Fuck You AVN!

[GroobySteven]

On one hand they award prizes to the top models, DVD's and producers ... and on the other hand, they also award the top stolen content site.

It's been recognised that AVN is most probably owned by Manwin, who decimated the industry with their stolen content sites.

This Years Transsexual the Year Winner Vaniity.
.
.
.
and see her content for free, ripped from DVD's and websites at our Free Site of the Year Award.

Fuck you!

[supersharpshooter]

The address of this free site please...........:joke:

[GroobySteven]

The address of this free site please...........:joke:

It's not hard to find - I practically give you all the info :-)

[Nikka]

they awarded porn hub , is a fucking joke, FUCK YOU AVN

[MrsKellyPierce]

What they won?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Guess we know who owns AVN

[Dino Velvet]

Wouldn't Hollywood giving an award to some outfit in China that bootlegs DVDs pretty much be the same thing?

[MrsKellyPierce]

It was a fan vote, so obviously that's why they won.

Fan's like free shit...

[Dino Velvet]

It was a fan vote, so obviously that's why they won.

Fan's like free shit...

OK. I don't know much. Still agree it's bullshit.

[MrsKellyPierce]

OK. I don't know much. Still agree it's bullshit.
I am with you on that, but the fact they were nominated at all should be the outrage.

Fans obviously voted for the free site, because that's what most use to jerk off to..tube sites.

[GroobySteven]

Fans obviously voted for the free site, because that's what most use to jerk off to..tube sites.

The nominations were for Best Free Site - there were a number of sites in the list that were Manwin owned stolen content site.
When I was at the Hard Rock Hotel last week in Vegas for Internext (AVN ran), I saw them advertising the AVN show and all the sponsors they listed were Manwin owned stolen content sites.

[Dino Velvet]

but the fact they were nominated at all should be the outrage.

There 'ya go. Good point.

[GroobySteven]

If you follow me on twitter @groobysteven please retweet me or write your own to @avnawards #fuckavn

Steven Grooby ‏@GroobySteven (https://twitter.com/GroobySteven) FUCK YOU AVN. Awarding stolen content site Pornhub is an insult to all the performers and producers. FUCK YOU @avnawards (https://twitter.com/avnawards) #fuckavn (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23fuckavn&src=hash)

[TSPornFan]

It was a fan vote, so obviously that's why they won.

Fan's like free shit...

I pay for my porn! :)

[MrsKellyPierce]

The nominations were for Best Free Site - there were a number of sites in the list that were Manwin owned stolen content site.
When I was at the Hard Rock Hotel last week in Vegas for Internext (AVN ran), I saw them advertising the AVN show and all the sponsors they listed were Manwin owned stolen content sites.
They plan on taking everything over...they just bought Streamate I am told

[Nikka]

the end is near

[tvkim]

the end is near


The end is now...

Paysites are dead. All too easy to find everything for free now.

If paysites were making money... why would the so called top performers be web-camming for a paltry £2.00 a min on cam sites?

It was good while it lasted.....

[nysprod]

On one hand they award prizes to the top models, DVD's and producers ... and on the other hand, they also award the top stolen content site.Fuck you!

Just out of sheer curiosity because I really don't know anything about how the industry works:

Why would one company set up a whole bunch of free sites...how do they make money by doing that?

[BellaBellucci]

I'd like to help you in your fight, but last time I tried to take on 'the man,' I got blacklisted. I'm going through that again. :lol:

Kidding! I support the cause. :)

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

Just out of sheer curiosity because I really don't know anything about how the industry works:

Why would one company set up a whole bunch of free sites...how do they make money by doing that?

Good question and whether by design or luck, here's what happened. Just a little side comment, CEO of the company was arrested in Belgium last month on tax fraud, there are strong rumours that the Manwin has been involved in some sort of nefarious business and nobody knows where the supposed $100M that they've spent aquiring sites came from.

Manwin buys tube sites and propigates free content from all niches via user uploaded content (so within the law despite the content being stolen). Industry starts to suffer and some paysites are acquired by Manwin cheaper than they would have been a few years previously, over the years these include Brazzers, Twisty's, Reality Kings, Digital Playground and even the web arm of Playboy.
Manwin builds these websites and using partly traffic from their stolen content tube sites, converts traffic from them (they also disallow THEIR content to be shown on the tube sites). The end game clearly would be to continue to buy good sites or programs.

[GroobySteven]

The end is now...

Paysites are dead. All too easy to find everything for free now.


Zzzzz. I've heard this for the past few years yet we've just had an awesome year with good growth. Shitty paysites, poorly run businesses and lazy webmasters have had their day. Companies who continue to please their customers, to change with the times, to fight piracy of their content and to produce quality content can still flourish. Which is why Grooby is shooting more scenes a month than ever before.

