Tranny Chaser Chaser

[CuriousGeorge]

I found this year old Village Voice article fascinating.

Gay guys in lust for straight guy will go as far as dressing in drag to trap tranny chasers. Apparently not all gay guys like dressing in drag but are willing to try that route to snag a straight guy.

The other interesting thing is the mention about regular straight guys who would never be with another guy, going gaga over trannies. Make someone feminine enough and even "thick neck Guidos with the horse cocks" will screw a transformed guy.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/

[amberskyi]

no comment

[amberskyi]

actually makes me want to get a vag

[GrimFusion]

I found this year old Village Voice article fascinating.

Gay guys in lust for straight guy will go as far as dressing in drag to trap tranny chasers. Apparently not all gay guys like dressing in drag but are willing to try that route to snag a straight guy.

The other interesting thing is the mention about regular straight guys who would never be with another guy, going gaga over trannies. Make someone feminine enough and even "thick neck Guidos with the horse cocks" will screw a transformed guy.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/

Fairly evident. I don't think the femboy and androgyny posts would be nearly as popular on HA if this weren't somewhat true, but I think we're still talking about a fraction of a minority. As I see it, there are essentially two camps here; the handful of men who prefer dick to vagina no matter the person it's attached to, and guys who are desperate and open-minded enough to settle when no other option seems to exist. That is way, way objectifying, but when the only intention is finding a good fuck at a bar and the night is dwindling everybody tends to be a lot less picky and discerning.

If gay dudes can throw on some feminine attire and makeup, hit a bar and steal a "straight" man from a transsexual, more power to 'em. I can see some motive in the silent gay men versus transsexuals feud, but if "stealing our men" is any bit of it, they aren't the type of "admirers" most of the girls around here would want anyhow. I figure a few people won't agree; but they're bottom-feeders and as such, they provide a service to the rest of the crowd. Garbage collection, basically. That is a horrible analogy, but is it untrue?

[omnius]

People are willing to do many extreme things to get pleasure and fulfillment. They are allowed to but remember the risk your taking. Most straight guys are not attracted to guys. You risk your life expecially if you meet a crazy who thinks your a transsexual or women.


Another issue I have is with the tranny chasing issue is that it shows the bias males face. Women can like other women and its okay. They get the nice label of being bi. On the other hand, guys attracted to women and transsexuals are called gay. Most guys that like transsexuals generally are not attracted to guys.

[tsadriana]

no coment

[flabbybody]

irl most of us know the difference between a CD and a transgendered female. I can't believe anyone could be "fooled", unless they want to

[tsadriana]

irl most of us know the difference between a CD and a transgendered female. I can't believe anyone could be "fooled", unless they want to
A very good point there.x

[luvtrans]

At the risk of re-opening a long debate on sexuality, I do not accept that there is a binary aspect to sexuality; it is not a case of hetero versus homo. There are many shades of grey in between not forgetting those who identify themselves as asexual. So if a person with the appearance of a female has a dick or a male with a pussy is going to ruin you day, well tough. I am attacted to the person I am attracted to.

[giovanni_hotel]

Gay guys still think str8 men into TGs are in denial about their sexuality, thus the belief that frilly panties, mascara, perfume lipstick and a wig are enough to hook a hetero dude.

http://media.villagevoice.com/the-tranny-chaser-chaser.6694416.40.jpg

Let's be honest there seems to be large subset of guys on this board who dig BOTH CDs/DQs and transgendered women.

[jamiethewild]

I was discussing this with a girlfriend of mine one time, we both are very beautiful young passable woman and she and i agreed that sometimes we are competing with "men" not woman or ts in this industry we can't believe how sometimes a handsome guy would go after a masculine "clockable" ts over a passable one, unbelievable. We both escort and we read our reviews. She told me " i can't believe i got rated a 7 based based on my looks" when she saw all the girls he review through his TER profile he rated a masculine clockable TS a 10 on her looks. It happen to me also i felt like he rated me unfairly on my looks but rates ugly bitches that look like men a 10, we both were telling each other that am srry that we look like woman not a men.

[giovanni_hotel]

IMO the only real competition a feminine TS has for hetero men are GGs.
Most CDs look like what they are and are attracting a different group of men than TGs.

[Dino Velvet]

I was discussing this with a girlfriend of mine one time, we both are very beautiful young passable woman and she and i agreed that sometimes we are competing with "men" not woman or ts in this industry we can't believe how sometimes a guy would go after a masculine "clockable" ts over a passable one, unbelievable. We both escort and we read our reviews. She told me " i can't believe i got rated a 7 based based on my looks" when she saw all the girls he review through his TER profile he rated a masculine clockable TS a 10 on her looks. It happen to me also i felt like he rated me unfairly on my looks but rates ugly bitches that look like men a 10, we both were telling each other that am srry that we look like woman not a men.

That tells you something about their taste and priorities.

[GrimFusion]

I was discussing this with a girlfriend of mine one time, we both are very beautiful young passable woman and she and i agreed that sometimes we are competing with "men" not woman or ts in this industry we can't believe how sometimes a guy would go after a masculine "clockable" ts over a passable one, unbelievable. We both escort and we read our reviews. She told me " i can't believe i got rated a 7 based based on my looks" when she saw all the girls he review through his TER profile he rated a masculine clockable TS a 10 on her looks. It happen to me also i felt like he rated me unfairly on my looks but rates ugly bitches that look like men a 10, we both were telling each other that am srry that we look like woman not a men.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder then some dudes be needing glasses.
I would imagine that such dudes go after cross dressers for the same reason why your clients donate to you. It's a fetish, just a different kind. It doesn't make any amount of sense to me, but neither do vore, adult babies, pregnant chick porn, or furries and each of those fetishes have a large following. You may as well try to explain why people have phobias. Just don't go dipping your feet into the shallow end of the pool and you should be a'ight.

[dc_guy_75]

My theory is that most guys into crossdressers are crossdressers themselves.

[MHarrigan82]

There is a big difference between a transsexual woman and a cd or tv. I don't see how a straight guy can be tricked by a crossdresser. My girlfriend is transsexual. We have been dating for four months and is my first my transsexual girlfriend. She is no different than my genetic girlfriends that I dated in the past. I have the same arguments with her as with gg ( forgetting to leave the toliet seat open, why don't you watch football in the bedroom and let me watch Grey's Anatomy or Lifetime, or who are you texting). If I had to label myself it would be Hetroflexible. I am not attracted to guys, crossdressers, or tv. I am only attracted to genetic women and passable transwomen. If that still makes me gay so be it.

[jamiethewild]

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder then some dudes be needing glasses.
I would imagine that such dudes go after cross dressers for the same reason why your clients donate to you. It's a fetish, just a different kind. It doesn't make any amount of sense to me, but neither do vore, adult babies, pregnant chick porn, or furries and each of those fetishes have a large following. You may as well try to explain why people have phobias. Just don't go dipping your feet into the shallow end of the pool and you should be a'ight.

Some guys don't make sense at all and their nothing but lost cases walking in life, some even are so confuse that they even bother to ask "does this make me gay ? Am I gay ? am like in my mind, bitch don't come up to me with your confuse mind trying to put "your garbage on my porch" trying to point out that what he did was gay, i just feel like telling them go to your fucking therapist or ask yourself, don't ask me if that makes you gay or not ? am a bottom hetero woman that likes normal sex thats all i know at the end of the day. All those fetish you mention don't make sense to me either. I don't know what to think to that, if judging it can be wrong or right have you heard of this term " theres no right and wrong " you judge it, your mind decides whats right and wrong. I am just a normal girl and sometimes judge things that are out of the norm pretty harsh, but what i am most certainly against is children pornography i strongly dislike that and dont like children being abuse like that " let the children be children".

[doctor screw]

Like my little niece tells me"Hoez be winning"

[Ryz]

Fairly evident. I don't think the femboy and androgyny posts would be nearly as popular on HA if this weren't somewhat true, but I think we're still talking about a fraction of a minority. As I see it, there are essentially two camps here; the handful of men who prefer dick to vagina no matter the person it's attached to, and guys who are desperate and open-minded enough to settle when no other option seems to exist. That is way, way objectifying, but when the only intention is finding a good fuck at a bar and the night is dwindling everybody tends to be a lot less picky and discerning.

