Peaceful resolution - Iran Nukes

[Vicki Richter]

I think it wouldn't hurt to basically lay it on the line and say,

"OK... It's OK if you develop nuclear capabilities. However, if the US or any of our allies get nuke'd, we aren't even going to bother to find out who did it, we are going to level your country and everyone in it."

Of course their alternative would be to rethink whether they want nuclear capabilities since not having them would clearly exempt them from being the one's who pulled the trigger.

I'm surprised that one of the hard left or right wingers hasn't commented on this issue. It's actually a very challenging political problem. You see, Israel will not allow Iran to have nuclear weapons. Period. They are extremely vulnerable and they know just a few suicide nuclear bombers could lay waste to their entire country. Being our main ally in the middle east, we can't really allow them to fight this thing alone.

This is one of those, "nothing good will come of this" type of situations. Should we get involved, should we happily ignore the problem, or approach it diplomatically? Personally I don't think diplomacy is going to work. However, I don't really think we should continue fighting the worlds problems alone either.

[trish]

if the Iranians wanted to nuke Israel, they'd have to avoid the sacriledge of contaminating Palestine which is of course a Muslim holy city. when it comes to "truely" holy sites, it's not clear that the "if i can't have it nobody can" psychology is at play. so my question is: just how likely is a nuclear attack on Jeruselum from a Muslim nation or a Muslim organization.

[Vicki Richter]

Well... The president of Iran is a flaming whacko and very irresponsible. For example, saying that you want Israel wiped off the face of the earth is pretty strong language from a diplomatic leader. When you don't have the means to do it, it can be taken lightly, but with nukes... well that is something different. Also he is denying the holocaust and making other completely whack statements.

I think the point is that, after making those comments, Israel is obviously not going to feel safe with Iran having WMD's.

Do I feel they will really pull the trigger? Well that would obvioulsy be insane for Iran to do that... However, give the nuke to some terrorist organization and claim it was stolen and you have plausible deniability. From a terrorist perspective, they could even point at the former Soviet Union countries and suggest it was them. I wouldn't anticipate a direct and obvious attack, because that isn't how terrorists typically work. They make sure not to have a direct country affilliation to the governments they are representing.

[blahblahblah]

If Israel is allowed to have nuclear power then why is Iran not allowed to have the same capability? It is very natural for Iran to feel threatened by Izrael in such situation, isn't it? It might be better to balance the forces and in that way create a kind of status quo, don't you think so? Either take away the nuclear power from Izrael's hands or balance the things out.

Izrael has become vulnerable only because of it's own apartheid politics against palestinians. They are provoking the entire arab world by performing long-term ethnic cleansing against palestinians, by stealing their country, by putting them in some kind of conc. camps (Sabra & Shatilla), etc.. Right? Indirectly, it was Israel who created all those terrorists around. Just look at Ireland & UK. Same shit happened there.

Izrael is not USA's main ally in the middle east, it's USA's biggest problem in the middle east.

"fighting the worlds problem alone" is pretty wrong. I'd rather express it as:
"creating the worlds problem alone" - that's what USA does today.

And lastly, please compare Bush with that iranian jerk: - ain't they the same shit, both of them?

[Vicki Richter]

No really they are our main ally. You might say Saudi is, but I don't think our government sees it that way.

You sound like an antisematist McMan. That is disappointing coming from you.

It is simple... Israel aren't whacky extremists who go into other countries and blow themselves up in church. They don't make statements at the presidential level saying lets wipe Iran off the face of the earth. They have had nuclear capability for years and they haven't used it to threaten others in the middle east with destruction.

The irony is there were/are several arab nations surrounding Israel when it was formed, some of which realistically should have accepted the responsibility for the Palestinians. Their own people didn't want them. These were people pawned off by their native countries and made into Israel's problem. It would be like Mexico coming in and winning Texas in a war, and us telling Mexico that now our people are there problem. If they really cared about them, they would simply have made them part of their tax infrastrcuture and helped build them up from the squaller that they live in. Instead they make them the problem of someone who also doesn't want them.

[blahblahblah]

No, i'm not antisematist in any way. I'm just kind of pissed off because it seems like that f...... middle east crisis is gonna whipe out entire Earth one day..

[Vicki Richter]

Yes it will. Fire and brimstone baby!

[Quinn]

Interesting topic. I’ve been following this whole thing very closely and am more than a little concerned. To begin with, Iran is clearly intent upon developing nuclear weapons. The way I see it, the issues are as follows:

1. Iran needs nuclear power as an energy source about as much as Eskimos need refrigeration.
2. If Iran’s nuclear program is intended to meet civilian energy needs only, why hide it for nearly 18 years from the IAEA in a multi-billion dollar network of underground bunkers?
3. If Iran’s nuclear program is designed to meet civilian energy needs, why enrich uranium so far past the point necessary to fuel nuclear reactors? There is only one reason to do so, and that’s because they are intent upon developing nuclear weapons.
4. The Iranians are holding all of the cards, and they know it:

a. If we don’t stop them from developing nuclear weapons, it will prove a major moral victory for Iran’s hardliners, legitimizing them in the eye’s of Iran’s restive youth population. It will also allow Iran to bully its neighbors to an even greater degree than it has in the past.
b. If we use precision strikes to destroy – or attempt to destroy – Iran’s nuclear infrastructure, it will unify Iran’s population behind the hardliners (Guardian Council, Revolutionary Guards, etc.). This is particularly important given that most of Iran’s population was born after the 1979 revolution. These youths tend to have more issues with what they view as a corrupt theocratic establishment than they do with the West.
c. Iran’s mountainous geography (excluding the plains of the Southeast), large population, and extremely well defined sense of cultural nationalism (Persian culture being one of the world’s oldest, etc.) make any occupation of that nation doomed to fail.
d. The Chinese and Russians have no intention of supporting a strike against Iran no matter what it does. If memory serves, China receives, or soon will receive, about 20% of its oil from Iran. Russia has lucrative contracts with Iran for weapons and “scientific” cooperation.

My take on this: Iran is a nation that the West can not allow to have nuclear weapons. They need to be stopped by any means necessary. Fortunately, the Europeans realize this and are even more worried than Washington (probably because they get so much of their oil from the Persian Gulf). Everyone knows these negotiations are doomed to fail. The Iranians are just trying to run out the clock, and the West is making a show of exhausting all options before seeking a military solution. Washington, for its part, is also buying time until some of it’s newest ground penetrating weapons are ready for action in the field.

I think a conflict of some sort is inevitable. For you speculators out there, pay close attention to these developments. There will be an opportunity to make tremendous profits shorting certain stocks and currencies.

-Quinn

[blahblahblah]

Yes it will. Fire and brimstone baby!

...buhuu... :cry:

[houstonshemalefan]

I agree 100% with Vicki on this. However, I think that Iran will piss off enough non US countries in the next few years that the US will basically be able to stay out of it.

[Vicki Richter]

Great discussion - keep it coming.

[blahblahblah]

I think that the concept of the middle east as a demilitarized zone ruled by UN peacekeepers wouldn't be wrong. All the countries in the region would be guaranteed their existance, no weapon around etc.. All that in order to save the world. Cause, what would this world look like without me & Vicki in it, right ;-) ?

[Vicki Richter]

I find it really interesting that the hard line liberals don't comment on this topic. It is a catch 22... You can't hate war but ignore crazy people with WMD's. The world isn't bumblebees and butterflies.

It's like holding a 44 caliber and letting someone walk in with a knife and hack your family into little bits. Even a pacifist would have a hard time in that scenario.

[Quinn]

I think that the concept of the middle east as a demilitarized zone ruled by UN peacekeepers wouldn't be wrong. All the countries in the region would be guaranteed their existance, no weapon around etc.. All that in order to save the world. Cause, what would this world look like without me & Vicki in it, right ;-) ?

As a source of international law, the UN is great. As a conduit for humanitarian relief, the UN is quite successful. As a guarantor of security, the UN is an unmitigated disaster replete with failure. If such an arrangement (a demilitarized zone) were made, a security guarantee would have to be provided via some other more viable means.

-Quinn

[Vicki Richter]

To make them a demiliterized zone, would we bomb them into submission? I doubt they would go peacefully.

[blahblahblah]

Yes, absolutely right. If we just remember Bosnia and it's Srebrenica: That city was declared as an UN zone, and was even ruled by UN troops, but despite that, the christian extremists comitted a genocide there against muslim civilians. More efficient UN on the military field is quite an necessity.

[Felicia Katt]

The Mideast is a tinderkeg, but did the Iranians really say they wanted to be the match? The phrase "wipe Israel of the face of the map was very widely reported. But that expression is not really idiomatic to Farsi. The actual Farsi phrase from the speech is correctly translated as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).

MEMRI which is an online translation service like those on google translates the phrase similarly:

[T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history

On 20 February 2006, Iran’s foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel “wiped off the map,” saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. "Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned," Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognise legally this regime.

They were talking about regime change, not nuclear devastation. I'm pretty sure regime change is something the US can relate too. We can also relate to the first strike usage of nuclear weapons on civilian targets, as the only nation to ever really go nuclear.

I'm not saying Iran should have that capacity, just questioning the premise for why people are saying they shouldn't.

FK

[blahblahblah]

Oh, no, crap! Here comes the final sollution: a huge parking place called "The Middle East".

[blahblahblah]

Yes, absolutely right. If we just remember Bosnia and it's Srebrenica: That city was declared as an UN zone, and was even ruled by UN troops, but despite that, the christian extremists comitted a genocide there against muslim civilians. More efficient UN on the military field is quite an necessity.

And by the way: Why isn't this also declared as an act of terrorism? Is the word of terrorist somethings that only belongs to muslim world? I dunno, you thell me..

[hondarobot]

Good grief, someones being a chatty cathy today. Being aligned with the Liberal side of things I, myself, have every intention of commenting on this thread, but not until after work today (I haven't even read all this yet).

I also think a certain girl should stick something hard up her tight little butt hole and take a breather for awhile. Or not, if she's having fun.

:P

[chefmike]

There will be an opportunity to make tremendous profits shorting certain stocks and currencies.



speaking of selling short, the market is dropping even faster than the chimp-in-chief's approval ratings today...

[Vicki Richter]

Chefmike I demand that you actually take a stance on an issue. That is so typical... Be a diehard liberal, but when the real politics and hard questions come up, just avoid making any statement. What is your opinion on this situation Mr Biscuits and fish sticks or whatever it is.

[chefmike]

LMAO...you demand? And BTW it was shrimp and biscuits, and I think you know what we were referring to...

I consider the chimp-in-chief and the rest of the neocon chickenhawks in his inner circle a far greater danger than anything happening in Iran...have a nice day....luv ya, mean it...

[trish]

Ahmadinejad is only the president of Iran and not the Supreme Leader (who is Ali Khamenei). Ahmadinejad's concerns are largely domestic politics. Just like western a politician, Ahmadinejad exasperates frictions to coalesce his base, maintain his popularity and to keep his power within the government secure.

[Quinn]

There will be an opportunity to make tremendous profits shorting certain stocks and currencies.



speaking of selling short, the market is dropping even faster than the chimp-in-chief's approval ratings today...