[BellaBellucci]

I'd like to help you in your fight, but last time I tried to take on 'the man,' I got blacklisted. I'm going through that again. :lol:

Kidding! I support the cause. :)

~BB~

not going through that*

~BB~

[Dino Velvet]

Is this the guy? Fabian Thylmann (https://www.google.com/search?q=Fabian%20Thylmann&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs&um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=1084&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=4Hf8UNOjB4GDjAKajYEY)

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8411968.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/web-porn.jpg

[tsadriana]

Is this the guy? Fabian Thylmann (https://www.google.com/search?q=Fabian%20Thylmann&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs&um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=1084&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=4Hf8UNOjB4GDjAKajYEY)

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8411968.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/web-porn.jpg

Thats him.

[BellaBellucci]

Is this the guy? Fabian Thylmann (https://www.google.com/search?q=Fabian%20Thylmann&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs&um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=1084&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=4Hf8UNOjB4GDjAKajYEY)

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8411968.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/web-porn.jpg

Heeeeey, sexy mon... err... baby! Wanna go out some time? I love your cas... err... eyes.

I'm not a gold digger. Why? Got any? :whistle:

~BB~

[Dino Velvet]

Described as reclusive. Wonder if he avoids being seen standing behind windows.

http://imagens.canaltech.com.br/11184.21067-Fabian-Thylmann-YouPorn.jpg

Fabian Thylmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Thylmann)


Fabian Thylmann is the owner of some of the world’s most heavily used pornography websites, via his company Manwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manwin), which has its headquarters in Luxembourg and offices in Hamburg, London, Los Angeles, Nicosia and Montreal.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Thylmann#cite_note-1) Combined, his sites generate some 16 billion hits per month and consequently are believed to be among the most popular websites on the planet.
Little is known of the reclusive Thylmann, other than he was born in 1978, is German, lives in Belgium, is married with two children and is a computer programmer. His breakthrough came in the late 1990s when he developed software called NATS (Next-generation Affiliate Tracking Software), which linked up the vast number of internet pornography sites for the first time and enabled visitors to select sex films according to personal preference.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Thylmann#cite_note-2)
He has only ever given one press interview, to the German edition of the Financial Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Times) at a pornography trade fair in Las Vegas in 2011, which described him as 'The King of Porn'. At the time he welcomed the chance to "clear up rumours" and "dispel conspiracy theories" about his identity. "NATS was very easy to use and could do what the others couldn't. Our objective is actually rather banal, we want to create as many opportunities as possible for people to spend money." He has not spoken publicly since.
Germany's Focus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_%28German_magazine%29) magazine claimed that he has revolutionised the business of pornography consumption by allowing the free viewing of pornographic video clips, while being paid for advertising pay-for-view pornographic sites. His success has led to claims that he has crippled the traditional porn industry.
In December 2012, he was extradited from Belgium to Germany on suspicion of tax evasion on the estimated £60 million annual profits his company allegedly makes. Thylmann did not contest the extradition order.

[nysprod]

Good question and whether by design or luck, here's what happened. Just a little side comment, CEO of the company was arrested in Belgium last month on tax fraud, there are strong rumours that the Manwin has been involved in some sort of nefarious business and nobody knows where the supposed $100M that they've spent aquiring sites came from.

Manwin buys tube sites and propigates free content from all niches via user uploaded content (so within the law despite the content being stolen). Industry starts to suffer and some paysites are acquired by Manwin cheaper than they would have been a few years previously, over the years these include Brazzers, Twisty's, Reality Kings, Digital Playground and even the web arm of Playboy.
Manwin builds these websites and using partly traffic from their stolen content tube sites, converts traffic from them (they also disallow THEIR content to be shown on the tube sites). The end game clearly would be to continue to buy good sites or programs.

Quite a business plan, but I'm not sure what rational person would ever believe it could work prior to implementing it.

It's like me spending all kinds of money to set up stores that will give food away for free and when the "paystores" lose value due to having less paying customers, I buy them on the cheap. Then, while continuing to run stores that give food away, I'm depending on the people who are getting free food to then come to my "paystore" and spend their money on what they're already getting for free.

Then there's this bit of rubbish: "Germany's Focus magazine claimed that he has revolutionised the business of pornography consumption by allowing the free viewing of pornographic video clips, while being paid for advertising pay-for-view pornographic sites. His success has led to claims that he has crippled the traditional porn industry."

So let me get this straight...crippled paysites who are losing business due to the free sites actually PAY for advertising on the free sites, expecting their former customers will come back and pay them for content?

Something is missing here...no idea what, but something definitely is.

[BellaBellucci]

Quite a business plan, but I'm not sure what rational person would ever believe it could work prior to implementing it.