If gay dudes can throw on some feminine attire and makeup, hit a bar and steal a "straight" man from a transsexual, more power to 'em. I can see some motive in the silent gay men versus transsexuals feud, but if "stealing our men" is any bit of it, they aren't the type of "admirers" most of the girls around here would want anyhow. I figure a few people won't agree; but they're bottom-feeders and as such, they provide a service to the rest of the crowd. Garbage collection, basically. That is a horrible analogy, but is it untrue?
I have to agree with this.
The guys who are into Tgirls, heavily outweighs the amount of TGirls that are available. A lot of guys on here would lower their standards and just hook up with a CD, if they can't actually find a fulltime TGirl to hook up with instead. And many gay guys are aware of this, and take full advantage of it. :whistle:


no coment

Lol, so why even post a comment then? Was it really necessary?

[hippifried]

Everybody has their own reasons for what they do. But all this blanket pseudo-analysis of people caught in the catch phrases is a fun read for a little while.

[tsadriana]

I have to agree with this.
The guys who are into Tgirls, heavily outweighs the amount of TGirls that are available. A lot of guys on here would lower their standards and just hook up with a CD, if they can't actually find a fulltime TGirl to hook up with instead. And many gay guys are aware of this, and take full advantage of it. :whistle:



Lol, so why even post a comment then? Was it really necessary?
ISimple .just because u to ask :why?

[Ryz]

IMO the only real competition a feminine TS has for hetero men are GGs.
Most CDs look like what they are and are attracting a different group of men than TGs.

There's some pretty passable cds out there.

[tsadriana]

There's some pretty passable cds out there.
Funny sayng that as u look like one.

[Ryz]

Funny sayng that as u look like one.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2r2t44g.gif

[tsadriana]

http://i53.tinypic.com/2r2t44g.gif

The meaning of Ryz come may come from a trade, such as the name "Brewster" which refers to a female brewer. A lot of these craft-based family names might be a profession in another language. This is why it is essential to understand the country of origin of a name, and the languages used by it's family members. Many western names like Ryz originate from religious texts like the Bible, the Bhagavadgītā, the Quran, and so forth. Commonly these names relate to a religious phrase such as "Worthy of praise".
i bet u will do a great job.:dancing::dancing::dancing:

[Ryz]

The meaning of Ryz come may come from a trade, such as the name "Brewster" which refers to a female brewer. A lot of these craft-based family names might be a profession in another language. This is why it is essential to understand the country of origin of a name, and the languages used by it's family members. Many western names like Ryz originate from religious texts like the Bible, the Bhagavadgītā, the Quran, and so forth. Commonly these names relate to a religious phrase such as "Worthy of praise".
i bet u will do a great job.:dancing::dancing::dancing:

k....

[GrimFusion]

Some guys don't make sense at all and their nothing but lost cases walking in life, some even are so confuse that they even bother to ask "does this make me gay ? Am I gay ? am like in my mind, bitch don't come up to me with your confuse mind trying to put "your garbage on my porch" trying to point out that what he did was gay, i just feel like telling them go to your fucking therapist or ask yourself, don't ask me if that makes you gay or not ? am a bottom hetero woman that likes normal sex thats all i know at the end of the day. All those fetish you mention don't make sense to me either. I don't know what to think to that, if judging it can be wrong or right have you heard of this term " theres no right and wrong " you judge it, your mind decides whats right and wrong. I am just a normal girl and sometimes judge things that are out of the norm pretty harsh, but what i am most certainly against is children pornography i strongly dislike that and dont like children being abuse like that " let the children be children".

*leaves his empty big-gulp cup on your porch.
Wait, does that mean I'm gay? lol.

Judging people is human nature. In fact, I find it irritating when people say shit like "Don't judge me" or "You can't judge me" because everybody judges one another whether society deems it taboo or people take offense. I don't think that judging people is wrong, but making those judgments public or talking about them can be very wrong.

You say you judge things which are out-of-the-norm pretty harshly, but isn't that just your norm? The set of established circumstances that seem normal to you aren't necessarily normal to the rest of us. Difference creates conflict; conflict necessitates change; change leads to progress and improvement, yadda, yadda. Difference isn't a bad thing.

I don't know why the topic of child pornography would slip into the conversation, but eww. I read an article a few months ago which reported that Portland and it's outlying metro areas harbored some of the highest per capita child molestation and pornography crime rates in the country. Anybody found guilty for fucking with kids like that should be chemically castrated. It gives me the shivers knowing I live near a large number of child molesters. Kinda makes me glad that I don't have any kids.

[Merkurie]

This is one of the most original "..am I gay..." threads yet.

[jamiethewild]

*leaves his empty big-gulp cup on your porch.
Wait, does that mean I'm gay? lol.

Judging people is human nature. In fact, I find it irritating when people say shit like "Don't judge me" or "You can't judge me" because everybody judges one another whether society deems it taboo or people take offense. I don't think that judging people is wrong, but making those judgments public or talking about them can be very wrong.

You say you judge things which are out-of-the-norm pretty harshly, but isn't that just your norm? The set of established circumstances that seem normal to you aren't necessarily normal to the rest of us. Difference creates conflict; conflict necessitates change; change leads to progress and improvement, yadda, yadda. Difference isn't a bad thing.

I don't know why the topic of child pornography would slip into the conversation, but eww. I read an article a few months ago which reported that Portland and it's outlying metro areas harbored some of the highest per capita child molestation and pornography crime rates in the country. Anybody found guilty for fucking with kids like that should be chemically castrated. It gives me the shivers knowing I live near a large number of child molesters. Kinda makes me glad that I don't have any kids.


I agree that saying things out loud if not the right way and is very wrong however some people would say if they feel someones going over their boundaries.

I knew you were going to back after me when i said i judge things out of the norm. Well i see myself as a straight woman so does society, society doesn't know am a TS and your right others would see it as out of the norm when they know am one.

They (child molesters) need to be castrated like do it in africa, then burn alive . Why do u say your glad you don't have children ?

[GrimFusion]

I knew you were going to back after me when i said i judge things out of the norm. Well i see myself as a straight woman so does society, society doesn't know am a TS and your right others would see it as out of the norm when they know am one.
I really wasn't trying to get into all that, but I guess you're right. Society hasn't exactly advanced past the point of squabbling over petty differences. Some people just feel strongly about stuff they logically shouldn't. Thanks, religion. lol.


Why do u say your glad you don't have children ?
I've heard too many stories from parents who let their kids hang out at friend's houses and find out months or years later that some creepy ChoMo family member played grabby-pants with them. I'd want to kill that mother fucker. That's why I'm glad I don't have kids.

[natina]

I have transformed guys who wanted to dress into females for halloween for fun and they pulled lots of dates.

you have to go to extremes though for some guys. I have to for example tape there face to get rid of those angles. put them in a very tight and strong steel boned corset or waist cincher

http://www.myspace.com/video/www-austinsangels-com/matt-transforms-into-krista/8619332

Full Body Male to Female Transformation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7CLM-cIOLQ)

Male to Female TRANSformation Tutorial - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNWpZ1BFSE&feature=related)

Boy transforms into Glamorous Girl - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8GxJmTyL0&feature=related)

Boy transforms into Beach Babe - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq7M97sscxs&feature=related)




There's some pretty passable cds out there.

[blckhaze]

irl most of us know the difference between a CD and a transgendered female. I can't believe anyone could be "fooled", unless they want to

What he said.
After leaving this forum as a regular and switching to another (BGC......dont ask)
i saw first hand how some gay men's thirst will have them say and do anything for any masculine piece of dick. Now the same logic that applies in a mans use of a pick up line applies here. Noone would use a tactic that didnt work at least 2-3 times outta 10 in the past (probably more). So clearly some men just dont care and a holes a hole is a hole (or in some cases a dicks a dick is a dick).

[natina]

The Power of Makeup! Boy to Girl Transformation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qMlx3v-8dA&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

[natina]

http://www.myspace.com/video/www-austinsangels-com/matt-transforms-into-krista/8619332

[natina]

Stunning transformations in Budapest...


A magician with make up!
Gorgeous makeups for everyone.
(The Film made by Navaho - www.videofilmforgatas.hu (http://www.videofilmforgatas.hu))


Stunning transformations in Budapest... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wCa7LKMXs&feature=g-vrec)

Stunning transformations in Budapest... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wCa7LKMXs)






There's some pretty passable cds out there.

