B.C T-girls/ are they attrctive without...?

[mac.B]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately bout a myriad of things, one of which was my attraction to t-girls. I luv t-girls and def. respect the transition. The surgeries and HRT arent things that the average person can endure without it driving them completely insane (probably why there are so many gay men who resent TS b/c of the fact that they are too affraid to transition) and I commend that.

But what if there were no surgeries or HRT? What then? T-girls have been around for the entire human experience and have always dated men. But how did they stay feminine back then without having all of that work done? I'm talking to a girl right now who is 100% natural but even she's taken hormones at some point.

Looking at pictures of the Hijras of India (who I guess are "natural" t-girls) Scares the fuck out of me b/c none that I've seen are even remotely attractive. I've maybe only seen 2 or 3 examples of pretty Hijras out of the scores I've seen in photos. This is kind of weirding me out. Can TS be pretty without surgery or HRT in your opinion? Have you seen any who have and how long do they keep their feminine appearance? The only example that I have Jaye Davidson who used to be sexy and fem but is now...a dude.

Dont get me wrong I love natural t-girls just as much as I like girls who've had work done. I love the whole spectrum but my preference is natural girls. I know that the Kalena Rios picture below is probably the most fem that a girl can look without any work and I'm more than cool with that. But Is that common for girls? And, again, how long can a natural girl keep her femininity?


Thoughts anyone?

[danthepoetman]

I suspect that indeed, Mac, there were always many. But unless they have a specific biological condition, they will always eventually loose the soft features they sometimes have in their youth. Then again, there is a large number of conditions by which someone can retain a very youthfull, and sometimes a feminine aspect. But today, there is therapy to allow people with such conditions to make a definite choice.
Although to me a guy is a guy and a girl is a girl (and I mean t or g), I admit that I am fascinated by these males who can embody some level of convincing femininity without hormones. There are some. And it's just perplexing to me.

[RyderMonroe]

They probably used castration and plant based phytoestrogens.

[danthepoetman]

Jee! Ryder, you know it's not easy to concentrate on what you're saying with this avatar... lol
But absolutely, I'm sure in the long gone past, there must have been some kind of feminizing processes.

[MacShreach]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately bout a myriad of things, one of which was my attraction to t-girls. I luv t-girls and def. respect the transition. The surgeries and HRT arent things that the average person can endure without it driving them completely insane (probably why there are so many gay men who resent TS b/c of the fact that they are too affraid to transition) and I commend that.

But what if there were no surgeries or HRT? What then? T-girls have been around for the entire human experience and have always dated men. But how did they stay feminine back then without having all of that work done? I'm talking to a girl right now who is 100% natural but even she's taken hormones at some point.

Looking at pictures of the Hijras of India (who I guess are "natural" t-girls) Scares the fuck out of me b/c none that I've seen are even remotely attractive. I've maybe only seen 2 or 3 examples of pretty Hijras out of the scores I've seen in photos. This is kind of weirding me out. Can TS be pretty without surgery or HRT in your opinion? Have you seen any who have and how long do they keep their feminine appearance? The only example that I have Jaye Davidson who used to be sexy and fem but is now...a dude.

Dont get me wrong I love natural t-girls just as much as I like girls who've had work done. I love the whole spectrum but my preference is natural girls. I know that the Kalena Rios picture below is probably the most fem that a girl can look without any work and I'm more than cool with that. But Is that common for girls? And, again, how long can a natural girl keep her femininity?


Thoughts anyone?

The hijra in India self-castrate, and this practice was followed by the worshippers of Cybele, a Phrygian Goddess imported to Rome around the time of the Punic Wars (with Carthage). The same thing has been suggested happened in the temples of Inanna in Sumer 7000 years ago, and even though evidence is sketchy at best it's certainly plausible.