No doubt, this is some interesting and profitable shit. One non-word: Cha-fucking-ching. If the Dow breaks below 11k within the next couple of days (or weeks), we will probably see a sell-off back to around 10K.

To comment on some of the previous points, Iran has yet to even recognize Israel’s right to exist, so all other commentary relating to regime change is a moot point so far as any gauge of hostile intent is concerned. If Iran's hardliners think that they can raise their standing at home and abroad – in the Arab world – by increasing the degree of saber rattling with Israel, they are playing a dangerous game. Israel, for it's part, is taking these comments with utmost seriousness and has been wargaming accordingly.

What pisses me off about all of this is how our venture into Iraq has undermined our capability to deal with Iran. The threshold for internationally accepted action against Iran is now much higher because of Iraq. Worst of all, we can't even begin to financially afford a prolonged conflict of any sort with Iran – which is something they are very aware of and are using to their advantage. Iraq, for it's part, is now costing us 10 billion dollars a month

-Quinn

[Quinn]

Ahmadinejad is only the president of Iran and not the Supreme Leader (who is Ali Khamenei). Ahmadinejad's concerns are largely domestic politics. Just like western a politician, Ahmadinejad exasperates frictions to coalesce his base, maintain his popularity and to keep his power within the government secure.

The Guardian Council (and to a lesser degree the Revolutionary Guard) is the real power in Iran. Ahmadinejad and the other hardliners all take their direction from the Guardian Council. The word for today is theocracy, or as I prefer to call it, barbarism of the highest order.

-Quinn

[chefmike]

There will be an opportunity to make tremendous profits shorting certain stocks and currencies.



speaking of selling short, the market is dropping even faster than the chimp-in-chief's approval ratings today...

No doubt, this is some interesting and profitable shit. One non-word: Cha-fucking-ching. If the Dow breaks below 11k within the next couple of days (or weeks), we will probably see a sell off-back to around 10K.

To comment on some of the previous points, Iran has yet to even recognize Israel’s right to exist, so all other commentary relating to regime change is a moot point so far as any gauge of hostile intent is concerned. If Iran's hardliners think that they can raise their standing at home and abroad – in the Arab world – by increasing the degree of saber rattling with Israel, they are playing a dangerous game. Israel, for it's part, is taking these comments with utmost seriousness and has been wargaming accordingly.

What pisses me off about all of this is how our venture into Iraq has undermined our capability to deal with Iran. The threshold for internationally accepted action against Iran is now much higher because of Iraq. Worst of all, we can't even begin to financially afford a prolonged conflict of any sort with Iran – which is something they are very aware of and are using to their advantage. Iraq, for it's part, is now costing us 10 billion dollars a month

-Quinn

Exactly, and you and I have discused this in other threads...and now we are sending the National Guard to the Mexican border, when we are already using them to prop up our troops in Iraq...and meanwhile China just sits back, watches and waits....

[specialk]

Ok so Miss Vicky wants to open the discussion on Iran, why not it's great to hear all the different perspectives on the topic, and at least it shows people of all ages and backgrounds are at least paying attention, and thats a good thing.

So far I think the comments of Quinn's and Felicia's (as usual) paint the most accurate picture from my perspective. Chef Mike's political instincts mirror mine to a tee and Trish's made several good points.

So here's my angle. Politics, is first and foremost, all about motivation. It 's not just enough to hear what a political leader is saying, but more importantly, WHY IS HE SAYING WHAT HE'S SAYING? What is his moivation and who will be the winners and who will be the losers. With that understanding you can figure out what the politicians in Wash. or even your local community have up their sleaves.

Getting back to Iran, consider this......they are sitting at the poker table. The stakes are high. To the far West sits Israel (not on Iran's Xmas list) they have Nuclear weapons, given to them from the US Gov. paid for by the US Taxpayers. (Isreal is the largest recipient of foreign aid from the US to the area of 4-5 Billion annualy). They do not posses nuclear capability, and have never admitted publicly that they possess the Nukes we gave them. Sitting now at the immediate left to Iran at the poker table is the US Military, not a comfortable feeling for the Iranians, whom don't get along with them. On Iran's right side is Russia, followed by China.

Now the stakes. Iran has plenty of oil, it's their ace in the hole. They also have big oil contracts with the players to their right (Russia and China).
They are leaning toward Iran's side because they need them. Iran's a little nervous with the players to their left, so maybe they think now is an ideal time to make a nuclear play. Why? One, nukes are are great deterent to unfriendly neighbors. Consider this, Pakistan and India hate one another as much as Israel and all it's neighbors, yet since they (Pakistan and India) both have nukes they co-exist quite remarkably. Yeh, there is the area of Kashmir under dispute, but believe me it's not worth total inihilation. You must remember THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN A NUCLEAR SLUGFEST AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT!!! Nukes are just a great deterent to hostile neighbors, and we have 60 yrs. of history to back it up. North Korea has an even bigger whacko in charge, they have nukes, so why don't they hit South Korea with them? It's all over for the North, plain and simple. And that porn lovin' nutcase doesn't want to give up his nintendo no way no how!

Getting back to the poker game. Consider the hand the US is sitting at the table with. They couldn't begin to mount an invasion of any kind at this particular point for several reasons. The obvious is the quagmire in Iraq, depleting the treasury, the total lack of support from the electorate at home but......more importantly!!!! OIL!!!! Consider this. If we knocked out Iran's ability to continue their nuclear program or even worse their ability to pump oil the effect on the world oil markets would be catastrophic....causing crude prices to shoot to the stratosphere, deeply hurting our economy at home, at a time when things are financialy shakey here. Thus we would be shooting ourselves in the foot, with an "ALL IN" move in this game. Not to mention pissing off Iran's 2 biggest customers China and Russia. And........all the other players at the poker table know it!!!!

So for now we play the diplomatic cards we're holding, in hopes of drawing a few aces later on perhaps. But don't bet the ranch on it folks. I'd be willing to speculate Iran has the poker equivelent of a straight flush perhaps, and from my vantage point the US is holding maybe 3 of a kind.

Consider this. With vast oil reserves, Iran has the ability to live the good life. They can have a fundamental religious style leadership. The population, as pointed out by another poster, is quite young in age, AND they dig western style culture big time. So. what's the hurry to take a chance to send it all into nuclear oblivion? NONE.

Iran will have nuclear capability some day some way, bet on that. Will they self destruct and start some shit they can't win??? I think not, and you can bet on that too.

Sorry to be so longwinded about it all folks.

[chefmike]

That was a damn good, and very interesting analogy, specialk!

[trish]

right on, specialk

[blahblahblah]

right on, specialk

Exactly.
By the way, is it your face on the avatar, Trish <-- ??

[BeardedOne]

That was a damn good, and very interesting analogy, specialk!

Hell, even I understood that! :shock:

And I'm a shitty poker player. :)

I always thought Texas Hold'em was a hot date in Pampa. :lol:

[blahblahblah]

right on, specialk

Exactly.
By the way, is it your face on the avatar, Trish <-- ??

[trish]

not me....wish it was.

[specialk]

Chef, Trish , B-1, McMan....I appreciate the compliments, I'll have to watch my hat size doesn't increase overnight though...LOL You guys keep up the good fight too!

[Vicki Richter]

Well that is definitely a pacifist approach. "Let them get their nukes because they will only use them as a deterent." Brilliant. Yes we and Russia should just distribute them to everyone so everyone is on a level playing field. Nobody will really use them right?

Outside of Chefmike, Iran are some of the most extreme fanatical maniacs on the planet. They suicide bomb at the rate we drink and drive. Why? Because when they die as a martyr they get some crazy 50 virgins to fuck over and over for all eternity. I wonder what the women get. Oh right to be virgins.

Obviously the more countries who get nukes the more the world will be in danger. Those countries could be overrun by regime changes. Those countries could just be unstable enough, or not have security enough in place to prevent the trigger from getting pulled.

Vicki

"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle What'shischicken from Spiderman

[hondarobot]

There's some really excellent posts in this thread! I think a big round of applause is deserved for Vicki for starting this thread..

I think the general idea hammered out is that Iran may develop nukes, and there is a slight chance that military action of some sort will result from this occurance or possibility. I don't think war will break out, or even military strikes, personally. I'd have to agree it's a big bluff and when Iran gets some sanctions put on it, it will strengthen anti-western opinions there, bolster the current hard line government. Then back room dealing will get the Iranians to begrudgingly back off from developing nukes, sanctions lifted, but they'll keep that as a future potential threat.

It makes no sense for them to develop nukes. North Korea did (supposedly) because their leader is a "divinely annointed" nutjob. Even if Iran built some weapons, they could never test them because it would be so provacative that Isreal would pound the shit out of them. A device as complex as a nuclear bomb is a hard thing to pull off, the only reason the US is fairly confident in our own weapons is because we've detonated hundreds of them (possibly thousands). We know we can make them work. Iran would never be sure, so launching a missle would be idiotic at worst, slightly comic at best. They also wouldn't, in my opinion, send a bomb in somewhere covertly, precisely because they have announced they are going to make some, maybe, possibly, perhaps. They would be suspect number one unless the target was South Korea or Japan or something.

I agree that the Iranians have a high degree of religeous zealotry complicating their internal politics right now (and for quite some time), but these people are also politicians. They quite often have alterior motives to what they say or do.

But the real question could be "Eventual Peace and Stability in The Middle East" or "How To Remove The Threat Of More Countries Developing Nuclear Weapons", and that's lots more complicated. I'll put on my thinking cap and if I come up with any ideas, I'll post 'em.

[specialk]

Well that is definitely a pacifist approach. "Let them get their nukes because they will only use them as a deterent." Brilliant. Yes we and Russia should just distribute them to everyone so everyone is on a level playing field. Nobody will really use them right?

Outside of Chefmike, Iran are some of the most extreme fanatical maniacs on the planet. They suicide bomb at the rate we drink and drive. Why? Because when they die as a martyr they get some crazy 50 virgins to fuck over and over for all eternity. I wonder what the women get. Oh right to be virgins.

Obviously the more countries who get nukes the more the world will be in danger. Those countries could be overrun by regime changes. Those countries could just be unstable enough, or not have security enough in place to prevent the trigger from getting pulled.

Vicki

"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle What'shischicken from Spiderman


Vicki, allow me to go out on a limb and assume your comments were directed at me. If I'm correct I think the points of my post went slightly over your head.

I never suggested we let anyone have nukes in my post. I merely explained what the history of nukes has been used for since we showed the Japanese what they are capable of. Since 1945, noone has used them because everyone is scared to go up in smoke. everyone wants them, because they give you an "edge" militarily. I can't find in my post where I said the US and Russia should pass them out to level the playing field, so pleases don't put words in my mouth. What I did say was that preventing certain countries FROM GETTING nukes can have reprocussions. Major reprocussions. If it were so easy to put our foot down when North Korea and now Iran were going nuke WE WOULD HAVE ALREADY DONE IT....CORRECT? We were against Pakistan and India back in those days too. yet they got em. Consider this. If Iran was really hell bent on nuking Israel, it would be easier to buy a few from North Korea and save the expense and time waisted developing them. I think Felicia explained quite rightly what the translation on Iran's view of Israel. The only wild card in this whole mess is whether Israel with push the panic button and go it alone and make a move. so far they do not have our blessing, but that might not mean shit if they get freaked out. If it doesn't go according to Israel's plan Holy Hell could be to pay for it all.

