it is also good getting others to enjoy Tgirls. There are tons of hobbyists that won't be known to the others as seeing TS, but they are very present about GG escorts.

For GG providers, some are ignorant, some are competitive and jealous, and a good sized % would love to have a session themselves with a TS. In chat as Rusty, some pretty open guys I had met at escort parties acted as if I had cooties when I mentioned I had met them. I didn't reveal my other handle. It's going to take work and time to change this.

[ohioboy]

On one hand you have the trans woman who, before they transitioned, were categorized as gay men. And they not only embraced that but they had the guts to also come out as ts and live life as a woman.

We who like ts women and arent gay or arent attracted to men, have not by any means have come out and fear the stigma of being outed. Because if you do like ts women, you will be considered by society as gay.

Hence its, in a way, probably easier to come out as a gay man especially if you consider yourself one. You can have pride in it.

Ive wanted to tell a close female friend who i used to date about my attraction to tgirls but i fear she would react badly being thT she is born again. But she has shame about her sexual past.... So i always want to connect with her because i trust her.


Its a societal thing and the fear of being stigmatized.

But if anything tgirls and the men who like them should be able to comfort eachother.

[blackchubby38]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.


We used to get called names here on a regular basis by some of the girls. I remember one who, got to me, bad. She was a post op, who admitted to being bisexual. But she called a man, who wanted a three-some with his gg girl, and a pre-op, a "cock loving fag', or something close. In fact she said that all men, who were attracted to pre-ops were secretly gay. After some deep self examination, I came to the conclusion that she was just a regular hypocrite.

I totally agree with the both of you. Its truly amazing how that there are those who preach tolerance and acceptance for their race, gender, trans gender, sexual orientation, religion, or sometimes in the case of the BDSM community, their kink. But at the same they can be just as close minded and ignorant when it comes to others.

[fred41]

I totally agree with the both of you. Its truly amazing how that there are those who preach tolerance and acceptance for their race, gender, trans gender, sexual orientation, religion, or sometimes in the case of the BDSM community, their kink. But at the same they can be just as close minded and ignorant when it comes to others.

That's because nitwits come in all shapes and sizes. Some of the posts on this site make that quite clear. Transsexuals are not exempt..no humans are.(unfortunately to some of the guys on here they are)

[Jackal]

Thank you OP for sharing this article and Wendy Summers for sharing your thoughts. I didn't really consider some of the points and ideas you made about the wide variety of experiences transwomen and their dates/boyfriends/husbands face

[bluesoul]

Mr Cee clearly has some issues to face up to, but one of those is that he has helped to promote a cultural movement that is extremely conservative about sex and gender, while he himself is not; sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

i agreed with everything you said except the above.

i really don't see what mister cee has to "face up to" besides cheating on his wife. he was not at work so he's not obligated to us (public or anyone else) since he's not a public servant.

the real fault i see here is with bimbo winehouse because bimbo purposely entered the car with the phone recording to entrap mister cee and release the audio via a video youtube.
it doesn't seem like mister cee knew bimbo prior to this incident so bimbo seems like a pretty mean spirited person to knowingly damage mister cee's career by releasing this information.

also- the op speaks of the media and/or public shaming women who are attracted to transwomen. but didn't both bimbo winehouse and the crossdresser who admitted to fellating mister prior do the same thing- since they took it upon themselves to inform the public about this private affair?

[dabaldone]

I've had several long-term relationships with trans women. Currently I've been with a transwoman for about two months. In the beginning it was a struggle to deal with being a trans attracted man. We have been socially conditioned to believe that gender means penis and vagina only. I have met women who just happen to have a penis who are the most amazing women that I have ever met. My brother told me something years ago the headset with me ever sense. At no time in my life did anyone ever confront me or challenged my manhood. Being 62 225 pounds he also said is anybody going to beat your ass? I have never been happier at any point in my life. I don't know where have to look over my shoulder to worry about what people were saying or worry about being outed.

[pimpdog]

I think she should of also brought up the trans-women who shame the men attracted to us. It's not just society.
Yep, thats just low self esteem working there!!!