[natina]

#3 & #4 link at the bottom will fool most guys here
http://www.travismink.hu/



Stunning transformations in Budapest...



A magician with make up!
Gorgeous makeups for everyone.
(The Film made by Navaho - www.videofilmforgatas.hu (http://www.videofilmforgatas.hu))


Stunning transformations in Budapest... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wCa7LKMXs&feature=g-vrec)

Stunning transformations in Budapest... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wCa7LKMXs)

[GrimFusion]

#3 & #4 link at the bottom will fool most guys here
http://www.travismink.hu/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/grimfusion/natina.jpg

Wut you doin'?

[brickcitybrother]

Wow - this is really all over the place.

[Ryz]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/grimfusion/natina.jpg

Wut you doin'?

Ah u messed it up, the second panel should only say. "wut r u doin"

[Ryz]

Natina...
wut r u doin
natina
STAHP

[GrimFusion]

I'll fix it next time there's an opportunity to use it.
That probably means I'll fix it tomorrow. I usually throw out the PSD files when I make something simple like this, and I'm way too tired to be fucking around remaking the thing tonight.

[sensuelle]

To me a CD or TV is man so if a guy goes with one he is not straight he is at least bisexsual no matter how good the cd looks.

[danthepoetman]

To me a CD or TV is man so if a guy goes with one he is not straight he is at least bisexsual no matter how good the cd looks.
You’re right on the principle, in my opinion, lovely Sensuelle (oups! that one although true is a bit redundant! ;)). I agree with you (and I respect bisexuality too; I don't mean to offend anyone). But seeing some men today who are so naturally feminine, I’ve been wandering more and more where the line is. Some of these young men who models high fashion as females, are sometimes so feminine, there’s no way anyone could know they are male would they see them anywhere. I’m personally repulsed by the idea of sex with a man. Not by sex with a girl with a little extra. But with people who are so androgynous, like these, I have a hard time. In all honesty, I’m troubled by some of them. I’m not sure how my body would react, if I was to try sex with one of them. Not sure at all it would work. But my point is, there’s a fine line that for some reasons (surely of a biological nature, because as far as I’m concerned, this phenomenon is new, it dates back to only a few years) is getting thinner and thinner yet. And I don’t know where this is all going…

[natina]

CD'S & TV'S or under the umbrella of TG,especially CD'S

they feel like a woman but not just all the time.

cd's go through more trouble then TV to get dressed and present as a woman.
i THINK TV'S WILL NOT SHAVE OR do enough to look feminine

DQ are either doing it for shows,contest or performance or they might be "TRANNY CHASER CHASERS"


To me a CD or TV is man so if a guy goes with one he is not straight he is at least bisexsual no matter how good the cd looks.

[natina]

You are gay - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsVpdBIi1BU)

[sensuelle]

Yes i get your point some cd's look really convincing but as soon as the wigs comes off and the pre filled bra is taken off it is still a boy and usually they wear a very heavy amount of make up.I dont want to judge anyone but i am just saying that if someone has sex with a cd or tv he has to have bi feelings because in the end a cd= a man.


You’re right on the principle, in my opinion, lovely Sensuelle (oups! that one although true is a bit redundant! ;)). I agree with you (and I respect bisexuality too; I don't mean to offend anyone). But seeing some men today who are so naturally feminine, I’ve been wandering more and more where the line is. Some of these young men who models high fashion as females, are sometimes so feminine, there’s no way anyone could know they are male would they see them anywhere. I’m personally repulsed by the idea of sex with a man. Not by sex with a girl with a little extra. But with people who are so androgynous, like these, I have a hard time. In all honesty, I’m troubled by some of them. I’m not sure how my body would react, if I was to try sex with one of them. Not sure at all it would work. But my point is, there’s a fine line that for some reasons (surely of a biological nature, because as far as I’m concerned, this phenomenon is new, it dates back to only a few years) is getting thinner and thinner yet. And I don’t know where this is all going…

[sensuelle]

yes sometimes they are classed under the umbrella of tg but in my opnion this is not correct since a beeing a cd or tv is a fetish or a sexsual thing.While beeing a ts or tg is something completly different.This also why i think ts/tg also shouldent be in the same category as gay and bi people because beeing a ts/tg has something to do with who you are yourself while beeing gay or bi has something to do with who you are attracted to, these are 2 completly different things!



CD'S & TV'S or under the umbrella of TG,especially CD'S

they feel like a woman but not just all the time.

cd's go through more trouble then TV to get dressed and present as a woman.
i THINK TV'S WILL NOT SHAVE OR do enough to look feminine

DQ are either doing it for shows,contest or performance or they might be "TRANNY CHASER CHASERS"

[natina]

Main stream society says even TS POST OP or PRE OP TS are MEN

see proof below


Judge Denies Transgender's Request for Name Change

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=70677

Judge listed "the gender reassignment process will not alter Petitioner's DNA" as the reason the request was denied. Judge also cited Genesis 1:27, 28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..."

[danthepoetman]

Yes i get your point some cd's look really convincing but as soon as the wigs comes off and the pre filled bra is taken off it is still a boy and usually they wear a very heavy amount of make up.I dont want to judge anyone but i am just saying that if someone has sex with a cd or tv he has to have bi feelings because in the end a cd= a man.
Sensuelle, I’m not talking about a guy with a wig at all. And I’m not saying that you’re wrong on the principle. I’m talking to you about a fine line androgyny as been thinning and reducing and playing with for a few years. So much so that it’s getting weird. I’m talking about someone like him, Stas Fedyanin. He’s a male who models as female. He lives in female clothing and act like one, but weirdly remains male. And that’s just one example.

[natina]

great looking CD'S who look like women most of the time are all the time.

some get breast implants, butt and hip work,cheek and chin work but do not say they are a woman are even TG

[danthepoetman]

yes sometimes they are classed under the umbrella of tg but in my opnion this is not correct since a beeing a cd or tv is a fetish or a sexsual thing.While beeing a ts or tg is something completly different.This also why i think ts/tg also shouldent be in the same category as gay and bi people because beeing a ts/tg has something to do with who you are yourself while beeing gay or bi has something to do with who you are attracted to, these are 2 completly different things!


Main stream society says even TS POST OP OR PRE OP TS OR MEN
Natina is obviously right.
But Sensuelle, I'm not seeking a debate with you; you're also totally right: there's no mistake possible, there's a world of difference between a ts and a tv or a cd. That's not my point.

[tsdvdman]

Yes i get your point some cd's look really convincing but as soon as the wigs comes off and the pre filled bra is taken off it is still a boy and usually they wear a very heavy amount of make up.I dont want to judge anyone but i am just saying that if someone has sex with a cd or tv he has to have bi feelings because in the end a cd= a man.
THANK YOU THANK YOU..:iagree:. It's good to hear a woman express this. I said the exact same thing in another "reviews" thread and ALL of the dudes..especially the brits jumped all over me. The facts are the facts. They try to convince others because they are trying to justify it in thier own heads, A CD/TV is a man..plain and simple and should NOT be considered in the same category as a TS..period

[danthepoetman]

great looking CD'S who look like women most of the time are all the time.

so get breast implants, butt and hip work,cheek and chin work but do not say they are a woman
And it's all the more true that these guys will age and loose their feminine features, eventually. If they want to remain what they are (and in fact, who they are), they need to eventually transition. I think you're right again, Natina. But this is a new phenomenon that goes beyond simple transvestism. We just live in a weirder and weirder society. Exciting and strange, but sometimes really weird.

[natina]

EVEN ts WILL LOSE THERE FEMININITY if they do not take hormones.

castration helps

how many times have I seen a TS who use to look very good start to get hard looking and pick up masculine muscle from doing activity's that if they were a GG woman would not be able to do???????



great looking CD'S who look like women most of the time are all the time.

some get breast implants, butt and hip work,cheek and chin work but do not say they are a woman are even TG


Main stream society says even TS POST OP or PRE OP TS are MEN

see proof below


Judge Denies Transgender's Request for Name Change

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=70677

Judge listed "the gender reassignment process will not alter Petitioner's DNA" as the reason the request was denied. Judge also cited Genesis 1:27, 28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..."