Let's hope cooler heads prevail, as history has shown. The consequence to showboating or hot headedness isn't very pretty, and all the players know it. Remeber this, tyrants live a pretty comfy lifestyle and even they resist doing the ultimate boneheaded play.

The thing to realy fear is Nukes in the hands of Bin Laden or other ROGUE terrorists, the guys who don't have a comfy country with riches to enjoy. It's the freelance lunatics that are the ones to watch out for. Would Iran give Bin Laden the goods? I'm thinking not. The world instibilty would be too messy and the "nuke players", tyrants and filthy rich don't need it.

A more likely senerio might be Bin Scummo getting some nuclear material or waste to take a desperation shot in the form of a dirty bomb at us or someone else they hate that day.

End of rant :D

[White_Male_Canada]

Hands off Iran You Mo-Fo`s/sarc off

[hondarobot]

Yah, it's fucked up that some fanatics do shit like stone people to death. Lots of messed up people do lots of messed up things all over the world, it's a fact of life, and it has all sorts of motivations. Using that as an excuse to invade or carpet bomb (or whatever) an entire country of, most likely, very decent normal, non-fanatical people (who don't make the evening news, unlike the weirdos) is idiotic.

I thought you were at least an intelligent guy, but that has now been brought into question.

And if you post another passage from the bible in some ridiculous attempt to make Vicki swoon, I'm going to hurl.

[chefmike]

There's some really excellent posts in this thread! I think a big round of applause is deserved for Vicki for starting this thread..

Honda, I'll forgive you the round of applause remark because of your fixation on a certain nutjob who is obviously off her meds again...


but don't lower yourself to competing with white male pinhead, amigo...you're better than that...

[White_Male_Canada]

Yah, it's fucked up that some fanatics do shit like stone people to death. Lots of messed up people do lots of messed up things all over the world, it's a fact of life, and it has all sorts of motivations. Using that as an excuse to invade or carpet bomb (or whatever) an entire country of, most likely, very decent normal, non-fanatical people (who don't make the evening news, unlike the weirdos) is idiotic.

I thought you were at least an intelligent guy, but that has now been brought into question.

And if you post another passage from the bible in some ridiculous attempt to make Vicki swoon, I'm going to hurl.

You actually assume I`m attempting to seduce someone I`ve never met ? Exactly how old are you ?

Here enjoy these pics :

http://conflictiran.blogspot.com/2006/04/inside-iran-city-life.html

That said, think of Iran as an inverted pyramid ready to be toppled. Only thing needed is a nudge.
There is alot more going in Iran than people are aware. I`m speaking of a massive underground movement. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is only representatvie of a regime in it`s death throes.

[chefmike]

Yah, it's fucked up that some fanatics do shit like stone people to death. Lots of messed up people do lots of messed up things all over the world, it's a fact of life, and it has all sorts of motivations. Using that as an excuse to invade or carpet bomb (or whatever) an entire country of, most likely, very decent normal, non-fanatical people (who don't make the evening news, unlike the weirdos) is idiotic.

I thought you were at least an intelligent guy, but that has now been brought into question.

And if you post another passage from the bible in some ridiculous attempt to make Vicki swoon, I'm going to hurl.

You actually assume I`m attempting to seduce someone I`ve never met ? Exactly how old are you ?

Here enjoy these pics :

http://conflictiran.blogspot.com/2006/04/inside-iran-city-life.html

That said, think of Iran as an inverted pyramid ready to be toppled. Only thing needed is a nudge.
There is a lot more going in Iran than people are aware. I`m speaking of a massive underground movement. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is only representative of a regime in it`s death throes.

LMFAO..the same kind of assurances that we got from the neocons regarding Iraq....more flowers and candy....you are such a fucking deluded asshole...

[hondarobot]

She's not a nutjob, Chef.

She stuck by me for a year while I went nuts and was just a general pain in the ass to her. I owe her a year back, so that means. . .well, lots of things. Mainly not going nuts again, on my end.

I'll be here for her if she wants someone to talk to, at least once a day if she wants. It's the Bushido code (well, not exactly, but a variation on it).

Oh, and too bad you haven't met her WMC, she's pretty damn cool, even though she likes to tear her clothes off on occasion (ah, that's pretty cool, too). I take it you're a fan, so please proceed in peace.

[White_Male_Canada]

Yah, it's fucked up that some fanatics do shit like stone people to death. Lots of messed up people do lots of messed up things all over the world, it's a fact of life, and it has all sorts of motivations. Using that as an excuse to invade or carpet bomb (or whatever) an entire country of, most likely, very decent normal, non-fanatical people (who don't make the evening news, unlike the weirdos) is idiotic.

I thought you were at least an intelligent guy, but that has now been brought into question.

And if you post another passage from the bible in some ridiculous attempt to make Vicki swoon, I'm going to hurl.

You actually assume I`m attempting to seduce someone I`ve never met ? Exactly how old are you ?

Here enjoy these pics :

http://conflictiran.blogspot.com/2006/04/inside-iran-city-life.html

That said, think of Iran as an inverted pyramid ready to be toppled. Only thing needed is a nudge.
There is a lot more going in Iran than people are aware. I`m speaking of a massive underground movement. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is only representative of a regime in it`s death throes.

LMFAO..the same kind of assurances that we got from the neocons regarding Iraq....more flowers and candy....you are such a fucking deluded asshole...

Yes Chef , it`s Da Jooz. Those damn dirty neocon Jooz huh Chef,you racist bigot.

You know nothing :
http://daneshjoo.org/publishers/smccdinews/article_4529.shtml

Neocons Once Again (Da Jooz)

This is classic anti-Semitism. It attributes to a few Jews power beyond reason, in this case seeming to assign more power to Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, and Paul Wolfowitz than to President George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Colin Powell. It rests on the prejudice that longtime government officials who happen to be Jewish are more loyal to Israel than America. And it assumes that Jews, rather than functioning as individual Americans, automatically are engaged in conspiracy with other Jews.

http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Domestic/Neocons_070104.htm

[specialk]

Just when you thought it can't get any better..............It does!!!

Apparently another job on the list of jobs we can't get Americans to do is suck off the Chimp in Chief (thanks for the use of the title Chef).

Anyway, who can blame Americans who won't suck it for 5.15/ hr. So the White House went with an old formula, "outsource it".

The choice of the "canadian pinhead" was an easy one as he can pass as an American quite easily. And here he is finishing up for the day, with an assist from a secret service agent covering the rear.

[White_Male_Canada]

Just when you thought it can't get any better..............It does!!!

Apparently another job on the list of jobs we can't get Americans to do is suck off the Chimp in Chief (thanks for the use of the title Chef).

Anyway, who can blame Americans who won't suck it for 5.15/ hr. So the White House went with an old formula, "outsource it".

The choice of the "canadian pinhead" was an easy one as he can pass as an American quite easily. And here he is finishing up for the day, with an assist from a secret service agent covering the rear.

And your nickname says it all. Special,as in you rode the "special" bus to school everyday now didn`t you. You know the one,the short one.Where all the kids picked on you.

"Special" because he cannot think of anything to say so he cuts and pastes the identical blithering nonsense,over and over.

[Quinn]

Yah, it's fucked up that some fanatics do shit like stone people to death. Lots of messed up people do lots of messed up things all over the world, it's a fact of life, and it has all sorts of motivations. Using that as an excuse to invade or carpet bomb (or whatever) an entire country of, most likely, very decent normal, non-fanatical people (who don't make the evening news, unlike the weirdos) is idiotic.

I thought you were at least an intelligent guy, but that has now been brought into question.

And if you post another passage from the bible in some ridiculous attempt to make Vicki swoon, I'm going to hurl.

You actually assume I`m attempting to seduce someone I`ve never met ? Exactly how old are you ?

Here enjoy these pics :

http://conflictiran.blogspot.com/2006/04/inside-iran-city-life.html

That said, think of Iran as an inverted pyramid ready to be toppled. Only thing needed is a nudge.
There is a lot more going in Iran than people are aware. I`m speaking of a massive underground movement. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is only representative of a regime in it`s death throes.

LMFAO..the same kind of assurances that we got from the neocons regarding Iraq....more flowers and candy....you are such a fucking deluded asshole...

Yes Chef , it`s Da Jooz. Those damn dirty neocon Jooz huh Chef,you racist bigot.

You know nothing :
http://daneshjoo.org/publishers/smccdinews/article_4529.shtml

Neocons Once Again (Da Jooz)

This is classic anti-Semitism. It attributes to a few Jews power beyond reason, in this case seeming to assign more power to Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, and Paul Wolfowitz than to President George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Colin Powell. It rests on the prejudice that longtime government officials who happen to be Jewish are more loyal to Israel than America. And it assumes that Jews, rather than functioning as individual Americans, automatically are engaged in conspiracy with other Jews.

http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Domestic/Neocons_070104.htm

WMC, at what point has Chef made anti-Semitic statements? I've been a member of this forum for a long time, and I do not recall such an event ever taking place. Perhaps you would care to support your contention by posting a quote as evidence. If you can not adequately support your claim by doing so, be man enough to cease making such statements as they are costing you your credibility.

-Quinn

[specialk]

I don't think the white_pinhead-Canada likes me very much for embarrassing him about his job status here in the US, as evidenced by his cry baby pic from his pitiful childhood.

[White_Male_Canada]

LMFAO..the same kind of assurances that we got from the neocons regarding Iraq....more flowers and candy....you are such a fucking deluded asshole...


Yes Chef , it`s Da Jooz. Those damn dirty neocon Jooz huh Chef,you racist bigot.

You know nothing :
http://daneshjoo.org/publishers/smccdinews/article_4529.shtml

Neocons Once Again (Da Jooz)

This is classic anti-Semitism. It attributes to a few Jews power beyond reason, in this case seeming to assign more power to Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, and Paul Wolfowitz than to President George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Colin Powell. It rests on the prejudice that longtime government officials who happen to be Jewish are more loyal to Israel than America. And it assumes that Jews, rather than functioning as individual Americans, automatically are engaged in conspiracy with other Jews.

http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Domestic/Neocons_070104.htm

WMC, at what point has Chef made anti-Semitic statements? I've been a member of this forum for a long time, and I do not recall such an event ever taking place. Perhaps you would care to support your contention by posting a quote as evidence. If you can not adequately support your claim by doing so, be man enough to cease making such statements as they are costing you your credibility.

-Quinn I trust the ADL when they say that NeoCon is a code word. Did you miss that part.I`m not the only one who`s noticed his subtle code word,I am the one calling a spade a spade.
Chef`s racism and intolerance would find a better home at DU,where that intolerance is the norm.


http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Domestic/Neocons_070104.htm

[Quinn]

I trust the ADL when they say that NeoCon is a code word. Did you miss that part.I`m not the only one who`s noticed his subtle code word,I am the one calling a spade a spade.
http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Domestic/Neocons_070104.htm

So what you are saying, WMC, is that:

a) You can't produce a quotation in which ChefMike actually makes an anti-Semitic statement;

b) You are allowing someone else who is not even taking part in this debate (the ADL) to frame your erroneous interpretation of someone else's statements.