It's like me spending all kinds of money to set up stores that will give food away for free and when the "paystores" lose value due to having less paying customers, I buy them on the cheap. Then, while continuing to run stores that give food away, I'm depending on the people who are getting free food to then come to my "paystore" and spend their money on what they're already getting for free.

And this actually works?

Remember, not all of the stores have the same items. They're giving away content on which they can't make a profit to sell that which they can.

~BB~

[nysprod]

Remember, not all of the stores have the same items. They're giving away content on which they can't make a profit to sell that which they can.

~BB~

So what you're saying is that 100's of millions of dollars are being wagered on the guess of which gangbang scene will make money and which will not?

No, that's not the answer.

And the reason that no paysite ever thought about setting up their own freesite in order to drive traffic to their paysite is...what?

[LibertyHarkness]

the big tube sites generate millions of dollars in advertising per year ... they simply sell advertising not porn ... its all about advertising .

[GroobySteven]

So what you're saying is that 100's of millions of dollars are being wagered on the guess of which gangbang scene will make money and which will not?

No, that's not the answer.

Yeah you clearly don't get it.
It's a common business model in the "real" world. Devalue a business or a type of business either by under-cutting or giving away for next to nothing and when there is no competition, or you've bought it all, then up the prices and close down the free outlets.

BTW - it's highly unlikely that Fabian is the "owner" of Manwin - that would mean in about 6 yrs he managed to raise $100M from the banks when the banks weren't lending. There is also a strong rumour he's just been replaced.

[nysprod]

Yeah you clearly don't get it.
It's a common business model in the "real" world. Devalue a business or a type of business either by under-cutting or giving away for next to nothing and when there is no competition, or you've bought it all, then up the prices and close down the free outlets.

But the free outlets haven't been closed down...actually, there probably are more of them. Aside from that, governments typically don't allow such monopolies in the "real" world. Verizon can't buy AT&T.

Something's still missing.

[nysprod]

the big tube sites generate millions of dollars in advertising per year ... they simply sell advertising not porn ... its all about advertising .

No non-porn business advertises on free porn tube sites that I've ever seen...which have you?

[LibertyHarkness]

they generate millions of dollars in adult companies advertising .. come now use some logic here .. Webcam sites, novelty toys, adult dating sites, escort sites etc you will see vast numbers advertising ..

take live jasmin as a prime example of paid advertisement. they are everywhere haha, speculate to accumalate

Go contact some big tubes about sponsership rates for primarly adverts on the sites and see what the costs are that they quote you :) they have some mad advertising deals for people ..in ways they offer site/product placements ..

one of my escort clients owns a large adult dating company across europe/uk ..they spend a fortune on advertisement with some tube sites to get them the signups of members .. then market their own wares into them etc

[nysprod]

they generate millions of dollars in adult companies advertising .. come now use some logic here .. Webcam sites, novelty toys, adult dating sites, escort sites etc you will see vast numbers advertising ..

take live jasmin as a prime example of paid advertisement. they are everywhere haha, speculate to accumalate

Except for adult dating sites, including LJ, I've never seen those others...besides, we're not talking about millions in advertising but 100's of millions...

[BellaBellucci]

So what you're saying is that 100's of millions of dollars are being wagered on the guess of which gangbang scene will make money and which will not?

No, that's not the answer.

And the reason that no paysite ever thought about setting up their own freesite in order to drive traffic to their paysite is...what?

It's not about choosing which will make them money Vegas style. It's about giving away that which is owned by others as a loss-leader to profit from that which is owned by the tube site owner. As Steven said, there's also money in commissions and advertising revenues.

~BB~

[nysprod]

one of my escort clients owns a large adult dating company across europe/uk ..they spend a fortune on advertisement with some tube sites to get them the signups of members .. then market their own wares into them etc

So what's all that bit about free sites buying the paysites...what's that all about...if they're stealing content from paysite producers with little or no legal repercussion, why buy the paysites?

[BellaBellucci]

So what's all that bit about free sites buying the paysites...what's that all about...if they're stealing content from paysite producers with little or no legal repercussion, why buy the paysites?

... to either rebuild them, cannibalize them, or just shut them down in order to create a monopoly. This is Business 101. Which part don't you get? :?

~BB~

[nysprod]

It's not about choosing which will make them money Vegas style. It's about giving away that which is owned by others as a loss-leader to profit from that which is owned by the tube site owner. As Steven said, there's also money in commissions and advertising revenues.

~BB~

Yes, but that goes back to an earlier question of mine...who's going to spend 100's of millions of dollars setting up free sites and buying paysites in the hope that people getting something for free are then going to turn around and buy it?

It's like, you've already damaged the paysites' business by giving content away for free...then, you're going to spend money buying that paysite and continue to damage it by giving content away for free on the theory that people getting free content are all of a sudden going to buy it?

No.

