LGBT lost in TRANSlation? [Archive] - HungAngels - Guide to TGirls and Transsexuals

LilyRox

07-23-2013, 10:04 AM

Just want to talk about LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender). I often look up stuff a lot and I found with a lot of sites that use LGBT often use this term just to describe the gay/lesbian community.

I don't think I'll ever understand. I don't even consider myself a part of the gay/lesbian community. Anyways sometimes they'll use LGBT without any mention of the transgender community at all, with just referring to gay/lesbian people.

I also don't get the bisexual part of the LGBT. I NEVER hear any mention of bisexual people when people use this term. I feel like it's just an add on to bulk up the term.

I feel like they just kind of grouped transgender into the LGB category to group a minority. I never felt correlated with gay/lesbian people.

I mean it's just an okay term if you're actually talking about everyone in the group, but so many times I'll see it used to talk about just transgender people or just gay/lesbian people. Bisexual doesn't even seem like part of it, the way people talk about it.

What do you guys think about it? I feel all these groups are so far a part that to actually talk about every single one is so rare there isn't even a need for the LGBT acronym. The other main issue I have is the terms lesbian, gay, and bisexual are sexual orientations, transgender isn't.

Maybe I just think about things too much.

Ananke

07-25-2013, 12:05 AM

Another good example of the need of people to put everyone in categories!

nysprod

07-25-2013, 12:20 AM

If you think that's rough, try being a member of the chaser community...

trish

07-25-2013, 12:27 AM

LGBT is a community that has some political clout. If they're feeling inclusive enough to include you, my advise is: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

fivekatz

07-25-2013, 02:17 AM

BellaBellucci

07-25-2013, 02:52 AM

LGBT is a community that has some political clout. If they're feeling inclusive enough to include you, my advise is: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

They're usually not, though. Trans people are pavement for the busses and bi-sexuals are considered 'confused.' The LGBT community has never done a thing for me or others like me who are neither G nor L.

So. MANY. ACRONYMS! And they're all worthless.

~BB~

robertlouis

07-25-2013, 03:08 AM

There is power in numbers and each group is has the common issue of being singled out for their sexual preferences.

How well LGBT serves either bi's or transexuals is a fair question. Just the same there is IMO a binding knot of discrimination based completely on sexual orientation .

There are well-established groups of gay men and lesbian women who are openly and actively hostile to trans people.

Just for once there's genuine irony when previously persecuted minorities start to stigmatise and attack other groups.

But then that's basically the history of every religion too.

maddygirl

07-25-2013, 03:21 AM

Remy757Photog

07-25-2013, 03:34 AM

While I agree, Trans has completely different issues and concerns that in general have little in common with Gay/Lesbian/Bi, it would be foolhardy to ignore the causes that have been fought by the LGBT organizations on behalf of Trans people. We didn't get equal employment rights etc, just on the basis of companies wanting to do whats right for trans people, LGBT and Trans organizations pushed those causes on our behalf. Now, if you choose not to work regular 9-5 jobs (like myself, love self employment lol) and therefore don't personally see any benefit from that, that is one owns personal choice.

Here in Va, it is the LGBT center that provides the quick and easy process of getting a F gender marker for the DMV to put on your State ID/Driver License etc. A year ago, pre op trans women couldn't get a F on their ID at all, so I'm totally thankfully for anyone that helps push our cause even if they (I too admit) don't push our cause as equally as Gay/Lesbian, something is better than nothing.

fivekatz

07-25-2013, 10:05 AM

Being transsexual has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation.Maybe my language is off or ignorant of the correct term but how could the fact that a person wants to be the opposite sex as they are born not be as matter of orientation. A born genitally girl, who is a boy living in that body. I could think of better phrase that orientation.

It is interesting times are coming because this the next great civil rights front and it crosses every on societies "lines". These people that the many want deny rights and the same happiness they enjoy in the US are going be shocked to find that this movement will have members from all religions, races and economic classes as well.

Quiet Reflections

07-25-2013, 10:44 AM

but how could the fact that a person wants to be the opposite sex as they are born not be as matter of orientation.
Because it doesn't matter if you are mtf or ftm the transition process has no bearing on what sex you are attracted to. Sexual orientation is something you are born with and has nothing to do with the horrible medical condition of being trapped in the wrong body.

Ms.Stepford

07-25-2013, 03:01 PM

LGBT is a community that has some political clout. If they're feeling inclusive enough to include you, my advise is: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Common human decency should never be a gift.

More often than not it's actually cis hetero people who are our best allies, anyway.

sensuelle

07-25-2013, 04:19 PM

nysprod

07-25-2013, 04:42 PM

Common human decency should never be a gift.

More often than not it's actually cis hetero people who are our best allies, anyway.

I have to agree the most nasties comments and hostile behevior that i have encounterd has not come from hetero males but from gay males.And while some in the lgbt organisations do care for our rights most of them see us as freaks that harm their "cause".

There always are lovers and haters...various Pride days around NYC included transgenders within the celebrations, and I'm sure there's no need to mention that many transgender murders are committed by hetero males.

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 04:44 PM

Common human decency should never be a gift.

More often than not it's actually cis hetero people who are our best allies, anyway.

This is a serious question and not meant as snark, although it will sound that way.

So... do you think this may have something to do with the fact that the TG (included here for "popular" understanding of equal terms with "TS") /TS community (generally) has a rampant hatred of and towards the CD/TV community, demonstrating the very (and actual) bigotry that they condemn in others? The hypocrisy is stunning and makes a mockery of their argument for equal treatment.

sensuelle

07-25-2013, 04:49 PM

There always are lovers and haters...various Pride days around NYC included transgenders within the celebrations, and I'm sure there's no need to mention that many transgender murders are committed by hetero males.

No of course not not all gay man are like that i am just saying for a group that always complains about discrimation and stuff you would expect a little more understanding and respect.BTW where i am from i never heard of a murder of ts out of hate(there was one a couple of years before but that was about a relationship she was in)so i was just refering about how it was over here.

runningdownthatdream

07-25-2013, 05:03 PM

sensuelle

07-25-2013, 05:13 PM

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 06:05 PM

I would say that the problem is more that people get grouped into groups where they dont belong.gay/lesbians/bi is about who you are atracted to completly different from someone that is a ts who is born in the wrong body which is about their own gender and then a tv/cd is again something completly different from both of the former because it is more of a fetish.

You are incorrect, and here is why.

You are making a distinction between "TS" and "Lesbian, Gay, and Bi". The distinction you see is that LGB is a sexual orientation ONLY. This is a misunderstanding of the terms... it is a VERY fine point, but one that is worth understanding completely because it ultimately strengthens your argument if you understand it, and use it to argue for HUMANITY... not behavior.

Try this. Go up to a person (somewhat educated) who identifies as LGB (and truly is). Tell that person that they are LGB simply because of a sexual orientation, that is, preference (orientation denotes it can be changed - and is therefore ultimately, a preference). There is a GUT reaction that this is incorrect, and most in the community, while maybe not being able to voice it correctly, realize this.

You must realize WHY these terms (LGB) exist. They don't exist for the benefit of those who are (LGB). They exist for the benefit for the people who ARE NOT... because they are labels... FOR PEOPLE... to describe BEHAVIOR. That is what should be at the crux of every argument for equality. Labels are meaningless unless you do, in fact, have some sort of bigotry. What you are arguing against (opposed to LGBT) is BEHAVIOR not humanity. The counter argument should be, "Who cares about behavior (this changes if it is a moral argument - i.e. - religious)? All PEOPLE should be treated equally. Period."

This feeling, promoted by most TS, that LGB is a behavior while TS is a "person" is exactly why the LGB community dislikes the "T". It is a "moral superiority" argument that is self-destructive to pursue.

I have read (literally) thousands of threads, posts, and comments since joining Fetlife (arguably the largest gathering of "academic" TS - and supposedly "most open") about this topic and although there are "pockets" of reason, mostly what you see is bigotry expressed by the TS community... to ANYONE who is not part of it... gay, straight, CD/TV, etc. etc.

Ms.Stepford

07-25-2013, 06:20 PM

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 06:34 PM

I suppose if you are looking for it, you can find it.

In answer to your original question, no. I don't think that there's any correlation there, for this reason: none of the LGB give a shit about CD/TS relations enough to recognize that "hypocrisy."

Mmmm... also incorrect IMO.

I think the LGB community does care about CD/TS relations for this reason. They understand that most people DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE, and therefore the bickering and infighting should NOT be highlighted... in fact, best to ignore until it is solved.

Ask the average person off the street, "What is the difference between a Crossdresser, a Transvestite, a Transgendered person, and a Transsexual? Or, are they all the same thing?" I would venture a guess that the majority would not be able to accurately distinguish and most would, in fact, say - "I think they're all the same thing."

The LGB communities have made strides, why? Because they largely act as a cohesive, unified community with similar goals. The "T" community, IMO, has fractured ITSELF off of this unity with their own infighting and bigotry.

When you go to a bank asking for a loan but you don't have your own finances in order; carrying massive amounts of debt, not knowing how to balance a checkbook, budget, etc... The answer you're going to get from the bank is... "Ummm... get your shit together. Then come back and ask for help." This is where the "T" community finds itself at this point.

Ms.Stepford

07-25-2013, 06:46 PM

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 06:53 PM

I don't need a loan. I've been living in the cracks for years just fine.

Yes. I fully understand the metaphor.

And really, no, LGB people are just as ignorant as cis-hets. If I didn't have to hustle up vacation money tonight, I could get an hour of footage to prove it.

The majority of gay men and lesbians come across just as ignorant as the cis-hetero population when they talk about trans people.

Fair enough... and partially my point (I... this... I... that). They don't care because the "Trans" community is a clown-show of bickering, infighting, and outright hypocrisy. They (LGB) are making their strides... why would they care about a community that basically (as you've demonstrated) is hostile towards them?

The fact is, at some point, someone needs to make the first step if the TS community is to make any sort of forward progress in equality and acceptance. That is my point. Neither is willing to do so, and at this point, I can empathize more with the LGB point of view simply because the TS view is mired down with a superiority complex. At some point, they've got to say, "Hey, if you're not for us, then we're not for you either. Have fun fighting for yourselves."

Ms.Stepford

07-25-2013, 07:05 PM

I'm not hostile toward them at all. Pointing out ignorance is not the same as hostility.

I would rather that no cis person speak on my behalf.

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 07:09 PM

I'm not hostile toward them at all. Pointing out ignorance is not the same as hostility.

I would rather that no cis person speak on my behalf.

Again, fair enough. I can't judge your own intentions... just what has been written (and also I have read many, many of your postings on Fetlife) here... which comes across as "hostile". That is just my reading of it.

You're independent... I get it. If everyone is independent though, how does anything ever get done? Bundles...sticks... that thing...? United/stand... divided/fall... that thing...? No bearing at all?

Remy757Photog

07-25-2013, 07:19 PM

This is a serious question and not meant as snark, although it will sound that way.

So... do you think this may have something to do with the fact that the TG (included here for "popular" understanding of equal terms with "TS") /TS community (generally) has a rampant hatred of and towards the CD/TV community, demonstrating the very (and actual) bigotry that they condemn in others? The hypocrisy is stunning and makes a mockery of their argument for equal treatment.

Very good point. Though I don't really think it is hatred of/toward cd/tv so much as the hatred of/toward mainstream society that lumps transsexuals with cd/tv, as if we are all one and the same. I have more than a few associates that are cd, and if I was to go out with them and someone called me a cd I would be offended, though to be clear, I'm not one to act out and cause scenes so that person wouldn't even know I was offended. It's nothing personally against any cd, just that with shows like Rupaul Drag Race etc they tend to see more CD than actual Transsexuals and lump us all together. While I do agree that all people should fight for equal rights of all other groups of people, the struggles of being transsexual and the rights we fight for are not exactly the same as CD/TV/Gay/Bi/Les.

LilyRox

07-25-2013, 07:29 PM

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 07:41 PM

Very good point. Though I don't really think it is hatred of/toward cd/tv so much as the hatred of/toward mainstream society that lumps transsexuals with cd/tv, as if we are all one and the same. I have more than a few associates that are cd, and if I was to go out with them and someone called me a cd I would be offended, though to be clear, I'm not one to act out and cause scenes so that person wouldn't even know I was offended. It's nothing personally against any cd, just that with shows like Rupaul Drag Race etc they tend to see more CD than actual Transsexuals and lump us all together. While I do agree that all people should fight for equal rights of all other groups of people, the struggles of being transsexual and the rights we fight for are not exactly the same as CD/TV/Gay/Bi/Les.

I would say that I agree with you... but...

When you've read as many comments on as many posts on as many threads in as many groups as I have... I WISH I could agree with you... but I simply can't given the preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

Read what I have read and you DEFINITELY get that there is HATRED towards the CD/TV community by the TS community. It isn't even debatable. It is not posed as "we dislike the general public for not being educated" it is posed as "We hate (and I use that word on purpose) the CD/TV community because THEY make US look bad."

Try this. Get a picture of some old, unattractive lady. Create a profile on Fetlife and call yourself a "CD/TV". Go into a "Ask a Trans Person a Question" on Fetlife. Give your two cents on a serious topic of discussion. See what kind of reaction you get. It will surprise you, the actual hatred that is expressed towards you JUST FOR DARING TO DO THAT.

I disagree with the premise that the struggles and rights for all individuals are not the same. Saying otherwise implies bigotry where there should be none... It implies that you are against a person because of BEHAVIOR, and that should exclude them from the "struggle". This line of reasoning is the exact same line of reasoning that opponents to the LGBT community use, and that is the hypocrisy that exists.

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 07:43 PM

Well I think the problem is when the average cis hears the word "transsexual" the first thing that comes to their mind is a 40 year old crossdresser or something. For some reason a lot of cis's can't fathom the possibility that the girl they are standing in line next to waiting to buy groceries has a cock. Weird fetishes do seem to cloud the spectrum for the word "transgender".

The problem is that we just keep on making up terms for people. That is the problem. We've had this conversation (here on HA) before but probably 3/4 of the people reading your post don't even know what you're talking about when you say "cis".

That isn't their fault... it is OURS... for labeling ourselves with silly labels because some person, some where felt left out of the party.

Ms.Stepford

07-25-2013, 07:48 PM

Again, fair enough. I can't judge your own intentions... just what has been written (and also I have read many, many of your postings on Fetlife) here... which comes across as "hostile". That is just my reading of it.

You're independent... I get it. If everyone is independent though, how does anything ever get done? Bundles...sticks... that thing...? United/stand... divided/fall... that thing...? No bearing at all?

Oh yeah... my Fet postings can be acerbic, for sure, but I've rescinded a few of those diatribes upon realizing I was being a dick.

Self-reliant team players are where it's at, I think.

GroobyKrissy

07-25-2013, 07:53 PM

Oh yeah... my Fet postings can be acerbic, for sure, but I've rescinded a few of those diatribes upon realizing I was being a dick.

Self-reliant team players are where it's at, I think.

I agree. However, I would put this out there...

Self-reliance doesn't necessarily equal independence.

You can be self-reliant and still help others work towards a common goal of equality and acceptance.

Anyway, good discussion. I've got to run out to a meeting but thanks.

Ms.Stepford

07-25-2013, 08:07 PM

Cheers! And trust me, I scare myself with how I sound like Ayn Rand sometimes too...

LilyRox

07-25-2013, 08:19 PM

Read what I have read and you DEFINITELY get that there is HATRED towards the CD/TV community by the TS community. It isn't even debatable. It is not posed as "we dislike the general public for not being educated" it is posed as "We hate (and I use that word on purpose) the CD/TV community because THEY make US look bad."

Try this. Get a picture of some old, unattractive lady. Create a profile on Fetlife and call yourself a "CD/TV". Go into a "Ask a Trans Person a Question" on Fetlife. Give your two cents on a serious topic of discussion. See what kind of reaction you get. It will surprise you, the actual hatred that is expressed towards you JUST FOR DARING TO DO THAT.

I disagree with the premise that the struggles and rights for all individuals are not the same. Saying otherwise implies bigotry where there should be none... It implies that you are against a person because of BEHAVIOR, and that should exclude them from the "struggle". This line of reasoning is the exact same line of reasoning that opponents to the LGBT community use, and that is the hypocrisy that exists.

Yeah. I'll admit I am prejudice against drag queens. I don't know why, but I think they're loud, annoying, obnoxious, and not even funny. I don't get the concept of dressing up like a clown and making a mockery of an entire community. They smear their lipstick, they cake their face. It looks ridiculous, and stupid. It could be because I don't drink. Maybe you have to be shit faced to get the humor (if there is any). Personally, I find their humor quite offensive.

As far as CD's go. I'll never understand the fetish of dressing up. I wear panties everyday and don't get a hard on.

nysprod

07-25-2013, 08:23 PM

Very educational, this thread...

sensuelle

07-25-2013, 10:28 PM

You are incorrect, and here is why.

You are making a distinction between "TS" and "Lesbian, Gay, and Bi". The distinction you see is that LGB is a sexual orientation ONLY. This is a misunderstanding of the terms... it is a VERY fine point, but one that is worth understanding completely because it ultimately strengthens your argument if you understand it, and use it to argue for HUMANITY... not behavior.

Try this. Go up to a person (somewhat educated) who identifies as LGB (and truly is). Tell that person that they are LGB simply because of a sexual orientation, that is, preference (orientation denotes it can be changed - and is therefore ultimately, a preference). There is a GUT reaction that this is incorrect, and most in the community, while maybe not being able to voice it correctly, realize this.

You must realize WHY these terms (LGB) exist. They don't exist for the benefit of those who are (LGB). They exist for the benefit for the people who ARE NOT... because they are labels... FOR PEOPLE... to describe BEHAVIOR. That is what should be at the crux of every argument for equality. Labels are meaningless unless you do, in fact, have some sort of bigotry. What you are arguing against (opposed to LGBT) is BEHAVIOR not humanity. The counter argument should be, "Who cares about behavior (this changes if it is a moral argument - i.e. - religious)? All PEOPLE should be treated equally. Period."

This feeling, promoted by most TS, that LGB is a behavior while TS is a "person" is exactly why the LGB community dislikes the "T". It is a "moral superiority" argument that is self-destructive to pursue.