Your attempt to paint ChefMike as a racist is supported by what is at best specious logic. Like I said earlier, if you can't support this type of assertion, let it go.

-Quinn

[ezed]

This seems about much ado about something that everyone on this board can do nothing about. We have no power or influence. We individually have no cards. Collectivly we have the deuce of hearts. What happens, happens. We are spectators at this game. The game has been going on forever. No matter what we say or do, we are not in the game. We as a whole got a deuce of hearts. That can get us a pedicure at the salon downstairs on our next visit.

The guy from Canada...unfortunately...you are in section 330 of the second balcony in the last row. You can ran't and rave all you want but no one can hear you over the music on the Jumbotron. Your best bet for recognition is to run down the steps and hurle yourself to the ice. But that will only postpone the game for 10 minutes while the Zamboni comes out and makes new ice.

The players will play and the game will go on.

The current leader in Iran will have his fifteen minutes of fame and a sentence in future history books. But he'll die or fuck up and be replaced. If he starts working on a space program then the U.S. will be concerned. He'll never get to the point he can launch on Israel, they'll make sure of that.

Anyway if he did, I believe the weather patterns go west to east meaning the Moslems get the worst of the after effects..fallout. Not that these looney tunes give a shit about that, but it's something to consider.

So what is all this yapping going to do about what's going to happen...nothing.

Unless some of our members are actually high ranking leaders of the world, who have a craving for shemales and going under aliases such as Scorpion, Zach 22, Daebo ............ then maybe we have three dueces...

PS...the Chinese love us....we buy all their shit and make their new found Capitalistic leanings, with a tingh of Communisum a success.

[White_Male_Canada]

I trust the ADL when they say that NeoCon is a code word. Did you miss that part.I`m not the only one who`s noticed his subtle code word,I am the one calling a spade a spade.
http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Domestic/Neocons_070104.htm

So what you are saying, WMC, is that:

a) You can't produce a quotation in which ChefMike actually makes an anti-Semitic statement;

b) You are allowing someone else who is not even taking part in this debate (the ADL) to frame your erroneous interpretation of someone else's statements.

Your attempt to paint ChefMike as a racist is supported by what is at best specious logic. Like I said earlier, if you can't support this type of assertion, let it go.

-Quinn

Chef utilizes the word 'neocon' regularly. The quote is there to see.If you disagree on the commonly held view that it is a code word then there is no sense in debating a point where one defines terms and words according to how one feels,and not the common standard.

Neoconservatism, Judaism, and "Dual Loyalty"

Some opponents of neoconservatives have sought to emphasize their interest in Israel and the relatively large proportion of Jewish neoconservatives, and have raised the question of "dual loyalty". A number of critics, such as Pat Buchanan and Juan Cole, have accused them of putting Israeli interests above those of America. In turn these critics have been labeled as anti-Semites by many neoconservatives (which in turn has led to accusations of professional smearing, and then paranoia, and so on).

Some neo-nazi conspiracy theorists such as David Duke have attacked neoconservatism as advancing 'Jewish interests.' Classic anti-Semitic tropes have often been used when elaborating this view, such as the idea that Jews achieve influence through the intellectual domination of national leaders. Similarly, during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, left-wing magazine AdBusters published a list of the "50 most influential neocons in the United States", noting that half of these were Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative#Neoconservatism.2C_Judaism.2C_and_ .22Dual_Loyalty.22

"...the neoconservatives, it turns out, are also in large proportion Jewish — and this, to their detractors, constitutes evidence of the ulterior motives that lurk behind the policies they espouse." September 2003, republished at American Enterprise Institute

" The point is simply that the neocons seem to have a special affinity for Israel that influences their political thinking and consequently American foreign policy in the Middle East." ("Why won't anyone say they are Jewish?", March/April 2004ADbusters)

[Quinn]

Chef utilizes the word 'neocon' regularly. The quote is there to see.If you disagree on the commonly held view that it is a code word then there is no sense in debating a point where one defines terms and words according to how one feels,and not the common standard.

Commonly held view? You’re joking, right? Since when do the perspectives and opinions of an extremely small minority constitute a “commonly held view”?

Look, WMC, I’m not interested in having a lengthy debate with you regarding this. Like everyone here, you are free to state whatever you wish, but your argument is completely absurd, and you know it.

Once again, if you can't produce evidence to support your claim that Chef is a racist, you come off as looking desperate.

I’m going to bed now.

-Quinn

[blahblahblah]

She's not a nutjob, Chef.

She stuck by me for a year while I went nuts and was just a general pain in the ass to her. I owe her a year back, so that means. . .well, lots of things. Mainly not going nuts again, on my end.

I'll be here for her if she wants someone to talk to, at least once a day if she wants. It's the Bushido code (well, not exactly, but a variation on it).

Oh, and too bad you haven't met her WMC, she's pretty damn cool, even though she likes to tear her clothes off on occasion (ah, that's pretty cool, too). I take it you're a fan, so please proceed in peace.

When a normal MAN breaks up with a girl, he'll not try to humiliate her afterwards on public services like this one, unless he's a total moron. I dont know about fagots, but a normal man will swallow that shit and would keep it for himself. Shouting around is no solution at all. I would be very impressed if Vicki decides to take you back after all the shit you served us about her in your posts. C'mon dude, concentrate!!

[Felicia Katt]

Quinn, some of the people who post here only would try to deflect attention from who the Neocons really are by claiming its a code word for being Jewish. Neo means new, not Jew.
So far as I know, only a few of the followiing members of the leading neo conservative organizations Proejct for a New American Century are Jewish.

Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett Jeffrey Bergner John Bolton Paula Dobriansky Francis Fukuyama Robert Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad William Kristol Richard Perle Peter W. Rodman Donald Rumsfeld William Schneider, Jr. Vin Weber Paul Wolfowitz R. James Woolsey Robert B. Zoellick Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Steve Forbes Aaron Friedberg Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel
Governors, VP's, Cabinet Members, Chiefs of Staff, Editors and Publishers, Millionaires, and criminal suspects, but not a rabbi among them.

I wish we could keep debate here on the facts and the issues, but some here just engage in personal attacks, or inflammatory pictures, or unsupported statements, and then twist their language and logic like Chubby Checker when you call them on it.

FK

[Vicki Richter]

She's not a nutjob, Chef.

She stuck by me for a year while I went nuts and was just a general pain in the ass to her. I owe her a year back, so that means. . .well, lots of things. Mainly not going nuts again, on my end.

I'll be here for her if she wants someone to talk to, at least once a day if she wants. It's the Bushido code (well, not exactly, but a variation on it).

Oh, and too bad you haven't met her WMC, she's pretty damn cool, even though she likes to tear her clothes off on occasion (ah, that's pretty cool, too). I take it you're a fan, so please proceed in peace.

When a normal MAN breaks up with a girl, he'll not try to humiliate her afterwards on public services like this one, unless he's a total moron. I dont know about fagots, but a normal man will swallow that shit and would keep it for himself. Shouting around is no solution at all. I would be very impressed if Vicki decides to take you back after all the shit you served us about her in your posts. C'mon dude, concentrate!!


Hang on there pardner... There is no take anyone back. We never dated. He just took a bus down here and we hung out for dinner and drinks and swimming and such. So what if I like to swim topless in public pools.

You know I should get props for that... a guy spends a big chunk of his savings to come accross country and meet his dream girl - who happens to be a porn star, and I went out to dinner, a strip club, and drunkenly swam around in his resort pool. I think I even bought him dinner... A lot of these other girls would have told him $1000. Ask Megabody - TS are almost always after your money.

I told him not to come like 10 times but since he did, I wasn't going to not hang out after he had gone through all that. That would have been very fucked up.

V

[Vicki Richter]

This seems about much ado about something that everyone on this board can do nothing about. We have no power or influence. We individually have no cards. Collectivly we have the deuce of hearts. What happens, happens. We are spectators at this game. The game has been going on forever. No matter what we say or do, we are not in the game. We as a whole got a deuce of hearts. That can get us a pedicure at the salon downstairs on our next visit.

.

Exactly... So why do you vote? Your vote doesn't count for anything anymore than your thoughts on how to solve this issue. It is a system of control put in place to make you think you have a say in how things in this country are ran. The last time your vote counted was when you were in high school and voted for the class president or prom queen.

I've been saying this for a long time to Chef and one or two other's who spew party hate commentary constantly. What do you hope to accomplish by posting anti-party sentiment on a board about girls with dicks? That makes sense. :roll:

[Vicki Richter]

There's some really excellent posts in this thread! I think a big round of applause is deserved for Vicki for starting this thread..

Honda, I'll forgive you the round of applause remark because of your fixation on a certain nutjob who is obviously off her meds again...



Chef

I have more intelligence and rationale in my pinky than any of you Denny's pancake makers have in your entire being. I know you are bitter because of your choice of careers but don't take that out on me. I'm sure you look cute prancing around a kitchen in your little apron whistling show tunes. Any person of even moderate intellect can see that my points have been anything but "nutjob".

[chefmike]

She's not a nutjob, Chef.

She stuck by me for a year while I went nuts and was just a general pain in the ass to her. I owe her a year back, so that means. . .well, lots of things. Mainly not going nuts again, on my end.

I'll be here for her if she wants someone to talk to, at least once a day if she wants. It's the Bushido code (well, not exactly, but a variation on it).

Oh, and too bad you haven't met her WMC, she's pretty damn cool, even though she likes to tear her clothes off on occasion (ah, that's pretty cool, too). I take it you're a fan, so please proceed in peace.

When a normal MAN breaks up with a girl, he'll not try to humiliate her afterwards on public services like this one, unless he's a total moron. I dont know about fagots, but a normal man will swallow that shit and would keep it for himself. Shouting around is no solution at all. I would be very impressed if Vicki decides to take you back after all the shit you served us about her in your posts. C'mon dude, concentrate!!


Hang on there pardner... There is no take anyone back. We never dated. He just took a bus down here and we hung out for dinner and drinks and swimming and such. So what if I like to swim topless in public pools.

You know I should get props for that... a guy spends a big chunk of his savings to come accross country and meet his dream girl - who happens to be a porn star, and I went out to dinner, a strip club, and drunkenly swam around in his resort pool. I think I even bought him dinner... A lot of these other girls would have told him $1000. Ask Megabody - TS are almost always after your money.

I told him not to come like 10 times but since he did, I wasn't going to not hang out after he had gone through all that. That would have been very fucked up.

V

honda has stated on this board that he fucked you in the ass....it's not an ass that I'd care to stick my johnson in, but good for him if that's what he wanted...but most of the other guys who've done that got paid for it though, didn't they?

[chefmike]

There's some really excellent posts in this thread! I think a big round of applause is deserved for Vicki for starting this thread..

Honda, I'll forgive you the round of applause remark because of your fixation on a certain nutjob who is obviously off her meds again...



