BODY MODIFICATIONS THREAD:post surgeries & body modifications here

[natina]

TABOO


Drtiller.net: National Geographic Channel: Taboo: 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeXbcwcAL8)


National Geographic - Taboo - The Smallest waist in the World on a Living Person! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_N14gF3dj8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLAD30F2C905D35DDB)



silicone and other injections discussion
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=51083



tucking/temporary sex change

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=33132

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=4192


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=28584

[natina]

tucking/temporary sex change continued
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=28584

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=45790

eunuch
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=51058


rib removal

[natina]

TABOO; anorexia
National Geographic Taboo - Beauty, Isabelle Caro - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJPrhJty7TM&feature=related)

In a youth-obsessed Western culture, some feel the need to obsessively diet, exercise and partake of beauty treatments or plastic surgery. However, some have taken these to fatal extremes. In Paris, we'll meet a young model with extreme anorexia, who died from complications of anorexia.


The Battle With Anorexia - CAWTHRA PARK PSA - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_ax0h9FNag&feature=related)

My transformation Story - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwNNA0OUVMs&feature=related)

[natina]

Beauty - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YIkPGXBKmk&feature=relmfu)


Body Modification - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puj8KCz0pMg&feature=relmfu)

Bizarre Bodies - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG_wHyyvdM8&feature=relmfu)

[TS Evelyn Summers]

http://www.efukt.com/21003_Wait_For_It....html


Super creepy!

[Dino Velvet]

Nat Geo's Taboo is on a lot late at night. Some of the episodes are interesting and I watch too.

There was this guy named Permanent Mark that had a show where he gets different types of tattoos like from Yakuza/OC, indigenous peoples, and other hard to get artwork.

[fordly66]

http://www.efukt.com/21003_Wait_For_It....html


Super creepy!

I wonder what she went through? Looks to have had some serious medical problems. I hope she is better now. Still has the colostomy?

[natina]

Taboo: Beauty
Beauty - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YIkPGXBKmk&feature=relmfu)


Запреты: Сделайте мен� кра�ивей - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knWJphkK97Y&feature=related)


Taboo : NEW SEASON PREMIERES SUN JUN 17 at 10p et/pt : http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/taboo/

Some women are willing to mutilate and disfigure their bodies to break the ultimate beauty taboos.


Body Modification - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puj8KCz0pMg&feature=relmfu)

[natina]

gigantic lips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=9KtmJiLmluk




Kristina Rei Biggest Lips in the World - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvjSeeuaJn0)


Addicted to Plastic Surgery - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPCDWKxWwzQ&feature=related)


Dr Chugay on Dr Phil - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zHiZnymF2M&feature=related)


Mom Has Surgery to Look Like Daughter - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tC9iB6SDg&feature=related)

The Tyra Banks Show - Black Market Plastic Surgery (Part 2 of 4) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYIV3sgzT6A&feature=related)


Cement injected into cheek victim speaks - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsN4vdN6Zj0&feature=related)

[Willie Escalade]

http://www.efukt.com/21003_Wait_For_It....html


Super creepy!
What the fuck??

Oh, yeah...this.

[natina]

ok you almost got me on that one .

check this out


What the fuck??

Oh, yeah...this.
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=485369&stc=1&d=1342581716

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=484637&stc=1&d=1342355607

[natina]

Sex Change Hospital - Sex Change Surgery - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p26Bhaf7Kl0&feature=related)

The Sex Changers - Thailand - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7wVOnJ9_9U&feature=related)


Sex Change: A Revealing Journey (2010 Documentary Female-To-Male Transsexuals) Part 2 of 4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vHvaLrKhjc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU50UHcU8RU&feature=related

[natina]

My Facial Feminization Surgery FFS Dr. Gary Alter Before and After Surgery - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaSG4UH_z3A&feature=related)




Facial Feminization Surgery ( FFS ) Before & After: Ema Sofia - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mka1_sGysI&feature=related)


FFS - Facial Feminzation - Before and After Pictures/Discussion - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj5ByXIxUEg&feature=fvwrel)

[natina]

trout pout of a 90 year old Jacqueline Stallone

http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1264507.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/+Jackie+Stallone++'The+Expendables+2'+film+premier e,+Los+Angeles,+America+-+15+Aug+2012+

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1264506.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Jacqueline+Stallone

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/jackie-stallone-at-90-sylvesters-mum-1265306

[natina]

bleaching/fading and flatting scars dark spots and keloids
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1205248#post12052484


How to fade spots/acne/zit marks. FADE OUT CREAM REVIEW - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ11hSy3WF0)

How to get rid of Dark marks: "Best fading Product EVER!" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjznzIHPcUg)

Ambi Skin Care Toning (Fade) Cream Review Before & After (Fading Scars) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8rz6pnDxMU)

The Skin Doctor: LEMON TRICK - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vkCR2ZWAe4)


Get Rid of Acne Scars - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlXCsmgUr_w&feature=related)


Hydroquinone and fruit acid have been used for years.

it great to fade blemishes or dark spots and blend away scars.

he doctors use a stronger bleach then you can get over the counter.

lemon juice is a slow fade product




Black & White w/Hydroquinone Bleaching Cream 1.5 oz

http://www.pharmapacks.com/products.php?product=Black-%26-White-w%7B47%7DHydroquinone-Bleaching-Cream-1.5-oz&gclid=CKP3r9HAz7ICFcZxQgodlUEA1g



http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Ambi%20Skin%20Bleaching%20Cream&adid=22222222220025243486&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=b&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=8345053574&wl4=

http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/38/13/70/02/0038137002255_180X180.jpg


Lemon juice

[GoddessAthena85]

I go excited when i saw this thread. r yall just talking bad body mods. ? bad surgery n silicone. :( booo sad stuff really.

[natina]

ALL SURGERIES AND BODY MODIFICATIONS

good bad and the ugly


vagina/anal bleaching
http://mommysdirtylittlesecret.com/2012/04/16/photosvideo-vagina-lightener-clean-and-dry-intimate-wash-causing-controversy/

http://mommysdirtylittlesecret.com/2011/12/02/photosvideo-anal-bleaching-would-you-dare/

[GoddessAthena85]

ALL SURGERIES AND BODY MODIFICATIONS

good bad and the ugly

ohh I'll get back to yall I got company coming over. but this could be my blog to follow. or i could just posting hot mods to tumblr lol

[natina]

actually I have a bunch of threads that are similiar to this


the microfat injections subject

silicone injections topic

synthol injections

[natina]

http://cmtk3.webring.org/l/rd?ring=toiletring;id=1;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecra ppersquarterly%2Ecom%2Ffeatures%2Fanalbleaching%2E htm

http://cmtk3.webring.org/l/rd?ring=toiletring;id=1;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecra ppersquarterly%2Ecom%2Ffeatures%2Fanalbleaching%2E htm

http://cmtk3.webring.org/l/rd?ring=toiletring;id=1;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecra ppersquarterly%2Ecom%2Ffeatures%2Fanalbleaching%2E htm


ALL SURGERIES AND BODY MODIFICATIONS

good bad and the ugly


vagina/anal bleaching
http://mommysdirtylittlesecret.com/2012/04/16/photosvideo-vagina-lightener-clean-and-dry-intimate-wash-causing-controversy/

http://mommysdirtylittlesecret.com/2011/12/02/photosvideo-anal-bleaching-would-you-dare/

[natina]

WARNING SURGERY;interesting website men wanting vaginas,Eunuch , ftm/mtf stuff

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=51058


glue and tape tucking
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52810



silicone injection and more microfat injections synthol injections
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=51083

[natina]

The Truth About Anal Bleaching Update!

A hot topic racing across the Internet is the subject of Anal Bleaching. People are desperate to know if it is real or just another urban myth. Well, Crappers Quarterly went under cover and behind the scenes to find out the truth about Anal Bleaching and its sister treatment Vaginal Bleaching.


The first thing you need to know about Anal Bleaching is that it is REAL! Anal Bleaching is a growing trend started as a response to waxing salon customers who were concerned that their anal and vaginal areas were dark.

Featured on E! Network's program Dr. 90210 which highlights interesting and unusual cosmetic procedures, a recent episode showcased customer and porn star Tabitha Stevens having the treatment done.
Originally, anal and vaginal lightening was discovered by adult film stars, dancers, models, beauty-concious celebrities and others on the forefront of the waxing trend who were "exposed" and wanted to enhance the appearance of the anal, vaginal and other areas. However, they had to go to special salons and use harsh chemicals that could have potentially harmful side effects. As the popularity of bikini waxing grew, more waxing customers began noticing that their genital areas were darker than normal. It became a genuine concern from regular housewives and people in general. And the requests were coming in more and more.
Discoloration of the anal and vaginal areas can be caused by aging, hormonal changes from pregnancy and more. As more people discover bikini waxing (especially the ultra-revealing Brazilian), the more they need to pay attention to how they look once the hair is removed. Anal and vaginal lightening (also known as anal bleaching) is becoming increasingly popular because it can diminish dark, unsightly discoloration or pigmentation. Alarmingly, a number of questionable companies are rebranding their products as anal bleaching creams in order to take advantage of this new trend. The problem is that these products still contain hydroquinone, kojic acid and chemical preservatives such as methylparaben and propylparaben. If you see these ingredients listed then the product is NOT suitable for sensitive areas or sensitive skin. these people have a lot of money invested in their existing products and they want to trick as many people into purchasing them as possible. They are spending a lot of money in search engines and other marketing to get the attention of unsuspecting customers. These people do not want you to know the truth. BEWARE!!!!!!


To respond to the incredible demand for a safe, gentle, all-natural product for Anal and Vaginal bleaching a company called South Beach Skin Solutions™ has launched their Lightening Gel for Sensitive Areas. It is specifically formulated for lightening the anal, vaginal, breast, face and other sensitive areas. Unlike other skin lighteners, their Lightening Gel for Sensitive Areas is all natural, very gentle and does NOT contain potentially harmful or irritating chemicals such as Kojic Acid or Hydroquinone. The highly-advanced, all-natural active ingredients in their Lightening Gel are designed to gently lighten dark pigmented areas by blending them with your own natural skin tone providing you with a fresher, more youthful look. So safe and gentle you can use right after waxing and in the comfort of your own home!
According to the company, this is a revolutionary formula like nothing else in the marketplace. Here is why. They explained that to achieve lasting lightening, you cannot just whiten or "bleach" the top layer of skin as it will eventually slough off and expose the layers of natural (darker) skin below. To solve this problem, they have developed a special formula that uses a combination of methods to produce the most effective long-term results. They deliver a blend of natural skin de-pigmentation and whitening agents deep into the layers of the skin. These gently lighten the skin and reduce the activity of Tyrosinase (the enzyme responsible for skin darkening) in the lower layers of the skin. Soothing agents provide a gentle moisturizing treatment to protect. As newer skin comes to the surface, you see a lighter skin tone that blends with your natural skin tone.
As part of our investigation, CQ contacted a number of waxing salons, cosmetic surgeons, dermatologists and other skin care professionals around the country to see if they were aware of Anal Bleaching or if they were performing the service. Here in Miami where we were able to conduct personal interviews the reaction was one of initial shock and extreme interest. But we found no one who had heard of it before.
Then we attempted to interview various businesses across the northeast, midwest and west coast. We even contacted a famous Beverly Hills cosmetic surgeon, but no one was able to provide any further information as they simply didn't believe Anal Bleaching was real.

[danthepoetman]

Natina, without you I’d probably be like a just landed Martian on a new world. Where do you get all that stuff? It’s to tell you how much the world is constantly changing, and how much you constantly have to follow and learn. Very interesting again, Natina. Thanks!

[natina]

BLEACHING YOUR ASSHOLE OR AND SKIN BLEMISHES AND DARK SPOTS


get rid of that spotting face or stained skin

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1205242#post1205242


Hydroquinone and fruit acid have been used for years.

it great to fade blemishes or dark spots and blend away scars.

he doctors use a stronger bleach then you can get over the counter.

lemon juice is a slow fade product




Black & White w/Hydroquinone Bleaching Cream 1.5 oz

http://www.pharmapacks.com/products.php?product=Black-%26-White-w%7B47%7DHydroquinone-Bleaching-Cream-1.5-oz&gclid=CKP3r9HAz7ICFcZxQgodlUEA1g



http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Ambi%20Skin%20Bleaching%20Cream&adid=22222222220025243486&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=b&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=8345053574&wl4=

http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/38/13/70/02/0038137002255_180X180.jpg


How to fade spots/acne/zit marks. FADE OUT CREAM REVIEW - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ11hSy3WF0)

How to get rid of Dark marks: "Best fading Product EVER!" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjznzIHPcUg)

Ambi Skin Care Toning (Fade) Cream Review Before & After (Fading Scars) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8rz6pnDxMU)

The Skin Doctor: LEMON TRICK - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vkCR2ZWAe4)


Get Rid of Acne Scars - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlXCsmgUr_w&feature=related)


Lemon juice





The Truth About Anal Bleaching Update!

A hot topic racing across the Internet is the subject of Anal Bleaching. People are desperate to know if it is real or just another urban myth. Well, Crappers Quarterly went under cover and behind the scenes to find out the truth about Anal Bleaching and its sister treatment Vaginal Bleaching.


The first thing you need to know about Anal Bleaching is that it is REAL! Anal Bleaching is a growing trend started as a response to waxing salon customers who were concerned that their anal and vaginal areas were dark.

Featured on E! Network's program Dr. 90210 which highlights interesting and unusual cosmetic procedures, a recent episode showcased customer and porn star Tabitha Stevens having the treatment done.
Originally, anal and vaginal lightening was discovered by adult film stars, dancers, models, beauty-concious celebrities and others on the forefront of the waxing trend who were "exposed" and wanted to enhance the appearance of the anal, vaginal and other areas. However, they had to go to special salons and use harsh chemicals that could have potentially harmful side effects. As the popularity of bikini waxing grew, more waxing customers began noticing that their genital areas were darker than normal. It became a genuine concern from regular housewives and people in general. And the requests were coming in more and more.
Discoloration of the anal and vaginal areas can be caused by aging, hormonal changes from pregnancy and more. As more people discover bikini waxing (especially the ultra-revealing Brazilian), the more they need to pay attention to how they look once the hair is removed. Anal and vaginal lightening (also known as anal bleaching) is becoming increasingly popular because it can diminish dark, unsightly discoloration or pigmentation. Alarmingly, a number of questionable companies are rebranding their products as anal bleaching creams in order to take advantage of this new trend. The problem is that these products still contain hydroquinone, kojic acid and chemical preservatives such as methylparaben and propylparaben. If you see these ingredients listed then the product is NOT suitable for sensitive areas or sensitive skin. these people have a lot of money invested in their existing products and they want to trick as many people into purchasing them as possible. They are spending a lot of money in search engines and other marketing to get the attention of unsuspecting customers. These people do not want you to know the truth. BEWARE!!!!!!


To respond to the incredible demand for a safe, gentle, all-natural product for Anal and Vaginal bleaching a company called South Beach Skin Solutions™ has launched their Lightening Gel for Sensitive Areas. It is specifically formulated for lightening the anal, vaginal, breast, face and other sensitive areas. Unlike other skin lighteners, their Lightening Gel for Sensitive Areas is all natural, very gentle and does NOT contain potentially harmful or irritating chemicals such as Kojic Acid or Hydroquinone. The highly-advanced, all-natural active ingredients in their Lightening Gel are designed to gently lighten dark pigmented areas by blending them with your own natural skin tone providing you with a fresher, more youthful look. So safe and gentle you can use right after waxing and in the comfort of your own home!
According to the company, this is a revolutionary formula like nothing else in the marketplace. Here is why. They explained that to achieve lasting lightening, you cannot just whiten or "bleach" the top layer of skin as it will eventually slough off and expose the layers of natural (darker) skin below. To solve this problem, they have developed a special formula that uses a combination of methods to produce the most effective long-term results. They deliver a blend of natural skin de-pigmentation and whitening agents deep into the layers of the skin. These gently lighten the skin and reduce the activity of Tyrosinase (the enzyme responsible for skin darkening) in the lower layers of the skin. Soothing agents provide a gentle moisturizing treatment to protect. As newer skin comes to the surface, you see a lighter skin tone that blends with your natural skin tone.
As part of our investigation, CQ contacted a number of waxing salons, cosmetic surgeons, dermatologists and other skin care professionals around the country to see if they were aware of Anal Bleaching or if they were performing the service. Here in Miami where we were able to conduct personal interviews the reaction was one of initial shock and extreme interest. But we found no one who had heard of it before.
Then we attempted to interview various businesses across the northeast, midwest and west coast. We even contacted a famous Beverly Hills cosmetic surgeon, but no one was able to provide any further information as they simply didn't believe Anal Bleaching was real.

[Dino Velvet]

My left arm still works but is mangled with muscle tears and scars. Got a horseshoe scar on top of my shaved head too. No tattoos or piercings though.

[fellini]

Did any of you see the recent episode of Taboo which showed people with body modifications? They showed a lady in Mexico who looked like a monster it was really scary.

[natina]

get rid of the scars and flatten those keloids

http://www.realself.com/question/silicone-gel-pads-raised-scar-tissue

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/embarrassing-scars-mdash-how-can-i-get-rid-them


It's not possible to completely remove a scar, but a few treatments might help make your scars less noticeable:

Onion Extract acts as an anti-inflammatory and seems to inhibit the over-production of collagen in a scar. Onion extract is available in the United States as a gel by itself, but is also an ingredient in Mederma gel, a widely used scar treatment that you referred to in your question. Onion extract, by itself or as part of another course of treatment, requires consistent use over several months in order to produce any effect.

Silicone, available either as a gel or in rubber-like sheets, has been found to lighten and flatten scars. You apply the gel directly to the scar or use medical tape to cover the scar with the silicone sheet. It isn't known exactly how silicone helps scars heal — some researchers think that static electricity from the silicone helps align collagen fibers in the scar, while others think it might help trap moisture, which can help make scars fade.

Alpha Hydroxy Acids are natural fruit acids that are used to exfoliate (remove) dead skin cells. This process can improve the appearance of acne scars and reduce redness, as well as wrinkles and signs of aging. If you decide to use alpha hydroxy, investigate the various strengths and use the mildest. For people with sensitive skin, alpha hydroxy can cause irritation, stinging, and other problems. A health care provider or dermatologist can advise you on which types and concentrations of alpha hydroxy acids you can try.


AMBI,BLACK & WHITE skin bleach

My left arm still works but is mangled with muscle tears and scars. Got a horseshoe scar on top of my shaved head too. No tattoos or piercings though.



BLEACHING YOUR ASSHOLE OR AND SKIN BLEMISHES AND DARK SPOTS


get rid of that spotting face or stained skin

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1205242#post1205242

[danthepoetman]

Natina, you always find anything and everything: please! find some nice body modification stuff for Athena! There must be some good modifications somewhere out there, no?

[GoddessAthena85]

Natina, you always find anything and everything: please! find some nice body modification stuff for Athena! There must be some good modifications somewhere out there, no?

aww thanks Dan i'll leave the thread how it is I have my blog, full of body mods, n tattoos. I just thought maybe this was a thread where I would find the people on here into Mods. It still might be

[Jericho]

Brrrrrrrr, not fukkin likely!

http://www.splitkransky.com/

[natina]

SILICONE
http://wiki.bme.com/index.php/Silicone_Injection

http://www.bme.com/


3D TATTOO

http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lane-boob-implants-2.jpg

http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lane-tattoo-boob-implants-healing.jpg

[Jericho]

Someone had to! :shrug

[danthepoetman]

http://www.bme.com/


3D TATTOO

http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lane-boob-implants-2.jpg

http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lane-tattoo-boob-implants-healing.jpg

Nice site, you found, Natina! Thank you! Have you checked this one out, Athena?

[danthepoetman]

Someone had to! :shrug

The absolute horror, Jericho! the horror! lol lol

[GoddessAthena85]

Nice site, you found, Natina! Thank you! Have you checked this one out, Athena?
looking at it now, while watching Revenge. I love implants. Not so much the saline kinds. but sub dermal implants like what they did here. they are so sweet.

[themaster]

Those implants in the picture were taken out days latter, it got infected. But most implants I've seen healed well.

There is a store you can buy some of the implants http://steve-haworth-modified-llc.myshopify.com/

You however would need somebody to implant it for you. I hope to get the Biohazzard implant soon.

[GoddessAthena85]

Those implants in the picture were taken out days latter, it got infected. But most implants I've seen healed well.

There is a store you can buy some of the implants http://steve-haworth-modified-llc.myshopify.com/

You however would need somebody to implant it for you. I hope to get the Biohazzard implant soon.
I hate the sterotype associated with bio hazard designs in this culture. I think I'mma keep working on my tattoos before I decide on where to place an implant i would hate to have it n the want to cover that area in ink after

[themaster]

You can always have the implant custom designed though that will cost allot of money. However you do have a good point about body modification, sometimes there is this fight not to stereotype and yet we can sometimes stereotype ourselves.

Most people that know me understand me and so it would not surprise people if they see it, plus in the media industry I work in its not that crazy to see "odd looking" people. Though some people would say I'm odd enough.

[GoddessAthena85]

You can always have the implant custom designed though that will cost allot of money. However you do have a good point about body modification, sometimes there is this fight not to stereotype and yet we can sometimes stereotype ourselves.

Most people that know me understand me and so it would not surprise people if they see it, plus in the media industry I work in its not that crazy to see "odd looking" people. Though some people would say I'm odd enough.
odd I like, Mod I like, Defected, caring, ADD more things I like. lol I work with some unique people. I got the gig while dancing naked under a may poll at a pagan festival lol

[GoddessAthena85]

this is rad. totally custom

[themaster]

That's awesome

[GoddessAthena85]

That's awesome
right!
I should be asleep , damn caffeine. thank the goddess for concealer since i have to be at work in a few hours
fuck lol

[Prospero]

This girl works as an escort in Northampton. Maximum tattoos and also a fake vagina. Whatever floats your boat....

[Willie Escalade]

Damn...that HAD to hurt...

[Prospero]

a wee bit horrific - especially that fake vagins

[danthepoetman]

Maori tattoes. When you think these are made with a wooden pin being taped on, on the skin, like a nail with a mallet, over and over again, in an terribly painful process by which they show their manhood, you just have to be impressed by these...

[danthepoetman]

Here's how it's made:
darby tuhaka and rolf offeringa working with traditional tattoo handtools FRANCE - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCp8w_hCkI0)
tapping at Soul Signature Tattoo Shop - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6_No4L8gPE&feature=related)
Traditional Samoan Pe'a, Tatau (Tattoo) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3srLQxcLKms&feature=related)

[martin48]

This girl works as an escort in Northampton. Maximum tattoos and also a fake vagina. Whatever floats your boat....

Northampton!!!

[martin48]

Elaine Davidson - 7000 piercings


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8564772/Worlds-most-pierced-woman-gets-married-to-balding-civil-servant.html

[natina]

lip and cheek fillers done by celebrity's

http://wonderwall.msn.com/movies/celebrities-presidential-endorsements-22252.gallery#!wallState=0__%2Fmovies%2Fdo-these-celebs-use-fillers-22214.gallery

[natina]

tucking info and pictures

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=50770 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=50770)

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52810 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=52810)

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=4192 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=4192)

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=33132 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=33132)

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=28584 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=28584)

[martin48]

A little extreme perhaps

[natina]

Medical tourism helps you get the best treatment at minimal cost. It also offers you the chance to visit a new place
http://www.aarogya.com/news-and-updates/year-2011/7230-take-a-chill-pill-save-on-medical-cost-.html

South super star Rajnikanth flying to Singapore for treatment is the talking point these days. The reason to fly to a foreign country could have been better medical facilities, a friend’s advice or just the comfort factor.

The southern star’s case was a classic case of emergency. However, there are many patients – especially expatriates – who plan their surgeries or medical treatment in foreign countries or cities to benefit from lower healthcare costs without any compromise on the quality of the treatment.

Concept of Medical Tourism
Just as working professionals mix business with pleasure, individuals have the option of mixing health with pleasure. An individual residing in the US or Europe can seek medical (http://www.aarogya.com/health-resources/medical-tourism.html) attention in India or other South Asian countries such as Singapore at just a fraction of the price back home. It could be a heart ailment, orthopaedic problem or even a cosmetic surgery. The idea is to fly to a country with a lower medical inflation, which reduces your overall bill amount. What’s more, you also get a chance to tour that country!




Good Option for NRIS
"It is a good option for people staying abroad, who are not insured/underinsured because of the high cost differential in medical facilities between India and other countries," says Rahul Aggarwal, CEO of Optima Insurance Brokers. "In the UK for instance, every medical treatment has to be routed via the NHS (National Health Service). There are few options when it comes to private doctors in the UK. As a result, a patient has to wait for a very long time to get his/her turn. Hence, countries such as India and Singapore have a clear edge over western countries, both in terms of the number of hospitals and the cost advantage," says Aggarwal.

Within India, an individual can think of going to only smaller towns, which may come with a host of other issues. "The social overhead cost of smaller towns is lower because of cheaper paramedical staff cost and outdated equipment, which can compromise the overall quality of treatment," says Aggarwal. New Delhi gets the maximum medical tourists as it is the capital and has better air connectivity. After New Delhi, the preferred destinations are Chennai and Hyderabad, say experts.

Factors You Should Consider
"You have to identify the country and a city with good and easy air connectivity," says Raj Raina, deputy general manager – marketing, Indraprastha Apollo Hospitals. "Secondly, you should identify a hospital depending upon the availability of the treatment, the cost and the success rate. Lastly, you must check the credentials of the hospital/consultants (JCI, UK or US Board Certified)," he says. "Patients from the the US, UK and Europe give a lot of importance to JCI accreditation."

"I would advise patient to give more importance to the doctor than the hospital," says Radhakrishna Chamarty, director of India Insure Risk Management and Insurance Broking Services. "The surgeon or the specialist makes a bigger difference than the hospital. In fact, the same specialist may practise at different hospitals. You can choose one of those hospitals rather than settling for the brand of the hospital."

The Cost Matrix
It is not just the treatment or the doctor’s fees that matters. You have to put a rupee value to every service and goods before and after hospitalisation to know the accurate cost of the entire exercise. Then you will be able to make fair comparisons across different cities and hospitals.

For instance, a medical procedure may involve a certain recuperation period, which will add to your lodging costs, cost of air tickets of the patient and the relative, cost of professional help/nurse post the medical intervention, etc. Sometimes, the hospital designs the entire package and gives an approximate cost to the patient, which can help him/her make an informed decision.

"When a patient writes to us, we ask them to send us the latest medical reports. On the basis of the reports, the doctor gives the line of treatment and the approximate cost. The patient carries the treatment cost, package inclusion/exclusions, guest house expenses before/after the surgery and, of course, the travel cost. Hospitals typically have guest houses/hotels in the vicinity. Patients can select an option as per their budget and specification," Raina of Indraprastha Apollo Hospitals says.

Challenges in Medical Tourism
While this route does seem like a winwin situation for the three parties involved – the policyholder, the insurer as well as the TPA, it’s not without its share of hurdles. "Unlike in the developed economies like the US or Europe, hospitals are not rated in India," Aggarwal of Optima Insurance Brokers says.

"There is no third-party agency such as an ICRA or Crisil to rate the hospitals. A customer sitting in Delhi is unable to compare the cost differentials of a four-star rated hospital in Delhi vis-à-vis a four-star rated hospital in Chennai. Hence, a consumer has to rely on friends' or relatives’ opinions on a particular hospital or a doctor to make decisions," he says.
Tomorrow The Need for Financial Planning





http://images.aarogya.com/aarogya/images/take-a-chill-pill1.jpg

[theoryman]

This girl works as an escort in Northampton. Maximum tattoos and also a fake vagina. Whatever floats your boat....

I'm not a fan of ink, but, truly?

Even if faked, she has both?

Not just a tat of a vagina?

I've never payed for it... But, maybe... I need to take a trip to the UK.