Not all traditional transwomen do this, for example the Fa'afafine of Samoa, though. However their femininity is more expressed by social role than appearance, which is the other answer to your question: femininity is a construct of appearance and behaviour and it's quite possible to have one without the other. In these cases, the transwomen are much more like what in the west would be considered feminine gay men.

The Spanish colonisers of South America and the Philippines both recorded finding transwomen. In Peru and other parts of South America, they were persecuted because they were regarded as witches. They probably were shamans or priestesses and very possibly helped organise resistance to the Spanish, just as the druids helped the Gauls organise against the Romans. We don't know whether they used self-castration or perhaps even drugs to suppress their masculinity.

Feminising hormones are actually quite easy to get and you don't need modern production techniques. Drinking the right pee will do it. One modern source is pregnant mare urine, which gives PreMarIn, a form of estrogen. The urine of any pregnant mammal is rich in estrogen and it's quite possible that this was used directly. In fact given the popularity of Goddess culture in many parts of the ancient world, and the fact that we know that menstrual fluid was thought to be sacred, we have to consider the possibility that the urine of pregnant women was too, perhaps for this reason.To put it bluntly, removal of the testicles and drinking female pee, or plant-derived estrogens as Ryder noted, would pretty much do the trick.


There's more on this on my blog. (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/)

[MacShreach]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately bout a myriad of things, one of which was my attraction to t-girls. I luv t-girls and def. respect the transition. The surgeries and HRT arent things that the average person can endure without it driving them completely insane (probably why there are so many gay men who resent TS b/c of the fact that they are too affraid to transition) and I commend that.

But what if there were no surgeries or HRT? What then? T-girls have been around for the entire human experience and have always dated men. But how did they stay feminine back then without having all of that work done? I'm talking to a girl right now who is 100% natural but even she's taken hormones at some point.

Looking at pictures of the Hijras of India (who I guess are "natural" t-girls) Scares the fuck out of me b/c none that I've seen are even remotely attractive. I've maybe only seen 2 or 3 examples of pretty Hijras out of the scores I've seen in photos. This is kind of weirding me out. Can TS be pretty without surgery or HRT in your opinion? Have you seen any who have and how long do they keep their feminine appearance? The only example that I have Jaye Davidson who used to be sexy and fem but is now...a dude.

Dont get me wrong I love natural t-girls just as much as I like girls who've had work done. I love the whole spectrum but my preference is natural girls. I know that the Kalena Rios picture below is probably the most fem that a girl can look without any work and I'm more than cool with that. But Is that common for girls? And, again, how long can a natural girl keep her femininity?


Thoughts anyone?

Teasing out your question--I think there are actually three in there--we have discussed the hormonal side which is really not that difficult to achieve, even without modern drugs. The surgery is a lot more complex, because it is only quite recently that this has been developed. Essentially the key to successful transition is to begin young, by which I mean in the early teens. Once male puberty occurs, the options run out quickly. Some ehtnicities are naturally more softly-featured than Western Caucasians (I think it's the Neanderthal blood myself) so they can get away with waiting a bit, but even in Asia, girls have to start hormones by their late teens/early twenties. Where transition begins later a lot of surgery is required.

However, we are all conceived as girls and men become masculine through a series of exposures to testosterone. Take away the testosterone early enough and we will develop into women instead. A clear example of this is in Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, where the individual has XY chromosomes but is born with a vagina and develops into a woman; often the actual syndrome is only discovered when she finds she can't menstruate or become pregnant. These women live all their lives as women with no surgery and simply the effects of natural (to them) androgen blockers.

So this is a really complex question. Quite a lot of the girls we like actually self-med and some of the regimes they use are umm, a bit unscientific--usually what one of their big sisters recommends. Most usually they blitz with estrogen. Unfortunately too much estrogen can also masculinise, and the right approach is to suppress testosterone with an androgen blocker (or removal of testes inc. via SRS) and then apply a lower dose of estrogen. Where this is done early enough, the results can be really convincing. In fact so convincing that the women just vanish altogether, because they are living as women, often married.