Chef

I have more intelligence and rationale in my pinky than any of you Denny's pancake makers have in your entire being. I know you are bitter because of your choice of careers but don't take that out on me. I'm sure you look cute prancing around a kitchen in your little apron whistling show tunes. Any person of even moderate intellect can see that my points have been anything but "nutjob".

I'm a Chef with a culinary degree and I went to college before I entered the Culinary Institute of America (the Harvard of culinary schools)...how much education did it take for you.... to do what you do for a living, toots....I hope you stay off of your meds for a few more days though, I'm enjoying this immensely...bon appetit
and BTW, I wear a black apron (it's a satanic thing, ya know) and it's difficult to prance when you're wearing Doc Martens...love ya, mean it...

[Vicki Richter]

Oh please. Honda didn't fuck me. Where did he post that?

LOL chef stick to my feet. My ass is the shiznit.

[hondarobot]

Hehe, looks like the action is still going on HA.

Here's the story about the deal in question: I did not fuck Vicki, I've never stated I did. I've also never lied on this forum, and I'll leave things at that.

Could I have fucked Vicki? Honestly, yes. I'm a pretty cool guy, to be honest, and she's not all about the money, so yes I believe that could have happened. The reason it didn't, well, I'm the younger version of Stanley Roper from Three's Company. I do have a "super power" in regards to ending up in bed with beautiful women, and Vicki is the most beautiful on my list, I just keep dissapointing them.

I do tell some pretty entertaining storys though, and am a loyal friend. And that's that. I think the story of my bus trip to Arizona is now done in it's retelling.

[chefmike]

I'm beginning to think that she keeps you locked up in a box, like the gimp in 'Pulp Fiction'...and yes, you said something to the effect of "I remember when I flipped that ass over and..."

I'll look it up later today if you're denying it...I could care less, but don't tell me that I didn't read it on this forum...

different strokes...

as they say...one man's trash is another man's treasure.... :wink:

[hondarobot]

I did flip her naked ass over in bed. . .I never said I fucked her.

It's kind of a hillarious story really, in an absurd way, but I'm done talking about it. I took a bus across country, got my dream girl in bed, and then didn't even get it up to fuck her.

Why? As I've said elsewhere, I'm the next incarnation of Woody Allen (although perhaps Woody would be inappropriate). Believe me, it's nothing I'm embaressed about, disappointed in my own lack of libido of course, but I've had a far more interesting life than most people on this planet.

And I'm just getting started.

[Vicki Richter]

Honda you leave me no choice.

Chuys: Denna drinks 3 margaritas
Misc strip club in Scottsdale: Denna drinks 2-3 malibu pineapples
Resort in Scottsdale: Denna drinks 1 or 2 more mixed drinks at the pool

I was kinda toasty. I went back to Honda's room not to fuck but to rest a bit before driving. I fell asleep actually and woke up with Honda licking all up and down my big shecock... He may have licked my bootie as well but I can't really remember. I never actually saw his penis or touched it etc... I didn't cum all over his face but I should have. So then since it was like 3AM or so, I left and drove home. The end. Using Clinton speak - Honda can say, "I did not have sex with that woman". There was no relationship. There was no dating. There was a blowjob without a happy ending. If I could say it was in a cheap hotel room it would be the whole cliche... But it wasn't cheap.

[plainBob]

Vicki i just think ole chef wants you to make him your bitch. Just go on and punk him so the board will be peaceful once agin. Oh and one more thing. Your killing me sweety. My goddes your fine!

[hondarobot]

hehe. . .we did get kinda loaded, didn't we?

It was a pretty good time, though.

[chefmike]

Vicki i just think ole chef wants you to make him your bitch. Just go on and punk him so the board will be peaceful once agin. Oh and one more thing. Your killing me sweety. My goddes your fine! LMAO...not bloody likely...even if I was a bottom like yourself I wouldn't stoop that low...but maybe you can flip honda for the honor, ya rookie punk....

[yosi]

I think that Iran will piss off enough non US countries in the next few years that the US will basically be able to stay out of it.

you forget one simple fact:
the Iranians support Al Qaida - they have the same goals.

if the iranians will have the nuclear power , americans also have all the reasons to be very worried, this is why it is so important to disarm the iranians from the potencial nuclear power 8)

[Vicki Richter]

LMAO...not bloody likely...even if I was a bottom like yourself I wouldn't stoop that low...but maybe you can flip honda for the honor, ya rookie punk....

Wow a British cook who trained in the U.S. at the "Harvard of Cooking Schools"? This gets better and better. Or did you east coasters start using terms like "not bloody likely"? Interesting. Ever been to Hawaii?

[plainBob]

LOL vicki did those meds kick in? Go gett'em girl.

[chefmike]

LMAO...not bloody likely...even if I was a bottom like yourself I wouldn't stoop that low...but maybe you can flip honda for the honor, ya rookie punk....

Wow a British cook who trained in the U.S. at the "Harvard of Cooking Schools"? This gets better and better. Or did you east coasters start using terms like "not bloody likely"? Interesting. Ever been to Hawaii?

Yes, I've been to Hawaii...I'm a vet, not a chickenhawk like the neocon scum that you're an apologist for....every time the ship that I was stationed on (USS Kitty Hawk-CV 63) left the states or entered the states we docked In Hawaii...but I've never met your nemesis Satanchai, toots...

and I served on the flight deck...look it up in Lloyds of London...one of the world's most dangerous jobs...where did you and plainbobblowjob, whitemalechickenhawk et al serve?

And I'm also fond of the term "shut yer bleedin hole"...but that would only apply to you in a retro kinda sense, eh?

kisses

[plainBob]

planBobblowjob....YES...THATS the the old chefmike i remember. Woot.now go make me a beanpie bitch.

[ezed]

Exactly... So why do you vote? Your vote doesn't count for anything anymore than your thoughts on how to solve this issue. It is a system of control put in place to make you think you have a say in how things in this country are ran. The last time your vote counted was when you were in high school and voted for the class president or prom queen.

I've been saying this for a long time to Chef and one or two other's who spew party hate commentary constantly. What do you hope to accomplish by posting anti-party sentiment on a board about girls with dicks? That makes sense. :roll:

Voting in a Federal Election (and even many States) is like going to the produce section of your local supermarket and being asked to vote on the better looking of two navel oranges after all the oranges that have been on top of them for weeks have been taken away. They're both the same and usually unedible. But a lot of countries get to choose from only one unedible orange.

They call them navel oranges, but that place where you start to peel it ...looks nothing like a navel. It looks more like a balloon knot. But how well would "asshole oranges" sell. (Credit to Opie & Anthony show on XM Radio for the navel observation).

[Hugh Jarrod]

Exactly... So why do you vote? Your vote doesn't count for anything anymore than your thoughts on how to solve this issue. It is a system of control put in place to make you think you have a say in how things in this country are ran. The last time your vote counted was when you were in high school and voted for the class president or prom queen.

I've been saying this for a long time to Chef and one or two other's who spew party hate commentary constantly. What do you hope to accomplish by posting anti-party sentiment on a board about girls with dicks? That makes sense. :roll:

Voting in a Federal Election (and even many States) is like going to the produce section of your local supermarket and being asked to vote on the better looking of two navel oranges after all the oranges that have been on top of them for weeks have been taken away. They're both the same and usually unedible. But a lot of countries get to choose from only one unedible orange.

They call them navel oranges, but that place where you start to peel it ...looks nothing like a navel. It looks more like a balloon knot. But how well would "asshole oranges" sell. (Credit to Opie & Anthony show on XM Radio for the navel observation).

Amen

[hondarobot]

I'd like to add the final details, just so no-one gets the wrong idea about "My Summer Vacation" trip. I stated in my last post that Vicki and I were Loaded at the end of the evening. That's not exactly true, although we had been partying and were pretty buzzed.

We did end up both falling asleep, not passing out or anything, and I did wake up a few hours later and, well, do what any guy would do if they found Vicki Richter in bed with them. I kissed her, licked her nipples, licked her asspuss, and I figured it was a nice way to wake her up. I did end up discovering she wasn't fully awake until I got to work on her shecock. Hehe.

She wasn't mad or freaked out, but it wasn't what she was interested in, so we kissed goodnight and she departed, as friends.

I'm sure everyone has been on the edge of their seats waiting for this thrilling story to reach its conclusion, so there you have it.

It also has nothing to do with nuclear missles, although anyone who has seen Vicki naked could draw some obvious comparisons (hehe. . .she really is that big. . .)

:wink:

[blahblahblah]

I'd like to add the final details, just so no-one gets the wrong idea about "My Summer Vacation" trip. I stated in my last post that Vicki and I were Loaded at the end of the evening. That's not exactly true, although we had been partying and were pretty buzzed.

We did end up both falling asleep, not passing out or anything, and I did wake up a few hours later and, well, do what any guy would do if they found Vicki Richter in bed with them. I kissed her, licked her nipples, licked her asspuss, and I figured it was a nice way to wake her up. I did end up discovering she wasn't fully awake until I got to work on her shecock. Hehe.

She wasn't mad or freaked out, but it wasn't what she was interested in, so we kissed goodnight and she departed, as friends.

I'm sure everyone has been on the edge of their seats waiting for this thrilling story to reach its conclusion, so there you have it.

It also has nothing to do with nuclear missles, although anyone who has seen Vicki naked could draw some obvious comparisons (hehe. . .she really is that big. . .)

:wink:

Mr. Pilgrim, please give us a break!

[hondarobot]

"Pilgrim"? OMG, I'm beeing called out by the ghost of John Wayne!!!

But to your, and I'm sure everyones relief, the story of my vacation has now been told and shall not be revisited here or elsewhere, ever again.

Now go watch a Vicki video, you kook! I know I will. I even have a towel that still kinda smells like her that I may use as a jack rag. . .

Nyah nyah nyah!

[Vicki Richter]

Now go watch a Vicki video, you kook! I know I will. I even have a towel that still kinda smells like her that I may use as a jack rag. . .

Nyah nyah nyah!

Oh my... That is kinda strange Honda. You should keep that stuff to yourself.

For sale: Vicki towels: Will smell like Vicki for ~30 days depending on how many times you cum in them. There after they will smell like cum.

For sale: Vicki towel service: Send your came in Vicki towels back to Vicki and she will launder them and then reuse them in some way to get her scent back on them. 1 week turn around.

[stillies77]

hahahaha vicki...you rock.

[hondarobot]

Hehe. . . that's a cool idea. You could sell signature "Vicki Richter Cum Towels", I don't think anyone's done that yet.

I'm keeping my towel. Nobody would buy it anyways, it's got that damn tear in it. Ah, who am I kidding, I'm sure lots of guys would buy it. The resort would probably sue my ass for liberating it, though. I actually almost had to go to court once long ago for "defrauding an Innkeeper", no joke. But that's a completely different story.

But the towel is mine, dammit! None of you can have it! HAHA!

8)

[ezed]

I'd like to add the final details, just so no-one gets the wrong idea about "My Summer Vacation" trip. I stated in my last post that Vicki and I were Loaded at the end of the evening. That's not exactly true, although we had been partying and were pretty buzzed.