[BellaBellucci]

But the free outlets haven't been closed down...actually, there probably are more of them. Aside from that, governments typically don't allow such monopolies in the "real" world. Verizon can't buy AT&T.

Something's still missing.

Somehow I don't think there's a lot of congressional interest in breaking up porn monopolies. They have better things to not do.

~BB~

[LibertyHarkness]

traffic sells ...

[BellaBellucci]

Yes, but that goes back to an earlier question of mine...who's going to spend 100's of millions of dollars setting up free sites and buying paysites in the hope that people getting something for free are then going to turn around and buy it?

It's like, you've already damaged the paysites' business by giving content away for free...then, you're going to spend money buying that paysite and continue to damage it buy giving content away for free?

No.

Because content ages. If you can offer something newer, or better packaged, or easier to access content, and you own all of the free alternatives which only offer the dated content, you've given yourself your own competitive advantage. And again, you're not factoring in advertising revenues.


traffic sells ...

^ This.

~BB~

[nysprod]

Somehow I don't think there's a lot of congressional interest in breaking up porn monopolies. They have better things to not do.

~BB~

Ok, so what about Sean's theory: freesite buys paysite then shuts freesite.

That surely hasn't happened.

[BellaBellucci]

Ok, so what about Sean's theory: freesite buys paysite then shuts freesite.

That surely hasn't happened.

It all depends on how one wants to make their profit. One can also make money from this scheme because there are far fewer production costs (nearly none) to run a free site than a pay site, but sometimes a pay site is more profitable. Every deal is different.

~BB~

[nysprod]

Because content ages. If you can offer something newer, or better packaged, or easier to access to content and you own all of the free alternatives which only offer the dated content, you've given yourself your own competitive advantage. And again, you're not factoring in advertising revenues.

In order for that to be correct, you'd have to assume that the typical free tube site porn consumer has waded thru untold thousands of hours of "older" stuff available and is still so in need of more porn, he then has to buy. No.

And I don't believe the advertising revenues are so great as to justify the 100's of millions needed to get into this business and then actually run it.

[BellaBellucci]

In order for that to be correct, you'd have to assume that the typical porn consumer has waded thru the millions of hours of "older" stuff and is still so in need of more porn, he then has to buy.

And I don't believe the advertising revenues are so great as to justify the 100's of millions needed to get into this business and then actually run it.

You don't have to assume that. You can always remove content as well. When you have that kind of control, you can tweak your model to make it profit however you want it to.

Analytics can tell you a LOT about your traffic.

~BB~

[nysprod]

It all depends on how one wants to make their profit. One can also make money from this scheme because there are far fewer production costs (nearly none) to run a free site than a pay site, but sometimes a pay site is more profitable. Every deal is different.

~BB~

That doesn't answer an earlier question of mine, which is "the reason why no paysite has ever set up their own freesite in order to drive traffic to their paysite (and garner all the advertising revenue) is..."

[nysprod]

You don't have to assume that. You can always remove content as well. When you have that kind of control, you can tweak your model to make it profit however you want it to.

Analytics can tell you a LOT about your traffic.

~BB~

Whatever content is being removed cannot even begin to make up for the endless, limitless supply of free stuff becoming more and more available!

[BellaBellucci]

That doesn't answer an earlier question of mine, which is "the reason why no paysite has ever set up their own freesite in order to drive traffic to their paysite (and garner all the advertising revenue) is..."

They do to a certain extent. Seanchai's is what? TGirls.com, right?!

As to free site owners, they don't producer their own content, so they give away someone else's STOLEN content to bring in their traffic, viewers to which they can sell other products.

Seriously. What's so hard to understand?! :?

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

whatever content is being removed cannot even begin to make up for the endless, limitless supply of free stuff becoming more and more available!

OMG! Advertising!

Do you watch television? Do you watch commercials? Do you sometimes buy the products and sometimes not?

~BB~

[nysprod]

They do to a certain extent. Seanchai's is what? TGirls.com, right?!

As to free site owners, they don't producer their own content, so they give away someone else's STOLEN content to bring in their traffic, viewers to which they can sell other products.

Seriously. What's so hard to understand?! :?

~BB~

What's not being understood is how exactly all this free traffic is being monetized so as to justify the 100's of millions of dollars being invested...and the advertising that "Spunk Lube" buys isn't the answer...lol.

And you're getting away from the original question, which is:
When a freesite buys a paysite it has damaged, how does it then expect to convince people who are getting porn for free to suddenly pay for it?

[nysprod]

OMG! Advertising!

Do you watch television? Do you watch commercials? Do you sometimes buy the products and sometimes not?

~BB~

What legitimate companies do you see advertising on tube sites??

[BellaBellucci]

What's not being understood is how exactly all this free traffic is being monetized so as to justify the 100's of millions of dollars being invested...and the advertising that "Spunk Lube" buys isn't the answer...lol.

