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DJ_Asia
03-14-2006, 08:21 PM
MURDER OF TRANSEXUAL IN PORTUGAL AND THE ON-GOING ATTEMPT TO SILENCE IT:
URGENT APPEAL TO INTERNATIONAL ACTION!
VIGIL FOR GISBERTA IN LISBON

Gisberta was tortured and sexually abused for days and then brutally murdered. The media have distorted her life story and have refused to show a photograph of her face. We can't allow her face, nor the nature of this crime, to be so easily forgotten as if it were an everyday occurrence.

She was a homeless, transsexual, HIV-positive, immigrant drug-abuser and sex-worker who was killed by young men and boys from a residence facility for at-risk youth. The nature of Gisberta's vulnerabilities and the so-called system of protection of minors in Portugal bring fully to light the pervasive marginalization and longstanding discriminatory attitudes that characterize Portuguese society.

A simple reaction of lowering the age of criminal liability is nothing more than the government washing its hands of the issue. Let the government take on the responsibility for at-risk youth that it has so far refused, instead of abandoning them to religious institutions and the inferior guidance they receive there. And let the government prosecute those who are of legal age. But this hideous crime should not be minimized by focusing arguments just on the age of the perpetrators.

VIGIL FOR GISBERTA

In Front of the Lisbon Diocese

Campo de Santa Clara

Thursday March 9th at 7:00 p.m.

TO DIGNIFY THE MEMORY OF THE DECEASED

TO DEMAND A TOTAL REFORM OF THE SYSTEM OF PROTECTION AND WELFARE OF AT-RISK YOUTH

TO DEMAND COMPREHENSIVE LEGISLATION AGAINST HATE CRIME AND THE PREJUDICE ASSOCIATED WITH IT

First supports of the initiative:

* The Pink Panthers--Movement to Fight Homophobia

* aT. - Association for the Study and Defense of Gender Identity Rights

* International Union of Sex Workers (headquartered in London, UK)

* SOS Racism

* Association Embrace

* Brazil House

* Associação naoteprives - Group for Defense of Sexual Rights
* PortugalGay.PT
* UMAR (União Mulheres Alternativa e Resposta)
* ILGA-EUROPE (International Lesbian and Gay Association - Europa)
* TRANSX (Austrian TransGender Association)
* Maria José Campos (Doctor)
* José Luís Peixoto (Writer)
* Anabela Rocha (Queer Activist)
* Gill Crystina Dalton (TENI - Trans Support Ireland)

THE APPEAL

Towards a terrible murder that more and more is becoming a hate crime, towards the biased omition of the sexual and transphobic component of the crime, towards the confused reaction of most LGBT Portuguese associations that contributed to the huge amount of mediatic confusion and misinformation, because they weren't able to inform correctly about the victim's identity nor about the difference between homophobia and transphobia, towards the openly mediatic and political attempt of minimisation of the crime, of the omition of the "hate" component in the death of a person, who accumulated so many social exclusions, towards the attempt to blame the victim, and the public "silencing" of this case, we appeal to the urgent support of all LGBT collectives and entities all over the world:

- to denounce as widely as you can the facts occurred in Portugal, specially in the movements and national and international media;

- to protest – with knowledge to the Portuguese LGBT associations– near the Portuguese Government, official entities, political parties and media because the way they are dealing with this case (the contacts are in the end of this message). The model letter, also in the end of this message, can be used to do it;

- to manifest near this same entities and Portuguese LGBT movement your solidarity with the efforts made to change this dramatic situation.

- WE FIND IT FUNDAMENTAL, AT THIS POINT, A STRONG INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE OVER PORTUGAL.

ABOUT THE FACTS

Gisberta, a homeless Brazilian transsexual immigrant, who was HIV positive, had drug problems, and was a sex-worker, was found dead on the 22nd of February inside a pit 10 metres deep, in an unfinished building in Porto, the second biggest Portuguese city. The crime was confessed to by a group of 14 boys, between the ages of 10 and 16 years old, most of whom came from a child protection institution belonging to the Catholic Church, although financed by the state.

