Oscar Pistorius

[Lovecox]

Whatever the case I think his defense is going to cost him an arm and a blade.

[youngblood61]

What a fall from grace. Such a feel good story at the Olympics now this.:(

[Ben]

What a fall from grace. Such a feel good story at the Olympics now this.:(

Awful story, just awful....

[tsmounting]

She probably wound him up. there is only so much anyone can take. Fucking sad though, he has come so far since his humble beginnings and now this...:sad:

[robertlouis]

Nobody knows. He has to come to trial first. Stop speculating.

Jeezus, why does this happen on HA every time there's a celebrity or other high-profile murder? Let due process take its course for fuck's sake.

[Jericho]

She probably wound him up.

Yah...She shouldn't have got him socks for Christmas! :rolleyes:

[robertlouis]

Yah...She shouldn't have got him socks for Christmas! :rolleyes:

....and The Blade Trilogy on DVD was just taking the piss....

[Females+Shemales]

Whether he intended to kill her or not is irrevelant. The fact of the matter is his hot girlfriend is now dead. He's a piece of shit.

[Acron]

Even if he didnt know who it was, you've gotta be certain before you can do something like fire a gun at someone. Hope he goes down for a long time.

[Prospero]

Whether he intended to kill her or not is irrevelant. The fact of the matter is his hot girlfriend is now dead. He's a piece of shit.

What a ludicrous judgement. If it was an accident - a distinct possibility - then how does this make him "a piece of shit." It makes him a man who unwittingly killed the woman he loved. If this proves to be the case, then I'd call him a tragic victim.

As Robert Louis said earlier, let's stop all this crass speculation. It will come to trial.

[Bunzee]

they found a bloody bat now ... wasn't an accident

he flew off the handle probbly cuz of steroids

[martin48]

....and The Blade Trilogy on DVD was just taking the piss....

John Cleese's tweet was best - "Oscar’s defence will be that he was absolutely legless at the time.”

[martin48]

The real shock news was "White man arrested for murder in South Africa"

[Chaos]

Whether he intended to kill her or not is irrevelant. The fact of the matter is his hot girlfriend is now dead. He's a piece of shit.


Even if he didnt know who it was, you've gotta be certain before you can do something like fire a gun at someone. Hope he goes down for a long time.

Wow....just wow...
Accidents make you a piece of shit and not knowing who's in your house means you can't shoot them....Just at face value you're both morons.

[Queens Guy]

Wow....just wow...
Accidents make you a piece of shit and not knowing who's in your house means you can't shoot them....Just at face value you're both morons.

Reports are that she was struck with a cricket bat. And 4 or 5 shots were fired through the closed bathroom door.

He thinks she is an intruder and hits her with the cricket bat, ok, that I can see being an accident. But then not realizing it was her and shooting several times through a door? Even if it was an intruder, they were on the other side of a closed door. Didn't just call 911 (or 999) at that point.?

Doesn't sound like a mistake.

[Chaos]

I was not talking about him. I was talking about the statements they made.

You have to be certain of who the person YOU DO NOT KNOW is before you shoot them for being in your house? How many people that get robbed go and ASK who the criminal is? Really? So someone you know breaking into your house is somehow better than a stranger?

And saying that even if it was an accident he's a piece of shit?
So if I was walking down the street and got hit by a car that went out of control I'M a piece of shit?

No, they're both retarded.

[Lovecox]

I misspelled Pistorius. I guess I had Jaco Pastorius on my mind.

[fred41]

I misspelled Pistorius. I guess I had Jaco Pastorius on my mind.

I was going to bring that up, but I didn't want to seem petty...:)

[Prospero]

Jaco Patorious - wonderful bassman - has been dead a long while i recall

[Acron]

Wow....just wow...
Accidents make you a piece of shit and not knowing who's in your house means you can't shoot them....Just at face value you're both morons.

Fair enough if his wife was sleeping beside him and he heard an intruder. But because she wasnt then why would he not assume it was not her that startled him? I just dont see how anyone could fire a gun without being certain that the person your shooting isnt your wife.