You're fucking with me now, right?! :?

Depending on market forces, after one buys a paysite, they can either convert it for use as a traffic magnet (freesite) or decide to produce content (paysite). Some might even find ways to run a profitable freesite that produces content if they can take over the ENTIRE industry. I won't argue that it's not a long-term strategy.

~BB~

[nysprod]

You're fucking with me now, right?! :?

Depending on market forces, after one buys a paysite, they can either convert it for use as a traffic magnet (freesite) or decide to produce content (paysite). Some might even find ways to run a profitable freesite that produces content if they can take over the ENTIRE industry. I won't argue that it's not a long-term strategy.

~BB~

It's not the attraction of traffic...that's being accomplished...it's monetizing the traffic i.e. convincing people to buy something they're already getting for free (or simply depending on Spunk Lube to spend 100's of millions on advertising)...oh wait, the freesite will simply buy the Spunk Lube corporation and make the money that way.

[BellaBellucci]

What legitimate companies do you see advertising on tube sites??

Define 'legitimate companies.?'

According to Forbes, porn does a billion dollars plus a year in sales... and that's from 2001. That doesn't include accessory businesses that are much larger than 'Spunk Lube.' That's not legitimate enough for you?!

http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html

~BB~

[LibertyHarkness]

why dont you email fabian directly .. go visit xbiz/net look on forums under anything with fabian name on it .. he will happily explain to you how their engine works for tube site, for paysite, for advertising, for contract shooting , for DVD etc .. :)

[BellaBellucci]

I've explained it. Repeatedly. I'm done. :lol:

~BB~

[nysprod]

Define 'legitimate companies.?'

According to Forbes, porn does a billion dollars a year in sales... and that's from 2001. That doesn't include accessory businesses that are much larger than 'Spunk Lube.' That's not legitimate enough for you?!

http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html

~BB~

Legitimate = non-porn. Think dishwashing liquid.

Darling, the level of free porn available, not to mention internet penetration, has expanded considerably since 2001. And don't bother quoting 12 year old statistics from a different age and assume they indicate a forever, unbroken, upward path.

The record companies were making plenty of money in CD sales in 2001...now they're not although they have altered their business models. But those new models depend on selling something else, like publishing or live shows which, as should be obvious, is NOT readily available for free to consumers.

[BellaBellucci]

http://blog.cytalk.com/2010/01/web-porn-revenue/

Anyone have an even more updated figure?

~BB~

[nysprod]

http://blog.cytalk.com/2010/01/web-porn-revenue/

Anyone have an even more updated figure?

~BB~

First, there's no way to factually ascertain that info because porno firms are typically private, meaning they are under no obligation to provide certified, audited, financial statements (unlike public companies that sell shares listed on exchanges).

Next, the percentage attributed to China, with its government sponsored counterfeiting, pirating and intellectual property theft, is likely to be very inaccurate, which leads me to distrust these statistics.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Steven who owns xxxxxxxxxxxxx- be I've dmca'd them several times and they ignore me

[VictoriaVeil]

Legitimate = non-porn. Think dishwashing liquid.

Darling, the level of free porn available, not to mention internet penetration, has expanded considerably since 2001. And don't bother quoting 12 year old statistics from a different age and assume they indicate a forever, unbroken, upward path.


Not for nothing, but porn is a legit business! Since you think more recent numbers, the following is from the pinkcross website , which is actually anti-porn!

It is estimated that there are 4.2 million porn Web sites — 12 percent of the total amount of sites — allowing access to 72 million worldwide visitors monthly. One-quarter of total daily search engine requests, or 68 million, are for pornographic material, where 40 million Americans are regular visitors.

Chatsworth, California produces 85% of the world’s adult content. All of the top female talent agencies are located in or with in the Chatsworth local radius. Female performers are flown or fly to Chatsworth to work in the adult industry. All of the world’s top male talents live or travel to Chatsworth California for work. Almost every major and minor adult DVD Company is in the local Chatsworth radius.

The United States adult film industry produces 4,000–11,000 films a year and earns an estimated $9–$13 billion in gross revenues annually. An estimated 200 production companies employ 1,200–1,500 performers.

[nysprod]

Not for nothing, but porn is a legit business! Since you think more recent numbers, the following is from the pinkcross website , which is actually anti-porn!

It is estimated that there are 4.2 million porn Web sites — 12 percent of the total amount of sites — allowing access to 72 million worldwide visitors monthly. One-quarter of total daily search engine requests, or 68 million, are for pornographic material, where 40 million Americans are regular visitors.

Chatsworth, California produces 85% of the world’s adult content. All of the top female talent agencies are located in or with in the Chatsworth local radius. Female performers are flown or fly to Chatsworth to work in the adult industry. All of the world’s top male talents live or travel to Chatsworth California for work. Almost every major and minor adult DVD Company is in the local Chatsworth radius.