[bottomXOslave]

THANK YOU THANK YOU..:iagree:. It's good to hear a woman express this. I said the exact same thing in another "reviews" thread and ALL of the dudes..especially the brits jumped all over me. The facts are the facts. They try to convince others because they are trying to justify it in thier own heads, A CD/TV is a man..plain and simple and should NOT be considered in the same category as a TS..period

No their straight for the time i crossdress for them and put make up and everything , high heels!!!

[amberskyi]

And it's all the more true that these guys will age and loose their feminine features, eventually. If they want to remain what they are (and in fact, who they are), they need to eventually transition. I think you're right again, Natina. But this is a new phenomenon that goes beyond simple transvestism. We just live in a weirder and weirder society. Exciting and strange, but sometimes really weird.

crossdressers and transvestites arent going to transition because they dont feel like woman at all.they have no drive or desire to reach womanhood.
no some transwoman start out cross dressing (or dressing part time) but they are still woman because they spent theyre whole life feeling like they were born in the wrong body.a phenomenon that a cd/tv wouldn't understand.

[amberskyi]

great looking CD'S who look like women most of the time are all the time.

some get breast implants, butt and hip work,cheek and chin work but do not say they are a woman are even TG

the last photos you posted are of carmen carrera who is indeed a transwoman. she just happens to do drag for a career

[natina]

carmen was a crossdresser and or drag performer before recent transition

[danthepoetman]

crossdressers and transvestites arent going to transition because they dont feel like woman at all.they have no drive or desire to reach womanhood.
no some transwoman start out cross dressing (or dressing part time) but they are still woman because they spent theyre whole life feeling like they were born in the wrong body.a phenomenon that a cd/tv wouldn't understand.
Yes. Sure, Amber. Absolutely. Once again, that’s not my point. There is not one single doubt in my mind that transsexuality in women is a biological condition, that the irresistible and crystal clear inner feeling of a transsexual woman is that of a woman, and that she therefore find herself trapped in the wrong body. No argument from me about that.
We sure have talked about the subject often, but I’m surprised that what I’m alluding to doesn’t seem to get across at all. I guess I express myself badly.
I find that there is a new phenomenon, Amber, of which nature we know very little about. Real androgyny, which is quite beyond the traditional nature of transvestism. It’s not “normal” (I’ll use the big word) for a guy to be so feminine naturally (as these models I’m showing you). To me, there’s probably another type of biological phenomenon there. And these individuals are in their own way jerking with this line between male and female. Am I happy about that? Personally, hell! no. I’m an old hetero guy and I feel fucked (no pun)… I feel fooled, and troubled. This is just weird!

[amberskyi]

Yes. Sure, Amber. Absolutely. Once again, that’s not my point. There is not one single doubt in my mind that transsexuality in women is a biological condition, that the irresistible and crystal clear inner feeling of a transsexual woman is that of a woman, and that she therefore find herself trapped in the wrong body. No argument from me about that.
We sure have talked about the subject often, but I’m surprised that what I’m alluding to doesn’t seem to get across at all. I guess I express myself badly.
I find that there is a new phenomenon, Amber, of which nature we know very little about. Real androgyny, which is quite beyond the traditional nature of transvestism. It’s not “normal” (I’ll use the big word) for a guy to be so feminine naturally (as these models I’m showing you). To me, there’s probably another type of biological phenomenon there. And these individuals are in their own way jerking with this line between male and female. Am I happy about that? Personally, hell! no. I’m an old hetero guy and I feel fucked (no pun)… I feel fooled, and troubled. This is just weird!

androgeny is not a new phenomenon. look at grace jones.she had masculine and feminine characteristics in equal measure but identified as a woman. also theres prince.extremely pretty and feminine for a dude but has never identified as anything other than a hetero male.what about jaye davidson from the crying game? very extremely pretty and feminine but now living as a buff gay dude lol

[danthepoetman]

androgeny is not a new phenomenon. look at grace jones.she had masculine and feminine characteristics in equal measure but identified as a woman. also theres prince.extremely pretty and feminine for a dude but has never identified as anything other than a hetero male.what about jaye davidson from the crying game? very extremely pretty and feminine but now living as a buff gay dude lol
These are pretty recent examples, Amber. And yet even the persons you mention are not anywhere as close as where this Stas Fedyanin is, or for instance Arthur Nazarov (I don’t know all of their names by heart). It is a relatively new phenomenon and this is precisely part of my point: they’re getting more and more feminine. That’s what so strange!
You don’t find such femininity in males in history. Or at least, not since the time of early photography and cinema. And not really either in painting. Nothing of this sword.

[amberskyi]

These are pretty recent examples, Amber. And yet even the persons you mention are not anywhere as close as where this Stas Fedyanin is, or for instance Arthur Nazarov (I don’t know all of their names by heart). It is a relatively new phenomenon and this is precisely part of my point: they’re getting more and more feminine. That’s what so strange!
You don’t find such femininity in males in history. Or at least, not since the time of early photography and cinema. And not really either in painting. Nothing of this sword.

ancient egypts androgynous king:
""[He had] an androgynous appearance. He had a female physique with wide hips and breasts, but he was male and he was fertile and he had six daughters," Braverman said."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080502-AP-feminine-ph.html

[danthepoetman]

ancient egypts androgynous king:
""[He had] an androgynous appearance. He had a female physique with wide hips and breasts, but he was male and he was fertile and he had six daughters," Braverman said."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080502-AP-feminine-ph.html
Yes, we think it was a case of intersexuality, most probably the result of Androgen Insensivity Syndrome (which is the major cause). But once again, it’s not what we’re talking about one bit, here. lol
Or yet, it does have a relation to that, in my opinion. I really suspect we're facing a new kind of biological phenomenon.

[amberskyi]

Yes, we think it was a case of intersexuality, most probably the result of Androgen Insensivity Syndrome (which is the major cause). But once again, it’s not what we’re talking about one bit, here. lol

how isnt it? he was feminine and yet was still a man.
so whos to say that these male models dont have the same hormonal imbalance thats making them appear feminine?
im just saying that androgyny no matter how extreme is nothing new.it might just be new to you lol

[danthepoetman]

how isnt it? he was feminine and yet was still a man.
so whos to say that these male models dont have the same hormonal imbalance thats making them appear feminine?
im just saying that androgyny no matter how extreme is nothing new.it might just be new to you lol
No no, Amber: you can’t mix intersexuation with androgyny in history. AIS is a well defined and well known condition today. And a few others cause different types of intersexuation. Yet, as I was saying myself, you’re right in saying that it probably is something of the same nature, something biological indeed. Yes! That’s exactly my point! There is something weird happening, and new, and that touches more individuals than ever before, obviously. All you have to do to see that, is check the fashion world, check on the net, anywhere!

[amberskyi]

No no, Amber: you can’t mix intersexuation with androgyny in history. AIS is a well defined and well known condition today. And a few others cause different types of intersexuation. Yet, as I was saying myself, you’re right in saying that it probably is something of the same nature, something biological indeed. Yes! That’s exactly my point! There is something weird happening, and new, and that touches more individuals than ever before, obviously. All you have to do to see that, is check the fashion world, check on the net, anywhere!

Again my friend...its nothing new.just google androgyny in art and history

[danthepoetman]

Again my friend...its nothing new.just google androgyny in art and history
Amber, your penetrating intelligence forces my submission to your view... I was precisely trying to say the opposite, but I can't deny the strength of your arguments. You obviously see everything I said with an infallible clarity and have pierced through the fortress of my errors. I stand corrected. ;)

[MacShreach]

These are pretty recent examples, Amber. And yet even the persons you mention are not anywhere as close as where this Stas Fedyanin is, or for instance Arthur Nazarov (I don’t know all of their names by heart). It is a relatively new phenomenon and this is precisely part of my point: they’re getting more and more feminine. That’s what so strange!
You don’t find such femininity in males in history. Or at least, not since the time of early photography and cinema. And not really either in painting. Nothing of this sword.

Mmmmm you might want to check out the 'Mollie Houses' which existed in 18th century London. Perhaps also the description (in Burckhart and elsewhere) of the femboys who hung about the corners of Florentine streets (and whom MIchelangelo was attracted to.) These were young men presenting as closely to female as they could in an era when doing so could get you executed. In Rome, young men self-castrated in the temple of Cybele and then lived as female prostitutes, and this tradition can be traced back to the Temple of Inana in Uruk in Sumer. The Native American peoples also had transgendered people. Going the other way, George Sand (a natal woman) habitually presented as a man.

