Black Transgender Not Allowed to Claim Self-Defense ...

[GroobySteven]

www.democracynow.org/2012/4/27/cece_mcdonald_black_transgender_woman_faces

A transgender African-American woman is set to go on trial next week on charges of second-degree murder for an altercation after she was reportedly physically attacked and called racist and homophobic slurs outside a Minneapolis bar last year. Chrishaun "CeCe" McDonald received 11 stitches to her cheek and was reportedly interrogated without counsel and placed in solitary confinement following her arrest. There were reports that the dead victim, Dean Schmitz, had a swastika tattooed on his chest. McDonald’s supporters say the case is symptomatic of the bias against transgender people and African Americans in the criminal justice system. "People were very enraged about what had happened to her and the refusal of Hennepin County to recognize her right to self-defense," says Katie Burgess, executive director of Trans Youth Support Network, who has helped draw attention to the case and notes transgender people of color are twice as likely to experience discrimination as their white peers. We also speak with Rai’vyn Cross, one of McDonald’s best friends.

http://outfrontcolorado.com/ofcblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/schmitz_20110607232456_320_240.jpg
Schmitz’s brother said in a statement that Schmitz is prone to making racist remarks depending “on his mood.”

[rydermorrison]

This is so disturbing and sad.. not to mention scary. She's been locked up almost a whole year already! I cant imagine what she must b going through, but her trial starts monday. Hopefully justice will be served and this horrible injustice committed against her will be rectified... I cant believe this is the reality in America...

[dabaldone]

This is a travesty of justice plain and simple. She was verbally and physically attacked and simply defended herself.

[Merkurie]

Sad to say I have no problem believing this happened in America.

What do they think she attacked some skinhead?

[TS CANDY NY]

i am lost for words i watch her response video and she's been in jail for almost a year. three against one is for punks, no women or (WIMP) men should challenge a person or pick a fight with a person they have no knowledge of knowing what that person is capable of doing

[TS CANDY NY]

Lets not forget she has no criminal record and was attend college

[lifeisfiction]

Self-defense is a claim that can be raised at trial not prior. She really needs a good attorney. She has the case and the attention in her favor. As Candy said, no criminal record and good opinion in the community with her educational career will really help.

She should be able to win with not much trouble. Sadly law comes down to affording good representation.

The main thing is Montana has no duty retreat, which was passed around 2009. That means a person doesn’t have a duty to retreat to a safe place before defending themselves. Once they retreated they can then use force equal to the force given (in most states) meets the exemptions.

Using a weapon, empty bottle raises the actions to the level of deadly force a person in most jurisdictions with no duty to retreat can retaliate with deadly force. Therefore excusing the second murder, which by the description is based on the heat of passion (part of the involuntary manslaughter).

If she can get a good lawyer she will win her case and probable sue under civil. Probable issues on her arrest if she had indicated for counsel after her Miranda rights, violation of 4 amendment rights.

Sorry for legal spat (a law degree does has it advantages). If you more on my thoughts you can pm me, I don't feel like posting long answer.

[mildcigar_2001]

[QUOTE=seanchai;1132129] ...and placed in solitary confinement following her arrest. http://outfrontcolorado.com/ofcblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/schmitz_20110607232456_320_240.jpg

I have no idea as to the merits of this case, but it is silly to complain that a TS was placed in solitary confinement. If you are a jail administrator do you place her with the boys or the girls. Placing her with the boys will be promlematic for her, and placing her with the girls will be problematic for the girls. Also complaining that she has been in jail for one year doesn't work either. The accused can either post bail or if unable to post bail has the right to demand a speedy trial (if she has been sitting in jail her counsel has been putting in continuances).

[onmyknees]

Strange.
Minneapolis is a pretty progressive city, but if your looking for some reasonable explanation........don't. Justice is not always even handed. Having had several bouts with the legal system, I can atest to that. There's a case in NYC now...a white middle aged soccer Mom was arrested for running a high end call girl service. I have no idea if she was...or wasn't a madame, but I know the bail seems exessive at 2 million. She still can't post it.

The vid and the article are pretty light on facts, but if she was defending herself as her friends claim.....I hope she's aquited.

[Ben]

CeCe McDonald: Black, Transgender Woman Faces Murder Trial as Supporters Allege Self-Defense - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioGArj2Pzw)

[giovanni_hotel]

Awful story and in a way bothers me more than the Trayvon Martin murder.

Justice and the legal system aren't one in the same.
I wish someone like Rachel Maddow would give this story some coverage.

[MrsKellyPierce]

This is so wrong and crazy

[Ben]

Awful story and in a way bothers me more than the Trayvon Martin murder.

Justice and the legal system aren't one in the same.
I wish someone like Rachel Maddow would give this story some coverage.

I can't find any other coverage apart from Democracy Now. Has the mainstream press covered it? And nothing from Rachel Maddow as far as I know.

CeCe McDonald: Black, Transgender Woman Faces Murder Trial as Supporters Allege Self-Defense - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioGArj2Pzw)

[Ben]

Support grows for CeCe McDonald as trial date nears

By Imani Henry

Published Apr 11, 2012 9:35 PM


Tens of thousands of people across the U.S. and around the world have mobilized to demand the arrest of Trayvon Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman. Because Zimmerman maintains that he acted in self-defense, he has not been arrested by the Sanford, Fla., police department or charged by the prosecutor.
http://www.workers.org/2012/us/CeCe-McDonald_0301.jpg

CeCe McDonald

The legal justification of self-defense in the U.S has not worked in the same way for most people of color, women and lesbian/gay/bi/trans people, many of whom survive brutal bigoted attacks and then are arrested and convicted for defending themselves. John White, an African-American father living in Long Island, N.Y., was convicted of murder for protecting his son from an angry white mob in 2006. The New Jersey 7, young Black lesbians who defended themselves against a vicious anti-lesbian attack, were arrested and four of them sentenced to from three-and-a-half to 11 years in prison.
This holds true in the case of Chrishaun “CeCe” McDonald, a 23-year-old African-American trans woman who was attacked by patrons of a Minneapolis tavern on June 5 of last year. While McDonald and her friends were on their way to a nearby grocery store, the patrons assaulted them with racist and anti-LGBT slurs. Many of the vicious remarks were directed at McDonald, as a Black trans woman. All of McDonald’s friends were people of color and youths, while those who attacked them were all white and older.
Desperate for help and covered in blood from having a glass mug smashed in her face, it was McDonald who first approached police arriving on the scene. The police arrested her and to this day have made no arrests against her attackers. And while there is no physical evidence tying her to the stabbing of Dean Schmitz, one of the men who attacked her, McDonald now faces second-degree murder charges.
As McDonald’s April 30 trial date approaches, national outrage has strengthened the political campaign to have the charges dropped.
“Our goal is to deliver a petition with 10,000 signatures on April 24 to Michael Freeman, the Hennepin County attorney, demanding he drop the charges against CeCe,” Billy Navarro Jr., an organizer with the CeCe McDonald Support Committee based in Minneapols, told Workers World. On April 24, McDonald must appear in court for a pre-trial hearing. “Young people from the Trans Youth Support Network have planned a ‘dance party’ protest right in front of Freeman’s office on April 26. [McDonald] is a valued community member, and we want to show that there is support for her not only here but also around the country.”
CeCe ‘a leader and role model’
“CeCe in many ways is a leader and role model. Back when this happened, the newspapers called her a man and only used her birth name. We all know her as CeCe, so it took a few days before the community sprang into action. It has been hard on our community not having her with us,” said Navarro.
McDonald was born in Chicago in 1989 and came out as a trans person at the age of 14. After moving to Minneapolis, she became active in the community, often participating in panels against racism and trans oppression. Talented in fashion design, CeCe had been pursuing her associate’s degree in fashion at a local college for the last two years. She supported herself through a part-time job at a café.
One of McDonald’s most important contributions was taking care of younger LGBT youth. According to Navarro: “She was the one with stable housing and finances, so she took in people younger than her so they wouldn’t end up on the streets. She created a sense of family for them. … Some of those young people were forced to go back to living in hostile, anti-gay family situations or are now surfing from couch to couch.”
Another thing that has been hard for McDonald is that her birth family lives far away. “CeCe is a fighter and is generally so strong, but this is one thing she really gets emotional about,” said Navarro. “She misses her mother and siblings in Chicago so much, and they are really supportive of her. But it is so expensive for them to travel here for her court dates. We are trying to raise money or have miles donated to bring her family here for the trial on April 30.”
Growing national campaign
“Since this whole thing started, we have packed the courtroom, the hallway and rallied outside at every court date,” said Navarro. “The biggest one drew over 100 supporters. We want to have people from all over the Midwest come out for both the pre-trial hearing on April 24 and the first day of trial on April 30.”
The committee is seeking endorsements as well as letters of solidarity to be sent to Freeman from individuals, unions and political groups. Midwest groups such as OutFront Minnesota, the African-American and African Studies Department of the University of Minnesota, the Trans Youth Support Network, the Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies Department of Macalester College, the Women’s Prison Book Project and the Wisconsin Bail Out the People Movement have joined the effort.
Nationally, groups like the Transgender Gender Variance Intersex Justice Project, the Transgender Law Center in California and Queers for Economic Justice in New York have called for the charges to be dropped. Trans historian and author Leslie Feinberg has begun a call within the labor movement for labor union activists and unions to send solidarity statements. Support committees and activist groups are raising funds and holding events in Brooklyn and Buffalo, N.Y.; Bloomington, Ind.; Chicago; San Francisco and Oakland, Calif.; and Boston.
“We have gotten pictures from the International Women’s Day march on March 31 in New York City that carried signs about CeCe, and we have even been in touch with activists in Paris who are building support around CeCe’s case,” said Navarro. “Between now and April 30, we need events, fundraisers and to get CeCe’s name out all over the press. We not only want to free CeCe but we want to take a stand against racist transphobic attacks happening all over the country.”

[fred41]

Thank you for bringing this case to our attention...it shows that even though there is "some" increased enlightenment in the world, it is still an incredibly hostile world for anyone that is considered "different" from mainstream society. Unfortunately TGs will be always be there to receive the brunt of hateful attention from people like Dean Schmitz (though he is now out of the equation), but people like him will always find someone to hate on.

I can't find anything though, that says she's not allowed to claim self-defense. That's something that will be determined at trial.

[buttslinger]

I was going to post a whole thread on "facts and statistics" on transgenders. The numbers say it's no picnic being a TS.
It turned into a big mess, because some studies contradict others, and each country is different, and each city is different, the stats in San Francisco are WAY different than Boise.
All the studies in the US say the Justice System looks at transgenders as born troublemakers.

[mildcigar_2001]

Awful story and in a way bothers me more than the Trayvon Martin murder.

Justice and the legal system aren't one in the same.
I wish someone like Rachel Maddow would give this story some coverage.


If she has a dick still attached, I don't envision Rachel Maddow going anyplace near the story.

Seriously Rachel Maddow and not Sgt. Schultz?? Come on.

