Time to get real on who the enemy is

[Prospero]

There are endless silly debates on here as to whether men who enjoy particular sexual practices with Transexuals are gay or not. The underlying prejudice seeming to be the idea that gayness is something negative. It brings forth vicious attacks from a variety of individuals who should know better.

Let's get real in recognising the true dangers both gay and the transgendered face and stop this crass infighting.

In the wider world such distinctions between gay and transgender are often not made. All are subject to mild or strong discrimination in many parts of the world. Both are minorities who face a range of threats in the world - from social discrimination to violence ranging from beatings to death.

It is time to make common cause and to stop slagging each other off.

In the UK today the Right wing of the Conservative party is leading a revolt against plans to legalise gay marriage. Beneath it is a narrow minded bigotry that still can scarcely accept the sexuality of anyone who is not 100 per cent heterosexual.

But it can be worse. This is a story from today's New York Times about attacks on a gay rights march in the former Soviet republic of Georgia.


Crowd Led by Priests Attacks Gay Rights Marchers in Georgia


By ANDREW ROTH
§

MOSCOW — A throng of thousands led by priests in black robes surged through police cordons in downtown Tbilisi, Georgia, on Friday and attacked a group of about 50 gay rights demonstrators.

A police officer helped an injured man. Gay rights marchers said priests from the Georgian Orthodox Church led the charge past police cordons.
Carrying banners reading “No to mental genocide” and “No to gays,” the masses of mostly young men began by hurling rocks and eggs at the gay rights demonstrators.

The police pushed most of the demonstrators onto yellow minibuses to evacuate them from the scene, but, the attackers swarmed the buses, trying to break the windows with metal gratings, trash cans, rocks and even fists.

At least 12 people were reported hospitalized, including three police officers and eight or nine of the gay rights marchers.

“They wanted to kill all of us,” said Irakli Vacharadze, the head of Identoba, the Tbilisi-based gay rights advocacy group that organized the rally.

Nino Bolkvadze, 35, a lawyer for the group who was among the marchers, said that if they had not been close to the buses when the violence began, “we would all have been corpses.”

Prime Minister Bidzina Ivanishvili of Georgia condemned the violence in a news release Friday evening, as the police urged the mobs to leave the city’s central avenue.

The attack comes amid an increase in antigay talk in Russia and Georgia, whose Orthodox churches are gaining political influence.

In a statement Wednesday, the leader of the Georgian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Ilia II, compared homosexuals to drug addicts and called the rally a “violation of the rights of the majority” of Georgians.

Conservative-minded Georgians traveled from other cities to condemn the gay rights demonstrators, and one told a television station that she had come to “treat their illness.”

“We are trying to protect our orthodoxy, not to let anyone to wipe their feet on our faith,” said Manana Okhanashvili, in a head scarf and long skirt. “We must not allow them to have a gay demonstration here.”

In a telephone interview, Mr. Vacharadze of Identoba said that priests from the Georgian Orthodox Church had led the charge that broke through a heavy police corridor.

“The priests entered, the priests broke the fences and the police didn’t stop them, because the priests are above the law in Georgia,” he said.

Ms. Bolkvadze, the lawyer with Identoba, speaking by telephone from a safe house in the city, said that despite promises from the police that there would be “unprecedented” protection for the rally, the riot police were unprepared.

“They didn’t have helmets,” she said. “They didn’t have the right equipment.”

[Willie Escalade]

If you're not feeding me, funding me, or fucking me, your opinion ABOUT me means jack shit to me. That's in reply to the "Am-I-Gay" and "Top-versus-Bottom" threads.

In that article, I kept thinking this was in the STATE of Georgia...where I could see something like this happening.

[MacShreach]

If you're not feeding me, funding me, or fucking me, your opinion ABOUT me means jack shit to me. That's in reply to the "Am-I-Gay" and "Top-versus-Bottom" threads.

In that article, I kept thinking this was in the STATE of Georgia...where I could see something like this happening.
Homophobic violence and prejudice is shocking, and extremely widespread. It is also, unfortunately, strongly promoted by religious bigots. But even in a proudly secular state such as the one I live in, it is still a constant threat; in the run up to the vote on same-sex marriages here there was a rash of homophobic attacks, which seems to have abated somewhat now, thankfully.

And yes, I am fully aware, and always have been, that my liking for cute young transsexuals is seen by most of straight society as gay, and in any case I have always been an advocate for gay rights, ever since I was an undergrad student. My argument has always been with men who deny that they are gay, presumably to avoid the social consequences of a public admission, while indulging in practices that strongly suggest otherwise. And it remains so.

[robertlouis]

There are endless silly debates on here as to whether men who enjoy particular sexual practices with Transexuals are gay or not. The underlying prejudice seeming to be the idea that gayness is something negative. It brings forth vicious attacks from a variety of individuals who should know better.