I have read (literally) thousands of threads, posts, and comments since joining Fetlife (arguably the largest gathering of "academic" TS - and supposedly "most open") about this topic and although there are "pockets" of reason, mostly what you see is bigotry expressed by the TS community... to ANYONE who is not part of it... gay, straight, CD/TV, etc. etc.

First of all i never said that beeing LGBis a behavior that can be changed because i firmly believe that some is a born that way the same way as a transgenderd person is.And i dont feel that i am in any way superior to someone that is lgb i am just saying that it is completly different thing from beeing transgender and i my view a transgender woman that is straight doesnt belong in the catagory but a transgender that indentifies as bi or lesbian does.And for you other point in your other post about that the lgb community does care about T rights have a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Non-Discrimination_Act they will drop as like a brik if they dont need us, apperntly it is oke to discrimnate against T who are looking for a job.

maddygirl

07-25-2013, 10:37 PM

Maybe my language is off or ignorant of the correct term but how could the fact that a person wants to be the opposite sex as they are born not be as matter of orientation. A born genitally girl, who is a boy living in that body. I could think of better phrase that orientation.

It is interesting times are coming because this the next great civil rights front and it crosses every on societies "lines". These people that the many want deny rights and the same happiness they enjoy in the US are going be shocked to find that this movement will have members from all religions, races and economic classes as well.
Sexual orientation is about who you attracted to...(straight, bisexual, gay)... all of which have nothing to do with being physically male and mentally female. I don't see the correlation.

BellaBellucci

07-25-2013, 11:39 PM

BellaBellucci

07-25-2013, 11:46 PM

the TG (included here for "popular" understanding of equal terms with "TS") /TS community (generally) has a rampant hatred of and towards the CD/TV community, demonstrating the very (and actual) bigotry that they condemn in others? The hypocrisy is stunning and makes a mockery of their argument for equal treatment.

If you're a CD/TV and you identify as a MALE, that's fine with me. Maybe we just don't like it when they demand that they are transsexual (or worse: women) when in reality, it's not an identity; it's merely a fantasy.

*paints the soles of all her heels red*

I mean, what equal rights do they need? The ability to use the ladies room? Hell, I'm transsexual and even *I* think it's freaky and would rather they use the mens' room. :rolleyes:

~BB~

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 12:11 AM

Yeah there seems to be 3 main groups of genders: male, female, and the 3rd sex/transgender.

The problem with the word transgender is that everything but transsexuals are actual a gender.

ex) Crossdressers, do it purely as an fetish. Not a state of self being.

Drag queens, do it for entertainment to portray a character.

Transvestites do it purely for cash, etc.

In my opinion transgender isn't a gender at all. Transsexual is.

If it is it would mean crossdresser's live with two genders. Their male gender and their crossdresser gender. It just really doesn't make sense how a fetish gets grouped as a gender.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 12:13 AM

I have noticed that some transsexuals believe it's offensive for those who are not transsexuals to discuss any of their issues. It is generally understood that experience does imbue one with special insight, but that shouldn't mean that only an in-group can give an informed opinion. I'm not saying this is a universal attitude, but I have encountered it and my sense is that one doesn't improve their odds of achieving equal treatment by telling others that they couldn't possibly understand their experience without living it.

That said, some deference to those who have encountered issues from a first-person perspective is warranted and I'm not saying I don't understand the attitude. I just find it a bit patronizing from time to time:).

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 12:14 AM

As usual, I wholeheartedly agree with the brilliant and insightful Ms. Stepford and think that Krissy is a again being an overly verbose windbag suffering from a severe inferiority complex. As someone who is not TS, it is inappropriate for this person to be speaking on our issues. :geek:

Activist groups need to start fighting for equal rights for ALL, as well as for that which is advantageous to their own cause. It's a fatal flaw in civil rights struggles that they don't.

~BB~

Of course.

And you qualify to judge me as "TS" or not... because? Because I have CHOSEN (I actually have the financial capability to do so) NOT to actually transition at this point in life?

Bella, you're completely mental. I'm not even going to reply to this. One of the few (actually, the only, now that I think about it) that I won't even engage in... not because I'm afraid of your nonsense or because I think you're so intellectually superior but because you're just plain nuts and have clearly and historically shown an indifference to actual reason, logic, or any kind of sane discourse. Guess you're not going to get that big rise out of me you were so hoping for, eh? Have a nice day.

Everyone else, I'll reply to your thoughts later on tonight. Meeting some friends to watch Pacific Rim and then The Wolverine :). Ciao.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 12:17 AM

Of course.

And you qualify to judge me as "TS" or not... because? Because I have CHOSEN (I actually have the financial capability to do so) NOT to actually transition at this point in life?

If you haven't transitioned, then you're not a woman. Your reasoning is irrelevant. Either you do it or you don't. No excuses. This isn't personal.

Bella, you're completely mental. I'm not even going to reply to this. One of the few that I won't even engage in... not because I'm afraid or because I think you're so intellectually superior but because you're just plain nuts. Have a nice day.

Sure you're not, and sure you don't. Thanks for being the one who makes it personal, though. Well done! :lol:

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 12:23 AM

If you haven't transitioned, then you're not a woman.

~BB~
My understanding is that transsexual means that one's biological sex is different from their gender identity. If that's the case, then the amount one has worked on altering their appearance to match physical appearance with gender identification is not determinative. Transsexuals are naturally going to be at different stages of transition, even those who don't feel their circumstances have allowed them to begin that process.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 12:25 AM

My understanding is that transsexual means that one's biological sex is different from their gender identity. If that's the case, then the amount one has worked on altering their appearance to match physical appearance with gender identification is not determinative. Transsexuals are naturally going to be at different stages of transition, even those who don't feel their circumstances have allowed them to begin that process.

Your understanding is false. Identity as a female is required to be transsexual, yes, but consistent expression of that identity is equally important. You're right. It's not about surgeries. It's about people not being Butch one day and Bambi the next.

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 12:31 AM

Your understanding is false. Identity as a female is required to be transsexual, yes, but consistent expression of that identity is equally important. You're right. It's not about surgeries. It's about people not being Butch one day and Bambi the next.

~BB~
My understanding is false? So having a gender identity that does not match biological sex does not make one transsexual? It seems like that's exactly what you're saying and posing as a contradiction.

I think you're confusing identification and expression. You can identify as female without demonstrating it by altering appearance. What you say about butch and bambi might go more to the concept of gender identification than appearance does. If appearance were determinative, then a transsexual would not be a transsexual at the beginning of her transition, only at the end.

nysprod

07-26-2013, 12:33 AM

My understanding is that transsexual means that one's biological sex is different from their gender identity. If that's the case, then the amount one has worked on altering their appearance to match physical appearance with gender identification is not determinative. Transsexuals are naturally going to be at different stages of transition, even those who don't feel their circumstances have allowed them to begin that process.

Well said...I've been reading this thread all day and why Bella felt the need to come on here and attack Krissy, I have no idea.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 12:41 AM

You can identify as female without demonstrating it by altering appearance.

Sure you can. But you can't demand that society accept your self-identification without either physical or legal validation. And again, this isn't about appearance. It's about consistency of identity. As in 'identity crisis.' Ever notice the older 'transitioners' (who are almost invariably CDs intentionally mis-identifying because, like it or not, there is a 'trans hierarchy' - and most people who claim to be on it aren't even trans at all)? Yeah, that's not gender expression. That's a mid-life crisis. Some guys get a Vette. Some call themselves Babette.

A transsexual MUST transition. It's not ambivalent. It's not a choice. It's not glamorous. It's not a game.

why Bella felt the need to come on here and attack Krissy, I have no idea.

Why you felt the need to get involved, I have no idea. You're not trans, either. Mind your own business. #ignore

~BB~

fivekatz

07-26-2013, 12:44 AM

My understanding is false? So having a gender identity that does not match biological sex does not make one transsexual? It seems like that's exactly what you're saying and posing as a contradiction.

I think you're confusing identification and expression. You can identify as female without demonstrating it by altering appearance. What you say about butch and bambi might go more to the concept of gender identification than appearance does. If appearance were determinative, then a transsexual would not be a transsexual at the beginning of her transition, only at the end.My better stated than I had done Bfan!

LGBT have common problems being fully accepted in society while each is a unique group. Funny that some who have gone further with their transition than a TV/CD, take issue with TV/CD. I thought there would be more empathy for people who are looked down on because of how the view themselves and express themselves in identity or sexuality.

LGBT is a big tent and assholes like Rick Santorium don't see any distinction and Rick and his ilk are the enemy not TV's, CDs, Bi's, Gay's or Lesbians. These guys want a smaller government they can start by getting out of everyone's bedroom IMO.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 12:45 AM

Right, but you're saying you think she's insincere about something that is primarily mental/psychological. Almost anyone is vulnerable to that sort of attack mainly because they cannot do anything to disprove it. If anything I think on balance the social pressures make one who has gender dysphoria more likely to conceal her gender identity than one who does not have it play make believe.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 12:48 AM

If anything I think on balance the social pressures make one who has gender dysphoria more likely to conceal her gender identity than one who does not have it play make believe.

Well then, I guess I should have not bothered to actually transition since it's clear I didn't have to. I said I'm female and that's enough, right? 'I'm going to cut my hair and begin a lucrative career in auto mechanics, and maybe hit the gym. I'm going to be so pretty. Tee hee.'

I think you're on the wrong thread. You may be looking for the 'amateur sissy stuff.'

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 12:53 AM

Funny that some who have gone further with their transition than a TV/CD, take issue with TV/CD.

We went farther because we HAD to. Those who don't... didn't. It's just dress-up. I don't understand the cognitive dissonance here. This is simple logic. Either you do it or you don't.

By the way, I identify as a Martian, but since there's no surgery to make it so, I guess you should respect my identity anyway. Of course, the problem with transsexuality is that there IS treatment, and again, it's NOT a choice.

If you guys really don't know the difference between a TS and a TV, or you can't see the difference, then you're probably a closeted gay. That's why I don't date guys who date TV/CD people.

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 12:57 AM

Well then, I guess I should have not bothered to actually transition since it's clear I didn't have to. I said I'm female and that's enough, right? 'I'm going to cut my hair and begin a lucrative career in auto mechanics, and maybe hit the gym. I'm going to be so pretty. Tee hee.'

I think you're on the wrong thread. You may be looking for the 'amateur sissy stuff.'

~BB~
I thought we were having a civil conversation here Bella:).

You're saying that identity must be proven by actions. I'm saying everyone in due course..and that actions are only used as a proxy to help identify thoughts and feelings because the latter are not directly observable.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 01:04 AM

I thought we were having a civil conversation here Bella:).

We are. But I'm frustrated with the guys who intentionally lump CD/TV/TS together because, in reality, they don't need to see the difference. All they want is cock from someone who isn't identifying as a man in the exact moment of contact. Nobody cares who people are beyond that because they're having their fantasy fulfilled and that's good enough for them.

You're saying that identity must be proven by actions. I'm saying everyone in due course..and that actions are only used as a proxy to help identify thoughts and feelings because the latter are not directly observable.

Exactly. A transsexual transitions because she doesn't want to be viewed as a man. We can't take it off at the end of the night and return to a world of male privilege. A TV/CD person wants that male privilege AS WELL AS treatment as a female when they are 'en femme' (yuck!). It's a double-standard and it forces others to change their behaviors, when in reality, if a person really is trans, they'll change their own.

~BB~

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 01:11 AM

I disagree with the premise that the struggles and rights for all individuals are not the same. Saying otherwise implies bigotry where there should be none... It implies that you are against a person because of BEHAVIOR, and that should exclude them from the "struggle". This line of reasoning is the exact same line of reasoning that opponents to the LGBT community use, and that is the hypocrisy that exists.

We shall have to agree to disagree. I don't feel a CD has the same struggle as a transwoman, because when a CD goes for a job they can choose to go as a guy and only dress up and play as CD when it suits them. Transwomen are the way we are 24/7 365, we are not going to be content to only "dress" as women when it is convenient, we are living our lives and taking humungous steps to rectify our gender issues that can leave us ridiculed by both society, friends, and family. Someone who is CD doesn't necessarily have to encounter any of those things and still live a perfectly happy life. CD don't have to take meds and have surgeries to align their physical gender. Sure, CD may have some general similarities when it comes to all groups of civil rights issues, but the transwoman/transman struggle is unique in so many ways that can not be compared to any other group of people.

One CD guy I know is in the Navy, he and is wife are perfectly happy and normal looking folk that go about day to day life fine and dandy. When a local Fet event happens, she dolls him all up and he plays the CD to his heart content in the safety of a welcoming Fet environment. The next day he showers and goes right back to his happy normal guy life until he either plays at home with wife or they do another Fet event. Hardly the struggle any transwoman has had to deal with. Transwomen can't even serve in the military!! lol

broncofan

07-26-2013, 01:17 AM

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 01:23 AM

Yeah. I'll admit I am prejudice against drag queens. I don't know why, but I think they're loud, annoying, obnoxious, and not even funny. I don't get the concept of dressing up like a clown and making a mockery of an entire community. They smear their lipstick, they cake their face. It looks ridiculous, and stupid. It could be because I don't drink. Maybe you have to be shit faced to get the humor (if there is any). Personally, I find their humor quite offensive.

As far as CD's go. I'll never understand the fetish of dressing up. I wear panties everyday and don't get a hard on.

Well, drag queens, the looks, performances, personalities, are a unique bunch and while it may not be my cup of tea personally I can appreciate what they do (drag performances) to a certain extent. Now, do I want to sit for hours and watch, no, but I understand that they do put work into it and is basically what makes them happy so to each their own. Some people may not get that I like to play vid games and drink as my personal idea of fun either. However; on the same token, I don't want to be called a drag queen, because some random person doesn't understand the difference between trans and drag queens though they can sometimes be interchangeable. I came up with the older girls (when I started my transition) that are transsexuals but did the exaggerated make up (not the lipstick smearing mind you) and drag performance, it didn't make them any less transsexual that while on stage they pretty much looked like the typical drag queen. Just their way of passing time and getting their life for a few hours.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 01:26 AM

We shall have to agree to disagree. I don't feel a CD has the same struggle as a transwoman, because when a CD goes for a job they can choose to go as a guy and only dress up and play as CD when it suits them.

A friend had this problem. She'd been transitioned everywhere but work, but got laid off. When she went looking for jobs, not one of her female resumes got a response, but in desperation, she sent one out in her male name and not only got the interview, but the job. She has since transitioned on that job.

I myself, despite having been a small business owner for 7 years and currently earning a 3.8 GPA in a business program, have had very little luck finding corporate employment. I hope nobody thinks that sexism doesn't still exist, because believe you me, it does. The other thing working against me? I'm a mom. Oh no! Sacrilege! There's no WAY I could EVER be committed to my job! :lol:

Patriarchal bastards. Oh, and fuck Tom Leykis with a big, fat transvestite cock.

~BB~

sensuelle

07-26-2013, 01:29 AM

But I haven't stated my preference at all. If you think I'm not making a distinction I assure you it has nothing to do with my libido.

Don't transsexuals make their transitions at different points in their life? Indeed someone who has decided to transition may be fighting patriarchy, transphobia, and many other prejudices and in return they are getting to express their gender identity. Others who have not may have decided that they are not ready to for a number of personal reasons.

I think you're using too much of a behavioral model. You are saying people only have preferences (or an identification) if they act on it.

Yes you right that transsexsual are at different stage of transition in their life but there is one big difference between a ts and a tv/cd, a ts feels that she is a woman and a tv doesnt it is just a guy that likes/gets excited or get payed to dress up i dont know why it is so hard for some here to understand that!

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 01:31 AM

Don't transsexuals make their transitions at different points in their life? Indeed someone who has decided to transition may be fighting patriarchy, transphobia, and many other prejudices and in return they are getting to express their gender identity.

That's hysterical! Please, oh please, tell me another one! I'm cracking up over here! :lol:

Probably 95% of girls who transition (and perhaps 99% of porn stars) are the worst misogynists the world has ever known. They literally see becoming female as the ultimate expression of submission, not gender identity! :lol:

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 01:42 AM

Yes you right that transsexsual are at different stage of transition in their life but there is one big difference between a ts and a tv/cd, a ts feels that she is a woman and a tv doesnt it is just a guy that likes/gets excited or get payed to dress up i dont know why it is so hard for some here to understand that!
As you said, a ts feels that she is a woman, and someone who is not ts does not. That's exactly the definition I used. It's just a matter of whether you can determine what someone feels simply based on life choices when you don't know in each case what the countervailing factors are that inform a decision.

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 01:43 AM

And you qualify to judge me as "TS" or not... because? Because I have CHOSEN (I actually have the financial capability to do so) NOT to actually transition at this point in life?

First, I want to say that I am not trying to be rude or in any way mean. I actually thought you identified as CD, based on previous statements I saw a couple years ago. I even thought your site was marketed as CD, though I admit I haven't actually gone and looked at it in a very long time. If I may ask, and again, this is in no way to support whatever Bella is getting at, I just would like to know where you stand on the matter. Why do you choose to not transition?

broncofan

07-26-2013, 01:44 AM

That's hysterical! Please, oh please, tell me another one! I'm cracking up over here! :lol:

Probably 95% of girls who transition (and perhaps 99% of porn stars) are the worst misogynists the world has ever known. They literally see becoming female as the ultimate expression of submission, not gender identity! :lol:

~BB~
When I say fighting patriarchy I mean they are facing adverse consequences of living in a patriarchal society by presenting themselves as female. I'm not saying they are activists or crusaders literally trying to break down barriers.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 01:47 AM

When I say fighting patriarchy I mean they are facing adverse consequences of living in a patriarchal society by presenting themselves as female.

No, they're not. They're facing the adverse consequences of looking and acting ridiculous in an image-based society. And when they're done, they're can take it off. Are you trolling or obtuse?

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 01:51 AM

No, they're not. They're facing the adverse consequences of looking and acting ridiculous in an image-based society. And when they're done, they're can take it off. Are you trolling or being intentionally obtuse?

~BB~
I was talking about ts'. It's exactly the point you were making. You don't believe me.

"Exactly. A transsexual transitions because she doesn't want to be viewed as a man. We can't take it off at the end of the night and return to a world of male privilege."