Even where transwomen live as transwomen but are able to function in that role, such as in Thailand, you see a range from totally feminine to not so much. Partly that's to do with natural features but mainly it's about when they started: the younger they do, the more successful it will probably be, and as long as they maintain the regime (which a lot of girls do not, for various reasons) then they will never masculinise.

However, this presents a huge moral dilemma for the parents and guardians of transchildren.

[mac.B]

The hijra in India self-castrate, and this practice was followed by the worshippers of Cybele, a Phrygian Goddess imported to Rome around the time of the Punic Wars (with Carthage). The same thing has been suggested happened in the temples of Inanna in Sumer 7000 years ago, and even though evidence is sketchy at best it's certainly plausible.

Not all traditional transwomen do this, for example the Fa'afafine of Samoa, though. However their femininity is more expressed by social role than appearance, which is the other answer to your question: femininity is a construct of appearance and behaviour and it's quite possible to have one without the other. In these cases, the transwomen are much more like what in the west would be considered feminine gay men.

The Spanish colonisers of South America and the Philippines both recorded finding transwomen. In Peru and other parts of South America, they were persecuted because they were regarded as witches. They probably were shamans or priestesses and very possibly helped organise resistance to the Spanish, just as the druids helped the Gauls organise against the Romans. We don't know whether they used self-castration or perhaps even drugs to suppress their masculinity.

Feminising hormones are actually quite easy to get and you don't need modern production techniques. Drinking the right pee will do it. One modern source is pregnant mare urine, which gives PreMarIn, a form of estrogen. The urine of any pregnant mammal is rich in estrogen and it's quite possible that this was used directly. In fact given the popularity of Goddess culture in many parts of the ancient world, and the fact that we know that menstrual fluid was thought to be sacred, we have to consider the possibility that the urine of pregnant women was too, perhaps for this reason.To put it bluntly, removal of the testicles and drinking female pee, or plant-derived estrogens as Ryder noted, would pretty much do the trick.


There's more on this on my blog. (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/)


Wow...its amazing what people, just, know sometimes. I appreciate the info it really help put things in perspective. Sorry to say that this thread was more about me and my vanity. It's been about eight years since o discovered that I like tgirls trying to understand why the entire time. It didnt feel like a fetish.I know what it feels like b/c i actually have a fetish, an ass fetish. I must like the butt of anyone im involved with intimately. This is a must. With TS tho my attraction never reached the level of necessity as my urges can be satisfid by either TS or GG (back then anyway) yet I was still attracted enough to where I could take one seriously as a friend or otherwise. I didnt feel sick and I didnt think anything was wrong with being ts either.


It didnt add up. The attraction felt normal but there was no way that it could be b/c there is no such thing as a tgirl in nature. It really messed my head up. Maybe I was wrong and I was a pervert had a thing for topping fem boys in dress. This is a really difficult reality to express to a girl who youre trying to have sex with.

Agonizing over trying to understand why i wnted "chix wit' dix" got the best of me and I needed answers. What I found was that all forms of LBGT activity existed in the ancient world, including transsexuals who married men. They were held to high esteem where theye were recognized and held a respected position in society, a complete 180 from these times. So I understood that they dated men but that still didnt make sense to me as the girl would eventually become more masculine in appearence. If men understood this fact about them I doubt that this would happen often b/c men are visual and less sexually fluid. If we start out being attracted to soft, smooth and perky then at no point will we convert to likeing rough and scarred. Maybe my thinking is foolish and I'm looking at this from the prospective of a 21st century itunes kid. Regardless, this is what made sense to me so thats why your info is so interesting. If what youre saying is true and the look of a hormone-only tgirl can be achieved and maintained naturally then this means that a group of men can finally be called something a little more politically correct than "tranny chaser".

Also MacShreach; I found it interesting that when religion spread the first thing to go was the two-spirited person. What do you think that says about the sort of, maybe, power or prestige they had before then?