[MHarrigan82]

Great Article. The best thread on here in a while. I have dated three tgirls in the past and was not scared to go out in public with them. They were passable, I got a few stares from people that clocked on of my girlfriends when we went to Wal-Mart. A late Saturday afternoon where she did not have makeup on and just had on jogging pants and a t-shirt. I did not openly tell my friends or family that the girl that I am dating is a transsexual. They would not understand and would say and think that I am gay. It is tough for guys like us. I am attracted to biological women, and pre-op, and post-op transsexuals. I have no attraction to femboys, cross dressers, or men. I can't tell a genetic girl that I am dating that I like tgirls or dated one in the past.

[Ben in LA]

Wow...I started a great thread!

[robertlouis]

Janet is awesome. A unique girl.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Arguably the most compassionate and rational advocate for transwomen anywhere.

[robertlouis]

Because of some good stuff in my past, I have a number of trans friends who don't escort and live what you would define as normal lives as best they can. In that sense they are no different from my gay and heterosexual friends.

But the reality of trans life that both Wendy and Miranda have shared passes most of us by - the daily self-doubt, the fear of being denounced by family or friends, the crushing lack of self-esteem and above all the certainty that your body in no way reflects the person that you know yourself to be. It's a hell of a life.

What Janet Mock's article points out is that, despite gradual and in some cases dramatic gains for the T element of LGBT, there are still entrenched vested interests in the media, politics and, more sadly, in certain racial and religious demographics which are too ready to condemn, preach hatred and thereby implicitly condone the ongoing violence and prejudice against trans people.

This latest incident is just the tiniest tip of a huge iceberg.

[azamet]

I think of these girls as a girl with a benefit, How many guys have had a gg finger his ass while getting a blow job? A sexy ts with a cock is just a little bigger than a couple fingers! and sometimes the Ts is a lot sexier!

[CaptainPlanet]

I agree. Men who are attracted to transsexuals and not other men shouldn't be labeled as gay by society. This morning when Mister Cee kept saying he wasn't gay, I understood where he was coming from but most people didn't because all they saw was him having a fetish of being sucked off by a guy who likes to dress in women's clothes.

I don't know what it'll take to change the perception of a guy being gay because he's attracted to transsexuals and not men. Maybe time...

His situation is a bit different, being the public knows this is a guy in a wig, and Cee obviously knew the same. Doesn't take long to distinguish between CD and TS unless your intoxicated, especially if there in your car.

[a994]

BY JANET MOCK.