And what you said about running someone over is completley different.

[Chaos]

And what you said about running someone over is completley different.

An accident is an accident. The nature of the accident doesn't make it irrelevant.

And for the last time I'm not talking about what he did I am talking about the statements made, such as saying even if it was an accident he's still a piece of shit,and that you need to find out who the intruder is if you're going to shoot them.

Sorry but if you step into my house and I don't know you or invite you, you get fucked up...Sorry about your luck. If my dogs don't tear you apart,then the guns in my house will.

[Stavros]

As with the other murders that we have discussed on HA, the pre-trial allegations come thick and fast-vide:
-Oscar thought he was being burgled and shot on instinct
-His gf wanted to surprise him and crept into the house but it all went badly wrong
-Oscar has a history of beating her
-There were steroids in the house
-She was found in her nightgown so she was already in the house
-the blood-stained cricket bat was used to whack her, so she ran into the bathroom
-the blood-stained cricket bat was her defence against him
-he shot her in a rage then carried her downstairs in an attempt to revive her
-she ran into the bathroom to escape him after he shot her, then he shot her through the door
-he killed her in the bedroom, then dragged her into the bathroom and shot through the door to make it look like it was an instinctive response to a burglary...

and so on, and so on.

We cannot judge the events about which we have no disputed facts -motive, location, Modus Operandi, etc. It is a tragic case whichever way you look at it; his career is in ruins, her life is over, South Africa's reputation as a violent country remains intact.

[Winkle]

He doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[TSCURIOUS]

Did he think he could do this and run away???

[Queens Guy]

An accident is an accident. The nature of the accident doesn't make it irrelevant.

And for the last time I'm not talking about what he did I am talking about the statements made, such as saying even if it was an accident he's still a piece of shit,and that you need to find out who the intruder is if you're going to shoot them.

Sorry but if you step into my house and I don't know you or invite you, you get fucked up...Sorry about your luck. If my dogs don't tear you apart,then the guns in my house will.

Really?

So, as a rule you would shoot first, and ask questions later?

You don't feel the need to at least give the person a chance to surrender to you, and wait for the police to arrive?

[robertlouis]

As with the other murders that we have discussed on HA, the pre-trial allegations come thick and fast-vide:
-Oscar thought he was being burgled and shot on instinct
-His gf wanted to surprise him and crept into the house but it all went badly wrong
-Oscar has a history of beating her
-There were steroids in the house
-She was found in her nightgown so she was already in the house
-the blood-stained cricket bat was used to whack her, so she ran into the bathroom
-the blood-stained cricket bat was her defence against him
-he shot her in a rage then carried her downstairs in an attempt to revive her
-she ran into the bathroom to escape him after he shot her, then he shot her through the door
-he killed her in the bedroom, then dragged her into the bathroom and shot through the door to make it look like it was an instinctive response to a burglary...

and so on, and so on.

We cannot judge the events about which we have no disputed facts -motive, location, Modus Operandi, etc. It is a tragic case whichever way you look at it; his career is in ruins, her life is over, South Africa's reputation as a violent country remains intact.

Thanks Stavros. But going on past experience, the conspiracy theorists and scandal speculators on HA will carry on regardless.

[BBaggins06]

Sorry but if you step into my house and I don't know you or invite you, you get fucked up...Sorry about your luck. If my dogs don't tear you apart,then the guns in my house will.

Hmm, and here I thought we were trying to get guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people ....

[Chaos]

Not me. Sleeping peacefully.I don't even need one.My roommate has several. But if the dogs are going after you it's 99% guaranteed you're NOT welcome.
Personally, I have yet to encounter the need for one,so I've never owned one.
I've gone to shooting ranges with friends plenty of times in the past,and....eh..
Not a thing I'm into.Just no interest,either way..I figure if one of the three if not,two of them bit you...and my roommate,or his girlfriend...shoot you?
I'm not 100% sure it was justified...more like 200 or maybe 300 is more accurate? They're dumb by my standards for peers in certain areas,sure....but they are nowhere near stupid people,as far as I'm concerned. So,yup,sleeping peaceful...unless insomnia. damn..lol.