The United States adult film industry produces 4,000–11,000 films a year and earns an estimated $9–$13 billion in gross revenues annually. An estimated 200 production companies employ 1,200–1,500 performers.

By legitimate I just meant non-porn...lack of better terminology. All these "estimates" are simply speculation since, as I said, no actual financial figures are released. And an "anti-porn" website making these estimates could mean they want to overstate the revenues for their own purposes-like fundraising for example (there has to BE a problem so that they have a "reason" to exist and raise money). Which is exactly what they are:

From their website: Pink Cross Foundation is a faith-based IRS approved 501(c)(3) public charity dedicated to reaching out to adult industry

So $13B rev/11k films = $1.18M/film. And 200 producers divvying up $13B/yr leaves $65m/producer/yr. Hmmm...

So with all that loot floating around, what's the problem with free tube sites?

[acouplenyc]

our thoughts:

"People often justify piracy by saying they are stealing from the rich, but they are, in fact, making it more difficult for anyone but the very rich to produce anything." - Gawker Comment

[VictoriaVeil]

our thoughts:

"People often justify piracy by saying they are stealing from the rich, but they are, in fact, making it more difficult for anyone but the very rich to produce anything." - Gawker Comment

Well said er well quoted lol! Its a matter of revenue going to the proper place.. the smaller the producer the greater effect it has on the bottom line of the particular company..

by the logic of dishwasher soap being a real company versus porn ( and they are both real)-- say a competitor pirates say dove soaps formula to make dishwasher soap and then shared it with the world... how long would it would be before people stopped buying Dove soap?

[acouplenyc]

Well said er well quoted lol! Its a matter of revenue going to the proper place.. the smaller the producer the greater effect it has on the bottom line of the particular company..

by the logic of dishwasher soap being a real company versus porn ( and they are both real)-- say a competitor pirates say dove soaps formula to make dishwasher soap and then shared it with the world... how long would it would be before people stopped buying Dove soap?

exactly. it applies across the board. the technorati loves to shout from the mountain tops about how egalitarian they are, but the truth is they just want stuff for free. did you see the below article on Gawker/Gizmodo?

http://gawker.com/5977163/hands-on-with-kim-dotcoms-new-mega-this-service-could-dismantle-copyright-forever?tag=megaupload

[VictoriaVeil]

I hadnt seen that... (oof.)

[tvkim]

Zzzzz. I've heard this for the past few years yet we've just had an awesome year with good growth. Shitty paysites, poorly run businesses and lazy webmasters have had their day. Companies who continue to please their customers, to change with the times, to fight piracy of their content and to produce quality content can still flourish. Which is why Grooby is shooting more scenes a month than ever before.

I am sure that Grooby sites do very well, but if the independents are making so much from pay-sites, do you see them doing webcam shows for such low rates?

Makes me think that they must be finding it very hard to make ends meet.

[GroobySteven]

Steven who owns xxxxxxxxxxxxx- be I've dmca'd them several times and they ignore me
email me

[Prospero]

Praise for free sites like the AVN things - and awards -with the resulting upsurge in traffic to them must surely jeopardise some of the sites we all love so well, like this one.

[GroobySteven]

No non-porn business advertises on free porn tube sites that I've ever seen...which have you?

Pills, especially sex aid pills is the big one but also high ticket/low cost porn like phone sex, cam sex, dating sites promote themselves on these sites. It's not just the advertisement you can see, it's controlling the traffic and being able to direct it to a site, there is more than one way to do that.

Paysites have a very poor ratio of return advertising on those sites.

[GroobySteven]

Ok, so what about Sean's theory: freesite buys paysite then shuts freesite.

That surely hasn't happened.

It's not a theory, it's what's happenning. This is what fucks me off about people like you. You ask a question, the answers are given and then you decide to argue against it.

[GroobySteven]

That doesn't answer an earlier question of mine, which is "the reason why no paysite has ever set up their own freesite in order to drive traffic to their paysite (and garner all the advertising revenue) is..."

We own a couple of hundred free sites from hungangels, hungdevils, tgflix, tgirls, solo model blogs, specific blogs, FHG sites.
What we don't do is take other people's stolen content to raise our profile and traffic.

[GroobySteven]

What's not being understood is how exactly all this free traffic is being monetized so as to justify the 100's of millions of dollars being invested...and the advertising that "Spunk Lube" buys isn't the answer...lol.

And you're getting away from the original question, which is:
When a freesite buys a paysite it has damaged, how does it then expect to convince people who are getting porn for free to suddenly pay for it?

