Iran and transsexuals

[Prospero]

Interesting item in today's Guardian about a new film just out in Iran dealing with transsexuals there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/02/iranian-film-taboo-subject-transsexuals

[danthepoetman]

Nice post, Prospero. The article is a bit thin, though. Someone alluded to the subject recently somewhere on the board.
There is much religious ideology in the apparent "acceptance" of srs in Iranian society. Of course, it is good for t-women. But the problem is that several different categories of people, many gays, for instance, are being pressured to go through srs in order to "fit in" socially, or if you will, in order to have their sexual desires or practices fit in the hetero men-women only mould.

[nina_lisa]

I've seen a documentary a few yeas ago on French tv, about Iranian trannsexuals, they asked a doctor: we heard some gays have the operation in order to escape discrimination?
Doctor: I had cases where a few gays came to see me, they wanted to change gender to be able to live a normal life, but once i show them pictures of sex reassignment surgery, explain how painful it is, they run away.

I am not Iranian, or ever lived there, of even have Iranian friends, so by no mean an expert in the situation.

But here is the thing, While been gay is not accepted, two guys kissing or hugging or holding hands is not seen by anyone as gay. Even many will not consider a man sleeping with another man as been gay (One a Kuwaiti guy told me: i am by no mean gay, or interested in men, but i prefer to have sex with gays, because they are more fun than women). So gay can pass very easily unnoticed in society.

In one an article about Saudi Arabia, one gay guy said, i bring my BF to my room, have sex all day, then evening we go down stair and have dinner with the family and no one have any idea what happened earlier.

A Filipino friend of mine told me once about her gay friend, he worked sometime in Saudi Arabia, and he was like: i want to go back to arab countries, here everyone treat me like shit for been gay. While in Jeddah i will go to a shopping mall and men will be: Hi sexy boy, wana have dinner with me, you have beautiful eyes.

Sure in front of the law, it is much better for a gay person to be in the Philippines an not in Saudi Arabia, but sometime social aspects can have a way bigger impacts on people life day to day than laws.

I wouldn't assume because the law is more in favor of trans girl, that it is better to be trans than gay in that region.

[danthepoetman]

I was not necessarily implying that, Nina Lisa. Transsexuality is difficult enough in any type of circumstances, there is no denying that in any way.
But you know, they put gay men to death in Iran. That’s no joke. Transsexuality is accepted as a medical condition, as said in the article. Of course, you might have that perception in Iran (and I’m not either an expert) that is shared in many places in the world, that the gay man, is the one who receives, the passive one in the sexual relation. I don’t know how the authorities consider the question. But I know many gay men are definitely pressured to go through srs: this one I’ve seen myself in a documentary by CBC a couple of years ago. Everything in Iran is supposed to fit in the “hetero-normative” mould.

[nina_lisa]

I was not necessarily implying that, Nina Lisa. Transsexuality is difficult enough in any type of circumstances, there is no denying that in any way.
But you know, they put gay men to death in Iran. That’s no joke. Transsexuality is accepted as a medical condition, as said in the article. Of course, you might have that perception in Iran (and I’m not either an expert) that is shared in many places in the world, that the gay man, is the one who receives, the passive one in the sexual relation. I don’t know how the authorities consider the question. But I know many gay men are definitely pressured to go through srs: this one I’ve seen myself in a documentary by CBC a couple of years ago. Everything in Iran is supposed to fit in the “hetero-normative” mould.

When Talking about Iran the debate is not anymore: can LGB get married, or adopt kids? it is more: do they exist, or do you have the right to be LGBT.

Suddenly not been able to get married, does not sound that bad in comparison.

This said i am skeptic about the image, that there is a mass sex change operation taking place in Iran against the Gay.

sure i will not be surprised that such cases exist, hormones therapy trying to cure gays, is not new and it existed in the west long before Iran.

The famouse case is of Alan Turing (very famous mathematician) who had to accept to take female hormones, in exchange of not going to prison, then he committed suicide (that was 1954).

I am skeptic, because it is not easy to detect who is gay or not, if you want to detect who is trans, just ask them their ID (Kuwait is a case, where police told a trans girl: visit me every day at 10am for sex, or i'll throw you in jail), while for gays specially in region it is very easy to pass unnoticed.

a trans i am skeptic for many reasons, as when people talk about Iran, it is like 100s of gays every months are transformed into ts:

From a logistic point of view
1- You don't take a man, throw them in the hospital, come 5 hours later and have a woman.
2- Middle eastern are really really hairy, they will need a huge amount of laser an electro to get that hair gone.