[MacShreach]

Wow...its amazing what people, just, know sometimes. I appreciate the info it really help put things in perspective. Sorry to say that this thread was more about me and my vanity. It's been about eight years since o discovered that I like tgirls trying to understand why the entire time. It didnt feel like a fetish.I know what it feels like b/c i actually have a fetish, an ass fetish. I must like the butt of anyone im involved with intimately. This is a must. With TS tho my attraction never reached the level of necessity as my urges can be satisfid by either TS or GG (back then anyway) yet I was still attracted enough to where I could take one seriously as a friend or otherwise. I didnt feel sick and I didnt think anything was wrong with being ts either.


It didnt add up. The attraction felt normal but there was no way that it could be b/c there is no such thing as a tgirl in nature. It really messed my head up. Maybe I was wrong and I was a pervert had a thing for topping fem boys in dress. This is a really difficult reality to express to a girl who youre trying to have sex with.

Agonizing over trying to understand why i wnted "chix wit' dix" got the best of me and I needed answers. What I found was that all forms of LBGT activity existed in the ancient world, including transsexuals who married men. They were held to high esteem where theye were recognized and held a respected position in society, a complete 180 from these times. So I understood that they dated men but that still didnt make sense to me as the girl would eventually become more masculine in appearence. If men understood this fact about them I doubt that this would happen often b/c men are visual and less sexually fluid. If we start out being attracted to soft, smooth and perky then at no point will we convert to likeing rough and scarred. Maybe my thinking is foolish and I'm looking at this from the prospective of a 21st century itunes kid. Regardless, this is what made sense to me so thats why your info is so interesting. If what youre saying is true and the look of a hormone-only tgirl can be achieved and maintained naturally then this means that a group of men can finally be called something a little more politically correct than "tranny chaser".

Also MacShreach; I found it interesting that when religion spread the first thing to go was the two-spirited person. What do you think that says about the sort of, maybe, power or prestige they had before then?

When you say 'religion' I think you mean 'Christianity' so I'll take it that way. All the Abrahamic religions are strictly patriarchal and this comes from social changes in Hebrew culture in the first and second millennia bce. Prior to this, women were very much involved in religion and elsewhere, this continued into Roman times.

Political power and religious power in the Ancient World were literally the same thing. Beginning in the 8th century bce, under King Josiah, Jewish history, which was codified in what Christians call the Old Testament, was systematically rewritten to remove any reference to the goddesses the Jews had previously worshipped, eg Astarte and Asherah, by a series of kings and supporting male priesthoods who were determined to remove women (genetic or trans) from access to power.

Christianity did not begin as misogynistic, indeed the opposite, but Catholicism became so from around the 7th century ce onwards. Protestantism, especially the Calvinist form, was and remains virulently misogynistic and homophobic. (Christian homophobia derives from misogyny; it is a reaction against people who are perceived as men because they have penises but who renounce this and behave like women. The point is, women are so much lower in status in Christian cultures that for a man to deny his maleness is a scandal that shames all men.)

Now the berdache or two-spirit peoples are not my specific area (Dan might be a better source there) but I am sure that when Native American culture came under the influence of Christianity, the purges of transgender people began.

As Christian colonists spread across the world from Europe from the 15th century ce on, wherever they found Goddess worship, transgender or homosexuality they did their utmost to eradicate it. The consequences of this can be seen all over the Christian world to this day.

(The same is broadly true of Islam, if anything more virulently so. Islam is an Abrahamic religion itself, with a specific reaction to the older culture of the Arabian triple goddess Al'Uzza, Al'lat and Manat.)

All the Abrahamic religions are almost certainly derived from the sun-worshipping monotheism of the Pharaoh Akhenaten, who lived in the middle of the second millennium bce. Some scholars have even argued that Moses was in fact Akhenaten. Whatever the specific origin, montheisms are peculiarly unable to tolerate any difference of opinion: one god, one truth and so on. Polytheistic cultures tend to be more accepting of difference.