--

[Prospero]

No it seems it is NOT just a tattoo but a surgically created fake vagina beneath her cock. Her advert claims she will not take anal but will let you fuck her in her 'vagina". Scary shit IMHO

[danthepoetman]

No it seems it is NOT just a tattoo but a surgically created fake vagina beneath her cock. Her advert claims she will not take anal but will let you fuck her in her 'vagina". Scary shit IMHO
Must admit with you, Prospero, that this one belongs to the weird and worrying department, even though it’s not devoid of a great sense of originality and creativity… Some people are ready to go to very extreme lengths to achieve a physical ideal, way beyond in their sense of aesthetics what we can envision for a majority of us.

[theoryman]

Not into the tats, but having both sure is intriguing...

Gotta be rare.

On the other hand, if a gurl was looking for the ability to command some very high rates because of her uniqueness, without the tats she certainly could!

--

[danthepoetman]

Tattoo man…

[natina]

Human Barbie Valeria Lukyanova Opens Up to V Magazine


Looking at the photograph of Valeria Lukyanova, left, you might wonder if this Ukrainian internet star really exists outside of the strange land of YouTube, where "living doll" (http://yhoo.it/RTe4GS) beauty has become a trend. The picture, however, is from the new issue of V magazine, (http://www.vmagazine.com/site/content/261/living-doll) which flew Lukyanova, known as "the human Barbie," to New York for the shoot, proving her existence and giving us a glimpse into her bizarre brain. At Shine we've profiled many doll-like ladies, from 19-year-old Anime queen Anastasiya Shpagina (http://yhoo.it/ZvXYGF), to 15-year-old London YouTube sensation Venus Palermo (http://yhoo.it/QbhLqT%20), to England-native Sarah Burge (http://bit.ly/ZvY6G1), who currently holds the world record for spending over $500,000 on cosmetic surgery. Even so, Lukyanova's story stands out.


VIDEO: Anderson Cooper tells human Barbie she's dreadful (http://bit.ly/ZvY6G1)
Twenty-one-year-old Lukyanova refers to herself as "most famous woman of the Russian-speaking Internet" and often uses the alias "Amatue," which means sun goddess. She hails from the Moldavian city of Tiraspol, and currently has 466 videos uploaded to her YouTube account (http://www.youtube.com/user/Amatue?feature=results_main)with over 16 million views and 535,000 Facebook fans. She was early to the living doll movement, but she tells V, "Indeed, I've noticed a trend." In fact, Lukyanova is friends with "Anime Girl" Anastasiya Shpagina, who makes similar popular online beauty tutorials. "Every good-looking woman with fine features and a slim figure looks like a doll. I won't deny that I play along with people's perceptions. I'm amused by the reactions. I don't take it seriously."
PHOTO: A $15,000 Barbie doll (http://yhoo.it/RPu5iK%20)
Strong reactions to Lukyanova's appearance are not surprising. With her large glassy eyes (enhanced by makeup and contact lenses), long platinum blond hair, Gumby-like limbs, and disproportionate chest to waist ratio, the Ukrainian YouTube star really does look like she belongs in a Mattel box on a toy shelf. But despite her unrealistic exterior and confusing claims on her website that she is "endowed by nature with extraordinary external data," this woman is real.
So what is the average day like for a human Barbie like Lukyanova? "In the morning I work on my face and I get a massage, then I spend some time on the Internet," she tells V magazine. "I meditate and travel in my astral body, and after that I work out at the gym. I go for a walk with my best girlfriend, I get home, and I make dinner for the man I love. Then I spend some more time on the Internet, do some reading and meditating, and go to bed." Yup, all in a day's work.
Lukynova encounters many haters in online forums, but she isn't deterred by them. "I know the other side of celebrity is negativity, but I see it in a positive light. If people care about me, then I am on the right path," she says. "I'm happy I seem unreal to them, it means I'm doing a good job. It's hard work, but they dismiss it as something done by surgeons or computer artists. This is how they justify not wanting to strive for self-improvement. "
While clearly she values her appearance, she insists that her inner self is far more important. So in addition to maintaining her intense beauty routine, Lukyanova is focusing on her spiritual journey. In fact, she says she's a teacher at the School of Out-of-Body Travel. (We looked it up-as bizarre as it sounds, there is one textbook available on Amazon and an online course We're wondering if she's actually paid, and perhaps this is how she makes a living as a YouTube star and professional living doll.) To elaborate, she told V, "It's an international school in which our instructors show students how to leave their physical body and travel in their spiritual body, where you can visit any place on the planet and in the universe. I know that this is the future of mankind and that it has huge potential."
Speaking of potential, Lukyanova is also actively pursuing a music career in the unknown-to-us "new age opera" genre. She says she writes most of her work during meditation and astral travels, and counts music by Sarah Brightman and Enigma amongst her influences. "Sometimes I can write a piece in one breath, in as little as five minutes," she tells V. Another dubious unknown talent of Lukyanova: "I'm a professional mountain climber."
She may be real, but it's clear Lukyanova is from another planet.
Click here (http://www.vmagazine.com/site/content/261/living-doll) for the full story from V magazine's "Girl Power" issue. You can also watch the clip below to see a "human Ken doll" who's had 90 procedures, and a Barbie wannabe whose breasts are her business.

http://shine.yahoo.com/beauty/human-barbie-valeria-lukyanova-opens-up-to-v-magazine.html

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=525617&stc=1&d=1352764604

[natina]

When butt enhancement goes horribly wrong: Woman left with hideous bulge after implant 'flips inside out'


Video apparently shows implant protruding after botched plastic surgery

She moves it back into place, saying: 'Don't think it's meant to do that'


A shocking video emerged today showing a grotesque bulge in a woman's buttock apparently caused when her botched silicone implant 'flipped inside out'.
Instead giving her a smooth, plump appearance, the implant has popped out and is left protruding in an ugly disc shape at the back of her cheek.

In the 20-second clip, the unidentified woman slowly manipulates it back into place while explaining: 'This is my implant flipping backwards'.
She adds: 'I don't think an implant's supposed to do that. It shouldn't be able to flip.'
Scroll down for video


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/28/article-2239722-163FAE1F000005DC-975_634x610.jpgBad ass-et: A woman shows her bulging buttock caused when her implant popped out of place



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/28/article-2239722-163FAE3D000005DC-698_634x506.jpgOops: The video, posted on Facebook, shows the implant protruding in a disc shape at the back of her cheek

The video has been 'liked' by 278 people on Facebook and shared nearly 20,000 times.
One user, Donna Wright-Levy, commented: 'I prefer to go harder on the squats, lunges, hamstring curls and the gluteous kickbacks...'

Kader SmileyFace said: 'Uh!! Why would she want a bigger ass!'
More...


I had to shave my head to land Silicon Valley CEO job: 60-year-old forced to lose what was left of his hair, get an eye-lift and trade loafers for Converse to work in youth-obsessed tech-hub (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239277/CEO-Randy-Adams-60-shaves-head-wears-Converse-job-youth-obsessed-Silicon-Valley.html)
A horrific car crash left her locked in a face that couldn't move... then Bethan was given a 'smile transplant' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2237841/A-horrific-car-crash-left-locked-face--Bethan-given-smile-transplant.html)

It is difficult to establish whether the video is genuine and no details are known about which clinic the woman went to or exactly what type of procedure she had.
But BAAPS Member Adrian Richards, a consultant plastic surgeon at Aurora Clinics in the UK, believes the clip is authentic.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/28/article-2239722-163FAE62000005DC-13_634x480.jpgBotched buttock: In the clip, the unidentified woman slowly manipulates it back into place while explaining: 'This is my implant flipping backwards'



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/28/article-2239722-163FAE7A000005DC-608_634x486.jpgMiffed: The woman adds: 'I don't think an implant's supposed to do that. It shouldn't be able to flip'



He said the problem occurs when the implant is not secured firmly enough in a 'pocket' the surgeon creates either between the buttock and the pelvic bone or on top of the gluteus maximus.

'It is a complication which is relatively common following buttock implants. It shouldn't really happen because the pocket should be snug so the implant stays where it is.
'This lady's implant is flat on the bottom and coned on the top, but this one has flipped over.'
He said it wouldn't be painful, but would likely need to be removed or the pocket closed up to stop it shifting around.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/28/article-2239722-163FAEAA000005DC-511_634x509.jpgBack in place: The video has been 'liked' by 278 people on Facebook and shared nearly 20,000 times



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/28/article-2239722-163FAED6000005DC-46_634x511.jpgHow it should look: The implant returns to its 'default position' but may not stay there for long



Buttock implants are popular in South America, where plump bottoms are regarded as sexually desirable.
In recent years, plastic surgery experts have been warning women not to have operations in unapproved clinics after a string of deaths and dodgy practices.

In April last year, a 42-year-old mother-of-three died after buttock implant surgery at a backstreet Las Vegas clinic.
Elena Caro's family begged her not to have the operation, saying she was beautiful as she was, but she went ahead with the surgery.
She was found crying in agony and begging for help after an unlicensed Colombian doctor allegedly dumped her by the side of the road when the procedure went wrong and she died in hospital a short time later.
In December 2009, a former Miss Argentina who was obsessed with maintaining her youthful looks died following surgery to make her buttocks firmer.
Solange Magnano, 38, was rushed to hospital with severe breathing problems after the cosmetic operation.
The mother of eight-year-old twins died from a blocked lung artery after spending three days in a critical condition in intensive care.
Atlanta woman Kimberly Smedley was jailed for three years in July after injecting customers' buttocks with commercial silicone in hotel rooms and using glue and cotton balls to prevent the substance from leaking out.
Federal prosecutors believe Smedley made at least $1.3 million while operating her illegal practice out of hotel rooms in Baltimore, Washington, Detroit, Philadelphia and New York.

In cases where silicone jabs are used, the procedure can cause a blood clot to the lungs known as a pulmonary embolism.
VIDEO: Woman shows off botched butt implant


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239722/Video-butt-implant-surgery-goes-horribly-wrong.html#ixzz2DZU7E3iA


BUTT IMPLANTS: HOW IT'S DONE


To insert the implant, an incision is usually made where the cheek meets the back of the thigh or in the buttock crease where the scars are less noticeable.
The surgeon then creates a pocket large enough to insert the silicone either under the gluteus maximus muscle or on top of it.
Sometimes fat is taken by liposuction from another area of the body to enhance the shape of the buttocks.
The surgeon will then make sure both buttocks are symmetrical before stitching up the wounds.

But if the pocket is made too big, the implant can slip out.

The procedure is normally performed under general anaesthetic.

An alternative method involves injecting fat into the buttocks.

[GrimFusion]

Inverted implant or not, that is a hideous ass.
I thought the point of ass enhancement was to look enhanced, but natural.
That doesn't look natural.

[natina]

here you go

SEE THE SURGERY FOR YOURSELF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1vKT4JEcDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWFHTBI6iY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKuLmcrIJAc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjqlcLCiU2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKXT-mv9QHE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p26Bhaf7Kl0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVM6r0oL1tk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUpeEBL1zBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxlzPh2Twps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ZxlAK4zNw

transsexual dilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ZxlAK4zNw

[natina]

MTF- Facial Feminization Surgery- Male to Female Transsexual.wmv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tYqtCFl_s

[natina]

Dr. Lazaro Cardenas
PLASTIC SURGEON
PLASTIC SURGEON CERTIFICADED BY THE MEXICAN BOARD OF PLASTIC SURGERY
Guadalajara, Jalisco Mxico
www.neoplasticgdl.com (http://www.neoplasticgdl.com/) e mail: plassurg@mail.udg.mx (plassurg@mail.udg.mx)
Tels 5233-31210983 5233-31219604 5233-36471947 5233-31212303 5233-36471947 5233-31212303

Fees June 2005
SURGERY
Upper and Lower eyelids $ 1,250.00
Upper or lower eyelids $ 825.00
Forehead lifting $ 1,650.00
Minor Face Lift $ 2,350.00
Major Face Lift $ 2,950.00
Eyebrow lifting $ 1,150.00
Major Face Lift and Eyelids $ 3,500.00
Perioral Dermoabrasion $ 450.00 With another surgery
Forehead dermoabrasion $ 650.00 With anotrher surgery
Esthetic Rhinoplasthy $ 1,750.00
Functional and Esthetic Rhinoplasthy $ 1,850.00
Cheek Implant $ 1,550.00 Includes Cheek Implant
Chin Implant $ 990.00 Includes Chin Implant
Ear Esthetic Sugery $ 1,550.00
Neck Liposuction $ 700.00 With another surgery
Cheek Fat Pad Elimination $ 550.00 With another surgery
Breast Implants $ 2,950.00 Includes breast implants
Breast Lifting without implants $ 2,300.00
Breast lifting with implants $ 3,400.00 Includes breast implants
Breast Reduction $ 2,400.00
Small Liposuction $ 1,650.00
Medium Liposuction $ 2,200.00
Big liposuction $ 2,750.00
Gluteal implants $ 3,900.00 Includes gluteal implants
Rib Remotion $ 2,200.00
Calf Implants $ 3,400.00 Includes Calf implants
Tummy Tuck ( abdominoplasty) $ 2,300.00
Abdominoplasty and small liposuction $ 2,750.00
Abdominoplasty and medium liposuction $ 3,300.00
Abdominoplasty and big liposution $ 3,750.00
Arms flaccidity correction $ 2,200.00
Inguinal Flaccidity correction $ 2,200.00
FACIAL FEMINIZATION
HAirline advancement and eyebrow lifting $ 1,550.00
HAirline advancement and bone remodelation $ 2,200.00
Chin remodelation $ 1,750.00
Posterior Jaw remodelation $ 1,750.00
Jaw and chin remodelation $ 2,750.00
Adam's apple shave $ 900.00 With another surgery
Orchiectomy $ 900.00 With another surgery
All prices includes : All surgical fees
Only One day at the hospital (if price is higher than 1,000 dlls)
Medication during surgery and during hospital staying
Prices do not includes EXTRA DAYS AT THE HOSPITAL
If you have to stay extra days in our city for surgery follow up, you have to stay in a Hotel
Prices do not includes medication that you have to take home
Prices do not includes anything that is not marked in this paper (Extra calls or extra meals)

all approximate.

Laser Hair Removal: £6000
Electrolysis: £1000
Orchiectomy: £1500
Breast Augmentation: £4500
Hormones: £7000
Consultations: £2000
Voice Therapy: £2000
Travelling: £4000
ID: £500
Birth Certificate: £500
Time: 6-years

So adding that lot up; £29K ($60k) Bloody hell!! I never really added up the cost before as it's all been ongoing bit by bit. That's all over 6-years.

And I could easily spend another £30k ($60k) on SRS and FFS.

That is all of course purely the financial cost. There's also the social and emotional costs too. There is not one single person in my past life that I carried through to the present, except my family.

The biggest cost to me was my friends. Which has left emotional scars which I try to hide. It has definitely affected my trust in people, also that when I'm eager for friends I sometimes say the wrong things out of fear of going through it all again.

[natina]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/feminine-vs-masculine


Feminine vs. masculine

http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/greta.garbo.jpg
Please note: Some images on this page are not work-safe.
The information on this page allows one to infer how masculine or feminine different women are, and should be used to compare high-fashion models with glamour models.
Men develop under higher androgen levels than women. Women develop under higher estrogen levels than men. Both androgens and estrogens affect various skeletal structures and soft tissues in different ways. Therefore, an examination of overall physical appearance allows one to compare the ratios of testosterone (a major androgen) to estradiol (a major estrogen) that people of the same ethnic group have developed under.
Some of the major physique differences between men and women are well-known and are not addressed here. For example, a woman with broad shoulders and a narrow pelvis is more masculinized than the typical woman. The discussion below mostly focuses on facial features and pelvic/torso skeletal structure. Please note that since sex hormones are only partly responsible for trait variation, it is necessary to consider a cluster of traits known to be influenced by sex hormones to assess the masculinity-femininity of a person.

The skull

Fig 1 shows variation in [European] skull shape resulting from sex differences, after removing the size-differences factor. The middle skull (top row) represents the average of men and women; the skulls to its left and right represent feminization (effect of estrogens) and masculinization (effect of androgens), respectively. Note the two-dimensional matrix in the background of the middle skull; the directionality of its deformation in the background of the other two skulls represents the effects of sex hormones.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph.gif

Fig 1: Change in skull shape as a function of sex, assessed via geometric morphometrics.(1) The first row shows transformation grids from mean centroid size into a female and into a male. The bottom row shows corresponding generalized least-square superimpositions. "In males, the nasoglabellar profile [region around points 1 and 2 in the figure] becomes curved and projecting, and the subnasal profile rotates clockwise. The nasal roof is elevated, and the nasal floor shifts downwards. The outer table of the occipital clivus rotates counterclockwise. The chin is lowered, and the gonial region gets strongly curved [the gonion is marked at point 22]. At the occipital bone in males , the squamous proportion dominates over the nuchal area, and the whole basi- and neurocranium is deformed globularly."(3) The numbers are defined as follows: 1, Glabella; 2, Nasion; 3, Rhinion; 4, Anterior nasal spine; 5, A-point (deepest point on the curvature of the alveolar clivus in the median sagittal plane); 6, Prosthion; 7, Infradentale; 8, B-point (deepest point at the mandibular symphysis curvature [between landmark 7 and landmark 9]); 9, Menton; 10, Gnathion; 11, Vomero-sphenoid junction; 12, Basion; 13, Ophistion; 14, Inion; 15, Ophistocranion; 16, Lambda; 17, Bregma; 18, R. alveolar point (right posterior limit of the maxillary alveolar arc at the pterygo-alveolar suture); 19, R. optic canal point (most superior, medial, and anterior points of the optic canal [superior border of the posterior face]); 20, R. inf. basal border; 21, R. preangular incisure; 22, R. gonion; 23, R. ramus flexion; 24, R. condylion; 25, R. mastoid tip (most distal point at the mastoid process); 26, R. mental foramen (anterior limit); 27, R. lingula mandibulae (antero-lateral base); 28, R. foramen ovale (postero-lateral corner); 29, Posterior nasal spine.(1)
Fig 2 summarizes the finds obtained in Fig 1.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph2.gif


Fig 2: Change in skull shape as a function of masculinization and feminization.(1)


Fig 3 sums up some elements of cranial shape variation resulting from masculinization and feminization, and includes some of the changes not addressed in Fig 1. The technical terms in Fig 3 are explained below it.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph3.gif

Fig 3: Cranial shape variation related to masculinization and feminization.(2-4)






In Fig 3, changes related to the mastoid process, nuchal plane (back of the skull at the nape of the neck) and external occipital protuberance are not relevant for a visual comparison based on photographs of real people because hair would typically hide the differences. Fig 3 also mentions shape changes in the superciliary and zygomatic arches, which are explained next. Notice the spot marked as the glabella in Figure 3. The superciliary arches are the arches on the forehead, right above the eyebrows, which extend sideways on both sides of the glabella. The zygomatics are the cheekbones, shown in orange in Fig 4, which also depicts the cross-hatched bony portion known as the zygomatic arch.
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/zygomatics.jpg



Fig 4: Zygomatic bones, also known as cheekbones (orange) and the zygomatic arch (cross-hatched portion). The cheekbones are higher in males, lower in females; and the zygomatic arches are higher and thicker in males, lower and thinner in females.(3, 4) Illustrations taken from Sobotta Atlas of Human Anatomy (http://www.lww.com/product/?0-7817-3403-7).
Fig 5 shows real-life examples of the skull of a feminine woman (left) and that of a masculine man.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/skulls.jpg

Fig 5: The skulls of a feminine woman (left) and a masculine man.




Fig 6 addresses change in [European] skull shape as a function of size. Note that increasing face size sharpens the gonial angle (at point 22), giving it a masculine appearance.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/allometry.gif



Fig 6: Change in face shape as a function of size, assessed via geometric morphometrics.(1) The first row shows transformation grids from mean centroid size into a small individual and into a large one. The bottom row shows corresponding generalized least-square superimpositions. "With increasing centroid size [face size], the subnasal clivus becomes enlarged and rotates counterclockwise; the increment of the mandibular ramus [vertical portion of lower jaw bone] height leads to a more pronounced angulation at gonion [point 22]; the antero-posterior dimensions of the splanchnocranium are reduced; the face is expanded supero-inferiorly; the face appears relatively larger than the neurocranium; and the braincase becomes more globular."(1) See the legend of Fig 1 for the definitions of the numbers.
There are additional changes in facial features related to sex hormones; these changes are addressed after controlling for size: the eyebrows are thicker and placed lower on the face, i.e., closer to the eyes, in males; the face is broader in the female; the distance between the eyes is greater in the female; and the chin is longer and squared in the male (Fig 7a).


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/face.shape.gif


Fig 7a: Face outline variation resulting from masculinization and feminization (front view, assessed via geometric morphometrics); f = female, m = male.(5)
In Fig 7b, the middle column represents the male-female average (northwest Europeans); the left and right columns represent equal displacements in the male and female direction, respectively. The differences between the left and right columns represent an approximately three-fold exaggeration of average male-female differences.



http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/laser.scan.1.jpg


Fig 7b. Sexual dimorphism in face shape; see text for details.(6)


Figure 7c describes how a female face is transformed by increased feminization. The left column shows the directionality of displacement of parts of the face; the blue part moves inward and the red part outwards; stronger color implies that the directionality of the displacement is closer to right angles to the surface. The middle column shows the magnitude of the displacement; stronger color implies greater magnitude of change; the color coding at each point is in 33% percentiles. The right column shows change in [local] surface area; red implies increase and blue decrease; color coding at each point is in 33% percentiles, with darker colors implying the upper percentiles.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/laser.scan.2.jpg

Fig 7c. Face shape change resulting from feminization of a female face; see text for details.(6)




Increasing feminization causes the following important facial changes:(6)



(key in a standing person: anterior = toward front, posterior = toward back, superior = above, inferior = below, medial = toward midline, coronal plane = vertical plane dividing body into anterior-posterior parts)


The upper lip and philtrum area is displaced posteriorly and superiorly, and reduced in area, especially in the middle part.
The nose becomes narrower along its length, reduces in area and is displaced posteriorly. The tip of the nose moves posteriorly, making the nose become relatively shorter, and the tip is also displaced superiorly, which turns up the tip of the nose.
The cheeks expand in area and are displaced outwards.
The chin reduces in area and is displaced superiorly and posteriorly. The angle of the mandible is displaced toward the middle of the face, and the mandible is reduced in relative length.
The inferior ear attachment is displaced medially whereas the superior ear attachment is displaced inferiorly, leading to an overall rotation of this area in the coronal plane.
"The superior medial orbital margins are displaced superiorly and posteriorly whereas the superior lateral margins are displaced laterally; the lateral margins are displaced laterally."
The medial forehead is displaced anteriorly and expands laterally; the lateral aspects are displaced anteriorly without lateral expansion.
In Fig 8, the rank-ordering along the lines of masculinity-femininity should be obvious, and the reader should now be able to justify the rank-ordering with some precision. Reflecting the global effects of sex hormones, the rank-ordering of the overall physique of these three women along the lines of masculinity-femininity dovetails with that of their faces.



http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/contrast_head.jpg


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/compare1.jpg

http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/compare2.jpg






Fig 8: An example of masculine-to-feminine face shape variation. The leftmost picture in the first row has been taken from the cover of "Amazon.com: Down Came the Rain: My Journey Through Postpartum Depression (9781401301897): Brooke Shields: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413TPJ4bURL.@@AMEPARAM@@413TPJ4bURL (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1401301894/) (adult site).
Torso/Pelvic structure

Controlling for height, women have a smaller rib cage than men and a wider pelvis. Fig 9 shows the importance of a feminine (small) rib cage in achieving an hourglass figure, which the woman shown cannot achieve, even with breast implants.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/rib1.jpg


Fig 9: A masculinized woman with a large rib cage.


In Fig 10, the masculinized woman shown does not have an hourglass figure because of both a narrow pelvis and a broad rib cage, and once again, even breast implants are not going to help this woman achieve an hourglass figure.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/rib2.jpg



Fig 10: A non-overweight, masculinized woman. Note the posing of the pelvic region. Glamour models with a narrow pelvis typically pose in the twisted manner shown in order to make the male-like shape of their pelvic structure less obvious. Picture taken from Karupspc (http://www3.karupspc.com/cgi/click?account=989322&site=1&program=1&landpage=models/gallery1.php)(adult site).
Fig 11 contrasts a glamour model (left) with a high-fashion model (right). The high-fashion model shown is clearly among the more feminine ones compared to the norm. Given that a number of feminine women refuse to pose naked and that the selection of glamour models in some major outlets such as Playboy magazine has been influenced by the high status of high-fashion models (http://www.femininebeauty.info/eating-disorders#playboy), some authors(7) have pointed out that with an average waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) of 0.71, fashion models have an hourglass figure given that Playboy models have an average WHR of 0.68!


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/rib7.jpg


Fig 11: Contrast rib cage relative size between the glamour model (left) and the high-fashion model.


WHRs of 0.71 and 0.68 may not sound that different, but see the discussion of the data provided by Tovee et al. in Table 1 here (http://www.femininebeauty.info/eating-disorders#t1). On the other hand, one look at Fig 12 suffices to show what a feminine WHR is supposed to look like; very feminine WHRs are in the 0.60-0.65 range. Note that the feminine women in Fig 12 have smaller breasts than both the glamour model and the high-fashion model in Fig 11, yet present a more feminine look overall. Furthermore, contrast the masculine arm length of the high-fashion model in Fig 11 (a typical example) with the feminine arm lengths of the glamour models in Fig 12.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/rib3.jpg

Fig 12: A good illustration of what feminine waist and hip proportions are supposed to look like.