Let's get real in recognising the true dangers both gay and the transgendered face and stop this crass infighting.

In the wider world such distinctions between gay and transgender are often not made. All are subject to mild or strong discrimination in many parts of the world. Both are minorities who face a range of threats in the world - from social discrimination to violence ranging from beatings to death.

It is time to make common cause and to stop slagging each other off.

In the UK today the Right wing of the Conservative party is leading a revolt against plans to legalise gay marriage. Beneath it is a narrow minded bigotry that still can scarcely accept the sexuality of anyone who is not 100 per cent heterosexual.

But it can be worse. This is a story from today's New York Times about attacks on a gay rights march in the former Soviet republic of Georgia.


Crowd Led by Priests Attacks Gay Rights Marchers in Georgia


By ANDREW ROTH
§

MOSCOW — A throng of thousands led by priests in black robes surged through police cordons in downtown Tbilisi, Georgia, on Friday and attacked a group of about 50 gay rights demonstrators.

A police officer helped an injured man. Gay rights marchers said priests from the Georgian Orthodox Church led the charge past police cordons.
Carrying banners reading “No to mental genocide” and “No to gays,” the masses of mostly young men began by hurling rocks and eggs at the gay rights demonstrators.

The police pushed most of the demonstrators onto yellow minibuses to evacuate them from the scene, but, the attackers swarmed the buses, trying to break the windows with metal gratings, trash cans, rocks and even fists.

At least 12 people were reported hospitalized, including three police officers and eight or nine of the gay rights marchers.

“They wanted to kill all of us,” said Irakli Vacharadze, the head of Identoba, the Tbilisi-based gay rights advocacy group that organized the rally.

Nino Bolkvadze, 35, a lawyer for the group who was among the marchers, said that if they had not been close to the buses when the violence began, “we would all have been corpses.”

Prime Minister Bidzina Ivanishvili of Georgia condemned the violence in a news release Friday evening, as the police urged the mobs to leave the city’s central avenue.

The attack comes amid an increase in antigay talk in Russia and Georgia, whose Orthodox churches are gaining political influence.

In a statement Wednesday, the leader of the Georgian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Ilia II, compared homosexuals to drug addicts and called the rally a “violation of the rights of the majority” of Georgians.

Conservative-minded Georgians traveled from other cities to condemn the gay rights demonstrators, and one told a television station that she had come to “treat their illness.”

“We are trying to protect our orthodoxy, not to let anyone to wipe their feet on our faith,” said Manana Okhanashvili, in a head scarf and long skirt. “We must not allow them to have a gay demonstration here.”

In a telephone interview, Mr. Vacharadze of Identoba said that priests from the Georgian Orthodox Church had led the charge that broke through a heavy police corridor.

“The priests entered, the priests broke the fences and the police didn’t stop them, because the priests are above the law in Georgia,” he said.

Ms. Bolkvadze, the lawyer with Identoba, speaking by telephone from a safe house in the city, said that despite promises from the police that there would be “unprecedented” protection for the rally, the riot police were unprepared.

“They didn’t have helmets,” she said. “They didn’t have the right equipment.”

Terrific post Prospero. And I agree with you 100%.

Whether it will put an end to these frankly boring and largely circular threads on HA is doubtful; in the wider and more significant contexts mentioned above, well, as with Europe, the Tories are demonstrating once again just how incredibly out of touch they are with social trends. In 20 years people will wonder just how same sex marriage was ever a contentious issue.

As for Eastern Europe generally, I worry. Not just about religious-led homophobia, but also the racism, anti-semitism and neo-fascism. It's a frightening time.

[Prospero]

Yep - it is part of a bigger picture. All to do with the rise of nationalism and the resurgence of the church. Anti-semitism never fully vanished under Soviet rule, but it is really a growing issue again in Russia. Many welcomed the new religious freedoms that came with the collapse of the Soviet Union without realising that the terrific upsurge in the orthodox church would also bring with it a deeply conservative backlash.

[tsadriana]

Why the chruch are allowed to take decision and get involved in politics?chruch its a chiurch and shity priests belong to church ...

[Prospero]

That is a very idealistic position Adriana. Religions of all sorts have always got involved in politics. Usually with very negative results.

[tsadriana]

That is a very idealistic position Adriana. Religions of all sorts have always got involved in politics. Usually with very negative results.
How about we getting involved in their dark side?
pedophiles
gays
rapisist
They dont talk about their sins but they judge our identity and treat us like we are deseas for this planet.

[Prospero]

Very true.... but not just Christians. Buddhists burning and murdered Muslims in Burma. Hindus killing Muslims. Muslims killing Christian and each other. and on and on and on.....