[mildcigar_2001]

I was going to post a whole thread on "facts and statistics" on transgenders. The numbers say it's no picnic being a TS.
It turned into a big mess, because some studies contradict others, and each country is different, and each city is different, the stats in San Francisco are WAY different than Boise.
All the studies in the US say the Justice System looks at transgenders as born troublemakers.


What do you expect if you don't easily fit into a box, then you are a troublemaker. For example, God forbid if a Republican might comment on this forum.

[brickcitybrother]

This is not good, but typical. Strip away the top layer and you'll see that it is the victim that wags the judicial dog. That is why the killing of minorities does not generate as much interest as the killing of a caucasian. This will not go well.

[Helvis2012]

Bullshit.

[robertlouis]

What do you expect if you don't easily fit into a box, then you are a troublemaker. For example, God forbid if a Republican might comment on this forum.

There are plenty around and you don't have to look too far.

gAnd, just in passing, given the GOP's current stance on women's and gay rights, can you or anyone else explain what exactly a card-carrying Republican might be doing on a forum like this?

[bte]

There are plenty around and you don't have to look too far.

gAnd, just in passing, given the GOP's current stance on women's and gay rights, can you or anyone else explain what exactly a card-carrying Republican might be doing on a forum like this?

Wasn't Ericka a card-carrying Republican?

[robertlouis]

Wasn't Ericka a card-carrying Republican?

Yep, and they turned on her in a big way. Hardly surprising though.

[Helvis2012]

There are plenty around and you don't have to look too far.

gAnd, just in passing, given the GOP's current stance on women's and gay rights, can you or anyone else explain what exactly a card-carrying Republican might be doing on a forum like this?



Boom! It's a fair question. I'd love to see the answer.

[nonnonnon]

I'm gonna guess they like transsexual pornography for masturbatory purposes

[mildcigar_2001]

Boom! It's a fair question. I'd love to see the answer.


As far as I know the position of the Obama and the Republican Party on Gay marriage is the same. I'm from the libertarian wing of the party, and don't really care as long as it is not judicially imposed.

As far as woman's rights goes, I think the party (and myself) believes in equal rights for woman. The party's last VP nominee was a woman for God's sake. What we don't approve of is abortion (I think it is murder plain and simple). Also we believe that if someone wants to be on the pill they need to pay for it themelves (or don't engage in sex). It is interesting that Gov. Palin and Gov. Haley are both called sluts and worse by the left, but it is okay to attack these women because they are Republican. I don't know that it is pro-woman to attack Mitt Romney's wife because she stayed home and took care of the kids (six I think). It is amazing that people sit around and make this stuff up and then write an opinion piece in the Puffington Host and then it becomes fact.

I don't know others rational for becoming Republicans, but from the time I was going up and earlier (McGovern) the Democrats have always been soft on national defense, and seem to want to take away more and more of my hard earned money (and give it to people who don't work 60+ hours per week like I do). I'm not crazy about the Rick Santorum wing of the party, but they scare me a lot less than the Occupy WS crowd.

[onmyknees]

This is not good, but typical. Strip away the top layer and you'll see that it is the victim that wags the judicial dog. That is why the killing of minorities does not generate as much interest as the killing of a caucasian. This will not go well.

That's bullshit........


You're doing the same thing here as dozens of other did in the last case. In situations like this, the prosecutor never shows their cards until discovery, so everyone is free to lay out the scenario to coincide with whatever their opinions and agendas are. Yours is obvious. After reading pages of wild hyperbole on the Trayvon Martin case, I'm convinced there are some people who've convinced themselves they know exactly what happened, and no matter what the evidence at trial, they'll never accept any outcome but the one THEY have imagined based on thier own bias.

Sure...on the surface this looks sketchy and suspicious, but I've yet to hear the whole story, and neither have you. You and the other folks can work yourself up into a racial frenzy if you're so inclined, but innocent folks are getting hurt because of that kind of shit.... or maybe you haven't heard, or don't care. Few facts are going to come out on this until trial. I hope the chic makes bail while awaiting trial but that's not a determination on her guilt or innocence....neither is her skin color or her gender, nor the fact the victim might have been a scum bag, nor the kind words from her friends.

[onmyknees]

There are plenty around and you don't have to look too far.

gAnd, just in passing, given the GOP's current stance on women's and gay rights, can you or anyone else explain what exactly a card-carrying Republican might be doing on a forum like this?



I'll tell you what were not doing......kissing everyone's ass in desperate hope of being accepted by the crowd. Really dude.....you're the most pathetic desperate individual on here....didn't you get the hint the last time you got run off? You're obviously a slow learner . What's your point...that only people who believe what you believe should be allowed to participate ? Is that the little monolith world you live in? Your own little fantasy where everybody sees things like you? Maybe you were cut out to live in a commune in the 60's, you got the guitar...lmao...but you're a little late. Are you intimidated by those who see things differently than you do? You must be because you're obsessed ......and in the same breath, you'll tell us about your infinite liberal capacity for tolerance and diversity. ......unless of course it's diversity of opinion. What a complete hypocritical asshole.


It's cool to believe what you believe, but stop misrepresenting what others believe. If you must inject your politics into every post...try telling us what you think and why....not your interpretation and misrepresentation of what others think. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you from injecting your foolishness every chance you get. Your posts read like the headlines in those liberal British tabloids. Go out and make some real friends, and give this internet suck up thing a rest. This is after all the internet dude....these people really don't give a shit about you...they're not going to come listen to you play your guitar, they're not going to visit you if you get sick, in fact...they didn't even know you were gone last time....so stop trying so hard, it's embarrassing, and more importantly....stop misrepresenting what others believe. Got it?

[giovanni_hotel]

OMK, in one case you're defending the shooter as potentially being justified for what he did.
In this case, you're defending law enforcement who've kept this woman jailed for almost a year for what appears to be justifiable homicide(self-defense).

Why the inconsistency??

BTW this is about her gender, not skin color.

[trish]

As far as woman's rights goes, I think the party (and myself) believes in equal rights for woman. That’s why republicans in several states seriously proposed raping women who sought abortions with transvaginal ultrasound probes (jamming an dildo up their cunts against their will and forcing them to watch it on an ultrasound monitor).


The party's last VP nominee was a woman for God's sake. Technically yes. Intellectually, however, she was a female orangutan, but some guys will vote for any milf-bimbo if they can build a masturbation fantasy around her.


What's your point...You fit right in here...as about as well a redneck in bib-overalls with his zipper down and crunching popcorn at Vienna State Opera during a performance of The Rigoletto.


Your own little fantasy...That would be the fantasy where people don't get murdered for wearing hoodies and where transgender women don't have to fear for their lives whenever they're alone on the street.


...unless of course it's diversity of opinion.Really? Who was claiming just days ago that some cultures are inferior to others and defining culture as including customs, beliefs, opinions....mmmmmm who was it.....starts with an mmmm ...ends with a cigar....that’s right...OMK’s best buddy...mildcigar. What a pair of misfit losers you guys are! LOL

[Paladin]

I'll tell you what were not doing......kissing everyone's ass in desperate hope of being accepted by the crowd. Really dude.....you're the most pathetic desperate individual on here....didn't you get the hint the last time you got run off? You're obviously a slow learner . What's your point...that only people who believe what you believe should be allowed to participate ? Is that the little monolith world you live in? Your own little fantasy where everybody sees things like you? Maybe you were cut out to live in a commune in the 60's, you got the guitar...lmao...but you're a little late. Are you intimidated by those who see things differently than you do? You must be because you're obsessed ......and in the same breath, you'll tell us about your infinite liberal capacity for tolerance and diversity. ......unless of course it's diversity of opinion. What a complete hypocritical asshole.


It's cool to believe what you believe, but stop misrepresenting what others believe. If you must inject your politics into every post...try telling us what you think and why....not your interpretation and misrepresentation of what others think. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you from injecting your foolishness every chance you get. Your posts read like the headlines in those liberal British tabloids. Go out and make some real friends, and give this internet suck up thing a rest. This is after all the internet dude....these people really don't give a shit about you...they're not going to come listen to you play your guitar, they're not going to visit you if you get sick, in fact...they didn't even know you were gone last time....so stop trying so hard, it's embarrassing, and more importantly....stop misrepresenting what others believe. Got it?

Don't bother; he's not even an American (at least not living here in the US which takes away his right to pontificate on how we live our lives here).

Don't forget that is it was British self-serving arrogance that set up the current middle eastern boundaries after WW1 that cause the whole region to be permanently fucked up.

And WRT trish - don't even bother reading the drivel coming from that person.

[Prospero]

I cannot believe the ignorance of posters like Paladin (I won't even begin to address the poison that is OMK). So the invasion of Iraq, spearheaded by Bush and the Neocons (and shamefully aided and abetted by the Blair administration here) had nothing to do with the mess that is the modern Middle East. Nor did the CIA and US inspired interventions and interference in many other parts of the region for the past 50 years. Nor does the US support for Saudi Arabia.Nor the presence of massive US bases in Bahrain and Qatar. Nor unswerving US support for Israel. And while we are at it - Paladin - (to borrow a leaf from your view of who is qualified to comment on things) let's not have YOU pontificate on the Middle East since I suspect you've not been there (please correct me if I'm wrong) and are not from there either.

[Prospero]

PS...

Paladin rote: "he's not even an American (at least not living here in the US which takes away his right to pontificate on how we live our lives here)."

The last time I saw someone seriously advance that line of argument was from supporters of the Apartheid regime in South Africa. Not comparing the US with S Africa, merely the mindset of this poster and his swaggering fellow travelers. Now who wants to shut down debate, eh OMK? You gonna blast Paladin for what you accuse the liberals off?

[KittyPride]

Placing her with the boys will be promlematic for her, and placing her with the girls will be problematic for the girls.

I have thought about this. And am not sure which place would be best... the men or the woman. Woman can be bullies to transwoman too you know.
Men might be glad to see a lady among them ;)

[mildcigar_2001]

That would be the fantasy where people don't get murdered for wearing hoodies and where transgender women don't have to fear for their lives whenever they're alone on the street.

Really? Who was claiming just days ago that some cultures are inferior to others and defining culture as including customs, beliefs, opinions....mmmmmm who was it.....starts with an mmmm ...ends with a cigar....that’s right...OMK’s best buddy...mildcigar. What a pair of misfit losers you guys are! LOL


"Trish X" Two quick points and I would like an honest answer if you dare. My bet is that you are not self-reflective enough to answer something other than the party line.

1) Where do you think you would be safer walking down the street, in the heart of nice Republican Orange County or in the deep blue heart of South Central LA? You know and I know you have a lot more to fear from a fellow Obama sympathizer than myself or another Republican (that is unless you are peeping in windows and casing the neighborhood for a burglary, also I'm assuming that you would leave your hoodie at home if you visit Orange County).

2) Second point is on the belief that some cultures are inferior to other (I think my point is self-obvious) as the below link demonstrates:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/egypts-farewell-intercourse-law-allowing-sex-dead-wives-065447484.html.

That is some serious fucked up shit (I can't even believe that a culture would attempt to sanction this kind of conduct). All cultures are not created equal. Attempt to walk down the streets of Mecca as a TS and see what happens to you (compare to walking in Vatican City, or even Salt Lake City).