We did end up both falling asleep, not passing out or anything, and I did wake up a few hours later and, well, do what any guy would do if they found Vicki Richter in bed with them. I kissed her, licked her nipples, licked her asspuss, and I figured it was a nice way to wake her up. I did end up discovering she wasn't fully awake until I got to work on her shecock. Hehe.

She wasn't mad or freaked out, but it wasn't what she was interested in, so we kissed goodnight and she departed, as friends.

I'm sure everyone has been on the edge of their seats waiting for this thrilling story to reach its conclusion, so there you have it.

It also has nothing to do with nuclear missles, although anyone who has seen Vicki naked could draw some obvious comparisons (hehe. . .she really is that big. . .)

:wink:

Yeah, who cares. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. We weren't there so why do you keep throwing it in our face. If you want to be a standup guy and talk about it later, the next time Vicki passes out naked....do the right thing!....invite us all over.

[plainBob]

Don't forget the video recorder.

[blahblahblah]

"Pilgrim"? OMG, I'm beeing called out by the ghost of John Wayne!!!

But to your, and I'm sure everyones relief, the story of my vacation has now been told and shall not be revisited here or elsewhere, ever again.

Now go watch a Vicki video, you kook! I know I will. I even have a towel that still kinda smells like her that I may use as a jack rag. . .

Nyah nyah nyah!

http://www.moviewavs.com/0058493028/WAVS/Movies/Dumb_And_Dumber/loser.wav

Hehe, now i feel really sorry about you. ... a holly towel ... eeehhhehehe...

By the way - I never watched any of her movies, and i do not have any intention to do it. Why should i ?

[Danielle Foxxx]

I just farted - pewww it stinks - I hate politics - I like to fart - thats what I like

[stillies77]

i hate politics too and yet i have a degree in political science ( sure its an associates but still) its like i come on these boards for fun times and good talk...nukes just scare me...and iran is full of smellies hahaha.


smellies...sorta like your butt danielle hehe.

[specialk]

Well that is definitely a pacifist approach. "Let them get their nukes because they will only use them as a deterent." Brilliant. Yes we and Russia should just distribute them to everyone so everyone is on a level playing field. Nobody will really use them right?

Outside of Chefmike, Iran are some of the most extreme fanatical maniacs on the planet. They suicide bomb at the rate we drink and drive. Why? Because when they die as a martyr they get some crazy 50 virgins to fuck over and over for all eternity. I wonder what the women get. Oh right to be virgins.

Obviously the more countries who get nukes the more the world will be in danger. Those countries could be overrun by regime changes. Those countries could just be unstable enough, or not have security enough in place to prevent the trigger from getting pulled.

Vicki

"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle What'shischicken from Spiderman

Why talk about politics when you don't understand it or know anything about it?....

Most suicide bombers to it out of desperation (poverty, oppression.etc) and for their cause to be heard, for example the Palestinian cause in Israel.

Its depressing to hear people who obviously have no clue about the world around them to talk politics and try to sound like they know whats up.

Iran used to be one of the most civilised Islamic countries in the middle east until we armed Iraq with WMD and got it to invade the Iranians. It is correct that some of the Iranians in power are fanatical but so are the Bushs and MANY people in the United States, and Europe. Just look at the far right "christians" who are patiently waiting for the apocalyspe to goto heaven, and the neo nazis in England and France.

I dont want Iran to have nukes, but we arent setting a great example by not doing anything (no inspections, nada) about Pakistan (appaling rights record), Israel (like the latter), India and North Korea (appalling human rights record). Iran sees it as double standards which it is, the same way the Palestinian people see all humanitarian aid being cut off due to their democratic choices as wrong.

Please get a history lesson Vicki

Nicely handled metaltian, good post!

[scipio]

Well that is definitely a pacifist approach. "Let them get their nukes because they will only use them as a deterent." Brilliant. Yes we and Russia should just distribute them to everyone so everyone is on a level playing field. Nobody will really use them right?

Outside of Chefmike, Iran are some of the most extreme fanatical maniacs on the planet. They suicide bomb at the rate we drink and drive. Why? Because when they die as a martyr they get some crazy 50 virgins to fuck over and over for all eternity. I wonder what the women get. Oh right to be virgins.

Obviously the more countries who get nukes the more the world will be in danger. Those countries could be overrun by regime changes. Those countries could just be unstable enough, or not have security enough in place to prevent the trigger from getting pulled.

Vicki

"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle What'shischicken from Spiderman

Why talk about politics when you don't understand it or know anything about it?....

Most suicide bombers to it out of desperation (poverty, oppression.etc) and for their cause to be heard, for example the Palestinian cause in Israel.

Its depressing to hear people who obviously have no clue about the world around them to talk politics and try to sound like they know whats up.

Iran used to be one of the most civilised Islamic countries in the middle east until we armed Iraq with WMD and got it to invade the Iranians. It is correct that some of the Iranians in power are fanatical but so are the Bushs and MANY people in the United States, and Europe. Just look at the far right "christians" who are patiently waiting for the apocalyspe to goto heaven, and the neo nazis in England and France.

I dont want Iran to have nukes, but we arent setting a great example by not doing anything (no inspections, nada) about Pakistan (appaling rights record), Israel (like the latter), India and North Korea (appalling human rights record). Iran sees it as double standards which it is, the same way the Palestinian people see all humanitarian aid being cut off due to their democratic choices as wrong.

Please get a history lesson Vicki

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but what turned Iran from a modern civilized, secular country into a backwards autocracy was the Ayatollah Khomeni and his buddies, ie. radical funamentalist islamists, who took over from the Shah in a revolution in the early 1980s.

Although they have a president the power is mostly held by a council of Imams.

Also to compare Israel's human rights record with places like North Korea is a bit much. Yes they oppress people, but their human rights record against their own citizens is not that bad.

Oh boy, expecting the flame-back in ...3.....2.....1.....

[scipio]

Thats not correct Im afraid. There was a shah (Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlav) and a form of monarchy in rule before the Islamic revolution, he was a dictator and crushed anyone advocating democracy and reform.

Liberals, communists and Islamists then overthrew the Shah and instated the Supreme Ayatollah. Firstly the country became quite conservative but as time progressed, women received equal rights to men, transgenderism was accepted, and most people shared equal rights. However as soon as the Iran-Iraq war occured, this was all reversed.

I was just trying to state that before intervention it was becoming very liberal as far as Islamic republics go.

This is not correct either.

The Ayatollah and his party took over basically in May/June 1979, and by September 1980 the Iran/Iraq War had started.

So, it was only the space of one year in between events. It wasn't like "everything was going fine" in the space of that year either.

Yes the Shah was a bastard and all, but the fact is under him the Iranian government was a SECULAR state. After the Revolution it became a FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAMIST STATE.

The Shah was friendly with the west. The Ayatollah was not. The Iran Hostage Crisis started in November 1979, almost a year before the start of the Iran/Iraq War.

It wasn't the Iran/Iraq War that made them hate the USA. [/quote]

[Felicia Katt]

The Iranians hated us long before they ousted the Shah. They hated us for propping up an arrogant, brutal dictator. He may have had good relations with the West, but not with his own people. A revolt is really democracy in action, albeit in its most extreme form. Other than hypocritical economic self interest, how does a Democracy ever support a dictatorship? Its inherently contradictory to what are supposed to be its core principles.

The Iraq/Iran War was our war, through a tyrannical proxy, trying to get back by force what we had lost by neglect. Which is a very strange way to win back the hearts and minds of the Iranians, don't you think? We cared about what their country could do for us way more than we cared about their lives. And to this day, thats what we project to them.

FK

[specialk]

The Iranians hated us long before they ousted the Shah. They hated us for propping up an arrogant, brutal dictator. He may have had good relations with the West, but not with his own people. A revolt is really democracy in action, albeit in its most extreme form. Other than hypocritical economic self interest, how does a Democracy ever support a dictatorship? Its inherently contradictory to what are supposed to be its core principles.

The Iraq/Iran War was our war, through a tyrannical proxy, trying to get back by force what we had lost by neglect. Which is a very strange way to win back the hearts and minds of the Iranians, don't you think? We cared about what their country could do for us way more than we cared about their lives. And to this day, thats what we project to them.

FK

Felicia, you have the diagnosis on the money as usual. It can't be put anymore accurate....thank you for lending your insight to this post!

[scipio]

The Iranians hated us long before they ousted the Shah. They hated us for propping up an arrogant, brutal dictator. He may have had good relations with the West, but not with his own people. A revolt is really democracy in action, albeit in its most extreme form. Other than hypocritical economic self interest, how does a Democracy ever support a dictatorship? Its inherently contradictory to what are supposed to be its core principles.

The Iraq/Iran War was our war, through a tyrannical proxy, trying to get back by force what we had lost by neglect. Which is a very strange way to win back the hearts and minds of the Iranians, don't you think? We cared about what their country could do for us way more than we cared about their lives. And to this day, thats what we project to them.

FK

I am with you on that.

My only point was that it wasn't the Iran/Iraq war that started the whole problem. And, that during the Shah's reign the GOVERNMENT wasn't hostile to the west (only to its own people!) But the Shah was a bad bastard no doubt, what with SAVAK and all.

[plainBob]

Scipio you a fan of roman history? I am.

[scipio]

Scipio you a fan of roman history? I am.

Yep. Studied Ancient History at University (among other extraordinarily useful subjects).

Actually I do find it pretty relevant in light of current events, and the parallels between the USA and the Roman Empire.

[plainBob]

Yes ther are too many for my taste, but hey the empire of the united states sounds kool to me. So long as there are no Goths banging down the gates. Oh wait there are lol. By the way i like that you picked Spicio as a screen name.

[Nowhereboy]

Scipio,

I suggest you google the name Mohammed Mossadegh. We did not merely prop up a brutal dictator, the Shah, we led the overthrow of his popularly elected predecessor. Mossadegh is still an honored figure for the Iranian people. They still harbor resentment over our handling of that little event.

[Quinn]

Scipio you a fan of roman history? I am.

Yep. Studied Ancient History at University (among other extraordinarily useful subjects).

Actually I do find it pretty relevant in light of current events, and the parallels between the USA and the Roman Empire.

History is one of my interests, with ancient history being perhaps my favorite. I've found Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War to be very relevant to today's events. To me, Sparta's overextension of itself following its victory in the Peloponnesian War presents a particularly strong parallel to US actions after the Cold War.

-Quinn

[goldensamba]

It boils down the this. We must have an even handed appraoch. What is good for IRan is good for Israel. And calling Israel on not following the rules is not anti-sematic. If the US made Israel get rid of its nukes and quit assasinating people and bulldozing homes and give back the land to the ooriginal borders then it would be a good start.

This while at the same time ading pressure to the Palestinian idiots who are committing suicide bombings and funing terrorists to stop what they are doing. Until the is an EVEN approach this roblem will never end.

And to whomever it was who said the Saudis are out allies.....little piece of fact for you: 15 hijackers, Osama, funding for multiple terrorist groups....all from SA. If I had friends like that I would be a loner.

[plainBob]

LMAO... you cant make Israel stop anything. Here is a people that have been murdered for well over 2000yrs. They got blamed for everything from the Black Death to witchcraft. Not 61 years ago close to if not 6 million jews were killed by hitler. Now plz tell me how you are going to tell a people that were dam near exterminated to stop protecting themselfs. And as for the plo and other middle east grps, I'll back the jews over them anyday, main because it was the israel's land before the palestinian's. Make them stop lol thats like telling a cornered animal to lay down not goin to happen.