[tsadriana]

Very true.... but not just Christians. Buddhists burning and murdered Muslims in Burma. Hindus killing Muslims. Muslims killing Christian and each other. and on and on and on.....
Christians ,Muslims all religions they all loves tgirls and gays.....the priest should do their shitty prayers in the chruch and forget about politics.MOST DANGEROUS PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE THE PRIESTS AND CHURCH BECAUSE OF THEM THIS THING CALLED HOMOPHOBIA.

[tsadriana]

the hypocrits try to teach us how to not be a hypocrite.imao:o

[Cecil Rhodes]

If you're not feeding me, funding me, or fucking me, your opinion ABOUT me means jack shit to me. That's in reply to the "Am-I-Gay" and "Top-versus-Bottom" threads.

In that article, I kept thinking this was in the STATE of Georgia...where I could see something like this happening.

F.U. Willie . You have nerve disparaging Georgia when you are from Los Angeles in the STATE of California .

[Prospero]

Cecil - he was joking. Instead of starting a flame row about this or that state, why not talk about the substance of my post.

[Cecil Rhodes]

Why the chruch are allowed to take decision and get involved in politics?chruch its a chiurch and shity priests belong to church ...

Well said, well written

[Cecil Rhodes]

Cecil - he was joking. Instead of starting a flame row about this or that state, why not talk about the substance of my post.

Oh, sorry about that . My bad . On a similar note I guess I need make sure the next time I use the N. word I need to put a disclaimer on it stating I am using it in jest .

[Prospero]

whatever Cecil...

[danthepoetman]

I agree with you, Adriana. Religious representatives are the biggest threats almost everywhere, and these right wing conservatives, awaken in the West 30 years ago by Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher’s surroundings. They've been growing stronger and stronger ever since then, and I would think we all have a responsibility in this. We should all have reacted with much more energy. We should all have gotten involved in politics and fought these people to oblivion. But because of political conservatism, in all probability, by circular effect, we live in a more and more individualistic culture which I remember, contrasted enormously to open minded people in the 80's, after the two preceding decades. Still to this day, how come don't we just laugh to death those narrow minded religious zealots who poison social lives in the West? I just can't understand how we don't constantly tell people who give in to such nonsense how immensely stupid they are! I'm enraged, sometimes, when I stop to think about this. Ganging up and beating people because of whom they love! We are often too respectful for religions in general; NO RELIGIOUS CONSTRUCT IS EVER INNOCENT! NONE! It takes roots in too much of life and culture to ever be!
Having intervened against my best judgement in one of these threads yesterday or the day before, I feel quite embarrassed today reading this article, Prospero. I want to apologize to anyone I might have offended by my posts. It wasn't my intention. I want to affirm and reaffirm that to me, EVERY ONE HERE SHOULD BE RESPECTED. The fact is that in "the world", which these zealots of all origins don't seem to frequent, there is no such thing anymore as a mainstream sexual behaviour. Everybody has particularities in his/her sexuality. To maintain the opposite is to deny reality.
You know, Prospero, that something like that would happen in Georgia is shocking, but is it so surprising? The former Soviet Union is in turmoil. It is still searching itself. Russia is falling back rapidly into hard line type of dictatorship, after a terribly bad, improvised, manipulated entry into "capitalism" in the 90’s. What I'm much more surprised of, and much more shocked at, is that in our countries, such backlashes would occur. France just voted yesterday the right of gays to marry after terrible confrontations, revealing that the usually progressist France also has a large layer of narrow minded conservatives in its population -yes, I know, there's the Front National too, but it's another story, not any more beautiful. What you're talking about in the UK is also quite disturbing. And here in Canada, we're stuck with a Conservative government mainly elected by the West of the country, that still refuses to recognize gay marriages (I think only Ontario and Quebec recognize it, out of the 10 provinces) and even put in question the right to abortion from time to time. And of course, I'm not even talking about the US, where a large part of this conservatism seems to come from by cultural influence -I'd even suspect some kind of conspiracy, but the convergence of interest in upper economical classes probably explains the manipulation thoroughly. We fought so hard to get where we are today. It's desperating to see all of this being challenged and put in question.

[Prospero]

Thanks Dan. I was not really surprised that it happened in Georgia (ex USSR) but the extent to which the state colluded with the church is the thing i find depressing. Of course i could have mentioned france, i didn't know about the Canadian situation and the Muslim world has a complicated relation to issues of homosexuality and transgender issues - as has been widely discussed here before.

I was sort of hopin tht in mentioning this latest terrible event it might get some of the silly people here who pile bile on others for their sexual preferences when the real enemy stands at the gates - and would attack tops, bottoms, gay men, gay women and the transgendered with equal viciousness.

Should i guess have posted this in he politics thread.

[nysprod]

G's don't like T's for the most part...there isn't a good connection between the 2 communities although they may come together somewhat in times of crisis.

A lot of gays, especially the older ones, are disgusted by tg's and as far as tg's go, as people they generally are on the insecure side and therefore require a lot of admiration and reassurance, which they aren't likely to get from gay men. So unless the guy is doing their hair or something, they really have no use for them.