It's like pulling teeth.
The free tube sites aren't targetting specific sites to devalue them - they've targetted the industry in general. A program or website may start to see it's value and sales drop and decide now is a good time to sell.
The buyer, gets a name brand with a good reputation and can then send traffic from their network of other brands, free sites and other traffic sources to the site to hopefully increase revenue. As they're a larger company, costs are lower and they can sell within their network. They also get the very valuable "ex-member" list. Anybody who has been a member of a website before has probably had an email sometime after they cancelled giving them an offer to return or join another site at a discount. These "ex-members" are pre-qualified (we know they have a credit card and are willing to purchase paysite memberships) so the amount of sales you get on a right offer can be staggering, especially when the ex-member list can go into the 100,000's of people.

Let's look at something a little closer to home. Hungangels.com is a brand and site that's been around for sometime and made it's money from affiliate sales. The previous owner had other committments and was unable to invest enough time in the site to make it enough money, and with affiliate sales dropping by the month as many paysites were making less new sales - so decided a one-time buyout (after making money on the site for 10 yrs).
A larger company (Grooby) which could absorb the running costs of servers and staff buys it. Immediately there is a saving, as we don't have to pay afffiliate fees for sales to our own sites to Hungangels.com. We then do some basic cosmetic work, link it into our other networks to drive more traffic in, change out the banners to a lot more Grooby sites but also other sites we know we can make sales on. Other bonuses are the members list, the search engine ranking that we can use to link our sites to (Hungangels has an excellent ranking) and the ability to use the site as an outlet for our products. We'll have recovered our investment in under 18 months.

So again - Manwin has bought up good brands - Reality Kings, Digital Playground, etc were all bluechip type adult brands but worth less than they were before the advent of the free for all tube sites. Because of the size of Manwin's network they should be able to make those brands profitable. The business model isn't bad - but using stolen content sites to drive traffic (and hurt the overall business) is.

[GroobySteven]

I am sure that Grooby sites do very well, but if the independents are making so much from pay-sites, do you see them doing webcam shows for such low rates?

Makes me think that they must be finding it very hard to make ends meet.

If by "independent" sites you mean solo model sites, well that businsess model is well broken regardless of whether independent or with a big company. Some solo models compete really well, especially ones who have something a bit different to offer but the general TS model site (or any solo girl site) is a hard sell. To be fair, it's not just the piracy that has hurt them but the amount of solo girl websites out there (almost every girl has one ... and watch for another later today) but also the size and value for money that the larger paysites offer. A lot of solo models sites have hurt themselves by not updating regularly or giving customers some form of access to them.
I don't think camming for $2 a minute is bad ($120 an hr?) especially on top of running a site, doing affiliate sales, etc. It's all income.

[natina]

some cam girls make over $10,000.00+++/week.

a Friend of mine was able to purchase a home cash after doing a cam girl job for about a year.

she got $2.00/min for nude chat per user. there were sometimes 10++ or more user at any one minute.

I think a few times when I was there she had 30 or 50 users doing nude chat with her.

thats $2 x 40 users x minutes=$$$$$$$

lets say she has $2X40X60 minutes X2 hours X 5 days/week=$48,000.00

nude chat was purchased in bocks of time for $25.00,$50.00 ,$75.00 and $100.00...........++++

her nude chat actually cost more then $2/min and you did not have to use the whole prepaid $25.00 time.

[natina]

many people say a legitimate acting job or Hollywood job is one that has the back end $$$$$$$. residuals like an actor in a Hollywood film.

an actress who won a 2013 AVN award was said to be homeless and broke.

another actress was living in a mobil home yet her one movie made over 1 billion dollars USA.

this is why porn is not considered a legitimate business.
many movies get big advertisement dollars and product placement. you can not get that with adult porn.

no billboard ad's, no magazine or television advertisement, no product placement at MC Donald's ,burger king are any popular food chain.


porn actors miss out on a lot of $$$ in residuals and often there scence get released over without the actor earning any additional income or incentative to promote the film. so adult actresses or contract girls and get money to become exclusive to a certain porn company and to show up at trade shows.

[iagodelgado]

Thread of the year so far. An eye-opener on how the industry works.

[nysprod]

It's not a theory, it's what's happenning. This is what fucks me off about people like you. You ask a question, the answers are given and then you decide to argue against it.

Ok, I promise to not make any further attempts at intelligent conversation...

[GroobySteven]

Ok, I promise to not make any further attempts at intelligent conversation...

Further ?

Seriously though, don't ask a question of someone qualified to give the proper answer and then decide to start arguing because you don't like the answer. I'm happy to elaborate but it's dull to have to repeat myself.