[Steve-Oh]

Bath Salts?

[Winkle]

So is he guilty?

[BreeTexas]

So is he guilty?

Don't know... I'm stumped.

[Winkle]

Don't know... I'm stumped.

You're stumped? the length looks ok to me:shrug

[Bribi]

We can't say guilty or not from out chair in from of a computer.
We can't accuse him but we can't be assertive that he didn't do it
Way more complicated than that.

Some things are clearly against him, like his past in beating his girlfriends from what I read

[robertlouis]

So is he guilty?

The trial is currently under way. Wait for the verdict.

[NRT]

apt tune?

[Prospero]

The trial ISN'T underway - just the bail hearing. All this speculation is pointless.

[LibertyHarkness]

my money is he is guilty

[timid1]

Yep! I'll let the court decide.... but i fancy he's guilty. IF you believe there were previous calls to police re domestic dispute /confrontation etc doesn't bode well. BUT I guess natural justice will take its course

[tsadriana]

Someting was there and i incline to belleve that he is guilty.

[Stavros]

To add to the problem the South African police are not revealed in any better a light than they have been in the Dewani murder case -the police claimed that neighbours heard screaming from Pastorius's home -but under cross examination the detective admitted the person who claimed to hear a scream lived 900 yards (?) away -certainly too far out of earshot of any such noise for it to be admissable evidence. He is himself under investigation for alleged murder and has been taken off the Pastorius case. The SA police claimed that Dewani ordered a hit on his wife, that he is a closeted homosexual, that he wanted her money, and so on. I don't suppose we will ever know the truth of that case, but either way the reputation of the SA police is not something to be proud of.

[aprilian]

Wow....just wow...
Accidents make you a piece of shit and not knowing who's in your house means you can't shoot them....Just at face value you're both morons.

Bro you must live alone, for life...
If your first reaction to being woken up in the middle of the night in your darkened bedroom is to go shoot through the bathroom door without saying "Honey is that you?" then you aren't a very responsible gun owner.

Best case, if his story is 100% true, he is still responsible for the death of a 100% innocent person. In the US I think that would be 2nd degree murder.

[aprilian]

Of course he's guilty, there is no doubt at to who owned the gun and who pulled the trigger.
Only the motivations are at question. Was it a horrible accident or premeditated murder. Or something between the extremes.

[dannymac8]

He is definitely guilty, there had been reports of loud arguments from neighbours previous to the murder. Her overnight bag was in the bedroom he was in and it was valentines day. She was in the bathroom and he shot through the door, I don't understand how it could be an accident. He may have regretted it immediately, but all logic and reason point to him being guilty

[Stavros]

But Dannymac8 if you read today's accounts of the bail hearing, the neighbours the police claimed heard screaming and shouting were actually too far away to hear what goes on inside the house -it's a gated community of plush houses, not a tenement block. And given the scale of violent crime in SA, who is to say Oscar didn't genuinely think he was being burgled? The only weakness in his account as I understand it, is that if Reeve was in his bed, didn't he realise when he heard a sound in the bathroom that she wasn't in the bed? Until the full account is given in the trial, we won't know, but the neighbours story sounds weak to me.

[dannymac8]

Alright I haven't read anything on it today. I've just read that the lead detective on the case is now facing 7 charges of attempted murder, and so the case has been designated to a Lieutenant . This case is crazy. It is all speculation at this point, as everybody has already said, but I don't believe he is innocent. The fact that he also called his family and told them to come over, before he phoned an ambulance or the police, to me, is suspicious. I'm not saying I know what has happened, but I think it would be a miracle if it turned out he was innocent

[Odelay]

Alright I haven't read anything on it today. I've just read that the lead detective on the case is now facing 7 charges of attempted murder, and so the case has been designated to a Lieutenant . This case is crazy. It is all speculation at this point, as everybody has already said, but I don't believe he is innocent. The fact that he also called his family and told them to come over, before he phoned an ambulance or the police, to me, is suspicious. I'm not saying I know what has happened, but I think it would be a miracle if it turned out he was innocent
I don't mean to speak out of turn here but I think it behooves most of the people on this board to not rush to judgement based on what you know of the justice system in your own home country. I had the good fortune to live and work in Pretoria, South Africa for 6 months and worked side by side with members of the National Police service. The issues that police and citizens of every race face every day in South Africa are really beyond anything I've seen in the USA. It's a whole different ballgame.