From this confession, details of the dreadful act have become known. The victim had a deeply fragile health condition, and these boys, frequently harassed, insulted, and chased her. On the 19th, a group of these boys entered the unfinished and abandoned building where Gisberta was staying, tied her up, gagged and assaulted her with extreme violence, kicking her, and beating her up with sticks and stones. The group also confessed to having introduced sticks in to Gisberta's anus, whose body presented great injuries, and have abandoned her at the scene. Her body presents also cigarette-burning marks.

On the 20th and 21st, they have returned to the scene and repeated the aggressions. By dawn, from the 21st to 22nd, they finally threw her in to the pit, attempting to hide the crime. The autopsy will clarify if she was still alive. Since her body was not floating, yet submerged in the bottom of the pit, indicates that she died drowned.

ABOUT THE REACTIONS AND THE GENERAL TRANSPHOBIA

This case was widely spread by the Portuguese media on the 23rd and 24th in a biased and erroneous way. While some of the Portuguese media mentioned the murder of a "transvestite", most of them mentioned only her "homeless", or "homeless, sex worker, drug addict " condition. Gisberta was, also in some media, called Gisberto, her (masculine) legal name. According with this omission, and even before any details about the murder or about the identity and personal characteristics of the victim were known, many newspapers, in opinion columns, printed articles from opinion-makers (already known in Portugal for their personal opposition to LGBT rights), defendind that this couldn't be considered as a "hate crime", and that it wouldn't be legitim to consider any connection with Gisberta's transsexuality among the motivations to the crime. Usually, the arguments were around the under age of most of the aggressors.

At the same time were, and still are, ignored by the media the press releases of the Portuguese LGBT associations, including the Panteras Rosa and the trans association (@t), clarifying the "transsexuality" and victims identity, demanding legal and social measures against discriminations and protection against hate crimes motivated by gender identity, sexual orientation, social condition, disease or national origin, though it was vaguely mentioned a solidarity vigilance (a citizen's initiative supported by the LGBT associations) in the 24th evening, but, once again, the media ignored the arguments of the associations, asking the transsexuality of the victim to be mentioned, as well as the transphobia discrimination as one of probable crime motivations.

Avoiding mentioning "hate crime" with the argument of the under age of the aggressors, with the exception of a few politicians that expressed their personal opinion, no Portuguese political party gave any declaration nor condemned this crime. From the Government, the only reaction came from the minister responsible for this under age institutions, that simply stated "the feeling of shock", without any more words or comments, and demanded an inquiry to the institution where the aggressors were. These, with the exception of a 16 year boy, already criminally responsible and who is already in preventive imprisonment, were sent back to the institution and are in a semi-liberty regime. None other measure is know to be taken towards the aggressors. Psychological support for the 10 year old boys, for example?

No photo of the victim was printed in most newspapers. The media and the opinion-makers focused the "shock" of the crime in the under age of the aggressors, and not in the death of a citizen. They gave voice to insinuations of the responsible priest for the under age institution, that even said publicly that a boy from the institution was being "abused" by a paedophile, and this would be a "extenuating circumstance". These declarations did not lead to the publication of any reaction. Contrary to the current praxis, the data revealed on the 24th about the victim's sexual harassment, as well as the possibility of Gisberta was still alive when she thonwed at the pit, were only printed by an Oporto's newspaper. Only four days after the crime was denounced, the media silence about it is almost absolute, and seems likely to remain so.

Jó Bernardo

Sérgio Vitorino

Back

Press Release, Saturday, 25th February 2006
Panteras Rosa Movement – Combat front against homophobia

ªt – Study and defence of the rights to gender identity Association

Murder of Gisberta: Of crime, of hate, of the silencing in course, of our anger.