[GroobySteven]

"


2) Second point is on the belief that some cultures are inferior to other (I think my point is self-obvious) as the below link demonstrates:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/egypts-farewell-intercourse-law-allowing-sex-dead-wives-065447484.html.



Final warning on this sort of shit.

[Prospero]

Mid Cigar - that spurious Post has already been shown to be bullshit - a lie. Check a post from Stavros on the subject a couple of days ago. You racists just keep on keeping on, don't you.

Was writing this as Seanchai posted his intervening post.

[buttslinger]

Hey cigar, would you feel safe escorting Trish to your local Redneck Bar???

[mildcigar_2001]

I'm just currious before I receive the death penalty, which rule was broken by this post???

I should know better by this point in my life, but the thin skinnedness of "tolerent" leftists always surprises me.

It is your forum do as you see fit.

[GroobySteven]

I'm just currious before I receive the death penalty, which rule was broken by this post???


Same as the other ones you've received warnings about.
Clear cut racist remarks and the promotion of same in your ongoing "inferiority of other cultures" posts as well as just being irritating.

[trish]

Trish XYes mildcigar goebbels (you DO help spread progaganda that inspires nitwits to kill people based on their race and culture).


Where do you think you would be safer walking down the street, in the heart of nice Republican Orange County or in the deep blue heart of South Central LA? ... I'm assuming that you would leave your hoodie at home if you visit Orange County).Trayvon was SHOT TO DEATH IN A GATED COMMUNITY. Even you admit that in order to feel safe from a threat of death in Orange County I have to dress appropriately. So no, I don't feel safer within any republican stronghold. Hell, how could I when they want to rape women with transvaginal ultrasound probes!!

On your second point, "self-obvious" is not a word. I assume you meant "self-evident." It's an old concept that goes at least as far back as axiomatic geometry of the ancient Greeks. They thought the axioms and postulates of Euclidean geometry were self-evident. They were wrong. Mathematicians no longer recognize "self-evidence" as a path to truth or an allowable form of argumentation. As to the spreading lies that have already been exposed and debunked...that's also frowned upon by those who value truth and reasoned argument. You're a BIG FUCKING FAIL! Oh, and "skinnedness"...it's not a word. Sheesh...what a low-brow!!

[mildcigar_2001]

Final warning on this sort of shit.


Yes mildcigar goebbels (you DO help spread progaganda that inspires nitwits to kill people based on their race and culture).

Trayvon was SHOT TO DEATH IN A GATED COMMUNITY. Even you admit that in order to feel safe from a threat of death in Orange County I have to dress appropriately. So no, I don't feel safer within any republican stronghold. Hell, how could I when they want to rape women with transvaginal ultrasound probes!!

On your second point, "self-obvious" is not a word. I assume you meant "self-evident." It's an old concept that goes at least as far back as axiomatic geometry of the ancient Greeks. They thought the axioms and postulates of Euclidean geometry were self-evident. They were wrong. Mathematicians no longer recognize "self-evidence" as a path to truth or an allowable form of argumentation. As to the spreading lies that have already been exposed and debunked...that's also frowned upon by those who value truth and reasoned argument. You're a BIG FUCKING FAIL! Oh, and "skinnedness"...it's not a word. Sheesh...what a low-brow!!

My lowbrow gramatics aside, I notice you failed to comment and/or defend the proposed legislation. It seems like there is a big problem with their culture when they propose legislation endorsing necrophlia.

Usually when my opponent in an argument starts becoming hysterical, I can tell I'm winning the argument.
"they want to rape women with transvaginal ultrasound probes!!" WTF???

I think since you don't have a vagina that you would be safe.

It is interesting that you quote the ancient greeks, but try to win you arguments with emotion and name calling rather than logic. If someone gets the better of me in a discussion I'll admit it; I won't resort to childish, emotional name calling.

[Prospero]

Mild Cigar - nothing in Islam endorses necrophilia. This is a racist libel and a lie - invented by someone and then reported in low brow tabloid newspapers. I pointed out to you that a clear and learned refutation of this has been posted in another thread and yet you persist on publishing this racist filth. What is with you? It's nothing to do with liberal thin skins buddy. it is to do with inflammatory lies by people like you. There is much that is arguably unnacceptable about some Islamic beleifs and practices - which run counter to our Western values - and intelligent people can debate this. But to repeatedly publish something which is just untrue. It is akin to the blood libel about the Jews. Or do you believe that too?

[trish]

My lowbrow gramatics aside, I notice you failed to comment and/or defend the proposed legislation. You simply missed it in your hurry to respond. I'll repeat it: As to the spreading lies that have already been exposed and debunked...that's also frowned upon by those who value truth and reasoned argument. Islam does not preach necrophilia. Please notice that pointing out lies is a logical rebuttal and is not the same as name-calling. Moreover, I pointed out that simply claiming a proposition to be "self-evident" is not a valid form of argument. Attempting to make you aware of this new development in logic (dating back to the ancient Greek geometers) is not being hysterical, in fact it is quite logical. Pointing where you FAIL is simply what a responsible rebuttal to your post required.

[mildcigar_2001]

Mild Cigar - nothing in Islam endorses necrophilia. This is a racist libel and a lie - invented by someone and then reported in low brow tabloid newspapers. I pointed out to you that a clear and learned refutation of this has been posted in another thread and yet you persist on publishing this racist filth. What is with you? It's nothing to do with liberal thin skins buddy. it is to do with inflammatory lies by people like you. There is much that is arguably unnacceptable about some Islamic beleifs and practices - which run counter to our Western values - and intelligent people can debate this. But to repeatedly publish something which is just untrue. It is akin to the blood libel about the Jews. Or do you believe that too?


Please feel free comment on the merits of the practice of female circumcision (the practice seems rampent within some Muslim communities). I suppose this is also just propaganda from us infidels.

[giovanni_hotel]

Female circumcision is a cultural practice, not a religious one.

[SammiValentine]

thank god for hung angels so i can brush up on my knowledge of the ottoman empire, WW1, necrophilia and the american political system.

[trish]

Hungangels, the one stop internet forum that meets ALL your needs. (All clients are advised sit down and brace themselves before viewing or reading; and please wash your before and after masturbating.)

[Stavros]

Returning to the point of this thread, I think an issue that should be discussed is what happens to a person when they spend a year in solitary confinement. The potential psychological damage, particularly when someone has not been found guilty at trial and sentenced accordingly, could be long-lasting, even permanent, but I don't know how tough mentally CeCe is. CeCe cannot be the first transgendered person to enter the system, it surprises me that they haven't got a policy on it, or do most transgendered people who enter the system go into the men's section?

[mildcigar_2001]

Returning to the point of this thread, I think an issue that should be discussed is what happens to a person when they spend a year in solitary confinement. The potential psychological damage, particularly when someone has not been found guilty at trial and sentenced accordingly, could be long-lasting, even permanent, but I don't know how tough mentally CeCe is. CeCe cannot be the first transgendered person to enter the system, it surprises me that they haven't got a policy on it, or do most transgendered people who enter the system go into the men's section?


Unless the jail has more than one TS at a time, I not sure how solitary confinement is avoided. Assuming that the TS in question still has her male genitalia then housing the TS with the women prisioners doesn't work. Also placing her in with the guys would be like throwing chum in the water and stirring up the Sharks. I will reiterate that her defense counsel must be putting in continuance motions or her 6th ammendment right to a speedy trial will have been violated.

[mildcigar_2001]

Female circumcision is a cultural practice, not a religious one.

It is indeed strange then that all the victims of this barbaric practice seem to be all young Muslim girls.

[trish]

Strange too that the vast majority of Muslim women are never subjected to the practice. There are Christians, who on religious principle, refuse to let doctors give their children medical care, blood transfusions etc., even when their children's lives are on the line. Should we therefore condemn Christianity?

[trish]

Moreover, the practice of female circumcision predates Christianity and therefore Islam by at least 4.5 centuries, demonstrating that not all victims' families subscribed Islam.

[Helvis2012]

Moreover, the practice of female circumcision predates Christianity and therefore Islam by at least 4.5 centuries, demonstrating that not all victims' families subscribed Islam.


The only thing you seem to prove is how dangerous a very little knowledge can be. Well done.

[trish]

It does show that not all practitioners of female circumcision were Islamic and not all Muslims were practitioners of female circumcision. What's dangerous is to make assumptions about all practitioners of a religion, judge them as if those assumptions were true when in fact they are not, and then encourage others to make the same unfounded judgements.

[robertlouis]

It is indeed strange then that all the victims of this barbaric practice seem to be all young Muslim girls.


It is also rife in many parts of Africa in tribal areas where it has existed since time immemorial, and certainly predates the arrival of Islam. Indeed, the practice is present in many areas where Islam has never taken hold. Regardless of its origins, it is a hideous and entirely unnecessary practice which is condemned by all sides.

You appear to have a pretty fixed and narrow agenda which allows you to continue to proclaim lies and disproved allegations despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Racist or cretin? your choice.

[yodajazz]

The paralells/opposites between the Cece McDonald and George Zimmerman cases are amazing. Black victim, no police record, vs White victim with a history of violence, and a swatiska tatto. White killer, presumed innocent, and not charged, Black killer immediately jailed, and held for a year without trial. Zimmerman raises 200k, Black unable to post bond. The list goes on, and is quite extensive, in my view.

[Prospero]

Thanks Robertlous, Trish and Stavros. But scientific evidence, facts etc seem scarcely to matter when the agenda is breeding race or cultural hate (i guess it is wrong to call the poison being spread about islam racism - hence my ref to cultural hate). If he's not yet been banned I suspect Mlid Cigar will now respond with some equally baleful questions about the veiling of women under islam.
Let me pre-empt that one. It is NOT demanded in the Koran - where the practice is encouraged for the wife of the prophet because of the numbers of strangers visiting his house. But it was also a common practice through the region well before the establishment of slam among Christian women and other faiths. Today adherents of the Wahabi and Salafi threads in islam do, indeed, demand it for women. But many other Muslims view this extreme and fundamentalist form of the faith to be aberrant. And it is also interesting that many Muslim women choose to adopt the veil where it is NOT at all demanded by their local communities in the UK for instance. i have met and talk with young Muslim women who adopt the veil out of a sense of resistance to the growing prejudice against their religion.) For them it is a feminist position!

So Mild Cigar why aren't you bleating about how Ultra orthodox Hassidic Jews demand that their women shave their heads and wear wigs.

As to clitorectomy - as Robert Louis correctly points out.
1. it is a disgusting practice
2. It was widespread well before islam was born.
And as Giovanni says - it is a cultural not a religious practice.