So, to answer your question, we know that across the ancient world, goddess worship was widespread and often dominant. Since the Goddess was always served by women (either genetic or trans) and political power and religious power were synonymous, women certainly had a lot of it.

[mac.B]

When you say 'religion' I think you mean 'Christianity' so I'll take it that way. All the Abrahamic religions are strictly patriarchal and this comes from social changes in Hebrew culture in the first and second millennia bce. Prior to this, women were very much involved in religion and elsewhere, this continued into Roman times.

Political power and religious power in the Ancient World were literally the same thing. Beginning in the 8th century bce, under King Josiah, Jewish history, which was codified in what Christians call the Old Testament, was systematically rewritten to remove any reference to the goddesses the Jews had previously worshipped, eg Astarte and Asherah, by a series of kings and supporting male priesthoods who were determined to remove women (genetic or trans) from access to power.

Christianity did not begin as misogynistic, indeed the opposite, but Catholicism became so from around the 7th century ce onwards. Protestantism, especially the Calvinist form, was and remains virulently misogynistic and homophobic. (Christian homophobia derives from misogyny; it is a reaction against people who are perceived as men because they have penises but who renounce this and behave like women. The point is, women are so much lower in status in Christian cultures that for a man to deny his maleness is a scandal that shames all men.)

Now the berdache or two-spirit peoples are not my specific area (Dan might be a better source there) but I am sure that when Native American culture came under the influence of Christianity, the purges of transgender people began.

As Christian colonists spread across the world from Europe from the 15th century ce on, wherever they found Goddess worship, transgender or homosexuality they did their utmost to eradicate it. The consequences of this can be seen all over the Christian world to this day.

(The same is broadly true of Islam, if anything more virulently so. Islam is an Abrahamic religion itself, with a specific reaction to the older culture of the Arabian triple goddess Al'Uzza, Al'lat and Manat.)

All the Abrahamic religions are almost certainly derived from the sun-worshipping monotheism of the Pharaoh Akhenaten, who lived in the middle of the second millennium bce. Some scholars have even argued that Moses was in fact Akhenaten. Whatever the specific origin, montheisms are peculiarly unable to tolerate any difference of opinion: one god, one truth and so on. Polytheistic cultures tend to be more accepting of difference.

So, to answer your question, we know that across the ancient world, goddess worship was widespread and often dominant. Since the Goddess was always served by women (either genetic or trans) and political power and religious power were synonymous, women certainly had a lot of it.

Its funny that you mentioned Akhenaten as I meant to reference him earlier in my original post (couldnt spell his name). There are some scholars who insist that he was a sort of "two-spirit" and dressed as a female would in his time.

[bluesoul]

But what if there were no surgeries or HRT? What then?


Thoughts anyone?

i've actually thought about this in another way. let's say there was a war, or you were stuck on a desert island, unable to get to modern society and you're with your mate who happens to be transsexual.

what happens if one is unable to provide hormones? a lot of the people say they are attracted to transsexuals due to their feminine nature and looks.

what about in a war situation, where medical priorities do not permit for the necessary hormones etc. to be available? or everyday luxuries such as makeup or clean water suddenly become currency- what happens now?

[mac.B]

i've actually thought about this in another way. let's say there was a war, or you were stuck on a desert island, unable to get to modern society and you're with your mate who happens to be transsexual.

what happens if one is unable to provide hormones? a lot of the people say they are attracted to transsexuals due to their feminine nature and looks.

what about in a war situation, where medical priorities do not permit for the necessary hormones etc. to be available? or everyday luxuries such as makeup or clean water suddenly become currency- what happens now?


Thats exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. I like ts women but I was afraid that my attraction was based on the "illusion" so to speak. I'm coming in to the understanding these girls are prob my first choice which is a scary thing seeing as how their physical beauty is largely based on them internalizing things that are innately foreign to them...one of the few things I dont like about being with them. That and the low self esteem thing.