I'd be curious to know if we have any South Africans in this forum that would posit an opinion.

[fred41]

Out of curiosity...how many people think he should do some jail time even if it wasn't intentional?...forget about how SA law reads right now...I mean from a personal point of view.
Regardless of how heavy the crime rate is, don't you think a person has a personal responsibility to at least make sure that the person he is staying with isn't perhaps in the room he's pumping four bullets into?...I mean really....really? Wouldn't your first instinct be to make sure that the woman in your bed is at least safe?
What does he tell her family..oops?
A tragic accident would be if the roof fell on her, or she died in a sudden fire,or if she got killed in a crossfire.
Even if the story went the way he said so far...it's still gross stupidity on his part.

[tsadriana]

Out of curiosity...how many people think he should do some jail time even if it wasn't intentional?...forget about how SA law reads right now...I mean from a personal point of view.
Regardless of how heavy the crime rate is, don't you think a person has a personal responsibility to at least make sure that the person he is staying with isn't perhaps in the room he's pumping four bullets into?...I mean really....really? Wouldn't your first instinct be to make sure that the woman in your bed is at least safe?
What does he tell her family..oops?
A tragic accident would be if the roof fell on her, or she died in a sudden fire,or if she got killed in a crossfire.
Even if the story went the way he said so far...it's still gross stupidity on his part.

your right jail he needs to do anyway...money cant bring her back ,if we stay to think 2 lives are fnished one dead and another one arrested just because he was an smart arse...sorry but i cant think anything good about this guy ..i have never heard of him ...but using a gun like that without makeng sure that maybe its his gf and not a robber...like we know was earlie in the morning imposible to be blind and not see that actualy was his fiance and not a bloody robber.

[Odelay]

Out of curiosity...how many people think he should do some jail time even if it wasn't intentional?...forget about how SA law reads right now...I mean from a personal point of view.
Regardless of how heavy the crime rate is, don't you think a person has a personal responsibility to at least make sure that the person he is staying with isn't perhaps in the room he's pumping four bullets into?...I mean really....really? Wouldn't your first instinct be to make sure that the woman in your bed is at least safe?
What does he tell her family..oops?
A tragic accident would be if the roof fell on her, or she died in a sudden fire,or if she got killed in a crossfire.
Even if the story went the way he said so far...it's still gross stupidity on his part.
Fred, if you make the assumption that he's innocent but stupid, isn't the pain of living out his life knowing he killed his lover, punishment enough? Why throw a jail term on top of that?

[dannymac8]

What have I said that insinuates i'm being disrespectful?

[fred41]

Fred, if you make the assumption that he's innocent but stupid, isn't the pain of living out his life knowing he killed his lover, punishment enough? Why throw a jail term on top of that?

Because you can't make the assumption that he has a conscience that would torture him like that.
Drunk drivers often feel bad too...but often they still do some jailtime.


Not to mention , if he really loved or cared about her well being that much...I think at the least he would have said...."Psssst,honey..you okay?"

[fred41]

...:)...BTW...interesting sequence of posts just a while ago:

[Dino Velvet]

Pistorius keeps being a smart-ass referring to the male prosecutor as "My lady" then scratches his head wondering why the fella is so aggressive in his questioning.

[Stavros]

No Dino, it is the convention in a South African court room when the presiding judge is a woman to refer to her as 'My lady' much as in an English court one might say, 'My lord' when referring to the presiding judge. The remarks are made to the judge not the barrister.

He is either a good actor or he is genuinely in distress, I actually find it hard to listen to. And what happened to the cricket bat?