Probably thrown into the trench while still alive. Victim not only of aggression but also of sexual abuse. Day by day our indignation grows with the way that Gisberta's murder has been published, commented and attenuated. We think it is odd that today's television reports ignore the shocking information released by the Portuguese newspaper "Journal de Notícias": there is an obvious sexual component in this crime. Should it to be ignored that the victim was submitted to a particular kind of torture, like the insertion of objects in the anus?

The priest Lino Maia, president of the IPSS's Union, stated yesterday that the boys would have "attenuating circumstances", because of a presumed molestation from a paedophile to a colleague. In the presence of a murder, the church tries to blame the LGBT population, associating it once again to child molestation. This declaration only reinforces the conviction of discriminatory motivation. The priest tries to excuse the institution he runs and the boys he's responsible for: by saying that the they did "justice with their own hands" to respond to a presumed victim's non-related episode, he is precisely defining a hate crime.

"How was it possible?" asks yesterday's newspaper 'Público'. "How was it possible that it hasn't happened before?" we answer –Don't we know the child protection system is just the continuation of abandon and maltreatment? Don't we know of the violence and social exclusion and how it is promoted in Portugal? Don't we know of the discrimination towards homeless people, HIV positives, prostitutes, homosexuals, gypsies, immigrants, and especially transsexuals that even in the Gay community are highly excluded?

In 'Público' we may read "more likely an unconscious act than premeditated". What is unconscious and not premeditated in the transphobic insult and in four continuum days of aggression, extreme violence, torture and sexual abuse? Of throwing a body in a trench without checking if, it was still alive?

It is shameful that even today the media do not recognise the difference between a transsexual and a crossdresser, homophobia and transphobia, sexual orientation and gender identity. Journalists should put in serious question their professional conscience, their own preconceptions, the approaches by the media to the LGBT rights, with special incidence over the transsexual population, the more mocked, and disadvantaged and misunderstood in the media universe and society.

Part of the social communication only referred to Gisberta as a "homeless" person. It is not up to journalists – or anyone - to decide if it was the "homeless" feature – or another – that motivated this murder. Unfortunately, it is up to the prejudice. Gisberta accumulated multiple exclusion; none of them can be omitted. She was a transsexual and transphobia victim. More than enumerate these exclusions, for we still don't know much on what really happened, to omit some is to hide probable explanatory elements of this crime, without information that supports it, and it is a gross manipulation and reinforcement of discrimination.

It is outrageous the silence of the political parties, even with the predictable argument that it won't be wise to talk about "hate crime" with children involved. The issue is not to "criminalise" children of under age. The state should assume the responsibilities he never assumed in taking care of those that are "young". It should punish those in the age of being responsible. However, do not mix up "children" with "16 year-old youth" that know what killing means and - not forgetting the dramatic age from most of the group - do not attenuate the crime in itself and the prejudice in it. The feelings that generate hate are of the responsibility of adults and those who run the country.

We will not ask ourselves if children are capable of hating. Portuguese society hates, and it is in it that children grow. Anti-LGBT (and other) hate, especially transphobia, is a serious social problem that reproduces itself among generations. The real question is, and can only be, within the combat measures and prevention of the discrimination and inequalities in it's whole - in the LGBT specific case, in the recognition of social rights and equality and social legitimisation. Yes, this time "young" people committed the crime. However, the transphobic, homophobic aggressions in Portugal that have risen in the last couple of years, were not, and the invariable rule has been its silencing and forgetfulness.

How about the next crime? Will we wait for one committed by adults to stand up with a position? In addition, to aggravate the laws (not in function of age) to protect against crimes and discrimination based on social condition, disease, transphobia, homophobia, etc? To implement sexual education against prejudice in schools? To face the living hell that is the system of child (un)protection in this country? To invest in equality policies?

