Another shooting!

[Willie Escalade]

Posting it here before it hits the Politics section...

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8785128

Not much info because it just happened (as I type this at 7:11am LA time)...

:ignore:

[flabbybody]

It appears that injured bystanders in front of Empire State Building were all hit with LE gun fire. They'll be a million questions as to why police opened fire at perp in such a densely populated area

watch how NYPD becomes the bad guy in this

[irvin66]

Oh my god now again...:confused:

[TSMichelleAustin]

Yep, people called me this morning cuz I am in NYC to make sure I wasnt out!!! I didnt respond cuz I was still in bed that they started calling freaked out! LOL

[Wendy Summers]

Yep, people called me this morning cuz I am in NYC to make sure I wasnt out!!! I didnt respond cuz I was still in bed that they started calling freaked out! LOL

They should have known not to worry... no way in hell is a pornstar up that early. :dancing:

[GroobySteven]

If guns were a religion, they'd be banned.

[housekeeper]

Too close for comfort, anything could happen anywhere at any time, be alert when you're on the streets.

[brickcitybrother]

This is just more confirmation of the randomness of life... and death.

[ed_jaxon]

Last night 19 people were shot in Chicago with 8 hit in one drive by about 2 miles from my gig.

[georgiaguy]

There is all kinds of conflicting reports, but the latest ones sound like most of the innocent people were shot by the cops.

[georgiaguy]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/person-killed-shooting-empire-state-building-morning-rush-article-1.1143522?pgno=1

[maxpower]

If guns were a religion, they'd be banned.


Guns are a religion to many people.

[giovanni_hotel]

All the innocent victims except the boss shot by the disgruntled employee were hit by the crossfire from cops firing. Unbelievable. They're supposed to be the professionals.

[scroller]

All the innocent victims except the boss shot by the disgruntled employee were hit by the crossfire from cops firing. Unbelievable. They're supposed to be the professionals.

The media I've seen seems to be doing it's usual furious tap-dancing to make that unclear and ambiguous.

[Silcc69]

Where is the NRA at?

Here is some of the footage

Graphic video shows police killing ESB gunman - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_hH1KWJ1BA&feature=player_embedded)

[trish]

All the innocent victims except the boss shot by the disgruntled employee were hit by the crossfire from cops firing. Unbelievable. They're supposed to be the professionals.Indeed, they ARE professionals. They're trained in safety, accuracy and staying cool in heated situations. Imagine how many bystanders would've been felled if the entire populace were armed!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/opinion/collins-arms-and-the-duck.html?smid=pl-share

[onmyknees]

Indeed, they ARE professionals. They're trained in safety, accuracy and staying cool in heated situations. Imagine how many bystanders would've been felled if the entire populace were armed!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/opinion/collins-arms-and-the-duck.html?smid=pl-share

You're playing us with sarcasim...right? I'm frankly shocked (not) that Gail Collins could figure out a way to weave Paul Ryan into this. Sound familiar ( Tuscon) ? If she's fearful of the permissive gun laws in Wisconsin, she should stay right in the gun free zones of NYC, Chicago, Washington and Boston ( legal gun free zones, that is). All this praise of the police as professional marksmen... Is this what you were saying about Sean Bell, Ramarley Graham, Amadou Diallo or the dozens of other incidents where cops filled the air with errant lead?

[trish]

Yes, I do remember Tuscon. I remember the unarmed, wounded older woman who wrestled the weapon away from the shooter. I remember the armed bystander stepping outside, not having seen the action but heard the shooting and confusion. Confused himself, he nevertheless took aim at the brave lady with the gun and would've shot had he not been stopped by the unarmed citizens around him.

[flabbybody]

All the innocent victims except the boss shot by the disgruntled employee were hit by the crossfire from cops firing. Unbelievable. They're supposed to be the professionals.
Alternative way this event could have turned out: The panicked shooter randomly empties his firearm into a crowded 5th avenue sidewalk and kills dozens of civilians.
But that didn't happen. Instead, 16 police bullets fired by two cops put him down with zero civilian fatalities. The two police officers had never before fired their weapons in the line of duty, a total of 15 years of service between them. Exactly what higher level of professionalism do you deem appropriate?

[bobvela]

Imagine how many bystanders would've been felled if the entire populace were armed!

Yes... because every time it becomes easier for people the legally cary a gun (note the killer her was doing so illegally, obviously that prohibition didn't stop him (nor that about murder))... we see a massive increase in shootings and deaths... in fact... we see just the opposite.