Of course there are exceptions, especially amongst the younger crowd.

[Prospero]

True NYsprod... but the need for solidarity is the point I was making i think

[danthepoetman]

I was sort of hopin tht in mentioning this latest terrible event it might get some of the silly people here who pile bile on others for their sexual preferences when the real enemy stands at the gates - and would attack tops, bottoms, gay men, gay women and the transgendered with equal viciousness.
Should i guess have posted this in he politics thread.
No, I think it's right where it belongs. It will be seen by the people who should, in General Discussion. I'm affraid it would get lost, in the political section. Great, one, Prospero!

[nysprod]

True NYsprod... but the need for solidarity is the point I was making i think

Definitely there is a need, but look what you have here.

As admirers, there is no support from us to the gay community above that we're pro rights, etc.

For example, there was a bias killing of a gay man this weekend right here in Greenwich Village NYC, one of the gay capitals of the world.

I posted a thread on it and it basically disappeared in 5 seconds, with other people posting their "who has the biggest dick" chaser threads right on top of it without so much as a comment. Guys here are so paranoid about being perceived as gay and the girls have no interest.

And I think the main reason what happened in Georgia is garnering some attention is the fact that priests were involved...absent that, it would have been ignored here too.

[danthepoetman]

I'll try to find it and bump it up, Nysprod.

[SheWantsTheD]

I have friends who don't care how hot a ts is. All they will say is she is a dude, her genes have not changed, she will always be a man in their eyes and anyone who is interested in such people will always be gay in their eyes.

[nysprod]

I'll try to find it and bump it up, Nysprod.

Saw that...thanks Dan, and Prospero too.

[danthepoetman]

I have friends who don't care how hot a ts is. All they will say is she is a dude, her genes have not changed, she will always be a man in their eyes and anyone who is interested in such people will always be gay in their eyes.
Which is indeed to show how much of a matter of perception this is. Twomen are full of feminine hormones. I'm sure they can't from birth in most cases, because of some specific biology which explains their condition, but even if they wanted to think like men, with the hormones, they couldn't. We don't think with our brain, which is only the upper part of our nervous system and its center, we somewhat think with all of our body. Talking as if a transsexual woman was a man is totally absurd, especially when the transition has taken its course.
For my part, I can't get over the fact that we live in a world of such unbelievable diversity! Almost anything goes, today! Many men for instance, have their g-girlfriend strap them on, or finger their prostate. Should we call these men gay, whom have never been with other men? These labels do not apply in this world anymore.
Moreover, if (or when, should I say) you come out of the still influential christian paradygm and start studying animals and human history, you can easily find that human beings are naturally bi-sexual or, if you will, that none of these denominations have any reality outside the repressive function they've been meant to have.

[nysprod]

I have friends who don't care how hot a ts is. All they will say is she is a dude, her genes have not changed, she will always be a man in their eyes and anyone who is interested in such people will always be gay in their eyes.

All men who are sexually active want to be with transsexuals...it's just that some can't get over themselves.

[bluesoul]

All men who are sexually active want to be with transsexuals...it's just that some can't get over themselves.

really? is this an actual fact?

[Prospero]

I think that is probably NOT the case....

[MacShreach]

G's don't like T's for the most part...there isn't a good connection between the 2 communities although they may come together somewhat in times of crisis.

A lot of gays, especially the older ones, are disgusted by tg's and as far as tg's go, as people they generally are on the insecure side and therefore require a lot of admiration and reassurance, which they aren't likely to get from gay men. So unless the guy is doing their hair or something, they really have no use for them.

Of course there are exceptions, especially amongst the younger crowd.

Wow where do you begin? There is no 'transgender community', there are several completely discrete groups and they don't always play nice with each other. A certain type of transwoman, whom I would identify as 'middle-aged autogynephiles' (although they often detest that term) routinely try to commandeer the transsexual political agenda for themselves, while essentially colonising the identities of young transwomen who fit the Blanchard HSTS profile.

TS women, at least many of them, frequently disrespect men for saying they are attracted to TS women, and while agreed that some men want things many TS women don't care for, still and all. We are on your side girls, or ought to be. OTOH transattracted men often behave like spoiled brats whose lolly has been taken if a girl has SRS. And it's not just SRS; any time a girl speaks up for herself she gets dumped on. You only have to look on this page to see a thread where a well-known, very young model has actually been accused of lying about her age and sexual preference because she has stated that she will not 'top' men; and this is mild compared with the vilification that Dani Foxxx had to put up with, which is all right there in the archives, lest ye doubt me, and which continues, years after the event. You can see where the mistrust comes from, or at least I can.