Guess what? Many men are attracted to women, and trans women are amongst these women.
We, as a society, have not created a space for men to openly express their desire to be with trans women. Instead, we shame men who have this desire, from the boyfriends, cheaters and “chasers” to the “trade,” clients, and pornography admirers. We tell men to keep their attraction to trans women secret, to limit it to the internet, frame it as a passing fetish or transaction. In effect, we’re telling trans women that they are only deserving of secret interactions with men, further demeaning and stigmatizing trans women.
I’ve stood witness to many so-called scandals, mostly published on gossip blogs, where passing interactions with trans women spawn hundreds of headlines, particularly for a man with fame and social capital. Thousands of words have been dedicated to analyzing whether such and such famous man is now suspect, merely because he took a photo with a fan who happened to be a trans woman. This questioning has led many well-known men to adamantly defend their heterosexuality and has tarnished the reputation and careers of others. It sounds like silliness on the surface, but often times when gossip blogs are the public’s only exposure to trans women, it spreads misinformation, validates stereotypes and causes irreparable damage.
When a man can be shamed merely for interacting with a trans women – whether it be through a photograph, a sex tape or correspondences — what does this say about how society views trans women? More important, what does this do to trans women?
This pervasive ideology says that trans women are shameful, that trans women are not worthy of being seen and that trans women must remain a secret — invisible and disposable. If a man dares to be seen with a trans woman, he will likely lose social capital so he must adamantly deny, vehemently demean, trash and/or exterminate the woman in question. He must do this to maintain his standing in our patriarchal society. For a man to be associated with a trans women, in effect, is to say that he is no longer a “real” man (as if such a thing exists) because he sleeps with “fake” women (as if such a thing exists).
The comments and conversations surrounding hip-hop DJ Mister Cee’s sex scandal-turned-resignation has been appalling, and has led me to this essay, which isn’t about him soliciting sex from someone he perceived as a trans woman. The Mister Cee “scandal” sheds light on society’s ignorance, similarly exhibited when Chris Brown, Chingy and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson took photos with trans women; similarly exhibited when folks gender-policed Joseline Hernandez to the point where she Tweeted a nude photo to prove her cis-ness; similarly exhibited when Eddie Murphy, LL Cool J and a list of other powerful men were accused of being “caught” seeking trans women.
This anti-trans woman ideology is harmful, misogynistic and pervasive and travels way beyond the comments section of gossip blogs, and as Sylvia Rivera once said, “I will no longer put up with this shit.”
I am a trans woman. My sisters are trans women. We are not secrets. We are not shameful. We are worthy of respect, desire, and love. As there are many kinds of women, there are many kinds of men, and many men desire many kinds of women, trans women are amongst these women. And let’s be clear: Trans women are women.
The shame that society attaches to these men, specifically attacking their sexuality and shaming their attraction, directly affects trans women. It affects the way we look at ourselves. It amplifies our body-image issues, our self-esteem, our sense of possibility, of daring for greatness, of aiming for something or somewhere greater. If a young trans woman believes that the only way she can share intimate space with a man is through secret hookups, bootycalls or transaction, she will be led to engage in risky sexual behaviors that make her more vulnerable to criminalization, disease and violence; she will be led to coddle a man who takes out his frustrations about his sexuality on her with his fists; she will be led to question whether she’s worthy enough to protect herself with a condom when a man tells her he loves her; she will be led to believe that she is not worthy of being seen, that being seen heightens her risk of violence therefore she must hide who she is at all costs in order to survive.
When I was a girl finding myself, I was met with similar questions and believed I would never find someone to love me. I had learned that I was unworthy and undeserving, and it took me years to release myself from the shame and stigma society had forced upon me as a young woman. A man’s desire for my body, my brain, my brilliance and my existence is not a laughing matter because I am not a joke.
When I met my boyfriend Aaron and disclosed that I am trans, he did not question his sexuality. He recognized me as a woman, and my being trans did not negate my womanhood. My relationship with Aaron is a rarity, though. Don’t get me wrong, I see our loving partnership as a blessing, but not in the same way others view it. Our relationship is marveled at largely because most people do not believe that a man like Aaron should have to “compromise” his heteronormative social standing by being with a trans woman or a woman who is not “real.”
It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her, who has an unabashed desire to be seen with her, who proudly stands beside her — despite the stigma and other people’s curiosities and inappropriate questions. Those questions regarding Aaron’s sexuality are constant and fraught with assumptions that this essay can’t begin to unpack, and for a man less secure it can be difficult navigating these questions, especially if you also perceive the women you’re attracted to as shameful, as less-than-human objects you must keep secret at all costs.
It’s important that we begin truly accepting trans women as who they are, women. We are not objects to have secret sex with, to discard and to laugh at on the radio or the gossip blogosphere. We are worthy of being seen and are not dirty or shameful. Until we begin checking how we delegitimize the identities, bodies and existence of trans women and stigmatize the men who yearn to be with us, we will continue to marginalize our sisters, pushing them further into socially-sanctioned invisibility, left in the dark to fend for themselves with men who are don’t have the space to explore, define and embrace their attraction to various women.

Beautiful, informative article. Now we as a society and as individuals need to do a better job at treating ALL women (regardless of their genitalia) as people. Patriarchy dies hard, unfortunately.

[MacShreach]

I think a lot of men do not understand the huge privileges they have just by being men and cisgendered at that. Transwomen have even less privileges than ciswomen; as they say in Thailand, men first, women second, kathoey (trans)...way down there. And that is in a culture that tolerates transsex.

Cisgendered people never have to worry about going to a public convenience or a shop changing room, marked for their gender, and being thrown out for being in the wrong one. Nobody shouts 'hey fucking guy' when they walk down the street, We don't get held up at airports or refused bank loans because the gender on our documents doesn't fit our appearance, and then of course there's those lovely chaps the guardians of law and order, who routinely abuse transwomen in particular.

Yes, we all have to put up with jerks, but transfolk get ALL the shit that the rest of us only get a part of.

I think, particularly for a woman who has lived as a man before transitioning, and thus had possession of all the male cisgender heteronormative privilege, the whole atmosphere is incredibly undermining and hostile. Even girls living in deep stealth are not immune.

I hate it when guys on here start giving out about what a girl has done to her look, or this or that or oh my lord SRS...You know they have enough to deal with.