ªt. - Associação para o Estudo e Defesa do Direito à Identidade de Género (Association for the study and defense to the rigth to Gender Identity) * Trav. do Monte do Carmo,1 1200-276 Lisbon – Portugal * Tel. + 351 21 324 03 46 * Fax. + 351 21 324 03 47 * e-mail. a.trans@clix.pt * site. http://a-trans.planetaclix.pt

Contact: Jó Bernardo * jo_bernardo@clix.pt

Panteras Rosa – Frente de Combate à Homofobia (Pink Panthers –Combat Front Against Homophobia) * Apartado 1323 – 1009-001 Lisbon - Portugal * Panteras.Rosas@sapo.pt * www.panterasrosa.blogspot.com

Contact: Sérgio Vitorino * svitorino@gmail.com



Press Release Panteras Rosa - 1st March 2006
We find it very strange that yesterday's article in the newspaper Jornal Público indicated that "the cause of death of the transsexual woman Gisberta, beaten last week in the center of the city of Porto, has still not been determined. An autopsy, carried out by the Institute of Forensic Medicine of Porto, was inconclusive, not being able to establish if the victim died from violent aggression, from her poor state of health, or even possibly from drowning."

Something seems very wrong here, whether a mistake was made in writing the news article or the source of the information was not in fact the Institute of Forensic Medcine. The news article adds that the poor physical condition in which the victim was found contributed to the difficulty of verifying the cause of death.

We believe that it would be a simple matter to verify in the course of an autopsy--especially of a body found just one day after death--whether or not drowning was a factor, simply through the presence or absence of water in the lungs. The delay in answering such a simple question greatly disturbs us.

However, if the cause of death does not turn out to be drowning, it distrubs us just as much that the article cites one possible cause of death as "the fragile health of the victim," because such a finding would eliminate the actions of the young men as a direct cause of death, and this would completely alter the prosecutorial situation.

At this point the issue is simply this: would Gisberta be alive today, even in her precarious state of health, if it had not been for the actions of these young men?

We're not concerned with the ideas that what's most important now is punishment, or that the age of liability for criminal acts should be lowered. What is really important is to prevent and combat the social marginalization that allows such acts to occur, and to give legal protection to future victims of hate crimes. Still, we worry about learning the full truth of this matter. The autopsy result will govern the way the legal system will treat this death, and it's therefore vital that it be conducted with the utmost rigor. So, we are extremely concerned about the information published yesterday, in particular to know if it reflects actual statements of the Institute of Forensic Medicine, and we urge the media to clarify this point.

Panteras Rosa 1st March 2006



SUGGESTION OF PROTEST LETTER
We have just known that Gisberta, Brazilian immigrant, transsexual, HIV positive, drug user, sex worker and homeless, was found dead on the 22nd of February in an unfinished building in the city of Oporto, and that the crime was confessed by a group of 14 boys, aged from 10 to 16 years old, most of them coming from a child protection institution.

We were also informed that the victim had a deeply fragile health condition, and she was frequently chased by these boys, with insults and harassment. That on the 19th, a group of these boys entered the unfinished and abandoned building where Gisberta was staying, tied her up, gagged and assaulted her with extreme violence, kicking her, and beating her up with sticks and stones. That the group also confessed to have introduced sticks in to Gisberta's anus, whose body presented great injuries, and have abandoned her at the scene. That her body presents also cigarette burning marks. That on the 20th and 21st, they have returned to the scene and repeated the aggressions. That by dawn, from the 21st to 22nd, they finally threw her to the pit, attempting to hide the crime. That the autopsy will clarify if she was still alive, since her body was not floating, yet submerged in the bottom of the pit, indicates that she died drowned.

This case was widely spread by the Portuguese media on the 23rd and 24th in a biased and erroneous way. While some of the Portuguese media mentioned the murder of a "transvestite", most of them mentioned only her "homeless", or "homeless, sex worker, drug addict " condition. Gisberta was, also in some media, called Gisberto, her (masculine) legal name. According with this omission, and even before any details about the murder or about the identity and personal characteristics of the victim were knowed, many newspapers, in opinion columns, printed articles from opinion-makers (already known in Portugal for their personal opposition to LGBT rights), defendind that this couldn't be considered as a "hate crime", and that it wouldn't be legitim to consider any connection with Gisberta's transsexuality among the motivations to the crime. Usually, the arguments were around the under age of most aggressors.