By now, the importance of skeletal structure -- as it is shaped by sex hormones -- in the appearance of a feminine, hourglass figure should be obvious. Fig 13 should help make this point clearer as it shows a slender, small-breasted woman that nevertheless has a feminine pelvic region and torso, thanks to a pelvis that is wide enough for an attractive woman and a small rib cage.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/rib6.jpg



Fig 13: A slender woman with small breasts that nevertheless has feminine pelvic and torso proportions due to a feminine skeletal structure. Picture taken from Karupspc (http://www3.karupspc.com/cgi/click?account=989322&site=1&program=1&landpage=models/gallery1.php)(adult site).
Fig 14 addresses sexual dimorphism in pelvic structure. In a standing person, the female pelvis is broader when viewed from the front or side and its vertical length is smaller.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/pelvis.jpg



Fig 14: Sexual dimorphism in the pelvis. The measures provided are referenced with respect to FL (femur length; the femur is the thigh bone) and FHD (femur head diameter) and defined in terms of the points marked as follows.(8) “Anteroposterior diameters: inlet (a, A–B), sacral promontory to dorsomedial border of superior aspect of pubic body; midplane (a, B–C), dorsomedial border of superior aspect of pubic body to lower sacral vertebra. Anteroposterior diameter of midplane was taken [in humans] from transverse line between fourth and fifth sacral vertebra to dorsomedial border of inferior aspect of primary pubic symphysis. Transverse diameters: inlet (b, D–D), maximum distance between lineae terminales, with this diameter being aligned visually to be perpendicular to anteroposterior diameter of inlet; midplane (c, E–E), distance between ischial spines. Posterior spaces: inlet (a, D–F), curved length along linea terminalis from transverse diameter of inlet to intersection with auricular surface of ilium; midplane (a, C–E), point on sacral vertebra used in measurement of anteroposterior diameter of midplane to ischial spine. Anterior spaces: inlet (a, B–D), curved length along linea terminalis from dorsomedial border of superior aspect of pubic body to transverse diameter of inlet; midplane (a, E–H), ischial spine to dorsomedial border of inferior aspect of primary pubic symphysis (a, H). Sacrum: breadth (b, F–F), straight distance across ventral aspect of sacrum where sacrum met linea terminalis when pelvis was articulated; length (b, A–C), curved length from sacral promontory to point on sacral vertebra used in measurement of anteroposterior diameter of midplane; for [I]H. sapiens, sacral length was from sacral promontory to inferior border of fifth sacral vertebra. Other measures: linea terminalis (a, B–F), curved length from dorsomedial border of superior aspect of pubic body to auricular surface of ilium; depth (a, F–I), intersection of linea terminalis and auricular surface of ilium to inner margin on dorsal aspect of ischial tuberosity.”(8) The F and M statistics are reported for Student’s t-test and Wilcoxon-Mann-Whitney test, respectively. The color illustrations have been taken from Sobotta Atlas of Human Anatomy (http://www.lww.com/product/?0-7817-3403-7).
Fig 15 shows an example of a feminine backside. Figures 16 and 17 illustrate the folly of judging femininity via breast size alone. As seen in Fig 16, it is fairly common to come across large-breasted women with backsides that are flatter than the feminine norm. Similarly, in Fig 17, the obese women not only have massive breasts but also a large pelvis, yet their backsides are flatter than the feminine norm. The women shown in Figures 16 and 17 have sufficient estradiol to produce large breasts, but their testosterone-to-estradiol ratio is elevated, and development under above-average levels of testosterone is responsible for a masculinized WHR and a masculinized pelvis in these women, and the elevated testosterone levels are also correlated with excessive abdominal fat in the women shown in Fig 17. See here (http://www.femininebeauty.info/eatingdisorders.htm#whr) for the relevant citations concerning elevated testosterone levels in obese women or women with an elevated WHR and also evidence that large breasts are diagnostic of femininity if accompanied by a small waist and -- by extrapolation -- a feminine backside [given the global effects of sex hormones]. The feminine protrusion of the backside in normal women is mainly a function of pelvic bone structure, although in some African and aboriginal populations, fat mass can make a notable contribution to the prominence of the backside in women.



http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/eva.jpg


Fig 15: An example of a feminine backside. Picture taken from FTV girls (shttp://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=920029-0000&PA=1076570)(adult site).

http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/bib.breasts.1.jpg





Fig 16: Two examples of women with large breasts that nevertheless have backsides that are flatter than the feminine norm. Pictures taken from Score magazine (http://www.scoreland.com/pt=scrg12816) (adult site).

http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/big.breasts.3.jpg

Fig 17: Two examples of obese women with large breasts, yet backsides that are flatter than the feminine norm. Pictures taken from Score magazine (http://www.scoreland.com/pt=scrg12816) (adult site).
Another example that should help one appreciate the importance of judging masculinity-femininity from overall appearance is shown below. Which of the two women in the following picture looks more feminine?


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/whr.1s.jpg (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/whr.1.jpg)


Fig 18. Melissa from Teen Stars Magazine (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=924891&PA=1257881&BAN=1&HTML=http://www.teenstarsmagazine.com/?PRO=CCBILL) (left) and Ludmila from Domai (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=900004-0000&PA=1076760); click for larger image.


Now look at the following two pictures of the women in Fig 18 and answer who is more feminine.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/whr.2.jpg

Fig 19. Ludmila from Domai (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=900004-0000&PA=1076760) (left) and Melissa from Teen Stars Magazine (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=924891&PA=1257881&BAN=1&HTML=http://www.teenstarsmagazine.com/?PRO=CCBILL); links lead to adult sites.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/whr.3.jpg
Fig 20. Ludmila from Domai (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=900004-0000&PA=1076760) (left) and Melissa from Teen Stars Magazine (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=924891&PA=1257881&BAN=1&HTML=http://www.teenstarsmagazine.com/?PRO=CCBILL); links lead to adult sites.





In Fig 18, the small breasts and large nose of the light woman suggest reduced feminization and greater masculinization, respectively, but the dark woman has broader shoulders, narrower hips, a smaller backside, a more masculine waist-to-hip ratio, a stronger chin and more masculine hands and feet (not clear in the pictures shown). Thus, the appropriate conclusion is that that the light woman is more feminine, and her large nose and small breasts do not represent greater masculinization and lesser feminization, respectively, but other factors, instead.
On the other hand, when one comes across physiques like those shown in Fig 21, there is little doubt as to where they stand on the masculine-feminine scale.


http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/feminine.women.jpg

Fig 21. Dasha from Model flats (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=923818-0000&PA=1275059&HTML=http://www.modelflats.com/free-tour.html) (left) and Elkie from Simonscans (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=912363-0000&PA=1078128); links lead to adult sites.




[B]References


Rosas, A., and Bastir, M., Thin-plate spline analysis of allometry and sexual dimorphism in the human craniofacial complex, Am J Phys Anthropol, 117, 236 (2002).
Walrath, D. E., Turner, P., and Bruzek, J., Reliability test of the visual assessment of cranial traits for sex determination, Am J Phys Anthropol, 125, 132 (2004).
Buikstra, J., Ubelaker, D., and Aftandilian, D. A., Standards for data collection from human skeletal remains, Arkansas Archaeological Survey, Fayetteville, AK (1994).
Ferembach, D., Schwidetzky, I., and Stloukal, M., Recommendations for age and sex diagnoses of skeletons, J Hum Evol, 9, 517 (1980).
Fink, B., Grammer, K., Mitteroecker, P., Gunz, P., Schaefer, K., Bookstein, F. L., and Manning, J. T., Second to fourth digit ratio and face shape, Proc R Soc B, 272, 1995 (2005).
Hennessy, R. J., McLearie, S., Kinsella, A., Waddington, J. L. Facial surface analysis by 3D laser scanning and geometric morphometrics in relation to sexual dimorphism in cerebral--craniofacial morphogenesis and cognitive function, J Anat, 207, 283 (2005).
Tovee, M. J., Mason, S. M., Emery, J. L., McCluskey, S. E., and Cohen-Tovee, E. M., Supermodels: stick insects or hourglasses? Lancet, 350, 1474 (1997).
Tague, R. G., Big-bodied males help us recognize that females have big pelves, Am J Phys Anthropol, 127, 392 (2005).




http://www.femininebeauty.info/feminine-vs-masculine

[natina]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/masculinization-feminization-in-men

Feminization and masculinization in the looks of men

Submitted by Admin on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 05:01This topic doesn’t really belong at this site, but some readers have wanted me to write on this issue, to be fair if not anything else. I agree that it is fair to also address men at some length. I mulled including the following contents in a zipped file for anyone interested, but decided that it is best to post it online. Before I begin, I wish to say that just as I have nothing against masculinized women, I have nothing against effeminate/feminized men.
The feminine vs. masculine page (http://www.femininebeauty.info/fem.vs.masculine.htm) within this site extensively addresses skull and face shape variation resulting from masculinization and feminization. There is no need to repeat it here; some pictures will suffice. The reader can also download the demo version of facegen modeler (http://www.facegen.com/) and see, from multiple angles, how increasing masculinization alters the face. The demo version of this program allows one to do everything except for exporting to external 3D formats and displaying the ‘SI’ logo on the forehead.
The following example is an easy contrast between an effeminate face and a masculine one.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/leo.and.burt.jpg
Fig. 1. Leonardo DiCaprio (left) and Burt Lancaster.
Confounds in judging the masculinity of men

As in women, men’s masculinity should be judged from overall looks. One should beware of the following issues.
Gracilization as pseudo-feminization
Fineness of facial features should not be confounded with feminization. Northern European men often have fine facial features as in the following Swedish male, but his overall face shape is clearly masculine.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/swede2.jpg
Fig. 2. A man from Sweden.
Bizarre combination of multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics
There are some scenarios in men that are difficult to find if not non-existent in women. For example, the following individual has a masculine overall face shape but an effeminate body. His body is not effeminate because he is short, but because of its shape. He is not overall describable as either masculine or feminine/effeminate or even normal.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/tom.cruise.jpg
Fig. 3. Tom Cruise.
If one had a few masculine-looking features but were overall effeminate, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary since sex hormones are not the only factors shaping looks, but observing multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics in the same individual is curious. Such bizarre combinations could result from a number of scenarios. For instance, some physical features are shaped to a significant extent during prenatal development but others are mostly shaped after birth. Therefore, if a male’s testes are not able to produce high levels of androgens such as testosterone but this person is nevertheless exposed to high levels of testosterone in the womb because his mother produced high levels of androgens when she was pregnant, then he will manifest a curious mix of masculine and not so masculine features. An example could be a specific finger-length ratio talked about shortly being masculine even though the overall body shape isn’t. In another scenario, prenatal developmental disturbances caused by excess testosterone exposure will lead to a strange mix of hypermasculine, normally masculine and hypomasculine/effeminate characteristics.
Muscular build
Since having larger muscles is a more masculine-looking feature and there are very easy ways to increase muscle size without being a masculine man -- anabolic androgenic steroids, beta-adrenergic agonists and to a limited extent relatively harmless substances such as creatine monohydrate -- caution is advised in judging the masculinity of a man based on his muscularity. Even without these ergogenic aids, a less masculine man who regularly lifts heavy weights could be packing more muscle mass than a more masculine man who doesn’t do weightlifting. Some illustrative examples of professional male bodybuilders -- steroid-induced freaks -- will clarify this issue.
Do you see a hypermasculine man below?

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.1.jpg
Fig. 4. Richard Gaspari.
Think again. Look carefully at Gaspari’s shoulder width; it is unimpressive.
Richard Gaspari doesn’t have a masculine face.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.2s.jpg (http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.2.jpg)
Fig. 5. Richard Gaspari; click for context.
Richard Gaspari also does not have particularly narrow hips.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.3.jpg
Fig. 6. Richard Gaspari.
The following picture shows Markus Ruhl, and is a good example of what very masculine shoulder width looks like. However, note that Markus Ruhl doesn’t have a masculine face. Also note that Markus Ruhl doesn’t have particularly narrow hips.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/markus.ruhl.jpg
Fig. 7. Markus Ruhl.
Again, look at the following individual; very large muscles, but non-narrow hips and a face that is not so masculine.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/greg.kovacs.jpg
Fig. 8. Greg Kovacs.
It should be easy to look at the following comparisons and infer who has a more masculine build. Who has the combination of wider shoulders, narrower hips and a smaller backside?

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/jay.and.dennis.jpg
Fig. 9. Jay Cultler (left) and Dennis Wolf.
The following individual is a masculine male from head to toe: masculine face, wide shoulders, narrow hips.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/dorian.yates.1.jpg
Fig. 10. Dorian Yates.
I don’t have pictures of Dorian Yates as a young man, but judging from the following picture, he was close to looking like a Greek God in the flesh.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/dorian.yates.2.jpg
Fig. 11. Dorian Yates.
The take home message should be clear. Look at multiple skeletal cues to judge the masculinity of men. Some bodybuilders take human growth hormone (HGH), too, and on some counts HGH changes face shape in the same direction as testosterone. So this can confound judging masculinity, too.
If one observes obese men, they will often have heavy/thick bones and also a large amount of muscle mass, but obese men are on average among the least masculine of men in terms of testosterone levels, estrogen levels, phallus size, etc. So, some people have a propensity to pack on lots of body mass; not just fat tissue, but also muscles and bone mass. The physical constitution that predisposes one toward developing a corpulent/rotund body has been classically described as endomorphy, said to be a somatotype or somatype (build). Other somatotypes include mesomorphy (tendency toward muscularity and masculine skeletal proportions) and ectomorphy (tendency toward a long, lean and thin body development). The extent to which people lean toward these builds varies. A man who leans toward an endomorphic build to a significant but not excessive degree (e.g., Greg Kovacs above) could pack on a large amount of muscle mass using the pharmaceutical agents described above and burn off some undesirable body fat by taking alpha-adrenergic stimulators, but this wouldn’t be making him a masculine man.
Another confound affects an important structure discussed next.
For the ladies


http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/for.the.ladies.jpg
Fig. 12. Stuff that matters.
I previously showed the following graph about the relation between mesomorphy/muscular build and body hairiness. Starting from an effeminate physical build, as the physique becomes naturally more masculine, body hairiness increases, which appears intuitive, but beyond a certain point, greater body hairiness corresponds to a weaker physical build. A plausible explanation of the relationship is that beyond a certain level of androgen exposure, a male fetus is developmentally disturbed, resulting in a weak physical build, but since the individual produces elevated androgens, simple structures like body hair show the effect of elevated androgens.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/hair.and.build.jpg
Fig. 13. Relation between body hair and muscular build.
It is almost certain that a similar relationship exists between muscular build and phallus length, too. The reasons are that the phallus is set well onto its developmental path when the male is in the womb, and this growth is strongly dependent on the same androgen that is a major determinant of body hair growth: dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is derived from testosterone and is more potent than it; it serves to amplify the effect of testosterone on a tissue. The phallus is a simple structure, and is expected to show a dose-response relationship with androgens/DHT over a broader range than the more complex structure of the overall musculo-skeletal build. Hence, the most naturally muscular men are not necessarily well-endowed. Some of the best endowed men may have an otherwise skinny/weak physical build, but such men will usually have multiple masculine features (e.g., a short, skinny man with lots of body hair and a deep, manly voice).
There are some developmental genes (homeobox genes; Hox A, Hox B) that affect both digits (fingers/toes) and the phallus. There is a useful proxy for prenatal testosterone exposure: the index finger-length ratio to ring finger-length ratio or 2nd finger-length ratio to 4th finger-length ratio (2D:4D). The useful measure is on the right hand as it is more sensitive to sex steroids. 2D:4D is established prenatally. With increasing masculinization, the index finger becomes shorter than the ring finger, i.e., 2D:4D diminishes with increasing masculinization. Evidence for this as well as other correlates of 2D:4D can be read about here (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1409789).
So how could one be reasonably confident that a given man is healthy, masculine and well-endowed without looking at his phallus and giving him a medical exam? The exclusion and selection criteria should be obvious. Exclude the obese/overweight, those with excess abdominal fat even if they are okay elsewhere (this is a diseased constitution) and men with a strange mix of hypermasculine/masculine, normally masculine and hypomasculine/effeminate characteristics. Select men with broad shoulders, a tiny waist, narrow hips and a small backside; and go for men in whom the index finger is noticeably/strikingly shorter than the ring finger. The ideal masculine man would have been exposed to high levels of androgens during prenatal development, developed under high testosterone levels post-natally, possess high baseline testosterone levels and have had no trouble handling the high testosterone levels. These exclusion and selection criteria increase the statistical odds of making the right inference; there are no guarantees; an obese man may be packing a member that would put most men to shame.
Comment

As in women, it is important to look at multiple characteristics in men to assess how masculine/feminine they are. Unlike in women, it is harder to judge how masculine a man is because of the ease with which less masculine men can pack on more muscle mass given current technology, and the phenomenon of some men with a mix of multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics. Men’s masculinity assessment should focus on multiple skeletal characteristics/proportions.



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Comments

# 1 | Submitted by brenda on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 11:42 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2430#comment-2430)
Hey Eric, this is really cool. You should post more articles like this. Why don't you compare men who look effeminate, who look normal, with above average masculinity, and those who are hypermasculine?




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#2 | Submitted by BSP on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 20:19 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2434#comment-2434)
Is it really in the realm of normal sexuality to find people that extremely muscular attractive?




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#3 | Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 22:27 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2436#comment-2436)
Dorian Yates does not look like a Greek God; he just looks like a freak, as well as the rest of the men on this page, with the exception of the first four.
Leo is too feminine for my tastes, but he's still a good-looking man, Burt is alright, and Tom Cruise would look close to perfect if it weren't for his nose.
"Fineness of facial features should not be confounded with feminization. Northern European men often have fine facial features as in the following Swedish male, but his overall face shape is clearly masculine."
Not really. He looks quite effeminate, Erik, especially his nose.
Just curious - what do you think is the definition of a "pretty boy?" Do you consider pretty boys to be attractive men who look feminine (Ryan Phillipe, for example) or attractive men who look masculine, and are called "pretty boys" only because they look good (Fabio Cannavaro)?
My friend calls any guy she thinks is attractive "pretty," even when they're very masculine, and that confuses me since I associate the word "pretty" only with women.




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#4 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Sun, 11/18/2007 - 00:36 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2451#comment-2451)
Brenda: Going into details about men isn’t what this site is about. The article should do a decent job of emphasizing the importance of skeletal structure in judging men’s masculinity in light of various confounds.
BPS: Some women find the extreme muscularity shown above very appealing, and this is not so unusual, but most women find extremely muscular men unappealing or repulsive.
Sarah: I have told you before not to bother with understanding masculine vs. feminine variation. The Swedish male does not look effeminate. Discussing a “pretty boy” with you would be a waste of time. The term can apply to effeminate but appealing (to those using the term) men or cute men or men who are masculine but have smooth/blemishless skin, nice hair, and a well-groomed plus generally pleasing appearance.




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#5 | Submitted by Not From Twisty's on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 10:47 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2472#comment-2472)
I always thought Christopher Walken looked like a woman. People say he's 'creepy' ect, I'm like nope, he's f.e.m.i.n.i.z.e.d. yikes!
http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/Christopher_Walken%20-%201%20-%20Hairspray.jpg




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#6 | Submitted by Not From Twisty's on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 11:14 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2473#comment-2473)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Femdog/move.jpg
Apparently David Bowie moved on from his androgynous phase. His hips say otherwise. Good god.




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#7 | Submitted by Twisty's on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 13:03 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2483#comment-2483)
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/75442629.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19309EBFDFE8F65174D155CBF5A321FA153
walken again




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#8 | Submitted by brenda on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 14:43 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2486#comment-2486)
So why don't you make a website on this? This is just as interesting as feminine beauty, or maybe even more for women. I don't think the feminized men will complain as much as the masculinized women who chance upon this site. Anyway, does the ring finger-index finger ratio as indicator of testosterone levels also apply to women?




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#9 | Submitted by BSP on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 23:30 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2603#comment-2603)
That reminds me Erik- you mention how robustness shouldn't be confounded with feminization. I've always suspected this, but I've never fully noticed it until recently when you pointed it out. It comes back to that one white nationalist blog that prompted me to write to you- he made that mistake, which led him to dismiss nearly all non-white females as hideous. Still, why would you say that women in western countries with large jaws and cheekbones are so rare in fashion, while there's a strong mixture of it in east asian countries? Are their certain extremities on these features where they're considered unattractive outside femininity, or are these considered feminine no matter what, regardless of their size? And exactly what contributes to these facial features looking masculine if size plays no role? It's easy to see, but I'm not sure of the term.




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#10 | Submitted by BSP on Sun, 12/02/2007 - 02:14 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2605#comment-2605)
Also, would you say there's a lack of models and the like with large jaws and cheekbones in the US? (though strongly feminine as well?) What could this be attributed to? There seems to be alot of variation when it comes to east asia in terms of that, but they're just pretty uncommon in western markets.
Also, one other thing to note about your site- in that one 7-part series, when you're comparing asian and european models to women from tribal and tradition societies, that's pretty..... poor. "Attractive" individuals are hard to come by in those societies due to how tightly-knit those populations are and thus leading to little pressure for truly attractive traits. There's also how those stressful lifestyles accentuate ageing and testosterone levels, contributing to greater masculinity.




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#11 | Submitted by BSP on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 22:44 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2642#comment-2642)
Erik, what do you make of this?
http://www.sensualism.com/beauty/index.html
I've heard there's somewhat of a debate over this in regards to male beauty. And what's the deal with that comment about facial hair? That seems rather neutral, unless in extremities.




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#12 | Submitted by BSP on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 22:58 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2643#comment-2643)
I think a good way to look at that would be to see what the maximum size of these are in normal human phenotype variation- not sure how that's possible though.




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#13 | Submitted by justagirl on Tue, 12/11/2007 - 01:40 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2673#comment-2673)
can u please please show me pix of guys who are not body builders. I want to see what a "normal" masculine guy looks like, and more face pictures please.
show a range please. show a skinny guy who is masc. vs. a skinny guy who is fem.
show a chubby guy who is masc. and a chubby guy who is fem.
a short man and a tall man, please.
and of course an average guy who is masc and one who is fem.
show body and face.
and graphs dont do much for me, can you show pictures of normal mens body hair pattern, over masc. body hair, and can u describe or show the result of too much exposure to male hormones (fetus) in an adult
you have also focused mostly on the masc./fem. characteristics of Caucasoid males can you show these effects in other races if possible
thanks would appreciate this so soooo much!!!




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# 14 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 03:52 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3341#comment-3341)
Brenda: I don’t have the time or motive to come up with an equivalent site that addresses men. I can barely handle this site. The finger length find also applies to women.
BSP: There are plenty of women with prominent cheekbones among Western fashion models, and some of them also have large/wide jaws, but on average their jaws and cheekbones will be smaller than in East Asians because they descend from populations with smaller faces. The features that contribute to a masculine or feminine look are primarily shape variables; size is a factor only when a change in size alters shape variables (allometry) that are also altered in different ways by androgens and estrogens.
You shouldn’t be looking at pictures of European/Asian models and African tribals on the same page as a type of comparison. The comparisons are based on anthropological data. The pictures are merely illustrative examples of the arguments in the text. It was necessary to avoid using pictures of sub-Saharan Africans with other-population mixture, which explains the use of tribals’ pictures, though some models of predominantly sub-Saharan African ancestry are also used. As to attractive individuals hard to come by in tribal societies, this is your opinion, and your explanation that this is so because of how tight-knit they are doesn’t apply. Why should attractiveness in a mate be less important among tribals? Whereas chronic stressors will cause premature aging, I did not address skin health. I have mostly focused on skeletal features. Chronic stress decreases testosterone levels in men but does not have a clear effect on testosterone levels in women.
The sensualism site has cited the results of a study on male facial attractiveness in relation to how masculine or feminine it is, but there have been many such studies and there is no clear find to sum up. Some such studies have reported a preference for more overall masculine faces, others for less overall masculine faces, and some others have documented little relevance of masculinity-femininity in the neighborhood of average norms. In many of these studies there has been a confound between masculinization and robusticity. Findings are clearer for preferences regarding individual features such as longer chin length and higher cheekbone placement in men, both associated with greater masculinization. There are also finds that women prefer more masculine looking men when they are close to ovulating, more attractive women prefer more masculine looking men, and more promiscuous women prefer more masculine looking men.
Justagirl: I do not have the time to come up with the images you are looking for. This website is not about men, but I was able to come up with this article to be fair. Keep in mind the skeletal proportions issue. Among thin men, those with more overall masculine skeletal proportions will tend to be more masculine, just as this will be the case among obese men or men in any specific non-European population. What constitutes average, below average or above average body hairiness depends upon the population considered, and you will have to observe enough men in a given population to get an idea of the distribution of body hairiness in it.




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#15 | Submitted by . on Tue, 04/29/2008 - 19:33 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3415#comment-3415)
I read somewhere, that black man have higher testosterone levels,hence broader shoulders and narrower hips .
Is it true Erik ???
The top bodybuilder is Ronnie Coleman -who's black .
Jay Cutler -white one is next .
Dont know ,but it seems easier for black man to build muscle ?
I read some journal that says it .
Broader shoulders ,and larger penises and also longer slenderer calf muscle ideal for sprinting events .
True ????




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#16 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Thu, 05/01/2008 - 02:38 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3420#comment-3420)
dot: Whereas Ronnie Coleman was the #1 bodybuilder for many years and a massively muscular individual at that, the most muscular bodybuilders are disproportionately white males. White males have a muscle bulk advantage but the following disadvantages compared to West African males when it comes to bodybuilding competitions: higher subcutaneous fat (leading to less definition), fuller muscle bellies (leading to reduced separation between adjacent muscles) and lighter skin (reflects more light and doesn’t bring out shape minutiae). The skin color problem is easily addressed via a fake tan, but the other problems remain. Many really massive white bodybuilders never make it to the top because they just cannot get “cut” or defined enough. For instance, Greg Kovacs shown above was much more massive at his peak than Ronnie Coleman (and 3 inches taller, too), but never came close to winning a Mr. Olympia. Another bodybuilder shown above, Markus Ruhl, has competed at a bulk much greater than Ronnie Coleman’s in spite of being an inch shorter. West Africans tend to have more bone mass than whites, and so you can guess how much more muscular some of the white bodybuilders really are.
The evidence regarding testosterone levels is unlcear. The only testosterone-related study representative of the American population did not find a difference in testosterone levels between American white men and African-American men (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17456570). In this study, if you look at the unadjusted values, it seems that African-American men tend to have slightly higher testosterone levels, but this was not statistically significant, and adjustment for age, BMI, smoking, alcohol consumption and physical activity revealed no statistically significant differences between these two groups. However, more of the testosterone was being converted to DHT (more potent than testosterone; it amplifies the effect of testosterone) in white men, and African-Americans had higher estradiol levels. This study did not report on the distribution of the sensitivity of the androgen receptor to testosterone in the groups, but there have been one or two reports that forms of androgen receptors that are the most sensitive to androgens such as testosterone are somewhat more prevalent among African-Americans (greater sensitivity translates to stronger effect of testosterone on target tissues). So a clear picture awaits more research.
Sub-Saharan Africans tend to have narrower hips than whites, but this appears to be an ethnic feature unrelated to testosterone levels. I am not aware of shoulder width differences among these two groups of men.
The evidence regarding penis length differences between whites and Africans is unclear (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17355371) (also this (http://www.enlargepenisguide.com/images/fig5.gif)) though I think it is slightly longer in the Africans.
The slender calf muscles, more precisely calf muscles with shorter bellies, are better suited to sprinting because of a greater proportion of fast-twitch fibers, but this also makes them less suitable for long-distance running.




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#17 | Submitted by Father Adil on Fri, 07/11/2008 - 12:59 | Has anyone seen this man - (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3537#comment-3537)
Has anyone seen this man - the music artist David Jordan? It looks as if he has an androgynous face.
YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh3wSMM_nbE)




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#18 | Submitted by Roy on Sun, 07/13/2008 - 16:37 | Population testosterone Rohrmann et al (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3540#comment-3540)
Evo and Proud:More on Rohrmann et al has taken this study apart.
The subject is central to Peter Frost's work and (as you say) peripheral to your superbly executed site, however I am a little surprised you did not notice some anomalies - testosterone increasing with age especialy - your too trusting.




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#19 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Mon, 07/14/2008 - 19:44 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3545#comment-3545)
Roy: The Rohrmann et al. study on testosterone levels in a nationally representative sample of Americans reported values on a cross-sectional sample and Table 3, which reported the hormone levels by age (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/rohrmann.gif), listed values that were adjusted for age, body fat levels and other factors such as smoking, physical activity, etc. If they had reported unadjusted values, you would have seen an age-related decline. The results were:
Quote:


Total testosterone levels by age (tendency):White males: 20-44 > 45-69 or 70+
African-American males: 45-69 > 20-44 > 70+
Mexican-American males: 70+ > 20-44 > 45-69
If they look odd, keep in mind that you are looking at a cross-sectional sample and values adjusted for body fat levels, age and other factors.




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#20 | Submitted by Roy on Tue, 07/15/2008 - 09:41 | Rohrmann et al rejoinder (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3549#comment-3549)
I think you are making the same point rebutted here in the comments at Evo and Proud
" Your referring to the linear regression model... (but)the serum concentrations of each age group as listed in table 3 'Serum concentrations of sex steriod hormones'.. are simply geometric means. Yes the age ajusted linear regression model failed to find a black-white difference. There are two reasons.First testosterone levels do not decline linearly with age. The decline is much steeper in the mid to late twenties and is steeper for blacks than for whites.
...the black-white difference is wider in the 45-69 year olds. That is to be expected if T levels are higher in 45-69 year old black men than in 20-44 year old black men. Both of these findings indicate that a disproportionate number of high testostrone individuals were removed from the younger age group."




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#21 | Submitted by Roy on Tue, 07/15/2008 - 10:19 | Rohrmann et al rejoinder continued (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3550#comment-3550)
"The 'adjustment for age' in Table 3 is the breakdown of the data into three age groups.This point is explained in the Statistical Analysis section:
'We evaluated racial/ethnic differences in the hormones and SHBH (a)overall after adjusting for age and (b) within three age catagories reflecting hypothesized hormonal transitions though life; early adulthood(20-44 years old), mid-adulthood (45-69 years old), and late adulthood(70+ years old'.