And ummm...the guys. How many are going to go out on the streets and publicly support transwomen? How many have transwomen even as FaceBook friends, where their everyday family and friends can see 'em? How many would actually walk down the street holding hands with a transwoman, or introduce her to the neighbours? I don't think it's all of us.

The gay male lobby is itself hardly better. Gay men have been conditioned in the west to be 'manly men' when in fact many of them hate this role and they are miffed right off that cute transgirls get the straight guys they themselves want. As far as many of them are concerned, TS women are just not playing fair, and, as I have observed here before, their activists might ask transwomen on board when they need to make up the numbers, but the rest of the time they close the doors on them (as actually happened to Allannah Starr a few years back.)

I completely support all efforts to support transwomen and build solidarity with them. But it's a long way from happening, baby.

[MacShreach]

All men who are sexually active want to be with transsexuals...it's just that some can't get over themselves.
If you mean that most men would fnd a beautiful young transwoman sexually attractive, I think you're right. Roberta Close is credited with first saying, 'If you don't think I'm sexy, you must be gay.' And I have frequently seen pics of well-known trans models used as advertising on 'straight' websites, most recently one of Sarina Valentina on a Facebook page celebrating blonde women. (That was only a month or so ago.) There's no doubting the sheer beauty of some transwomen.

[Prospero]

Ahhh... when you put it like that...lol.... absolutely.... but I also suspect that once the clothes came off there are genuinely a lot of men who would simply run a mile

[MacShreach]

Ahhh... when you put it like that...lol.... absolutely.... but I also suspect that once the clothes came off there are genuinely a lot of men who would simply run a mile
Unfortunately they might do a lot worse...

[nysprod]

I agree with eveything you've said Mac but going back to Prospero's point, there SHOULD be a lot more solidarity than now exists.

That there isn't I'm sure is due in no small part to what you outlined.

[dabaldone]

Which is indeed to show how much of a matter of perception this is. Twomen are full of feminine hormones. I'm sure they can't from birth in most cases, because of some specific biology which explains their condition, but even if they wanted to think like men, with the hormones, they couldn't. We don't think with our brain, which is only the upper part of our nervous system and its center, we somewhat think with all of our body. Talking as if a transsexual woman was a man is totally absurd, especially when the transition has taken its course.
For my part, I can't get over the fact that we live in a world of such unbelievable diversity! Almost anything goes, today! Many men for instance, have their g-girlfriend strap them on, or finger their prostate. Should we call these men gay, whom have never been with other men? These labels do not apply in this world anymore.
Moreover, if (or when, should I say) you come out of the still influential christian paradygm and start studying animals and human history, you can easily find that human beings are naturally bi-sexual or, if you will, that none of these denominations have any reality outside the repressive function they've been meant to have.

It's difficult to quote so many great posts from all of you in this thread. I've been a trans-attracted man for over two decades. Last year, I decided to stop talking about what should be done and started making a difference. On my Youtube channel, I discuss a number of issues that are posted on this forum. It's time the MEN start to take a stand. It's great that we admire these ladies for their beauty and list after them. What will YOU do to help change the paradigm?

[nysprod]

If you mean that most men would fnd a beautiful young transwoman sexually attractive, I think you're right. Roberta Close is credited with first saying, 'If you don't think I'm sexy, you must be gay.' And I have frequently seen pics of well-known trans models used as advertising on 'straight' websites, most recently one of Sarina Valentina on a Facebook page celebrating blonde women. (That was only a month or so ago.) There's no doubting the sheer beauty of some transwomen.

Not most...all sexually active men.



Ahhh... when you put it like that...lol.... absolutely.... but I also suspect that once the clothes came off there are genuinely a lot of men who would simply run a mile

Yes, the ones who can't get over themselves...and then they'll fap no end thinking about them.

[bluesoul]

I think that is probably NOT the case....

well, imo,this is exactly the kind of flamboyant mindset that leads to the very violence against gay and transgendered people your original post is trying to address because it makes the decision for the other party. here is another example:


Roberta Close is credited with first saying, 'If you don't think I'm sexy, you must be gay.'

the thing i don't get is why anyone who wants to be valued for being different, then in turns doesn't want people to be different in their opinion. you'd think she'd actually prefer people who didn't find her attractive because they'd be more honest with her, instead, she says they're gay

[danthepoetman]

It's difficult to quote so many great posts from all of you in this thread. I've been a trans-attracted man for over two decades. Last year, I decided to stop talking about what should be done and started making a difference. On my Youtube channel, I discuss a number of issues that are posted on this forum. It's time the MEN start to take a stand. It's great that we admire these ladies for their beauty and list after them. What will YOU do to help change the paradigm?
I'll confess to you that I'm not the activist type, Dabaldone... :) I guess what I'm saying on HA and around me is pretty much the extent of my work on the precise subject of t-women's acceptance in society.
What is your YouTube channel? Is it under the same nickname you have here?