My point was that by transitioning, transsexuals are fighting forces of patriarchy. Is that not what you were saying by saying that you give up being able to enjoy male privilege? That it's a sacrifice you made.

The funny thing is that you chose a point of agreement to then isolate and argue with. Why try to achieve with attitude and mockery what you're unable to with logic?

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 01:55 AM

The funny thing is that you chose a point of agreement to then isolate and argue with. Why try to achieve with attitude and mockery what you're unable to with logic?

Sorry. I thought you were referring to TV/CD people for some reason. You seem to be defending them. They require no defense. They are what they are, and that's fine. To be honest, I have plenty of CD friends... but they're still not women. #brainburp

~BB~

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 02:09 AM

Funny that some who have gone further with their transition than a TV/CD, take issue with TV/CD. I thought there would be more empathy for people who are looked down on because of how the view themselves and express themselves in identity or sexuality.

That one statement shows an inherent flaw, transsexuals transition from one sex to another, TV/CD do not. TV/CD do not identify as the opposite gender, they dress up for their own determined time and then go back to being Bill, John, Jack. Again, I do feel that everyone deserves empathy, but it's funny listening to a guy dressing in drag one night a month to complain about buying stockings for his monthly outing into the world dressed up. When we transwomen are dealing with All the factors of living the life of a woman 24/7. The guy is like "oh I told the cashier I was buying stockings for my wife" I'm like "dude, is that what you are all excited over sorry I don't relate."

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 02:16 AM

That one statement shows an inherent flaw, transsexuals transition from one sex to another, TV/CD do not. TV/CD do not identify as the opposite gender, they dress up for their own determined time and then go back to being Bill, John, Jack. Again, I do feel that everyone deserves empathy, but it's funny listening to a guy dressing in drag one night a month to complain about buying stockings for his monthly outing into the world dressed up. When we transwomen are dealing with All the factors of living the life of a woman 24/7. The guy is like "oh I told the cashier I was buying stockings for my wife" I'm like "dude, is that what you are all excited over sorry I don't relate."

+1000. :iagree:

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 02:38 AM

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 02:46 AM

You also appear to be defining cd and tv in ways that make the rest of the argument circular.

Wrong. The circular argument comes from them. They may identify as men when they're not 'dressed' (again, eww), but when they are, many identify as female and demand to be treated accordingly as if their master identity was female. Invariably it's not. It's all a fantasy. Clothes don't make the woman, not even temporarily, and I don't want to be forced to cater to someone else's fetish.

~BB~

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 02:50 AM

Wrong. The circular argument comes from them. They may identify as men when they're not 'dressed' (again, eww), but when they are, many identify as female and demand to be treated accordingly as if their master identity was female. Invariably it's not. It's all a fantasy. Clothes don't make the woman, not even temporarily, and I don't want to be forced to cater to someone else's fetish.

~BB~

I agree with you absolutely as regards the difference, Bella, but I don't understand the hostility.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 02:53 AM

Wrong. The circular argument comes from them. They may identify as men when they're not 'dressed' (again, eww), but when they are, many identify as female and demand to be treated accordingly as if their master identity was female. Invariably it's not. It's all a fantasy. Clothes don't make the woman, not even temporarily, and I don't want to be forced to cater to someone else's fetish.

~BB~
Do you believe that before you transitioned you did not have gender dysphoria?

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 02:59 AM

I don't want to be victim to a slalom of signing and co-signing. It's clear we disagree, but it should be somewhat clear what we're disagreeing over. You and Remy seem to believe that one cannot identify unless their actions make clear to the outside world what that identity is. The corollary of this would be that someone doesn't have a belief unless they are willing to reflect that belief in action. It's something B.F Skinner would agree with to be sure.

The examples with TV's and CD's aren't nearly as helpful as they first appear because you are discussing behaviors that may be particular only to the individuals you are discussing. You also appear to be defining cd and tv in ways that make the rest of the argument circular. For instance, if a cd or tv is defined as someone who doesn't identify as female, then you've decided in your own favor by choosing a definition mutually exclusive with transsexual. If they are only individuals who do not dress as female full time then you don't have hermetically sealed categories.

Anyhow, no offense intended:).

Well let's be clear on this, TV and CD do not ever ALWAYS identify as female, they ONLY do so when they are dressed in female clothes. If you walked up to John that is a CD while he is at work and asked him if he is a female he would say 'No' and he would also use the mens bathroom. Why, because he is a male. There is no desire whatsoever, to have his gender markers changed on his ID's, to live the life of a transsexual woman, to have GRS, etc. TV/CD only identify as female when dolled up, I on the other hand can get out of bed, walk over to the 7-11 with my hair wrapped up wearing a jogging pants and some random shirt but I'm still identifying as female despite not looking overly glamorous and still accepted by society as female, because when you look at me that's what you see no matter the time of day, no matter the clothes I wear, everything about me aside exudes female point blank.

You are trying to make it seem like CD/TV always identify as female just like us transsexuals and that sir will never be the case.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:01 AM

nysprod

07-26-2013, 03:06 AM

I don't want to be forced to cater to someone else's fetish.

~BB~

Isn't that your business though? Catering to people's (read men's) fetishes?

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:09 AM

If you walked up to John that is a CD while he is at work and asked him if he is a female he would say 'No' and he would also use the mens bathroom. .
If he gave the opposite answer would that change your conclusion? What you are talking about is a particular character rather than an inherent one I think.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:11 AM

Do you believe that before you transitioned you did not have gender dysphoria?

No, I knew I had it, but I alternatingly rationalized and repressed it. That doesn't mean that I thought I was a woman. It meant that I was a male with a female brain. In order to make myself more comfortable with that, I transitioned my body to match. A CD/TV has no such need. They demand the rewards for doing so without actually having to do the work.

Furthermore, this entire argument in nowhere near gender-specific. If we didn't care about our personal expression, we'd all drive the same car, wear the same clothes, and accept any treatment that came our way. We present the way we do because we want to show the world who we are. We can't participate in that system and then say things like 'I don't want to be judged by my clothes (or hormones, or whatever).'

Worse still, are the CD/TV people who outright claim to be TS. This is interesting because true TS women claim to be women... and they are. But using this terminology forces others, such as yourself, to give TV/CD people the benefit of the doubt (read: allow them to force you into their fetish dreamworld).

Isn't that your business though? Catering to people's (read men's) fetishes?

I don't work for free, sweetheart. Do you?

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:15 AM

I agree with you absolutely as regards the difference, Bella, but I don't understand the hostility.

It's frustration, actually. There are people who intentionally muddy the definition of transsexualism as a means of finding a way to be included in it, or worse, to invalidate others. Sometimes they even do so out of *gasp* repressed homosexuality!

'It's only gay if...'

~BB~

Amy Gray

07-26-2013, 03:15 AM

One of these days I need to post a picture of me as a drag king just so I can make heads explode.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:17 AM

No, I knew I had it, but I alternatingly rationalized and repressed it. That doesn't mean that I thought I was a woman.

I don't work for free, sweetheart. Do you?

~BB~
I think it does mean you thought you were a woman; that is in terms of your gender identification, and not in terms of biological sex. Gender dysphoria means that you identify as female/male when your sex is male/female.

We can split hairs over what's conscious and unconscious though. So you repressed the fact that you thought you were a woman and therefore you didn't really think you're a woman?

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:19 AM

'It's only gay if...'

~BB~
Right, but your motive couldn't possibly be to put-down Krissy out of personal animus could it?

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 03:20 AM

It depends how you define identify. You are defining it in terms of creating an appearance to the outside world. If that were the case, then those with gender dysphoria at a young age do not identify as female gender-wise because they have not yet transitioned.

No I'm not, it's your very essence. Which is what I apparently (not good enough) was alluding to when I described waking up and going to the store. I could be wearing clothes that would be typical for a guy with hair hidden and still would be considered a woman. I knew I was supposed to be a girl from 6 or 7, but didn't learn that there was something different about me wanting that until around 10 when I first went to therapy for it. The therapist not knowing a whit about transsexualism didn't explain transsexualism to me, so it wasn't until later that I learned that "hey, there is something that I can do about the way I'm feeling, I don't have to live my life as a male, I can actually transition to female" Once I did I didn't look back.

If he gave the opposite answer would that change your conclusion? What you are talking about is a particular character rather than an inherent one I think.

No, this is the case for just about all CD/TV. Are you suggesting that there are CD/TV that live 24/7 as female but still identify as male? If he said he felt like he was born in the wrong body and felt he needed to transition than I would consider him transsexual, otherwise he is just CD/TV enjoying wearing the clothes when the mood suits him. In and of itself, my belief is toward CD/TV is whatever makes you happy, but don't consider your struggle to be the same as mine.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:21 AM

I think it does mean you thought you were a woman; that is in terms of your gender identification, and not in terms of biological sex. Gender dysphoria means that you identify as female/male when your sex is male/female.

We can split hairs over what's conscious and unconscious though. So you repressed the fact that you thought you were a woman and therefore you didn't really think you're a woman?

One can't prove that their brain is female without outward presentation to that effect. The concept of self-identification is a total fucking cop-out. It means that anybody can claim to be anything. So no, I knew I was a woman inside, but I didn't just throw on a dress and a wig and force people into an awkward state of acquiescence. I did the work, legitimized my presentation and my feelings, and the authenticity of those actions is what allowed me to get to a place where the world can view me as I want to be seen.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for you. I'm honestly running out of patience.

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:23 AM

Remy, I think we've both been clear, articulate, and even understanding as neither of us has claimed hatred for TV/CD people.

... but dawn breaks on marble head.

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:31 AM

No, this is the case for just about all CD/TV. If he said he felt like he was born in the wrong body and felt he needed to transition than I would consider him transsexual, otherwise he is just CD/TV enjoying wearing the clothes when the mood suits him. .
Just about all? So you're conceding the point by saying that even if this individual was one of those rare cross-dressers who would answer the question in the opposite way, then you would consider that person transsexual. You sort of have to fix definitions because you're all over the map. If cross-dresser means someone who doesn't feel they were born in the wrong body, then you have just described someone who is excluded from the category of transsexual. If it means someone who dresses only temporarily as female then you have not, in which case your previous rhetorical question is kind of helpful.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:35 AM

Remy, I think we've both been clear, articulate, and even understanding as neither of us has claimed hatred for TV/CD people.

... but dawn breaks on marble head.

~BB~
Obviously someone can only disagree with you if they don't understand you:).

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 03:36 AM

One of these days I need to post a picture of me as a drag king just so I can make heads explode.

Yes, but you'd still be cute.

Sorry, Amy, you just can't help it. :shrug

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:38 AM

Obviously someone can only disagree with you if they don't understand you:).

You're not arguing. You're searching for logical paradoxes so that you can play the gotcha game. :lol:

I'm not stupid. I've been around my share of these types of 'arguments.'

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:41 AM

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 03:42 AM

Just about all? So you're conceding the point by saying that even if this individual was one of those rare cross-dressers who would answer the question in the opposite way, then you would consider that person transsexual. You sort of have to fix definitions because you're all over the map. If cross-dresser means someone who doesn't feel they were born in the wrong body, then you have just described someone who is excluded from the category of transsexual. If it means someone who dresses only temporarily as female then you have not, in which case your previous rhetorical question is kind of helpful.

I said that because in life there are always exceptions to the rule. Crossdresser is a person that wears the clothes of the opposite sex they identify as temporarily. TV is a person that attains sexual gratification by the simple process of wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Neither of those CD or TV is anywhere near a transsexual. I'm not basing anything I'm saying off of a single individual.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:44 AM

*SMH* at some of these guys trying to argue about transsexuality with transsexuals.

~BB~
Aha, that's what I was asking in my first question. This is an internal debate is it? Excuuuuse the hell out of me.:)

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:46 AM

Aha, that's what I was asking in my first question. This is an internal debate is it? Excuuuuse the hell out of me.:)

You're asking baiting questions and using red herrings. I'm done. Best of luck figuring out your sexuality.

~BB~

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 03:47 AM

*SMH* at some of these guys trying to argue about transsexuality with transsexuals.

*SMH* at the guys who secretly hope the former guys win their arguments so that they can feel less gay about getting fucked by that CD last week... as well as their lust for more. #youstillgay

~BB~

lol I've been wondering how a Femboi thread could be so popular let alone exist on a transsexual porn forum. I guess for some guys into transwomen they really do have an anything goes mentality. To each their own, I reckon. Maybe the forum should just be called HungPeople lol. We can start twink threads, Bear threads, buff guys threads, buff female threads, whatever floats your boat it's like 31 flavors here, never mind the transsexuals over there. lol I jest

broncofan

07-26-2013, 03:51 AM

It is cute that you two make losing arguments and then quote each other and give the thumbs up periodically. The number of ad hominem attacks sort of gives the impression that you'd like to win the argument with insults rather than logic.

If someone contradicts themselves I don't really see how it's the gotcha game to point it out. Of course, you're probably better off discouraging discussion by arguing that those who disagree with you are doing so because of their sexuality and not because they think your arguments are crude.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 03:56 AM

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 03:57 AM

lol I've been wondering how a Femboi thread could be so popular let alone exist on a transsexual porn forum. I guess for some guys into transwomen they really do have an anything goes mentality. To each their own, I reckon. Maybe the forum should just be called HungPeople lol. We can start twink threads, Bear threads, buff guys threads, buff female threads, whatever floats your boat it's like 31 flavors here, never mind the transsexuals over there. lol I jest

Don't Remy, please. We're going to be swamped by twinks and bears!

Unless of course that would be showing solidarity with the general flow of LGBT politics with the emphasis on the L and G lol.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 04:36 AM

Pacific Rim was great! Go see it. I've only got a little while before dinner and The Wolverine but...

I will respond to those who have quoted me with the exception of course, to Bella directly, because she is a whole different kind of crazy that makes no sense at all. ALL (and I mean ALL) her points are easily dispelled and easily proven as either illogical, false, circular, or more to the point... just plain crazy.

If ANYONE else sees any sort of merit in something she has said, quote it to me, ask a question and I'll respond in kind.

All I ask is this if you engage with me... be intellectually honest, actually honest, answer questions that are posed to you, don't deflect topics, read what I've written, and I shall do the same... agreed?

Individual counterpoints coming shortly.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 04:45 AM

I will respond to those who have quoted me with the exception of course, to Bella directly, because she is a whole different kind of crazy that makes no sense at all. ALL (and I mean ALL) her points are easily dispelled and easily proven as either illogical, false, circular, or more to the point... just plain crazy.

http://www.backpocketcoo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Chicken-Shit.jpg

~BB~

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 04:48 AM

First of all i never said that beeing LGBis a behavior that can be changed because i firmly believe that some is a born that way the same way as a transgenderd person is.And i dont feel that i am in any way superior to someone that is lgb i am just saying that it is completly different thing from beeing transgender and i my view a transgender woman that is straight doesnt belong in the catagory but a transgender that indentifies as bi or lesbian does.And for you other point in your other post about that the lgb community does care about T rights have a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Non-Discrimination_Act they will drop as like a brik if they dont need us, apperntly it is oke to discrimnate against T who are looking for a job.

First of all, people must take responsibility for the things that they say AND the LOGICAL conclusions that can be drawn from them. Can we agree on that?

This is what you said (bold mine) [SIC]:

"I would say that the problem is more that people get grouped into groups where they dont belong.gay/lesbian/bi is about who you are atracted to completely different from someone that is a ts who is born in the wrong body..."

In fact, what you have stated there is that being LGB is "...about who you are attracted to" and is "completely different from someone who is a TS".

So, you did say it...? How am I possibly misreading that? The LOGICAL implication from that statement is to say that LGB people are CHOOSING ("attraction" is a behavior and can be changed) to be LGB... that is a mistake and ultimately defeats your own argument, and I explained why.

You cannot judge a person's BEHAVIOR but then declare it unfair and not listen when someone with conservative views judges YOUR BEHAVIOR in the same way, without being completely hypocritical. That is why you must start an argument for equality and acceptance without bias... that is to say, HUMANS should be treated equally... with respect, dignity, and etc. If you start from a place of bias, you will end your own argument.

I am not arguing that CD/TV is the EQUIVALENT of TS. I never have and I never will. I am arguing that the distaste shown by the TS community towards those individuals BASED ON A CERTAIN BEHAVIOR that they dislike ultimately weakens and defeats their arguments. Besides making them look like utter hypocrites which OF COURSE the LGB community is going to steer away from. It is just smart of them to recognize the division and sidestep the issue because they can actually make progress without people pointing to the "T" and laughing their asses off.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 04:58 AM

Yeah. I'll admit I am prejudice against drag queens. I don't know why, but I think they're loud, annoying, obnoxious, and not even funny. I don't get the concept of dressing up like a clown and making a mockery of an entire community. They smear their lipstick, they cake their face. It looks ridiculous, and stupid. It could be because I don't drink. Maybe you have to be shit faced to get the humor (if there is any). Personally, I find their humor quite offensive.

As far as CD's go. I'll never understand the fetish of dressing up. I wear panties everyday and don't get a hard on.

And that is fine. You admit you have a bias and judge people negatively based on looks, mannerisms, and etc... even when they're doing it on purpose (that's what a Drag Queen does). You don't have to like it, and I myself don't love going to Drag shows... in fact, I can't remember the last time I went to one.

As for your last comments. Can I just ask you this...

Why does it bother you (to the point that you feel you have to even mention it, negatively, in this context) WHAT someone's particular fetish is or how hard they get wearing panties?

This is the "hatred", although in this case, somewhat veiled, that the TS community has towards the CD/TV community. It MUST be brought up in EVERY SINGLE discussion. They MUST be ridiculed in EVERY SINGLE discussion. If you can't make your point your last resort is to just call the person an "UGLY CROSSDRESSER"... and then watch the other people pile on...

nysprod

07-26-2013, 05:09 AM

Wow...L's and G's don't like T's...T's don't like CD/TV's...sad.

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:18 AM

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:21 AM

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:24 AM

I thought crossdressers were those who from time to time dressed as female. But you do a very good job of repeating your conclusion in three different ways.
Well, I tried to make it as simple as possible for you, hoping you might understand it. But, you still probably don't. And, yes, you're right. They dress as female from time to time for sexual gratification, so that makes him female?