If it is true, after having spent a few thousands on hair removal, i would had instead moved to Iran and asked them to cure me.

3- hormones: they will not change a man overnight. Even know some friends they take bills, it does not work and 12months later the doctor try injections instead.

How can they control the gays are taking their hormones, run non stop blood tests etc?

Wouldn't many gays just say: i used to think i like Dicks, but then i found i was wrong and suddenly i love pussies?

No secret Iran is not gay friendly, i just don't swallow what everyone say about gays massively been transformed into ts. Now of course hard to know what is going on without been there.

[danthepoetman]

Nina Lisa, you’re making me say what I don’t here. I’m saying there’s a lot of pressure, and not always only on gays. There’s a lot of pressure on transsexual themselves also, whether they want srs or not, to have it performed on them. I didn’t have to go very far to find confirmation of what I was saying. Here’s a quote from Wiki on the matter:
« UNHCR's 2001 report says that sex reassignment surgery is performed frequently and openly in Iran, and that homosexual and cross-dressing people, although unrelated to transsexualism, would be safe as long as they keep a low profile.[3] However, the Safra Project's 2004 report considers UNHCR's report over-optimistic. The Safra Project's report suggests that UNHCR underestimated legal pressure over transsexual and LGBT matters.[citation needed]
The report further states that currently, it is not possible for presumed transsexual individuals to choose not to undergo surgery - if they are approved for sex reassignment, they are expected to undergo treatment immediately. Those who wish to remain "non-operative" (as well as those who cross-dress and/or identify as genderqueer) are considered their biological gender, and as such they are likely to face harassment as being homosexuals and subject to the same laws barring homosexual acts. »
Here’s the link:
Transsexuality in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran)

Then an article from the CBC to also back it up :
“Iran's gay plan
A documentary looks at Iran's heartbreaking "solution" to homosexuality
Filmmaker Tanaz Eshaghian has long been fascinated by gender issues, so when she read a New York Times story about how the Iranian government was dealing with homosexuality, she was completely transfixed.
Iranian-born herself, the New York-based filmmaker learned that in Iran, homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. But the government has provided a way out for the nation’s gays and lesbians: a sex-change operation. Fully paid for by the state, the procedure would allow these people to conform to Iran’s theocratic standards of sexuality.
Eshaghian decided she had to interview some of those involved in this gender-reassignment program. The result is a devastating documentary called Be Like Others. Shot in verité style, the film captures the pain and brutality of a regime that is pushing sex-change operations as the path to a final solution to homosexuality.
What was nearly as surprising as the revelations in the film is the fact that Eshaghian didn’t have to go undercover to get her story.
“It’s a very public phenomenon,” she says. “These sex changes are legal and are endorsed by the leading clerics. It’s embraced. I asked for a press permit before I went. After a month, I was given the OK. Officially, I was allowed to do what I needed to do. It’s not like I was doing a film on nuclear strategy — they don’t see it as an openly political issue. The rest was what you have to do with any documentary: spend a lot of time gaining trust.”
What her film reveals is a culture so steeped in hatred of gays and lesbians that it deems a sex change preferable to simply accepting differences in sexual orientation. The shift in policy came more than two decades ago, when Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini issued a fatwa (religious decree) declaring sex changes permissible for “diagnosed transsexuals.” Be Like Others introduces us to a number of the people who have been given this label. Some have accepted their fate, and feel the sex change to be a way to avoid further persecution; others are clearly uncomfortable with the idea, but have agreed to it simply because of intense outside pressure. One young woman laments that her boyfriend seems uninterested in her now that she’s no longer a man.
“Here are individuals who are living in a very traditional culture, and they are on the margins,” Eshaghian says. “Those people tend to show you how everyone else thinks. I thought it would be a way to look at gender overall, through people who are not fitting in.”
The stories that emerge are heartbreaking. One young man who becomes a woman is disowned by his family after the operation. “[The family] lived outside of the city, and for them, they simply couldn’t even imagine the idea of someone having this done. They told him the day he had the operation he was dead to them. It was heartbreaking to see this person do this, and then be on his own, in an environment where the family is really the rock of your existence. It’s not like the West, where you’re supposed to step out on your own and make something of yourself.”
Eshaghian says she was also struck by the issue of class. Richer Iranians, she suspects, wouldn’t feel the need to have this operation, but the poor are disproportionately affected, and feel they need to stick to the rules enforced by society. “If you’re poor, this is when the conformity is really expected of you.”
At one point during Eshaghian’s 45-day stay in Iran, a reporter from the government-controlled media arrived to talk to the soon-to-be transsexuals. But she didn’t interview them so much as cajole and criticize the young people facing the knife, insisting that they had brought this upon themselves.
"That was an incredible moment,” Eshaghian says. “She has an identity that really could only have been created in the past 30 years, since therevolution. There are no questions in her mind, there are no grey areas — everything is in black and white. I envy her clarity. She was very happy — any time you get rid of ambiguity altogether, there’s an element of joy.
“Her point was that there are rules and rules are there to help you. If you start cross-dressing before your operation, you bring the problems with the police upon yourself. Islamic Iran and the Christian Right have so much in common —it’s just surprising that they’re not better friends.”
Despite the persecution, none of the participants speak of escaping to the West — although there is fleeting mention of countries where gays can actually marry. “That’s something that upper- and middle-class people might think of, but for the poor, and those who live in rural areas, it’s not even in their consciousness. It’s not like they have relatives in Switzerland or France they could stay with or anything,” Eshaghian says.
“But like one asks at one point, why should they have to leave? It’s their country and their culture and they want to remain part of it.”
Be Like Others screens as part of Montreal’s World Film Festival, which runs until Sept. 1.
Matthew Hays is a writer based in Montreal. He is the author of The View from Here: Conversations with Gay and Lesbian Filmmakers.”
Here’s the link to that one:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/film/story/2008/08/26/f-homosexuality-iran-sex-change.html