[danthepoetman]

well, imo,this is exactly the kind of flamboyant mindset that leads to the very violence against gay and transgendered people your original post is trying to address because it makes the decision for the other party. here is another example:

the thing i don't get is why anyone who wants to be valued for being different, then in turns doesn't want people to be different in their opinion. you'd think she'd actually prefer people who didn't find her attractive because they'd be more honest with her, instead, she says they're gay
I’m not sure I understand your point, here, Bluesoul. If I do, I find it excessive. You have to make judgements, as a human being. You couldn’t possibly live without making some form of evaluation as to what people are and do. The problem is rather to condemn, or either to judge in order to denounce, not in itself to make judgements, which we all obviously have to do.
As to your second point, I think she was only asserting that men who didn’t desire her probably liked men rather than women. It’s not either necessarily offensive.
I will admit anytime that gay men are the victims of tremendous hatred and abominable pressure from society, and that what they have to go through is probably scarring most of them forever. In fact, I know it from having many friends who have suffered a lot from this. But we also have to put some definitions on our activities. We can’t live above matter. The problem is condemnation and hatred.
Then again, the word gay has such an elastic meaning nowadays that it definitely has become obsolete, in my opinion. If that’s precisely what you mean, I agree, Bluesoul. And if I don't, please, correct me.

[nysprod]

well, imo,this is exactly the kind of flamboyant mindset that leads to the very violence against gay and transgendered people your original post is trying to address because it makes the decision for the other party. here is another example:

This is so wrong...violence is caused by the self hatred one has due to repressed sexual urges.


the thing i don't get is why anyone who wants to be valued for being different, then in turns doesn't want people to be different in their opinion. you'd think she'd actually prefer people who didn't find her attractive because they'd be more honest with her, instead, she says they're gay

Clueless...not what was meant at all.

[bluesoul]

I’m not sure I understand your point, here, Bluesoul. If I do, I find it excessive.

my comment was in reply to this:


All men who are sexually active want to be with transsexuals...it's just that some can't get over themselves.

you find it excessive that i don't agree that all men who are sexually active want to be with transsexuals? also, i was questioning whether this is a fact or supposition.

also, i disagree with nysprod that "violence is caused by the self hatred one has due to repressed sexual urges." most of the time it's due to something offensive the other person sees in the other party's behavior (or comments).

you're applying to many stereotypes of your hypothesis because that kind of logic seems to be reverse psychology i.e. if one attacks a homosexual persons on unfounded cause, then that individual is repressing gay tendencies

here is a question then to you: hitler killed gay people before starting world war 2. was he secretly gay as well?

[danthepoetman]

Although I now see what you meant, Bluesoul –and thank you for the precision-, I still feel you’re a bit extreme in your call. I will agree with you to disagree with Nysprod on this precise sentence, but to say, as you are that it’s “exactly the kind of flamboyant mindset that leads to the very violence against gay and transgendered people (…) because it makes the decision for the other party” is again excessive. And to add the quote of Roberta Close to this as an example? Once again, we all have to make judgements in the general sense of the word. It’s the hostility we attach to them that is wrong.
Anyways, I don’t want to get into a monastic type of debate with you, Bluesoul, because I’m sure we basically agree on the subject. Condemnations and violence against people because of their sexual practices is wrong, disgusting and incredibly hurtful in every possible way. I think that was the object of the OP and in my opinion, we all agree on this now, don’t we?

[BellaBellucci]

Let's get real in recognising the true dangers both gay and the transgendered face and stop this crass infighting.

In the wider world such distinctions between gay and transgender are often not made.

The latter statement is why the former statement is true. Are we not allowed to make distinctions among ourselves? It's funny that trans people always take shit from gay men, but the reverse is almost NEVER true, and then they wonder why we get upset when they say things like, 'the only difference between a gay man and a transsexual is $35,000.'

We never belittle them like that. As transsexuals, our issue isn't with gay men. It's with gay men in denial who use us as a warm-up act to coming out, or worse, as a downlow substitute for men. Although, I won't lie: I can't stand gay culture, even if I'm tolerant of gay people. It's based on catty competition. The same goes for parts of trans culture. I'm all set with that, thanks.

~BB~

[bluesoul]

you left out the part where i stated that was strictly my opinion:


well, imo,this is exactly the kind of flamboyant mindset that leads to the very violence against gay and transgendered people your original post is trying to address because it makes the decision for the other party.

about your last point. is there any here who is attacking people because of their sexual practice? because if not, i think the message should be targeted to people who aren't on this forum

[ashymon]

I have a hard time labeling myself, possibly because I have a hard time accepting the negativity that comes with labels. I love TS but my g/f thinks its bizzare. At the same time she talks about wanting to have a guy fuck me in the ass while she sucks my cock and gets me off. I have had sex with TS (top and bottom) and loved it. I have never had sex with a man. I dont know if I would fuck a man or not but I know I would never kiss a man. I kiss TS all the time, lol when they will let me. I think of myself as a normal, straight male. I guess all that matters is how we see ourselves and what we are comfortable with as individuals.