[Dino Velvet]

No Dino, it is the convention in a South African court room when the presiding judge is a woman to refer to her as 'My lady' much as in an English court one might say, 'My lord' when referring to the presiding judge. The remarks are made to the judge not the barrister.

He is either a good actor or he is genuinely in distress, I actually find it hard to listen to. And what happened to the cricket bat?

I know. I read about it before making the post. Still sounds odd over Radio America. Judge Judy would think someone is being dismissive of her and she's the greatest judge in the land having a TV show to prove the point.

All the court shows on TV I wonder who the judge will be in the upcoming Uncoupling Court.

[Stavros]

Incidentally there is no jury in this trial, so My Lady is going to be making a momentous decision when the time comes. Has America been informed about the case against Shirin Dewani? Fascinating case.

[Dino Velvet]

Incidentally there is no jury in this trial, so My Lady is going to be making a momentous decision when the time comes. Has America been informed about the case against Shirin Dewani? Fascinating case.

I can't speak for America but I am not familiar.

I know this is something we take for granted in 2014 but Google Search sure makes life easier. I found this and read it. http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/shrien-dewani/3997/shrien-dewani-extradited-face-south-african-trial

Give me your take, Stavros.

[broncofan]

Because you can't make the assumption that he has a conscience that would torture him like that.
Drunk drivers often feel bad too...but often they still do some jailtime.


Not to mention , if he really loved or cared about her well being that much...I think at the least he would have said...."Psssst,honey..you okay?"
Even if it wasn't an intentional killing, in many jurisdictions in the U.S. we have negligent homicide statutes. I don't know if they do in South Africa.

But I've seen a statute that defines criminal negligence as grossly deviating from the standard of care a reasonable person would show. And gross negligence which was really recklessness in disguise as, "consciously disregarding a known risk".

I think an argument can be made that he had a criminally culpable mindset even if it was not intentional (intent being defined as having knowledge of the facts and purpose to kill despite that knowledge).

[broncofan]

Drunk drivers often feel bad too...but often they still do some jailtime.

Not to get too far afield, but I think they don't do enough time. People with five drunk driving charges can't get more than two years jail time for their sixth drunk driving charge in some states.

One difference is that in negligent homicide there's often language about ignoring an "unjustified" risk. The reason is that if you are taking a risk by drinking and driving there is no utility...whereas if you are negligent with a firearm, you might claim you have a lawful and useful purpose...even if the risk far exceeds the likelihood of benefit.

[Winkle]

Going by his latest testimony of what happened. He heard the bathroom window slide shut, he whispered to Reeva to call the police and got his gun. Reeva didn't respond. Then he shouts to Reeva call the police, she doesn't respond. He shouts at the so called burglar Reeva still doesn't respond. Then he shoots.

Why didn't he verify where she was when she failed to respond twice? let alone look to see where she was while he was getting his gun? surely instinctually her whereabouts would be priority. Why didn't she respond when he shouted at the bathroom door before he started shooting?

What he's saying so far doesn't add up, saga continues....

[fred41]

Even if it wasn't an intentional killing, in many jurisdictions in the U.S. we have negligent homicide statutes. I don't know if they do in South Africa.

But I've seen a statute that defines criminal negligence as grossly deviating from the standard of care a reasonable person would show. And gross negligence which was really recklessness in disguise as, "consciously disregarding a known risk".

I think an argument can be made that he had a criminally culpable mindset even if it was not intentional (intent being defined as having knowledge of the facts and purpose to kill despite that knowledge).

Yes I know.He may well be found guilty of a lesser charge, as shown by a random article I googled (that shows why he may get off):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/06/4-reasons-oscar-pistorius-might-be-found-not-guilty.html

"Third, the judge might go with the lesser charge: Obviously the prosecutors and family of Reeva Steenkamp want Judge Masipa to return a verdict of guilty to premeditated murder, but she may also consider the lesser offense of culpable homicide. The lesser charge is akin to America’s manslaughter charge and holds the defendant accountable for the wrongful killing but eliminates the premeditation and intent aspect of the killing. Essentially, its negligent homicide. If Judge Masipa is convinced of some but not all of the prosecution’s evidence we could very well see her return this reduced verdict. Sentencing wise that would mean instead of serving the mandatory life sentence attached to a premeditated murder conviction, Pistorius would face 15 years in prison but could get a non-custodial sentence. Sentencing for culpable homicide is completely up to the judge’s discretion, which is another benefit for Pistorius."