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 05:25 AM

You seem to be a bit dense. Crossdressers are mentally male. Transsexuals are mentally female. In other words, crossdressers are men, and transsexuals are women. Putting on lipstick and panties doesn't change the brain chemistry of a crossdressing man into a woman. It has nothing to do (for me, at least) with "disliking" crossdressers, we just have nothing in common. He can jerk off in his panties all day long for all I care, but don't compare that behavior to the lifelong struggle transsexuals face living in the body of the opposite sex.

I agree with the overall content of that, Maddy. But surely crossdressing is an essential piece of experimentation for transsexuals as they start out on the transition journey, ie. if the clothes feel right. When my friend Claire transitioned she described that as her first tentative step.

But I'd of course differentiate that from the guys who get off on the fetish of wearing women's clothes.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 05:26 AM

We shall have to agree to disagree. I don't feel a CD has the same struggle as a transwoman, because when a CD goes for a job they can choose to go as a guy and only dress up and play as CD when it suits them. Transwomen are the way we are 24/7 365, we are not going to be content to only "dress" as women when it is convenient, we are living our lives and taking humungous steps to rectify our gender issues that can leave us ridiculed by both society, friends, and family. Someone who is CD doesn't necessarily have to encounter any of those things and still live a perfectly happy life. CD don't have to take meds and have surgeries to align their physical gender. Sure, CD may have some general similarities when it comes to all groups of civil rights issues, but the transwoman/transman struggle is unique in so many ways that can not be compared to any other group of people.

One CD guy I know is in the Navy, he and is wife are perfectly happy and normal looking folk that go about day to day life fine and dandy. When a local Fet event happens, she dolls him all up and he plays the CD to his heart content in the safety of a welcoming Fet environment. The next day he showers and goes right back to his happy normal guy life until he either plays at home with wife or they do another Fet event. Hardly the struggle any transwoman has had to deal with. Transwomen can't even serve in the military!! lol

OK, I will chalk this up to poor communication on my part. I though I was making a point that was understood but failed to mention it specifically.

Let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR. I have never said, nor implied (without correction, as I am doing now) that the CD/TV community faces the same struggles as the TS community. It is not something I believe, and it is not something that I would support in anyone's argument towards that theory.

What I AM stating is that what the CD/TV community does or does not do SHOULD NOT MATTER when it comes to "equality"... That is an issue of behavior... and as I already stated, if you are attacking someone on the grounds of behavior, you have already lost your argument.

Again, I will ask you this as well...

WHY, in a discussion about EQUALITY, do YOU feel it necessary to bring up the CD/TV community AT ALL? What is the pertinence of your anecdote about your Navy friend except to say that he has a proclivity for wearing his wife's panties?

That is not a commentary on THAT PERSON TAKING AWAY or INFRINGING UPON the rights of ANY TS individual. That is a commentary on one person having a fetish... and indulging in it.

You could have just as easily made the entire point by the very last sentence, "Transwomen can't even serve in the military!" That is a statement of inequality.

All your anecdote did was to serve as a "giggle and a laugh" about those "silly CD's". Again, THIS is the stuff that is REGULAR in discussions with the TS community. It is something it just can't resist.

MUST.MAKE.FUN.OF.CD/TV. MUST.GET.LAUGH.AT.CD/TV.EXPENSE. MY.POINT.BETTER.IF.CD/TV.IS.LAUGHED.AT.

Honestly, it is tiring. Make your points on their OWN merits.

I try to back everything I say up with explanations. Does it make my posts long? Sure. Do people read them? Who cares. I care about being honest, being accurate as possible, and trying to explain myself clearly.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:28 AM

They dress as female from time to time for sexual gratification, so that makes him female?
I didn't say they were necessarily female, just that they were not disqualified from being so because they have not transitioned.

If for instance someone with gender dysphoria is female gender-wise before they transition then why is it not possible that someone who is a cross-dresser has gender dysphoria but is not ready to transition? I didn't say that was always the case, just a possibility.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 05:28 AM

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:29 AM

I agree with the overall content of that, Maddy. But surely crossdressing is an essential piece of experimentation for transsexuals as they start out on the transition journey, ie. if the clothes feel right. When my friend Claire transitioned she described that as her first tentative step.

But I'd of course differentiate that from the guys who get off on the fetish of wearing women's clothes.
I agree, completely. I think what throws me off is the term "crossdressing", because to me, it applies the person is a man dressing as a woman. To me, a transsexual woman dressing in female clothing isn't "crossdressing" at all. However, I see how it could be perceived as such. Of course, it's very an important beginning step in transition to practice with makeup/clothing/etc. If a crossdresser wants to wear female clothes, that is totally fine and I have no harsh feelings towards that at all. What does anger me, however, is when crossdressing men are lumped in with transsexuals...leading people to believe (yet again) that transsexuality is some sort of fetish or sexual roleplay.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:30 AM

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:31 AM

I didn't say they were necessarily female, just that they were not disqualified from being so because they have not transitioned.

If for instance someone with gender dysphoria is female gender-wise before they transition then why is it not possible that someone who is a cross-dresser has gender dysphoria but is not ready to transition? I didn't say that was always the case, just a possibility.
I'm sorry, I do agree with you there. But, the term "crossdressing" is what threw me off. To me, someone psychologically female isn't crossdressing, even before hormones or any type of surgery.

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:34 AM

When I reference crossdressers I'm talking about men who dress as a woman from time to time for a variety of reasons, not a transsexual experimenting or in early transition

nysprod

07-26-2013, 05:36 AM

I love that old trope: 'tgirls all start out as crossdressers.'

Wrong. Wrong. A thousand times wrong.

~BB~

Lol..."old trope"...

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 05:38 AM

I love that old trope: 'tgirls all start out as crossdressers.'

Wrong. Wrong. A thousand times wrong.

~BB~

My bad, but you're being semantically disingenuous, BB.

Let's discard cross-dressing as a term and instead say experimenting by trying on your mother's or your older sister's clothes when you get the first feelings that you might be in the wrong body. That's what I meant, and I've never met a transgirl who hasn't gone through that rite of passage.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 05:39 AM

OK, I'm calling it:

Broncofan =

http://carryingthegun.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/personal_trollface_hd.png

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 05:40 AM

My bad, but you're being semantically disingenuous, BB.

Let's discard cross-dressing as a term and instead say experimenting by trying on your mother's or your older sister's clothes when you get the first feelings that you might be in the wrong body. That's what I meant, and I've never met a transgirl who hasn't gone through that rite of passage.

Nope. I didn't do it. My dad would have put me in the hospital.

There people go again: discussing things which they don't understand.

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:40 AM

Somehow the argument that those who cross-dress might still have gender dysphoria and identify as female has been transformed into the argument that one who cross-dresses is a transsexual.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:43 AM

Bella,
you really are a child. One has the choice to ignore you, agree with you, or be insulted.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 05:44 AM

Somehow the argument that those who cross-dress might still have gender dysphoria and identify as female has been transformed into the argument that one who cross-dresses is a transsexual.

Not ONE person has said that a CD can't have gender dysphoria. We've argued that unless they undergo transition, they're not women. Great attempt as distraction, though. Well done!

This conversation is over because everything that's needed to be said has been said, not because you say so. :lol:

Seriously though, to the corner with you. Dismissed.

http://www.allamericanblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DUNCE.jpg

Bella,
you really are a child. One has the choice to ignore you, agree with you, or be insulted.

Not 'one.' You. I'm glad we've reached an understanding. :geek:

~BB~

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 05:47 AM

Nope. I didn't do it. My dad would have put me in the hospital.

There people go again: discussing things which they don't understand.

~BB~

I don't want to fall out with you Bella; it would be a first.

All I'm doing is recounting the experience of the girls I know, almost all of whom are living what we tiresomely call "stealth" lives. It scared the hell out of them, but it was also, in almost every case, the first confirmation that they knew that they would at some time transition. Quite a few of them also lived in fear of a macho father or fiercely masculine environment, but they did it nonetheless.

I'm talking about 14 or 15 girls, but I'll bet it's 14 or 15 more than most guys who post here have met. And they're friends, not casual acquaintances or escorts.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:47 AM

If someone has gender dysphoria, they are in fact female gender wise. It doesn't matter how many pictures you post to the contrary, that's actually the definition of the terms you used.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 05:50 AM

First, I want to say that I am not trying to be rude or in any way mean. I actually thought you identified as CD, based on previous statements I saw a couple years ago. I even thought your site was marketed as CD, though I admit I haven't actually gone and looked at it in a very long time. If I may ask, and again, this is in no way to support whatever Bella is getting at, I just would like to know where you stand on the matter. Why do you choose to not transition?

No offense taken at all. It is a question I am often asked and one that I will explain.

1. I RUN A PORN SITE.
The purpose of said site it to entertain my Members AND line my pockets.
Lining said pockets means I go after as many Members as possible.
"As many Members as possible" means I go after ALL TRAFFIC using ALL TERMS (Tgirl, Shemale, Ladyboy, Newhalf, Crossdresser, Tranny, Transvestite... I don't really care).
This means if I call myself a trucker in a dress to get that other trucker in a dress to join my site... fine... I'm a trucker in a dress and damn proud of it! Now give me your $29.95!
I have now run said site for over 10 years through some of the worst economic times we've had. Successfully. I won't discuss personal finances but through this marketing, I've kept this site running while many, many other more "TS'y" (that's a joke) type sites have failed.

2. WHY I DON'T / HAVEN'T TRANSITION
The short answer is, "Why in the HELL does that matter to you at all?"

However, for the sake of this discussion, I will be civil about it.

So, what makes you think that I don't have plans to transition? Have you peeked into my scheduling book to see for yourself? You just automatically assume that because I market myself to the CD/TV community AS WELL AS the TS porn community... that I am one of those "silly CD's" just in it for the money and so I can get fucked proper on a weekly basis? I very specifically chose the term "Tgirl" for a tagline because guys immediately know what it is, CD/TV know what it is, and the TS porn person understands the term.

So here is the thing. My personal opinion is that transitioning is a deeply personal and intimate thing. It changes your ENTIRE life, obviously. I, in fact, DO have plans in the future but it will be on my terms and in a quiet, insignificant way once I leave the porn industry.

I have ALWAYS been of the mind that girls (and people in general) need to look out for themselves. Could I go spend all my savings right now, get the best doctors, have the perfect body that I want, and be fully "transitioned" (whatever the hell that means)? YES. I have the finances to do it.

HOWEVER, I'm also looking out for my future. I save money. I put it away for emergencies, retirement, more traveling, nice things, etc. My transitional process does not bother me to the extent that I must go out right now, at this very moment, get boobs and cut my penis off. If it did, I would.

It is a PERSONAL decision that I've made... and one that I can live with indefinitely. I think I have shared the actual reason and what I'm waiting for with two people in my lifetime. Seanchai the first time he shot me for Shemale Yum, and for some stupid reason, Christian during some emails I was sending back and forth with him. Other than that, I have no interest in letting a bunch of "strangers" on a forum like this into a personal and intimate part of my life.

I am FIRMLY against the theory that TS means you MUST transition... The TS community (as a whole) can't even define what "transition" actually means.

So, I answered your questions... here are mine:

Am I, or is anyone, more or less of a person because I haven't transitioned?

Have I demonstrated that I don't or can't understand all sides of the issue BECAUSE I haven't transitioned? If so, where?

When you take that first hormone pill, does that magically make you suddenly "TS"? Or is it only when your penis actually hits the floor?

Do you see how insane an argument of "TS must transition" really is?

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:50 AM

I don't want to fall out with you Bella; it would be a first.

All I'm doing is recounting the experience of the girls I know, almost all of whom are living what we tiresomely call "stealth" lives. It scared the hell out of them, but it was also, in almost every case, the first confirmation that they knew that they would at some time transition. Quite a few of them also lived in fear of a macho father or fiercely masculine environment, but they did it nonetheless.

I'm talking about 14 or 15 girls, but I'll bet it's 14 or 15 more than most guys who post here have met. And they're friends, not casual acquaintances or escorts.
I understand what you're saying and I agree with the gist of it. Sorry if I misinterpreted it. :)

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 05:51 AM

If someone has gender dysphoria, they are in fact female gender wise. It doesn't matter how many pictures you post to the contrary, that's actually the definition of the terms you used.

I stated that identity is only one aspect of the diagnostic criteria.

I refer you to the DSM-IV, ICD code 302.85:

http://www.ifge.org/302.85_Gender_Identity_Disorder_in_Adolescents_or_ Adults

You are a piss-poor excuse for a debate opponent. That's why I'm clowning you. You get that, right? :lol:

~BB~

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 05:52 AM

OK, I think that is everyone :)

If anyone else has questions, more than happy to give my 2 cents and explain my position as clearly as I can.

Going to go watch The Wolverine and then fruity drinks with some fruity friends :).

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 05:54 AM

Not ONE person has said that a CD can't have gender dysphoria. We've argued that unless they undergo transition, they're not women. Great attempt as distraction, though. Well done!

This conversation is over because everything that's needed to be said has been said, not because you say so. :lol:

Seriously though, to the corner with you. Dismissed.

http://www.allamericanblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DUNCE.jpg

Not 'one.' You. I'm glad we've reached an understanding. :geek:

~BB~
I don't agree. Transitioning doesn't make someone a woman. It makes the world see you as a woman.. however, being trans isn't just about the process of transitioning. Someone can be psychologically female whether she transitions her body to physically appear female or not.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 05:57 AM

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender

Every single one of the bullet points in the definition deal with gender. You know why? Because they are being used as a proxy to satisfy the above definition, stated in the preamble.

The reason you're posting pictures is because you're unable to have a civil argument and are insecure.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 05:57 AM

I don't agree. Transitioning doesn't make someone a woman. It makes the world see you as a woman.. however, being trans isn't just about the process of transitioning. Someone can be psychologically female whether she transitions her body to physically appear female or not.

... but they're still in the body and social role of a man, so they're still a man in every measurable way. Sorry not sorry.

~BB~

broncofan

07-26-2013, 06:02 AM

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators:

Just to repeat. The diagnostic criteria are trying to establish this right here, which is stated above the six "indicators". What is being established?

What is being established is an incongruence between experienced gender and assigned gender. So if one has gender dysphoria and their assigned gender was male, then in order for there to be an incongruence, they must have an experienced OR expressed gender of female.

Otherwise, there would not be an incongruence. :)

maddygirl

07-26-2013, 06:03 AM

... but they're still in the body and social role of a man, so they're still a man in every measurable way. Sorry not sorry.

~BB~
I don't think it's fair to call someone a man who is actually trans and hasn't transitioned. I know, even before transition, I wasn't a "man." I've never thought like a man in my life. I think to base someone's identity on their forced social role is a bit out of order. What if she can't take hormones due to medical reasons, and therefore, isn't comfortable transitioning in a body which is masculinizing and may never "pass?" I think that in itself is incredibly difficult to deal with, and I don't think a person in this situation deserves to be ostracized or invalidated.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 06:08 AM

I don't think it's fair to call someone a man who is actually trans and hasn't transitioned. I know, even before transition, I wasn't a "man." I've never thought like a man in my life. I think to base someone's identity on their forced social role is a bit out of order. What if she can't take hormones due to medical reasons, and therefore, isn't comfortable transitioning in a body which is masculinizing and may never "pass?" I think that in itself is incredibly difficult to deal with, and I don't think a person in this situation deserves to be ostracized or invalidated.

Fair? No. Consistent with the law of averages? You betcha. I understand your point, but I'm sorry, people who can't transition for medical reasons are the exception to a fairly invariable rule. It's another one of those non-disprovable cop-outs people use when they are afraid to lose their male privilege, but also want to be treated like women. We call that ambivalence where I come from.

~BB~

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 06:23 AM

@Broncofan,

Standing in line!

I haven't read all of your posts yet since I was working on mine but so far, nice work on TRYING to have a dialogue. Now you see why I choose not to with this particular person. It is insanity. Have fun!

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 07:13 AM

2. WHY I DON'T / HAVEN'T TRANSITION
The short answer is, "Why in the HELL does that matter to you at all?"

So, what makes you think that I don't have plans to transition?

I didn't say you don't plan to transition. I read your words towards Bella

"...Because I have CHOSEN (I actually have the financial capability to do so) NOT to actually transition at this point in life?"

and it made me wonder what could possibly be holding you back. You appear to be in a unique position where you don't have 'outside' factors that typically hold a person that identifies as a woman back from transitioning.

I of course don't know you personally so it could totally be family reasons for not transitioning. Or you could already be living full time as a woman, and just don't want to take hormones, etc. I am not personally of the mind that you have to

"...spend all my savings right now, get the best doctors, have the perfect body that I want, and be fully "transitioned"

just to start your transition. I personally haven't spent all my savings, I don't have the perfect body that I want, and I am by no means fully transitioned, but I am still transitioning.

So here is the thing. My personal opinion is that transitioning is a deeply personal and intimate thing. It changes your ENTIRE life, obviously. I, in fact, DO have plans in the future but it will be on my terms and in a quiet, insignificant way once I leave the porn industry.

So basically you want to wait til after porn career is over... fair enough

HOWEVER, I'm also looking out for my future. I save money. I put it away for emergencies, retirement, more traveling, nice things, etc. My transitional process does not bother me to the extent that I must go out right now, at this very moment, get boobs and cut my penis off. If it did, I would.

Who even refers to transitioning in this manner? I have to say you are the first TS who repeatedly refers to transitioning in such a crass manner. Most people don't start their transition by doing those things you mentioned above. It's fairly well known that taking hormones and allowing your body and mind to transition from male to female is also part of the process. Hormones affect more than just your physical body, also the mind. GRS (not cut my penis off) is generally a step that occurs later during ones transition. Hormones aren't necessarily that expensive especially when a person can manage their money appropriately. I'm generally shocked when girls chooses to never take hormones and just get breast implants starting from the boy chest stage, but to each their own. Hormones really is about much more than just growing boobs though.

So, I answered your questions... here are mine:

Am I, or is anyone, more or less of a person because I haven't transitioned?