We have also known that at the same time were, and still are, being ignored by the media the press releases of the Portuguese LGBT associations, including the Panteras Rosa and the trans association (@t), clarifying the "transsexuality" and victims identity, demanding legal and social measures against discriminations and protection against hate crimes motivated by gender identity, sexual orientation, social condition, disease or national origin, though it was vaguely mentioned a solidarity vigilance (a citizen's initiative supported by the LGBT associations) in the 24th evening, but, once again, the media ignored the arguments of the associations, asking the transsexuality of the victim to be mentioned, as well as the transphobic discrimination as one of probable crime motivations.

It becomes clear that, by avoiding mentioning "hate crime" with the argument of the under age of the aggressors, with the exception of a few politicians that expressed their personal opinion, no Portuguese political party as such took a stand nor condemned this crime. From the Government, the only reaction came from the minister responsible for this under age institutions, that simply stated "the feeling of shock", without any more words or comments, and demanded an inquiry to the institution where the aggressors were. These, with the exception of a 16 year boy, already criminally responsible and who is already in preventive imprisonment, were sent back to the institution and are in a semi-liberty regime. None other measure is known to be taken towards the aggressors. Psychological support for the 10 year old boys, for example?

- We find odd that no photo of the victim was printed in most newspapers. The media and the opinion-makers focused the "shock" of the crime in the under age of the aggressors, and not in the death of a citizen. They gave voice to insinuations of the responsible priest for the under age institution, that even said publicly that a boy from the institution was being "abused" by a paedophile, and this would be a "extenuating circumstance". These declarations did not lead to the publication of any reaction. Contrary to the current praxis, the data revealed on the 24th about the victim's sexual harassment, aswell the possibility of Gisberta being still alive when she was throwed at the pit, were only printed by an Oporto's newspaper. Only four days after the crime was denounced, a sudden media silence about it is almost absolute, and everything

- Uma situação de desrespeito pelos direitos humanos mais elementares, que não podemos qualificar apenas de inadmissível num país da União Europeia em pleno século XXI.

Facing a terrible murder that configures as a most likely hate crime, facing tendencious omitions of the sexual and transphobic component of the crime, facing an aparent mediatical and political attempt of devalorizing of the crime itself, facing the omition of the "hate" component in the death of a person that accumulated so many social exclusions, facing attempts to responsabilise the victim, and publicly silencing this case, we came this way to express:

- our complete solidarity with the victim and the Portuguese activists that are trying to clear the facts and honour the memory of Gisberta, and demanding prevention and combat measures against the discriminations, without excluding protective legislation against the transphobic, lesbophobic, homophobic and biphobic discrimination and violence;

- our demand of respect for the positions defended by the same activists and efectivation of the measures that they have been defending as urgent;

- Our complete incomprehension of the way the Portuguese political responsible and media are dealing with the crime, of the manipulation of the facts and the absence of adequate answers to the described situation.

- A situation that, being confirmed, represents a total disrespect for the most elementary human rights, that cannot be qualified only as unacceptable in a country of the European Union, XXI century.



CONTACTS FOR SENDING PROTESTS:
PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC belem@presidenciarepublica.pt

MINISTER'S COUNCIL PRESIDENCY write on-line at http://www.portugal.gov.pt/Portal/PT/Geral/Contactos (limit 4000 c.)