Why let Amazon.com: More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics) (9780226493633): John R. Lott Jr.: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71SEX9M3R9L.@@AMEPARAM@@71SEX9M3R9L (http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636) get in the way of your bigotry?

Obviously there are just too many legal people carrying guns in Chicago... where Friday night 19 people were shot (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-24/news/chi-shootings-chicago-violence-august-23-august-24-violence-gunfire-20120823_1_overnight-shootings-englewood-neighborhood-people-shot). What’s that? It's rather difficult (damn near impossible) to get a handgun and legally carry it in Chicago (just like NYC)?... obviously their very strict gun control is working! I mean... if they allowed people to more easily legally carry, no doubt tens of thousands would be shot every day! (see, I can make up theoreticals as well).

[bobvela]

Yes, I do remember Tuscon. I remember the unarmed, wounded older woman who wrestled the weapon away from the shooter. I remember the armed bystander stepping outside, not having seen the action but heard the shooting and confusion. Confused himself, he nevertheless took aim at the brave lady with the gun and would've shot had he not been stopped by the unarmed citizens around him.

Do you want to go down that road? You know... grasping for straws where unarmed people happen to overpower a shooter?

I'd be happy to play... because for each, I can/will show a case where a (legally) armed person took down an attacker.

Case in point... Utah (a place which I believe has laws against stabbing people (even in malls)) where a man (despite the laws saying he couldn't) decided to buy a knife (obviously we need knife control!) and stab a few people... before being stopped by a person legally carrying a gun (http://rubinoworld.com/2012/07/27/gun-carrying-man-ends-stabbing-spree-at-salt-lake-grocery-store/).

The Batman shooter wasn't taken down by unarmed civilaisn (and being armed in a Regal cinima is against their policy.

The Fort Hood shooter wasn't taken down by unarmed persons, but by armed police.

The VT Tech shooting only ended when the shooter killed himself.

I could go on... but I think my point is made.

[georgiaguy]

The two police officers had never before fired their weapons in the line of duty, a total of 15 years of service between them. Exactly what higher level of professionalism do you deem appropriate? Perhaps a level of "professional" proficiency that would not require them to shoot 9 people in order to strike one person 40' away from them. I can't believe anyone is defending the cops shooting all those people. I guess if the cops had been driving a car it would have been OK to run over those people if they had been standing on the sidewalk next to the shooter in order for them to run him down.

[trish]

The Batman shooter wasn't taken down by unarmed civilaisn (and being armed in a Regal cinima is against their policy.Can you imagine the carnage if the entire theater were armed and shooting in the dark at a man covered from head to toe in armor?


The VT Tech shooting only ended when the shooter killed himself. Can you imagine the carnage if the entire auditorium were armed with college age bravados shooting in the semi-dark?


The Fort Hood shooter wasn't taken down by unarmed persons, but by armed police.Show me were I claimed police shouldn't be armed.

You point remains unestablished.

[onmyknees]

Yes, I do remember Tuscon. I remember the unarmed, wounded older woman who wrestled the weapon away from the shooter. I remember the armed bystander stepping outside, not having seen the action but heard the shooting and confusion. Confused himself, he nevertheless took aim at the brave lady with the gun and would've shot had he not been stopped by the unarmed citizens around him.

I was referring to what happened in the wake of the shooting on these boards, and the outrageous attempt to blame everyone except the sick fuck who pulled the trigger.


Look...it's almost as predictable as the changing of the seasons. A deranged individual gets his hands on a firearm, causes horrific carnage, then almost before the dead are buried, upper west side east coast wasps try to use the horror for a political agenda casting a wide net attempting to blame everyone they have a political grudge with. It's nearly as disgusting as the incident itself. To continue to use these incidents to further an agenda is a colossal waste of time and completely transparent. There isn't the political will and there won't be any time soon. One party won't, and one party won't dare.....so why go through these useless exercises unless the intent is to exploit the incident.....never letting a crisis go to waste ?

I'm not suggesting arming everyone....that's as insane and as impractical
as disarming everyone.

[Prospero]

OMK's posts are as full of insult and cheap innuendo as ever . As always, never examine the deeper issues so a real debate can take place. Pathetic.