No, you aren't less of a person. lol Why on earth would you think that I feel you are less of a person or that I referred to you as less of a person? You seem to have a fair amount of hostility boiling inside you.

Have I demonstrated that I don't or can't understand all sides of the issue BECAUSE I haven't transitioned? If so, where?

No, nor did I say you couldn't, if you feel I said you, GroobyKrissy, don't know anything about trans issues, by all means point it out to me

When you take that first hormone pill, does that magically make you suddenly "TS"? Or is it only when your penis actually hits the floor?

Again, what the hell does "penis actually hits the floor" mean? lol Where in the world (aside from porn) does a trans woman penis hit the floor? No one refers to GRS like that if you feel that is some sort of euphemism. By the way guys the penis is inverted, just saying so they don't getting confused. lol

Do you see how insane an argument of "TS must transition" really is?

I think you are confusing me with someone else, I wasn't making the argument that TS must transition. My statements were that CD/TV struggles are not the same as TS, there should be empathy for all people, and that I would not want to be lumped together with CD/TV as we are different.

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 07:48 AM

What I AM stating is that what the CD/TV community does or does not do SHOULD NOT MATTER when it comes to "equality"... That is an issue of behavior... and as I already stated, if you are attacking someone on the grounds of behavior, you have already lost your argument.

I am not nor have I attacked anyone at all.

Again, I will ask you this as well...

WHY, in a discussion about EQUALITY, do YOU feel it necessary to bring up the CD/TV community AT ALL? What is the pertinence of your anecdote about your Navy friend except to say that he has a proclivity for wearing his wife's panties?

I didn't bring up CD/TV first, if you look back to my initial post on this thread there is no mention of CD/TV and I am all for LGBT organizations. It was you who mentioned CD/TV here:

So... do you think this may have something to do with the fact that the TG (included here for "popular" understanding of equal terms with "TS") /TS community (generally) has a rampant hatred of and towards the CD/TV community, demonstrating the very (and actual) bigotry that they condemn in others? The hypocrisy is stunning and makes a mockery of their argument for equal treatment.

to which I replied;

Very good point. Though I don't really think it is hatred of/toward cd/tv so much as the hatred of/toward mainstream society that lumps transsexuals with cd/tv, as if we are all one and the same. I have more than a few associates that are cd, and if I was to go out with them and someone called me a cd I would be offended, though to be clear, I'm not one to act out and cause scenes so that person wouldn't even know I was offended. It's nothing personally against any cd, just that with shows like Rupaul Drag Race etc they tend to see more CD than actual Transsexuals and lump us all together. While I do agree that all people should fight for equal rights of all other groups of people, the struggles of being transsexual and the rights we fight for are not exactly the same as CD/TV/Gay/Bi/Les.

I wasn't mentioning my friend who is CD and in the Navy to make fun of him. I was merely being very blunt about the difference between CD and TS to that poster I was conversing with. It seems you are taking my statement as some kind of negative. I don't see anything wrong with what he does, I wouldn't be his friend otherwise. I pointed out to the poster an exact example of how a CD is different from transwomen in that he (the CD) can go about his life as regular "joe" after a Fet party like normal, and I am always transsexual.

That is not a commentary on THAT PERSON TAKING AWAY or INFRINGING UPON the rights of ANY TS individual. That is a commentary on one person having a fetish... and indulging in it.

I never said CD/TV take away or infringe upon the rights of any ts, please show me where I said that...

You could have just as easily made the entire point by the very last sentence, "Transwomen can't even serve in the military!" That is a statement of inequality.

All your anecdote did was to serve as a "giggle and a laugh" about those "silly CD's". Again, THIS is the stuff that is REGULAR in discussions with the TS community. It is something it just can't resist.

Where did I say anything about CD's being silly or something to laugh at? My point wasn't to only show inequality, but to show how easy it is for CD guys to go from identifying as female for a few hours to back to identifying as guy again. You're projecting whatever issues you have from those "regular discussions in the TS community" you have with others. I've always stated trans struggles are not the same as CD/TV and I don't want to be confused as CD/TV. Empathy should be shown to all groups of people as I've stated earlier. It is solely on you to feel like a statement has some humor in it. I found nothing humorous in it nor was there any intended.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 08:35 AM

http://www.changinginsideoutnow.com/images/inferioritycomplexheader.jpg

~BB~

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 09:53 AM

Look Remy...

This is where conversations and discussions derail. When one party cannot, or will not, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions, spoken AND unspoken and their words, said and implied.

I asked for a very, very simple thing.

BE INTELLECTUALLY HONEST
You have stated BY TACIT AGREEMENT that you adhere to this insanity that Bella preaches (by defending her positions). I have now read this thread in its entirety SEVERAL times through. Not ONCE (if it is there... point it out to me - there is a very, very weak, "...this is in no way to support whatever Bella is getting at..." comment, which I will address in a second), do I see YOU come out and say that what she is stating is madness... it is insane.

If you want to have an HONEST discussion about that, fine. But you MUST BE intellectually honest about what you actually believe... otherwise, it is absolutely POINTLESS to have an actual discussion.

Being intellectually honest means you don't say, "...this is in no way to support whatever Bella is getting at..." That is a total cop out. It is like those times when people say, "Not be a jerk BUT..." and then they go ahead and be a jerk... like one excuses the other. You strike me as an reasonable and somewhat honest person, yet this mockery of a question is what you choose to pull?

Remy, YOU must realize YOU are being played. This is what Bella excels at doing, playing one audience off the other and enjoying the mayhem she causes. I don't understand how you can miss this. But anyway...

If YOU want to have a conversation with ME about something, then fine. Let's do it. Let your arguments stand absolutely on their own merits... AS MINE DO.

In the interests of civility again, I will answer your comments separately. But please, in future...

THINK FOR YOURSELF.
TALK FOR YOURSELF.
REASON FOR YOURSELF.

All I see right now is a parrot of Bella because, hey, at least you know you're going to get someone to "Thumbs Up" your post, right? Whoopie.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 10:09 AM

I didn't say you don't plan to transition. I read your words towards Bella and it made me wonder what could possibly be holding you back. You appear to be in a unique position where you don't have 'outside' factors that typically hold a person that identifies as a woman back from transitioning.

I try to write my words as carefully as I can and try to insure that they are accurate as to what I am saying. I ASSUME others are doing the same. Thus, I assume what they write is what they mean, and that they are taking responsibility for those words.

If you ask somebody "Why do you choose not to transition?" you must realize that is an "ongoing" question... that is, it has no finality to it. If you had meant to say that you weren't sure about my transition status, you could have worded the question many different ways:

"Why, at this point in your life, are you choosing not to transition?"

"I am unaware of your actual transition status. I think it is pertinent for XXX reason in this discussion. Would you mind if I inquired about it?"

"Have you made any steps or do you plan on making any steps towards transition?"

Do you see how those questions have finality to them? Your question did not and I took it as such. The implication is that you do not think (or are assuming) that I have any such plans and that is how I wrote my answer.

Just like I said earlier, "poor communication on my part" AND TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT, you should do the same here. Your question was, evidently, not what you were, in fact asking.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 10:19 AM

Who even refers to transitioning in this manner? I have to say you are the first TS who repeatedly refers to transitioning in such a crass manner. Most people don't start their transition by doing those things you mentioned above. It's fairly well known that taking hormones and allowing your body and mind to transition from male to female is also part of the process. Hormones affect more than just your physical body, also the mind. GRS (not cut my penis off) is generally a step that occurs later during ones transition. Hormones aren't necessarily that expensive especially when a person can manage their money appropriately. I'm generally shocked when girls chooses to never take hormones and just get breast implants starting from the boy chest stage, but to each their own. Hormones really is about much more than just growing boobs though.

Really? You really didn't see one ounce of sarcasm in my wording there? You took that completely seriously? You felt that I was so serious about that one statement that it is the largest paragraph in your reply? You really think, after I just stated that I think "transitioning is a deeply personal and intimate thing" that THAT is how I actually speak about it?

I stated it that way to make a point. Asking the question in the first place was crude. I answered the question crude-ly. I accepted it pretty graciously, considering.

Please tell me... how is my PERSONAL transition status of any concern of yours AT ALL?

How or why is it pertinent at all to this discussion? Here is your answer. You saw Bella seize upon it, thought it was good for cheap points and a little mockery, and hid it behind a mask of "Hey, I don't want to be a jerk BUT..." Nice.

Tell me why, YOU have the right to question the gender identification of ANYONE here?

Then tell me when, I have EVER questioned the gender identity of ANYONE on this board, ANYONE at Fetlife, ANYONE... ANYWHERE? That's a lot of research so here is your answer... NEVER.

I base my points on reason... not by attacking, questioning, or dismissing someone's gender identity.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 10:35 AM

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 10:37 AM

No, you aren't less of a person. lol Why on earth would you think that I feel you are less of a person or that I referred to you as less of a person? You seem to have a fair amount of hostility boiling inside you.

No, nor did I say you couldn't, if you feel I said you, GroobyKrissy, don't know anything about trans issues, by all means point it out to me

Again, what the hell does "penis actually hits the floor" mean? lol Where in the world (aside from porn) does a trans woman penis hit the floor? No one refers to GRS like that if you feel that is some sort of euphemism. By the way guys the penis is inverted, just saying so they don't getting confused. lol

I think you are confusing me with someone else, I wasn't making the argument that TS must transition. My statements were that CD/TV struggles are not the same as TS, there should be empathy for all people, and that I would not want to be lumped together with CD/TV as we are different.

Look. This is what I mean by TACIT AGREEMENT. If, in a discussion, you align yourself with somebody and defend their beliefs without stating what you actually disagree with them with... you have tacitly agreed with their points. This is a pretty common practice in having a discussion among numerous people. Instead of restating what has already been said by someone you agree with, you either defend their points (as you have done here) or you voice a disagreement (haven't seen you do this yet, except in that one weak example I mentioned earlier).

So, when I state these things, it is because YOU have tacitly agreed with the comments that Bella has already made. Let's try this out.

Next time someone says something that you think is incorrect, but you've already defended part of their statements... start out a comment with, "Hey, this portion of their comment is wrong... I don't agree with it... but, I agree with this." If you just defend someone, you can be assumed to be agreeing with their statements.

Bella has stated pretty clearly the following items which I assumed you agree with because you haven't stated otherwise during this entire discussion:

A. If you don't transition, you have no right to call yourself TS (in this discussion, that would mean I would be considered, CD/TV or just plain male - both of which are obviously demeaning to someone who identifies as TS - i.e. - less of a person).

B. If you are not TS, you cannot speak on behalf or or even really understand the TS community.

C. About the hormone pill question... WOW. You really do not have a sense of humor at all, do you? You really do not know when someone is being sarcastic, do you? The point is... DEFINE TRANSITION EXACTLY. Because I will guess if you get 30 self-ID'd TS into a room and ask them what "transition means"... you'll get 30 different answers. THAT was the point of the question... Bella is fond of saying "If you don't transition... but has yet to state where that starts, what the process looks like, where it ends, etc.

D. Kind of rhetorical question... my last one. But again... tacit agreement to Bella, who has clearly stated that transition is a MUST if you are TS. I haven't heard you say that you don't believe that. Even this statement by you, "I wasn't making the argument that TS must transition." isn't really a "That is an insane point and I denounce it" type of response. It is a parsing of words... Yes, you weren't making that argument... but no, you weren't arguing against it either.

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 10:40 AM

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5432070400/hC36908D0/

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 10:54 AM

I am not nor have I attacked anyone at all.

So, you believe it is not a "personal" attack to question someone's gender identity as you did me, and in the manner in which you did it? I do. It was in poor taste and I'm pretty sure you realize it and the reasons why.

And again... tacit agreement. This is the very reason why, if you are vocal enough to defend someone's statements, you should also be vocal enough to state when you disagree with them. Otherwise a person will reasonably assume you, in fact, agree.

This is the primary reason I deal with people on a quote level. I want them to know exactly what I am addressing and who I am addressing it to. I don't go out of my way to defend other people unless the have a very good point but are flailing... I may add my 2 cents in. But, I just don't want to get caught "agreeing" with something someone says because I either missed it or didn't read it.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 11:07 AM

I didn't bring up CD/TV first, if you look back to my initial post on this thread there is no mention of CD/TV and I am all for LGBT organizations. It was you who mentioned CD/TV here:

to which I replied;

I wasn't mentioning my friend who is CD and in the Navy to make fun of him. I was merely being very blunt about the difference between CD and TS to that poster I was conversing with. It seems you are taking my statement as some kind of negative. I don't see anything wrong with what he does, I wouldn't be his friend otherwise. I pointed out to the poster an exact example of how a CD is different from transwomen in that he (the CD) can go about his life as regular "joe" after a Fet party like normal, and I am always transsexual.

Your first point is a fair one... sort of. The mention is part of a QUESTION which is far different than the mention in the following statement. If I ask how many apples and oranges are in a basket, and your answer contains information about nectarines, you've added information into the equation. In other words, I mentioned the CD/TV community in the question because otherwise it makes no sense... there is no comparative value against the TS community. The point of the question had nothing to do with the CD/TV community. The point of the question was about the TS community's treatment of said community. I don't think you're going to get that difference and it is a small one anyway. I concede the point.

Your second point. You MISSED my actual point. The point in my comment is not that you were making fun of him. The point is that YOU (yes YOU) brought your friend, a CD, into a discussion about equality. The point is that THIS KIND OF ANECDOTE ALWAYS finds its way into a discussion via a TS to illustrate some supposed "unfairness" or "difference" between TS and CD/TV. The point I was making is, stop with that already. We get it... CD/TV are not TS. Now, have your argument stand on its own without demeaning someone else. I pointed out how you could have done so very simply without even mentioning your friend at all.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 11:15 AM

I never said CD/TV take away or infringe upon the rights of any ts, please show me where I said that...

Where did I say anything about CD's being silly or something to laugh at? My point wasn't to only show inequality, but to show how easy it is for CD guys to go from identifying as female for a few hours to back to identifying as guy again. You're projecting whatever issues you have from those "regular discussions in the TS community" you have with others. I've always stated trans struggles are not the same as CD/TV and I don't want to be confused as CD/TV. Empathy should be shown to all groups of people as I've stated earlier. It is solely on you to feel like a statement has some humor in it. I found nothing humorous in it nor was there any intended.

Tacit agreement. Tacit agreement, and tacit agreement. Are you starting to see a pattern?

If you don't agree with something someone has said, when you've already defended their position, it is incumbent on YOU to speak up when you don't agree. This person obviously thinks you agree with everything she has already stated... I assumed you did because you didn't say otherwise.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 11:21 AM

IN CLOSING - FINALLY RIGHT!

Let me say this. I have found almost 100% of the time, discussions like this involving the TS community and an "outsider" challenging beliefs ends up ultimately a couple of ways:

You're just an angry person who is angry or jealous of the TS community (Remy).

You're just a CD or a man who can't understand so shut up (Bella).

My original point... proven here.

BellaBellucci

07-26-2013, 11:36 AM

I'm not in cahoots with Remy. In fact, we disagreed on another thread, except that unlike with you, we each kept a cool head.

As to you: cognitive dissonance. It is a bitch.

~BB~

Ms.Stepford

07-26-2013, 12:08 PM

Wow! Lotsa words happened. I've been fucking for the last six hours though so I'll be popping some Xanax to counteract the coke and going to bed with a slightly sore asshole.

I feel like my time tonight has been well-spent.

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 12:34 PM

That's a lot of fucking :P

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 03:58 PM

Remy,

Good morning.

I am going to answer this indirectly simply because I think the temptation will be strong on your part to echo the sentiment, and I want you to realize, understand, and pick up on the manipulation here.

I never said that you and Bella were in "cahoots". This would imply that I have some sort of conspiracy that you two are PM'ing each other for advice, etc. before writing your pieces. I do not.

What I have said is that Bella has regurgitated her filth, and you have, in this thread defended some of her points of view. Since then, you have not voiced any further disagreement with them (besides my one example). THAT is tacit agreement and the main point of several of my last posts. The fact that disagreement exists between you two outside of this thread... not even pertinent.

This is historically (and transparently) Bella's MO. Pay someone a compliment, get them "on her side" for a point or two, then just go absolutely off the rails crazy, then pretend that the world agrees with HER...because no one (props to Maddygirl here) calls her out on her utter nonsense. If that doesn't work it is a negative campaign, demeaning, dismissal, and etc. Oh, and of course... the "BFGoBella" - cognitive dissonance - talk about delusional. Anyway.

You know what, let's just get down to it.

What, re-reading Bella's entire posts (and this goes for anyone involved in this entire thread), do you disagree with? Do you agree with? Let's start from there. You don't have to get into a big discussion about why... just list them out... because I believe that there is a lot there that no sane, reasonable person could possibly believe.

nysprod

07-26-2013, 05:01 PM

Bella unquestionably is a person living with a lot of anger issues...

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 06:40 PM

Look. This is what I mean by TACIT AGREEMENT. If, in a discussion, you align yourself with somebody and defend their beliefs without stating what you actually disagree with them with... you have tacitly agreed with their points. This is a pretty common practice in having a discussion among numerous people. Instead of restating what has already been said by someone you agree with, you either defend their points (as you have done here) or you voice a disagreement (haven't seen you do this yet, except in that one weak example I mentioned earlier).

So, when I state these things, it is because YOU have tacitly agreed with the comments that Bella has already made. Let's try this out.

I haven't agreed/aligned to anything Bella has said, there is one single point where she agrees to something I said, there is a difference. I'm not having a conversation with Bella in this thread. I was having a conversation with you, Broncofan, fivekatz, and the original OP (LilyRox). Show me one post where I spoke to Bella directly. Am I also agreeing with everything robertlouis, nysprod, MsStepford etc said? Am I also conversing with them? By your ideology that means I also agree with everything that is said by anyone on this forum/threads that I don't explicit say I don't agree with. lol Utter foolishness. Your argument with this ideology is self defeating, as I didn't disagree with 'nysprod' when he stated that

Well said...I've been reading this thread all day and why Bella felt the need to come on here and attack Krissy, I have no idea.

There is a thread titled "Facebook girls" and I've been stating that it is wrong to place private images of transwomen on this porn forum without their permission. So by your reasoning since you didn't explicitly disagree with all the people who are saying "keep the thread going" you agree with them. lol That would be dumb of me to make such an assumption that you don't care about that issue just because you haven't spoken out specifically against it.