As for representation in art, the 'Morning' in Michelangelo's sculpture is clearly a man with tits, and there is an obvious femboy standing behind Jesus in da Vinci's 'last supper'==albeit one which has often been misrepresented as a woman!

Transgenderism most certainly is not a new phenomenon; yes modern medicine can make a transgendered individual very much more convincing in appearance, but the social phenomenon is as old as society.

[MacShreach]

Well, she's sitting actually. But anyway

[MacShreach]

No no, Amber: you can’t mix intersexuation with androgyny in history. AIS is a well defined and well known condition today. And a few others cause different types of intersexuation. Yet, as I was saying myself, you’re right in saying that it probably is something of the same nature, something biological indeed. Yes! That’s exactly my point! There is something weird happening, and new, and that touches more individuals than ever before, obviously. All you have to do to see that, is check the fashion world, check on the net, anywhere!

Two things are new in addition to modern medicine: the first is that while being transgendered is still dangerous, it is no longer punishable by a judicial death sentence, at least in large parts of the world (thankfully) (sorry I'm chatting with a student as well this is a bit disjointed) Where was I? and there is greater freedom for TS/TG to present as what they are with less risk of social violence. Secondly the internet has made it possible for TS/TG to be in public while also quite anonymous and has very much strengthened the network...which just did not exist before.

These have also allowed trans-attracted men like us to come much more out into the open where once we would probably not, because we could not see how we fitted or even knew what we are--we knew we were not gay because we are attracted to women, but we had nowhere to find similar voices. Places like this, for all its faults, provide that.

(BTW I just remembered I have a ref somewhere to conquistadores finding transgendered people in Peru in the 16th c)

[danthepoetman]

Well, she's sitting actually. But anyway
You know John was always presented as a very young man. The tradition had it that he was 15. And it wasn't to displease Leonardo, who has you know, was leaning pretty hard toward young men...

[danthepoetman]

Mmmmm you might want to check out the 'Mollie Houses' which existed in 18th century London. Perhaps also the description (in Burckhart and elsewhere) of the femboys who hung about the corners of Florentine streets (and whom MIchelangelo was attracted to.) These were young men presenting as closely to female as they could in an era when doing so could get you executed. In Rome, young men self-castrated in the temple of Cybele and then lived as female prostitutes, and this tradition can be traced back to the Temple of Inana in Uruk in Sumer. The Native American peoples also had transgendered people. Going the other way, George Sand (a natal woman) habitually presented as a man.

As for representation in art, the 'Morning' in Michelangelo's sculpture is clearly a man with tits, and there is an obvious femboy standing behind Jesus in da Vinci's 'last supper'==albeit one which has often been misrepresented as a woman!

Transgenderism most certainly is not a new phenomenon; yes modern medicine can make a transgendered individual very much more convincing in appearance, but the social phenomenon is as old as society.


Two things are new in addition to modern medicine: the first is that while being transgendered is still dangerous, it is no longer punishable by a judicial death sentence, at least in large parts of the world (thankfully) (sorry I'm chatting with a student as well this is a bit disjointed) Where was I? and there is greater freedom for TS/TG to present as what they are with less risk of social violence. Secondly the internet has made it possible for TS/TG to be in public while also quite anonymous and has very much strengthened the network...which just did not exist before.

These have also allowed trans-attracted men like us to come much more out into the open where once we would probably not, because we could not see how we fitted or even knew what we are--we knew we were not gay because we are attracted to women, but we had nowhere to find similar voices. Places like this, for all its faults, provide that.

(BTW I just remembered I have a ref somewhere to conquistadores finding transgendered people in Peru in the 16th c)
I now have to suppose my English is much much worst than I ever have envisioned!
I know there always were transgenderism, MacShreach! And in almost every country, everywhere in the world! I myself am partly huron Indian and I know very well about everything surrounding the berdache. I’m NOT talking about that! What I’m saying is exactly on this line: we know there has always been transvestites and surely transsexuals, but nowhere in any type of iconographic records do you ever see anyone looking as feminine as some of the young men we see today -and I don't mean t-women: men. NOWHERE! We would see it; we would have the data, the images; we would know! Nowhere in the literature do you have any mention of very credible and passable transvestites. Even in the Greek society, which was very free with homosexuality and quite free with such cases of transgenderism, the mentions we have shows how ridicule these transvestites were to the eye of people in general. Aristophanes, for instance, with one of his character in “The Thesmophorias”. In the photographic records, you can only find very few remotely passable individuals before about the 50s. And more and more and ever more since then. There’s a few representations in art, but usually, these representations obviously shows adolescents, like Verrochio’s David, for instance. On the contrary, we are told and reminded that in theatre, in the West, teenagers had to play the roles of females when women were forbidden, before somewhere in the 17th century, for the play to be realistic and enjoyable. Same thing in Japan and in the Chinese opera. In Japan men eventually replaced teens, but quite a bit closer to our time.
There is something totally new here: naturally very feminine men; biologically or physically or morphologically. It can only be a biological phenomenon.

[Jericho]

naturally very feminine men; biologically or physically or morphologically. It can only be a biological phenomenon.


I blame Glam Rock! :shrug

[danthepoetman]

I blame Glam Rock! :shrug
lol :lol:
Most definitely has something to do with it.

[danthepoetman]

One more thing you should be careful about, MacShreach, is the link you’re making between religious figures. Yes, Cybele is a fertility goddess from Turkish (today) origins, and her priests were castrating themselves. But you can’t confuse sacred prostitution with the lives of the priests, who were the gardian of the cult and not prostitutes themselves. Women were prostituting themselves around many temples in Ancient times; it doesn’t have any direct relation to the cult of Cybele. You link Cybele to the Summerian goddess Inana, but nothing seems to indicate that one came from the other. They were both fertility goddesses with very different attributes. You also linked Inana to Ishtar, somewhere else: Ishtar is the Assyrian goddess of love and war, that absorbed Inana after the conquest of Mesopotamia, and also integrated her attributes, but the second doesn’t come from the first. You even went as far as relating Cybele with Isis! The Egyptian genius was by much fertile enough to produce its own mythology, you know. Besides, Isis came from the myth of the resurrected god Osiris, who had more to do at the time with fertility and the Nile than Isis herself. The myth of Osiris and the practices related to it were in place 26 hundred years BC. In fact, Isis only became a prominent goddess much later, when Osiris was transform into Sarapis, during the hellenistic period. She then developed a large following and later on, the famous Mysteries which probably influenced the birth of Christianity, with other Mysteries cults. Yes, the places where the “black virgins” were celebrated were converted by Catholicisim into “Notre Dame” churches and the same imagery (Isis mother with the infant Horus) adopted for the Virgin Mary.
The link you finally establish between Batchura Mata and Cybele is interesting, but quite immoderate. Once again, it’s not as if the mythology of North India was not fertile enough in itself. In the case of Cybele, it’s her lover that spills his blood by castrating himself; on the contrary, Batchura Mata cuts her breasts. The obvious association is that of a bloody sacrifice to the earth, but such religious ideas were very common throughout the world: even in the Americas, long before the arrival of the Europeans! And castration was also practiced in many places around the world. The link between the two are very loose.
There. I said it. It had bothered me ever since I read it on the other thread. You obviously have good knowledge of mythology; I just didn’t want to get into such a debate. But there it is: I succumbed.

[dabaldone]

Danthepoetman, I thought I was the only nerd of transsexualsim throut history and religion. I started studying it 20+ years ago to help keep me sane with being trans-attracted. Big props to you bro!

[tsdvdman]

No their straight for the time i crossdress for them and put make up and everything , high heels!!!
LOL..yep..and if you got a big dick they will give you a rave review in the "TS" section at that..lol.SMH

[danthepoetman]

Danthepoetman, I thought I was the only nerd of transsexualsim throut history and religion. I started studying it 20+ years ago to help keep me sane with being trans-attracted. Big props to you bro!
lol Thanks, Dabaldone... :) :cheers:

[amberskyi]

more androgyny through out history:

-greak figure aphroditus. depicted as having breast and female figure but also having a penis and beard....Aphroditus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphroditus)

-Donatello's bronze david is known for it androgynous and effeminate nature...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_(Donatello)#The_bronze_David

-leanardo da vinci's oil painting of john the baptist stood out for its unusual portrayal of st john as androgynous and feminine...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_the_Baptist_(Leonardo)

-roman historian quintus curtius rufus talks about alexander the greats eunuch lover bogoas. "Curtius maintains that Alexander also took as a lover "... Bagoas, a eunuch exceptional in beauty and in the very flower of boyhood, with whom Darius was intimate and with whom Alexander would later be intimate" (VI.5.23). "........http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Alexander_the_Great#Alexander.27s_marriages_and_se xuality

[Dino Velvet]

I blame Glam Rock! :shrug

I remember having a Motley Crue poster up on my wall as a teen. My father was like WTF? but I told him they were just into Satan pointing at the Pentagram and not a pack o' queers. He rubbed his chin and walked away.