Finally let me remind you that I am not a Muslim nor an advocate of it. But am 100 per cent against the sort of hate and prejudice directed at it. As I am against directed at jews, Christians, Hindus, Mormons et et - while feeling we all have a right to dicsuss and debate and decry elements of any of these faiths when they seek to challenge or impact upon the generally accepted norms of our civilisational values. Hence my dislike of the anti-abortionists (and disgust when they turn to murder, bombings etc) my hatred and disgust for the murderous strands of Islam manifested by al Queda and the Taliban etc etc of widow burning and the caste system under Hinduism etc etc

I find many of the notions and ideas to which even non-radical believers adhere to be wrong-headed. But for millions it is and has been a great source of solace and an important force for social cohesiveness. In societies where the governments are corrupt or inept Mosques have and do offer great and important sources of social help to parts of the community. And Islam's historic contribution to world civilisation massively outweighs those elements which presently run counter to Western enlightenment values.

[GroobySteven]

How do you feel about the Welsh?

[Prospero]

Duh... don't much lke Tom Jones old records but he is okay now he is singing the blues. love Dylan Thomas and Richard Burton and Cerys matthews. And all those castles.

And one of my favourite songs is about the old mining valleys.
Help me Rhondda.

[SammiValentine]

North Wales > South Wales.

[Prospero]

Ahh - North Wales is better. I love Harlech and Rhuddlan and all of those great medieval places

[GroobySteven]

And one of my favourite songs is about the old mining valleys.
Help me Rhondda.

Booooooooooooooo!

[Stavros]

If he's not yet been banned I suspect Mlid Cigar will now respond with some equally baleful questions about the veiling of women under islam.
Let me pre-empt that one. It is NOT demanded in the Koran - where the practice is encouraged for the wife of the prophet because of the numbers of strangers visiting his house. But it was also a common practice through the region well before the establishment of slam among Christian women and other faiths. Today adherents of the Wahabi and Salafi threads in islam do, indeed, demand it for women. But many other Muslims view this extreme and fundamentalist form of the faith to be aberrant. And it is also interesting that many Muslim women choose to adopt the veil where it is NOT at all demanded by their local communities in the UK for instance. i have met and talk with young Muslim women who adopt the veil out of a sense of resistance to the growing prejudice against their religion.) For them it is a feminist position!.

A few points:
1) Frantz Fanon discusses veiling as a form of political resistance, in either The Wretched of the Earth of his collected essays.

2) the precise word Hijab has numerous meanings depending on the context: it can be screen in contemporary English as well as Veil. Also, in the sections on women in the Qu'ran it is evident that many people were naked or semi-naked in 7thc Arabia and that Islam introduced a more modest -if expensive- form of dress, rather in the way that Christian missionaries in Africa and the South Pacific persuaded women and men to cover their bodies. For an interesting discussion on this, the Moroccan feminist, Fatema Mernissi's books, The Veil and the Male Elite; Beyond the Veil are worth investigating.

3) Veiling in my opinion, historically, is more class oriented than religious: I once attended a talk on Russian history in which it was stated that the physician called to attend the Tsarina of Russia, the wife of a 16thc Tsar whose name I cannot recall, discovered that she was veiled and could not remove it because he was not a fit person to look upon her, he was also not allowed to examine her physically. In the Middle East, certainly after the First World War, eyewitness accounts show that the veil was mostly worn by wealthy women -in Syria, Jordan it was Circassians mostly- who could afford to buy clothes. Women would cover their face with their gowns, but in the case of Bedouin women, this is a practical aspect of living in a desert environment. What we have seen in recent years is the opposite of what once happened: veiling is now more closley associated with rural people and the urban poor, or as a political statement, as Prospero has noted, and as is discussed by Leila Ahmad here:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/25/veil_of_ignorance

[Stavros]

Unless the jail has more than one TS at a time, I not sure how solitary confinement is avoided. Assuming that the TS in question still has her male genitalia then housing the TS with the women prisioners doesn't work. Also placing her in with the guys would be like throwing chum in the water and stirring up the Sharks. I will reiterate that her defense counsel must be putting in continuance motions or her 6th ammendment right to a speedy trial will have been violated.

You haven't really answered the question but I don't know how one finds out what the prison policy on gender is; the more important factor is the impact of solitary confinement on someone who has not been found guilty of a crime: it seems she did indeed kill that man, in which case she could be suffering extreme forms of guilt unmediated by any other mitigating presence to calm her, rationalise her feeelings. This could have a decisive impact on her testimony in court when the case comes to trial. It seems to me as if she has been locked up and forgotten about at a time when she most needed care and some kind of counselling.

[mildcigar_2001]

Strange too that the vast majority of Muslim women are never subjected to the practice. There are Christians, who on religious principle, refuse to let doctors give their children medical care, blood transfusions etc., even when their children's lives are on the line. Should we therefore condemn Christianity?


By all means condemn the Christian Scientists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. To put the record straight I don’t think I implied that all Muslims practice FGM, but the overwhelming majority of FGM are committed by Muslims.

It is interesting why the supposed Liberals of this forum feel the need to try to defend the bizarre cultural/quasi-religious practices of Islam. I can think of almost no culture that would be more unfriendly to the TS community than Islam.

In some of the gay pride parades in the States some of the gay/TS community dresses up as nuns. Just suppose what would happen if you attempted something similar (only anti-Muslim in flavor) in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc.??? Can anyone say beheading?

Your arguments would be like the Jews in the 1930s saying the Nazis are not all that bad, and in the same breath decrying the warmongering of the British.

[Prospero]

So with lucidity Mild Cigar makes it clear that hates Muslims. Pure and simple. Muslims = Nazis do they? I rather think if historical parallels are to be employed that they are the Jews (and I can anticipate your response here - that the jews didn't have a substantial coterie of terrorists in their ranks. True. But they were reviled as a group just as you clearly revile Muslims)
Zyklon B your gas of choice?

[Stavros]

I can think of almost no culture that would be more unfriendly to the TS community than Islam.


You may or may not know thugs of various size and political persuasion have broken up attempts to mount LGBT marches in Russia; that transexuals are in stealth across southern Europe, in China, and that sub-Saharan Africa is hostile to any form of open display of non-heterosexuality, be it Muslim, Christian, Pagan or whatever: in fact the Christian Church in Africa is one of the most extreme conservative segments of the worldwide community.

Liberal attitudes to social behaviour have advanced enormously in my lifetime in Europe, North America, Australasia and parts of South America, but these advances have actually been minor compared to the world as a whole, where social attitudes to gender and sexual diversity are still rigid and wholly different now from what we accept.

Here is Tony Blair squirming in his pants while sitting next to Nobel Peace Prize winner Ellen Johnson Sirleaf who dismisses homosexuality and has no intention of changing the law in Liberia:
Liberia's president Ellen Johnson Sirleaf and Tony Blair discuss anti-gay law - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut5V-HN2GGk)

Surely this cannot be the Lynton Blair who was fined £50 for importuning another man in a public toilet in Westminster in 1974? Surely not the Oxford university guitarist known as Miranda to his band-mates...??

[robertlouis]

You may or may not know thugs of various size and political persuasion have broken up attempts to mount LGBT marches in Russia; that transexuals are in stealth across southern Europe, in China, and that sub-Saharan Africa is hostile to any form of open display of non-heterosexuality, be it Muslim, Christian, Pagan or whatever: in fact the Christian Church in Africa is one of the most extreme conservative segments of the worldwide community.

Liberal attitudes to social behaviour have advanced enormously in my lifetime in Europe, North America, Australasia and parts of South America, but these advances have actually been minor compared to the world as a whole, where social attitudes to gender and sexual diversity are still rigid and wholly different now from what we accept.

Here is Tony Blair squirming in his pants while sitting next to Nobel Peace Prize winner Ellen Johnson Sirleaf who dismisses homosexuality and has no intention of changing the law in Liberia:
Liberia's president Ellen Johnson Sirleaf and Tony Blair discuss anti-gay law - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut5V-HN2GGk)

Surely this cannot be the Lynton Blair who was fined £50 for importuning another man in a public toilet in Westminster in 1974? Surely not the Oxford university guitarist known as Miranda to his band-mates...??

And only in the US is there a major party in the developed west which actively promotes anti-homosexual activity. Just thought I'd throw that in....

[Prospero]

And yes - the Conservative Party in the UK, for all it's other faults, is actually pretty enlightened about Gay issues.

[nonnonnon]

the difference between this and zimmerman is the lack of castle/syg laws. Nor would they apply to a barfight where a man lost his life over a Buddhist tattoo

[trish]

the difference between this and zimmerman is the lack of castle/syg laws. Nor would they apply to a barfight where a man lost his life over a Buddhist tattoo
With or without the castle law...either way the victim is screwed. What do the two victims have in common? Ethnicity? How do the two incidents differ? In the incident to which SYG applies the perp was initially excused without a second thought; if it weren't for the public outcry Zimmerman wouldn't even be standing before a judge.

[mildcigar_2001]

So with lucidity Mild Cigar makes it clear that hates Muslims. Pure and simple. Muslims = Nazis do they?

Yes in some cases they do.


Iran's president has repeated a remark from the former ayatollah that Israel should be "wiped out from the map,"

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-10-26/world/ahmadinejad_1_israel-jerusalem-day-islamic-world?_s=PM:WORLD

Obviously Iran does not comprise all Muslim sentiment, but I hear very little condimnation from brother Muslims.

[Stavros]

Yes in some cases they do.


Iran's president has repeated a remark from the former ayatollah that Israel should be "wiped out from the map,"

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-10-26/world/ahmadinejad_1_israel-jerusalem-day-islamic-world?_s=PM:WORLD

Obviously Iran does not comprise all Muslim sentiment, but I hear very little condimnation from brother Muslims.

The uncomfortable reality of the Middle East is that it has been home to ex-Nazis, Arab nazi sympathisers -and Jewish fascists -Avraham Stern, a supporter of Mussolini who once offered a trade-off with Hitler (send us Jews and we will fight the British on your behalf) being one stellar example and a man whose campaigns of murder did not spare Jews or Arabs or the British in Palestine in the 1940s. You name it, the Middle East has it, just like the USA, and they don't need to apologise for an idiot like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

But the record shows his remark that 'Israel should be wiped out from the map' is a hoax as you would have known if you had bothered to do any research on it -even Israel's Dan Meridor has admitted Ahmadinejad never even used the word map in his speech and anyway was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini. And where is the largest Jewish community in the Middle East outside Israel?....er...in Iran.

You can read about the hoax here if you want to:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/260107offthemap.htm

http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/04/19/now-they-tell-us-iran-didnt-actually-threaten-to-wipe-israel-off-the-map/

[yodajazz]

the difference between this and zimmerman is the lack of castle/syg laws. Nor would they apply to a barfight where a man lost his life over a Buddhist tattoo

I assume you were referring to the original usbject of the post. The swastica was not discovered until after the deceased was mortally wounded. The incident was reportedly started, when the deceased and three other friends verbally harassed Ms McDonald and other friends as they were passing on the street. It escalated, when McDonald was cut in the face, by the deceased person's friend. When McDonald approached the police, she was covered in blood, my assumption was was that the blood was from her own injury. Perhaps this version is not true. But we can only judge from the facts as were are given.

In the media, it has been inferred that Trayvonn was a 'thug', becuase he had some gold teeth, or the language from his Twitter account. I have not heard of any link between gold teeth and violent behavior. But the deceased in the Mcdonald incident was reported to have a history of violence. In the case of McDonald, the system wanted to immediately send her thru the formal legal process.