At the end of the day, as I stated, I thought you were CD because of the use of the term on your site (which you perfectly explained and I accept) not because of anything Bella said. I said I "don't support whatever Bella is getting at" that ultimately is on you to feel that that is not enough disagreement, you are clearly looking for people to take sides and it has to be either yours or Bella's, but I'm my own individual person and have my own thoughts on matters that I can choose to or not to speak upon as I see fit. It really seems like no matter how I would have worded it you still would have felt I was only saying it because of Bella. It popped into my head because YOU said "I have CHOSEN (I actually have the financial capability to do so) NOT to actually transition at this point in life" I thought it was awesome that you wanted to transition at all, I had no idea you wanted to transition because on your Fetlife page you choose to label yourself not as MtF but as CD/TV. If you feel that for marketing purposes its better to label yourself CD/TV even though you are MtF on social networks that's fine, get that money girl.

Next time someone says something that you think is incorrect, but you've already defended part of their statements... start out a comment with, "Hey, this portion of their comment is wrong... I don't agree with it... but, I agree with this." If you just defend someone, you can be assumed to be agreeing with their statements.

Bella has stated pretty clearly the following items which I assumed you agree with because you haven't stated otherwise during this entire discussion:

A. If you don't transition, you have no right to call yourself TS (in this discussion, that would mean I would be considered, CD/TV or just plain male - both of which are obviously demeaning to someone who identifies as TS - i.e. - less of a person).

B. If you are not TS, you cannot speak on behalf or or even really understand the TS community.

C. About the hormone pill question... WOW. You really do not have a sense of humor at all, do you? You really do not know when someone is being sarcastic, do you? The point is... DEFINE TRANSITION EXACTLY. Because I will guess if you get 30 self-ID'd TS into a room and ask them what "transition means"... you'll get 30 different answers. THAT was the point of the question... Bella is fond of saying "If you don't transition... but has yet to state where that starts, what the process looks like, where it ends, etc.

D. Kind of rhetorical question... my last one. But again... tacit agreement to Bella, who has clearly stated that transition is a MUST if you are TS. I haven't heard you say that you don't believe that. Even this statement by you, "I wasn't making the argument that TS must transition." isn't really a "That is an insane point and I denounce it" type of response. It is a parsing of words... Yes, you weren't making that argument... but no, you weren't arguing against it either.

I don't have to word anything the specific way you want just to satisfy what you feel is the only way of agreeing or disagreeing with someone.

As I clearly stated toward Broncofan

No, this is the case for just about all CD/TV. Are you suggesting that there are CD/TV that live 24/7 as female but still identify as male? If he said he felt like he was born in the wrong body and felt he needed to transition than I would consider him transsexual, otherwise he is just CD/TV enjoying wearing the clothes when the mood suits him. In and of itself, my belief is toward CD/TV is whatever makes you happy, but don't consider your struggle to be the same as mine.

I did not say he is only a transsexual after he starts transition, I've known ts that have chosen not to transition until they finish school, until their kids turn 18, all manner of reasons, you seem like an open person in that you mentioned you are choosing not to transition, so I figured I would ask your particular reason. I even explained why I didn't transition at 10 when I first started going to therapy to Broncofan. How is that in agreement with the crap you are accusing me of above?

Define transition; moving, changing from one state of being to another.

Perhaps you should stop making assumptions and just ask plainly like I did.

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 06:55 PM

Both statements by Remy
"That one statement shows an inherent flaw, transsexuals transition from one sex to another"

"I think you are confusing me with someone else, I wasn't making the argument that TS must transition."

If by making the argument you mean flat out saying it in so many words, then you were.

You are taking something I said to Fivekatz out of context;

Funny that some who have gone further with their transition than a TV/CD, take issue with TV/CD

My statement was said to inform fivekatz that tv/cd don't transition at all because they don't want to transition from male to female permanently they just want to occasionally wear the clothes of the opposite sex, that is not the same as transitioning or a transsexual. No transsexual would identify as a man that is CD/TV, they would identify as TS/female that just can't (for whatever reason) transition at that particular moment. There are exceptions to that rule of course because in life there are no absolutes, as has Krissy has pointed out, she labels herself as CD/TV on some sites because it helps her marketing, but she identifies as TS/female.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:08 PM

I haven't agreed/aligned to anything Bella has said

Remy... BE INTELLECTUALLY HONEST, PLEASE!

Do you REALLY not understand what "tacit agreement" is, even though I have explained it? I will try ONE MORE TIME. If you're are not willing to understand this point, this conversation is pointless until you actually state plainly what you do and do not believe regarding the original post (mine) because PLAINLY, I do not know the points you are making at this point.

TACIT AGREEMENT - This occurs when multiple people are having a debate about a given subject. Instead of every single person restating arguments that have already been made, you can be said to "tacitly" (without commenting) agree with them if: A. you defend their points. AND THEN B. you do not state disagreement otherwise. The logical inference is that you agree with all subsequent comments they make UNLESS YOU STATE OTHERWISE.

This is not something I have made up, this is an actual point of debate and of law, whereby you can actually convict someone. I dislike just pointing people to a wiki page because I think that is lame... but if that suits you, look the term up.

What is "utter foolishness" is you trying to comment on a term you don't understand. You MUST have "DEFENDED" someone's point, AND THEN NOT DISAGREE with a subsequent point to be accused of tacit agreement as I have stated. People that you have not had direct discourse with or have not defended have no bearing on the term.

Does that make sense?

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 07:10 PM

Again, you trying to force me to take one side or another, I have my own stance. A transsexual is a person that feels they are born the wrong gender from which they are assigned at birth. That clear enough for you. There is no need for the word 'transition' anywhere in that definition.

I don't feel that CD/TV struggle is the same struggle as TS.

I don't feel that CD/TV should be lumped together in the same group.

I do feel that LGBT organization help the cause of transgender people, though I do think it is not to the same degree as L/G causes, but something is better than nothing.

I do feel all groups of people deserve empathy including CD/TV, well except hate groups, and people that hurt/poach animals, especially those on the endangered list.

Anything else you are still unclear about? I do cry your pardon on any issues/stances that have come across as confusing/conflicting. I'm not going to say I hate/dislike somebody on this board just to make you happy, you are not my puppet master.

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 07:14 PM

Remy... BE INTELLECTUALLY HONEST, PLEASE!

Do you REALLY not understand what "tacit agreement" is, even though I have explained it? I will try ONE MORE TIME. If you're are not willing to understand this point, this conversation is pointless until you actually state plainly what you do and do not believe regarding the original post (mine) because PLAINLY, I do not know the points you are making at this point.

TACIT AGREEMENT - This occurs when multiple people are having a debate about a given subject. Instead of every single person restating arguments that have already been made, you can be said to "tacitly" (without commenting) agree with them if: A. you defend their points. AND THEN B. you do not state disagreement otherwise. The logical inference is that you agree with all subsequent comments they make UNLESS YOU STATE OTHERWISE.

This is not something I have made up, this is an actual point of debate and of law, whereby you can actually convict someone. I dislike just pointing people to a wiki page because I think that is lame... but if that suits you, look the term up.

What is "utter foolishness" is you trying to comment on a term you don't understand. You MUST have "DEFENDED" someone's point, AND THEN NOT DISAGREE with a subsequent point to be accused of tacit agreement as I have stated. People that you have not had direct discourse with or have not defended have no bearing on the term.

Does that make sense?

I have not said I agree or I defend anything that Bella has said. Where do you see me defending Bella? Where do you see me having a Direct Discourse with Bella? Don't label yourself CD/TV on Fetlife and I wont think you CD/TV. Don't mention you choose not to transition and I wont ask you why you choose not to transition. These are all things you are saying, not Bella. I'm not making up the fact that you label yourself CD/TV on Fetlife am I?

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:17 PM

I don't have to word anything the specific way you want just to satisfy what you feel is the only way of agreeing or disagreeing with someone.

"What...[I] feel..." ???

Are you joking? How can you expect to have a reasonable conversation with anyone if there are not "rules" about stating your point of view? Why do you think the "edit" function here is limited to 10 minutes? Because most people realize it is unfair in a debate about anything, especially in writing, to be able to go back and change what you have said. That is why courts have record keepers. That is why police record interrogations. ETC. ETC> Reasonable people expect that if you write something... you mean it. If you write it poorly... you take responsibility for it.

How in God's green earth am I asking anything unreasonable by simply asking that you be:

A. Intellectually honest
B. State plainly what you believe
C. Take responsibility for what you write, including the logical conclusions

THAT IS CALLED HAVING DISCOURSE. If everyone just plays by their own set of rules (i.e. - I can say whatever I want, I don't have to answer your questions, I can change whatever I write to suit my current needs, etc. etc.) you cannot have a meaningful dialogue.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:20 PM

I have not said I agree or I defend anything that Bella has said. Where do you see me defending Bella? Where do you see me having a Direct Discourse with Bella? Don't label yourself CD/TV on Fetlife and I wont think you CD/TV. Don't mention you choose not to transition and I wont ask you why you choose not to transition. These are all things you are saying, not Bella. I'm not making up the fact that you label yourself CD/TV on Fetlife am I?

Answer this plainly.

Do you understand what tacit agreement is? Yes or No. If the answer is yes, please restate it so I know that you understand it.

Then, I will answer you by going through this entire thread and picking out every instance where you have agreed with something that Bella has stated, by defending it. Actually, no, I will pick out the first. THEN, YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY DISAGREED WITH HER. That is fair.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:24 PM

Don't label yourself CD/TV on Fetlife and I wont think you CD/TV. Don't mention you choose not to transition and I wont ask you why you choose not to transition. These are all things you are saying, not Bella. I'm not making up the fact that you label yourself CD/TV on Fetlife am I?

GOOD GRIEF. I kinda had hope for you. I kinda thought you may be someone who is reasonable.

Like I said, when in discussions like this, this is what it always comes down to. "You're CD so shut up." Nice.

Do you NOT understand the concept of marketing? Social Media Profiles, Websites, Google + pages... it is MARKETING. I market my site TO THOSE who are my largest audience. I know this is my largest audience because I have done the research.

If my largest audience was "Guys who love using peanut butter as hair gel" guess what all my profiles would say... "I love using peanut butter as hair gel." Is this concept of marketing yourself really that difficult to grasp?

broncofan

07-26-2013, 07:25 PM

You are taking something I said to Fivekatz out of context;

My statement was said to inform fivekatz that tv/cd don't transition at all because they don't want to transition from male to female permanently they just want to occasionally wear the clothes of the opposite sex, that is not the same as transitioning or a transsexual. No transsexual would identify as a man that is CD/TV, they would identify as TS/female that just can't (for whatever reason) transition at that particular moment. There are exceptions to that rule of course because in life there are no absolutes, as has Krissy has pointed out, she labels herself as CD/TV on some sites because it helps her marketing, but she identifies as TS/female.
Even accounting for the context, by saying that transsexuals transition, you are saying this is a necessary, indispensable property of being transsexual. You may not have meant that, but that's what the clause, "transsexuals transition from one sex to another" means.

You also said, "we transwomen are dealing with all the factors of living the life of a woman 24/7". This strongly implies that living life as a woman 24/7 is required to be a transwoman. But now you say that you never said transitioning was required.

I can quote a bunch of times when you would say something fairly extreme and then contradict it. How about these statements?

"If he said he felt like he was born in the wrong body and felt he needed to transition than I would consider him transsexual"

Then when I pointed out you were agreeing with me.

"Well let's be clear on this, TV and CD do not ever ALWAYS identify as female"

You also assured me of two things. You were not using the word identify in the second statement to mean "present oneself as" or "dress as", and you were not using a circular definition of tv and cd that precluded transsexuality.

The only explanation for these posts is that you were agreeing with Bella but only for convenience. When Krissy returned, so did your conscience, if not your honesty. C'est la vie.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:33 PM

At the end of the day, as I stated, I thought you were CD because of the use of the term on your site (which you perfectly explained and I accept) not because of anything Bella said. I said I "don't support whatever Bella is getting at" that ultimately is on you to feel that that is not enough disagreement, you are clearly looking for people to take sides and it has to be either yours or Bella's, but I'm my own individual person and have my own thoughts on matters that I can choose to or not to speak upon as I see fit. It really seems like no matter how I would have worded it you still would have felt I was only saying it because of Bella. It popped into my head because YOU said "I have CHOSEN (I actually have the financial capability to do so) NOT to actually transition at this point in life" I thought it was awesome that you wanted to transition at all, I had no idea you wanted to transition because on your Fetlife page you choose to label yourself not as MtF but as CD/TV. If you feel that for marketing purposes its better to label yourself CD/TV even though you are MtF on social networks that's fine, get that money girl.

So, do you agree or disagree that when someone writes:

"I don't want to be a jerk but... your face looks like pizza."

...they are actually making a very nice, cordial statement about a person's beauty? I think most reasonable people see it as, "being a jerk".

Do you REALLY not see that you did just that?

If I said,

Remy... I don't want to be a jerk but... your photography skills are absolute garbage (and no, I don't actually believe this just to be clear).

You wouldn't take that as a "personal" attack? Really? Intellectual honesty?

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:41 PM

Define transition; moving, changing from one state of being to another.

THIS is your definition of "transition" within the context of this discussion? Let me tell you... MOST "academic" TS would slaughter that definition as too broad. Even I, who have a pretty lenient definition (i.e. - you don't have to) would say that is so generic as to be unusable in any real context.

By this stated definition, as long as one HAS EVEN THOUGHT about it (transitioning), that is, put forth a plan in his/her mind, they are "transitioning" because they have started that process of "moving," "changing from one state of being to another". That is to say, all actions begin with a thought.

Do you see what I mean by YOU MUST THINK THINGS THROUGH... and take RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT YOU WRITE? I'll give you a mulligan on this one to restate it... unless this is truly what you actually believe... in which case, fair enough and that is the definition of "transition" that I will refer to when speaking with you.

But trust me, if that is your definition, you have really no ability to speak on other person's "transitional" status AT ALL.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:43 PM

Perhaps you should stop making assumptions and just ask plainly like I did.

The assumptions I have made are based upon a reasonable understanding of the way discourse works.

I have asked several "plainly" asked questions that you have not made. But, let's just try this one again:

What, plainly, do you agree with Bella on?

What, plainly do you NOT agree with Bella on?

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:45 PM

Again, you trying to force me to take one side or another, I have my own stance.

I am unclear about this (this is sarcasm)...

What do you think a discussion is?

Of course, I am trying to force you to not straddle a fence.

Of course I am trying to make you think your thought processes through and figure out exactly what you are saying for yourself.

Of course I expect that you will have your own stance.

That is what discourse is, and all I have asked for from the beginning. Let YOUR arguments stand on their own merits.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 07:56 PM

I don't feel that CD/TV struggle is the same struggle as TS.

I don't feel that CD/TV should be lumped together in the same group.

I do feel that LGBT organization help the cause of transgender people, though I do think it is not to the same degree as L/G causes, but something is better than nothing.

I do feel all groups of people deserve empathy including CD/TV, well except hate groups, and people that hurt/poach animals, especially those on the endangered list.

Anything else you are still unclear about? I do cry your pardon on any issues/stances that have come across as confusing/conflicting. I'm not going to say I hate/dislike somebody on this board just to make you happy, you are not my puppet master.

EDIT: Added in as a point:

Your .5 point.
I agree. (BTW you DISAGREE with Bella on this subject then at the core argument? Why not just state that?)[END EDIT]

Your first point.
I have already stated my view on that and we are in agreement.

Your second point.
That is a logical inference from the first point... already answered.

Your third point.
I agree.

Your fourth point.
I agree.

Your last point... Look... you clearly did not understand the concept of "tacit agreement" in this discussion and I understand that now.

Thus, my own arguments that I've had with you are flawed because they are holding you to a term you don't (won't?) understand. I accept that and I apologize for getting heated about it. I think/feel sometimes that people are choosing NOT to understand a term because it suits their argument and I have no patience for that, and I thought that is what you were doing here because I had (I thought) clearly defined the term. You have clearly demonstrated that you really don't (didn't - hopefully) understand the term and implications of "tacit agreement".

Let's end this. I have a lot to do today and we are arguing semantics at this point instead of having an actual discussion.

In the future though, please understand that people used to debating and having discussions will hold you accountable for things you defend on behalf of someone else and then do not vocalize dissent over when you disagree. You do everyone involved in a discussion a disservice when you are brave enough to defend a person's opinion but not brave enough to vocalize when you disagree with them.

Fair enough?

broncofan

07-26-2013, 08:02 PM

No transsexual would identify as a man that is CD/TV, they would identify as TS/female that just can't (for whatever reason) transition at that particular moment.
Alright, let's forget the transsexuals transition because you were just not using precise words. Fair enough. But this is the problem I was having.

We sort of agreed that crossdresser is someone who dresses as female part-time. That is the sum total of the definition. Don't try to import other words into the definition by using subsidiary clauses ("as a man that is cd/tv").

What I was saying is that someone who dresses as female part-time is not precluded from being transsexual on account of the fact that they have not transitioned. The definition of gender dysphoria that Bella linked does not require transitioning as a pre-requisite to having an "experienced gender" of female.

I never said that CD/TV's are TS' or anything close to that. What I said is that someone's physical presentation does not determine their gender identification. That was the argument with Bella and with you. You bent over backwards not to agree. But it seems to me that you do actually agree, but were temporarily saying otherwise.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 08:13 PM

I'm going to throw this out there as a general question because this is something VERY few in the TS community can actually give a cohesive and logical answer to.

Definitions:
CD - M who derives sexual gratification from wearing F clothing
TS - Person who believes they have been born into the wrong body

Can a CD and a TS exist as the same person?

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 08:19 PM

I think it's a matter of opinion. I personally don't think so. If a CD did think they were born in the wrong body I don't know why they would get sexual gratification from wearing female clothing.

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 08:20 PM

It depends on the clothing too. I'm referring to casual clothing. Most people feel sexy wearing fishnets, etc.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 08:28 PM

I don't see anything internally inconsistent with those two definitions.