[danthepoetman]

Amber, do you even read what I write?

[MacShreach]

I now have to suppose my English is much much worst than I ever have envisioned! Claro


It can only be a biological phenomenon.

Stuff and nonsense. Prove it. You won't be able to and you know it. Men are simply not becoming more feminine biologically; any apparent move in this direction is due only to a lessening of societal pressure and nothing biological about it. But crack on, son, convincingly and scientifically prove your case and I might give it some thought.

[danthepoetman]

Stuff and nonsense. Prove it. You won't be able to and you know it. Men are simply not becoming more feminine biologically; any apparent move in this direction is due only to a lessening of societal pressure and nothing biological about it. But crack on, son, convincingly and scientifically prove your case and I might give it some thought.
“Son”? MacShreach, I’m a 54 year old man soon to be a grand-father: you know what you can do with your patronizing… “Nonsense”? How would you know? If I “prove it scientifically” you “will give it some thought”? Why? are you my or anybody’s judge in front of the Eternal or something? And what are you ever proving “scientifically” yourself, or even just backing up with some references, MacShreach? Get real, “son”…
Of course I can’t prove it “scientifically”! Researches in the field of transsexuality are already in themselves so poor and so few it’s an outrage!
My English is not great, sure. “Claro”, you say? Hey! man, English is not my mother tongue nor is it my usual language of expression; I’m not going to apologize for that; I do my best and I just expect a minimum of efforts on your part to understand what I’m saying and to gallantly try not to be an asshole about it, something anybody owe anyone else even of the same cultural origin; we call that politeness and decency. Is that too fucking much to ask? Just at the very least take the time to read what I write, would you?
All I am trying to do is present some elements that appeared not just interesting to me, but really fascinating and even a little bit scary, as far as I’m concerned. I never pretended to possess some absolute truth; I was just expecting an exchange on the precise subject I was addressing, which seem obviously impossible in the crazy context of this forum –something I admit I’m starting to seriously tire from. What the fuck is this supposed to be: a tournament of egos?

This being said, there is definitely, in my opinion, strong scientific facts that could support the phenomenon I’m referring to. And in my opinion, there’s chances transsexuality in itself as a biological reality is also related to these facts. Of course, there always was intersexuation; we now know several conditions that cause several types of intersexuation. Androgen Insensivity Syndrome we know is the most important one. There are some others, like the Turner Syndrome for instance, which is a much more serious condition in medical terms in this case. Many cases of intersexuation at different levels were certainly the result of simple biological divergences, which in the end is the basis for life’s diversity. We know there always also was, everywhere around the world, transsexualism, men with the desire to live as women. Yet, you have to admit the scarcity of historical testimonies strongly indicates it still was in every society a relatively marginal phenomenon (not homosexuality, of course).
(By the way, we have to be careful not to confuse representations of Hermaphrodite in the Ancient World, a purely mythological figure, with intersexed children. Unfortunately, in most Ancient societies, these children were seen as bad omen or freaks, and were usually killed at birth. I direct you to Luc Brisson for information on the topic, an eminent expert on the Ancient World and especially on Greek society –from which the myth of Hermaphrodite comes-, and mainly his book entitled “Le Sexe incertain. Androginie et hermaphrodisme dans l’Antiquité Gréco-Romaine”. Don’t know if it is translated, but it would be something like: “The Uncertain Sex. Androgyny and Hermaphrodism in Greco-Roman Antiquity”.)
Your assertion according to which any of this is purely sociological is totally absurd and completely contradicted by every studies on transsexuality, which most often starts at an age too early to only be the result of constraint, and with such a profound behaviour and sense of self that it wouldn’t make any sense; completely in contradiction with the testimonies of parents and witnesses of such behaviour in its development. Besides, in itself, this opinion is quite shocking, because it would in turn mean that transsexuality is purely psychological and thus could be “treated”, that it is just in these women’s mind and has no more profound basis. On the contrary every indications points in the direction of a biological origin. Several studies, yet I admit not conclusive so far, seems to show that a part of the brain in the region of the hypothalamus, a set of glands producing many hormones related to sexual functions, is similar between women and M2F, and dissimilar in men. Most studies I have read on the subject have personally convinced me that transsexuality is a level of intersexuality, and therefore a biological condition.
On the other hand, you’re certainly right in saying that there is more social acceptance. But by denying the so incredibly obvious fact that there is so many cases of transsexualism today, compare to what we know from the past is like saying we should believe what you think rather than base ourselves on anything. If there had been as many cases in the past, we would have some records, it would inevitably have been told somewhere -that men felt in such numbers to be women! You hear the amount of dismay and suffering these women goes through today, you can take account of their testimonies (depression, suicide, total desperation): such a condition would have produced at least a certain numbers of accounts in literature and in art. The reports we have are very limited on the contrary, and we have to rely on this relative absence of data to conclude anything, not on the belief that there could have been more than reported! In other words, we have to use what we have or don’t have at our disposal as an argument, not what we think we know.
That the prevalence of transsexualism is rising might indeed be only an impression; I don’t believe so, but I admit that possibility. We do live in a world in which information has never been so munificent and accessible. But what some sociological studies suggest is quite an overwhelming presence of transsexuality in our world today. Olyslager and Conway presented a paper at the WPATH 20th International Symposium (2007), that seems to indicate that the prevalence of M2F could be of an order of 1 in as low as 1000! That’s just amazing, no? And all in a ratio of 1 F2M for 3 M2F, to 1 F2M for 8 M2F; which could possibly be explained by a simple biological variation –which would results in equal numbers- and a biological cause in itself –which could explain the greater number of feminizations. But if it wasn’t enough, the precise impression I was trying to relate, here, was that nowhere in any photographic records of at least the first half of the 20th century, do you ever see any men looking so feminine as some men today, which female fashion models (males!) are for instance showing. This is all I wanted to share and to exchange on… This is the simple remark I originally made.

But since you now want “scientific proofs” of that (?), I will try to get you at least some arguments based on biology. A phenomenon that has been studied by biologist in recent years is that of the feminisation and infertility of the faunistic population around many water sources, little rivers etc, especially surrounding cities. Cases of intersex fishes, unbalanced ratio of female compared to males, infertile males, and even late sex reversal, etc. Each and every one of the studies link the phenomenon to substances we call xenoestrogens. It’s a number of substances widely used in industrial production which molecules imitates natural estrogens (natural female hormones). The phtalates, present in every type of plastic (from baby bottles to kitchen appliances, plastic plates, electronic appliances, glasses and cups) are the most common, but a great number are created and released into the environement. Here is a list from Wiki, with the “products” that contains them:
- alkylphenols (intermediate chemicals used in the manufacture of other chemicals)
- atrazine (weedkiller)
- 4-Methylbenzylidene camphor (4-MBC) (sunscreen lotions)
- butylated hydroxyanisole, BHA (food preservative)
- bisphenol A (monomer for polycarbonate plastic and epoxy resin; antioxidant in plasticizers)
- dichlorodiphenyldichloroethylene (one of the breakdown products of DDT)
- dieldrin (banned insecticide)
- DDT (banned insecticide)
- endosulfan (widely banned insecticide)
- erythrosine, FD&C Red No. 3 (E127)
- ethinylestradiol (combined oral contraceptive pill) (released into the environment as a xenoestrogen)[35]
- heptachlor (restricted insecticide)
- lindane, hexachlorocyclohexane (restricted insecticide)
- metalloestrogens (a class of inorganic xenoestrogens)
- methoxychlor (banned insecticide)
- nonylphenol and derivatives (industrial surfactants; emulsifiers for emulsion polymerization; laboratory detergents; pesticides)
- pentachlorophenol (restricted general biocide and wood preservative)
- polychlorinated biphenyls, PCBs (banned; formerly used in electrical oils, lubricants, adhesives, paints)
- parabens (lotions)
- phthalates (plasticizers)
- DEHP (plasticizer for PVC)
- Propyl gallate (used to protect oils and fats in products from oxidation)
(Here’s the link on that one: Xenoestrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen) ). These substances are not biodegradable and rejects remain in the environement for long periods of time, are consumed by small animals and eventually often by human beings. Biologist even think that water might be contaminated as women urine, released in water, is often filled with superfluous amounts of oestrogens. We used to think only huge amounts of xenoestrogens could affect an organism. We understand today that even infinitesimal amounts can have a certain effect. Here are some other links; once again, my English might not be sufficient to explain properly, and besides, I am no biologist:
http://www.energeticnutrition.com/vitalzym/xeno_phyto_estrogens.html#.UG0XwZhmJIc
http://suite101.com/article/list-of-xenoestrogens---chemical-estrogens-a205523
http://www.natural-health-for-fertility.com/xenoestrogen.html
http://www.researchgrantdatabase.com/g/5R01ES012446-05/Xenoestrogen-effects-on-reproduction-in-male-trout/
http://www.alive.com/articles/view/20187/xenoestrogens
http://www.katolenyardley.com/Xenoestrogens.pdf
We know the effects on male are multiple, and many in the range of different medical affections; but they obviously also have feminizing effects as well. And these effects can be felt from pregnancy, and affect the foetus (sorry for the redundancy).