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#22 | Submitted by Roy on Wed, 07/16/2008 - 17:51 | bodybuilding and an apology (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3554#comment-3554)
An authority on bodybuilding said blacks had an advantage over whites in the colour of their skin. Whites must agree, some of the them apply so much tanning solution they look like Al Jolson.
I commented on your citing Rohrmann in a superior tone, Erik that stuff is way over my head I can only understand P.Frosts conclusions, regression analysis ect. is beyond me. I forgot some people like to work things out for themselves and have the expertise to do so. Please don't waste time on this issue.




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#23 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 06:37 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3575#comment-3575)
Burt Lancaster has a lack of baldness, more importantly his lower lip is too big, how about replacing him with http://toddmecklem.com/Lawrence_Tierney_425.jpg




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#24 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 12:19 | Sexual selection for less threatening looks in men (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3576#comment-3576)
Sexual selection gives men relatively shorter upper faces for their breadth compared to females http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000710 I have seen some photos of the XYY Syndrome afflicted who had very long upper faces.




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#25 | Submitted by Roy on Sat, 07/26/2008 - 17:15 | Photogenic confound (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3588#comment-3588)
Using leading men has a confound associated with it; photogenic people such as Leo and especialy Burt tend to have rather large faces and heads (eg Marilyn Monroe). Lancaster's facial skeleton is robust for sure, I just don't think that the masculine face should have thicker hair and a much bigger lower lip.




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#26 | Submitted by Roy on Sat, 07/26/2008 - 18:04 | Gracilization in Northern Europeans (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3589#comment-3589)
Looking masculine could have the reproductively benificial rational of being attractive to women (and perhaps intimidating other men), but for much of evolutionary time men were in short supply especialy in northern Europe so one would expect this relaxed selection of men.
Relaxed sexual selection would result in men looking less masculine; being in short supply they did the choosing and the women were selected for attractiveness, which as you say is feminimity largely.
Given that north European men exibit gracilization how can you be so sure that this is pseudo-femininity. Might it just be the price paid for more feminine beauty in north Europe. The finger ratio for blonds is said to be higher.
Mather,F.,Manning,JT.,&Bundred,PE Evidence for blond hair as a correlate of high prenatal oestrogen prenal(unpublished)on Evo and Proud




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#27 | Submitted by Roy on Tue, 07/29/2008 - 14:24 | Walken - Tierney (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3603#comment-3603)
Christopher Walken might be a better choice for the least masculine face. Top catwalk models may be masculine but I don't think Leonardo DeCaprio could have made it as a top leading man if he looked effeminate. The most striking thing about him is his very short upper face which is appealing to women (see Sexual selection for less threatening looks in men) above. A study on female assesment of male face shape (Johnston ,Victor S. et al 2001) found that moderately masculine features are associated with an attractive , exciting, virile, healthy and protective man. When the shape became too masculine their perception turned negative and the man was seen to be threatening, volatile, controlling, manipulative, and selfish. (quoted from Fair Women, Dark men ) Laurence Tierney had a long upper face and conformed to the perceptions in real life. Maybe you could put find someone to replace DeCaprio




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#28 | Submitted by Typo on Wed, 07/30/2008 - 05:58 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3604#comment-3604)
Story, last paragraph, first line - "Unlikely women"




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#29 | Submitted by Roy on Wed, 07/30/2008 - 07:23 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3605#comment-3605)
My last word, I think it is a tactical mistake to use DeCaprio as a clear cut example of an effeminate face, it will hurt this sites credibility with many women who might agree with you about fashion models. Just as his broad jaw (which women like) makes his chin look more pointed, his large head makes his lower face look shorter than it is - until someone is beside him http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2005/gallery/beautifulcouples/12bundchen.jpg his taste is improving http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k199/nunung_2006/2322-bar_rafaeli04.jpg




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#30 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 22:49 | Comment on Peter Frost (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3609#comment-3609)
Roy: If you are going to criticize some point, then don’t sign off as “evo and proud” because at first I assumed that you were describing yourself. Link to the criticism.
Here are the two links on testosterone and ethnicity by Peter Frost you were referencing –
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/03/testosterone-and-human-variation.html
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/04/more-on-rohrmann-et-al.html
The first link explains the context or why it is important for Peter Frost to maintain that West/Central Africans and African-Americans have higher testosterone levels than white men.
You said that you are not familiar with regression analysis. So how can you be so sure that Peter Frost has refuted my arguments? Let us look at his arguments.
Testosterone and white male – West African male differences
Frost has a strange interpretation of age-adjusted values. When someone talks about reporting values that have been adjusted for age, it means that all ages have been taken into consideration. Just because the authors choose to present the hormone level statistics by three broad age groups, it doesn’t mean that the hormone values are adjusted for membership in one of the three age groups. A related point by him is that “the black-white difference in t levels shrinks after 24 years of age, is gone by the early 30s, and seems to reverse at older ages,” but given that the literature has shown results all over the map and null finds, how can he use one study, using non-representative sampling, to insist on this statement so definitively? And the reason he brings out this point is because of his misinterpretation that the age adjustment was by broad age group rather than all ages. This mistake also prompts him to invoke [small] differences in median ages between the groups.
He ignores various kinds of adjustments on the data. For instance, let us say that over a 10-year period, an adult man reduces his average daily production of testosterone but also gains percentage body fat, and that the percentage increase in body fat is greater than the percentage decrease in testosterone. Thus, at the end of the 10-year period, this man would be producing more testosterone when adjusted for level of body fat even though his actual testosterone values have declined. And again, the sample is cross-sectional.
He does not address the higher estrogen levels in African-American men, something that numerous studies have reported. He also does not address higher AAG levels in white men, which is an indicator of greater conversion of testosterone to DHT (roughly conceptualize DHT as a more potent form of testosterone). He has pointed to higher rates of prostate cancer among African-American men as suggestive of higher testosterone levels but it is known that estrogens are a major culprit in up to half of prostate cancers (http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/100/11/815).
Rohrmann et al. indicated that they only had access to 1479 out of 1998 blood samples. Frost speculates that the unavailable samples had been removed for further study after they were found to have been infected by a herpes virus (sexually transmitted). Then he figured that the African-Americans, being more promiscuous, were more likely to have gotten infected, and inferred that their greater promiscuity was a result of higher testosterone levels i.e., the higher testosterone African-American men were disproportionately not analyzed. This is wild speculation, but more importantly it reflects Frost’s unfamiliarity with the literature.
Look at the following from Booth et al. (1999) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10196726). They examined testosterone levels and various behaviors in a random sample of 4,393 men that had served in the U.S. army during the years 1965 and 1971. The average age was 37 and the age range was 30-48. These men were representative of American men in the same age group. The first dataset indicates the percentage increase in the likelihood of sexually transmitted disease and promiscuity with increasing testosterone levels. The testosterone levels are reported in nanograms of testosterone per deciliter of blood (ng/dl). The great majority of men lie in the 300-1000 ng/dl range. We observe that with every 200 ng/dl increase in testosterone, the likelihood of having experienced a sexually transmitted infection increased by 16.5%, which is appreciable.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/booth.1.gif
Percentage increase in behavior(s) for a range of increase in testosterone levels in men.
But what proportion of the variation in sexually transmitted infections and promiscuity was accounted for by testosterone? Here is where regression analysis enters in, but you don’t have to worry about understanding it. Just look at the R2 values below.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/booth.2.gif
The R2 value explains the proportion of the variation in the dependent variable (behavior) accounted for by the variable(s) entered (age and testosterone in our case). For sexually transmitted infections, this value is a mere 0.006 or 0.6%, and for promiscuity this value is a mere 0.010 or 1%. In other words, testosterone is accounting for very little of the variance in promiscuity and sexually transmitted diseases in the sample (because too many factors affect these variables, which in turn suggests that it is a naïve assumption on Frost’s part to assume that greater promiscuity in African-Americans is due to higher testosterone levels). So even if we assume that all unavailable blood samples in the Rohrmann et al. study were removed due to herpes infection and that African-Americans were strongly overrepresented in the omitted samples, it wouldn’t follow that the omissions have prevented the average testosterone levels in African-American men from registering above the white average.
Frost has made weak arguments, and I will have more to say in other replies to your comments.




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#31 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:00 | Burt Lancaster vs. Leonardo DiCaprio (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3610#comment-3610)
Roy: You mentioned lack of baldness in Burt Lancaster. How is this relevant to masculinization? Male pattern baldness results from a combination of genetic susceptibility and androgens, but if genetic susceptibility is there then even men with low testosterone levels will become bald.
You also mentioned that Burt has thicker lower lips that Leonardo and hence is not a good example of a masculine male face but this point is irrelevant. Faces are shaped by many factors apart from sex hormones and it is the overall appearance that matters. A more overall masculine face is not necessarily more masculine looking on every count; it simply needs to look more masculine in the majority of feature comparisons.
You cited a study showing that “sexual selection gives men relatively shorter upper faces for their breadth compared to females,” better stated as men have wider face for the same upper face height, where upper face height is roughly the distance between the point where the forehead meets the nose and the upper lip. You cited this find because this is how Leonardo differs from Burt. The authors (Weston et al.; Biometric Evidence that Sexual Selection Has Shaped the Hominin Face (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000710#pone.0000710.s007)) have chosen to present their data in a poor manner, and it is misleading. Their find can be summed up in this figure showing that men have wider faces but similar upper face height compared to women (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/weston.example.jpg). Their example contrasts a normal woman with an effeminate man. On the other hand, I have cited studies (see the feminine vs. masculine page) where masculinization makes the face shape narrower (example 1 (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/face.shape.gif), example 2 (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/laser.scan.1.jpg)). So why the difference? The studies that I cited used European individuals whereas the Weston et al. study used Southern African populations, and I wonder if this is relevant because the Khoi-San people appear facially less sexually dimorphic than Europeans, and sexual dimorphism of individual features is not necessarily similar across populations. But importantly, in the studies that I cited, the results are shown for face shape, which is evaluated after adjusting for face size, and face size was adjusted by computing centroid size (http://www.femininebeauty.info/marquardt-phi-mask-shape-comparison). But Weston et al. have a poor proxy for face size, namely the basicranial or basion-nasion length (shown by the distance between ba and n in this figure (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/basicranial.length.ba.n.gif)) rather than computing the centroid size from several such inter-landmark distances. In addition, even for the same face size, the basion-nasion length is increased with masculinization (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph.gif). Their statistics comprise of comparing how all combinations of the relative growths of two inter-landmark distances change from childhood to adulthood in men and women. So what they found is that the absolute width of the male face at the level of the cheekbones is greater than in the female whereas the absolute height of the upper face is similar. Since sexual selection acts on how all parts of the face fit together, it is clear that they should evaluate changes in a particular feature in relation to the rest of the face (e.g., face size as in centroid size). For instance, increasing the length of the lower jaw in men will make the face look overall narrower.
Another issue is that the upper face height metric used by the authors comprises of nose length + distance between nose tip and upper lip. In both illustrations that I have shown, where the comparisons keep face size constant, you can see that the distance between nose tip and upper lip increases with masculinization. One of these figures even shows that the region where the nose meets the forehead moves slightly upward with masculinization. The nose length comprises of the bony part plus the soft cartilage part. For the same face size, the cartilage part is longer and the bony part shorter in men, corresponding to the air intake part being larger in men (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph2.gif).
Leonardo DiCaprio is clearly much more effeminate than Burt Lancaster.
Leonardo DiCaprio’s appeal among many women results from his being cast as a romantic lead in big films such as the Titanic, and it would be naïve to believe that Hollywood simply caters to the demands or preferences of the public. For instance, there is a strong market for Christian-themed movies in the U.S., but how many such films do the big-budget Hollywood studios churn out? I would be surprised if very many feminine and attractive young adult women would be interested in men with the looks of Leonardo DiCaprio.
I have already mentioned that studies examining women’s preferences for facial masculinity in men reveal results all over the map: a preference for above average masculinization, normal faces or below average masculinization, but studies examining specific features such as chin length or the physique have found a preference for above average masculinization. There is bound to be an upper limit of masculinization beyond which appeal to women diminishes, but this article does not deal with this topic; it address how shape varies with varying levels of masculinization.
Typo: Thanks for pointing out the typo. I corrected it.




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#32 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 07:00 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3611#comment-3611)
Re 'signing off' - point taken.
(I am in the UK and have been reading this site since the first week it was up)
(Question)
How can I admit to ignorance of regression analysis yet not be convinced by your - logicaly valid - arguments about Rohrmann et al ?
(Answer)
The belevability of the conclusion indicates whether - given logical validity in the arguments - it was reached from true premises.
Its what I meant by saying you are too trusting, many people dislike studies showing certain racial differences, biological scientists doing the studies and providing your premises included.
Lower DHT in black men might result in more T being coverted to estrogen via aromatase, would rise with increased bodyfat? Estrogen promotes cancer - agreed.
The Booth study would not have the potential for unwelcome racial results being massaged and strikes at the heart of Peter Frost's "wild speculation", very well chosen study, you are indeed familiar with this area.
Here it comes:
It is not wild speculation to point out that Booth et al being done on men who had served in the US army, was done on a unrepresentative sampling http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/05/iq-interaction-between-race-and-age.html
US army induction tests.




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#33 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 12:34 | Booth Elimination of low IQ and possibly high T. Dr. Manning (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3612#comment-3612)
cont.
Higher IQ men are much less likely to be influenced by high T to engage in risky behaviour, need I say more.
John Manning from The Finger Book (2008)
"A Californian study of African-American and Caucasian students (Ellis,L and Nyborg,H 1992 Racial/Ethnic variations in Male Testosterone Levels: a Probable Contributer to Group Differences in Health Steroids 57:72-5) showed 15% higher testosterone concentrations in the former than the latter. This was after socio-economic status and lifestyle factors were taken into account."
Prenatal testosteronisation may not have much of a correlation with T levels in adulthood still, white men in north-east England have mean ratio of 0.98, the mean for Jamacan men 0.93.
The results of studies are all over the place; very well then show me one that has whites having 15% higher T levels than blacks.




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#34 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 13:54 | Baldness,Burts Big Hair (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3613#comment-3613)
I was trying to paraphrase an argument of Dr. Frost's I altered the meaning by using "lack of baldness" instead of "thick hair" which is what I meant. Baldness is very relevant to masculisation in a negative sense though. Bald men are seen as less assertive and total lack of baldness is seen as a sign of aggressiveness in my opinion. Baldness is said to be related to high DHT and perhaps estrogen, it often goes with thick body hair which you think relevant in the context of masculinisation and muscularity at another site where you also mention scalp hair worls. From 16th cent. skinhead German mercenaries to Mohawk Indians to Marines and cage fighters short hair is associated with intimidation. Monks shaved the top (the very opposite of the Mohawk) to simulate baldness; so you are rightbaldess is
Women have thicker hair than men and thicker hair diameter,judging by the height of his hairstyle Burt inclines towards the feminine condition in both these




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#35 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 14:39 | Erik knows his stuff (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3614#comment-3614)
Burts face is far more masculine overall, his lower lip can't take that away - point taken
(I am not carping, I admit you are right I just am curious; if someone looking like Burt had lips like a young Sophia Loren (unlikely as that would be) could that alone make him rather effeminate.
You seem to have destroyed Weston et al I will study your criticism carefuly it spells out some things I didn't get from looking at the face shape illustrations.
I knew the Khoi-San have almost the broadest cheekbones in the world but I forgot the ancestral population had a wide range.
Erik consider giving references for what you say on this site many people will assume you have less to back it up than you ovoiusly do




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#36 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 21:47 | Sexual selection in Northern Europe (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3615#comment-3615)
Roy: You cited an unpublished study that reported blond hair as a correlate of exposure at high prenatal estrogen levels (inferred from 2D:4D) to suggest that the finer facial features of Northern European men might reflect reduced masculinization. Since this is an unpublished study, I don’t know whether the higher 2D:4D (more feminine) was found in [British] men or women or both, but let us look at what published studies say.
The first one is an international comparison.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/2d.4d.ethnic.gif
Population (P = Poland; S = Spain; E = England; H = Hungary [EH = ethnic Hungarians, HG = Hungarian Gypsies]; G = Germany; Z = Zulu; J = Jamaica; F = Finland) and sex differences (f = female and m = male) in mean 2D:4D with standard error bars). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10828555
In this study, Finnish men had the lowest 2D:4D among the white men and all men sampled, and the male-female gap was greatest among the Finnish.
In another study on some European populations, Swedish men had the lowest 2D:4D, Swedish women the highest 2D:4D, and the male-female gap was greatest among the Swedes (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/2d.4d.ethnic2.gif) (the Swedish/London sample included Swedes born in Sweden and living in London; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16350659).
Another study on a Lithuanian sample found 2D:4D ratios lower than in most white/other populations and did not report higher 2D:4D values in individuals with lighter hair: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18041401
An odd find has been from Denmark, where the male 2D:4D was higher than in all other reported populations, including values higher than in women in most populations: http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/11/3109
The 2D:4D literature in general is not very good and one shouldn’t make much of an individual study here and there. Finger lengths are affected by many factors apart from sex hormones, and some men are going to have higher 2D:4D than many women in spite of being more masculine than women in general just as the typical man who is shorter than the majority of women still has much higher testosterone levels than the majority of women.
Nevertheless, the general find is that Nordic men, except for the odd Danish find, have the lowest 2D:4D in Europe, and two studies show the greatest male-female gaps among the Scandinavians.
This literature should be seen in light of other evidence. Northern European men are on average taller and more muscular than other European men. The most massive white bodybuilders and white men who dominate strong man championships are usually Northern European. If you look at the history of warfare within Europe, the general picture is one of the dominance of Northern Europeans. Defeat for Northern Europeans has typically been at the hands of other Northern Europeans (e.g., the Northern European-derived Franks from France, led by Charlemagne, defeating the Saxons of Germany). The Roman patricians were of Northern European descent. The nobility in Classical Greece was of Northern European descent (Northern Europeans comprised 25% of the Greeks then; reported by J. Lawrence Angel, and he documented from skeletal remains that the Nordics in ancient Greece were taller and more muscular than other European types there). So even some famous periods of Southern European military dominance had Northern Europeans as the people primarily responsible. Then there is the centuries-long occupation of the Balkans by the Ottoman Turks, but a big reason for their success was the Janissaries, their army, which comprised of kidnapped European boys raised as Muslim and turned against the Europeans, but they still couldn’t advance north of Austria.
So it is unlikely that the finer facial features of Northern European men reflect greater feminization. Selection for more feminine women doesn’t mean that the men will get more feminized also. The requirements for hunting large game and fighting for resources in Northern Europe would have selected for masculine men. After all why was there a shortage of men? Because the men were disproportionately dying while hunting big game. Even if harsh conditions prevented men in Northern Europe from supporting multiple wives, this doesn’t mean that the better off men did not get some on the side or that the women who did not have much of a choice but to settle with a less desirable man because there weren’t enough men around didn’t try to get their children secretly fathered by more desirable men.
Frost talks about the higher prevalence of polygyny in Africa, but what does polygyny do? If some men are taking multiple wives then some men are ending up with no women. So, many men will try to ensure that their wives are not taken by higher status men, i.e., they will tend to restrict how much of their women they expose in public. Of course, the men with multiple wives/harems will try to prevent lower status men from secretly dallying with their women. And, if there are plenty of men around, then women will be more restrictive with their sexuality. This will tend to lead toward the situation you see in the Middle East (extreme case). How conducive is this system to strong sexual selection? The women have little choice and the men don’t need to develop myriad abilities that one would normally need to court desirable women (obviously because the women will not be doing much choosing); all the men need is wealth/power to convince a prospective father in-law. One is even looking at war/treachery to acquire wealth/resources or at worst stealing other men’s women.
A variant of a polygynous system is that few people are married, one is expected to be faithful while married, but unmarried individuals are free to have sex with multiple unmarried partners, and only a minority of well-off men get to have multiple wives. In this system, most men and most women get a shot at reproduction and no sex has a large number of individuals that face death without reproduction. So no especially strong sexual selection here.
Now what happens in Northern Europe? Men die disproportionately while hunting big game. So the surviving men are being selected for masculinization. There is an excess of women. The women are forced to be less restrictive with their sexuality because an interested but rejected man will simply move onto another woman. The men are not especially motivated to restrict the sexual opportunities available to women because there are so many of them. The only advantage of restricting women’s sexuality for men is increasing the certainty that who they think are their biological children are indeed so, but this comes at the great cost of undermining one’s sexual pleasure. Diminishing one’s sexual pleasure by restricting women’s sexuality when there are plenty of women around doesn’t make any sense, and no red-blooded man would be so inclined. So the women have full partner selection choice, even though limited, but no matter how limited the choice, women will be more selective than men in a comparable situation. They simply have to, given their limited childbirth capacity. This is a crucial point. Even with a shortage of men, women will still be significantly selective, and the men are of course being selective because there are so many women to choose from, and the men are typically not in a position to support multiple wives. Choice for women means that they are free to try to secretly get their children fathered by men more desirable than their husbands and not come close to risking assault/death in the process. How can you beat this when it comes to strong sexual selection under natural conditions?




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#37 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 21:59 | IQ, 2D:4D, baldness (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3616#comment-3616)
Roy: Your criticism of the Booth et al. study using American soldiers is that it was done on an unrepresentative sample. The authors compared numerous demographic characteristics of their sample with those of men in the general population in the same age range and found them to be similar. Besides, the sample is from 1965-1971 but you cited an article by Peter Frost who is mentioning the shortcomings of a decades-earlier sample. The major shortcoming being addressed by Frost is the intelligence distribution, which is not an issue in the Booth study. Frost reiterates that the IQ cutoff for joining the U.S. army, presumably 90, eliminated from consideration the majority of African-American men. However, during 1965-1971, American men aged 30-48 were overwhelmingly white, including in the army. Additionally, the relationship between testosterone and IQ is at best weak. Hence, the results of the regression analysis presented would be unaffected by including lower IQ African-Americans. Even if it were affected, the effect would be so small that the conclusion would not change.
You are interested in a study showing white men having 15% higher testosterone than sub-Saharan African men. Frost himself has cited some, but he dismisses them because they involve sub-Saharan African populations who are not sufficiently masculine or are older populations. So if Frost is going to pick his masculine sub-Saharan populations and ignore the rest, then it is only fair that I be allowed to pick the more masculine European male populations rather than all whites. I pick Nordics. You mentioned a study where the English men had a 2D:4D of 0.98 and Jamaican men had a 2D:4D of 0.93. I mentioned a study where Finnish men had a 2D:4D of 0.93. This ratio reflects prenatal testosterone exposure, which is not strongly related to testosterone levels in adulthood, as you have cited. Prenatal testosterone exposure is a combination of self production and maternal contribution. Finnish women are more feminine than West African women and hence to arrive at a 2D:4D similar to that of the most masculine West African populations, Finnish male fetuses are producing higher testosterone levels than the West African male fetuses. In reality it is not clear how comparable cross-ethnic 2D:4D comparisons are and anyone familiar with the literature on 2D:4D ratio would know better than to make much of individual studies, but if I am dealing with Frost or you then I might as well use similar reasoning. Heck, I can even go ahead and argue that the 0.95 2D:4D in Swedish men is indicative of high fetal testosterone production on their part comparable to the Finns’ and higher than the Jamaicans’ because Swedish women are more feminine than Finnish women and are raising the Swedish male average even though the fetal testosterone production is similar.
Regarding baldness, again, it is a non-issue. I already mentioned that male-typical androgen levels are required for male pattern baldness, and levels in the effeminate range of the human male are enough, and hence saying that DHT is a culprit is basically reiterating this point, but the main issue is the genetic susceptibility to baldness. Unless you have evidence that the majority of instances of genetic susceptibility to baldness not involving androgen production are related to masculinization or a more manly look, don’t bring baldness or hair thickness into the picture. My discussion of a combination of baldness, body hair and muscularity issues has been in the context of an odd mix of hypermaculine and hypomaculine features in the same individual, not in terms of a straightforward judgment of a man’s masculinity.
If Burt Lancaster has Sophia Loren’s lips, he would look odd but still not effeminate. Regarding the citations of the figures I displayed in reference to Weston et al., I mentioned that they are taken from the feminine vs. masculine page. Look there.
Anyway, don’t waste my time with these issues. They are not relevant to this site.




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# 38 | Submitted by Roy on Sat, 08/02/2008 - 11:06 | Sweden and Hoes (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3617#comment-3617)
Reading your responses is time well spent, so I rattled your cage about N. European psuedo-feminisation in men (It was genuinely my point of veiw, it seemed plausible from what I knew). I don't think you can take umbrage at this observation which is relevant to this site; Swedish women are the most beautiful in the world. (Even Swedish female bodybuilders juiced to the gills look more feminine than their fellow competitors) Swedish women are in demand all over the world as models, non Swedish men of the highest status men often marry them. Sexual selection is the obvious explaination (counterbalanced by some kind of selection for men as you say) perhaps we might find some support for the expectation of a higher ratio of Y-chromosome to X-chromosome variability
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15978763 Irish women do not seem to be in as much demand http://vetinarilord.blogspot.com/2005/12/y-chromosome-variation-and-irish.html
In Pakistan the houses with the smallest highest windows (where the women are) belong to the wealthiest families advertising the fact that their women are the most secluded. (incidently, marrying cousins is a common practice in the middle east). As you say this can only have a bad effect on the quality of both sexes though Razib on gnxp did not thank you for this observation. Marrage practices explain a lot and vary a lot even within those called polygyny As I understand it Dr. Frosts explaination for relaxed sexual selection of women in some African populations involves on hoe farming so you have a point, sexual selection for women would not automaticaly loosen selection for men.




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#39 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 08/04/2008 - 11:31 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3622#comment-3622)
"Don't waste my time with these issues. They are not relevant to this site"
Quite so, its what you should have said to Dot when he asked about the T. levels of black men, that or ignored him. Please bear in mind; the less relevant an issue is to this site the more likely someone might think you're wrong about it and say so.
If you wander off your turf expect a challenge.
Comments on Decaprio, face shape studies and gracilization are as relevant to this site as this page is, if it's a wasting your time perhaps it you ought to be taking it down. I admit to going on a bit - sorry - I was thinking out loud. The site design encourages comments. You answered all my points. Although I made them forcefully I didn't want them to be true, I don't look like DeCaprio. Anyway, thank you for sharing your knowledge.




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#40 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 08/04/2008 - 13:39 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3623#comment-3623)
"Don't waste my time with these issues.They are not relevant to this site"
Quite so, but you ought to have told this to Dot when he asked about Testosterone levels ect. in black men, that or ignored him. Please bear in mind that the less relevant an issue is to your site the more likely someone will think you are wrong about it and say so.
If you wander off your turf expect a challenge.




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#41 | Submitted by Ali on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 21:56 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3634#comment-3634)
"Sub-Saharan Africans tend to have narrower hips than whites, but this appears to be an ethnic feature unrelated to testosterone levels"
Yes it is because non-Africans (especially Europeans and East Asians) tend to have bigger brained babies and thus demand broader pelvises from their mothers. Women tend to have wider pelvises compared to men due to childbirth.




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#42 | Submitted by Mike on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 15:31 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/4083#comment-4083)
If you removed all of the muscle from Dorian Yates' body, he has a worse shoulder to waist ratio than tom cruise. Yates' steroid induced muscle mass is tricking your visual system. BTW, Cruise does not have an 'effeminate' body LOL. It is not as masculine as Mike Tyson, but it is actually MORE masculine than Yates if you compare the actual skeleton.




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#43 | Submitted by Sally on Fri, 12/19/2008 - 23:16 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/4249#comment-4249)
Why not put a picture of yourself up for us all to decide on what side of the scale you sit "Erik"?