[specialk]

LMAO... you cant make Israel stop anything. Here is a people that have been murdered for well over 2000yrs. They got blamed for everything from the Black Death to witchcraft. Not 61 years ago close to if not 6 million jews were killed by hitler. Now plz tell me how you are going to tell a people that were dam near exterminated to stop protecting themselfs. And as for the plo and other middle east grps, I'll back the jews over them anyday, main because it was the israel's land before the palestinian's. Make them stop lol thats like telling a cornered animal to lay down not goin to happen.


Nobody doubts for a minute the existance of a Jewish people in the region of Egypt, Judea, modern day Jordan and Iraq. The problem is making the case that they controlled a part of that real estate over any lenghthy historical time. The name Palistinian is a more modern term used to describe a people who have been in that area at the same time as the Jews. Those people have gone under numerous name changes as have certain geographical areas have had name changes.

If you take the time to look at the link provided from Israel .org I've provided, it gives one pause to think that in the total 4000 yr. presence of Jewish people in the Middle East, you can plainly see those territories were controlled by any number of rulers, for example to Assyrians, Babalonians, Romans, Turks, Attila the Hun, Napolean, the British and a bunch more I left out. So here you have a situation that for thousands of yrs. the Jewish people SHARED the region with all the other tribes, cultures etc., but not really CONTROLLING the specific area in question Israel/Palistine for any appreciable time period.

In the 1920's under British rule, and persecution in Europe and Asia, The Brits allowed immigration back to the Middle East. In the next 20 or so yrs., under a terrorism effort by militant Jews, ( the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jeruselum killing 90, followed by the bombing of the railway station and many other attacks) the Brits threw up their hands and went to the United Nations and dumped it there lap. Finally, a vote was taken in 1948, and when Harry Truman reluctantly gave his blessing and the word Palestine was erased from the map and Israel replaced it. Check out the early history of the area in this link:

http://www.israel.org/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/History/Facts+About+Israel-+History.htm

[plainBob]

Looking at the link you posted i see, 1929 Hebron Jews massacred by Arab militants,1936-39 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants , 1948 End of British Mandate (14 May)
State of Israel proclaimed (14 May).
Israel invaded by five Arab states (15 May)
War of Independence (May 1948-July 1949)
Israel Defense Forces (IDF) established ,1967 Six-Day War, Jerusalem reunited,1968-70 Egypt's War of Attrition against Israel ,1973 Yom Kippur War , to name a few i saw on the link. I'm not saying noone else controlled that land. What i'm saying is that even after those kingdoms faded into dust the jews still lived there and those that were spread across the eath still see it as thier home. Much like greeks see Greece as theirs or germans look to Germany. In war its the winner that rights the history. And now its the Isrealies that reclaim thier motherland. As for jewish terrorists i looked and did not see that, link where you found that at i'd like to see it. The majority of hate i see comes from the middleeast. And it is sad that the jews still seem to be the targets. And how can you have peace with with a man or counrty that claims the holocaust was not real or that the attacks on the world trade center were carried out by the jews. Isreal is now like the kid in highschool that got picked on too much, he is going to blow and strike back. And may the gods have mercy on those that get in his way.

[specialk]

Looking at the link you posted i see, 1929 Hebron Jews massacred by Arab militants,1936-39 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants , 1948 End of British Mandate (14 May)
State of Israel proclaimed (14 May).
Israel invaded by five Arab states (15 May)
War of Independence (May 1948-July 1949)
Israel Defense Forces (IDF) established ,1967 Six-Day War, Jerusalem reunited,1968-70 Egypt's War of Attrition against Israel ,1973 Yom Kippur War , to name a few i saw on the link. I'm not saying noone else controlled that land. What i'm saying is that even after those kingdoms faded into dust the jews still lived there and those that were spread across the eath still see it as thier home. Much like greeks see Greece as theirs or germans look to Germany. In war its the winner that rights the history. And now its the Isrealies that reclaim thier motherland. As for jewish terrorists i looked and did not see that, link where you found that at i'd like to see it. The majority of hate i see comes from the middleeast. And it is sad that the jews still seem to be the targets. And how can you have peace with with a man or counrty that claims the holocaust was not real or that the attacks on the world trade center were carried out by the jews. Isreal is now like the kid in highschool that got picked on too much, he is going to blow and strike back. And may the gods have mercy on those that get in his way.


Listen, I gave you a brief outline of the history of the region over a 4000 yr. history. Of course their was retaliation from the Palestinians during the Jewish terror attacks in the 1920-1948 period. You won't find anything from an Israeli web site about Jewish terrorists. If you google such things as King David Hotel bombing, Stern Gang, Irgun fighters, you will learn something you didn't know.

The motivation for the bombing of the hotel was that a British delegation was staying there. They were going to put on the table a quota system of allowing a certain number of Jews into Palestine, with a limit on the total. Hence, the Jews said fuck this shit, and blew the joint up.

I didn't bother covering the history after '48. What is the point? THE QUESTION OF THE DAY WAS WHOSE LAND IS IT ANYWAY? And all I'm saying is it's very debatable it belongs to the Jews, given the entire history of controll of the land.

Your analogy of the kid in school is quite amusing, considering the US involvement after '48 made it possible for Israel to survive. Well over 100 billion in aid since then, mostly military hardware, including nukes.

Here's a link to the hotel bombing, you can find many other sites, including British ones with pics of headlines in daily papers back the. You might even google "Jewish terrorists" and have a field day with those results.

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

[plainBob]

I always have a fieldday on the net. Its where you find and meet interesting new people and facts you never knew before. 8)

[plainBob]

Here is something interesting.

What was the Egyptian purchase of Soviet arms in 1955?
In 1955 the first Egyptian-Soviet arms deal took place, disguised as a Egyptian-Czech transaction, an event which had a seriously destabilizing impact on the regional arms race. Egypt was able to purchase some two hundred tanks and other weapons after which the Tripartite Agreement of 1949 collapsed. France, motivated to help Israel by Egypt's support of Algerian rebels, sold about two hundred tanks to Israel.

The Egyptian-Czech arms deal of 1955 signalled the gradual opening up of the whole Soviet arsenal first to Egypt and subsequently also to Syria and to Iraq. Huge arms deals between the oil-producing states particularly Saudi Arabia - and the US have resulted in a flood of arms, which Israel had to take into account, in spite of American assurances that they were not intended for use against Israel. France, which at one time had been Israel's main, indeed only, supplier of military hardware, has meanwhile sold equivalent, or more modern equipment, to certain Arab states including Iraq.

Immediately after Nasser made his 1955 arms deal, Israel appealed to the United States — not for a gift of arms, but for the right to purchase them. The U.S. recognized the need to maintain an arms balance, but it referred Israel to France and other European suppliers. It was not until 1962 that the United States agreed to sell Israel its first significant American system, the HAWK anti-aircraft missile.

Another.

What did the Arabs do about Jordan's annexation of the parts of Palestine they captured?
In April 1950, Jordan annexed eastern Jerusalem (dividing the city for the first time in its history) and the "West Bank" areas in historical Judea and Samaria that Trans-Jordan had occupied by military force in 1948 (Jordan changed its name to Trans-Jordan in April 1949). On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a Resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conquerer. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did.

After the 1948 War for Independence and the Jordanian takeover, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, becoming part of Jordan's political system. Across the barbed wire that marked the dividing line, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. There was no outcry of claims of "Palestinian" identity being submerged by Jordan.


The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim.

The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

And agin.

What happened to Jewish Holy Sites and places of worship in lands controlled by the Arabs?
On May 28, 1948 the Arab Legion completed the capture of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, the site of numerous ancient synagogues and the Western Wall of the Temple, destroyed by the Romans in the year 70 AD. These were and remain the holiest sites in the Jewish religion.

After the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem was captured, the destruction, desecration and systematic looting of Jewish sites began and continued. 57 ancient synagogues (the oldest dated to the 13th century), libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The city's foremost Jewish shrine, the Western Wall, became a slum. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This condition continued until Jordan lost control of Jerusalem in June 1967.

On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement.

The Hurva Synagogue, attributed to Rabbi Moses Ben Nahman (Ramban), was the main synagogue in Jerusalem in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (and possibly much earlier), until the Ottomans closed it in 1589 because of Muslim incitement. It was burned by Arabs in 1721 (Hurva = destruction in Hebrew), but again rebuilt by Zionists in the 19th century, becoming the most prominent synagogue on the Jerusalem skyline. For that reason, when it was captured by the Arab Legion during the battle for Old Jerusalem in 1948, they dynamited it to show that they controlled the Jewish Quarter. When the Jews in New Jerusalem saw the Hurva burning, they knew that Jewish life in the Quarter had ended (again).

Access to the Holy Sites
When the 1948 war ended, and negotiations began, the Israeli representatives emphasized regaining access to Jewish Jerusalem. Article VIII of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement, signed on April 3, 1949, called for the establishment of a Special Committee:

... composed of two representatives of each Party for the purpose of formulating agreed plans" including "free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
Hopes were high that Jews might visit the Western Wall for Passover 1949, but the Jordanians violated the Armistice Agreement. These clauses were never honored. Promises continued to be made, and Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Arab Legion, pledged that:

Jerusalem's Arab and Jewish populations would be two separate cities with free trade and exchange between each other. The Arabs would be perfectly willing to allow the Jews to have access to their shrines, notably the Wailing Wall, now inside the Arab-held Old City.
The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

During the Jordanian occupation of Hebron from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor -- despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city. Additionally, the Jordanian authorities and local residents undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate any evidence of the Jewish presence in the city. They razed the Jewish Quarter, desecrated the Jewish cemetery and built an animal pen on the ruins of the Avraham Avinu synagogue

Although there were numerous discussions of this issue, and Israeli complaints, the Jordanians refused to honor the agreement, and the UN did not pass any resolutions against this treatment of Jewish religious institutions.

Go to this site its full of interesting things.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

[plainBob]

And even better one.

Are the West Bank and Gaza "occupied territories" as Palestinain Arabs assert?
As a result of the Six Day War, Israel gained all of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Sinai, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank (historically known as Judea and Samaria). Palestinian Arabs often insist on using the term "occupied territories" to describe these areas, usually connected to the assertion that they fall under the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. Yet, Palestinian spokesmen also speak about Israeli military action in Area A as an invasion, an infringement on Palestinian sovereignty. The use of both forms of terminology is a contradiction. If Israel "invaded Palestinian territories" in the present, then they cannot be regarded as "occupied"; however, if the territories are defined as "occupied," Israel cannot be "invading" them.

Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention:

... is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign.
In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states.

International jurists generally draw a distinction between situations of "aggressive conquest" and territorial disputes that arise after a war of self-defense. Former US State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case:

Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.
Israel only entered the West Bank in 1967 after repeated Jordanian artillery fire and ground movements across the previous armistice lines; additionally, Iraqi forces crossed Jordanian territory and were poised to enter the West Bank. Under such circumstances, even the United Nations rejected Soviet efforts to have Israel branded as the aggressor in the Six-Day War.