One more thing that has been bothering biologist around the world in the last 10 to 15 years is the alarming rate at which the average male sperm count is decreasing. It is said to be half of what it was 70 years ago. Studies for the moment are not conclusive (as always –and it is ever more difficult since it is targeting substances produced by large corporations), but several seem to point out toward the xenoestrogens once again. Here are the links to some studies on the subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1566659/
http://www.asiaandro.com/archive/1008-682X/2/263.htm
We therefore see a general tendency, here, don’t we?

What strikes me particularly is that the photographic records from our society seem to show a parallel between the apparition of more and more feminine men and the growth of industrial production and consumption (and therefore garbage accumulation). I know in this case it is a highly unscientific observation, but any attentive review of pictures surrounding the topic, mainly female impersonation, will appear, without any doubt in my mind, as something pretty surprising. There is no possible comparison between burlesque female impersonators of the beginning of the century and the quite passable cabaret female impersonators from after the 50s (many of which were t-women and transitioned eventually), and the more you go forward in time, the more striking it is of course.

Now is there really a link between all these facts? How the hell could I possibly know?! I’m simply taking notes of all of these elements and bringing them together. This to me, seem to make sense from an outside perspective (I repeat that I’m of course not a biologist). Everything seem to point in a direction which is that of a certain feminization of males, especially in the industrialized countries, and a greater number of cases of intersexuation (I’m including here transsexualism). The biological data seem to corroborate my personal, subjective impressions on the subject, and I’m in fact very surprised no one has ever put these elements together the way I do here.
You might not yet find any of this “scientifically” satisfactory, MacShreach, and you can keep on arguing endlessly if you want. But I think still calling it nonsense would be dishonest on your part. You have data as “scientific” as they can possibly be under the circumstances.

[babewonder]

me too

[dderek123]

I blame Glam Rock! :shrug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs4v-zexx8M

[natina]

we are getting BACK ON POINT


The Tranny Chaser Chaser

Gay guys who like straight guys who like guys dressed as girls



I’m no stranger to the walk of shame, but this is the first morning I’ve ridden the R train into Manhattan with metallic blue eye shadow smeared across the upper third of my face like a sloppy Warhol silkscreen. I’ve spent the prior evening at a bacchanal called Eden Underground: a sex party for transsexuals and their admirers in Park Slope (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Park+Slope/) that just rang in its one-year anniversary. What brought me to the polymorphously perverse bi-monthly Friday night was a search for gender identity’s Yeti: gay men attracted to the straight men who are attracted to transsexuals—the tranny chaser chaser.
http://media.villagevoice.com/the-tranny-chaser-chaser.6694416.40.jpg (http://www.villagevoice.com/photoGallery/index/2640994/0)
COJO ArtJuggernaut
At one sex party, things get confusing.




The Bronx (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/The+Bronx/)
Michael Wakefield (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Michael+Wakefield/)
Jose Munoz (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Jose+Munoz/)
Transgenderism and Transsexualism (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Transgenderism+and+Transsexualism/)
LGBT Issues (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/LGBT+Issues/)
At the party, plenty of hot, blue-collar trade search for transsexuals. Those gay men who cross-dress solely to chase these guys are called everything from “deceitful” to “blackface,” but “midlife crisis” probably comes closest. They are going after what they can’t have—dressed as men, anyway. Sweetie, Eden’s large-and-in-charge mistress of ceremonies, sums it up as cruising for men they “could never get wearing a pair of jeans on a Saturday night.”


José Muñoz (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Jose+Munoz/), an NYU-based academic who writes extensively on gender, asks, “So they’re gay men who turn to drag to get straight-acting or butch guys?” adding, “It fits into so many fantasies of the predatory homosexual out to prey on nominally straight men.” Muñoz mentions those turn-of-the-century, New York sexual superstars along the Bowery called “fairies” that George Chauncey (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/George+Chauncey/) details in Gay New York. Many heterosexual men “alternated between male and female sexual partners,” Chauncey writes, but the fairies, those willing to oblige these working-class men, “simply offered to perform certain sexual acts, especially fellation, which many straight men enjoyed but many women (even many prostitutes) were loath to perform.”

The first thing to get one’s head around is that most of the tranny chasers themselves are straight. Bruce (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Folks+Bruce/), a 42-year-old truck driver and Eden attendee, demonstrates his macho bona fides by opening a beer bottle with his teeth. “I’m from Long Island (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Long+Island/),” he jokingly explains of his countrified ways. “We didn’t have can openers in the woods.”

Folks like Bruce make headlines when they have famous names like Eddie Murphy (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Eddie+Murphy/) or (according to transgender prostitute Toni Newman (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Toni+Newman/)) L.L. Cool J. (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/LL+Cool+J/) Soccer star Cristiano Ronaldo (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Cristiano+Ronaldo/) was reportedly caught with three transgender prostitutes. Even Matt Lauer (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Matt+Lauer/) and Gavin Rossdale (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Gavin+Rossdale/), Gwen Stefani (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Gwen+Stefani/)’s husband, have allegedly taken walks on the wild side. Married New York GOP ex-Congressman Christopher Lee (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Chris+Lee+(Politician)/) resigned after Gawker published a Craigslist (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Craigslist+Inc./) ad featuring a shirtless photo of him with the headline “Sexy Classy guy for passable TS/CD – m4t – 39 (Cap Hill)”: That’s “TS,” as in transsexual; “CD,” meaning cross-dressing; and “m4t,” male-for-transsexual.

At first blush, the codified nature of the party evokes a parochial high school prom more than a sex party. In the AstroTurfed changing area just off the entrance, a sign prohibits touching without asking permission first. Not that the reminder is necessary for Eden Underground’s attendees, who prefer to engage in “mini-dates” before walking off arm-in-arm to a quiet corner to get it on.
In the front room, where most of the socializing takes place, a leggy transsexual in tight satin pleated shorts crosses the room while Lil’ Kim’s “How Many Licks?” is playing, catches a stripper’s pole with her arm, spins to the ground, and suggestively raises and lowers her high heel. A young stud bounds up from his seat and opens his shirt to display an overly tattooed torso. She nods approvingly, runs a gloved hand over his toned abs, and they wander off together.

There’s nothing overtly gay about this party: Even oral sex is sheathed in condoms, and the industrial stench of poppers is absent. Michael Wakefield (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Michael+Wakefield/), who lives upstairs and runs the space, often attends as his alter ego, Pickles. “Some of these guys are bisexual,” Wakefield says of the trans admirers, “but most are straight-identified and the straight-identified ones are definitely not part of the queer community.” Even so, “These are all chicks with dicks,” he hastens to add. “That’s what the guys are there for. If they want a girl with a vagina, they’ll get a girl.”
Elden, a straight attendee, agrees. “Pre-op transsexuals—what are there?” he rhetorically asks. “Three of them?” We’re talking outside, where I’m back in male attire (except for that eye make-up). If I were still in drag, he assures me, he’d most definitely fuck me. So why is he willing to fuck a gay man in drag, but not any of the men he identified as gay back in the party? And why do the gay guys lusting after guys like Elden get cold feet about doing what would attract this straight trade in the first place—dressing as a woman?
“Most gay guys are really drag-phobic,” Wakefield points out. “So a lot of them don’t even see it as an option. They just won’t come back. I had a friend who came to the party as a gay guy and got no action because the focus is on the trannies.”



http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/
http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/
http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/
http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/


I found this year old Village Voice article fascinating.