The pro gun folk bend over backwards and will re-invent the wheel rather than admit that weapons in the hands of private citizens is a major cause of deaths and that their removal would reduce the number of deaths - from crime and from accidents like kids finding daddy's gun. That is is probably politically impossible is a tragedy.

[trish]

I was referring to what happened in the wake of the shooting on these boards, and the outrageous attempt to blame everyone except the sick fuck who pulled the trigger. I'm referring to the incident where an armed citizen almost killed the wounded woman who bravely disarmed the murderer with her bare hands.


it's almost as predictable as the changing of the seasons. A deranged individual gets his hands on a firearmpredictable and way to frequent. Proper regulation of firearms would reduce that frequency. You can buy firearms legally online without the hassle of background checks. Secret carry is legal in most states so no one can properly judge the risks around them. Because of these "useless" exercises (i.e. publicly examining critically the flaws and faults of our current gun policies) my State still does not allow secret carry. The exercise is therefore not quite so useless as you claim. If you actually thought otherwise you and the NRA wouldn't waste your time trying to divert the criticism.

(BTW shouldn't you be in Church right now learning what kind of weapon Jesus shoots in the big rifle range in the sky?)

[Prospero]

No way will OMK be joining Jesus. He is nowhere near enough to any real Christian values for that. He'll be going down below where he belongs (if any of that stuff actually were true).

[onmyknees]

I'm referring to the incident where an armed citizen almost killed the wounded woman who bravely disarmed the murderer with her bare hands.

predictable and way to frequent. Proper regulation of firearms would reduce that frequency. You can buy firearms legally online without the hassle of background checks. Secret carry is legal in most states so no one can properly judge the risks around them. Because of these "useless" exercises (i.e. publicly examining critically the flaws and faults of our current gun policies) my State still does not allow secret carry. The exercise is therefore not quite so useless as you claim. If you actually thought otherwise you and the NRA wouldn't waste your time trying to divert the criticism.

(BTW shouldn't you be in Church right now learning what kind of weapon Jesus shoots in the big rifle range in the sky?)


you're involved in self delusion and futility, but you seem to be most comfortable there, so by all means...hang out there for as long as you wish...if nothing else, you're entertaining.

"Proper" regulation...is that like what Chicago currently has? How come we don't see you or Gail Collins lamenting about the body count there? All the chronic hand wringing and hardly a word on Chicago. I guess you anti gun nuts chose your battles carefully...huh? And if you think tougher gum laws are going to happen in Albany anytime soon...please refer to the first sentence in this post.
Ya know....I missed church today, but god will forgive under the circumstances. I have a note from Wayne Laperrier on NRA stationary.

[giovanni_hotel]

Violent crime is at an alltime low in NYC and no one is allowed to carry a gun legally on the street except the PD. More legal carry guns DOES NOT equal less violent crime.

I appreciate the independent thinking on this issue, but also understand that there are those on the Right, specifically the NRA, who have a financial incentive to propagandize the utility of universal gun ownership.

[trish]

And if you think tougher gum laws are going to happen...I never ever supported tougher gum laws and I seriously doubt Albany would ever approve them. They do have fluoride in their water though. :D

[EvonRose]

Giovanni is right, NYC has one of the lowest crime rate now, due to the change the major made, it's not like the NYC we see int hat Jodie Foster movie where she was a hooker and Robert Deniro a crazy sex addict...

However this is why I believe in controlled or no gun law... FYI

[onmyknees]

The data clearly shows support for gun ownership is increasing....not decreasing. You can whine all you like about the NRA, but the reason they're successful is they represent a majority view, and the public is not convinced more restrictions would prevent these shootings. While there probably would be some agreement on tightening up the online sale of firearms, or magazine capacities, or the gun show loop holes, I don't believe for a second that's your ultimate goal.


October 26, 2011
Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

by Lydia Saad


PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/sgcossbzcei5hhmpeq0ryq.gif

The new result comes from Gallup's Oct. 6-9 Crime poll, which also finds public support for personal gun rights at a high-water mark (http://www.gallup.com/poll/150341/Record-Low-Favor-Handgun-Ban.aspx). Given this, the latest increase in self-reported gun ownership could reflect a change in Americans' comfort with publicly stating that they have a gun as much as it reflects a real uptick in gun ownership.
Republicans (including independents who lean Republican) are more likely than Democrats (including Democratic leaners) to say they have a gun in their household: 55% to 40%. While sizable, this partisan gap is narrower than that seen in recent years, as Democrats' self-reported gun ownership spiked to 40% this year.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/n-k9vdg170sylv4thxvfsw.gif