[MacShreach]

The latter statement is why the former statement is true. Are we not allowed to make distinctions among ourselves? It's funny that trans people always take shit from gay men, but the reverse is almost NEVER true, and then they wonder why we get upset when they say things like, 'the only difference between a gay man and a transsexual is $35,000.'

We never belittle them like that. As transsexuals, our issue isn't with gay men. It's with gay men in denial who use us as a warm-up act to coming out, or worse, as a downlow substitute for men. Although, I won't lie: I can't stand gay culture, even if I'm tolerant of gay people. It's based on catty competition. The same goes for parts of trans culture. I'm all set with that, thanks.

~BB~

This. It's 100% on the money. Well said Bella.

[dabaldone]

I'll confess to you that I'm not the activist type, Dabaldone... :) I guess what I'm saying on HA and around me is pretty much the extent of my work on the precise subject of t-women's acceptance in society.
What is your YouTube channel? Is it under the same nickname you have here?
Just type in "Ask a trans-attracted man"

[MacShreach]

Just type in "Ask a trans-attracted man"
Been there, excellent work, linked to the vids from my blog

Worth a bump too

[danthepoetman]

Ditto. And what's your blog, MacShreach?

[amberskyi]

my comment was in reply to this:



you find it excessive that i don't agree that all men who are sexually active want to be with transsexuals? also, i was questioning whether this is a fact or supposition.

also, i disagree with nysprod that "violence is caused by the self hatred one has due to repressed sexual urges." most of the time it's due to something offensive the other person sees in the other party's behavior (or comments).

you're applying to many stereotypes of your hypothesis because that kind of logic seems to be reverse psychology i.e. if one attacks a homosexual persons on unfounded cause, then that individual is repressing gay tendencies

here is a question then to you: hitler killed gay people before starting world war 2. was he secretly gay as well?

Hitler killed jews yet his grandmother was Jewish.you just made his point dude lol

[danthepoetman]

He's been also said to be incapable of sexual relations, because of some physical problem of undisclosed nature. The relatively mysterious death of a niece, whom he was romantically (as much as you can imagine this monstruous asshole having anything romantic) pursuing, was thought to have been related to that; he might have killed her after some failled attempt at sex if not rape. There's many such stories about Hitler. These stories about his sexuality seem particulaly credible, considering his very poor love life (once again, as much as you can possibly imagine such a disgusting pig being able of any kind of "love" -which I personally can't).

[MacShreach]

Ditto. And what's your blog, MacShreach?
my blog is at http://macshreach.wordpress.com/
(http://macshreach.wordpress.com/)

[amberskyi]

Wow where do you begin? There is no 'transgender community', there are several completely discrete groups and they don't always play nice with each other. A certain type of transwoman, whom I would identify as 'middle-aged autogynephiles' (although they often detest that term) routinely try to commandeer the transsexual political agenda for themselves, while essentially colonising the identities of young transwomen who fit the Blanchard HSTS profile.

TS women, at least many of them, frequently disrespect men for saying they are attracted to TS women, and while agreed that some men want things many TS women don't care for, still and all. We are on your side girls, or ought to be. OTOH transattracted men often behave like spoiled brats whose lolly has been taken if a girl has SRS. And it's not just SRS; any time a girl speaks up for herself she gets dumped on. You only have to look on this page to see a thread where a well-known, very young model has actually been accused of lying about her age and sexual preference because she has stated that she will not 'top' men; and this is mild compared with the vilification that Dani Foxxx had to put up with, which is all right there in the archives, lest ye doubt me, and which continues, years after the event. You can see where the mistrust comes from, or at least I can.

And ummm...the guys. How many are going to go out on the streets and publicly support transwomen? How many have transwomen even as FaceBook friends, where their everyday family and friends can see 'em? How many would actually walk down the street holding hands with a transwoman, or introduce her to the neighbours? I don't think it's all of us.

The gay male lobby is itself hardly better. Gay men have been conditioned in the west to be 'manly men' when in fact many of them hate this role and they are miffed right off that cute transgirls get the straight guys they themselves want. As far as many of them are concerned, TS women are just not playing fair, and, as I have observed here before, their activists might ask transwomen on board when they need to make up the numbers, but the rest of the time they close the doors on them (as actually happened to Allannah Starr a few years back.)

I completely support all efforts to support transwomen and build solidarity with them. But it's a long way from happening, baby.