[trish]

When asked whether "Muslims=Nazis," mildcigar confirms
Yes in some cases they do. . This is the most ridiculously stupid argument yet. Mildcigar wishes to establish the moral superiority of Christianity over Islam with the claim: some "Muslims are Nazis;" yet when Nazi's really did walk the Earth they were allmost all Christian?! So here's the argument:

Premise 1. Some Muslim's are Nazis.
Premise 2. Nazi's are morally inferior.
Premise 3. Almost all Nazis were (and are...after all you gotta count the white supremacists) Christian.
Conclusion: Islam is morally inferior to Christianity.

If there's a valid rule of inference that leads from these premises to the conclusion above, please inform us of it name, how it works and provide a reputable reference.

[robertlouis]

And one of my favourite songs is about the old mining valleys.
Help me Rhondda.

Oh Merthyr-ful God. No more.

[mildcigar_2001]

When asked whether "Muslims=Nazis," mildcigar confirms . This is the most ridiculously stupid argument yet. Mildcigar wishes to establish the moral superiority of Christianity over Islam with the claim: some "Muslims are Nazis;" yet when Nazi's really did walk the Earth they were allmost all Christian?! So here's the argument:

It is a shame that your knowledge of History does not match your knowledge of rhetoric.

It is not a definitive source, but for the purposes of this forum it will do (I'm tired and have to be up at at 5 a.m., so no in deepth research (from the Wikipedia article):

Nazi Attitudes towards Christianity

In a confidential message to the Gauleiter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauleiter) on June 9, 1941, Martin Bormann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann), had declared that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable." He also declared that the Churches influence in the leadership of the people "must absolutely and finally be broken." Bormann believed Nazism was based on a "scientific" world-view, and was completely incompatible with Christianity.

Bormann stated:
When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest.


Other than being a contrarian, I doubt if you really believe Islam is superior to Christianity. I will cheerfully admit that the world has more than its fair share of F’d up Christians, but by almost any measure Islam is a religion stuck in the dark ages. Try exposing your contrarian opinions as a woman in Muslim country and see want happens (a beating or worse). I realize that perhaps because of your TS status you may feel marginalized from mainstream culture, but as bad as western civilization is Islam (particularly the Wahabi sect) is much worse. It makes no real sense just because you dislike me or my arguments, to willfully delude yourself as to the merits of Islam.

Granted I do not know you personally, but a good 50% of the time you make reasonable sense, but the other 50% of the time you veer out of your own lane and plunge headlong into oncoming traffic. You seem to see everything through a racial prism.

I know you believe I am a racist for criticizing other cultures, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am more than willing to criticize other cultures (but that springs from a general belief that western culture is superior). I don’t care what race a man is, but I do care how he acts. Hence in my criticism of Obama, I think him a knave because of his actions not because of his skin color. If it makes you feel any better I have a lower opinion of Clinton than Obama.

[giovanni_hotel]

Mildcigar!!!
Really man??

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/10/19/3255e09e-09b0-4b81-bbdf-bb5b92ef7789.gif

[trish]

A confidential letter espousing the aberrant (hence confidential) religious views of one Nazi goes no way toward undermining premise three. Almost all Nazis were Christians and almost all living Nazis are Christian. This of course doesn't justify a general condemnation of Christianity and by the same token the symmetric argument affords no general condemnation of Islam. Claiming Islam is morally inferior to Christianity because there are Muslims who believe the same reprehensible things some Christians believe is patently absurd.

You are right in guessing I do not hold Islam is morally superior to Christianity. Frankly I find the question to be ill formulated and a dangerous waste of time. Why do you find it so important to convince others whom you don't even know of the general moral inferiority of Islam? What does that even mean? What is your measure of moral superiority? What is your personal motivation for pushing this point on those who resist it? Do you hope to improve our general morality or just have us validate yours for you? Are you sure you aren't motivated by unfounded preconceptions?

[robertlouis]

It is a shame that your knowledge of History does not match your knowledge of rhetoric.

It is not a definitive source, but for the purposes of this forum it will do (I'm tired and have to be up at at 5 a.m., so no in deepth research (from the Wikipedia article):

Nazi Attitudes towards Christianity

In a confidential message to the Gauleiter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauleiter) on June 9, 1941, Martin Bormann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann), had declared that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable." He also declared that the Churches influence in the leadership of the people "must absolutely and finally be broken." Bormann believed Nazism was based on a "scientific" world-view, and was completely incompatible with Christianity.

Bormann stated:
When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest.


Other than being a contrarian, I doubt if you really believe Islam is superior to Christianity. I will cheerfully admit that the world has more than its fair share of F’d up Christians, but by almost any measure Islam is a religion stuck in the dark ages. Try exposing your contrarian opinions as a woman in Muslim country and see want happens (a beating or worse). I realize that perhaps because of your TS status you may feel marginalized from mainstream culture, but as bad as western civilization is Islam (particularly the Wahabi sect) is much worse. It makes no real sense just because you dislike me or my arguments, to willfully delude yourself as to the merits of Islam.

Granted I do not know you personally, but a good 50% of the time you make reasonable sense, but the other 50% of the time you veer out of your own lane and plunge headlong into oncoming traffic. You seem to see everything through a racial prism.

I know you believe I am a racist for criticizing other cultures, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am more than willing to criticize other cultures (but that springs from a general belief that western culture is superior). I don’t care what race a man is, but I do care how he acts. Hence in my criticism of Obama, I think him a knave because of his actions not because of his skin color. If it makes you feel any better I have a lower opinion of Clinton than Obama.




I'm grateful that you've opened up to some extent on your beliefs, genuinely.

Two questions if I may:

1) When you state that you have a "general belief that western culture is superior", what objective criteria, historical or other, are you employing;

and

2) While you've shared your relative views on the last two Democratic presidents, what are your opinions of the Bushes, Dubya and his father, Reagan, and going further back, Nixon?

Thanks.

[Stavros]

It is a shame that your knowledge of History does not match your knowledge of rhetoric.

Other than being a contrarian, I doubt if you really believe Islam is superior to Christianity. I will cheerfully admit that the world has more than its fair share of F’d up Christians, but by almost any measure Islam is a religion stuck in the dark ages.


Right now we should be more concerned with the fate of CeCe who is in solitary confinement on a charge that could see her locked up for most of the rest of her life; hi-jacking the thread to make ill-informed comments about other issues seems to me to detract from the gravity of her case.

[Prospero]

:iagree::iagree:
Right now we should be more concerned with the fate of CeCe who is in solitary confinement on a charge that could see her locked up for most of the rest of her life; hi-jacking the thread to make ill-informed comments about other issues seems to me to detract from the gravity of her case.

[runningdownthatdream]

It is a shame that your knowledge of History does not match your knowledge of rhetoric.

It is not a definitive source, but for the purposes of this forum it will do (I'm tired and have to be up at at 5 a.m., so no in deepth research (from the Wikipedia article):

Nazi Attitudes towards Christianity

In a confidential message to the Gauleiter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauleiter) on June 9, 1941, Martin Bormann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann), had declared that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable." He also declared that the Churches influence in the leadership of the people "must absolutely and finally be broken." Bormann believed Nazism was based on a "scientific" world-view, and was completely incompatible with Christianity.

Bormann stated:
When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest.


Other than being a contrarian, I doubt if you really believe Islam is superior to Christianity. I will cheerfully admit that the world has more than its fair share of F’d up Christians, but by almost any measure Islam is a religion stuck in the dark ages. Try exposing your contrarian opinions as a woman in Muslim country and see want happens (a beating or worse). I realize that perhaps because of your TS status you may feel marginalized from mainstream culture, but as bad as western civilization is Islam (particularly the Wahabi sect) is much worse. It makes no real sense just because you dislike me or my arguments, to willfully delude yourself as to the merits of Islam.

Granted I do not know you personally, but a good 50% of the time you make reasonable sense, but the other 50% of the time you veer out of your own lane and plunge headlong into oncoming traffic. You seem to see everything through a racial prism.

I know you believe I am a racist for criticizing other cultures, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am more than willing to criticize other cultures (but that springs from a general belief that western culture is superior). I don’t care what race a man is, but I do care how he acts. Hence in my criticism of Obama, I think him a knave because of his actions not because of his skin color. If it makes you feel any better I have a lower opinion of Clinton than Obama.




You are partially right about the Nazis and Christianity - and that's really just it with you: you take some facts and extrapolate to meet your own bigoted ideas.

While the high-level Nazis (Hitler, Bormann, Himmler, et al) were indeed more influenced by German mysticism the rank and file WERE Christians. And the senior Nazis from aristocratic backgrounds definitely did not ALL buy into that mysticism and DID identify as Christians. Ergo the majority of the atrocities perpetrated by Germans during the war were perpetrated by people who clearly identified themselves as Christians. Unless of course you're one of those apologists who believe the good German people were just all used by Hitler and a handful of degenerates?

Keep reading and learning and hopefully one day you will be more than just a guy bigot on the internet who learns history via Wikipedia.

[mildcigar_2001]

Do you hope to improve our general morality...?

Yes, now you are catching on. Is it working?


In all seriousness my posts are in response to the "all cultures are equal" meme currently in vogue. Granted my limited efforts are no doubt wasted on particular venue (so it is more likely an exercise in killing time).

I do think it is valuable to get people to think outside of the Liberal echo chamber. For example the Treyvon thread which sort of encouraged my recent posts is a prime example of starting out with a generally untrue premise (that a black 17 year old was shot for being black in white suburbia). The liberal media (such as NBC news who doctored the 911 recording to suit the narrative) added 1 + 1 and got five (because we know that only white people live in gated communities and that if a black person got shot it must be racism).

There was a very good Reuters story from a few days ago that really dug into the background on the incident and the neighborhood):

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-25/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmermanbre83o18h-20120425_1_pit-bull-pepper-spray-big-boi

Come to find out it was a mixed neighborhood and that Zimmerman has African ancestry himself. These are things that the news organizations should have looked into weeks ago, but they don't want any "facts" to confuse the narrative.

I don't know if Treyvon or Zimmerman were good or bad people, and I won't reargue the facts again. Because my point is whatever the ultimate outcome of the case, we know that the original bent of the story (black kid shot for being in white suburbia) is false. My general recollection is that the gated community is roughly 20% black and 40% Hispanic and 40% white. This is a far cry from an all white neighborhood and then someone coming outside in Klan robes and shooting the kid. I think it is important especially in view of Sharpton et al’s track record, that these type of matter be examined closely.

[trish]

For example the Treyvon thread which sort of encouraged my recent posts is a prime example of starting out with a generally untrue premise...That's your premise, at least the one imaginary premise you choose to attack. The premise with which liberals are operating is that Treyvon was stalked by a vigilante for exhibiting intangible "suspicious" behavior, was shot and killed by the vigilante and the vigilante was inexplicably let go without so much as an arrest, a hearing or confiscation of his weapon; until the general public expressed their outrage.


(because we know that only white people live in gated communities and that if a black person got shot it must be racism)(posted with sarcasm). Yes and we also know Muslims are morally inferior and if a women anywhere suffered a clitoridectomy it's because Islam demands it.