[GroobySteven]

One note on cams. The highest performing Imlive model is currently a TS. Imlive are very happy with their tgirl cams which is why THEY (not AVN) made the decision to give the Best TS Model a prize of a diamond, at the AVN Awards as well as the Best Female and Best Male Performers, despite some people not wanting that to happen.

http://www.tgirl-cams.com

[Ecstatic]

Zzzzz. I've heard this for the past few years yet we've just had an awesome year with good growth. Shitty paysites, poorly run businesses and lazy webmasters have had their day. Companies who continue to please their customers, to change with the times, to fight piracy of their content and to produce quality content can still flourish. Which is why Grooby is shooting more scenes a month than ever before.

True that. But it does make it harder for us smaller companies to compete in the market. Not that the UP Network is giving up: quite the contrary, we're working harder than ever to offer the best quality content we can.

[Ecstatic]

Somehow I don't think there's a lot of congressional interest in breaking up porn monopolies. They have better things to not do.

~BB~

Well said, Bella!

[Genetic]

Ok, I promise to not make any further attempts at intelligent conversation...

There seems to be a component of this that you're not quite getting and I'm not sure why. If we simplify it and break it down hopefully it'll make sense -

1. I set up 30 tube sites with content stolen from premium sites.

2. Users start uploading to my tube sites.

3. My sites then start to get hits of around let's say for argument's sake 1 million each site per month.

4. Each advertiser pays half a cent for each hit and I have 5 advertisers on each site. 5 advertisers x 1 million hits x .5 cent = $250,000. Multiply that by 30 sites and I'm now making $7.5 million per month.

5. The sites I'm stealing from start to lose revenue because I'm giving their content away for free.

6. I start setting up online dating sites, mail order stores and other misc businesses. This gives me further profits while the sites I'm targeting are starting to struggle.

7. I then start buying my competition because their business model is no longer profitable. They can't generate new content and charge for it cause I've been stealing it and so it has no value.

8. I remove all that site's content from my tubes and start advertising the pay site on all the tubes. With exclusivity restored, the value of the pay site's brand goes back up.

9. People will start to go to the pay site if they cannot get what they want for free. Sounds ridiculous but it will happen especially if I put truncated scenes in low res on my tube sites.

10. Rinse and repeat.

Now those figures are all invented and oversimplified but that is essentially how it works.

While there are a lot of tech savvy people who will go and torrent porn or visit tube sites, there are still huge numbers of people who are very paranoid about getting "porn advertising viruses" etc on their PCs and will use pay sites rather than torrent. The whole thing is basically tricking your customers into thinking they have free choice and that they can get things for free when in reality, everything they do is putting money into your pocket.

[RallyCola]

There seems to be a component of this that you're not quite getting and I'm not sure why. If we simplify it and break it down hopefully it'll make sense -

1. I set up 30 tube sites with content stolen from premium sites.

2. Users start uploading to my tube sites.

3. My sites then start to get hits of around let's say for argument's sake 1 million each site per month.

4. Each advertiser pays half a cent for each hit and I have 5 advertisers on each site. 5 advertisers x 1 million hits x .5 cent = $250,000. Multiply that by 30 sites and I'm now making $7.5 million per month.

5. The sites I'm stealing from start to lose revenue because I'm giving their content away for free.

6. I start setting up online dating sites, mail order stores and other misc businesses. This gives me further profits while the sites I'm targeting are starting to struggle.

7. I then start buying my competition because their business model is no longer profitable. They can't generate new content and charge for it cause I've been stealing it and so it has no value.

8. I remove all that site's content from my tubes and start advertising the pay site on all the tubes. With exclusivity restored, the value of the pay site's brand goes back up.

9. People will start to go to the pay site if they cannot get what they want for free. Sounds ridiculous but it will happen especially if I put truncated scenes in low res on my tube sites.

10. Rinse and repeat.

Now those figures are all invented and oversimplified but that is essentially how it works.

While there are a lot of tech savvy people who will go and torrent porn or visit tube sites, there are still huge numbers of people who are very paranoid about getting "porn advertising viruses" etc on their PCs and will use pay sites rather than torrent. The whole thing is basically tricking your customers into thinking they have free choice and that they can get things for free when in reality, everything they do is putting money into your pocket.

yes but then i will open my own kick ass tube site and steal your content!

[Nikka]

Fuck youuuuuuuuuuu

[garypeters123]

Re: Fuck You AVN!

[garypeters123]

Why don't you guys band together and go after Manwin? Take some of the million$ you made and approach it like a Manhattan project like Hollywood did with Dotcom.

Heck, it may cost $100 Million but that is a small fraction of the money the porn tycoons rake in.

Hire a former attorney general or some-such rainmaker and do what you have to do.

I know the 1st step I would take because the industry I am involved took a shellacking from crooked disrupters but we prevailed in the end. It took about 6 years.

[nysprod]

there seems to be a component of this that you're not quite getting and i'm not sure why. If we simplify it and break it down hopefully it'll make sense

Not any of my business...I have no opinion on that...Moving on