The percentage of women who report household gun ownership is also at a new high, now registering 43%.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/999z-mpdxusifn-unxc5pq.gif

Gun ownership is more common in the South (54%) and Midwest (51%) than in the East (36%) or West (43%) -- a finding typical of Gallup's trends in gun ownership by region.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/zvumamcapkcvqcxbn-xf4a.gif

[EvonRose]

If it is increasing then that figures the 3 major gun related news within what? 6 months

[trish]

And if you think tougher gum laws are going to happen...
While there probably would be some agreement on tightening up the online sale of firearms, or magazine capacities, or the gun show loop holes, I don't believe for a second that's your ultimate goal.No really. Gum laws are not on the agenda.

[onmyknees]

Violent crime is at an alltime low in NYC and no one is allowed to carry a gun legally on the street except the PD. More legal carry guns DOES NOT equal less violent crime.

I appreciate the independent thinking on this issue, but also understand that there are those on the Right, specifically the NRA, who have a financial incentive to propagandize the utility of universal gun ownership.

I think that's an oversimplification, with all due respect. What's your theory on DC, Chicago, Detroit, Philly and LA which have equally restrictive gun carry laws and crime rates are soaring?

Crime is a far more complex set of circumstances than set of gun laws can address. NYC cops will tell you stop and frisk has far more to do with lower crime rates than gun laws that have been on the books for many years, but some of the same people that are being kept safe by stop and frisk, oppose it. Go figure. Crime rates will spike, then recede based on other circumstances . I can go to almost any part of any borough in NYC and purchase an illegal handgun providing I have enough cash.

Economics, education, white flight, employment opportunities, illegal immigration, narcotics, and family structure all play a major role in gun crime rates.

[giovanni_hotel]

No really. Gum laws are not on the agenda.

Lol!:whistle:

[Silcc69]

Hey OMK where was the NRA when this went down? Had a fuckin permit and everything yet the NRA was never even seen with case. I wonder why probably cause she's not white.

http://moorbey.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/marissa-alexander-stood-her-ground-no-one-was-injured-or-murdered-she-faces-25-years-in-prison/

[fred41]

Hey OMK where was the NRA when this went down? Had a fuckin permit and everything yet the NRA was never even seen with case. I wonder why probably cause she's not white.

http://moorbey.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/marissa-alexander-stood-her-ground-no-one-was-injured-or-murdered-she-faces-25-years-in-prison/

Sounds like an overzealous prosecutor who has no clue what it's like to live in the real world.
http://thegrio.com/2012/05/15/angela-corey-lashes-out-at-critics-of-marissa-alexander-prosecution/#s:angela-corey-4x3-jpg

[Silcc69]

Sounds like an overzealous prosecutor who has no clue what it's like to live in the real world.
http://thegrio.com/2012/05/15/angela-corey-lashes-out-at-critics-of-marissa-alexander-prosecution/#s:angela-corey-4x3-jpg

True but again this right up the NRA's alley they they remained well silent on this issue.

[giovanni_hotel]

The NRA isn't a 'big tent' organization. I doubt their membership is prepared to vocally defend a Black woman who invoked the SYG law. They lose credibility by the day.

[irvin66]

I have lots of guns, but shooting at people is just sick!
Guns are okay when used in the right way and the way they are intended for, such as hunting or target shooting! :geek:

[GroobySteven]

The data clearly shows support for gun ownership is increasing....not decreasing. You can whine all you like about the NRA, but the reason they're successful is they represent a majority view,

It's far more likely that the money and business that supports gun ownership and the fact that those who support it are far more organized and zealous to be able to fund the NRA, is the main reason that the support is increasing, rather than some sort of general American consensus.
Even if this was the case, there are states where the majority could be seen to support Sharia Law - it doesn't mean it's right.

[Prospero]

Even if this was the case, there are states where the majority could be seen to support Sharia Law - it doesn't mean it's right.

Do you mean US states or Nations? I can't think of any US States or even cities where there'd be much support for Sharia.

[GroobySteven]

Do you mean US states or Nations? I can't think of any US States or even cities where there'd be much support for Sharia.


Hahaha - Nation States.

[bobvela]

Sorry for the delay in responding... mine is a job which can be at times quite demanding… the upside is that it is not only immensely rewarding (knowing how many people benifit from the fruits of my labors)... but also very profitable.