I don't know if Treyvon or Zimmerman were good or bad people...Neither do I, but I do know that justice was not going be carried out in that case until the media and the general public got involved.

The morally inferior/superior dichotomy of cultures is just a diversion and so far an ill-formed concept

[mildcigar_2001]

That's your premise, at least the one imaginary premise you choose to attack.


While the premise was imaginary, it is what was being put forth on this forum and in the Liberal press.

Go back and look at the original title of the thread in question:

"17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia."

A similar meme to to when all those Duke lacrosse players "raped" the black stripper.

[trish]

Wrong again. Go back and read. The premise with which liberals are operating is that Treyvon was stalked by a vigilante for exhibiting intangible "suspicious" behavior, was shot and killed by the vigilante and the vigilante was inexplicably let go without so much as an arrest, a hearing or confiscation of his weapon; until the general public expressed their outrage.

[fred41]

The OP title (of the other thread) was a little off...but so is the title of this thread...
if people want to get technical.
(the other threads title was wrong depending how you read it...and this one is definitely wrong )

[Stavros]

In all seriousness my posts are in response to the "all cultures are equal" meme currently in vogue.

'All cultures are equal' is meaningless; the 'problem' you really want to pursue is is the basis of the social and economic policies in a 'multi-cultural' society that appear to some people to produce biased outcomes which favour 'minorities'. Central and local government agencies producing leaflets in 25 different languages, offering translation services for 'minorities' with their housing queries. You don't spend long with this stuff before someone says that Muslim immigrants get more privileges that 'indigenous British white people' and so on; and I don't doubt this happens in the USA where you are not allowed to offend the Apaches. But if 'all cultures are NOT equal' in the USA of all places, you would surely be denying identifiable groups in the USA their constitutional right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness...?

CeCe in her cell is, I would suggest, not at this time focused on the [Multi-]cultural meaning of her imprisonment. Perhaps you could stay within the confines of the thread.

[Paladin]

I cannot believe the ignorance of posters like Paladin (I won't even begin to address the poison that is OMK). So the invasion of Iraq, spearheaded by Bush and the Neocons (and shamefully aided and abetted by the Blair administration here) had nothing to do with the mess that is the modern Middle East. Nor did the CIA and US inspired interventions and interference in many other parts of the region for the past 50 years. Nor does the US support for Saudi Arabia.Nor the presence of massive US bases in Bahrain and Qatar. Nor unswerving US support for Israel. And while we are at it - Paladin - (to borrow a leaf from your view of who is qualified to comment on things) let's not have YOU pontificate on the Middle East since I suspect you've not been there (please correct me if I'm wrong) and are not from there either.

Well that shows what you know, or rather don't know.... read up before spouting off.

[Paladin]

How do you feel about the Welsh?

I like the Welsh Guards. and the Irish Guards, Grenadier Guards & Coldstream Guards.

[robertlouis]

I like the Welsh Guards. and the Irish Guards, Grenadier Guards & Coldstream Guards.

What have the Scots Guards done to offend you?

[yodajazz]

Yes, now you are catching on. Is it working?


In all seriousness my posts are in response to the "all cultures are equal" meme currently in vogue. Granted my limited efforts are no doubt wasted on particular venue (so it is more likely an exercise in killing time).

I do think it is valuable to get people to think outside of the Liberal echo chamber...

It is true that all cultures are different, from each other in some aspect. But declaring one to be better than another leads to thinking errors. And its the same with comparing people, with the exception of the more extreme cases. Whatever criteria you measure, there is always going to be a hidden trade-off. People escape to the suburbs for a better lives. However, many suburban youth, are adrift, as their successfully employed parents are not available. So you have drug use and other risky behaviors, like the inner city youth. Suburbs are generally better at covering up, issues from the media. Its good for business, to keep up appearances.

I think the major fault in trying place culture and people above one another, is that we lose on the fact that all people and culture has some instrinsic value, and they are all capable of teaching us something, if we care to look and listen. So called primitive Native American cultures, had a more enlightened view, of what we call transgenders. One term for them was "two spirited people". Some primitive cultures feel, these types of people have sprecial spiritual gifts, and look to them for wisdom. So ask a person like Cece McDonald, who reportedly, was just walking down the street, and ended up, verbally harrassed, and cut in the face, how superior this culture is.

By the way, one major book, that warns against, judging cultures and people, is the Bible. Jesus's story about the "good Samaritan" taught that exact example. The context of the story, was that the Samaritans, were looked down upon, by those from Jesus's community. In the story, the victim in need, was even passed up by a Rabbi. Rabbis were considered to be the cream of the crop, of the Hebrew community. And the point was,the Rabbi, who had educated knowledge, did not translate that into action to help, an injured stranger. But one who was considered ignorant, ( A Samaritan), was still capable of doing a very good deed.

Mildcigar_2001, I thank your for expressing your opinions, when you are not being insulting. However, in this case, I side with Jesus's view.

[yodajazz]

....

I don't know if Treyvon or Zimmerman were good or bad people, and I won't reargue the facts again. Because my point is whatever the ultimate outcome of the case, we know that the original bent of the story (black kid shot for being in white suburbia) is false. My general recollection is that the gated community is roughly 20% black and 40% Hispanic and 40% white. This is a far cry from an all white neighborhood and then someone coming outside in Klan robes and shooting the kid. I think it is important especially in view of Sharpton et al’s track record, that these type of matter be examined closely.

When the facts come out, I say it will prove that race was an important factor. I still wonder how many of the previous calls he reportedly made on other occaisions were regarding Blacks? It makes no difference if Zimmerman has Black blood or not, or if other blacks live in the gated community. Martin was in the community visiting someone in his family, I believe, so would be assumed that other Blacks live there. The Klan is not the only avenue for racism, in America.

Take the case of this story. I suppose you might not see it directly related to race. A woman in St Louis, went to the emergency room complaining about a pain in her ankle. The doctors examined her and then released her, but she refused to leave. The police were called, the medical personell cleared her, and she was taken to jail. In her cell she cried out in pain, collapsed and died. It was reported that it from a blood clot, which came from her ankle injury. Just hearing the story, it comes to me that she must have been Black, and it turns out she was. Of course there were other issues. She did have some mental health, and housing issues. Yes, injustices happen to all races. There just seem to be more, happeining to Black Americans. The effects of racism are forces that change into other forms, which then recycle, to new effects. An example of this, is denying ex-felons the right to vote for life, when a disportional amount of Blacks are in the justice system. In Florida, in 2000 where the US presidency was decided by less than 200 votes, apx 1 million Black potential voters were denied the right to vote. I thought the purpose of prison, was to punish and control offenders. So inronically, the 3/5 designation for counting Blacks in the census, defined in 1789, is comparable to the percentage of Blacks allowed to vote, in Florida and other states, over 200 years later. Racism, like other negative forces, just seem to change form, unless they are purposely rooted out. Things are better now, than the past. But injustice still rears its ugly head, too often, for people to be complacent.

[mildcigar_2001]

When the facts come out, I say it will prove that race was an important factor. I still wonder how many of the previous calls he reportedly made on other occaisions were regarding Blacks? ....

An example of this, is denying ex-felons the right to vote for life, when a disportional amount of Blacks are in the justice system.Florida



The other occasions the suspicious persons identified by Zimmerman were black. I will refer you again to the Reuters article where a black neighbor of Zimmerman's basically states that the robberies in the neighborhood where being committed by black young men.

As to depriving felons of their right to vote, this is a rule of long standing and applies equally to all races. Sorry thieves, rapists and murderers do not have my sympathy. The voting rights suspensions are for people committing felonies not misdemeanors. Keep out of trouble and you have your right to vote. The sad truth is that a distortional amount of blacks are in prison because they commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. This seems to be culture in action. And I'm sure I'll be called a racist for mentioning to troublesome fact.

However I want to point out (by the rules of political correctness) that I can't be a racist because I'm a member of a minority group (Cherokee Indian). According to family lore I'm 1/32 Cherokee Indian and hence a member of a protected minority group. As we all know minority group members can not be racists. Below a picture of my new hero.

[Stavros]

As to depriving felons of their right to vote, this is a rule of long standing and applies equally to all races. Sorry thieves, rapists and murderers do not have my sympathy. The voting rights suspensions are for people committing felonies not misdemeanors. Keep out of trouble and you have your right to vote. The sad truth is that a distortional amount of blacks are in prison because they commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. This seems to be culture in action. And I'm sure I'll be called a racist for mentioning to troublesome fact.


I think that at the moment something like 5 million Americans cannot vote because of the 'Felony Disenfranchisement' rule -the point is, if someone has both 'done the crime and served the time', during which time they lost the right to vote, why should they not be re-endowed with equal rights once released from prison? Does it apply to 'felons' who were released on appeal years after their original trial, because in fact they were innocent?

Your disingenuous comment on the high proportion of Black Americans in prison presumably also refers to CeCe who is black and in solitary confinement -do the facts known so far in her case matter at all?

This thread is about her, not you.

[trish]

The other occasions the suspicious persons identified by Zimmerman were black. I will refer you to the fact that none of persons identified by Zimmerman as being "suspicious" were found to be robbers.

[mildcigar_2001]

...refers to CeCe who is black and in solitary confinement -do the facts known so far in her case matter at all?

This thread is about her, not you.

Thank you for clarifying that point. If you are worried about CeCe then do something beyond reading or writing on this thread. Raise money for her bail. A sad failing among liberals is viewing feeling sorry for someone the same as doing something for that person. If you really think she is innocent then start raising money for her defense (I'm thinking a lonely thread on a porn forum will not do her much good). Otherwise shut up about what is or is not supposed to be written on this thread.

I’m sick of liberal blowhards who think "talking" is the same as doing something. Personally I’m worried about the ballooning national debt, so I joined a Tea Party group, and give money to fiscally conservative candidates. If I think someone has gotten a raw deal (I have in the distant past) done pro bono work.

Sorry she is in solitary confinement, but were else do you propose to keep her if she is a TS??? Should they arrest additional TS(s) so she may have cellmates? As I stated in the above thread, if she is in pre-trial confinement after one year then her defense counsel (with her approval) is requesting continuances.

[mildcigar_2001]

I will refer you to the fact that none of persons identified by Zimmerman as being "suspicious" were found to be robbers.

I am going from memory, but my recollection is that the prevous times Zimmerman called 911, the suspects disappeard prior to the cops arriving and hence Zimmerman's frustration (something to the effect that these punks always get away or words to that effect).

[robertlouis]

I am going from memory, but my recollection is that the prevous times Zimmerman called 911, the suspects disappeard prior to the cops arriving and hence Zimmerman's frustration (something to the effect that these punks always get away or words to that effect).

So when he saw Trayvon Martin he decided that this one wasn't going to get away? That's the clear implication behind your words.

[Stavros]

Thank you for clarifying that point. If you are worried about CeCe then do something beyond reading or writing on this thread. Raise money for her bail. A sad failing among liberals is viewing feeling sorry for someone the same as doing something for that person. If you really think she is innocent then start raising money for her defense (I'm thinking a lonely thread on a porn forum will not do her much good). Otherwise shut up about what is or is not supposed to be written on this thread.