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#44 | Submitted by jim on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:31 | Kudos in general - great stuff Erik!! (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/4522#comment-4522)
I came to the site looking for Olivia art. What I found was far more than I could have imagined.
As a former bodybuilder in the the 1980-1983 era (then a back injury), in the pre-growth hormone stage
(when it had to be sucked from cadaver pituitaries - and some were dying of CJ / mad cow as a result!) -
and even after, when people didn't learn the IGF connection, I found your postings above to not only be
EXCELLENT observations, but even observations I, myself, had not made, in evaluating competition, at the
time and again in 1993 - when I made a "comeback" to the extent that injuries would permit - with a new
round of androgens (and again tweaked the old injury and took myself out!).
There is much to look at and compare - and even the rules change with regard to judging, in order to keep
interest in the sport high - (too many repetitive wins is not good, when the personalities are not at all like
Ahnold!). And so you have a change that means Coleman OUT, Cutler IN.
All in all - I agree with you about the masculine aspect of things -- Gaspari was the youngest Mr. America - at 19,
chances are real that he suffered epiphyseal closure much earlier - and that changed his shoulder width dramatically
for those final growing years. Yates only real negative was the insanity of a tattoo - but again, also no personality,
something critical to a "sport" like bodybuilding.
People - this site and Erik's commentary on the whole range of anthro questions are not about putting anyone down,
they are about observing. Even when Lou Ferrigno made his big comeback - weighing nearly 75 pounds more than he did
in his 1975 contest with Arnold (75 pounds of pure muscle at under 2% fat!) - he didn't place in the FIRST round of Olympia.
He was OUT. He was more monstrous at 345 pounds (and 6'5") than he had ever been.
I like your use of study, statistics, references, etc. Really - for a hobby site, and attributing so much to art - for which I know
absolutely nothing about (in terms of anatomical study for painting/drawing), you provoked a great deal of thought and
I did send a link to someone I know with a Fine Arts degree - because as she gets back into creating - a long lost love of hers,
there is no such thing as "too much information" - and every opinion has the value of creating a new pathway of thought.
(unless it's just a moron posting!)
So, again - my many thanks! You made this a VERY interesting Thursday Morning!!!
:-D




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#45 | Submitted by orlon on Sun, 03/15/2009 - 13:47 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5148#comment-5148)
interesting, open-minded perspective; more examples might be helpful.




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#46 | Submitted by Godis on Tue, 03/24/2009 - 04:48 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5194#comment-5194)
Ok Erik,
All those men look really gross. No woman wants a man like that, trust me! Dorian Yates does not look like a Roman God, rolls eye. Facial structure and body structure, maybe he does look like a Roman God. BUT, Roman Gods were never built to look like they were going to explode. The muscle is revolting... no woman wants a man that muscular.
Let me post some photos of men that women generally find attractive:
First of all, a man that is slightly darker is always a bit more charming. Ever heard of tall, dark and handsome? However, lighter men are attractive as well, but I think women and men alike associate lighter hair,skin,eyes, etc. with greater feminity, even though it doesn't relate to hormone levels.
This guy is muscular, but its not too much! not for me at least... however for some girls it MAY be too much.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l86/ph_jt/pictures/abercrombie.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/guy%20model)
Another muscular attractive guy. Honestly, if it gets more muscular than this, the attractiveness goes down...
http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s324/VickyLovesAnimals123/022-1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/guy%20model)
This guy doesn't have that much muscle. However, he is bulky and wide shouldered. This is more attractive than someone who is bulky and has a shit load of muscle. His face has feminine features, but he is attractive nonetheless. In fact I find that feminine features such as slightly fuller lips, bigger eyes, etc. on a man attract women even more. After all they want to see those attractive qualities in their children boy or girl don't they?
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/_kiyuu_/StevenStrait15.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/steven%20strait)
Same guy, only thinner:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u193/luminoir8/Steven_Strait.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/steven%20strait)
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/kwikkat/Hotties/steven_strait.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/steven%20strait)
What would help Steven straights appearance? A slightly finer nose from the frontal view, while side profile is alright
Paul Walker is extremely attractive:
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/Jareth63/Paul_Walker.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/paul%20walker)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/Nicoleo527/paul_walker11.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/paul%20walker)
Are you getting the drift?
The men I picked I find very attractive. However, for example some women find even leaner less muscular, or men with a less masculine build even more attractive. I know absolutley NO women that like overly muscular overly masculine guys. This is the truth:
That men on the masculine side of the scale are considered more attractive, however once that scale goes to far a man on the feminine side would do better even
Same with women: A woman on the feminine scale is more attractive, but once she gets too feminine no one finds her attractive anymore.
Besides, the whole feminine masculine scale in my opinion doesn't have to do as much with attraction as you claim. A woman with nice features that isn't particularly feminine can be more attractive than a feminine woman with boring, bland, or just bad features. And many times even androgynous women can look good, is it rarer? Yes, but not possible.
And also we all like to see feminine qualities in both males and females. If a man has big eyes, or pouty lips, etc. That is attractive to a woman. Similarly if a woman has a combination body type, such as an hourglass/athletic type, this may be more attractive. This woman is curvy, has a small waist and large breasts, however, her shoulders may be a tiny wider and her legs or something more athletic. Who cares? This woman can be very athletic and stunning at the same time.
Let me give you an example:
Keeley Hazel
You haven't responded to my questions about her by the way. Anyways, she has huge shoulders, but an amazing hourglass figure with amazing breasts? However, she looks better than most of the feminine women you post up that are moe feminine than her? Why? Is it because she looks stronger and healthier due to the fact that she has better defintion combined with feminine features such as hips,large breasts, and a small waist? Yes. This is more attractive because she looks better made, healthier, stronger, while maintaining her feminine attributes. This will beat out any other just plain feminine girl.




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# 47 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Mon, 04/13/2009 - 07:25 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5251#comment-5251)
Mike: The article is about not being tricked by muscle mass. I am not being fooled by the muscle mass of Dorian Yates. Tom Cruise does not have an effeminate physique in terms of muscle mass. Tom Cruise has made an effort to work out and attain decent muscle mass, but take a look at his shoulder width, especially in relation to hip width.
Godis: The article is not about what women find attractive in men. It is about the subtlety of masculinity-femininity in men.
You said, “Besides, the whole feminine masculine scale in my opinion doesn't have to do as much with attraction as you claim.” The evidence suggests, cited within this site, that in the absence of physical defects, the extent of femininity is the most powerful correlate of beauty in women for a given ethnic group. I agree that “a woman with nice features that isn’t particularly feminine can be more attractive than a feminine woman with boring, bland, or just bad features.” Nothing within this site refutes this notion and the site also offers plenty of evidence in its favor. Why don’t you read enough of this site before leaving comments?
There is nothing for me to say regarding your bringing in Keeley Hazell. I have passed her as an attractive woman, which doesn’t mean that all aspects of her looks have to be in the feminine range.




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#48 | Submitted by man with a prom... on Fri, 06/26/2009 - 05:27 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5758#comment-5758)
those with excess abdominal fat even if they are okay elsewhere (this is a diseased constitution)
What do you mean by diseased constitution?
Also, with regard to supermodels. Gay men or lower testosterone males predominantly control the fashion industry. Those type of men are more likely to be attracted to, or simply tp prefer for asthetic reasons, more masculine or androgenous female faces.
Also, do you think there is any truth to the idea that higher testosterone results in the asymmetry of facial features?
"Higher IQ men are much less likely to be influenced by high T to engage in risky behaviour, need I say more"
- Does testosterone influence intelligence? Does more testosterone make you dumber?
- Or, as is known higher testosterone makes men more likely to engage in risky, spur of the moment, and stupid behaviour. Does higher intelligence actually reduce the chances of this due to the greater ability of the man in question to reflect on the potential consequences of his actions?
In short - Men with high T and high intelligence do not do the same stupid things that men with high T and low intelligence do?
What sort of body type would you consider John Wayne with his wide shoulders and wide hips?
"When the shape became too masculine their perception turned negative and the man was seen to be threatening, volatile, controlling, manipulative, and selfish. (quoted from Fair Women, Dark men )" -
I think this is the failure of the survey method. Remember, women find bikers, criminals and dangerous and abusive men hot, yet will never admit to it. In fact they might not know themselves what they are attracted to. It may be the greater levels of attraction and masculinity they are attracted to DESPITE the bad behaviourof the man. Ergo women are not attracted to assholes, per se, but are attracted to highly testosteronised or masculinised men and these types are more likely to engage in asshole behaviour. Unfortunately I have no evidence for this besides what I've seen. Any study trying to understand this would be better off trying to study a woman's actions and not listen to her words.
On a related note, its well known that prison populations are full of men who are highly testosteronised or masculinised. No one would call these men pretty or attractive yet women seem to love them. All this boils down to is basically, women are attracted to high levels of testosterone. High levels of testosterone lead to higher levels of aggression and more risk taking behaviour, which as I said before, means women are attracted to men who display threatening, volatile, controlling, manipulative, and selfish behaviour but it is not this behaviour that attracts them. It is the high levels of masculinity they are attracted to despite these negative personality traits. So of course they will give these men bad ratings, but still jump into bed with them.
Concerning big hair, baldness and mohawks: Baldness is a sign of intimidation in some men. Consider bikers, gang members and so forth who shave their heads. Consider also soldiers have very short hair.
Are fish lips and mono-brows examples of masculinisation?
Also, is there any truth to the idea that high testosterone lowers the immune system?




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#49 | Submitted by BigT on Sun, 07/19/2009 - 02:59 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5901#comment-5901)
High testosterone improves facial symmetry in men. High testosterone also strengthens the immune system.




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#50 | Submitted by Gass on Thu, 07/23/2009 - 10:13 | masculine vs feminie (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5913#comment-5913)
Dorian Yates is ugly, I have a better body without exercising.
I measured my index ratio, it is high (1.01) - effeminate, but I have wide shoulders narrow waist, narrow hips and good muscles, I was somewhat effeminate and cowardly as child then turned 180 after puberty does that mean I have been exposed to little testosterone in the womb but high testosterone after puberty? What does that say about my penis size I have no clue ? BTW my penis is very straight. What does that say about my sexual performance ? I have been told I'm amazing but I could have been lied to so as not to be hurt.
In this linkkkkkkkk (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559906)it is writter that high prenatal testosterone contributes to robustness more that masculinity, white pubertal testosterone contributed to masculinity more that robustness.
Considering women, I heard that high testosterone women have higher libidos, more prone to cheating, more promiscuous and prefer masculine men, low testosterone/high estrogen women are the contrary of the above.
BTW this Swedish man is so beautiful I love this pic




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#51 | Submitted by Gass on Thu, 07/23/2009 - 10:53 | Attractiveness (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5914#comment-5914)
Here many suggest the femininity is the ace of base when it comes to attractiveness and a post by Erik said there was a research that indicated this. Can you post the research? This is weird because I've always believed and witnessed that proportionality and symmetry come before femininity when it comes to attractiveness in a woman and most guys would pick a beautiful child faced woman (child features are attractive in women) over a plain feminine face and body.




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#52 | Submitted by Krizalid on Sat, 07/25/2009 - 13:54 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5933#comment-5933)
What you mean by 'child features'? thats just lack of prominent zygomatic bones, especially the zygomatic process.




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#53 | Submitted by LazyLeo on Thu, 10/08/2009 - 10:46 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/6868#comment-6868)
Erik I've noticed this dimorphism throughout my life, yet seems to contradict pop culture's ideal beauty with both men and women. I'm curious is the cheek bones higher along the vertical plane or are they shorter with the brow reaching lower and nose reaching longer to give the cheek a high effect also, about the arches, if the arches are placed higher then would this cause elevation of the ears and a different mandible/maxilla relationship in regards to bite. I would love to see a frontal comparison of masculine and feminine skull shapes. Any links would be appreciated. Thanks keep up the good work.




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# 54 | Submitted by Igor on Thu, 10/15/2009 - 04:59 | Your theories are pure demagoguery. (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/6905#comment-6905)
There is absolutely no such thing as biologically defined beauty.
As you should know or promptly ignored in favor of racial biases, beauty is a cultural fenomenon and genetic diferentiation between sexes varies naturally among diferent generations. To say otherwise is (ironically enough) to contribute to the real underappreciation of beauty.




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#55 | Submitted by D. Rigby on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 08:45 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/7897#comment-7897)
my body shape is more like a womans than a man,I`m 5ft-7ins tall I weigh just 10stone my chest measures 33ins,my waist is 27ins but my hips are 38ins, 11ins more than my waist,and 5ins more than my chest.I`m not as physically strong as most men,Ialso have an exceptionally tiny penis and testicals,and most men and even some women can lift me off the ground and carry me as though I were a small child but I cannot lift them an inch off the ground.The women say they find me to be very effeminate.




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#56 | Submitted by Bill on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 20:39 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/7898#comment-7898)
What can you guys say about me??? Levels of androgen, handling of chemicals, masculine/feminine features, etc.!
I'm curious.
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7430/twodogs.jpg
Ignore the incredibly distracting cute puppies.




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#57 | Submitted by mary on Thu, 02/04/2010 - 17:57 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/7900#comment-7900)
The puppies are quite masculine:)




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#58 | Submitted by Randy on Wed, 03/10/2010 - 02:58 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/8632#comment-8632)
Very interesting site. Keep up the good work. BTW, some comments seem a bit dense.




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#59 | Submitted by forgot on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 18:51 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/30527#comment-30527)
"Unlike in women, it is harder to judge how masculine a man is because of the ease with which less masculine men can pack on more muscle mass given current technology, and the phenomenon of some men with a mix of multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics."
No kidding! I'll give it a try, though . . .
Am I correct in judging:
Daniel Craig to be overall masculine in appearance?
Pierce Brosnan, Alan Rickman, David Boreanaz, Clint Eastwood, and Brad Pitt to be average overall in terms of masculinity/femininity?
Hayden Christensen, Ewan Mcgregor, Jensen Ackles, Alain Delon, Robert Pattinson, Taylor Lautner, and Edward Furlong to be in the effeminate range?
Ted Danson to have a hyper-masculine face? (Couldn't find any clear pics of his body.)
Sean Connery to have a masculine face + normal body?




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#60 | Submitted by a on Tue, 01/03/2012 - 23:21 | Godis misses the point yet (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/32871#comment-32871)
Godis misses the point yet again.




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#61 | Submitted by ? on Thu, 01/26/2012 - 01:49 | Question - (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33076#comment-33076)
Question -
Erik, you've said that Northern Europeans disproportionately have the most feminine looking and also the most masculine looking women. Does this entail that they also disproportionately have the most masculine looking and also the most effeminate looking men?




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#62 | Submitted by :-) on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:11 | 61 | Submitted by ? on Thu, (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33080#comment-33080)
61 | Submitted by ? on Thu, 01/26/2012 - 01:49 | Question -
Question -
''Erik, you've said that Northern Europeans disproportionately have the most feminine looking and also the most masculine looking women.''
Erik never stated that. Erik stated Europeans women are Overall MORE feminine looking not the MOST feminine looking. There is a huge difference between the two statements. Europeans may have a higher percentage of feminine looking women (women classifiable as feminine not taking into consideration how feminine they are on the femininisy scale) though within that percentage of feminine looking women they may have less/least on the 'most' or higher end of the femininity scale but due to having a high percentage overall of women on the femininity scale they may be classifiable as overall more feminine looking comapred to the overall of another culture but not the 'most' feminine looking women. Another culture may have a higher percentage of women on the higher end of the femininity scale than the europeans but due to a smaller percentage of feminine looking women in general on the scale of feminity there overall average on the feminine scale doesnt balance out as good as the europeans would, so there overall average on the femininity scale would not be as high as the europeans though they may still possess a higher percentage of the 'most' feminine looking women than the europeans. Thats is what Erik is stating. He is not and has never stated that european women are the 'most' feminine. In fact alot of what he has stated has not been understood correctly.




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#63 | Submitted by Zaz on Thu, 02/09/2012 - 22:00 | Bullshit (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33134#comment-33134)
What's that bullshit that you've just written? A BIG population with more feminine looking women necessarily has the most feminine women, unless there's a different magnitude of standard deviation in femininity in the two populations which is unlikely. Because outcomes diverge to the values expected by probability laws when sample numbers are big, and in this case we are talking about populations




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#64 | Submitted by Lady G (http://ideasforabetter/) on Sat, 02/25/2012 - 12:40 | digit ratios (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33216#comment-33216)
I'm fascinated with this topic as I am a queer woman with a very low digit ratio (.94), and some very masculine facial features (heavier brow ridge, eastern euro cheekbones). I was prowling the web in search of more inspiration for my blog, and found this site. I've also got some other interesting stuff in my blog regarding gender and the way the lines can be blurred, coincidentally.
http://ideasforabetterhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/famous-fingers.html
http://ideasforabetterhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/more-on-gender.html
http://ideasforabetterhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/11/more-on-gender-identity-really-awesome.html
There seems to be evidence that biological characteristics are also related to personality and psychology (for instance, low 2d Ratios in both men and women are related to more aggressiveness, especially in men.)




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#65 | Submitted by orlando on Mon, 03/05/2012 - 14:42 | hello (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33246#comment-33246)
hello
do you think i have masculine face or feminine face? too masculine or just average? or maybe on the feminine side?
I think I have high broad cheekbones but my jaw is weak, maybe because I still have fat on my face, but on this page says that the mandible doesnt have to do with masculinity
http://oi41.tinypic.com/98ytk8.jpg




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#66 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Thu, 03/08/2012 - 19:15 | Orlando: The mandible is (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33266#comment-33266)
Orlando: The mandible is affected by masculinizing and feminizing factors. You must have misunderstood something.
Your face is masculine. Don’t let the cheekbones confuse you as they reflect part-Indian and utlimately Asiatic ancestry; ancestry aspects mostly do not involve population differences in masculinity-femininity.




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#67 | Submitted by orlando on Fri, 03/16/2012 - 20:12 | Yeah i know the cheekbones is (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33339#comment-33339)
Yeah i know the cheekbones is common in natives and south asians, im mestizo ... i mentioned because i read that high broad cheekbones gives the person a more masculine and aggresive look this is why many female models look masculine, because of cheekbones, also all the bad guys in movies have high cheekbones ... i like to have them, makes me look exotic so to speak lol but i still have fat on my face so they dont look that defined female models with hi




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#68 | Submitted by Woodward on Wed, 05/02/2012 - 11:35 | I think the most genetically (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33613#comment-33613)
I think the most genetically gifted are Mulattos or (half black, half white) because they have the full muscle thickness most usually from some sort of alpinic european descent and the "cut-ness" or muscle seperation from their black side. The reigning Mr Olympia is mulatto 5'9, 250lbs Phil Heath @ 2% bf. He looks like afro-germanic with a predominately alpine body structure....




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#69 | Submitted by Staci on Sat, 06/30/2012 - 13:35 | I think you should have (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33848#comment-33848)
I think you should have picked a better example to illustrate the type of male beauty that women like. Most women find hiper-muscular men unappealing. The physical male ideal for women is a man athletic muscled but not extremely as bodybuilders. We prefer male fitness models type. Men of your photos also show a low rating of facial attractiveness. I'll use an example more appropriate prototype of male beauty.
I posted the pictures of fitness model Marc Fitt. Great body and a very attractive face.
302 Found (http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s515/fran197823/?action=view&current=423473_371653389518133_353297390_n.jpg)
302 Found (http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s515/fran197823/?action=view&current=IMG-20120416-WA0007.jpg)
302 Found (http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s515/fran197823/?action=view&current=563946_487462664603871_1745896677_n.jpg)




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#70 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Sun, 07/01/2012 - 18:33 | Staci: The article is not (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33850#comment-33850)
Staci: The article is not about illustrating what kind of men are liked by women, but about issues in evaluating the masculinity of men. Some of these issues are best clarified by using examples of extremely muscular men.




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#71 | Submitted by Marija on Wed, 08/08/2012 - 21:10 | Not quite clear (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/34000#comment-34000)
Erik, I don't really understand where you concluded from that Swedish or Northern European women are on average more feminine than Asian or Black women?
Do they have higher estrogen levels than Asian or Black women?




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#72 | Submitted by Marija on Wed, 08/08/2012 - 21:40 | Erik, (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/34001#comment-34001)
Erik,
You say:
"As in women, it is important to look at multiple characteristics in men to assess how masculine/feminine they are".
"Finnish women are more feminine than West African women" "Swedish women are more feminine than Finnish women"
Do you have a source for this, or is this based on your personal views/observations/opinions?
I am very interested in how you got to this conclusion,
~a Dutch female









http://www.femininebeauty.info/masculinization-feminization-in-men

[natina]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/masculinization-feminization-in-men

Feminization and masculinization in the looks of men

Submitted by Admin on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 05:01This topic doesn’t really belong at this site, but some readers have wanted me to write on this issue, to be fair if not anything else. I agree that it is fair to also address men at some length. I mulled including the following contents in a zipped file for anyone interested, but decided that it is best to post it online. Before I begin, I wish to say that just as I have nothing against masculinized women, I have nothing against effeminate/feminized men.
The feminine vs. masculine page (http://www.femininebeauty.info/fem.vs.masculine.htm) within this site extensively addresses skull and face shape variation resulting from masculinization and feminization. There is no need to repeat it here; some pictures will suffice. The reader can also download the demo version of facegen modeler (http://www.facegen.com/) and see, from multiple angles, how increasing masculinization alters the face. The demo version of this program allows one to do everything except for exporting to external 3D formats and displaying the ‘SI’ logo on the forehead.
The following example is an easy contrast between an effeminate face and a masculine one.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/leo.and.burt.jpg
Fig. 1. Leonardo DiCaprio (left) and Burt Lancaster.
Confounds in judging the masculinity of men

As in women, men’s masculinity should be judged from overall looks. One should beware of the following issues.
Gracilization as pseudo-feminization
Fineness of facial features should not be confounded with feminization. Northern European men often have fine facial features as in the following Swedish male, but his overall face shape is clearly masculine.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/swede2.jpg
Fig. 2. A man from Sweden.
Bizarre combination of multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics
There are some scenarios in men that are difficult to find if not non-existent in women. For example, the following individual has a masculine overall face shape but an effeminate body. His body is not effeminate because he is short, but because of its shape. He is not overall describable as either masculine or feminine/effeminate or even normal.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/tom.cruise.jpg
Fig. 3. Tom Cruise.
If one had a few masculine-looking features but were overall effeminate, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary since sex hormones are not the only factors shaping looks, but observing multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics in the same individual is curious. Such bizarre combinations could result from a number of scenarios. For instance, some physical features are shaped to a significant extent during prenatal development but others are mostly shaped after birth. Therefore, if a male’s testes are not able to produce high levels of androgens such as testosterone but this person is nevertheless exposed to high levels of testosterone in the womb because his mother produced high levels of androgens when she was pregnant, then he will manifest a curious mix of masculine and not so masculine features. An example could be a specific finger-length ratio talked about shortly being masculine even though the overall body shape isn’t. In another scenario, prenatal developmental disturbances caused by excess testosterone exposure will lead to a strange mix of hypermasculine, normally masculine and hypomasculine/effeminate characteristics.
Muscular build
Since having larger muscles is a more masculine-looking feature and there are very easy ways to increase muscle size without being a masculine man -- anabolic androgenic steroids, beta-adrenergic agonists and to a limited extent relatively harmless substances such as creatine monohydrate -- caution is advised in judging the masculinity of a man based on his muscularity. Even without these ergogenic aids, a less masculine man who regularly lifts heavy weights could be packing more muscle mass than a more masculine man who doesn’t do weightlifting. Some illustrative examples of professional male bodybuilders -- steroid-induced freaks -- will clarify this issue.
Do you see a hypermasculine man below?

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.1.jpg
Fig. 4. Richard Gaspari.
Think again. Look carefully at Gaspari’s shoulder width; it is unimpressive.
Richard Gaspari doesn’t have a masculine face.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.2s.jpg (http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.2.jpg)
Fig. 5. Richard Gaspari; click for context.
Richard Gaspari also does not have particularly narrow hips.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/richard.gaspari.3.jpg
Fig. 6. Richard Gaspari.
The following picture shows Markus Ruhl, and is a good example of what very masculine shoulder width looks like. However, note that Markus Ruhl doesn’t have a masculine face. Also note that Markus Ruhl doesn’t have particularly narrow hips.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/markus.ruhl.jpg
Fig. 7. Markus Ruhl.
Again, look at the following individual; very large muscles, but non-narrow hips and a face that is not so masculine.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/greg.kovacs.jpg
Fig. 8. Greg Kovacs.
It should be easy to look at the following comparisons and infer who has a more masculine build. Who has the combination of wider shoulders, narrower hips and a smaller backside?

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/jay.and.dennis.jpg
Fig. 9. Jay Cultler (left) and Dennis Wolf.
The following individual is a masculine male from head to toe: masculine face, wide shoulders, narrow hips.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/dorian.yates.1.jpg
Fig. 10. Dorian Yates.
I don’t have pictures of Dorian Yates as a young man, but judging from the following picture, he was close to looking like a Greek God in the flesh.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/dorian.yates.2.jpg
Fig. 11. Dorian Yates.
The take home message should be clear. Look at multiple skeletal cues to judge the masculinity of men. Some bodybuilders take human growth hormone (HGH), too, and on some counts HGH changes face shape in the same direction as testosterone. So this can confound judging masculinity, too.
If one observes obese men, they will often have heavy/thick bones and also a large amount of muscle mass, but obese men are on average among the least masculine of men in terms of testosterone levels, estrogen levels, phallus size, etc. So, some people have a propensity to pack on lots of body mass; not just fat tissue, but also muscles and bone mass. The physical constitution that predisposes one toward developing a corpulent/rotund body has been classically described as endomorphy, said to be a somatotype or somatype (build). Other somatotypes include mesomorphy (tendency toward muscularity and masculine skeletal proportions) and ectomorphy (tendency toward a long, lean and thin body development). The extent to which people lean toward these builds varies. A man who leans toward an endomorphic build to a significant but not excessive degree (e.g., Greg Kovacs above) could pack on a large amount of muscle mass using the pharmaceutical agents described above and burn off some undesirable body fat by taking alpha-adrenergic stimulators, but this wouldn’t be making him a masculine man.
Another confound affects an important structure discussed next.
For the ladies

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/for.the.ladies.jpg
Fig. 12. Stuff that matters.
I previously showed the following graph about the relation between mesomorphy/muscular build and body hairiness. Starting from an effeminate physical build, as the physique becomes naturally more masculine, body hairiness increases, which appears intuitive, but beyond a certain point, greater body hairiness corresponds to a weaker physical build. A plausible explanation of the relationship is that beyond a certain level of androgen exposure, a male fetus is developmentally disturbed, resulting in a weak physical build, but since the individual produces elevated androgens, simple structures like body hair show the effect of elevated androgens.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/i/hair.and.build.jpg
Fig. 13. Relation between body hair and muscular build.
It is almost certain that a similar relationship exists between muscular build and phallus length, too. The reasons are that the phallus is set well onto its developmental path when the male is in the womb, and this growth is strongly dependent on the same androgen that is a major determinant of body hair growth: dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is derived from testosterone and is more potent than it; it serves to amplify the effect of testosterone on a tissue. The phallus is a simple structure, and is expected to show a dose-response relationship with androgens/DHT over a broader range than the more complex structure of the overall musculo-skeletal build. Hence, the most naturally muscular men are not necessarily well-endowed. Some of the best endowed men may have an otherwise skinny/weak physical build, but such men will usually have multiple masculine features (e.g., a short, skinny man with lots of body hair and a deep, manly voice).
There are some developmental genes (homeobox genes; Hox A, Hox B) that affect both digits (fingers/toes) and the phallus. There is a useful proxy for prenatal testosterone exposure: the index finger-length ratio to ring finger-length ratio or 2nd finger-length ratio to 4th finger-length ratio (2D:4D). The useful measure is on the right hand as it is more sensitive to sex steroids. 2D:4D is established prenatally. With increasing masculinization, the index finger becomes shorter than the ring finger, i.e., 2D:4D diminishes with increasing masculinization. Evidence for this as well as other correlates of 2D:4D can be read about here (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1409789).
So how could one be reasonably confident that a given man is healthy, masculine and well-endowed without looking at his phallus and giving him a medical exam? The exclusion and selection criteria should be obvious. Exclude the obese/overweight, those with excess abdominal fat even if they are okay elsewhere (this is a diseased constitution) and men with a strange mix of hypermasculine/masculine, normally masculine and hypomasculine/effeminate characteristics. Select men with broad shoulders, a tiny waist, narrow hips and a small backside; and go for men in whom the index finger is noticeably/strikingly shorter than the ring finger. The ideal masculine man would have been exposed to high levels of androgens during prenatal development, developed under high testosterone levels post-natally, possess high baseline testosterone levels and have had no trouble handling the high testosterone levels. These exclusion and selection criteria increase the statistical odds of making the right inference; there are no guarantees; an obese man may be packing a member that would put most men to shame.
Comment

As in women, it is important to look at multiple characteristics in men to assess how masculine/feminine they are. Unlike in women, it is harder to judge how masculine a man is because of the ease with which less masculine men can pack on more muscle mass given current technology, and the phenomenon of some men with a mix of multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics. Men’s masculinity assessment should focus on multiple skeletal characteristics/proportions.