Some people think transsex is increasing; I don't. I think it only appears to be increasing. I think where it is suppressed, it goes underground, and where it is supported, it reaches a level and stabilises. Most estimates put this around 1-2%.

So if we love transwomen we have to support them; (and we also have to forgive when they cut loose with their tongues because they've just had it this week).

[a994]

I do think the context of this case is important, because I think the macho ethos of the hip-hop scene and its emphasis on masculinity is not at all helpful to transwomen, or in fact any form of non-hetero-normative expression of gender or sexuality. Like all these expressions of patriarchy, men are sucked in, yet often don't fit.

The fact is that in a lifetime of working in the creative spheres, I have never yet met an artist who was completely 100% straight (including me) simply because creation itself is a feminine function. So art forms that promote really extreme masculinity are a bit like an oxymoron.


re: the first paragraph above: that's one reason why I've never been that big of a hip-hop fan, even in its early '90s heyday of consciousness rap (very little of which even addressed this subject, and the few who did speak publicly about this, like P.M. Dawn, were criticized and even attacked physically for it--all other rappers either openly approving or silent about it)

The second paragraph raises this question: could it be that such art forms are in themselves at least partly a method of justifying participation in the arts in general for men who perhaps believe at some level that "art/music/poetry/etc. is for women and sissies?"

[a994]

Yes, of course society shames men interested in transsexuals because they are ignorant...but ts women shame them too who aren't!

I just don't see how any ts girl calls a man interested in them a fag it's hypocritical. He is attracted to you so are you a FAG?

TS girls have issue if the guys desires another transsexual. If he has dated or slept with another transsexual many hate that too. They need to get over that..women have. It's so silly to me. Most likely if one hot transsexual is good enough another one will be too!

To me those are the transsexuals that need a man to fill their ego. They need that delusion to feel more feminine. That oh he only finds me attractive. I'm special and so on.

Heavenlysin and I were discussing this the other day at dinner. Transsexuals are just too hard on the men interested in us. We also discussed how men who date transsexuals will also be mentally abusive when they are feeling insecure and pick out your flaws on purpose to hurt you. So it's a double edged sword many times..both insecure where they are..so they disrespect one another to bring themselves up.

I just think the shaming needs to stop in general!

Well known tranny chasers are called fags a lot of times cause they had sex with so many and the tgirl feels burnt/used.

If a guy is a bottom he is called a fag by a trans-women.

The list goes on.


Good post Kelly. I've also wondered about the mental stability of those trans-women who call the very men interested in them "queers" and that sort of thing. It certainly shows that these women think very lowly of themselves and of their sisters (after all, if they consider the men who like them to be nothing more than gay men--regardless of sexual practices and genital attraction--then such women evidently consider themselves and their sisters to also be men), aside from running off the very men who might be the loves of their lives--and of course, some men are more serious and willing to commit than others are.

[a994]

I think a lot of men do not understand the huge privileges they have just by being men and cisgendered at that. Transwomen have even less privileges than ciswomen; as they say in Thailand, men first, women second, kathoey (trans)...way down there. And that is in a culture that tolerates transsex.

Cisgendered people never have to worry about going to a public convenience or a shop changing room, marked for their gender, and being thrown out for being in the wrong one. Nobody shouts 'hey fucking guy' when they walk down the street, We don't get held up at airports or refused bank loans because the gender on our documents doesn't fit our appearance, and then of course there's those lovely chaps the guardians of law and order, who routinely abuse transwomen in particular.

Yes, we all have to put up with jerks, but transfolk get ALL the shit that the rest of us only get a part of.

I think, particularly for a woman who has lived as a man before transitioning, and thus had possession of all the male cisgender heteronormative privilege, the whole atmosphere is incredibly undermining and hostile. Even girls living in deep stealth are not immune.

I hate it when guys on here start giving out about what a girl has done to her look, or this or that or oh my lord SRS...You know they have enough to deal with.

Some people think transsex is increasing; I don't. I think it only appears to be increasing. I think where it is suppressed, it goes underground, and where it is supported, it reaches a level and stabilises. Most estimates put this around 1-2%.

So if we love transwomen we have to support them; (and we also have to forgive when they cut loose with their tongues because they've just had it this week).