I’m sick of liberal blowhards who think "talking" is the same as doing something. Personally I’m worried about the ballooning national debt, so I joined a Tea Party group, and give money to fiscally conservative candidates. If I think someone has gotten a raw deal (I have in the distant past) done pro bono work.

Sorry she is in solitary confinement, but were else do you propose to keep her if she is a TS??? Should they arrest additional TS(s) so she may have cellmates? As I stated in the above thread, if she is in pre-trial confinement after one year then her defense counsel (with her approval) is requesting continuances.

I think that even in the USA, people are innocent until proven guilty, somehow I get the impression you are not bothered either way. You don't know what I have or have not done in her defence -or for that matter, what I am capable of doing- but the mere fact that her situation is being debated is itself a form of action.

If you want to write about the national debt and the tea party there have been threads in the Politics & Religion where it has been and probably will continue to be discussed, often by people who share your views: you prefer to hi-jack these threads for your own publicity, so I don't intend to shut up, because human rights belong to everyone, I even think they are worth shouting about. The issue of solitary confinement seems to confuse you, its not a privilege; and it can be psychologically damaging; and why is she even in gaol anyway? Is Zimmerman in gaol?

[robertlouis]

I think that even in the USA, people are innocent until proven guilty, somehow I get the impression you are not bothered either way. You don't know what I have or have not done in her defence -or for that matter, what I am capable of doing- but the mere fact that her situation is being debated is itself a form of action.

If you want to write about the national debt and the tea party there have been threads in the Politics & Religion where it has been and probably will continue to be discussed, often by people who share your views: you prefer to hi-jack these threads for your own publicity, so I don't intend to shut up, because human rights belong to everyone, I even think they are worth shouting about. The issue of solitary confinement seems to confuse you, its not a privilege; and it can be psychologically damaging; and why is she even in gaol anyway? Is Zimmerman in gaol?

She's black, she's transsexual, two reasons why she's in jail and Zimmerman isn't. Nobody important enough cares.

However, at one level I agree with mildcigar - yep, you read it correctly!

The collective outrage here on Cece's behalf is just so much wasted hot air unless there's a constructive effort to make a positive change to the situation to help the girl. Talk and internet outrage are cheap and easy.

[mildcigar_2001]

[QUOTE=Stavros;1134521]You don't know what I have or have not done in her defence -or for that matter, what I am capable of doing- but the mere fact that her situation is being debated is itself a form of action.QUOTE]


I think the above post underscores may point about liberals mistaking blather for action.

I have no idea if CeCe is guilty or innocent. I quite simply don't know enough of the facts about the case. However it is my suspicion that if she has been in jail a year pending trial that the facts don't weigh heavily in her favor. As a general rule (and granted there are noted exceptions) most prosecutors don't bring meritless cases.

I worked as a prosecutor and defense counsel in the armed forces for several years around the time of the first gulf war, and we were out for justice (We didn't care if the accused was black, brown or green). If there was a poor case then charges were not brought. I know it is a popular myth based on Perry Mason and LA Law type shows, but the vast majority of persons accused of crimes are guilty. I've worked both sides of the street on criminal cases and generally things are fairly cut and dried (often times the accused has been very helpful to the prosecution and provides a detailed confession):dancing:.

[fred41]

For what it's worth...it seems she made bail at some point ...but a judge deemed she violated it when something happened to her leg monitor (which may have been an electronic error) and she tested positive for THC...
...so she was out for a couple of months of that time.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=Stavros;1134521]You don't know what I have or have not done in her defence -or for that matter, what I am capable of doing- but the mere fact that her situation is being debated is itself a form of action.QUOTE]

I think the above post underscores may point about liberals mistaking blather for action.
I have no idea if CeCe is guilty or innocent. I quite simply don't know enough of the facts about the case. However it is my suspicion that if she has been in jail a year pending trial that the facts don't weigh heavily in her favor. As a general rule (and granted there are noted exceptions) most prosecutors don't bring meritless cases.
.

1) I am not a liberal, and its comical that you decide to fit me into the slot that suits your argument;
2) Since it is a fact that you do not know what I have done in the past to help people and what my position is today (and that's all there is to say on it because this isn't a thread about me), you cannot in fact dismiss my vocality as 'blather' rather than action. Reasoned argument is also a tool which freedom can deploy in its combat with prejudice;
3) the USA has a woeful history of trials in which the accused was nowhere near the scene of the crime, or was a victim of mistaken identity, etc -'meritless' cases are thus more common than you are willing to admit;
4) Your personal history does not give you an edge over anyone else on this forum; members of HA know perfectly well the sort of scrapes transexuals get into of their own volition, and also of the way in which some intolerant members of the public will vent their hate on transgendered people, sometimes with disastrous consequences.
5) The core issue is that CeCe has a right to a fair trial, as does Zimmerman, she certainly deserves better than your assumption of guilt with no mitigating circumstances; I return to the vexing issue of solitary confinement, because in some cases it can be psychologically damaging, and could affect the way she presents herself in court.

My thanks to Fred for the details on the accused and bail; one only hopes that justice of some quality is delivered in this case.

[mildcigar_2001]

[QUOTE=Stavros;...she certainly deserves better than your assumption of guilt with no mitigating circumstances; I return to the vexing issue of solitary confinement, because in some cases it can be psychologically damaging, and could affect the way she presents herself in court.[/quote]

I assume in the midst of your tired and generally untrue handwringing on the criminal justice system that this portion of my post confused you:
"I have no idea if CeCe is guilty or innocent. I quite simply don't know enough of the facts about the case."

If CeCe did not want to be in confinement then perhaps she should have complied with the terms of her bail.

It in a way always amazed me (in my prior practice), that when the Judge would set out a fairly simple set of rules such as "don't use marijuana or wear an electronic monitoring device" that the alleged criminals can't follow these simple rules and end up back in jail.

[Stavros]

Your belief that people who live what others call dysfunctional lives will automatically obey all the instructions that law enforcement/courts hand down could be charming if it were not so naive. As to your ability to edit your own statements, this is what you said:

I have no idea if CeCe is guilty or innocent. I quite simply don't know enough of the facts about the case. However it is my suspicion that if she has been in jail a year pending trial that the facts don't weigh heavily in her favor. As a general rule (and granted there are noted exceptions) most prosecutors don't bring meritless cases.

Yes, but.

Anyway until such time as this case comes to court, it might be best not to extend the debate on it.

[InHouston]

Lets not forget she has no criminal record and was attend college

I've researched this story. She does have a criminal record for writing hot checks.

[InHouston]

Come on people. I’m empathetic to CeCe here, but she screwed up big time. I’m white and live in Texas, and we have the Castle Doctrine law, and I would have been arrested for this and charged with murder too. If you stop buying into all the bs people post online, you can clearly see why she got herself in the legal mess she’s in.

A woman in the group threw the bottle at CeCe, striking and lacerating her face. Okay, that woman committed assault against CeCe. Then CeCe runs up and stabs Dean in the chest? CeCe retaliated against Dean and is why she’s in the trouble she is. You can’t fly off the handle and stab someone for offending you. If she had stabbed the woman who threw the bottle at her, then it could be argued as self-defense and the case dropped. That’s why her lawyer is settling for a plea deal from the prosecutor, because CeCe flipped out and stabbed Dean for running his mouth and for starting the altercation, and her lawyer can’t defend it. If he could, he would and the charges would have been dropped or never filed in the first place.

If this kind of behavior is allowed by law, then it sets a precedent for others to the same. Hell you’ll have people stabbing and shooting each other in mass. Example: You’re a Wall Street employee going to work. An OWS demonstrator starts yelling, “Criminal! You should be arrested!” and blah blah blah. The Wall Street employee engages in the confrontation. Another OWS demonstrator hits him with a bottle. The Wall Street guy stabs and kills the guy who started the confrontation. That’s not self-defense. That is a retaliatory attack and murder.

But in fairness to CeCe, good riddens to that white-trash bastard Dean. He got himself killed for being a racist homophobic dumbass, and he asked for it. All CeCe had to do was run and call the police and she wouldn’t be sitting in jail. Or, if CeCe lived here in Texas, which many transgendered people do, she could have legally drew a firearm on them if they started approaching her and they would have all shut up and politely backed away.

And for that matter, CeCe could have gotten herself killed by running in there and swatting the hornet’s nest like she did. When she attacked Dean with those scissors, had she missed … I can only imagine what Dean would have done to her. And you know what? They would have let him go for self-defense. This is all around wrong, and just another example of both parties not using their heads.

That’s why she’s in the mess she’s in.

I’ll hand it to CeCe though. She whooped his ass proper, and Dean can push daisies for all I care for acting like a complete asshole to her. Talking shit and got his ass handed to him by a tranny. I bet his racist homophobic ass never pondered that ending to his pathetic life.

That does not make it legal though. And now CeCe fucked up her record for the rest of her life. She should have just backed off and called the police. She’s lucky they reduced it to manslaughter.

[InHouston]

[QUOTE=Stavros;1134521]You don't know what I have or have not done in her defence -or for that matter, what I am capable of doing- but the mere fact that her situation is being debated is itself a form of action.QUOTE]


I think the above post underscores may point about liberals mistaking blather for action.

I have no idea if CeCe is guilty or innocent. I quite simply don't know enough of the facts about the case. However it is my suspicion that if she has been in jail a year pending trial that the facts don't weigh heavily in her favor. As a general rule (and granted there are noted exceptions) most prosecutors don't bring meritless cases.

I worked as a prosecutor and defense counsel in the armed forces for several years around the time of the first gulf war, and we were out for justice (We didn't care if the accused was black, brown or green). If there was a poor case then charges were not brought. I know it is a popular myth based on Perry Mason and LA Law type shows, but the vast majority of persons accused of crimes are guilty. I've worked both sides of the street on criminal cases and generally things are fairly cut and dried (often times the accused has been very helpful to the prosecution and provides a detailed confession):dancing:.

This is absolutely true! Often when the accussed is innocent the court would have found no probable cause to continue the case and it's dropped. The prosecutor won't pursue it, because he doesn't want the loss on his record. When they find probable cause? Tis tis ... the accussed usually starts opening up and telling what really happened, because they know they're in deep shit and want out with the least amount of punishment they can get. She's lucky she got a plea deal, and she got that because she admitted to what she did, and you can bet your left arm her lawyer told her to not bullshit the judge and to start being honest before the judge slams that gavel down. The court took her cooperation into consideration and reduced it to manslaughter. It's all pretty simple to me what happened. She got pissed off, screwed up, and killed someone for talking shit to her. Maybe next time, she'll just walk away like she should have.

[GroobySteven]

Well written article here:

http://www.xojane.com/issues/cece-mcdonald-violence-against-transgender-women-of-color

[jamesedwards]

The first circumcision that is known is from the walls of Egypt and this was before Christianity or Jews came on the scene. It has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Males yes, females no, the Quran doesn't state anywhere in it circumcision on a woman, NOT ONE PLACE!!! The Bible also not one place!!!