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Comments


# 1 | Submitted by brenda on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 11:42 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2430#comment-2430)
Hey Eric, this is really cool. You should post more articles like this. Why don't you compare men who look effeminate, who look normal, with above average masculinity, and those who are hypermasculine?




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#2 | Submitted by BSP on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 20:19 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2434#comment-2434)
Is it really in the realm of normal sexuality to find people that extremely muscular attractive?




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#3 | Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 22:27 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2436#comment-2436)
Dorian Yates does not look like a Greek God; he just looks like a freak, as well as the rest of the men on this page, with the exception of the first four.
Leo is too feminine for my tastes, but he's still a good-looking man, Burt is alright, and Tom Cruise would look close to perfect if it weren't for his nose.
"Fineness of facial features should not be confounded with feminization. Northern European men often have fine facial features as in the following Swedish male, but his overall face shape is clearly masculine."
Not really. He looks quite effeminate, Erik, especially his nose.
Just curious - what do you think is the definition of a "pretty boy?" Do you consider pretty boys to be attractive men who look feminine (Ryan Phillipe, for example) or attractive men who look masculine, and are called "pretty boys" only because they look good (Fabio Cannavaro)?
My friend calls any guy she thinks is attractive "pretty," even when they're very masculine, and that confuses me since I associate the word "pretty" only with women.




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#4 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Sun, 11/18/2007 - 00:36 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2451#comment-2451)
Brenda: Going into details about men isn’t what this site is about. The article should do a decent job of emphasizing the importance of skeletal structure in judging men’s masculinity in light of various confounds.
BPS: Some women find the extreme muscularity shown above very appealing, and this is not so unusual, but most women find extremely muscular men unappealing or repulsive.
Sarah: I have told you before not to bother with understanding masculine vs. feminine variation. The Swedish male does not look effeminate. Discussing a “pretty boy” with you would be a waste of time. The term can apply to effeminate but appealing (to those using the term) men or cute men or men who are masculine but have smooth/blemishless skin, nice hair, and a well-groomed plus generally pleasing appearance.




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#5 | Submitted by Not From Twisty's on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 10:47 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2472#comment-2472)
I always thought Christopher Walken looked like a woman. People say he's 'creepy' ect, I'm like nope, he's f.e.m.i.n.i.z.e.d. yikes!
http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/Christopher_Walken%20-%201%20-%20Hairspray.jpg




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#6 | Submitted by Not From Twisty's on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 11:14 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2473#comment-2473)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Femdog/move.jpg
Apparently David Bowie moved on from his androgynous phase. His hips say otherwise. Good god.




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#7 | Submitted by Twisty's on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 13:03 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2483#comment-2483)
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/75442629.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19309EBFDFE8F65174D155CBF5A321FA153
walken again




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#8 | Submitted by brenda on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 14:43 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2486#comment-2486)
So why don't you make a website on this? This is just as interesting as feminine beauty, or maybe even more for women. I don't think the feminized men will complain as much as the masculinized women who chance upon this site. Anyway, does the ring finger-index finger ratio as indicator of testosterone levels also apply to women?




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#9 | Submitted by BSP on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 23:30 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2603#comment-2603)
That reminds me Erik- you mention how robustness shouldn't be confounded with feminization. I've always suspected this, but I've never fully noticed it until recently when you pointed it out. It comes back to that one white nationalist blog that prompted me to write to you- he made that mistake, which led him to dismiss nearly all non-white females as hideous. Still, why would you say that women in western countries with large jaws and cheekbones are so rare in fashion, while there's a strong mixture of it in east asian countries? Are their certain extremities on these features where they're considered unattractive outside femininity, or are these considered feminine no matter what, regardless of their size? And exactly what contributes to these facial features looking masculine if size plays no role? It's easy to see, but I'm not sure of the term.




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#10 | Submitted by BSP on Sun, 12/02/2007 - 02:14 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2605#comment-2605)
Also, would you say there's a lack of models and the like with large jaws and cheekbones in the US? (though strongly feminine as well?) What could this be attributed to? There seems to be alot of variation when it comes to east asia in terms of that, but they're just pretty uncommon in western markets.
Also, one other thing to note about your site- in that one 7-part series, when you're comparing asian and european models to women from tribal and tradition societies, that's pretty..... poor. "Attractive" individuals are hard to come by in those societies due to how tightly-knit those populations are and thus leading to little pressure for truly attractive traits. There's also how those stressful lifestyles accentuate ageing and testosterone levels, contributing to greater masculinity.




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#11 | Submitted by BSP on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 22:44 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2642#comment-2642)
Erik, what do you make of this?
http://www.sensualism.com/beauty/index.html
I've heard there's somewhat of a debate over this in regards to male beauty. And what's the deal with that comment about facial hair? That seems rather neutral, unless in extremities.




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#12 | Submitted by BSP on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 22:58 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2643#comment-2643)
I think a good way to look at that would be to see what the maximum size of these are in normal human phenotype variation- not sure how that's possible though.




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#13 | Submitted by justagirl on Tue, 12/11/2007 - 01:40 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/2673#comment-2673)
can u please please show me pix of guys who are not body builders. I want to see what a "normal" masculine guy looks like, and more face pictures please.
show a range please. show a skinny guy who is masc. vs. a skinny guy who is fem.
show a chubby guy who is masc. and a chubby guy who is fem.
a short man and a tall man, please.
and of course an average guy who is masc and one who is fem.
show body and face.
and graphs dont do much for me, can you show pictures of normal mens body hair pattern, over masc. body hair, and can u describe or show the result of too much exposure to male hormones (fetus) in an adult
you have also focused mostly on the masc./fem. characteristics of Caucasoid males can you show these effects in other races if possible
thanks would appreciate this so soooo much!!!




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# 14 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 03:52 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3341#comment-3341)
Brenda: I don’t have the time or motive to come up with an equivalent site that addresses men. I can barely handle this site. The finger length find also applies to women.
BSP: There are plenty of women with prominent cheekbones among Western fashion models, and some of them also have large/wide jaws, but on average their jaws and cheekbones will be smaller than in East Asians because they descend from populations with smaller faces. The features that contribute to a masculine or feminine look are primarily shape variables; size is a factor only when a change in size alters shape variables (allometry) that are also altered in different ways by androgens and estrogens.
You shouldn’t be looking at pictures of European/Asian models and African tribals on the same page as a type of comparison. The comparisons are based on anthropological data. The pictures are merely illustrative examples of the arguments in the text. It was necessary to avoid using pictures of sub-Saharan Africans with other-population mixture, which explains the use of tribals’ pictures, though some models of predominantly sub-Saharan African ancestry are also used. As to attractive individuals hard to come by in tribal societies, this is your opinion, and your explanation that this is so because of how tight-knit they are doesn’t apply. Why should attractiveness in a mate be less important among tribals? Whereas chronic stressors will cause premature aging, I did not address skin health. I have mostly focused on skeletal features. Chronic stress decreases testosterone levels in men but does not have a clear effect on testosterone levels in women.
The sensualism site has cited the results of a study on male facial attractiveness in relation to how masculine or feminine it is, but there have been many such studies and there is no clear find to sum up. Some such studies have reported a preference for more overall masculine faces, others for less overall masculine faces, and some others have documented little relevance of masculinity-femininity in the neighborhood of average norms. In many of these studies there has been a confound between masculinization and robusticity. Findings are clearer for preferences regarding individual features such as longer chin length and higher cheekbone placement in men, both associated with greater masculinization. There are also finds that women prefer more masculine looking men when they are close to ovulating, more attractive women prefer more masculine looking men, and more promiscuous women prefer more masculine looking men.
Justagirl: I do not have the time to come up with the images you are looking for. This website is not about men, but I was able to come up with this article to be fair. Keep in mind the skeletal proportions issue. Among thin men, those with more overall masculine skeletal proportions will tend to be more masculine, just as this will be the case among obese men or men in any specific non-European population. What constitutes average, below average or above average body hairiness depends upon the population considered, and you will have to observe enough men in a given population to get an idea of the distribution of body hairiness in it.




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#15 | Submitted by . on Tue, 04/29/2008 - 19:33 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3415#comment-3415)
I read somewhere, that black man have higher testosterone levels,hence broader shoulders and narrower hips .
Is it true Erik ???
The top bodybuilder is Ronnie Coleman -who's black .
Jay Cutler -white one is next .
Dont know ,but it seems easier for black man to build muscle ?
I read some journal that says it .
Broader shoulders ,and larger penises and also longer slenderer calf muscle ideal for sprinting events .
True ????




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#16 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Thu, 05/01/2008 - 02:38 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3420#comment-3420)
dot: Whereas Ronnie Coleman was the #1 bodybuilder for many years and a massively muscular individual at that, the most muscular bodybuilders are disproportionately white males. White males have a muscle bulk advantage but the following disadvantages compared to West African males when it comes to bodybuilding competitions: higher subcutaneous fat (leading to less definition), fuller muscle bellies (leading to reduced separation between adjacent muscles) and lighter skin (reflects more light and doesn’t bring out shape minutiae). The skin color problem is easily addressed via a fake tan, but the other problems remain. Many really massive white bodybuilders never make it to the top because they just cannot get “cut” or defined enough. For instance, Greg Kovacs shown above was much more massive at his peak than Ronnie Coleman (and 3 inches taller, too), but never came close to winning a Mr. Olympia. Another bodybuilder shown above, Markus Ruhl, has competed at a bulk much greater than Ronnie Coleman’s in spite of being an inch shorter. West Africans tend to have more bone mass than whites, and so you can guess how much more muscular some of the white bodybuilders really are.
The evidence regarding testosterone levels is unlcear. The only testosterone-related study representative of the American population did not find a difference in testosterone levels between American white men and African-American men (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17456570). In this study, if you look at the unadjusted values, it seems that African-American men tend to have slightly higher testosterone levels, but this was not statistically significant, and adjustment for age, BMI, smoking, alcohol consumption and physical activity revealed no statistically significant differences between these two groups. However, more of the testosterone was being converted to DHT (more potent than testosterone; it amplifies the effect of testosterone) in white men, and African-Americans had higher estradiol levels. This study did not report on the distribution of the sensitivity of the androgen receptor to testosterone in the groups, but there have been one or two reports that forms of androgen receptors that are the most sensitive to androgens such as testosterone are somewhat more prevalent among African-Americans (greater sensitivity translates to stronger effect of testosterone on target tissues). So a clear picture awaits more research.
Sub-Saharan Africans tend to have narrower hips than whites, but this appears to be an ethnic feature unrelated to testosterone levels. I am not aware of shoulder width differences among these two groups of men.
The evidence regarding penis length differences between whites and Africans is unclear (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17355371) (also this (http://www.enlargepenisguide.com/images/fig5.gif)) though I think it is slightly longer in the Africans.
The slender calf muscles, more precisely calf muscles with shorter bellies, are better suited to sprinting because of a greater proportion of fast-twitch fibers, but this also makes them less suitable for long-distance running.




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#17 | Submitted by Father Adil on Fri, 07/11/2008 - 12:59 | Has anyone seen this man - (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3537#comment-3537)
Has anyone seen this man - the music artist David Jordan? It looks as if he has an androgynous face.
YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh3wSMM_nbE)




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#18 | Submitted by Roy on Sun, 07/13/2008 - 16:37 | Population testosterone Rohrmann et al (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3540#comment-3540)
Evo and Proud:More on Rohrmann et al has taken this study apart.
The subject is central to Peter Frost's work and (as you say) peripheral to your superbly executed site, however I am a little surprised you did not notice some anomalies - testosterone increasing with age especialy - your too trusting.




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#19 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Mon, 07/14/2008 - 19:44 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3545#comment-3545)
Roy: The Rohrmann et al. study on testosterone levels in a nationally representative sample of Americans reported values on a cross-sectional sample and Table 3, which reported the hormone levels by age (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/rohrmann.gif), listed values that were adjusted for age, body fat levels and other factors such as smoking, physical activity, etc. If they had reported unadjusted values, you would have seen an age-related decline. The results were:
Quote:

Total testosterone levels by age (tendency):White males: 20-44 > 45-69 or 70+
African-American males: 45-69 > 20-44 > 70+
Mexican-American males: 70+ > 20-44 > 45-69
If they look odd, keep in mind that you are looking at a cross-sectional sample and values adjusted for body fat levels, age and other factors.




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#20 | Submitted by Roy on Tue, 07/15/2008 - 09:41 | Rohrmann et al rejoinder (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3549#comment-3549)
I think you are making the same point rebutted here in the comments at Evo and Proud
" Your referring to the linear regression model... (but)the serum concentrations of each age group as listed in table 3 'Serum concentrations of sex steriod hormones'.. are simply geometric means. Yes the age ajusted linear regression model failed to find a black-white difference. There are two reasons.First testosterone levels do not decline linearly with age. The decline is much steeper in the mid to late twenties and is steeper for blacks than for whites.
...the black-white difference is wider in the 45-69 year olds. That is to be expected if T levels are higher in 45-69 year old black men than in 20-44 year old black men. Both of these findings indicate that a disproportionate number of high testostrone individuals were removed from the younger age group."




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#21 | Submitted by Roy on Tue, 07/15/2008 - 10:19 | Rohrmann et al rejoinder continued (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3550#comment-3550)
"The 'adjustment for age' in Table 3 is the breakdown of the data into three age groups.This point is explained in the Statistical Analysis section:
'We evaluated racial/ethnic differences in the hormones and SHBH (a)overall after adjusting for age and (b) within three age catagories reflecting hypothesized hormonal transitions though life; early adulthood(20-44 years old), mid-adulthood (45-69 years old), and late adulthood(70+ years old'.




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#22 | Submitted by Roy on Wed, 07/16/2008 - 17:51 | bodybuilding and an apology (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3554#comment-3554)
An authority on bodybuilding said blacks had an advantage over whites in the colour of their skin. Whites must agree, some of the them apply so much tanning solution they look like Al Jolson.
I commented on your citing Rohrmann in a superior tone, Erik that stuff is way over my head I can only understand P.Frosts conclusions, regression analysis ect. is beyond me. I forgot some people like to work things out for themselves and have the expertise to do so. Please don't waste time on this issue.




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#23 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 06:37 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3575#comment-3575)
Burt Lancaster has a lack of baldness, more importantly his lower lip is too big, how about replacing him with http://toddmecklem.com/Lawrence_Tierney_425.jpg




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#24 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 12:19 | Sexual selection for less threatening looks in men (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3576#comment-3576)
Sexual selection gives men relatively shorter upper faces for their breadth compared to females http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000710 I have seen some photos of the XYY Syndrome afflicted who had very long upper faces.




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#25 | Submitted by Roy on Sat, 07/26/2008 - 17:15 | Photogenic confound (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3588#comment-3588)
Using leading men has a confound associated with it; photogenic people such as Leo and especialy Burt tend to have rather large faces and heads (eg Marilyn Monroe). Lancaster's facial skeleton is robust for sure, I just don't think that the masculine face should have thicker hair and a much bigger lower lip.




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#26 | Submitted by Roy on Sat, 07/26/2008 - 18:04 | Gracilization in Northern Europeans (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3589#comment-3589)
Looking masculine could have the reproductively benificial rational of being attractive to women (and perhaps intimidating other men), but for much of evolutionary time men were in short supply especialy in northern Europe so one would expect this relaxed selection of men.
Relaxed sexual selection would result in men looking less masculine; being in short supply they did the choosing and the women were selected for attractiveness, which as you say is feminimity largely.
Given that north European men exibit gracilization how can you be so sure that this is pseudo-femininity. Might it just be the price paid for more feminine beauty in north Europe. The finger ratio for blonds is said to be higher.
Mather,F.,Manning,JT.,&Bundred,PE Evidence for blond hair as a correlate of high prenatal oestrogen prenal(unpublished)on Evo and Proud




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#27 | Submitted by Roy on Tue, 07/29/2008 - 14:24 | Walken - Tierney (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3603#comment-3603)
Christopher Walken might be a better choice for the least masculine face. Top catwalk models may be masculine but I don't think Leonardo DeCaprio could have made it as a top leading man if he looked effeminate. The most striking thing about him is his very short upper face which is appealing to women (see Sexual selection for less threatening looks in men) above. A study on female assesment of male face shape (Johnston ,Victor S. et al 2001) found that moderately masculine features are associated with an attractive , exciting, virile, healthy and protective man. When the shape became too masculine their perception turned negative and the man was seen to be threatening, volatile, controlling, manipulative, and selfish. (quoted from Fair Women, Dark men ) Laurence Tierney had a long upper face and conformed to the perceptions in real life. Maybe you could put find someone to replace DeCaprio




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#28 | Submitted by Typo on Wed, 07/30/2008 - 05:58 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3604#comment-3604)
Story, last paragraph, first line - "Unlikely women"




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#29 | Submitted by Roy on Wed, 07/30/2008 - 07:23 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3605#comment-3605)
My last word, I think it is a tactical mistake to use DeCaprio as a clear cut example of an effeminate face, it will hurt this sites credibility with many women who might agree with you about fashion models. Just as his broad jaw (which women like) makes his chin look more pointed, his large head makes his lower face look shorter than it is - until someone is beside him http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2005/gallery/beautifulcouples/12bundchen.jpg his taste is improving http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k199/nunung_2006/2322-bar_rafaeli04.jpg




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#30 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 22:49 | Comment on Peter Frost (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3609#comment-3609)
Roy: If you are going to criticize some point, then don’t sign off as “evo and proud” because at first I assumed that you were describing yourself. Link to the criticism.
Here are the two links on testosterone and ethnicity by Peter Frost you were referencing –
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/03/testosterone-and-human-variation.html
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/04/more-on-rohrmann-et-al.html
The first link explains the context or why it is important for Peter Frost to maintain that West/Central Africans and African-Americans have higher testosterone levels than white men.
You said that you are not familiar with regression analysis. So how can you be so sure that Peter Frost has refuted my arguments? Let us look at his arguments.
Testosterone and white male – West African male differences
Frost has a strange interpretation of age-adjusted values. When someone talks about reporting values that have been adjusted for age, it means that all ages have been taken into consideration. Just because the authors choose to present the hormone level statistics by three broad age groups, it doesn’t mean that the hormone values are adjusted for membership in one of the three age groups. A related point by him is that “the black-white difference in t levels shrinks after 24 years of age, is gone by the early 30s, and seems to reverse at older ages,” but given that the literature has shown results all over the map and null finds, how can he use one study, using non-representative sampling, to insist on this statement so definitively? And the reason he brings out this point is because of his misinterpretation that the age adjustment was by broad age group rather than all ages. This mistake also prompts him to invoke [small] differences in median ages between the groups.
He ignores various kinds of adjustments on the data. For instance, let us say that over a 10-year period, an adult man reduces his average daily production of testosterone but also gains percentage body fat, and that the percentage increase in body fat is greater than the percentage decrease in testosterone. Thus, at the end of the 10-year period, this man would be producing more testosterone when adjusted for level of body fat even though his actual testosterone values have declined. And again, the sample is cross-sectional.
He does not address the higher estrogen levels in African-American men, something that numerous studies have reported. He also does not address higher AAG levels in white men, which is an indicator of greater conversion of testosterone to DHT (roughly conceptualize DHT as a more potent form of testosterone). He has pointed to higher rates of prostate cancer among African-American men as suggestive of higher testosterone levels but it is known that estrogens are a major culprit in up to half of prostate cancers (http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/100/11/815).
Rohrmann et al. indicated that they only had access to 1479 out of 1998 blood samples. Frost speculates that the unavailable samples had been removed for further study after they were found to have been infected by a herpes virus (sexually transmitted). Then he figured that the African-Americans, being more promiscuous, were more likely to have gotten infected, and inferred that their greater promiscuity was a result of higher testosterone levels i.e., the higher testosterone African-American men were disproportionately not analyzed. This is wild speculation, but more importantly it reflects Frost’s unfamiliarity with the literature.
Look at the following from Booth et al. (1999) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10196726). They examined testosterone levels and various behaviors in a random sample of 4,393 men that had served in the U.S. army during the years 1965 and 1971. The average age was 37 and the age range was 30-48. These men were representative of American men in the same age group. The first dataset indicates the percentage increase in the likelihood of sexually transmitted disease and promiscuity with increasing testosterone levels. The testosterone levels are reported in nanograms of testosterone per deciliter of blood (ng/dl). The great majority of men lie in the 300-1000 ng/dl range. We observe that with every 200 ng/dl increase in testosterone, the likelihood of having experienced a sexually transmitted infection increased by 16.5%, which is appreciable.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/booth.1.gif
Percentage increase in behavior(s) for a range of increase in testosterone levels in men.
But what proportion of the variation in sexually transmitted infections and promiscuity was accounted for by testosterone? Here is where regression analysis enters in, but you don’t have to worry about understanding it. Just look at the R2 values below.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/booth.2.gif
The R2 value explains the proportion of the variation in the dependent variable (behavior) accounted for by the variable(s) entered (age and testosterone in our case). For sexually transmitted infections, this value is a mere 0.006 or 0.6%, and for promiscuity this value is a mere 0.010 or 1%. In other words, testosterone is accounting for very little of the variance in promiscuity and sexually transmitted diseases in the sample (because too many factors affect these variables, which in turn suggests that it is a naïve assumption on Frost’s part to assume that greater promiscuity in African-Americans is due to higher testosterone levels). So even if we assume that all unavailable blood samples in the Rohrmann et al. study were removed due to herpes infection and that African-Americans were strongly overrepresented in the omitted samples, it wouldn’t follow that the omissions have prevented the average testosterone levels in African-American men from registering above the white average.
Frost has made weak arguments, and I will have more to say in other replies to your comments.




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#31 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:00 | Burt Lancaster vs. Leonardo DiCaprio (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3610#comment-3610)
Roy: You mentioned lack of baldness in Burt Lancaster. How is this relevant to masculinization? Male pattern baldness results from a combination of genetic susceptibility and androgens, but if genetic susceptibility is there then even men with low testosterone levels will become bald.
You also mentioned that Burt has thicker lower lips that Leonardo and hence is not a good example of a masculine male face but this point is irrelevant. Faces are shaped by many factors apart from sex hormones and it is the overall appearance that matters. A more overall masculine face is not necessarily more masculine looking on every count; it simply needs to look more masculine in the majority of feature comparisons.
You cited a study showing that “sexual selection gives men relatively shorter upper faces for their breadth compared to females,” better stated as men have wider face for the same upper face height, where upper face height is roughly the distance between the point where the forehead meets the nose and the upper lip. You cited this find because this is how Leonardo differs from Burt. The authors (Weston et al.; Biometric Evidence that Sexual Selection Has Shaped the Hominin Face (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000710#pone.0000710.s007)) have chosen to present their data in a poor manner, and it is misleading. Their find can be summed up in this figure showing that men have wider faces but similar upper face height compared to women (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/weston.example.jpg). Their example contrasts a normal woman with an effeminate man. On the other hand, I have cited studies (see the feminine vs. masculine page) where masculinization makes the face shape narrower (example 1 (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/face.shape.gif), example 2 (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/laser.scan.1.jpg)). So why the difference? The studies that I cited used European individuals whereas the Weston et al. study used Southern African populations, and I wonder if this is relevant because the Khoi-San people appear facially less sexually dimorphic than Europeans, and sexual dimorphism of individual features is not necessarily similar across populations. But importantly, in the studies that I cited, the results are shown for face shape, which is evaluated after adjusting for face size, and face size was adjusted by computing centroid size (http://www.femininebeauty.info/marquardt-phi-mask-shape-comparison). But Weston et al. have a poor proxy for face size, namely the basicranial or basion-nasion length (shown by the distance between ba and n in this figure (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/basicranial.length.ba.n.gif)) rather than computing the centroid size from several such inter-landmark distances. In addition, even for the same face size, the basion-nasion length is increased with masculinization (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph.gif). Their statistics comprise of comparing how all combinations of the relative growths of two inter-landmark distances change from childhood to adulthood in men and women. So what they found is that the absolute width of the male face at the level of the cheekbones is greater than in the female whereas the absolute height of the upper face is similar. Since sexual selection acts on how all parts of the face fit together, it is clear that they should evaluate changes in a particular feature in relation to the rest of the face (e.g., face size as in centroid size). For instance, increasing the length of the lower jaw in men will make the face look overall narrower.
Another issue is that the upper face height metric used by the authors comprises of nose length + distance between nose tip and upper lip. In both illustrations that I have shown, where the comparisons keep face size constant, you can see that the distance between nose tip and upper lip increases with masculinization. One of these figures even shows that the region where the nose meets the forehead moves slightly upward with masculinization. The nose length comprises of the bony part plus the soft cartilage part. For the same face size, the cartilage part is longer and the bony part shorter in men, corresponding to the air intake part being larger in men (http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/dimorph2.gif).
Leonardo DiCaprio is clearly much more effeminate than Burt Lancaster.
Leonardo DiCaprio’s appeal among many women results from his being cast as a romantic lead in big films such as the Titanic, and it would be naïve to believe that Hollywood simply caters to the demands or preferences of the public. For instance, there is a strong market for Christian-themed movies in the U.S., but how many such films do the big-budget Hollywood studios churn out? I would be surprised if very many feminine and attractive young adult women would be interested in men with the looks of Leonardo DiCaprio.
I have already mentioned that studies examining women’s preferences for facial masculinity in men reveal results all over the map: a preference for above average masculinization, normal faces or below average masculinization, but studies examining specific features such as chin length or the physique have found a preference for above average masculinization. There is bound to be an upper limit of masculinization beyond which appeal to women diminishes, but this article does not deal with this topic; it address how shape varies with varying levels of masculinization.
Typo: Thanks for pointing out the typo. I corrected it.




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#32 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 07:00 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3611#comment-3611)
Re 'signing off' - point taken.
(I am in the UK and have been reading this site since the first week it was up)
(Question)
How can I admit to ignorance of regression analysis yet not be convinced by your - logicaly valid - arguments about Rohrmann et al ?
(Answer)
The belevability of the conclusion indicates whether - given logical validity in the arguments - it was reached from true premises.
Its what I meant by saying you are too trusting, many people dislike studies showing certain racial differences, biological scientists doing the studies and providing your premises included.
Lower DHT in black men might result in more T being coverted to estrogen via aromatase, would rise with increased bodyfat? Estrogen promotes cancer - agreed.
The Booth study would not have the potential for unwelcome racial results being massaged and strikes at the heart of Peter Frost's "wild speculation", very well chosen study, you are indeed familiar with this area.
Here it comes:
It is not wild speculation to point out that Booth et al being done on men who had served in the US army, was done on a unrepresentative sampling http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/05/iq-interaction-between-race-and-age.html
US army induction tests.