And yet more articles on the subject, Nina Lisa:
Iran's 'diagnosed transsexuals'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7259057.stm

Iran's solution to 'gay problem'? State-funded sex change surgery
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/890223--iran-s-solution-to-gay-problem-state-funded-sex-change-surgery

Iran Encourages Sex Change Surgery to Solve Gay Problem
http://voices.yahoo.com/iran-encourages-sex-change-surgery-solve-gay-problem-5054726.html

Iran bans being gay, but allows sex change
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2002164729_irangender30.html

Many Iranian homosexuals pursue sex change operations
http://christiangovernance.ca/news/many-iranian-homosexuals-pursue-sex-change-operations

Iran's persecution of gay community revealed
Lifestyles of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people exposes them to horrific punishment, study finds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/17/iran-persecution-gay-community-revealed

And yet a couple more that address the same question :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/04/iran-sex-change-operation_n_1568604.html
http://khaldoun.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/35/

Finally, a youtube on the subject :
"Changing Sex to Escape Death: Homosexuals Dilemma in Iran"
Changing Sex to Escape Death: Homosexuals Dilemma in Iran - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNsBAQ5fco)
I assume this is enough to illustrate my point...

[danthepoetman]

Here. I fell on an even more explicit article on the subject, which in this case indicates indeed pretty massive sex changes for Iranian homosexuals. From the UK's "The Gardian". Here's the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/25/iran.roberttait

"Sex changes and a draconian legal code: gay life in Iran
· Country is second only to Thailand for sex changes
· State funds for operations up under Ahmadinejad
When Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran's ever-combative president, provoked his latest controversy in New York this week by asserting that there were no homosexuals in his country, he may have been indulging in sophistry or just plain wishful thinking.
While Mr Ahmadinejad may want to believe that his ideal of an Islamic society is exclusively non-gay, it is undermined by the paradox that transsexuality and sex changes are tolerated and encouraged under Iran's theocratic system.

Iran has between 15,000 and 20,000 transsexuals, according to official statistics, although unofficial estimates put the figure at up to 150,000. Iran carries out more gender change operations than any other country in the world besides Thailand.

Sex changes have been legal since the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, spiritual leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution passed a fatwa authorising them nearly 25 years ago. While homosexuality is considered a sin, transsexuality is categorised as an illness subject to cure.

The government seeks to keep its approval quiet in line with its strait-laced stance on sexuality, but state support has actually increased since Mr Ahmadinejad took office in 2005.

His government has begun providing grants of £2,250 for operations and further funding for hormone therapy. It is also proposing loans of up to £2,750 to allow those undergoing surgery to start their own businesses.

Maryam Khatoon Molkara, leader of the country's main transsexual organisation, said some of those undergoing operations were gay rather than out-and-out transsexuals.