GOVERNMENT

Primeiro Ministro pm@pm.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado Adjunto do Primeiro-Ministro gseapm@pm.gov.pt | pm@pm.gov.pt
Ministro de Estado e da Administração Interna gabinete.ministro@mai.gov.pt | gseapm@pm.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado Adjunto e da Administração Local gseaal@seaal.gov.pt
Ministro de Estado e dos Negócios Estrangeiros ministro@mne.gov.pt
Ministro dos Assuntos Parlamentares map@map.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado da Juventude e do Desporto sejd@sejd.gov.pt
Ministro do Trabalho e da Solidariedade Social gmtss@mtss.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado da Segurança Social gabinete.sess@mtss.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado do Emprego e Formação Profissional gseef@mtss.gov.pt
Secretária de Estado Adjunta e da Reabilitação gabinete.sear@mtss.gov.pt
Ministra da Educação gme@me.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado Adjunto e da Educação se.adj-educacao@me.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado da Educação se.educacao@me.gov.pt
Ministro da Saúde gms@ms.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado da Saúde gses@ms.gov.pt
Ministra da Cultura gmc@mc.gov.pt
Secretário de Estado da Cultura gsec@mc.gov.pt
Governo civil porto info@govcivilporto.gov.pt

CATHOLIC CHURCH

Secretariado Diocesano de Pastoral Juvenil (SDPJ) juventude@patriarcado-lisboa.pt
Bispo Auxiliar do Porto domantoniocarrilho@diocese-porto.pt
Bispo Diocesano do Porto domarmindo@diocese-porto.pt

PARLIAMENT

GABINETE DO PRESIDENTE DA ASSEMBLEIA DA REPÚBLICA gabpar@ar.parlamento.pt

POLITICAL PARTIES - PARLAMENTARY GROUPS

GRUPO PARLAMENTAR DO PARTIDO SOCIALISTA gp_ps@ps.parlamento.pt
GRUPO PARLAMENTAR DO PARTIDO SOCIAL DEMOCRATA gp_psd@psd.parlamento.pt
GRUPO PARLAMENTAR DO PARTIDO COMUNISTA PORTUGUÊS gp_pcp@pcp.parlamento.pt
GRUPO PARLAMENTAR DO PARTIDO POPULAR gp_pp@pp.parlamento.pt
GRUPO PARLAMENTAR DO BLOCO DE ESQUERDA blocoar@ar.parlamento.pt
GRUPO PARLAMENTAR DO PARTIDO ECOLOGISTA "OS VERDES" PEV.correio@pev.parlamento.pt

LGBT COLLECTIVES

Associação Ursos de Portugal info@ursosdeportugal.org
ILGA Portugal ilga-portugal@ilga.org
Opus Gay anser@netcabo.pt
rede ex aequo rede@ex-aequo.web.pt
Clube Safo clubesafo@clubesafo.com
PortugalGay.PT info@portugalgay.pt
não te prives naoteprives@yahoo.com
Grupo Lilás revista_lilas@hotmail.com
Panteras Rosa Panteras.Rosas@sapo.pt
ªT. a.trans@clix.pt

PRESS E TV'S

Impresa ( Expresso, Visão) impresa@impresa.pt
Contacto para Imprensa Clix imprensa@co.clix.pt
Jornal Público publico@publico.pt
Jornal de Notícias noticias@jn.pt
Diário de Notícias - dnot@dn.pt
Rádio TSF - write on-line (small blue button at the left side - "fale connosco") - http://tsf.sapo.pt/online/primeira/default.asp
Correio da Manhã - direccao@correiomanha.pt ; reportagem@correiomanha.pt ; geral@correiomanha.pt ; geral@correiomanha.pt ; redaccao@correiomanha.pt
Agência LUSA - agencialusa@lusa.pt ; dinformacao@lusa.pt ; redaccao@lusa.pt ; nacional@lusa.pt
RTP - write on-line: http://www.rtp.pt/wportal/participe/formulario.php
TVI - write on-line (at the link for "direcção de informação - aqui"): http://www.tvi.iol.pt/artigo.php?id=373399#
SIC/ SIC-NOTÍCIAS contacto@siconline.pt ; atendimento@sic.pt

Ecstatic
03-14-2006, 08:44 PM
Thanks for posting this, DJ. Such hate crimes really disturb me: and remember, they don't only happen in other countries far away from wherever you call home. I know girls who have been beaten and abused right here in the US, in major cities, and it disgusts me. The more aware people in general become, perhaps we'll see a drop off in such hate crimes. I only hope so.