[jamesedwards]

Egyptian boys being circumcised
from the tomb of the Vizier Ankhmahor and his wife Mereruka
Sixth Dynasty (Old Kingdom, ca. 2300 BC). Relief on the wall of a tomb at Sakkara, Egyptian circumcision rite predates Abraham. Females should not get circumcised. It was meant for the men only. In Egypt they used the flint stone to take off the fore skin in circumcision rites.


http://i46.tinypic.com/os7nu8.jpg

[Stavros]

Well written article here:

http://www.xojane.com/issues/cece-mcdonald-violence-against-transgender-women-of-color

Thanks for the link, a powerfully written piece, particularly this chilling statistic:

Transgender women of color are at the highest risk of hate-based violence of any group, unsurprising for a group of people surviving under three oppressive yokes -- racism, sexism, and transphobia -- all at the same time. According to a 2011 report (http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/07/70_percent_of_anti-lgbt_murder_victims_are_people_of_color.html), 70 percent of LGBT murder victims were people of color. 44 percent were specifically women of color.

[jamesedwards]

Ain't that some ish. I don't get why they title African american people as "PEOPLE OF COLOR" it's a stupid title, we are dark due to Melanin and we are different complexions not colors, Caucasian people have more colors to them than we do. This is crazy !!!


Thanks for the link, a powerfully written piece, particularly this chilling statistic:

Transgender women of color are at the highest risk of hate-based violence of any group, unsurprising for a group of people surviving under three oppressive yokes -- racism, sexism, and transphobia -- all at the same time. According to a 2011 report (http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/07/70_percent_of_anti-lgbt_murder_victims_are_people_of_color.html), 70 percent of LGBT murder victims were people of color. 44 percent were specifically women of color.

[buttslinger]

I think People of Color are all non-whites.

[TempestTS]

CeCe's story was the front page Cover story of this weeks City Pages... the injustice is so plain to see I felt sick to my stomach by the time I finished reading the story

http://www.citypages.com/2012-05-09/news/cece-mcdonald-murder-trial/

[SunshyneMonroe]

so sad ...

[InHouston]

CeCe's story was the front page Cover story of this weeks City Pages... the injustice is so plain to see I felt sick to my stomach by the time I finished reading the story

http://www.citypages.com/2012-05-09/news/cece-mcdonald-murder-trial/


CeCe shouldn't have tripped out, and lunged and stabbed someone with a pair of scissors who didn't throw the bottle at her in the first place. That was stupid of her to do that, and is why she's in the hot water she is. Hell, they'll charge you with murder here in Texas for that too.

[TempestTS]

CeCe shouldn't have tripped out, and lunged and stabbed someone with a pair of scissors who didn't throw the bottle at her in the first place. That was stupid of her to do that, and is why she's in the hot water she is. Hell, they'll charge you with murder here in Texas for that too.

This is going to be a long reply because I live in Minneapolis and have also been attacked by a drunk who nearly killed me.

Had she as well as her friends just been accosted and attacked YES

Was he with the group that attacked her YES

Was CeCe Tripping out... NO but the person she struck clearly was with traces of Meth, Coke, and varoius other substances in his blood, your telling me that puts you in a stable frame of mind???

Was he continuing to threaten and move towards her in an aggressive fashion YES (boxing stance motions while moving closer and verbal)

Did she have reason to fear for her personal and physical safety YES.

Did she freak out and run away - YES a short distance to a safer location and then flagged down a police car herself... not exactly the actions of someone who's intent was to kill.

Could it have been handled differently YES and of course it might be CeCe who might be dead in that case... nobody can say because thats the way it went down.

Murder is premeditated a planned taking of life done in advance, manslaughter is not premeditated but not a justifiable use of force and is intended to do others harm, self defense is striking out scared out of your wits that if you dont you will suffer bodily harm ( or more bodily harm )

self defense ... Next...


Would she be charged for murder in Texas... yeah probably... sorry but Texas isnt exactly known for lenient laws or for progressive understanding of racial and sexual orientation, not attempting to bash Texas here just speaking historically, things can and do change.

Sorry but this issue hits home for me as I live in Minneapolis and while I dont know CeCe I know the type of hostility that can materialize as a TS just walking down the street going by a bar with people hanging out front... It can get scary to the point where you have no idea whats going to happen next so its really hard to make the right call after being hit in the head with a bottle or brick and somebody is moving toward you acting like hes going into a middle weight bout and you still have blood streaming down your face from what happened two minutes ago...

chances are at that moment NOBODY is going to make their most clear headed decisions, you would react any way you think that will keep you from getting hurt or killed

I speak from experience, I was attacked by a drunken male who proceeded to smash a phone into my temple, then broke a bar stool over my shoulder and proceeded to beat me with a leg from the busted bar stool. I had a knife and pulled it out but couldnt bring myself to use it, he went into an angry rant standing over me and I made a mad lunge for the door and scrambled down the hall jumping into a (fortunately open) elevator and slamming the down button before the drunk could catch up staggering after me.

I suffered a fractured skull, fractured shoulder blade, multiple fractures on both forearms from when I covered my head to avoid getting hit in the head by the bar stool leg. The doctor was astonished it wasnt worse from the pounding I took and said I did the right thing covering up because if my head took the beating my arms took I would be dead. Now remember I was armed but didnt do anything, I just got lucky that the elevator door was wide open when I made a break to get out of there or he would have caught me and continued.

I called the cops, waited over half an hour scared shitless in a parking lot waiting for them to arrive before a friend of mine got there and drove me home, cops still hadnt shown, finally the next morning the came to my house and got my story and went and picked up the guy who was still drunk and admitted everything about the pounding he gave the "faggot" spent the day in jail and was released the next day pending trial. The states attorney didnt know if we could get a good conviction because he recanted his admission of guilt and they felt that they couldnt count on witnesses to come forward for me and asked if I would be Ok with them offering him a plea bargain instead of a full trial. I said NO till the day of the trial and when I could tell that the states attorney wasnt putting any effort into the case I finally said yes just so the bastard wouldnt get off scott free just because the court might see me as some kind of freak.

The result he got 24 months on probation and had to pay my medical bills. Not exactly justice in my book, but its all I could get.

now do you get it???

And dont tell me I did the right thing by not using the knife and just running away... I couldnt bring myself to risk taking a life but the only thing that saved me when I didnt save myself was pure luck in the form of an open elevator door.

[giovanni_hotel]

CeCe shouldn't have tripped out, and lunged and stabbed someone with a pair of scissors who didn't throw the bottle at her in the first place. That was stupid of her to do that, and is why she's in the hot water she is. Hell, they'll charge you with murder here in Texas for that too.

I don't know the law on this, but if a group of strangers is verbally assaulting you and someone in that mob throws a bottle, are you required by law to defend yourself ONLY against the person who threw the bottle??

BTW, compare CeCe's photo after the assault to what Zimmerman looked like.

http://media.citypages.com/cece-mcdonald-murder-trial.7842021.40.jpg

She was attacked. It's not up for 'interpretation'.

[TempestTS]

DEFENSE, SELF-DEFENSE

A defense to certain criminal charges involving force (e.g. murder).
Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.
Force likely to cause death or great bodily harm is justified in self-defense only if a person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.


She was being threatened and that person was moving towards her in a "boxing" type stance... How much more clear does it have to be?


You are quite correct she was attacked, there is no interpreting this, she was under threat of great bodily harm and had actually just suffered bodily harm.

[robertlouis]

This is going to be a long reply because I live in Minneapolis and have also been attacked by a drunk who nearly killed me.

Had she as well as her friends just been accosted and attacked YES

Was he with the group that attacked her YES

Was CeCe Tripping out... NO but the person she struck clearly was with traces of Meth, Coke, and varoius other substances in his blood, your telling me that puts you in a stable frame of mind???

Was he continuing to threaten and move towards her in an aggressive fashion YES (boxing stance motions while moving closer and verbal)

Did she have reason to fear for her personal and physical safety YES.

Did she freak out and run away - YES a short distance to a safer location and then flagged down a police car herself... not exactly the actions of someone who's intent was to kill.

Could it have been handled differently YES and of course it might be CeCe who might be dead in that case... nobody can say because thats the way it went down.

Murder is premeditated a planned taking of life done in advance, manslaughter is not premeditated but not a justifiable use of force and is intended to do others harm, self defense is striking out scared out of your wits that if you dont you will suffer bodily harm ( or more bodily harm )

self defense ... Next...


Would she be charged for murder in Texas... yeah probably... sorry but Texas isnt exactly known for lenient laws or for progressive understanding of racial and sexual orientation, not attempting to bash Texas here just speaking historically, things can and do change.

Sorry but this issue hits home for me as I live in Minneapolis and while I dont know CeCe I know the type of hostility that can materialize as a TS just walking down the street going by a bar with people hanging out front... It can get scary to the point where you have no idea whats going to happen next so its really hard to make the right call after being hit in the head with a bottle or brick and somebody is moving toward you acting like hes going into a middle weight bout and you still have blood streaming down your face from what happened two minutes ago...

chances are at that moment NOBODY is going to make their most clear headed decisions, you would react any way you think that will keep you from getting hurt or killed

I speak from experience, I was attacked by a drunken male who proceeded to smash a phone into my temple, then broke a bar stool over my shoulder and proceeded to beat me with a leg from the busted bar stool. I had a knife and pulled it out but couldnt bring myself to use it, he went into an angry rant standing over me and I made a mad lunge for the door and scrambled down the hall jumping into a (fortunately open) elevator and slamming the down button before the drunk could catch up staggering after me.

I suffered a fractured skull, fractured shoulder blade, multiple fractures on both forearms from when I covered my head to avoid getting hit in the head by the bar stool leg. The doctor was astonished it wasnt worse from the pounding I took and said I did the right thing covering up because if my head took the beating my arms took I would be dead. Now remember I was armed but didnt do anything, I just got lucky that the elevator door was wide open when I made a break to get out of there or he would have caught me and continued.

I called the cops, waited over half an hour scared shitless in a parking lot waiting for them to arrive before a friend of mine got there and drove me home, cops still hadnt shown, finally the next morning the came to my house and got my story and went and picked up the guy who was still drunk and admitted everything about the pounding he gave the "faggot" spent the day in jail and was released the next day pending trial. The states attorney didnt know if we could get a good conviction because he recanted his admission of guilt and they felt that they couldnt count on witnesses to come forward for me and asked if I would be Ok with them offering him a plea bargain instead of a full trial. I said NO till the day of the trial and when I could tell that the states attorney wasnt putting any effort into the case I finally said yes just so the bastard wouldnt get off scott free just because the court might see me as some kind of freak.

The result he got 24 months on probation and had to pay my medical bills. Not exactly justice in my book, but its all I could get.

now do you get it???

And dont tell me I did the right thing by not using the knife and just running away... I couldnt bring myself to risk taking a life but the only thing that saved me when I didnt save myself was pure luck in the form of an open elevator door.

That is a stunning post, Tempest, and with any justice the last word on this matter. Glad you made a full recovery, but what a commentary on the society we live in and its values. Thank you.