OMG! this guy has completely hit the nail on the head yet no one has commented and a few few had the audacity to give it a thumbs down.
im so fucking tired of the guys on here forever saying how we girls should be more appreciative to admirers as they are the men that a truly attracted to and support us.
im sorry hun but paying for escort services and masturbating to us in secret isnt doing anything other than supporting our rent lol.dont get me wrong im glad i have clients and fans as thats how i make a living but dont ever get confused and think your more than that.in my eyes your not an ally or even a friend.how could you be? lmaoo
to the guys tho that are genuinely for us and apart of our lives thank you.there are too few of yall out there but you do make a difference.it may not be on a global scale or anything but the very simple act of dating a girl, treating her normal and over coming your insecurities really does have an impact.
ive had three boyfriends and only one has ever had the balls to introduce me to his family.while it may not seem like much it really helped instill a sense of confidence, worth and hope for a future that isnt limited to loneliness or sucking dick for money

[MacShreach]

It's funny, the blog address (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/) is in my sig and I can see it on mobile devices but not here. Anyway I have also begun serializing The Warm Pink Jelly Express Train (http://rarerosepress.com), on the blog (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/), so patient members will eventually get the whole thing for free....

[MacShreach]

OMG! this guy has completely hit the nail on the head yet no one has commented and a few few had the audacity to give it a thumbs down.
im so fucking tired of the guys on here forever saying how we girls should be more appreciative to admirers as they are the men that a truly attracted to and support us.
im sorry hun but paying for escort services and masturbating to us in secret isnt doing anything other than supporting our rent lol.dont get me wrong im glad i have clients and fans as thats how i make a living but dont ever get confused and think your more than that.in my eyes your not an ally or even a friend.how could you be? lmaoo
to the guys tho that are genuinely for us and apart of our lives thank you.there are too few of yall out there but you do make a difference.it may not be on a global scale or anything but the very simple act of dating a girl, treating her normal and over coming your insecurities really does have an impact.
ive had three boyfriends and only one has ever had the balls to introduce me to his family.while it may not seem like much it really helped instill a sense of confidence, worth and hope for a future that isnt limited to loneliness or sucking dick for money

Thanks Amber, I appreciate your kind words. It's not the easiest thing for a man to open up that he is transattracted, but at the end of the day, no matter what the difficulties are for us, the girls have that and a mountain more to climb.

[Corran]

If I knew a way to support you ladies more in gaining more acceptance I totally would. As it is, I have a membership to a couple of websites and have sent a couple of the lovely women gifts, like from their wishlists so I guess I fall into the paying rent category. Also, while my friends and family don't know I would date a trans woman they do know I'm friends with one. Why? because she's friends with me on facebook, where they all can see and they've asked me about her. My reply was, and is true, we've spoken and are into the same kind of stuff. You can be friends without fucking. I do what I can from my little part of the country. Like I said if I could do more, I would.


And Amber, I'd totally take you home to meet the 'rents lol.

[amberskyi]

If I knew a way to support you ladies more in gaining more acceptance I totally would. As it is, I have a membership to a couple of websites and have sent a couple of the lovely women gifts, like from their wishlists so I guess I fall into the paying rent category. Also, while my friends and family don't know I would date a trans woman they do know I'm friends with one. Why? because she's friends with me on facebook, where they all can see and they've asked me about her. My reply was, and is true, we've spoken and are into the same kind of stuff. You can be friends without fucking. I do what I can from my little part of the country. Like I said if I could do more, I would.


And Amber, I'd totally take you home to meet the 'rents lol.

just being a genuine friend to a ts girl does allot...little things like standing up for her in public if shes getting bullied or invites to the picnics.
my friends would never think theyre trans advocates because they're simply to busy treating me like a normal person but to me that very act makes them one

[danthepoetman]

It's funny, the blog address (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/) is in my sig and I can see it on mobile devices but not here. Anyway I have also begun serializing The Warm Pink Jelly Express Train (http://rarerosepress.com), on the blog (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/), so patient members will eventually get the whole thing for free....
LOL! It's so much there that you don't even see it. Your blog is fabulous, MacShreach!

[MacShreach]

LOL! It's so much there that you don't even see it. Your blog is fabulous, MacShreach!
Thank you very much, Dan, I really appreciate the support. I'm trying to regularise an update schedule so at least two new posts go up a week, and I have other blogs which anyone can have the addy for with a pm...or it's in Mac's blog, (http://macshreach.wordpress.com/) if you want to look....

[SheWantsTheD]

The reason guys hesitate to introduce a tgirl to friends and family is simple. If they reject him and his relationship doesn't work out then he has nobody.
Guys tend to have the same friends for years unlike girls who bicker and change friends constantly.
I'm at the point now where I don't care who knows about my tgirlfriend or what they think. If I lose her I will stay in this scene anyway and do my best to find another one. Only thing I hope is that nobody hates me so bad for being into ts that they try to attack me in some way.

[amberskyi]

In my situation his family was chill with it and still loves him.
Anyway that's kind of my point, if one isn't willing to put themselves out and stand by their ts friend/lover than one truly isn't an advocate or an ally