Regardless of how many times the Palestinian Arabs claim otherwise, Israel cannot be characterized as a "foreign occupier" with respect to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Fundamental sources of international legality decide the question in Israel's favor. The last international legal allocation of territory that includes what is today the West Bank and Gaza Strip occurred with the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine which recognized Jewish national rights in the whole of the Mandated territory, including the sector east of the Jordan River, almost 80% of the original Mandated territory, that was given to Palestinian Arabs and Emir Abdullah to create the country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). Moreover, the rights under the Mandate were preserved under the United Nations as well, according to Article 80 of the UN Charter, after the termination of the League of Nations in 1946.

It is important to observe that, from the time these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel in 1967, the territories were not refered to as "occupied" by the international community. Furthermore, the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called "Palestinians" as they are today; they were called Jordanians and Egyptians. (In fact, before Israel was founded Jews and Arabs alike who lived in the region were called Palestinians. The newspaper was the "Palestine Bulletin" and later the "Palestine Post" before becoming today's "Jerusalem Post", the Jewish-founded electric company was "Palestine Electric" and so on.) There was no call for "liberation" or "national rights" for the Arabs living there and no Palestinian nation was discussed.

No UN resolution requires Israel to withdraw unilaterally from the territories, nor do they forbid Israelis from going there to live. In particular, the often-misquoted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (and related Resolution 338) make no such demand or requirement. The demand that Israel stop creating "illegal settlements" is similarly baseless.

Under the Oslo Accords, the "peace process" started in 1991 at the Madrid Conference, Israel agreed to withdraw from the disputed territories and Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) was given control over land chosen so that more than ninety-nine percent of the Palestinian population lived under the jurisdiction of the PA. But the committment to Israel's security that was the backbone of the Oslo agreements was never honored by the PA and Israel was forced to periodically re-enter the ceded territory to quell terrorism. In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories.

Hell there was no palestin before Israel took over those areas.

[specialk]

Well PB, if your talking to me your too late. I've been to that site and dozens more, long long ago.(On a computer that is obsolete, where most of my bookmarks were left).

suffice it to say the entire area is very complex and messed up, mostly due to thousands of years of outside meddling. Agreed?

[plainBob]

Very much so. But it still falls to the Stick Law. "He who has the biggest stick makes the law" and right now its Israel. But in fact its a mute point in time all go the way of empires, forgotten.

[specialk]

Very much so. But it still falls to the Stick Law. "He who has the biggest stick makes the law" and right now its Israel. But in fact its a mute point in time all go the way of empires, forgotten.


with all due respect..."The Stick Law"???? You just lost most of your credibilty with that nonsense!!! :smh

[plainBob]

LOL i know but it sounded better that might makes right. 8)

[scipio]

Scipio you a fan of roman history? I am.

Yep. Studied Ancient History at University (among other extraordinarily useful subjects).

Actually I do find it pretty relevant in light of current events, and the parallels between the USA and the Roman Empire.

History is one of my interests, with ancient history being perhaps my favorite. I've found Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War to be very relevant to today's events. To me, Sparta's overextension of itself following its victory in the Peloponnesian War presents a particularly strong parallel to US actions after the Cold War.

-Quinn

That's an interesting view. When looking at the Peleponnesian War as a parralel, I usually associated the USA with Athens. In particular, the US subjugation of somewhat unwilling client states, such as Melos. The main grudge from many of Athen's client states I believe came after the beginning of their rule, when tribute (read: taxation) was increased to maintain the Athenian fleet. Of course there were many other factors, but in the end the combination of oppression against the island subjects, inept rule by both Demagogues and Oligarchs, and mostly critically in my view, their rejection of Alcibiades, really did Athens in.

But I agree with you in terms of Sparta's "imperial overstretch" after the end of the war. Although I wonder if perhaps the replay of that part of history has yet to manifest itself in modern times, unless perhaps it already did in the guise of the Soviet Union, which had a great deal in common with Sparta in terms of the strict regimentation and regulation of society.

[Quinn]

Scipio you a fan of roman history? I am.

Yep. Studied Ancient History at University (among other extraordinarily useful subjects).

Actually I do find it pretty relevant in light of current events, and the parallels between the USA and the Roman Empire.

History is one of my interests, with ancient history being perhaps my favorite. I've found Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War to be very relevant to today's events. To me, Sparta's overextension of itself following its victory in the Peloponnesian War presents a particularly strong parallel to US actions after the Cold War.

-Quinn

That's an interesting view. When looking at the Peleponnesian War as a parralel, I usually associated the USA with Athens. In particular, the US subjugation of somewhat unwilling client states, such as Melos. The main grudge from many of Athen's client states I believe came after the beginning of their rule, when tribute (read: taxation) was increased to maintain the Athenian fleet. Of course there were many other factors, but in the end the combination of oppression against the island subjects, inept rule by both Demagogues and Oligarchs, and mostly critically in my view, their rejection of Alcibiades, really did Athens in.

But I agree with you in terms of Sparta's "imperial overstretch" after the end of the war. Although I wonder if perhaps the replay of that part of history has yet to manifest itself in modern times, unless perhaps it already did in the guise of the Soviet Union, which had a great deal in common with Sparta in terms of the strict regimentation and regulation of society.

Originally, like most people, I, too, associated Athens with the US and Sparta with the USSR. These are easy associations to make given the marked differences in how each respective state approached issues of governance, defense, trade, and its own citizenry. I think these conclusions are perfectly reasonable and valid. That said, if one looks at how success in the Peloponnesian War slowly, but decisively, changed not only Sparta’s foreign policy, but also its very character they will find the inverse to be true in many instances.

Think about it. Until the Peloponnesian War, Sparta had been a fairly insular state content to allow other powers (Athens, Perisa, etc.) their own spheres of influence – so long as they didn’t threaten Spartan dominance of the Peloponnese (Monroe Doctrine, anyone?). This closely mirrors the largely isolationist sentiment that dominated US foreign policy up and until the close of World War II and the onset of the Cold War, both of which produced definitive changes in Washington’s approach to issues occurring outside of the Americas (its own traditional sphere of influence).

By the close of the Peloponnesian War, Sparta had generated for itself an enormous amount of international good will by means of successfully portraying itself as a liberating power determined to stop Athens from subjugating the entirety of the Hellenes. However, once Sparta realized that, with the defeat of Athens, no power within the Hellenes could oppose its will, it became progressively more aggressive and arrogant. In short, the traditionally conservative and cautious Spartans – drunk with power – became sloppy in the allocation of their resources. So far as any historical parallel is concerned, Sparta’s unrivalled position and subsequent conduct at the end of Peloponnesian War closely resembles that of the United States at the end of the Cold War.

The aforementioned comparison becomes even more relevant when we consider that, within a relatively short period of time, Sparta went from being perceived as a liberator and protector to the primary threat by many states within the Hellenes. Slow to notice the changes that were taking place, Sparta’s leadership (Kings, Ephors, etc.) continued to overextend their state’s resources – particularly their manpower – in a series of foreign engagements they could ill afford. Sparta’s downfall can be directly traced to the manner in which it overextended itself attempting to continually perpetuate its hegemonic status at the end of the Peloponnesian War.

-Quinn

[White_Male_Canada]

WARNING: Graphic video after a torture session in an Iranian prison

http://priceofthefreedom.blogspot.com/2006/05/masour-osanlo-after-his-torure-by_18.html

[plainBob]

lets not forget that the Holocaust wasn't all jews aswell, half of the deaths were jews, the other half was liberals, communists, disabled, mentally ill, and homosexuals.etc. Yet unfortunately holocaust is usually just associated with the jews.

The numbers of those groups killed by the nazis. This comes from wikipedia.

5.1–6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[23]
1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[24]
500,000–1.2 million Serbs killed by Croat Nazis
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000–200,000 Freemasons [25]
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

So yes it was around 6million jews give or take. This comes from German records of the time. The number more than likely higher.

[plainBob]

Heres a link for ya specialk. You more than likely found it already but hey i got a kick out of it.

http://www.nyjtimes.com/cover/03-22-05/Arabs&Nazis-CanItBeTrue.htm

[scipio]

Originally, like most people, I, too, associated Athens with the US and Sparta with the USSR. These are easy associations to make given the marked differences in how each respective state approached issues of governance, defense, trade, and its own citizenry. I think these conclusions are perfectly reasonable and valid. That said, if one looks at how success in the Peloponnesian War slowly, but decisively, changed not only Sparta’s foreign policy, but also its very character they will find the inverse to be true in many instances.

Think about it. Until the Peloponnesian War, Sparta had been a fairly insular state content to allow other powers (Athens, Perisa, etc.) their own spheres of influence – so long as they didn’t threaten Spartan dominance of the Peloponnese (Monroe Doctrine, anyone?). This closely mirrors the largely isolationist sentiment that dominated US foreign policy up and until the close of World War II and the onset of the Cold War, both of which produced definitive changes in Washington’s approach to issues occurring outside of the Americas (its own traditional sphere of influence).

By the close of the Peloponnesian War, Sparta had generated for itself an enormous amount of international good will by means of successfully portraying itself as a liberating power determined to stop Athens from subjugating the entirety of the Hellenes. However, once Sparta realized that, with the defeat of Athens, no power within the Hellenes could oppose its will, it became progressively more aggressive and arrogant. In short, the traditionally conservative and cautious Spartans – drunk with power – became sloppy in the allocation of their resources. So far as any historical parallel is concerned, Sparta’s unrivalled position and subsequent conduct at the end of Peloponnesian War closely resembles that of the United States at the end of the Cold War.

The aforementioned comparison becomes even more relevant when we consider that, within a relatively short period of time, Sparta went from being perceived as a liberator and protector to the primary threat by many states within the Hellenes. Slow to notice the changes that were taking place, Sparta’s leadership (Kings, Ephors, etc.) continued to overextend their state’s resources – particularly their manpower – in a series of foreign engagements they could ill afford. Sparta’s downfall can be directly traced to the manner in which it overextended itself attempting to continually perpetuate its hegemonic status at the end of the Peloponnesian War.

-Quinn

I agree with the parallels you mentioned to a large degree.

Another which is not precise but is worth considering in a strange way is the alliance that Sparta formed in the Eastern Aegean with Persia, in order to defeat Athens.

Essentially all Greek states, and especially those in the Eastern Aegean and Asian Minor, saw the Persians as opressors of all greeks alike. Defense against the Persians was a common cry of greek co-operation for much of the 5th Century BC (e.g. Thermopylae, Platea, etc.)

For Sparta to form an alliance with them, albeit a purely financial one, the height of hypocracy, at least it should have been in the minds of many Greeks.

Now, contrast that with the USA's current occupation of Iraq - "liberating" it, while at the same time having an alliance with Israel, whom most ARab states consider a sworn enemy.

I know the parallel is not exact in every aspect of its relationship, but I think it bears examination to a certain extent. Certainly there are plenty of holes there, but by the same token some tantalizing similarities.

[Ben]

What about American nukes?

The People Guarding US Nukes Will Shock You - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6KERH9HeYc)