"In Iran, transsexuals are part of the homosexual family. Is it possible that a phenomenon exists in the world but not in Iran?"she told the Guardian.

"Transsexuality is a real disaster. It's a one-way street. But if somebody wants to study, have a future and live like others they should go through this surgery."

In New York on Tuesday, Mr Ahmadinejad claimed that homosexuality and lesbianism did not exist in Iran.

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country," he told a questioner who accused his government of executing gay men. "In Iran we do not have this phenomenon, I don't know who has told you that we have it."

But Ms Molkara - who persuaded Khomeini to issue the fatwa on transsexuality - said his stance was inconsistent with the state's sex change policy.

"They are saying homosexuality doesn't exits, but they have never given me a chance to use my influence among transsexuals to prevent transsexuality from happening," she said.

The president's claim was also an eye-opener to seasoned Iranian human rights lawyers, who pointed out today that the country's Islamic legal code made full - and draconian - provision for homosexual offences by both men and women.

It also outraged international gay rights activists, who recalled numerous executions under Iran's sodomy laws. When Iranian legal officials announced the execution of 12 prisoners at Tehran's Evin prison in July, they said the condemned included several "sodomites".

According to campaigners, several gay men have been caught up in a wave of hangings carried out over the summer under a ruthless public order crackdown, although the claims are hard to verify.

There have been other high-profile cases in recent years, including that of two teenagers, Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, who were publicly hanged in the north-eastern city of Mashhad in the summer of 2005 after admitting having sex.

This summer, Pegah Emambakhsh, an Iranian lesbian, was granted permission to take her case to the court of appeal in Britain after claiming she would be in danger of execution if the home office implemented its ruling to deport her to Iran.

"Homosexuality is defined both for men and women in law. There is a section devoted to homosexuality," Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel peace prize-winning human rights lawyer, said.

"There is one part for homosexuality in men, which is called lavat (sodomy), which is punishable by death. There is another for women, which is called mosahegheh. If the crime is committed up to three times, the penalty is 100 lashes. On the fourth, it is execution."

Mohammad Mostafai, an experienced advocate, said: "The fact that there is a penalty for lavat and mosahegheh in our criminal law means they exist.

But if such crimes happen, they are dealt with by guidance courts. These are very closed and acting in them as lawyers is difficult.

"It means the defendants hardly have any access to lawyers. Most such crimes happen inside prison and in single-gender places. As [homosexuality] is a crime which happens in secret, it is hard to estimate how many there are, especially among women."

Under Iranian law, only sexual relations occurring inside heterosexual marriages are permissible. Sodomy is proved if a man confesses four times or through the testimony of four "righteous" men.

The severe penalties have driven Iran's gay community - such as it is - deep underground. There is no gay scene, although there are areas in Tehran where homosexuals are believed to congregate and meet."

[Stavros]

I think the point is that in Iran you cannot be 'in between', you can only be a man or a woman, and can only, legally, be heterosexual, even though in Islamic cultures eunuchs were common both before and after the onset of Islam, so the existence of an intermediary gender role has been common and I think it is only in modern times that most societies in the Middle East have become nervous about sexuality- possibly because of modernisation, immigration and so on. Oman has had a long association with a form of transexuality (the Xanith) if also a controversial one. Most of the Arabs I have known would not discuss these issues, so I stopped trying to raise them.

As far as the Guardian article goes, I think there is a misconception about what a fatwa is -as I understand it, Muslims who want a religious interpretation of an issue -such as divorce, sexual matters, inheritance etc- can ask the opinion of an Imam but an opinion is all that it is -it is not necessary to follow the Imam's advice, and is usually just a single fatwa for that person. The idea that Khomeini issued a fatwa that became a precedent in law seems to me to have nothing to do with Islam as a religion, and is more about the hero-worship/'respect' people give to Khomeini as a scholar, a status which I would assume is in doubt across most of the Islamic world.

[nina_lisa]

Did mean to make you say what you did not say. I know about the articles and reports.

There is still a part of me that is still skeptical, had the reports said: 100s of gay are killed everyday. I would be believe the Iranian regime will do so. Had it said: they are forced into straight camps, i would also believe it. Had said there is a prison near Tehran where 1000s of gays are imprisoned i would also believe it.

I don't deny that sex change operations, happen to gays. Just there is a part of me that is skeptical, as the image one will have about the situation is that 80% of gays have became trans (i know you did not say that, and neither the articles), there is just a part of my brain that is skeptical for some reason.