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#33 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 12:34 | Booth Elimination of low IQ and possibly high T. Dr. Manning (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3612#comment-3612)
cont.
Higher IQ men are much less likely to be influenced by high T to engage in risky behaviour, need I say more.
John Manning from The Finger Book (2008)
"A Californian study of African-American and Caucasian students (Ellis,L and Nyborg,H 1992 Racial/Ethnic variations in Male Testosterone Levels: a Probable Contributer to Group Differences in Health Steroids 57:72-5) showed 15% higher testosterone concentrations in the former than the latter. This was after socio-economic status and lifestyle factors were taken into account."
Prenatal testosteronisation may not have much of a correlation with T levels in adulthood still, white men in north-east England have mean ratio of 0.98, the mean for Jamacan men 0.93.
The results of studies are all over the place; very well then show me one that has whites having 15% higher T levels than blacks.




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#34 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 13:54 | Baldness,Burts Big Hair (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3613#comment-3613)
I was trying to paraphrase an argument of Dr. Frost's I altered the meaning by using "lack of baldness" instead of "thick hair" which is what I meant. Baldness is very relevant to masculisation in a negative sense though. Bald men are seen as less assertive and total lack of baldness is seen as a sign of aggressiveness in my opinion. Baldness is said to be related to high DHT and perhaps estrogen, it often goes with thick body hair which you think relevant in the context of masculinisation and muscularity at another site where you also mention scalp hair worls. From 16th cent. skinhead German mercenaries to Mohawk Indians to Marines and cage fighters short hair is associated with intimidation. Monks shaved the top (the very opposite of the Mohawk) to simulate baldness; so you are rightbaldess is
Women have thicker hair than men and thicker hair diameter,judging by the height of his hairstyle Burt inclines towards the feminine condition in both these




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#35 | Submitted by Roy on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 14:39 | Erik knows his stuff (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3614#comment-3614)
Burts face is far more masculine overall, his lower lip can't take that away - point taken
(I am not carping, I admit you are right I just am curious; if someone looking like Burt had lips like a young Sophia Loren (unlikely as that would be) could that alone make him rather effeminate.
You seem to have destroyed Weston et al I will study your criticism carefuly it spells out some things I didn't get from looking at the face shape illustrations.
I knew the Khoi-San have almost the broadest cheekbones in the world but I forgot the ancestral population had a wide range.
Erik consider giving references for what you say on this site many people will assume you have less to back it up than you ovoiusly do




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#36 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 21:47 | Sexual selection in Northern Europe (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3615#comment-3615)
Roy: You cited an unpublished study that reported blond hair as a correlate of exposure at high prenatal estrogen levels (inferred from 2D:4D) to suggest that the finer facial features of Northern European men might reflect reduced masculinization. Since this is an unpublished study, I don’t know whether the higher 2D:4D (more feminine) was found in [British] men or women or both, but let us look at what published studies say.
The first one is an international comparison.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/2d.4d.ethnic.gif
Population (P = Poland; S = Spain; E = England; H = Hungary [EH = ethnic Hungarians, HG = Hungarian Gypsies]; G = Germany; Z = Zulu; J = Jamaica; F = Finland) and sex differences (f = female and m = male) in mean 2D:4D with standard error bars). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10828555
In this study, Finnish men had the lowest 2D:4D among the white men and all men sampled, and the male-female gap was greatest among the Finnish.
In another study on some European populations, Swedish men had the lowest 2D:4D, Swedish women the highest 2D:4D, and the male-female gap was greatest among the Swedes (http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/2d.4d.ethnic2.gif) (the Swedish/London sample included Swedes born in Sweden and living in London; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16350659).
Another study on a Lithuanian sample found 2D:4D ratios lower than in most white/other populations and did not report higher 2D:4D values in individuals with lighter hair: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18041401
An odd find has been from Denmark, where the male 2D:4D was higher than in all other reported populations, including values higher than in women in most populations: http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/11/3109
The 2D:4D literature in general is not very good and one shouldn’t make much of an individual study here and there. Finger lengths are affected by many factors apart from sex hormones, and some men are going to have higher 2D:4D than many women in spite of being more masculine than women in general just as the typical man who is shorter than the majority of women still has much higher testosterone levels than the majority of women.
Nevertheless, the general find is that Nordic men, except for the odd Danish find, have the lowest 2D:4D in Europe, and two studies show the greatest male-female gaps among the Scandinavians.
This literature should be seen in light of other evidence. Northern European men are on average taller and more muscular than other European men. The most massive white bodybuilders and white men who dominate strong man championships are usually Northern European. If you look at the history of warfare within Europe, the general picture is one of the dominance of Northern Europeans. Defeat for Northern Europeans has typically been at the hands of other Northern Europeans (e.g., the Northern European-derived Franks from France, led by Charlemagne, defeating the Saxons of Germany). The Roman patricians were of Northern European descent. The nobility in Classical Greece was of Northern European descent (Northern Europeans comprised 25% of the Greeks then; reported by J. Lawrence Angel, and he documented from skeletal remains that the Nordics in ancient Greece were taller and more muscular than other European types there). So even some famous periods of Southern European military dominance had Northern Europeans as the people primarily responsible. Then there is the centuries-long occupation of the Balkans by the Ottoman Turks, but a big reason for their success was the Janissaries, their army, which comprised of kidnapped European boys raised as Muslim and turned against the Europeans, but they still couldn’t advance north of Austria.
So it is unlikely that the finer facial features of Northern European men reflect greater feminization. Selection for more feminine women doesn’t mean that the men will get more feminized also. The requirements for hunting large game and fighting for resources in Northern Europe would have selected for masculine men. After all why was there a shortage of men? Because the men were disproportionately dying while hunting big game. Even if harsh conditions prevented men in Northern Europe from supporting multiple wives, this doesn’t mean that the better off men did not get some on the side or that the women who did not have much of a choice but to settle with a less desirable man because there weren’t enough men around didn’t try to get their children secretly fathered by more desirable men.
Frost talks about the higher prevalence of polygyny in Africa, but what does polygyny do? If some men are taking multiple wives then some men are ending up with no women. So, many men will try to ensure that their wives are not taken by higher status men, i.e., they will tend to restrict how much of their women they expose in public. Of course, the men with multiple wives/harems will try to prevent lower status men from secretly dallying with their women. And, if there are plenty of men around, then women will be more restrictive with their sexuality. This will tend to lead toward the situation you see in the Middle East (extreme case). How conducive is this system to strong sexual selection? The women have little choice and the men don’t need to develop myriad abilities that one would normally need to court desirable women (obviously because the women will not be doing much choosing); all the men need is wealth/power to convince a prospective father in-law. One is even looking at war/treachery to acquire wealth/resources or at worst stealing other men’s women.
A variant of a polygynous system is that few people are married, one is expected to be faithful while married, but unmarried individuals are free to have sex with multiple unmarried partners, and only a minority of well-off men get to have multiple wives. In this system, most men and most women get a shot at reproduction and no sex has a large number of individuals that face death without reproduction. So no especially strong sexual selection here.
Now what happens in Northern Europe? Men die disproportionately while hunting big game. So the surviving men are being selected for masculinization. There is an excess of women. The women are forced to be less restrictive with their sexuality because an interested but rejected man will simply move onto another woman. The men are not especially motivated to restrict the sexual opportunities available to women because there are so many of them. The only advantage of restricting women’s sexuality for men is increasing the certainty that who they think are their biological children are indeed so, but this comes at the great cost of undermining one’s sexual pleasure. Diminishing one’s sexual pleasure by restricting women’s sexuality when there are plenty of women around doesn’t make any sense, and no red-blooded man would be so inclined. So the women have full partner selection choice, even though limited, but no matter how limited the choice, women will be more selective than men in a comparable situation. They simply have to, given their limited childbirth capacity. This is a crucial point. Even with a shortage of men, women will still be significantly selective, and the men are of course being selective because there are so many women to choose from, and the men are typically not in a position to support multiple wives. Choice for women means that they are free to try to secretly get their children fathered by men more desirable than their husbands and not come close to risking assault/death in the process. How can you beat this when it comes to strong sexual selection under natural conditions?




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#37 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 21:59 | IQ, 2D:4D, baldness (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3616#comment-3616)
Roy: Your criticism of the Booth et al. study using American soldiers is that it was done on an unrepresentative sample. The authors compared numerous demographic characteristics of their sample with those of men in the general population in the same age range and found them to be similar. Besides, the sample is from 1965-1971 but you cited an article by Peter Frost who is mentioning the shortcomings of a decades-earlier sample. The major shortcoming being addressed by Frost is the intelligence distribution, which is not an issue in the Booth study. Frost reiterates that the IQ cutoff for joining the U.S. army, presumably 90, eliminated from consideration the majority of African-American men. However, during 1965-1971, American men aged 30-48 were overwhelmingly white, including in the army. Additionally, the relationship between testosterone and IQ is at best weak. Hence, the results of the regression analysis presented would be unaffected by including lower IQ African-Americans. Even if it were affected, the effect would be so small that the conclusion would not change.
You are interested in a study showing white men having 15% higher testosterone than sub-Saharan African men. Frost himself has cited some, but he dismisses them because they involve sub-Saharan African populations who are not sufficiently masculine or are older populations. So if Frost is going to pick his masculine sub-Saharan populations and ignore the rest, then it is only fair that I be allowed to pick the more masculine European male populations rather than all whites. I pick Nordics. You mentioned a study where the English men had a 2D:4D of 0.98 and Jamaican men had a 2D:4D of 0.93. I mentioned a study where Finnish men had a 2D:4D of 0.93. This ratio reflects prenatal testosterone exposure, which is not strongly related to testosterone levels in adulthood, as you have cited. Prenatal testosterone exposure is a combination of self production and maternal contribution. Finnish women are more feminine than West African women and hence to arrive at a 2D:4D similar to that of the most masculine West African populations, Finnish male fetuses are producing higher testosterone levels than the West African male fetuses. In reality it is not clear how comparable cross-ethnic 2D:4D comparisons are and anyone familiar with the literature on 2D:4D ratio would know better than to make much of individual studies, but if I am dealing with Frost or you then I might as well use similar reasoning. Heck, I can even go ahead and argue that the 0.95 2D:4D in Swedish men is indicative of high fetal testosterone production on their part comparable to the Finns’ and higher than the Jamaicans’ because Swedish women are more feminine than Finnish women and are raising the Swedish male average even though the fetal testosterone production is similar.
Regarding baldness, again, it is a non-issue. I already mentioned that male-typical androgen levels are required for male pattern baldness, and levels in the effeminate range of the human male are enough, and hence saying that DHT is a culprit is basically reiterating this point, but the main issue is the genetic susceptibility to baldness. Unless you have evidence that the majority of instances of genetic susceptibility to baldness not involving androgen production are related to masculinization or a more manly look, don’t bring baldness or hair thickness into the picture. My discussion of a combination of baldness, body hair and muscularity issues has been in the context of an odd mix of hypermaculine and hypomaculine features in the same individual, not in terms of a straightforward judgment of a man’s masculinity.
If Burt Lancaster has Sophia Loren’s lips, he would look odd but still not effeminate. Regarding the citations of the figures I displayed in reference to Weston et al., I mentioned that they are taken from the feminine vs. masculine page. Look there.
Anyway, don’t waste my time with these issues. They are not relevant to this site.




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# 38 | Submitted by Roy on Sat, 08/02/2008 - 11:06 | Sweden and Hoes (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3617#comment-3617)
Reading your responses is time well spent, so I rattled your cage about N. European psuedo-feminisation in men (It was genuinely my point of veiw, it seemed plausible from what I knew). I don't think you can take umbrage at this observation which is relevant to this site; Swedish women are the most beautiful in the world. (Even Swedish female bodybuilders juiced to the gills look more feminine than their fellow competitors) Swedish women are in demand all over the world as models, non Swedish men of the highest status men often marry them. Sexual selection is the obvious explaination (counterbalanced by some kind of selection for men as you say) perhaps we might find some support for the expectation of a higher ratio of Y-chromosome to X-chromosome variability
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15978763 Irish women do not seem to be in as much demand http://vetinarilord.blogspot.com/2005/12/y-chromosome-variation-and-irish.html
In Pakistan the houses with the smallest highest windows (where the women are) belong to the wealthiest families advertising the fact that their women are the most secluded. (incidently, marrying cousins is a common practice in the middle east). As you say this can only have a bad effect on the quality of both sexes though Razib on gnxp did not thank you for this observation. Marrage practices explain a lot and vary a lot even within those called polygyny As I understand it Dr. Frosts explaination for relaxed sexual selection of women in some African populations involves on hoe farming so you have a point, sexual selection for women would not automaticaly loosen selection for men.




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#39 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 08/04/2008 - 11:31 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3622#comment-3622)
"Don't waste my time with these issues. They are not relevant to this site"
Quite so, its what you should have said to Dot when he asked about the T. levels of black men, that or ignored him. Please bear in mind; the less relevant an issue is to this site the more likely someone might think you're wrong about it and say so.
If you wander off your turf expect a challenge.
Comments on Decaprio, face shape studies and gracilization are as relevant to this site as this page is, if it's a wasting your time perhaps it you ought to be taking it down. I admit to going on a bit - sorry - I was thinking out loud. The site design encourages comments. You answered all my points. Although I made them forcefully I didn't want them to be true, I don't look like DeCaprio. Anyway, thank you for sharing your knowledge.




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#40 | Submitted by Roy on Mon, 08/04/2008 - 13:39 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3623#comment-3623)
"Don't waste my time with these issues.They are not relevant to this site"
Quite so, but you ought to have told this to Dot when he asked about Testosterone levels ect. in black men, that or ignored him. Please bear in mind that the less relevant an issue is to your site the more likely someone will think you are wrong about it and say so.
If you wander off your turf expect a challenge.




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#41 | Submitted by Ali on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 21:56 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/3634#comment-3634)
"Sub-Saharan Africans tend to have narrower hips than whites, but this appears to be an ethnic feature unrelated to testosterone levels"
Yes it is because non-Africans (especially Europeans and East Asians) tend to have bigger brained babies and thus demand broader pelvises from their mothers. Women tend to have wider pelvises compared to men due to childbirth.




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#42 | Submitted by Mike on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 15:31 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/4083#comment-4083)
If you removed all of the muscle from Dorian Yates' body, he has a worse shoulder to waist ratio than tom cruise. Yates' steroid induced muscle mass is tricking your visual system. BTW, Cruise does not have an 'effeminate' body LOL. It is not as masculine as Mike Tyson, but it is actually MORE masculine than Yates if you compare the actual skeleton.




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#43 | Submitted by Sally on Fri, 12/19/2008 - 23:16 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/4249#comment-4249)
Why not put a picture of yourself up for us all to decide on what side of the scale you sit "Erik"?




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#44 | Submitted by jim on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:31 | Kudos in general - great stuff Erik!! (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/4522#comment-4522)
I came to the site looking for Olivia art. What I found was far more than I could have imagined.
As a former bodybuilder in the the 1980-1983 era (then a back injury), in the pre-growth hormone stage
(when it had to be sucked from cadaver pituitaries - and some were dying of CJ / mad cow as a result!) -
and even after, when people didn't learn the IGF connection, I found your postings above to not only be
EXCELLENT observations, but even observations I, myself, had not made, in evaluating competition, at the
time and again in 1993 - when I made a "comeback" to the extent that injuries would permit - with a new
round of androgens (and again tweaked the old injury and took myself out!).
There is much to look at and compare - and even the rules change with regard to judging, in order to keep
interest in the sport high - (too many repetitive wins is not good, when the personalities are not at all like
Ahnold!). And so you have a change that means Coleman OUT, Cutler IN.
All in all - I agree with you about the masculine aspect of things -- Gaspari was the youngest Mr. America - at 19,
chances are real that he suffered epiphyseal closure much earlier - and that changed his shoulder width dramatically
for those final growing years. Yates only real negative was the insanity of a tattoo - but again, also no personality,
something critical to a "sport" like bodybuilding.
People - this site and Erik's commentary on the whole range of anthro questions are not about putting anyone down,
they are about observing. Even when Lou Ferrigno made his big comeback - weighing nearly 75 pounds more than he did
in his 1975 contest with Arnold (75 pounds of pure muscle at under 2% fat!) - he didn't place in the FIRST round of Olympia.
He was OUT. He was more monstrous at 345 pounds (and 6'5") than he had ever been.
I like your use of study, statistics, references, etc. Really - for a hobby site, and attributing so much to art - for which I know
absolutely nothing about (in terms of anatomical study for painting/drawing), you provoked a great deal of thought and
I did send a link to someone I know with a Fine Arts degree - because as she gets back into creating - a long lost love of hers,
there is no such thing as "too much information" - and every opinion has the value of creating a new pathway of thought.
(unless it's just a moron posting!)
So, again - my many thanks! You made this a VERY interesting Thursday Morning!!!
:-D




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#45 | Submitted by orlon on Sun, 03/15/2009 - 13:47 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5148#comment-5148)
interesting, open-minded perspective; more examples might be helpful.




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#46 | Submitted by Godis on Tue, 03/24/2009 - 04:48 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5194#comment-5194)
Ok Erik,
All those men look really gross. No woman wants a man like that, trust me! Dorian Yates does not look like a Roman God, rolls eye. Facial structure and body structure, maybe he does look like a Roman God. BUT, Roman Gods were never built to look like they were going to explode. The muscle is revolting... no woman wants a man that muscular.
Let me post some photos of men that women generally find attractive:
First of all, a man that is slightly darker is always a bit more charming. Ever heard of tall, dark and handsome? However, lighter men are attractive as well, but I think women and men alike associate lighter hair,skin,eyes, etc. with greater feminity, even though it doesn't relate to hormone levels.
This guy is muscular, but its not too much! not for me at least... however for some girls it MAY be too much.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l86/ph_jt/pictures/abercrombie.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/guy%20model)
Another muscular attractive guy. Honestly, if it gets more muscular than this, the attractiveness goes down...
http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s324/VickyLovesAnimals123/022-1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/guy%20model)
This guy doesn't have that much muscle. However, he is bulky and wide shouldered. This is more attractive than someone who is bulky and has a shit load of muscle. His face has feminine features, but he is attractive nonetheless. In fact I find that feminine features such as slightly fuller lips, bigger eyes, etc. on a man attract women even more. After all they want to see those attractive qualities in their children boy or girl don't they?
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/_kiyuu_/StevenStrait15.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/steven%20strait)
Same guy, only thinner:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u193/luminoir8/Steven_Strait.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/steven%20strait)
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/kwikkat/Hotties/steven_strait.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/steven%20strait)
What would help Steven straights appearance? A slightly finer nose from the frontal view, while side profile is alright
Paul Walker is extremely attractive:
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/Jareth63/Paul_Walker.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/paul%20walker)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/Nicoleo527/paul_walker11.jpg (http://photobucket.com/images/paul%20walker)
Are you getting the drift?
The men I picked I find very attractive. However, for example some women find even leaner less muscular, or men with a less masculine build even more attractive. I know absolutley NO women that like overly muscular overly masculine guys. This is the truth:
That men on the masculine side of the scale are considered more attractive, however once that scale goes to far a man on the feminine side would do better even
Same with women: A woman on the feminine scale is more attractive, but once she gets too feminine no one finds her attractive anymore.
Besides, the whole feminine masculine scale in my opinion doesn't have to do as much with attraction as you claim. A woman with nice features that isn't particularly feminine can be more attractive than a feminine woman with boring, bland, or just bad features. And many times even androgynous women can look good, is it rarer? Yes, but not possible.
And also we all like to see feminine qualities in both males and females. If a man has big eyes, or pouty lips, etc. That is attractive to a woman. Similarly if a woman has a combination body type, such as an hourglass/athletic type, this may be more attractive. This woman is curvy, has a small waist and large breasts, however, her shoulders may be a tiny wider and her legs or something more athletic. Who cares? This woman can be very athletic and stunning at the same time.
Let me give you an example:
Keeley Hazel
You haven't responded to my questions about her by the way. Anyways, she has huge shoulders, but an amazing hourglass figure with amazing breasts? However, she looks better than most of the feminine women you post up that are moe feminine than her? Why? Is it because she looks stronger and healthier due to the fact that she has better defintion combined with feminine features such as hips,large breasts, and a small waist? Yes. This is more attractive because she looks better made, healthier, stronger, while maintaining her feminine attributes. This will beat out any other just plain feminine girl.




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# 47 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Mon, 04/13/2009 - 07:25 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5251#comment-5251)
Mike: The article is about not being tricked by muscle mass. I am not being fooled by the muscle mass of Dorian Yates. Tom Cruise does not have an effeminate physique in terms of muscle mass. Tom Cruise has made an effort to work out and attain decent muscle mass, but take a look at his shoulder width, especially in relation to hip width.
Godis: The article is not about what women find attractive in men. It is about the subtlety of masculinity-femininity in men.
You said, “Besides, the whole feminine masculine scale in my opinion doesn't have to do as much with attraction as you claim.” The evidence suggests, cited within this site, that in the absence of physical defects, the extent of femininity is the most powerful correlate of beauty in women for a given ethnic group. I agree that “a woman with nice features that isn’t particularly feminine can be more attractive than a feminine woman with boring, bland, or just bad features.” Nothing within this site refutes this notion and the site also offers plenty of evidence in its favor. Why don’t you read enough of this site before leaving comments?
There is nothing for me to say regarding your bringing in Keeley Hazell. I have passed her as an attractive woman, which doesn’t mean that all aspects of her looks have to be in the feminine range.




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#48 | Submitted by man with a prom... on Fri, 06/26/2009 - 05:27 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5758#comment-5758)
those with excess abdominal fat even if they are okay elsewhere (this is a diseased constitution)
What do you mean by diseased constitution?
Also, with regard to supermodels. Gay men or lower testosterone males predominantly control the fashion industry. Those type of men are more likely to be attracted to, or simply tp prefer for asthetic reasons, more masculine or androgenous female faces.
Also, do you think there is any truth to the idea that higher testosterone results in the asymmetry of facial features?
"Higher IQ men are much less likely to be influenced by high T to engage in risky behaviour, need I say more"
- Does testosterone influence intelligence? Does more testosterone make you dumber?
- Or, as is known higher testosterone makes men more likely to engage in risky, spur of the moment, and stupid behaviour. Does higher intelligence actually reduce the chances of this due to the greater ability of the man in question to reflect on the potential consequences of his actions?
In short - Men with high T and high intelligence do not do the same stupid things that men with high T and low intelligence do?
What sort of body type would you consider John Wayne with his wide shoulders and wide hips?
"When the shape became too masculine their perception turned negative and the man was seen to be threatening, volatile, controlling, manipulative, and selfish. (quoted from Fair Women, Dark men )" -
I think this is the failure of the survey method. Remember, women find bikers, criminals and dangerous and abusive men hot, yet will never admit to it. In fact they might not know themselves what they are attracted to. It may be the greater levels of attraction and masculinity they are attracted to DESPITE the bad behaviourof the man. Ergo women are not attracted to assholes, per se, but are attracted to highly testosteronised or masculinised men and these types are more likely to engage in asshole behaviour. Unfortunately I have no evidence for this besides what I've seen. Any study trying to understand this would be better off trying to study a woman's actions and not listen to her words.
On a related note, its well known that prison populations are full of men who are highly testosteronised or masculinised. No one would call these men pretty or attractive yet women seem to love them. All this boils down to is basically, women are attracted to high levels of testosterone. High levels of testosterone lead to higher levels of aggression and more risk taking behaviour, which as I said before, means women are attracted to men who display threatening, volatile, controlling, manipulative, and selfish behaviour but it is not this behaviour that attracts them. It is the high levels of masculinity they are attracted to despite these negative personality traits. So of course they will give these men bad ratings, but still jump into bed with them.
Concerning big hair, baldness and mohawks: Baldness is a sign of intimidation in some men. Consider bikers, gang members and so forth who shave their heads. Consider also soldiers have very short hair.
Are fish lips and mono-brows examples of masculinisation?
Also, is there any truth to the idea that high testosterone lowers the immune system?




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#49 | Submitted by BigT on Sun, 07/19/2009 - 02:59 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5901#comment-5901)
High testosterone improves facial symmetry in men. High testosterone also strengthens the immune system.




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#50 | Submitted by Gass on Thu, 07/23/2009 - 10:13 | masculine vs feminie (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5913#comment-5913)
Dorian Yates is ugly, I have a better body without exercising.
I measured my index ratio, it is high (1.01) - effeminate, but I have wide shoulders narrow waist, narrow hips and good muscles, I was somewhat effeminate and cowardly as child then turned 180 after puberty does that mean I have been exposed to little testosterone in the womb but high testosterone after puberty? What does that say about my penis size I have no clue ? BTW my penis is very straight. What does that say about my sexual performance ? I have been told I'm amazing but I could have been lied to so as not to be hurt.
In this linkkkkkkkk (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559906)it is writter that high prenatal testosterone contributes to robustness more that masculinity, white pubertal testosterone contributed to masculinity more that robustness.
Considering women, I heard that high testosterone women have higher libidos, more prone to cheating, more promiscuous and prefer masculine men, low testosterone/high estrogen women are the contrary of the above.
BTW this Swedish man is so beautiful I love this pic




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#51 | Submitted by Gass on Thu, 07/23/2009 - 10:53 | Attractiveness (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5914#comment-5914)
Here many suggest the femininity is the ace of base when it comes to attractiveness and a post by Erik said there was a research that indicated this. Can you post the research? This is weird because I've always believed and witnessed that proportionality and symmetry come before femininity when it comes to attractiveness in a woman and most guys would pick a beautiful child faced woman (child features are attractive in women) over a plain feminine face and body.




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#52 | Submitted by Krizalid on Sat, 07/25/2009 - 13:54 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/5933#comment-5933)
What you mean by 'child features'? thats just lack of prominent zygomatic bones, especially the zygomatic process.




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#53 | Submitted by LazyLeo on Thu, 10/08/2009 - 10:46 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/6868#comment-6868)
Erik I've noticed this dimorphism throughout my life, yet seems to contradict pop culture's ideal beauty with both men and women. I'm curious is the cheek bones higher along the vertical plane or are they shorter with the brow reaching lower and nose reaching longer to give the cheek a high effect also, about the arches, if the arches are placed higher then would this cause elevation of the ears and a different mandible/maxilla relationship in regards to bite. I would love to see a frontal comparison of masculine and feminine skull shapes. Any links would be appreciated. Thanks keep up the good work.




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# 54 | Submitted by Igor on Thu, 10/15/2009 - 04:59 | Your theories are pure demagoguery. (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/6905#comment-6905)
There is absolutely no such thing as biologically defined beauty.
As you should know or promptly ignored in favor of racial biases, beauty is a cultural fenomenon and genetic diferentiation between sexes varies naturally among diferent generations. To say otherwise is (ironically enough) to contribute to the real underappreciation of beauty.




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#55 | Submitted by D. Rigby on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 08:45 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/7897#comment-7897)
my body shape is more like a womans than a man,I`m 5ft-7ins tall I weigh just 10stone my chest measures 33ins,my waist is 27ins but my hips are 38ins, 11ins more than my waist,and 5ins more than my chest.I`m not as physically strong as most men,Ialso have an exceptionally tiny penis and testicals,and most men and even some women can lift me off the ground and carry me as though I were a small child but I cannot lift them an inch off the ground.The women say they find me to be very effeminate.




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#56 | Submitted by Bill on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 20:39 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/7898#comment-7898)
What can you guys say about me??? Levels of androgen, handling of chemicals, masculine/feminine features, etc.!
I'm curious.
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7430/twodogs.jpg
Ignore the incredibly distracting cute puppies.




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#57 | Submitted by mary on Thu, 02/04/2010 - 17:57 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/7900#comment-7900)
The puppies are quite masculine:)




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#58 | Submitted by Randy on Wed, 03/10/2010 - 02:58 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/8632#comment-8632)
Very interesting site. Keep up the good work. BTW, some comments seem a bit dense.