[fred41]

Based on his in-court behavior,if the judge finds him guilty of the top count, better get a bunch of these ready:

[broncofan]

Yes I know.He may well be found guilty of a lesser charge, as shown by a random article I googled (that shows why he may get off):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/06/4-reasons-oscar-pistorius-might-be-found-not-guilty.html

Without having followed this case, I would guess the availability of a lesser charge would give a Judge a good incentive to convict on the lesser charge as a sort of cop-out. It is very difficult to test his story for veracity, although I understand he is being grilled on cross. I think he is probably guilty of murder, but I obviously don't know. Trial can be good at bringing out evidence, and testing assumptions, but short of him breaking down on the stand or having admitted why he did what he did to someone else, his precise intent will always be in some doubt; reasonable doubt, I don't know.

[Stavros]

I can't speak for America but I am not familiar.

I know this is something we take for granted in 2014 but Google Search sure makes life easier. I found this and read it. http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/shrien-dewani/3997/shrien-dewani-extradited-face-south-african-trial

Give me your take, Stavros.

I think with these cases, you have to ask, why would someone who wants to get rid of their spouse do it in this way? We are asked to believe that Shrien Dewani, in a country he did not know, but which has a bad reputation for violence, would hire people he had never met before and whom he could not be sure were reliable, to kill his wife. It seems a risky thing to do and one with an uncertain outcome. There is an allegation he is gay and his wife found out, and though that might sound extreme an Asian man just yesterday was found guilty in Birmingham of murdering his wife because she found out he is gay. On the other hand, why would anyone visiting South Africa want to visit a township at night? Shrien says his wife wanted to see 'the real South Africa', and there is a vogue for 'slum tourism' in South Africa, but why at night? I can't be sure, but I think Shrien is being prosecuted in much the same way Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Sellecito have been prosecuted in Italy, because of the cultural aspect -the Italians involved decided there was a sex game in the Perugia apartment and everything was then made to fit in with this. The South Africans are embarrassed at the scale of crime in their country and don't want it to affect tourism, so when a tourist is involved, it must be his fault.

[gummi baer]

He fired four shots through a closed door. We'll guess that he didn't think the space on the other side was vacant. Could it have been a ten year old kid on the other side? Why not stop at three shots? two? one warning shot? Even if we buy that he didn't think it was his girlfriend, he certainly murdered somebody.

[Ben]

This murderer could be out in 10 months. Frightening.

Oscar Pistorius jailed for five years but ‘short’ sentence fiercely criticised
Outrage on social media as defence lawyers for disgraced Paralympian seek his release into house arrest after 10 months:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/backlash-over-short-sentence-oscar-pistorius-jailed-five-years

[gaysian71]

It's a shame that he might get out that early. The way I see it is..

A: He knew it was his girlfriend in the bathroom and he wanted her dead so he shot her.

Or

B: he is such a chicken shit of a man that he will shoot through a door without even bothering to make she it's not his girlfriend in there.

One would think he would have at least kicked the door in to see who was there before shooting. Opps, my bad. He really can't kick anything with no legs. Well, then he should have at least knocked on the door first.
And they call him Blade Runner. lol. More like Stumps and Springs Runner.

[Veal Cutlet]

Since when does an intruder stop and use the bathroom in a bedroom where the house owners are sleeping and even flush the toilet? He is a liar he killed her if a fit of rage because Reeva wanted to leave him and he was upset about it. He is a lying piece of shit murderer.

And BTW those blades have spring to them which made him run faster than normal. Some Olympians were against him using those blades, he was a nice story but a fairytale at best!