Gay guys in lust for straight guy will go as far as dressing in drag to trap tranny chasers. Apparently not all gay guys like dressing in drag but are willing to try that route to snag a straight guy.

The other interesting thing is the mention about regular straight guys who would never be with another guy, going gaga over trannies. Make someone feminine enough and even "thick neck Guidos with the horse cocks" will screw a transformed guy.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/

[Saint_Frankenstein]

Yes, it does happen. There's a lot of straight men who will fuck a guy or get blown by one as long as he's fem enough. This is pretty common and goes back a long time, actually.

Psychologically speaking, I think it has to do with the domination aspect that seems inherent in the social construct of Western male heterosexuality.

[Saint_Frankenstein]

There's really nothing new about highly androgynous males. It's just that it's becoming more acceptable in the West and the fashion world has latched onto it. It's just an example of changing trends. It goes back for thousands of years.

Personally, I love androgyny. I think it's beautiful when a person blurs the gender boundaries such that they're neither really male nor female.

[danthepoetman]

Not sure, Saint-Frank. I was talking a couple of weeks back to a biologist who's studying the effects of xenoestrogens on fish population in a river in France. What he told me went quite well along the line I was drawing on my last post. All of this is highly subjective of course, but try to google the picture history of female impersonators; impersonators from the past are not even remotely on the same level as some of the guys modeling as female today... And there is this unavoidable fact, more and more studied by biologist, of the real decrease in sperm count all around the world. Of course, there is still some debates about that too -isn't there about anything? But the data add up. Just read my stuff and add things up for yourself...
And of course, I know there's always been biological variation. It's the very principle of evolution. But this all goes beyond that...

[Saint_Frankenstein]

Not sure, Saint-Frank. I was talking a couple of weeks back to a biologist who's studying the effects of xenoestrogens on fish population in a river in France. What he told me went quite well along the line I was drawing on my last post. All of this is highly subjective of course, but try to google the picture history of female impersonators; impersonators from the past are not even remotely on the same level as some of the guys modeling as female today... And there is this unavoidable fact, more and more studied by biologist, of the real decrease in sperm count all around the world. Of course, there is still some debates about that too -isn't there about anything? But the data add up. Just read my stuff and add things up for yourself...
And of course, I know there's always been biological variation. It's the very principle of evolution. But this all goes beyond that...

I know what you're talking about. I just don't know. I just look at history and androgynes are found all over the place. They were once highly respected as priests/priestesses in ancient cultures. So I really can't say that there's an increase in it. It might just seem so odd to our culture since it was driven underground for so long since the binary gender system was socially enforced for centuries, which included a harsh dichotomy between males and females, which was most popular in the 19th and 20th centuries. It seems that our cultural beliefs about masculinity are both old and new.

For example, if you look at the Greco-Roman world, there was a pretty big subset of gender variant males with their own socially permitted roles in society. But then gender variance was still made the butt of jokes and guys were encouraged to be "real" masculine men. Male femininity was allowed to an extent, but still looked down on. This extended to their social mores about sexuality. To the Greeks and Romans, it was fine for a male citizen to fuck another man in the ass or get a blowjob from him as long as the guy on the receiving end was not a member of his social class. To be penetrated was to be viewed as giving up your manhood and it was ridiculed. This same mentality still underlies modern Western and Middle Eastern views of male sexuality.

Even during the Christian era, views of gender were more complex then we would think. There are many canonized Saints, for example, who were cross dressers or otherwise gender benders and got along quite fine in the Christian community, with even females becoming monks. (Yes, it seems that the Vatican has forgotten its own very queer accepting history and has gone along with ignorant modern cultural revisionism.) So it seems that this harsh binary view of males and females really is more of a recent cultural thing that really came into the fore in the '50s.

[danthepoetman]

I'll try to write a whole thing about this. I profoundly, strongly think that transexuality is biological. I'll try to give more stuff later...

[MacShreach]

I know what you're talking about. I just don't know. I just look at history and androgynes are found all over the place. They were once highly respected as priests/priestesses in ancient cultures. So I really can't say that there's an increase in it. It might just seem so odd to our culture since it was driven underground for so long since the binary gender system was socially enforced for centuries, which included a harsh dichotomy between males and females, which was most popular in the 19th and 20th centuries. It seems that our cultural beliefs about masculinity are both old and new.

For example, if you look at the Greco-Roman world, there was a pretty big subset of gender variant males with their own socially permitted roles in society. But then gender variance was still made the butt of jokes and guys were encouraged to be "real" masculine men. Male femininity was allowed to an extent, but still looked down on. This extended to their social mores about sexuality. To the Greeks and Romans, it was fine for a male citizen to fuck another man in the ass or get a blowjob from him as long as the guy on the receiving end was not a member of his social class. To be penetrated was to be viewed as giving up your manhood and it was ridiculed. This same mentality still underlies modern Western and Middle Eastern views of male sexuality.

Even during the Christian era, views of gender were more complex then we would think. There are many canonized Saints, for example, who were cross dressers or otherwise gender benders and got along quite fine in the Christian community, with even females becoming monks. (Yes, it seems that the Vatican has forgotten its own very queer accepting history and has gone along with ignorant modern cultural revisionism.) So it seems that this harsh binary view of males and females really is more of a recent cultural thing that really came into the fore in the '50s.

Yeah. The science is weak because 1) there's very little interest or funding for research in this area, 2) when people do stick their heads above the parapet, they get them shot off. The whole Blanchard/Bailey row has really discouraged any further investigation for a decade now.

Furthermore, because the apparent incidence of the expression of a particular syndrome may be increasing, that DOES NOT mean that the total number is increasing, because there will always be a population which suppresses their urges, and one which expresses them. We absolutely do know that many TG/TS people suppress their natures, some for their whole lives, but we have no way of accounting for this.

The total underlying rate, therefore, is the sum of both those who suppress and those who express, and it would be this rate that would be affected by any innate biological cause; however we have no idea whatsoever of what that rate is.

To make matters more confused, the ratio between suppression/expression appears to be governed by the culture the phenomenon is appearing in, and there is strong supporting evidence for this.

For instance, there is a clear relationship between a reduction of the social prejudice (and violence) against transgender and an increase in the apparent incidence (ie, people who are openly TG/TS).What this means is that even if there were a biological cause, socio-cultural influences are strong enough to mask its expression; nature is modified by nurture, if you like.

Furthermore, there is NO statistical base to work from, other than that done by Lynn Conway, which does not give any kind of historical timeline, just a reasonable estimate of incidence in ONE country, the US, at the time she did her research, and furthermore, while her method is convincing, her results have been widely challenged. (A similar exercise in the UK did produce similar results; however, the lack of control data means this could simply be a function of the method.)

Anyone suggesting that the underlying rates of TS/TG (that is the total of both those who suppress and those who express) are increasing, is going to have to come up with solid, hard statistical data to demonstrate that they actually are and also zero-out the cultural influences. There is just no work, anywhere, that would be of any help here and without that, anyone arguing the toss is just shooting the breeze.

You cannot say TS/TG is on the increase, when you do not know either what the actual statistical incidence is now or what it was in the past, in other words. It's all pure conjecture.

[Queens Guy]

How many of the 'Pretend TV/CDs' are Tops, or Vers?

Many of the TG ladies on this forum say they don't enjoy topping. They only do it to pay the bills. They feel like women where it counts, on the inside.

However these TVs are only 'Pretend' TVs. They don't identify as women, in any way, and don't dress for the reason actual TVs dress.

Since a lot of guys at this forum are interested in being topped, finding a passable 'pretend' TV, who enjoys using her penis, might be the solution to the problem.

What if NYC had a Top/Verse only party every once in a while? Would there be enough ladies, and not 'pretend' tops to make the night worthwhile?