What i mean is: my feeling maybe part of the image is missing.

Non op trans is another issue. but still not fair to be forced to do what they don't want or feel they want to do.

[danthepoetman]

I understand what you’re saying, Nina Lisa. It’s hard to know precisely what’s happening out there in Iran. And as Stavros just mentioned, it is true that it seems difficult to even get information from people from these countries themselves, sometimes, as if the subject was taboo. Formulated the way you do now, I share a certain scepticism with you.

Now, I think you’re precisely putting your finger on the target, Stavros. It’s this confusion of sexual orientation and sexual identity which seems to be at the root of the problem, here. If you’re a gay bottom, you should be a woman; if you’re any kind of transgender, you should immediately get srs, etc. No place for any middle terms nor any subtelty here.
I didn’t know about the Xanith. It’s very interesting and I’ll look into it. Thanks!
As to the fatwa and the cultural practices and beliefs of Iranian Shiite Muslims, I admit I’m largely ignorant of these questions myself. You’re probably right: Khomeini was every bit as much a popular revolutionary figure as he was a religious leader. When I said that such ideas surrounding transsexuality and homosexuality were linked to religious beliefs, I didn’t mean as an intrinsic part of Islam, but as being apparently morally accessory to the diverse practices of Iranian faith and customs.

[nina_lisa]

Not LGBT related. During Clinton and Mohammad Khatami administration, there was a certain openness even if it was shy between both countries.

Then Ahmadi Najad came, and one of thing his government did was crack on what he considered western hairstyles influences from the last few years.

Everyone is:Iran is declaring war on western hairstyle.

But then when you look at the documentary i remember telling myself: i rarely see people in Europe/USA with those hair style, if anything it is mostly north African, middle eastern Immigrants in Europe that have such hairstyles.

Crazy thing, what religious police considered as normal hairstyle, is the one 99% of men in Europe/USA have. (unless they refer to the 70s and the hippie movement)

[Stavros]

Not LGBT related. During Clinton and Mohammad Khatami administration, there was a certain openness even if it was shy between both countries.

Then Ahmadi Najad came, and one of thing his government did was crack on what he considered western hairstyles influences from the last few years.

Everyone is:Iran is declaring war on western hairstyle.

But then when you look at the documentary i remember telling myself: i rarely see people in Europe/USA with those hair style, if anything it is mostly north African, middle eastern Immigrants in Europe that have such hairstyles.

Crazy thing, what religious police considered as normal hairstyle, is the one 99% of men in Europe/USA have. (unless they refer to the 70s and the hippie movement)

When Lee Kuan Yew was in his Prime in Singapore, any man with hair touching his ears was denied entry to the country unless they agreed to have it cut; and same-sex activities are still illegal there even if Singapore has changed a lot since the 1960s/70s.
However, I think you are right about Ahmadinejad, he was seen at first as a protege of Khamane'i and a man they could trust with the legacy of Khomeini, and also one who was more conservative than Khatami; he has since fallen out of favour with the Supreme Guardian Council and will be replaced at the next election -the deeper question in Iran is how fed up people are with the way Ahmadinejad has wasted the country's resources, and how far another more 'liberal' -by Iranian standards- candiate will emerge and run for President and be allowed to win.

Iran might be ts friendly for those ts who are 'genuine' and who want the operation; for the others it must be a very difficult situation indeed. Curious thing is that one of my early encounters with a Ts, from Brazil who had a small room in Pigalle, thought I was Iranian and said she had a lot of Iranian customers -this was in the early 1970s.

I think the truth is that in all cultures and at all times, there are men who are attracted to transexuals of varied stages (from pr-op closeted TV's all the way to post-op TS etc); and enough tv/ts to keep us going until the sun goes down, as in the next billion years or so!

[BellaBellucci]

Nice post, Prospero. The article is a bit thin, though. Someone alluded to the subject recently somewhere on the board.
There is much religious ideology in the apparent "acceptance" of srs in Iranian society. Of course, it is good for t-women. But the problem is that several different categories of people, many gays, for instance, are being pressured to go through srs in order to "fit in" socially, or if you will, in order to have their sexual desires or practices fit in the hetero men-women only mould.

I've known about this for years. My attitude has always been: 'a place where transsexuals are better accepted than gays? Sign me up!' It had to be so somewhere, but really, whodathunk it'd be Iran? :lol:

~BB~