Hara_Juku Tgirl
03-14-2006, 09:21 PM
Thats another Sad lost to our community. I hope she gets some justice thru vigil protest againts her inhumane treatment! RIP.

~Kisses.

HTG

dabaldone
03-14-2006, 10:07 PM
Yes, It has been mentioned before but it deserves comment. I live in Michigan and there has been a number of murders of TS girls who work the streets. All of these cases remain open. It's a sad testimony of our criminal justice system that just because these "gurl" don't fit into societies norms, their killers go free and unpunished.
How can America call itself a tolerant society when rampant predudice and injustice continues to be par for the course. Hell, I'm 41 yrs old and still get pulled over for DWB (driving while black). It's time that we all stand up and demand justice for these women who society tends to treat as yesterday's garbage!! :soapbox

lolozack
03-14-2006, 11:18 PM
In my opinion, it's not a matter of punishment (something that always happens after), but rather a matter of prevention (something that should happen before). Note that dangerous people able of torturing and murdering should be put out of the society, till they are able to join back the community (I know it's diificult to define what are the conditions for a safe come back) Such awfull event should not be considered as possible or, even thinkable. It's the best way to eradicate such behavior. How this goal can be achieved is the main question, but it's no way a matter of justice. It should have more to do with education and how people get their way of life, consider others, understanding their similarities and their differencies, and so on.
I have seen a very disturbing post about GPS or other positionnning means that could replace jail sentences. Are we able to accept only preventing crimes without punishing them? It's the same question and, in my opinion, makes a lot of sense.

Donko
03-15-2006, 12:44 AM
FUCK off- think of the soldiers

chefmike
03-15-2006, 07:13 AM
FUCK off- think of the soldiers

donkey-you are proving yourself to be a bigger scumbag than ever by defiling this thread...boot this cretin!

Aedan
03-15-2006, 09:15 PM
FUCK off- think of the soldiers

donkey-you are proving yourself to be a bigger scumbag than ever by defiling this thread...boot this cretin!

sais who?? you are one of the biggest morons here. so called veteran..
veteran of what?? babykilling in Vietnam??
Coward.

December
03-15-2006, 10:05 PM
Donko, you Twit, Your joke fell flat, as in: Nobody is Laughing WITH YOU.
In fact, nobody is laughing AT you either-you're just annoying and a bit offensive. Kind of resembling a version of "Yourdaddy", a troll who got bounced a while back, (fair recently, IIRC) but with poorer grammatical skill.

Lolozac: the problem with "Prevention" is knowing who is going to offend. We can prevent some criminals from re-offending. the most obvious means of permanently preventing them being the Death Penalty-even if it's never carried out, the glacial pace of appeals will keep the prick from doing it again for several years, or Imprisonment. Letting the kind of ass-face that murders someone run loose (even supervised) just puts more innocent bystanders at risk. The world is too small to have a "Devil's Island" or effective banishment system. Violent murderers are like toxic waste-you wouldn't want someone putting drums of raw sewage next to your house, would you? Or Radioactive Waste... well, a person who goes out and (on their own hook) tortures someone to death is like a big, fat, barrel of something nasty-only this barrel moves itself around if it's not put into a containment facility, and it's a risk to EVERYONE, even if you're "Monitoring" it.

You could create the ideal surveillance state-but...

1. will the cameras actually work?

2. will the people monitoring them, actually be doing their jobs?

Neither is a guarantee.

chefmike
03-17-2006, 04:57 AM
FUCK off- think of the soldiers

thmack
03-28-2006, 08:39 AM
fucking coward