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#59 | Submitted by forgot on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 18:51 | link (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/30527#comment-30527)
"Unlike in women, it is harder to judge how masculine a man is because of the ease with which less masculine men can pack on more muscle mass given current technology, and the phenomenon of some men with a mix of multiple masculine and multiple effeminate characteristics."
No kidding! I'll give it a try, though . . .
Am I correct in judging:
Daniel Craig to be overall masculine in appearance?
Pierce Brosnan, Alan Rickman, David Boreanaz, Clint Eastwood, and Brad Pitt to be average overall in terms of masculinity/femininity?
Hayden Christensen, Ewan Mcgregor, Jensen Ackles, Alain Delon, Robert Pattinson, Taylor Lautner, and Edward Furlong to be in the effeminate range?
Ted Danson to have a hyper-masculine face? (Couldn't find any clear pics of his body.)
Sean Connery to have a masculine face + normal body?




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#60 | Submitted by a on Tue, 01/03/2012 - 23:21 | Godis misses the point yet (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/32871#comment-32871)
Godis misses the point yet again.




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#61 | Submitted by ? on Thu, 01/26/2012 - 01:49 | Question - (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33076#comment-33076)
Question -
Erik, you've said that Northern Europeans disproportionately have the most feminine looking and also the most masculine looking women. Does this entail that they also disproportionately have the most masculine looking and also the most effeminate looking men?




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#62 | Submitted by :-) on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:11 | 61 | Submitted by ? on Thu, (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33080#comment-33080)
61 | Submitted by ? on Thu, 01/26/2012 - 01:49 | Question -
Question -
''Erik, you've said that Northern Europeans disproportionately have the most feminine looking and also the most masculine looking women.''
Erik never stated that. Erik stated Europeans women are Overall MORE feminine looking not the MOST feminine looking. There is a huge difference between the two statements. Europeans may have a higher percentage of feminine looking women (women classifiable as feminine not taking into consideration how feminine they are on the femininisy scale) though within that percentage of feminine looking women they may have less/least on the 'most' or higher end of the femininity scale but due to having a high percentage overall of women on the femininity scale they may be classifiable as overall more feminine looking comapred to the overall of another culture but not the 'most' feminine looking women. Another culture may have a higher percentage of women on the higher end of the femininity scale than the europeans but due to a smaller percentage of feminine looking women in general on the scale of feminity there overall average on the feminine scale doesnt balance out as good as the europeans would, so there overall average on the femininity scale would not be as high as the europeans though they may still possess a higher percentage of the 'most' feminine looking women than the europeans. Thats is what Erik is stating. He is not and has never stated that european women are the 'most' feminine. In fact alot of what he has stated has not been understood correctly.




»
#63 | Submitted by Zaz on Thu, 02/09/2012 - 22:00 | Bullshit (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33134#comment-33134)
What's that bullshit that you've just written? A BIG population with more feminine looking women necessarily has the most feminine women, unless there's a different magnitude of standard deviation in femininity in the two populations which is unlikely. Because outcomes diverge to the values expected by probability laws when sample numbers are big, and in this case we are talking about populations




»
#64 | Submitted by Lady G (http://ideasforabetter/) on Sat, 02/25/2012 - 12:40 | digit ratios (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33216#comment-33216)
I'm fascinated with this topic as I am a queer woman with a very low digit ratio (.94), and some very masculine facial features (heavier brow ridge, eastern euro cheekbones). I was prowling the web in search of more inspiration for my blog, and found this site. I've also got some other interesting stuff in my blog regarding gender and the way the lines can be blurred, coincidentally.
http://ideasforabetterhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/famous-fingers.html
http://ideasforabetterhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/more-on-gender.html
http://ideasforabetterhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/11/more-on-gender-identity-really-awesome.html
There seems to be evidence that biological characteristics are also related to personality and psychology (for instance, low 2d Ratios in both men and women are related to more aggressiveness, especially in men.)




»
#65 | Submitted by orlando on Mon, 03/05/2012 - 14:42 | hello (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33246#comment-33246)
hello
do you think i have masculine face or feminine face? too masculine or just average? or maybe on the feminine side?
I think I have high broad cheekbones but my jaw is weak, maybe because I still have fat on my face, but on this page says that the mandible doesnt have to do with masculinity
http://oi41.tinypic.com/98ytk8.jpg




»
#66 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Thu, 03/08/2012 - 19:15 | Orlando: The mandible is (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33266#comment-33266)
Orlando: The mandible is affected by masculinizing and feminizing factors. You must have misunderstood something.
Your face is masculine. Don’t let the cheekbones confuse you as they reflect part-Indian and utlimately Asiatic ancestry; ancestry aspects mostly do not involve population differences in masculinity-femininity.




»
#67 | Submitted by orlando on Fri, 03/16/2012 - 20:12 | Yeah i know the cheekbones is (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33339#comment-33339)
Yeah i know the cheekbones is common in natives and south asians, im mestizo ... i mentioned because i read that high broad cheekbones gives the person a more masculine and aggresive look this is why many female models look masculine, because of cheekbones, also all the bad guys in movies have high cheekbones ... i like to have them, makes me look exotic so to speak lol but i still have fat on my face so they dont look that defined female models with hi




»
#68 | Submitted by Woodward on Wed, 05/02/2012 - 11:35 | I think the most genetically (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33613#comment-33613)
I think the most genetically gifted are Mulattos or (half black, half white) because they have the full muscle thickness most usually from some sort of alpinic european descent and the "cut-ness" or muscle seperation from their black side. The reigning Mr Olympia is mulatto 5'9, 250lbs Phil Heath @ 2% bf. He looks like afro-germanic with a predominately alpine body structure....




»
#69 | Submitted by Staci on Sat, 06/30/2012 - 13:35 | I think you should have (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33848#comment-33848)
I think you should have picked a better example to illustrate the type of male beauty that women like. Most women find hiper-muscular men unappealing. The physical male ideal for women is a man athletic muscled but not extremely as bodybuilders. We prefer male fitness models type. Men of your photos also show a low rating of facial attractiveness. I'll use an example more appropriate prototype of male beauty.
I posted the pictures of fitness model Marc Fitt. Great body and a very attractive face.
302 Found (http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s515/fran197823/?action=view&current=423473_371653389518133_353297390_n.jpg)
302 Found (http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s515/fran197823/?action=view&current=IMG-20120416-WA0007.jpg)
302 Found (http://s1055.photobucket.com/albums/s515/fran197823/?action=view&current=563946_487462664603871_1745896677_n.jpg)




»
#70 | Submitted by Erik (http://www.femininebeauty.info/) on Sun, 07/01/2012 - 18:33 | Staci: The article is not (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/33850#comment-33850)
Staci: The article is not about illustrating what kind of men are liked by women, but about issues in evaluating the masculinity of men. Some of these issues are best clarified by using examples of extremely muscular men.




»
#71 | Submitted by Marija on Wed, 08/08/2012 - 21:10 | Not quite clear (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/34000#comment-34000)
Erik, I don't really understand where you concluded from that Swedish or Northern European women are on average more feminine than Asian or Black women?
Do they have higher estrogen levels than Asian or Black women?




»
#72 | Submitted by Marija on Wed, 08/08/2012 - 21:40 | Erik, (http://www.femininebeauty.info/comment/34001#comment-34001)
Erik,
You say:
"As in women, it is important to look at multiple characteristics in men to assess how masculine/feminine they are".
"Finnish women are more feminine than West African women" "Swedish women are more feminine than Finnish women"
Do you have a source for this, or is this based on your personal views/observations/opinions?
I am very interested in how you got to this conclusion,
~a Dutch female









http://www.femininebeauty.info/masculinization-feminization-in-men

[natina]

10 Handsome Men (Who Were Born Female)

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MAN TOOL FTM PENIS surgery

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[natina]

CoolSculpting


CoolSculpting by ZELTIQ™ is a breakthrough, non-invasive technology that chills away stubborn fat. CoolSculpting gently targets and cools unwanted fat cells in the selected area to induce a noticeable, natural-looking reduction in fat bulges. You’ve probably heard some of the hype about this new technology that can “freeze” fat away. You may have seen Coolsculpting featured on The Dr. Oz Show, Good Morning America, or Nightline. We agree, this is one “cool” therapy. The buzz is warranted.


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CoolSculpting by Remedy - The Dr. Oz Show - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cugGVefdiO4&feature=player_embedded)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-doiRnUVIv4

[natina]

CoolSculpting

before and after photos

[natina]

under arm breast implant has an almost undetectable invisible scar

[natina]

Cryolipolysis, popularly known as CoolSculpting


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryolipolysis


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=1284414&postcount=69

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=1284422&postcount=70

[natina]

Transgender Time Lapse Video Shows Three-Year Male To Female Transition
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/transgender-time-lapse-video-transition_n_2441099.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/transgender-time-lapse-video-transition_n_2441099.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/transgender-time-lapse-video-transition_n_2441099.html
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NO comments on coolsculpting yet?

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=68504&page=7
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=68504&page=7
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=68504&page=7
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=68504&page=7








CoolSculpting






CoolSculpting by ZELTIQ™ is a breakthrough, non-invasive technology that chills away stubborn fat. CoolSculpting gently targets and cools unwanted fat cells in the selected area to induce a noticeable, natural-looking reduction in fat bulges. You’ve probably heard some of the hype about this new technology that can “freeze” fat away. You may have seen Coolsculpting featured on The Dr. Oz Show, Good Morning America, or Nightline. We agree, this is one “cool” therapy. The buzz is warranted.


http://www.remedyskinandbody.com/services/body-treatments/


CoolSculpting by Remedy - The Dr. Oz Show - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cugGVefdiO4&feature=player_embedded)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-doiRnUVIv4







CoolSculpting





before and after photos


Cryolipolysis, popularly known as CoolSculpting


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryolipolysis


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=1284414&postcount=69

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=1284422&postcount=70

[natina]

Shocking Celebrity Plastic Surgery Disasters

Sometimes plastic surgery can take an individual from ordinary to extraordinary. Othertimes, it can be the worst decision of your life. From shifting botox to liposuction mishaps, these are the most shocking plastic surgery mistakes!

http://www.hollyscoop.com/galleries/shocking-celebrity-plastic-surgery-disasters/833136
http://www.hollyscoop.com/galleries/shocking-celebrity-plastic-surgery-disasters/833136
http://www.hollyscoop.com/galleries/shocking-celebrity-plastic-surgery-disasters/833136
http://www.hollyscoop.com/galleries/shocking-celebrity-plastic-surgery-disasters/833136

[adameast]

This girl works as an escort in Northampton. Maximum tattoos and also a fake vagina. Whatever floats your boat....

Is it possible to craft a vagina from the scrotum leaving the penis undisturbed?

[themaster]

Is it possible to craft a vagina from the scrotum leaving the penis undisturbed?
In the Body Modification community there is a mod called "Transscrotal." it's where they place a hole in in the ballsack, it goes from one end to another.

I had it done, it's more of a sexual thing, but not a substitute for SRS. The process is done in the underground. Doctors will never do this process, it done by body modification artist. It looks nothing like a pussy.

For pics here you go
http://www.google.com/search?q=transscrotal&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Fva1UvbAJafIsAS43ICwDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAA&biw=1024&bih=672

[itachi]

This girl works as an escort in Northampton. Maximum tattoos and also a fake vagina. Whatever floats your boat....

I REALLY Want to know how this was done! I would LOVE to have this done to myself!!!!!!!!!

[itachi]

would LOVE for this! <3

[natina]

Ideal to real: What the 'perfect' body really looks like for men and women

Each set of 3-D illustration images shown was created for TODAY to reflect the body size and shape dimensions from a study in 2012. Above is the "ideal" body of a woman (left). On the right, the average body of a young woman, based on BMI.

If each of us could design our ideal body, what would it look like? How do we develop these ideals and how close do our own bodies come to them? Does that ideal really matter?

As part of the "Love Your Selfie, Reclaiming Beauty" series, TODAY wanted to visualize how far we are from what we imagine is the ideal figure and our average bodies. Pittsburgh artist Nickolay Lamm — who previously showed the world what Barbie would look like as an average 19-year-old woman — shows our "real" selves in a set of 3-D illustrations for TODAY, based on recent British study.

British researchers gave young heterosexual Caucasian men and women a chance to design ideal bodies, one for themselves and one for a hypothetical mate. The study used 40 female and 40 male heterosexuals with an average age of just over 19 — university students, mainly. They presented each person with 3-D computer representations of bodies. Each participant could adjust the images in many different ways until they arrived at the ideal body for their gender, and the ideal body of the other gender. These ideals were then compared with the participants’ own bodies.

The results of this study revealed a couple of surprises. First, the ideals ran across genders. Men and women barely differed in their opinion of what an ideal body looked like, whether the ideal was for a male or a female.

Essentially, the male ideal is an inverted pyramid with broad shoulders and small waist, while the female ideal is an hourglass with a small waist-to-hip ratio. Second, both women and men preferred slimmer female bodies than the real female participants possessed.

http://www.today.com/health/ideal-real-what-perfect-body-really-looks-men-women-2D79582595

[notme122]

i have scarifaction done on my chest and 4 silicone implants in my arm under a tattoo to give it shape, never saw this thread love it

[natina]

check out



silicone pumping and more

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=51083
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=51083
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i have scarifaction done on my chest and 4 silicone implants in my arm under a tattoo to give it shape, never saw this thread love it

[natina]

build a surgery package



http://www.transop.com/index.php/component/dmeasyquote/?view=quote"eId=5 (http://www.transop.com/index.php/component/dmeasyquote/?view=quote&quoteId=5)

http://www.transop.com/index.php/pricing/packages

[natina]

Vlog 15 -female voice/surgery-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFbyHIqZuL8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ND6ZUB6_Y


http://voicedoctor.net/surgery/pitch/feminization-laryngoplasty

[natina]

How to Develop a Female Voice
http://heartcorps.com/journeys/voice.htm

Male to Female: Voice Feminization
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a02_j7PGTPI

[natina]

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1526994


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=88796&page=3

[natina]

World's first penis REDUCTION surgery: Teenager requested op after his manhood grew so large it stopped him having sex


17-year-old complained his penis was too large, stopping him have sex
It measured 7ins in length and had a circumference of 10ins when flaccid
Despite the size, his penis did not grow when erect - it just became firmer
Surgeon said: 'It's girth was just massive' and was shaped like rugby ball
Doctors didn't take post op measurements but said it was still 'generous'
'It was a life-changing event, he's all smiles,' urologist told MailOnline
WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT
A 17-year-old boy has undergone the world's first penis reduction surgery, surgeons claim.
The American teen requested the surgery after his penis grew too large, restricting his ability to have sex or play competitive sports.
The boy's surgeons were shocked when he came to them complaining that his penis was too big.
When flaccid, it measured almost seven inches in length and had a circumference of 10 inches - around the size of a grapefruit.
Surgeons described it as being shaped like an American football.
The surgeon who treated the teenager, Rafael Carrion, a urologist at the University of South Florida, told MailOnline: 'There comes a time in every urologist's career that a patient makes a request so rare and impossible to comprehend that all training breaks down and leaves the physician speechless.
'That question was "can you make my penis smaller"?'



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/12/2599285600000578-2950409-image-a-5_1423732637476.jpgA 17-year-old boy in Florida is thought to be the first person to undergo penis reduction surgery. The teenager requested the operation after his penis (pictured on an X-ray) grew too large

The teenager had suffered from several bouts of priapism - an unwanted erection, due to having a condition in which abnormally-shaped blood cells block vessels in the penis, causing it to swell.
These episodes had left his penis bloated and misshapen.
He said he was unable to have sex or play competitive sport, had difficulty wearing his pants due to his 'large and heavy phallus', and was embarrassed by how visible it appeared underneath regular clothing.
Though his penis was so large, it did not grow when he had erections - it merely became firmer.
'His penis had inflated like a balloon,' said Dr Carrion.
'It sounds like a man's dream - a tremendously inflated phallus - but unfortunately although it was a generous length, it's girth was just massive, especially around the middle


'It looked like an American football.'
Dr Carrion and his team looked at the medical literature but couldn't find any precedent for what to do.
'Lord knows there's a global race on how to make it longer and thicker in plastic surgery circles, but very little on how to make it smaller,' he said.
In the end, they decided to embark on a surgical technique normally used to treat Peyronie's disease, a condition where scar tissue develops along the penis, causing it to bend.
The surgeons sliced along an old circumcision scar, unwrapped the skin of the penis, and cut out two segments of tissue from either side.
'It was a bit like having two side tummy-tucks - that's how we explained it to him,' said Dr Carrion.

The doctors were able to bypass the urethra - the tube which carries urine through the penis - and all of the nerves that provide sensation.
The teenager spent just two days in hospital before returning home, apparently 'ecstatic' with his new penis.
The doctors did not take final measurements of the penis, although Dr Carrion told MailOnline the result was 'generous'.

There comes a time in every urologist's career that a patient makes a request that leaves a physician speechless. That question was "can you make my penis smaller"?'
Rafael Carrion, urologist at the University of South Florida


'It's slightly longer and slightly thicker than the average male, but now it looks symmetrical, and the patient was very satisfied,' he said.
The teen now has no problem having normal erections and has full sensation.
'It looks cosmetically appealing, and he said it was a life-changing event, he's all smiles,' said Carrion.
Since the paper describing the surgery was published in The Journal of Sexual Medicine, Dr Carrion has only had one person approach him to request the same surgery.
He said: 'This [second] man seems to have a naturally large penis, because there's nothing unusual in his medical history, so it doesn't seem like there's any real abnormality in this case'.
Whereas the first teenager had an obvious medical condition that needed treating, performing surgery on someone who is completely healthy but having difficulties with the size of his penis is another matter, said Dr Carrion.
'These are controversial waters we're stepping in,' he added. 'Who is to judge what is a legitimate complaint and what isn't?
'You don't normally have men complaining about this kind of thing. These are very unique cases.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2950409/World-s-penis-REDUCTION-surgery-Teenager-requested-op-genitals-grew-large-stopped-having-sex.html

[natina]

Obsession with plastic surgery nearly kills model

A Brazilian model and beauty contestant runner-up says her obsession with cosmetic surgery almost cost her her life. Shasta Darlington reports.



http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/obsession-with-plastic-surgery-nearly-kills-model/vi-BBhCNjV

[cdejours]

Hello,
Do you have information regarding partial or cosmetic SRS (SRS without vaginal opening)?
Have a nice day

[natina]

MOST AMAZING TRANSFORMATION of

Sona Avedian

pages 14,16 and 19 are the MOST AMAZING


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https://frockmagazine.com/frock028/files/assets/common/downloads/page0017.pdf

https://frockmagazine.com/frock028/files/assets/common/downloads/page0019.pdf

https://frockmagazine.com/frock028/files/assets/common/downloads/page0016.pdf

[natina]

https://www.thailandmedicalvacations.com/transgender-services.html"I AINT GOT NO MONEY. ""I'M BROKE"​I'm swapping a few emails with a self described "Pro-Domme." TV of course. And she's telling me "she's broke?" I'm thinking to myself how much some of these Ladyboys in Thailand bring home a week... or a night? And words we cannot say of course... immediately come to mind. "What kinda "pro" are you?" "You're broke?" She's into BDSM as a pro and she's broke?Do you people have even the faintest idea what some of these Ladyboys can bring in off of GoGo dancing? Prostitution? Normal street hustling? A Sugar Daddy or three? And all off of fat slob white guys from the US, EU, UK, Australia, Israel. US military "invented" both Pattaya and Soi Cowboy. Two most notorious red light districts on the planet. And you should see the way these 60 year old guys go after these kids. (Over 19 yo kids.) And don't forget the military types. All nationalities. All ages. Go to youtube and pull up "Patong, Pattaya, Bangal Road, Ladyboys." The word is Kathoey. Look at the patrons of the bars. And you tell me those Ladyboys are broke? A little charm. A lot of smiles. Hanging out. Few other things. And within a week they have folded up $1000's and parked it... in their bras. Learn how to flirt. The glance of the eye? The flash of the smile? Being nice? It might work for ya? "I am so disappointed in Americas youth."While we are speaking franky.. Some of the CD's, tran's guys in the US need to give some serious consideration to a different surgery.. Lap ban surgery is available for the obese. (Under $20,000) Tummy tucks for guys. Common.After weight loss? After exercise? After some initial surgeries? You go for some skin rejuvenation and your looks could be something that brings you some significant self esteem. Fact. You will see dockworker - lumberjack types fem up into some genuinely attractive ladies. Muscle tone. That's why.See what those Ladyboys look like after surgery. Now go to youtube and pull it up. Get this in your 20's and while you're lean? You will be going to the same Surgeons that have worked on 10,000 of these gurls. Period. S.R.S. Surgery ... Transgender Serviceshttps://www.thailandmedicalvacations.com/facial-feminization-1.html

[natina]

What a ass

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?88796-what-a-ASS

[natina]

Penis length and width increase.
This will help you.

http://www.drelist.com/suspensory-ligament-release


when-testosterone-replacement-doesn't-lead-to-better-erections-part-1
http://defymedical.com/resources/hea...ections-part-1


Testosterone aromatises into estrogen and not reverse.

[natina]

Woman trains her waist down to 16 inches using a steelboned corset

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/real-life-jessica-rabbit-16-inch-waist-4517002 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/real-life-jessica-rabbit-16-inch-waist-4517002)

[natina]

High definition body sculpting is here.





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2771869/Why-Avatars-special-effects-guru-showing-surgeons-one-Elle-body.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2771869/Why-Avatars-special-effects-guru-showing-surgeons-one-Elle-body.htmlulpting)

[natina]

All slaves bodies get modified and branded.
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?50869-how-many-TS-here-have-ever-had-a-SLAVE

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?50869-how-many-TS-here-have-ever-had-a-SLAVE&p=1712498#post1712498


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?71165-IN-JAIL-WITH-NO-BAIL-for-FORCE-FEMINIZING-MALES/page2

[natina]

"I AINT GOT NO MONEY. ""I'M BROKE"​I'm swapping a few emails with a self described "Pro-Domme." TV of course. And she's telling me "she's broke?" I'm thinking to myself how much some of these Ladyboys in Thailand bring home a week... or a night? And words we cannot say of course... immediately come to mind. "What kinda "pro" are you?"
"You're broke?" She's into BDSM as a pro and she's broke?Do you people have even the faintest idea what some of these Ladyboys can bring in off of GoGo dancing? Prostitution? Normal street hustling? A Sugar Daddy or three? And all off of fat slob white guys from the US, EU, UK, Australia, Israel. US military "invented" both Pattaya and Soi Cowboy. Two most notorious red light districts on the planet. And you should see the way these 60 year old guys go after these kids. (Over 19 yo kids.) And don't forget the military types. All nationalities. All ages. Go to youtube and pull up "Patong, Pattaya, Bangal Road, Ladyboys."

The word is Kathoey. Look at the patrons of the bars. And you tell me those Ladyboys are broke? A little charm. A lot of smiles. Hanging out. Few other things. And within a week they have folded up $1000's and parked it... in their bras. Learn how to flirt. The glance of the eye? The flash of the smile? Being nice? It might work for ya? "I am so disappointed in Americas youth."While we are speaking franky.. Some of the CD's, tran's guys in the US need to give some serious consideration to a different surgery..

Lap ban surgery is available for the obese. (Under $20,000) Tummy tucks for guys. Common.After weight loss? After exercise? After some initial surgeries? You go for some skin rejuvenation and your looks could be something that brings you some significant self esteem.

Fact. You will see dockworker - lumberjack types fem up into some genuinely attractive ladies. Muscle tone. That's why.See what those Ladyboys look like after surgery. Now go to youtube and pull it up. Get this in your 20's and while you're lean? You will be going to the same Surgeons that have worked on 10,000 of these gurls. Period. S.R.S. Surgery ... Transgender Services


https://www.thailandmedicalvacations.com/transgender-services.html

[natina]

Airsculpt laser liposuction

Laser Liposuction

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/healthtrending/what-happened-when-i-tried-laser-liposuction/ar-BBHa6xX?li=BBnba9O#image=BBHa6xX_0|1




http://www.elitebodysculpture.com/gallery/



https://www.allure.com/story/airsculpt-before-and-after-photos


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aJKOgeXg20o

[natina]

1049331

[natina]

What the fuck??










Oh, yeah...this.

He transformed now

[natina]

1115720

1115721

1115722

[natina]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-46434480https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-46434480https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-46434480https://www.thesudburystar.com/news/world/who-what-wow-the-week-in-weird-26/wcm/0780719e-54ce-4fe1-8cc9-469a1aea6e95
111572011157211115722

[natina]

https://www.thesudburystar.com/news/world/who-what-wow-the-week-in-weird-26/wcm/0780719e-54ce-4fe1-8cc9-469a1aea6e95

[natina]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os1uI-n0fNs



video of male castration surgery https://motherless.com/g/castration/011124A

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?71109-testosterone-to-blame-for-men%92s-shortened-lives/page2

practice makes perfect

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z8d77


http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?68504-BODY-MODIFICATIONS-THREAD-post-surgeries-amp-body-modifications-here

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?51083-post-silicone-pumping-video-s-here

[natina]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pksPvo3WSCM

[natina]

https://1013.iheart.com/alternate/amp/2018-02-08-man-poses-as-female-and-beats-4000-women-to-win-beauty-pageant/



Man Poses As Female And Beats 4,000 Women To Win Beauty Pageant...

male model Ilay Dyagilev entered a female beauty pageant

[natina]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gbf0uUfW_YIvan Rastrepin

[natina]

Ilay Dyagilev

1140648


11406491140650

[natina]

Castration of man


https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f166/man-being-castrated-live-177451/

[natina]

Real woman perform human male castration.flv


https://ulozto.net/live/!WrAw1OW4H2YF/real-woman-perform-human-male-castration-flv



Castration of man live and awake

https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f166/man-being-castrated-live-177451/

[LilyRox]

Real woman perform human male castration.flv


https://ulozto.net/live/!WrAw1OW4H2YF/real-woman-perform-human-male-castration-flv



Castration of man live and awake

https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f166/man-being-castrated-live-177451/

You sick sick cookie.

[natina]

Simple orchiectomy for transgender patients

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=840oej-7KmU

[natina]

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-home


Silicone
http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-silicone-filler

Hormones, Orchiectomy. .....
http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-feminizing-therapy

hair removal
http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-hair-removal

[Castrated]

Bonjour,
je cherche pour une orchidectomie en France (ou Europe), quelqun a des infos, contacts ? merci

[diddyboponTOP]

i have scarifaction done on my chest and 4 silicone implants in my arm under a tattoo to give it shape, never saw this thread love it

You okay Fam? U have a stroke or something?

[natina]

Cosmetic castration banned

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-testicles-idUSBKK32992720080402

BANGKOK (Reuters) - Thailand’s health chiefs barred hospitals and clinics on Wednesday from castrating would-be “ladyboys” amid growing concern about the operation being seen as a cheap and quick alternative to a full sex-change.

In a letter to 16,000 private health units, the Public Health Ministry said doctors performing the operation outside formal sex-change therapy -- which requires rigorous physical and mental evaluation of the patient -- faced up to six months in jail.


However, senior health official Tara Chinakarn admitted that policing the temporary ban might be difficult as cosmetic removal of the testicles was such a quick operation and easy to conduct in secret.

“It’s hard to track them down as it takes only 15-20 minutes to have the surgery,” Tara told Reuters.

Thailand is home to a large number of “ladyboys,” or “katoey” in Thai, a term that covers anything from a transvestite to a man who has undergone a full sex change.

The tolerance shown towards the “third sex,” as it is often referred to, has led to the country becoming a world leader in sex-change surgery.

However, at the lower end of the market, clinics have responded to demand from teenage boys to look more like girls by posting Internet advertisements offering castration for as little as 4,000 baht ($125).


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-testicles-idUSBKK32992720080402

[natina]

13966121396613

Thailand is home to a large number of “ladyboys,” or “katoey” in Thai, a term that covers anything from a transvestite to a man who has undergone a full sex change.

The tolerance shown towards the “third sex,” as it is often referred to, has led to the country becoming a world leader in sex-change surgery.

However, at the lower end of the market, clinics have responded to demand from teenage boys to look more like girls by posting Internet advertisements offering castration for as little as 4,000 baht ($125).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-testicles-idUSBKK32992720080402