If a CD thought she was born in the wrong body, why would she get sexual gratification from wearing women's clothing? Perhaps she is sexually gratified by being able to dress in a manner consistent with her gender identity. There are many reasons someone can find sexual gratification from the act of dressing a particular way. Perhaps she feels more attractive dressing this way, and being more attractive is a turn-on. Edit: I also recognize as Lily is alluding to, the POSSIBILITY that some crossdressers may identify as male and are turned on by dressing inconsistently with that. I just don't think it's the only possibility.

The most common definition I found for cross-dresser is:
"someone who dresses in clothing characteristic for the opposite sex".

With this definition, there's even less reason to speculate because it doesn't require discussion of the origin of sexual gratification, something people don't agree on.

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 08:30 PM

Well whats on the lines between wanting to be attractive vs. sexual gratification? I love to be attractive, but I don't get a boner when I get dressed.

broncofan

07-26-2013, 08:37 PM

Well whats on the lines between wanting to be attractive vs. sexual gratification? I love to be attractive, but I don't get a boner when I get dressed.
Generally, people are less likely to be aroused if they feel unattractive. Someone who is uncomfortable with their appearance might get some sexual gratification by dressing in a manner that makes them feel more attractive. It's not going to be a universal.

Anyhow, this is a bit closer to the definition of transvestite than cross-dresser from what I've seen:

Transvestite: a person and especially a male who adopts the dress and often the behavior typical of the opposite sex especially for purposes of emotional or sexual gratification

A cross-dresser from most definitions seems to include everything but the last part about sexual gratification. Notice though that this definition of transvestite says for emotional OR sexual gratification purposes. Therefore it doesn't require acute arousal.

robertlouis

07-26-2013, 08:42 PM

Hmmm. Given where Lily started out with this thread 17 pages ago, the ensuing and occasionally fiery debate might seem to confirm the views of the strident gays and lesbians about fragmentation among the "T" part of the acronym. Just sayin'. :(

LilyRox

07-26-2013, 09:00 PM

CD - M who derives sexual gratification from wearing F clothing
TS - Person who believes they have been born into the wrong body

For both of these to be completely true. I think it would require someone who loves girls (bisexual or lesbian) and someone who is literally in love with their self.

Because if they truly think they are in the wrong body when they look into the mirror at their self when they're dressed, they are seeing what they believe is their true inner self.

I don't think it's entirely impossible, but I think it's exceedingly rare. There are rare cases of people (cis/trans) who get off to seeing their true inner self in the mirror.

It's important to note that you truly feel like your inner self, otherwise; it would be on the border lines of taboo (fetish) and being sexual aroused by someone you know your not.

Lol this thread is all over the place

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 09:32 PM

Well whats on the lines between wanting to be attractive vs. sexual gratification? I love to be attractive, but I don't get a boner when I get dressed.

You have a fascination with boners. :) (That is a joke... not meant as serious).

But, that does make the point... sexual gratification does not actually mean you have a boner, as you suggest. Some Crossdressers (and I have spoken to some) just like the feeling of coming home after a day of work and putting on women's clothing. There is nothing overtly "sexual" about it. It is simply gratifying, relaxing, or soothing to them.

trish

07-26-2013, 09:41 PM

To harken back to the OP’s original question, it seems to me that the last decade has seen a stupendous change of social attitude toward gays and lesbians and that attitudes toward transsexuals have changed in parallel if not in scale.

The political efforts and the support of many different groups over the past several decades slowly pushed the recognition and acceptance of diverse gender identities into the public consciousness. Protests, parades, letter campaigns, lobbying, canvassing for candidates, people coming out etc. etc. Lesbians, gays, transsexuals, transgender, feminists, bisexuals, intersexuals, queers, straight allies, etc. etc. have all helped to advanced cultural mores in our direction. LGBT is not an official acronym, not an official organization. It doesn’t contain a letter for every contributor. It is a social movement. A movement that has got some real inertia. We’re included, if we want to be. We’re right there in the letter T. All we need to do is continue the fight, and support each other. I really don’t see why a transsexual would be against this movement, or why a transsexual would want to ostracize herself from it. Perhaps fear that one might be confused with the gay cross-dresser protesting along side you? Fuck that. Embrace him. He’s on your side. You should be on his.

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 09:48 PM

Remy757Photog

07-26-2013, 09:56 PM

"You're CD so shut up." Nice.

Do you NOT understand the concept of marketing? Social Media Profiles, Websites, Google + pages... it is MARKETING. I market my site TO THOSE who are my largest audience. I know this is my largest audience because I have done the research.

If my largest audience was "Guys who love using peanut butter as hair gel" guess what all my profiles would say... "I love using peanut butter as hair gel." Is this concept of marketing yourself really that difficult to grasp?

I've never told you to shut up so calm down. you are having your own conversation with yourself and pretending I'm saying these things to you. I'm simply pointing out why i thought you were CD until you explained that you are in fact ts and that CD was only for marketing purposes. I have barely had any conversations with you, I don't sit on this forum following your every post. I only knew that you called yourself CD on fet because ayear ago you told me you joined Fetlife and when i went to your profile it says CD/tv. we have not spoken personally to each other since then, so I wasn't aware that you only put CD on your fet profile for marketing until this thread when you explained such, and itotally accept and respect that. on my profile it says lesbian so guess what, people think I'm lesbian until I tell them otherwise. I don't understand why that is hard for you to understand. I'm not coming from your mystical place of CD/TV hate land which even if I was wouldn't apply to you as you are ts!

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 10:05 PM

I've never told you to shut up so calm down. you are having your own conversation with yourself and pretending I'm saying these things to you. I'm simply pointing out why i thought you were CD until you explained that you are in fact ts and that CD was only for marketing purposes. I have barely had any conversations with you, I don't sit on this forum following your every post. I only knew that you called yourself CD on fet because ayear ago you told me you joined Fetlife and when i went to your profile it says CD/tv. we have not spoken personally to each other since then, so I wasn't aware that you only put CD on your fet profile for marketing until this thread when you explained such, and itotally accept and respect that. on my profile it says lesbian so guess what, people think I'm lesbian until I tell them otherwise. I don't understand why that is hard for you to understand. I'm not coming from your mystical place of CD/TV hate land which even if I was wouldn't apply to you as you are ts!

Remy...

The POINT is this.

WHY WAS IT PERTINENT TO THE CONVERSATION AT ALL?

WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BRING MY GENDER IDENTIFICATION INTO THE CONVERSATION AT ALL?

STATE YOUR PURPOSE FOR BRINGING IT UP.

Just answer (honestly) those two questions and state your response to the statement.

Here is your answer... like it or not. And, yes, after I write this, you can indeed (RIGHTFULLY THIS TIME) accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

You thought you were being clever. You thought if you could get me to admit or prove that I identify as CD/TV, then your arguments would have a more solid foundation. Plain and simple. When I had an actual reason, you had to backtrack out... and you did it poorly. Instead of just apologizing and saying, "Hey, you know what... I could have posed the question better. Sorry." YOU MADE EXCUSES for it. This logically implies that you understood what you had done and had a motive behind it. It wasn't just a, "Nice day, isn't it?" type of question. AT ALL. To say it was is absolutely ludicrous and completely, intellectually dishonest.

BBaggins06

07-26-2013, 10:06 PM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7CN9NO2FoYs

GroobyKrissy

07-26-2013, 10:21 PM

I've never told you to shut up so calm down. you are having your own conversation with yourself and pretending I'm saying these things to you.

I love this line of reasoning... "I didn't actually say the words so Krissy must be making it up."

Good grief.

Fine, let's just re-fucking-hash this whole conversation and pretend.

Let's pretend that to your question, I said, "Yes, I identify as a CD/TV and that is it. I love dressing up in lacy panties and I get a big, fat boner doing it. That is my whole fucking purpose in life."

What would you very next line have been? Let's have some intellectual honesty here. I'm guessing it would be (maybe said a tiny bit nicer)...

"Then shut the fuck up. What gives you the right to speak about "Trans" issues, you silly CD." (If not said directly from you, DEFINITELY said directly from Bella - with no disagreement voiced by you.)

Anyone have a difficult time believing this would have transpired had my answer been different?

That is why you brought up the question in the first place. That is why you thought you were so clever by going to a Fetlife profile, by referencing terms I use on my site... For God's sake. Just admit it and be done with it. I've already agreed to let this conversation go but you just keep on digging your hole to fill with shitty nonsense (and yes, this is me starting to become irritated now because you have ceased even trying to make any attempt at being intellectually honest).

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 12:12 AM

I really don’t see why a transsexual would be against this movement, or why a transsexual would want to ostracize herself from it. Perhaps fear that one might be confused with the gay cross-dresser protesting along side you? Fuck that. Embrace him. He’s on your side. You should be on his.

This is my issue with this entire discussion: if CD/TV people actually were for the cause of progress for all gender/orientation variant people, and not just for validation (read: patronization) as 'women,' or their silly bathroom 'rights,' I would agree with you entirely. But they don't. And they don't. Crossdressers hide out from their wives and kids in dingy hotel rooms and take selfies of themselves dressed like 15-year olds when they're 50.

That said, I don't want to be confused with someone who is intent on forcing society to change the way they view the gender spectrum as opposed to just changing themselves to at least attempt to assimilate with it (as opposed to those who prefer to be a member of a counter-culture, which is actually a large apart of what this whole thing is really about), and all under the guise of 'solidarity.' There is no solidarity. They and we present the mainstream with entirely different narratives, and I'm sorry, but ours is immeasurably more important than theirs.

The biggest kick? Krissy is a self-identified CD. If she didn't think there was anything wrong with that, she wouldn't have removed her own circumstances from her consideration of the rest of her argument for CD acceptance, and she certainly wouldn't be defensively claiming TS status instead, just because she felt like she was pressed to do so for acceptance by someone who is TS. She'd just say, 'yeah, I'm a CD, what of it?' But she didn't.

That's an inferiority complex, plain and simple. And it proves everything I've said in this thread about CD/TV people intentionally identifying their gender based on convenience, not identity. They can't do that once they transition. They lose their male privilege permanently. As I've said, that's not a choice; it's ambivalence - a non-choice, if you will. If she said she was genderqueer, that would be one thing, but this is playing both sides.

Krissy's not only wrong here, she's the living embodiment of my entire argument: defensive and keen to say whatever is necessary to save face.
And for the record, I tried REALLY hard to put this point as gently as possible. Krissy's obsessive arguing with herself makes it very difficult. Please don't shoot the messenger.

And finally, the idea that anybody here would take my side in an argument simply because they're one of my sycophants is hysterical; I don't have any of those. I'm the proud pariah around here. You can't have that both ways, either.

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 12:18 AM

WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BRING MY GENDER IDENTIFICATION INTO THE CONVERSATION AT ALL?

Umm... you did, when you decided that it was OK to label yourself whatever is convenient at any given moment, i.e. in 'marketing.' Which is the real you? The CD in your websites or the TS you claim to be? It's been your intent to keep us guessing and make yourself a victim.

You have outrighted admitted that you vary your stated identity to achieve certain results. You're exactly the kind of person we're talking about on this thread. And then instead of defending it, you blame Remy for bringing it up at all?

You need help.

~BB~

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 12:18 AM

Points for trying, Bella!

You are wondrously amusing.

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 12:24 AM

Points for trying, Bella!

You are wondrously amusing.

Enjoying your manic episode, are you? :lol:

It's disappointing that you're still too scared to debate me directly on the merits, so please, continue using Remy as my proxy, even though she isn't.

I'm sure that will help you win friends and influence people.

~BB~

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 12:27 AM

There's no fear at all.

Past history has proven, without any doubt, that you cannot reason logically and you will NOT be intellectually honest... about anything. That is why I have chosen not to engage you on this matter.

I have already stated here, if anyone sees merit in what you say, and wants me to address it, quote it to me and I will address them. You can read my response and you're free to go ahead with your dribble.

No fear at all. Thus far, nobody has taken me up on that offer... not sure what that says about your points...

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 12:31 AM

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 12:35 AM

Yup. Sweet, right?

fivekatz

07-27-2013, 12:53 AM

Well I think people should be free to do whatever they wish as far as their how they conduct their sex lives and because one person transitions with hormones and surgery and another chooses to dress as the opposite sex does not make either person "bad".

I have say that I am surprised at some of venom towards CD/TV. Then again I was surprised to learn how homophobic African-Americans could be but the 2008 election in CA where same sex marriage was made illegal was largely accomplished by the huge church going, African Americans that turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama.

Popular opinion or not I believe that people should be able to act out their identity and sexual desires as the see fit and long as they aren't doing harm to others. And victims of the ignorance of prejudice should IMHO live and let live.

IMO we should all defend the rights of people to be whoever they are whether it i a transitioning person, a total transitioned person, a CD/TV, gay, lesbian or heterosexual. We don't have to make the same choices as others but we should IMHO defend their right to be whatever they want so long as they obey the laws of the land.

There are lots of battles to be fought on this front and there is something fucked up about the idea that a CD/TV wouldn't be able to count on having their back not just TS but all people of goodwill.

Remy757Photog

07-27-2013, 01:12 AM

Remy...

The POINT is this.

WHY WAS IT PERTINENT TO THE CONVERSATION AT ALL?

I was curious because you brought it to my attention.

WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BRING MY GENDER IDENTIFICATION INTO THE CONVERSATION AT ALL?

You did, not me. I didn't ask you why you chose to not transition until you openly stated in this thread that you chose not to transition. It never concerned me before.

STATE YOUR PURPOSE FOR BRINGING IT UP.

Just answer (honestly) those two questions and state your response to the statement.

Here is your answer... like it or not. And, yes, after I write this, you can indeed (RIGHTFULLY THIS TIME) accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

You thought you were being clever. You thought if you could get me to admit or prove that I identify as CD/TV, then your arguments would have a more solid foundation. Plain and simple. When I had an actual reason, you had to backtrack out... and you did it poorly. Instead of just apologizing and saying, "Hey, you know what... I could have posed the question better. Sorry." YOU MADE EXCUSES for it. This logically implies that you understood what you had done and had a motive behind it. It wasn't just a, "Nice day, isn't it?" type of question. AT ALL. To say it was is absolutely ludicrous and completely, intellectually dishonest.

I didn't make any excuses, I simply answered your question. Which I have repeatedly done. The problem is, you won't accept any answer except the words you have put in my mouth above. You keep assuming that anything I say except what you type is a lie, instead of just taking me at my word. I suspect this is because of some deep seated issue you have with negative experiences with the TS community.

I stated earlier in the thread well before asking about your transition, that I don't feel TS have a problem with CD/TV themselves, just TS being grouped together by mainstream society viewing CD/TV/TS as all the same thing just different monikers. I have stated multiple times that I have friends that are CD, so why would I pick on anyone that is CD like you keep claiming I am trying to do to you. I have asked TS all manner of questions concerning when they started transition, how old they were, how long on hormones, I've asked girls why they decided to de-transition, every question under the rainbow and you are the only one who has ever responded so vehemently.

This is a trans forum, yet you get upset because someone who knows barely anything about you is asking about trans issues, fair enough. Now I know that anything concerning you and trans issues that affect you directly are off limits. Why would I ask you how nice the day is when I can look outside and see for myself. What I can't do, is get to know anything about Krissy the person, without asking, but again you make it clear that question about you shouldn't be asked even when you, yourself bring up the topic. It's clear that you feel I was taking Bella side, despite my saying (repeatedly) I am not and that you have some anger issues toward her, so I'm just going to bow out now as this is getting no where at all. By the way, I actually did apologize.

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 01:29 AM

I was curious because you brought it to my attention.

You did, not me. I didn't ask you why you chose to not transition until you openly stated in this thread that you chose not to transition. It never concerned me before.

So, if it was just PERSONAL curiosity, and had no bearing on your argument... you couldn't have just PM'd me and asked?

Do you see why I say you NEED to watch what you write, AND take responsibility for your comments and the conclusions that people are going to reasonably draw from them?

When you include something like that in a discussion, the REASONABLE conclusion is that you're asking with a motive. The only discernible motive is what I have already stated.

Here is the difference between you and I, Remy:
Fair enough. Thanks for answering directly this time. I accept your explanation, and although I don't agree with the reasons, fine. I won't pick apart the issue anymore on that point.

I would ask in the future, if you have a personal question that has no bearing on your argument, that you ask it privately.

I am willing to give people benefit of the doubt once they've expressed themselves clearly. Do I have the same courtesy? Apparently not.

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 01:54 AM

I suspect this is because of some deep seated issue you have with negative experiences with the TS community.

So, you're saying that because you and I have tangled here, that this discussion represents some "deep seated issue" I have with the TS community?

Couldn't I just as easily say, "I suspect this is because of some deep seated issue YOU have with negative experiences with the CD/TV community."

Do you see where this "blame game" leads? It is ultimately pointless.

SHORTENED and, BOLD MINE

I have asked TS all manner of questions concerning when they started transition, how old they were, how long on hormones, I've asked girls why they decided to de-transition, every question under the rainbow and you are the only one who has ever responded so vehemently.

These questions are not even comparative in the least bit here (no wonder I am the only one), and this information is completely non-pertinent...to anything, anyway.

Did you ask me, "When did you start transition?" "How old were you when you started transition?" etc. etc. NO. You questioned my gender identity outright based on assumptions you took from my usage of terms on various profiles, etc. Try doing this to the next model you shoot. Start out your conversation by saying, "I was on this website somewhere and it referenced you as a CD. Why do you think I should be shooting you for a TS site?" See how well that goes over and get back to me once your black eye has healed.

There is no context for the questions you are saying you have asked and thus, cannot be accurately judged whether they were approached, carefully, considerately, and etc. etc. Surely you do not think you had that same approach in THIS instance?

What I can judge is what you did here. I've already stated I won't pick on that point and I won't go back on that except to ask,

So you feel that you share absolutely NO responsibility for my response back to you... at all?

This is a trans forum, yet you get upset because someone who knows barely anything about you is asking about trans issues, fair enough. Now I know that anything concerning you and trans issues that affect you directly are off limits. Why would I ask you how nice the day is when I can look outside and see for myself. What I can't do, is get to know anything about Krissy the person, without asking, but again you make it clear that question about you shouldn't be asked even when you, yourself bring up the topic. It's clear that you feel I was taking Bella side, despite my saying (repeatedly) I am not and that you have some anger issues toward her, so I'm just going to bow out now as this is getting no where at all. By the way, I actually did apologize.