Good point. Heck, gay men don't catch nearly the garbage that we men who like transwomen do. Of course even so we have it easy compared to transwomen themselves.

[MacShreach]

re: the first paragraph above: that's one reason why I've never been that big of a hip-hop fan, even in its early '90s heyday of consciousness rap (very little of which even addressed this subject, and the few who did speak publicly about this, like P.M. Dawn, were criticized and even attacked physically for it--all other rappers either openly approving or silent about it)

The second paragraph raises this question: could it be that such art forms are in themselves at least partly a method of justifying participation in the arts in general for men who perhaps believe at some level that "art/music/poetry/etc. is for women and sissies?"

Mmmm I need a couple of coffees on that. My gut, though, is this: Creation is at least metaphysically feminine; that is why the very masculine Jahweh's power of creation, the shekina, is both feminine and female. This of course derives from a much older understanding of the Earth as the source of all creation, and that this was a feminine power: The Goddess.

We are all both female and male, at least at some level, and male artists tap into that.

The writer Lawrence Durrell somewhere referred to the feeling of being 'big with book' and drew a direct parallel with the female experience of pregnancy. Durrell is unquestionably an influence on me and I agree with him on this.

There are very macho areas of the arts, especially the popular ones; however, they usually have a flip-side that contradicts this. Blues and Rock music have very macho sides, but then, Little Richard. And Glam Rock. The New York Dolls--sounded hardrock and masculine, looked like cds.

Hip-hop seems to have taken macho even further but it comes from an urban environment that is unique to the US. (That is probably why French rap is so different.) That environment does seem to place an even greater emphasis on the outward signs of masculinity, and definitely appears to be very aggressive towards anyone who transgresses its cultural mores. However I have not made in-depth study of hip-hop culture so I am going to be honest about that and say these are my impressions only.

Nonetheless, in the end, all art is a mirror of the broader culture that sustains it. Art is a reflective practice, and whether they recognise it or not, artists are like sounding-boards. Whatever we may say, we don't actually get to choose; the art just comes out.

That tends to suggest to me that it's not so much that some male artists choose to enter fields which are very macho, but that this is a quality of the underlying culture that they are already a part of. Now, it may well be that this culture is very appealing to certain types of men (in this case those who might wish to publicly flaunt their masculinity), so the two are closely related: artists are attracted to the macho quality of the culture and reinforce that by producing more conforming art.

[nysprod]

Nonetheless, in the end, all art is a mirror of the broader culture that sustains it. Art is a reflective practice,



An interesting thought but I actually think it's just the opposite...artists create the paradigm (or template) for society to follow, and then inevitably come others who are reflecting that.

I.e. the Beatles arrive with long hair, society in general falls in love with them, and the emulators quickly follow.

[MacShreach]

An interesting thought but I actually think it's just the opposite...artists create the paradigm (or template) for society to follow, and then inevitably come others who are reflecting that.

I.e. the Beatles arrive with long hair, society in general falls in love with them, and the emulators quickly follow.


Oh do shut the fuck up about things you know absolutely NOTHING about. I am not going to engage your moronic and brainless chatter. Instead I counsel you to read, amongst other things.Burckhardt's 'Renaissance' and Paglia's 'Sexual Personae'; then, sign yourself up for some study and ONCE YOU HAVE done that, for say six years or so, come back and we can discuss the concept of 'art follows culture' as so well expressed by these two writers.

In any case I thought you said you were going to shut up after the last time you got your ass whipped? Cause you got another one on the way, numbnuts.

[nysprod]

Oh do shut the fuck up about things you know absolutely NOTHING about. I am not going to engage your moronic and brainless chatter. Instead I counsel you to read, amongst other things.Burckhardt's 'Renaissance' and Paglia's 'Sexual Personae'; then, sign yourself up for some study and ONCE YOU HAVE done that, for say six years or so, come back and we can discuss the concept of 'art follows culture' as so well expressed by these two writers.

In any case I thought you said you were going to shut up after the last time you got your ass whipped? Cause you got another one on the way, numbnuts.

You really are utterly demented...that's clear now.

[MacShreach]

you think

[Ben in LA]

Video with Laverne Cox and Janet Mock on the subject...

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/09/laverne_cox_and_janet_mock_talk_mister_cee.html

[nysprod]

Excellent video, thanks for posting it.