Can you imagine the carnage if the entire theater were armed and shooting in the dark at a man covered from head to toe in armor?

That's pretty limited thinking if you want to play the slippery slope argument... why not hypothesize "What if everyone in the theater had a bazooka? Just imagine the carnage!!!"

Granted... what you said is said by someone who underestimates the effect of 'armor'... I'll tell you a little secret... if you were wearing the best currently avalible body armor over your body (that you could still freely move in (ie the sort that doesn't make you look line a linebacker who is wearing a refrigerator), but also assumes that said shooter happend to buy such a thing (do note that even what most police wear is mostly crap)) and were shot once or twice... you wouldn't be easily able to return fire.

Most people shot while wearing a 'bullet proof' vest suffer broken ribs or other brusing which hurt like hell. The point of a 'bullet proof' vest or in your words 'head to toe armor' is not to deflect and make a wearer immune to every shot that might come their way... but to keep the wearer alive after a shot or two... at a minimum... and that in a best case sinario.


Can you imagine the carnage if the entire auditorium were armed with college age bravados shooting in the semi-dark?

Again... your imagination is limited... why not say "What if everyone was armed with a nuclear device!"... and yet... no one is arguing for EVERYONE to be armed... instead, they desire that the right of those who choose to be not be taken away.

Remind me... are the same sex marriage propoents demanding that EVERYONE be married to someone of the same sex? What if they are already married? What if they are heterosexual? What if they do not want to be married... ever?

See the redicliousness yet? That is EXACTLY the sort of logic you are arguing for.


Show me were I claimed police shouldn't be armed.

Again you grasp for straws... I said no such thing... or would you like to point to where I did? Granted... this is a favorite argument point of yours, ala: "Nyeh, I know I'm wrong/loosing, but am going to acuse you of something in the hopes that I can change the subject, so... I think you like to rape goats, prove me wrong, nyeh!"

My point was and continues to be... you cannot rely on the police to protect you from bad people... alas not even armed police could prevent 19 people being shot Saturday night alone in Chicago (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-24/news/chi-shootings-chicago-violence-august-23-august-24-violence-gunfire-20120823_1_overnight-shootings-englewood-neighborhood-people-shot) (shall I go search for the time since?)


You point remains unestablished.

My point remains unestablished much the same way someone sitting next to Sir Issac Newton under the apple tree might have said "Meh, apples fall every day, it's just God's way of punishing you for having long hair!"

... or... the other man (like you) is incapible of rational thought... granted, we've already established that with regards to you.

[danthepoetman]

I have lots of guns, but shooting at people is just sick!
Guns are okay when used in the right way and the way they are intended for, such as hunting or target shooting! :geek:

"A handgun is a device specifically designed to make holes in human beings"
Kurt Vonnegut, Breakfast of Champions

Irvin, I know Vonnegut said many weird things in his days, and I know this is from a novel, but hey! it’s not without making some sense in it's own weird way, isn't it? :)
Here are a few more quotes from the guy…

"That there are such devices as firearms, as easy to operate as cigarette lighters and as cheap as toasters, capable at anybody's whim of killing Father or Fats or Abraham Lincoln or John Lennon or Martin Luther King, Jr., or a woman pushing a baby carriage, should be proof enough for anybody that being alive is a crock of shit."

"If you want to take my guns away from me, and you’re all for murdering fetuses, and love it when homosexuals marry each other, and want to give them kitchen appliances at their showers, and you’re for the poor, you’re a liberal. If you are against those perversions and for the rich, you’re a conservative. What could be simpler?"

[Prospero]

well said Dan

[SammiValentine]

wot wot rudeboi gonna murk you blud, wanna start sumthin ??

my intelligent contribution. knives are bad, mmmmkay.

[Willie Escalade]

An now to New Jersey...

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jersey&id=8793473

Maybe the world is coming to an end after all...

[Wendy Summers]

An now to New Jersey...

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jersey&id=8793473

Maybe the world is coming to an end after all...

The conspiracy theorists are speculating this is all part of a government plot to force new gun control laws.

I just think the election and all the bullshit around it is driving folks batshit crazy.

[Prospero]

I have lots of guns, but shooting at people is just sick!
Guns are okay when used in the right way and the way they are intended for, such as hunting or target shooting! :geek:

is this code for going on a shooting spree at a well known American chain?