Oh... I didn't know this was a TRANS FORUM... thanks for the info!

Now who is pretending what the other is saying...?

Did I, or did I not answer your question... however crude I thought it was? Does my answering of it not give me the right to question why it was asked in the first place? Something you have not stated plainly until now.

Can you please tell me ONE (just one) question that you have posed that I have not answered? So I'm not sure how you're getting that you can't ask questions about me... I, in fact answered your question(s) even though I thought it was in poor taste. I even stated that I would give you the benefit of the doubt ("No offense taken"), which changed once you wrote a reply.

I have asked you SEVERAL QUESTIONS (plainly stated as you requested) that you have not answered or addressed (I will list them upon request). So who is dodging the questions... you or me?

Where is said apology written in a meaningful way with the full context intact? I mean, I see what, I guess, could be maybe an apology of sorts...surrounded by excuses...

I find it interesting that people can be "so articulate" when making a negative point, but then get so "inarticulate" when it comes to writing a simple apology.

robertlouis

07-27-2013, 02:39 AM

trish

07-27-2013, 02:44 AM

This is my issue with this entire discussion: if CD/TV people actually were for the cause of progress for all gender/orientation variant people, and not just for validation (read: patronization) as 'women,' or their silly bathroom 'rights,' I would agree with you entirely. But they don't. And they don't. Crossdressers hide out from their wives and kids in dingy hotel rooms and take selfies of themselves dressed like 15-year olds when they're 50.

That said, I don't want to be confused with someone who is intent on forcing society to change the way they view the gender spectrum as opposed to just changing themselves to at least attempt to assimilate with it (as opposed to those who prefer to be a member of a counter-culture, which is actually a large apart of what this whole thing is really about), and all under the guise of 'solidarity.' There is no solidarity. They and we present the mainstream with entirely different narratives, and I'm sorry, but ours is immeasurably more important than theirs...

It's alright if you don't feel solidarity with gays, lesbians, other transsexuals or the whole diversity of the gender spectrum fighting for their acceptance and their rights. I hope it's not simply out of disgust for CDs, TVs and your perception of their motives.

My understanding is that the transformation of public attitudes is real. Most young people have no problems with LGBT issues. Acceptance is growing among older people as more and more of their children, friends and relatives come out (because we finally live in times...thanks to past activism...when it's safe to come out). A decade ago it would have been unheard of for a family to accept their child's gender dysphoria and consider as a real possibility the child's transitioning. Supporters of LGBT issues are no longer a counter-culture. They are mothers, fathers, grandparents, teachers, friends...they are everywhere. True, these changes in public attitude did not happen all by themselves. They were indeed initiated decades ago by a counter-culture that was humiliated, beaten and then angered. Today they are no longer a counter-culture. Today they have open solidarity with people of all sorts of persuasions. And though the public was encouraged toward more general acceptance by activism, media etc., they weren't forced by anything but their own sense of decency.

Rest assured, we won't confuse you with someone who is intent on forcing society to change the way they view the gender spectrum or as a member of any counter-culture. You are your own person.

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 02:56 AM

Today they are no longer a counter-culture.

I have to disagree with this. While overall, LGBT people have become more a subculture than a counter-culture, to strip it of the latter status is to imply that because more people accept it than has historically been the case, the battle is over. Far from it.

Otherwise, thanks for your input. You're balanced, understanding, and reasonable as usual... unlike some people. And I love that about you. :D

~BB~

robertlouis

07-27-2013, 02:59 AM

It's alright if you don't feel solidarity with gays, lesbians, other transsexuals or the whole diversity of the gender spectrum fighting for their acceptance and their rights. I hope it's not simply out of disgust for CDs, TVs and your perception of their motives.

My understanding is that the transformation of public attitudes is real. Most young people have no problems with LGBT issues. Acceptance is growing among older people as more and more of their children, friends and relatives come out (because we finally live in times...thanks to past activism...when it's safe to come out). A decade ago it would have been unheard of for a family to accept their child's gender dysphoria and consider as a real possibility the child's transitioning. Supporters of LGBT issues are no longer a counter-culture. They are mothers, fathers, grandparents, teachers, friends...they are everywhere. True, these changes in public attitude did not happen all by themselves. They were indeed initiated decades ago by a counter-culture that was humiliated, beaten and then angered. Today they are no longer a counter-culture. Today they have open solidarity with people of all sorts of persuasions. And though the public was encouraged toward more general acceptance by activism, media etc., they weren't forced by anything but their own sense of decency.

Rest assured, we won't confuse you with someone who is intent on forcing society to change the way they view the gender spectrum or as a member of any counter-culture. You are your own person.

While I agree that immense progress has been made on both sides of the Atlantic on bringing transgender issues and rights in from the shadows, I'm seriously disheartened to see and hear all the internal debates and sniping within every part of the transgender spectrum.

Your enemies are the entrenched republicans, churches, religious fundamentalists of all flavours and the bigots in the media and the general population, not the gays or the crossdressers.

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 03:05 AM

Compliment...

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:07 AM

Your enemies are the entrenched republicans, churches, religious fundamentalists of all flavours and the bigots in the media and the general population, not the gays or the crossdressers.

Thank you for pointing that out, Sun Tzu. :lol:

The truth is that L, G, and CD people are not our enemies, but they are not necessarily our friends. They're our allies due to our common enemy, but each group also has its own agenda and identity, and each needs to be preserved even as we may explore ways to focus on our similarities.

We're like the mafia. Each group is a crime family, and we're usually at war, but we band together when the flatfoots start confiscating the hooch. It's a marriage of convenience, plain and simple. Once it stops being convenient, the 'weakest' get thrown under the bus, and that's usually the T (to bring this thread back on topic).

~BB~

robertlouis

07-27-2013, 03:11 AM

Thank you for pointing that out, Sun Tzu. :lol:

The truth is that L, G, and CD people are not our enemies, but they are not necessarily our friends. They're our allies due to our common enemy, but each group also has its own agenda and identity, and each needs to be preserved even as we may explore ways to focus on our similarities.

We're like the mafia. Each group is a crime family, and we're usually at war, but we band together when the flatfoots start confiscating the hooch. It's a marriage of convenience, plain and simple. Once it stops being convenient, the 'weakest' get thrown under the bus, and that's usually the T (to bring this thread back on topic).

~BB~

OK, Bella, it's a statement of the blindingly obvious, but after 20+ pages of argument and dissent it might just be worth pointing out.

Lousy analogy, but if the republican side hadn't imploded amongst squabbles during the Spanish Civil War, Franco might have been defeated in 1936.

Remember who the enemy is.

GroobyKrissy

07-27-2013, 03:11 AM

Gather agreement...

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:15 AM

Remember who the enemy is.

I know this. Remember who I am. :whistle:

~BB~

robertlouis

07-27-2013, 03:16 AM

I know this. Remember who I am. :whistle:

~BB~

Sorry BB. :oops:

Some unnecessary sloganeering there.

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:17 AM

Otherwise, thanks for your input. You're balanced, understanding, and reasonable as usual... unlike some people. And I love that about you. :D

~BB~
I will state this without a hint of insult. Your first post to Krissy you called her a verbose windbag. You have at times insulted myself, Fivekatz, and NYSPROD. Instead of having a civil argument you have recommended others look at the amateur sissy thread, you have called people closeted homosexuals, obtuse, marble-headed, posted pictures of a person in a dunce's cap while ironically posting a DSM definition that undermined your own argument. You've posted a picture of a chicken taking a dump.

All of this is not too out of place on any online forum but when you say you like balanced, understanding, and reasonable people it sounds very disingenuous. Are these the actions of a "balanced, understanding and reasonable" person. I mean this genuinely?

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:23 AM

I will state this without a hint of insult. Your first post to Krissy you called her a verbose windbag. You have at times insulted myself, Fivekatz, and NYSPROD. Instead of having a civil argument you have recommended others look at the amateur sissy thread, you have called people closeted homosexuals, obtuse, marble-headed, posted pictures of a person in a dunce's cap while ironically posting a DSM definition that undermined your own argument. You've posted a picture of a chicken taking a dump.

I stand by my methods. As to the DSM thing:

Gender Incongruence (in Adolescents or Adults) [1]

A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators: [2, 3, 4]

1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

6. a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

So it's about 'desire and conviction,' as well as 'incongruence.' Do I really have to spell everything out for you?! :?

This is precisely why I resort to the tactics that I do. You people are thick. You blatantly deny and dismiss evidence on the basis of cognitive dissonance. You preach gender theory as if it's religious and yet not one of you is actually trans. :geek:

That said, why the fuck do I even bother? Deuces. Have fun arguing amongst your uninformed selves. :yayo:

~BB~

LilyRox

07-27-2013, 03:24 AM

I really don’t see why a transsexual would be against this movement, or why a transsexual would want to ostracize herself from it. Perhaps fear that one might be confused with the gay cross-dresser protesting along side you? Fuck that. Embrace him. He’s on your side. You should be on his.

Possibly because trans always get back seated in LGBT? It's always about Lesbians and Gay people first when it comes to LGBT. Transgender people hardly ever get a say in it. No, there are gay/lesbian people in LGBT that hate on transgender people. Why would I want to be beside someone who doesn't like me and I'm suppose to be grateful I'm in their community? Don't let anyone kid you, LGBT will always be pro Gay/Lesbian rights before transgender people will get the lucky leftovers for rights.

Do transgender people and gay/lesbian people go through similar struggles? Yes, but it's entirely different the problems they face in different matters. In no way do I see how transgender people should have to be such a small percent in a movement like that. We're a minority within a minority and even shunned by our some of our own members in LGBT. It doesn't take a genius to look at a timeline to figure out LGBT's motives as far as rights go. The only thing they really need transgender people for is extra signatures for petitions.

If transgender people want actual rights within my life time I see it as we have to group together as a majority to come up with rights we need passed specifically for the transgender community (transitioning stuff). The fact is the majority of LGBT just don't give a fuck to push stuff directly related to transgender people if it doesn't affect the gay/lesbian community in a positive way.

I'm not going to sugarcoat the LGBT community, because the advertising of equality is full of shit. One can not be a equal community if they don't even treat their own members as one. Let's just say it, it's the Lesbian/Gay community with bisexual and transgender people tagging along.

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:31 AM

robertlouis

07-27-2013, 03:37 AM

Possibly because trans always get back seated in LGBT? It's always about Lesbians and Gay people first when it comes to LGBT. Transgender people hardly ever get a say in it. No, there are gay/lesbian people in LGBT that hate on transgender people. Why would I want to be beside someone who doesn't like me and I'm suppose to be grateful I'm in their community? Don't let anyone kid you, LGBT will always be pro Gay/Lesbian rights before transgender people will get the lucky leftovers for rights.

Do transgender people and gay/lesbian people go through similar struggles? Yes, but it's entirely different the problems they face in different matters. In no way do I see how transgender people should have to be such a small percent in a movement like that. We're a minority within a minority and even shunned by our some of our own members in LGBT. It doesn't take a genius to look at a timeline to figure out LGBT's motives as far as rights go. The only thing they really need transgender people for is extra signatures for petitions.

If transgender people want actual rights within my life time I see it as we have to group together as a majority to come up with rights we need passed specifically for the transgender community (transitioning stuff). The fact is the majority of LGBT just don't give a fuck to push stuff directly related to transgender people if it doesn't affect the gay/lesbian community in a positive way.

I'm not going to sugarcoat the LGBT community, because the advertising of equality is full of shit. One can not be a equal community if they don't even treat their own members as one. Let's just say it, it's the Lesbian/Gay community with bisexual and transgender people tagging along.

I pretty much agree with all of that, Lily. After all, it's well-known that gays and lesbians both in terms of their institutions and individually don't necessarily get on that well, except when campaigns are to be fought and gains made, like gay marriage here in the UK.

To that extent LGBT is pretty much a flag of convenience to rally round when times are tough, but yes, there's no doubt that in order to make the gains necessary to establish full gender equality, transgender folks will have to fight the main battle themselves.

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:41 AM

So it's about 'desire and conviction,' as well as 'incongruence.'

~BB~
4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

Since when can desire only be met by taking concrete physical steps?

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:42 AM

Bella,
This is from the footnotes of the article you posted. You should have read it before posting it.

"For instance, a man can meet the two core criteria if he only believes he has the typical feelings of a woman and does not feel at ease with the male gender role"

This directly contradicts most of the arguments you made in the thread. You stated that an individual is not a woman unless they have taken concrete actions to transition.

You are contradicted by your own source. And here comes my first series of insults in the thread. You are clearly not as bright as you think. The only cognitive dissonance is you trying to present yourself in this way.

Yeah, I believe those people used to be called 'secondary transsexuals,' according to HBS, which is really just a nice way of saying 'men with gender dysphoria.' And they're mentioned in a footnote, no less. That alone doesn't make them women. Some kind of treatment does. Because treatment transforms the body to match. It's something that you don't do unless you're a 'primary transsexual,' because you feel so compelled to do so that you can't bear living another moment in a life and a body that is incongruent with your own mental self-image.

Again, you speak on that which you cannot possibly understand, which is typical since we now have a culture where everybody thinks they're the universe's special little snowflake and can identify as whatever they like.

Hey, guess what?! I'm a Hollywood director... or at least I could be if I had the education, talent, connections... but yeah, I'm a Hollywood director because I say so.

~BB~

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:45 AM

because you feel so compelled to do so that you can't bear living another moment in a life and a body that is incongruent with your own mental self-image.

~BB~
The core definition is incongruence between assigned gender and experienced gender. So you are not talking about gender dysphoria but what is done to mitigate it.

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:46 AM

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

Since when can desire only be met by taking concrete physical steps?

When the desire is that strong, we act on it. Post-op transsexuals are living proof. Do you think they decided to get SRS on a whim? Or do you think they just have fetish for 'mutilating' their genitals? What are you saying here?

I really want to be an astronaut, but I'm not.

~BB~

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:49 AM

The core definition is incongruence between assigned gender and experienced gender. So you are not talking about gender dysphoria but what is done to mitigate it.

Desire for treatment is evidence of the dysphoria. More treatment = more dysphoria. This isn't rocket science.

~BB~

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:49 AM

Or do you think they just have fetish for 'mutilating' their genitals? What are you saying here?

~BB~
I am definitely not saying that:). BTW, the footnote only applied to DSM IV so it is possible there's room for disagreement.

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:52 AM

Desire for treatment is evidence of the dysphoria. More treatment = more dysphoria. This isn't rocket science.

~BB~
We're at an impasse. The only difference is I'm not pretending your view is idiotic. I understand what you're saying. Proof that I do:

Treatment is evidence of the dysphoria.

Okay I took that verbatim from your post. There is a counter-argument. Can something be the case without proof available that it is?

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:53 AM

I am definitely not saying that:). BTW, the footnote only applied to DSM IV so it is possible there's room for disagreement.

FWIW, I'm not trying to be a bitch. I'm just really frustrated because I've had this conversation so many times and people (who I admit are probably well-intentioned, but misinformed) are so dead set on being inclusive that they realize that apples and oranges don't really go well together.

~BB~

my my my!

07-27-2013, 03:55 AM

I believe, that if anything, transsexuals should have their own group fighting for THEM comprised of transsexual individuals and their supporters and families. A completely transgendered specific group.

Being lumped in with all the other "deviants" (choice word of homophobes and insensitive pricks) is actually counter-productive for transsexuals. Are you gay , lesbian and bisexual? Well, to many in society you may as well be pond scum.

How does the "enemy" view a transsexual? To them a transsexual is no different or worse or better than a yucky lesbian, or a cocksucking faggot, or crossdressing 60 year old hairy man in a wig, in their eyes.

The transsexual path does not run parallel to the LGB path, and thus should be excluded and have it's own agenda and fight.

I agree with Bella 100%

broncofan

07-27-2013, 03:57 AM

FWIW, I'm not trying to be a bitch. I'm just really frustrated because I've had this conversation so many times and people (who I admit are probably well-intentioned, but misinformed) are so dead set on being inclusive that they realize that apples and oranges don't really go well together.

~BB~
I'll read some more on the subject. It probably does seem presumptuous of me to come in here and try to impose my views when I have not lived it. So there:)

BellaBellucci

07-27-2013, 03:58 AM

We're at an impasse. The only difference is I'm not pretending your view is idiotic. I understand what you're saying. Proof that I do:

Treatment is evidence of the dysphoria.

Okay I took that verbatim from your post. There is a counter-argument. Can something be the case without proof available that it is?

So you're arguing 'benefit of the doubt?' That's a subjective matter. If you want to think that a CD is a woman, by all means, go ahead and think that, but don't be upset when TS women don't appreciate the comparison. I think I'd be a lot more respectful towards you if you didn't attempt to ram said comparison down my throat. :lol:

I like other things down my throat :jerkoff, but not opinions when I'm arguing facts. :geek:

~BB~

fivekatz

07-27-2013, 04:03 AM

While I agree that immense progress has been made on both sides of the Atlantic on bringing transgender issues and rights in from the shadows, I'm seriously disheartened to see and hear all the internal debates and sniping within every part of the transgender spectrum.

Your enemies are the entrenched republicans, churches, religious fundamentalists of all flavours and the bigots in the media and the general population, not the gays or the crossdressers.The disgusting part is the Republicans at a high level don't give a shit. They just use these issues as wedges to deflect the conversation away from their real agenda.

There will be many high and some low moments in this movement to overcome discrimination in these forms. The last 4 plus years have seen progress not just in the courts but more importantly in the court of public opinion.

There will always be underlying differences between folks (ie I don't like your lifestyle), there just needs to be a greater acceptance of the idea that whether I like your lifestyle or not that your right to be who you wish to be is your right.

Younger people tend to get this, so it is all a matter of time until my generation dies off. There are much bigger issues in life than whether a guy went through complete SRS, has a cock and tits, or cross dresses and as time goes on people will realize this, if not the Evangelical community than the majority of the population.

And then people ill shake their heads how this ever was an issues, much the way we do today at segregation.